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Speaker 1: When we talk about how people get out of these

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Speaker 1: groups and how they heal. That's part of the deep processing,

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Speaker 1: realizing that your actions are always imperfect and you're doing

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Speaker 1: the best you can with the information that you have,

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Speaker 1: and it's not some reflection of some broken part inside

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Speaker 1: of you. But boy, where we taught that.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 2: Jess Costebetto and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Clia Gray. Our series explores the story of Robert Chin,

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Speaker 3: the Eli Basha kind of Church, and seven M films.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited about this week's guest. You know, we've had

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Speaker 2: a lot of conversations so far and they've been super

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Speaker 2: enlightening and really powerful, but thought it would be great

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Speaker 2: to get a little more context on the psychology level

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Speaker 2: and what attracts people to these high controlled groups and

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Speaker 2: the challenges that people face when they get out of that.

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Speaker 2: And also for allies and family members, what is that

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Speaker 2: experience like and what's maybe some the advice that we

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Speaker 2: can get.

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Speaker 3: And also even just the general public, because there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of people that are tuned into this story

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Speaker 3: that it might help them understand a little bit better.

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Speaker 3: Because I've seen that a lot in the comments of like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I just don't get it. And so I think having

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Speaker 3: someone that can really speak to more of like the

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Speaker 3: social the psychological aspect of it to give more like

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Speaker 3: understanding to it, and even for me myself and my

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Speaker 3: own healing journey, I have my own like question. So

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited for this.

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Speaker 2: So today we're speaking with doctor Quincy Gideon, doctor of

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Speaker 2: psychology and therapists who specializes in religious trauma. She also

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Speaker 2: aid survivors of high control groups to regain and rebuild

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Speaker 2: their lives.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's get started with our conversation with doctor Gideon.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for doing this with us today. I

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Speaker 2: think initially when we had met, it was because your

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Speaker 2: page was shared with me by one of the parents

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Speaker 2: and they were looking to your page for answers and

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Speaker 2: they had a lot of peace and calming in that.

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Speaker 2: And so, Cleia, we had filmed with doctor Gideon a

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Speaker 2: few sessions because one of the parents wanted to meet

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Speaker 2: with her while she was in town and just had

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Speaker 2: so many questions and doctor Gideon was absolutely amazing for

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Speaker 2: helping kind of walk her through a few of those

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Speaker 2: things and helping participate. But ultimately we weren't able to

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Speaker 2: see that in the documentary, but I thought it was

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Speaker 2: so powerful and it was some of the most powerful

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Speaker 2: stuff that we had filmed, and elements that we really

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Speaker 2: noticed that the parents had kept throughout the entire process.

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Speaker 2: So I just wanted to give a little context for

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Speaker 2: Khalia and everyone else of how we all know each other.

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Speaker 2: But yes, your Instagram page and what you do is

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Speaker 2: absolutely amazing. So thank you again.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you, it's a privilege to be here. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me.

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Speaker 2: So can you share with us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: your own experience in high controlled groups and what motivates

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Speaker 2: you to support others facing similar challenges.

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Speaker 1: Sure. So I grew up in what you would call

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Speaker 1: a fundamental badge church, which you know, they kind of

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Speaker 1: run the gamut. They have a very different presentation depending

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Speaker 1: on where they are in the country, who's leading that congregation,

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Speaker 1: but essentially they take a very hard line look at

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Speaker 1: some of the quote rules that they feel like are

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Speaker 1: very explicit in the Bible, and mostly that results in

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Speaker 1: the oppression of women, and it results in a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of sanctifying and looking towards men to be sort

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Speaker 1: of the ultimate deciders of fate. Deciders of most things

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Speaker 1: that go on in life, including like the family structure

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Speaker 1: and the decisions that are made and who works and

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Speaker 1: where does the money go and how many children are there,

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Speaker 1: Like all of those decisions kind of fall on men.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up in this environment that was chronically

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Speaker 1: telling me that my options in life were to be

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Speaker 1: a wife and a mother or a missionary. They actually

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Speaker 1: gave you that option. You could go off to another

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Speaker 1: country and tell people the quote unquote good news about God,

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Speaker 1: our faith, the religion that I was a part of,

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Speaker 1: And those were my two options. And there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of rules, a lot of rules like the way

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Speaker 1: that you dated, you don't date, you court. It's very

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Speaker 1: dugg Or esque. If anyone has sort of seen how

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Speaker 1: that has played out on TLC for generations now, you

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Speaker 1: see that it's highly restrictive. Everything is sort of fear based,

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Speaker 1: like we're so afraid that, you know, these kids are

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Speaker 1: going to become this or they might behave in this way,

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Speaker 1: and so it's really fear mongering. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: that that goes on in the background. Ultimately, there were

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Speaker 1: kind of some ways in which it impacted my insights,

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Speaker 1: which were you know, a lot of worry and fear

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Speaker 1: about the future. I participated in my own oppression, so

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Speaker 1: I got to a point to where I had sort

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Speaker 1: of internalized the message so much that I didn't actually

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Speaker 1: need to be a part of a repressive group anymore.

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Speaker 1: I could do that all by myself. And then externally,

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Speaker 1: there were some big consequences. I married the man that

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Speaker 1: I was supposed to marry according to this church, and

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Speaker 1: it was horrible. It was abusive in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: He was not straight. I was not aware of that

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Speaker 1: for a very long time, and obviously that ended really

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Speaker 1: terribly and there were a lot of consequences to that.

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Speaker 1: My entire life kind of blew up. And when it

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Speaker 1: blew up, I had to look at kind of what

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Speaker 1: had happened and say, I followed all of the rules

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Speaker 1: and it didn't protect me. I participated in my own

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Speaker 1: repression because I was so afraid of my power as

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Speaker 1: a woman. I was told that that was such a

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Speaker 1: fearful thing. Turns out I still got my heart broken.

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Speaker 1: Turns out my life is still a mess, and everything

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Speaker 1: fell apart. So it was sort of a long line

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Speaker 1: to get to this place, right, But it was a

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Speaker 1: deeply lived experience for me, and I think once I

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Speaker 1: came out of it, I just decided that my entire

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Speaker 1: goal in life is to inoculate people from getting into

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Speaker 1: these groups. I want people to feel like they have

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Speaker 1: space to sort of sit back and observe for a

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Speaker 1: while and see if this is something that they want

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Speaker 1: to join. I want people to have language for how

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Speaker 1: they ask questions and how they show up in these groups,

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Speaker 1: how they challenge the leader, and when they start to

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Speaker 1: feel kind of yucky, they walk away, and they don't

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Speaker 1: feel like that's a reflection of them, It's just a

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Speaker 1: reflection of what they're willing to put up with in

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Speaker 1: this world.

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Speaker 3: Beautifully said, I am in full support of everything that

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Speaker 3: you are doing with your platform and how you're deciding

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Speaker 3: to really support other people that are facing challenges like

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Speaker 3: this and things that I've gone through. What parallels have

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Speaker 3: you seen in your line of work amongst individuals in

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Speaker 3: these high controlled situations.

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Speaker 1: I think the first thing I look for, and I

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Speaker 1: teach people to look for, is fear, because it will

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Speaker 1: be evasive. It's like a terrible plant that you can't

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Speaker 1: get rid of. It just grows everywhere, and it will

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Speaker 1: be fear of what happens in relationships, fear of what

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Speaker 1: happens when you step outside the group, fear of what

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Speaker 1: happens when you challenge a leader, fear of what happens

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Speaker 1: when you think I want to be a little bit

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Speaker 1: separate from this group. Fear of how you spend money,

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Speaker 1: fear of where you spend your time. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that that's the first thing that people can look at,

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Speaker 1: is they can maybe sit back and think, what is

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Speaker 1: the primary thing that I feel most moments of the day.

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Speaker 1: And if in multiple spaces, you're feeling a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of fear, I would start asking questions like, how is

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Speaker 1: this group contributing to that? How are the messages that

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting here and listening to every week contributing to

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Speaker 1: this fear that just keeps growing, Right, because it's fear

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Speaker 1: of this very elusive thing. It'll be fear of hell,

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Speaker 1: It'll be fear of the afterlife, It'll be fear of

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Speaker 1: a god that you don't have interaction with every day. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's this very elusive thing that we're taught to fear.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Doctor Giddy and I know that we had had

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Speaker 2: some conversations during the filming of the documentary, But what

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Speaker 2: were your initial impressions after seeing it and having been

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Speaker 2: a little bit in it and having conversations with people

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Speaker 2: throughout the filming, was there anything that surprised you.

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Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite things to talk about,

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Speaker 1: because I want to make coercive groups and high control

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Speaker 1: groups un sexy in some way because they all follow

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Speaker 1: a script. So truly, when I watch documentaries, I am

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Speaker 1: in the background going yes, yes, say more of that

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Speaker 1: because that's helpful. So I'm like cheering along. But absolutely

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Speaker 1: none of it is surprising. There is nothing that this

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Speaker 1: church has done or the leadership has done, that is

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Speaker 1: outside of the bounds of what is typically done in

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Speaker 1: these circumstances. You can just fill in the blanks and

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Speaker 1: it happens over and over and over again. Which is

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Speaker 1: not to say that the people that get pulled in

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Speaker 1: are somehow uneducated or goal or anything like that. It's

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Speaker 1: just to say that we aren't talking enough about how

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Speaker 1: these groups work in order to inoculate people from getting

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Speaker 1: into them. We still think that each one of them

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Speaker 1: is doing something different and new and nuanced, and it's

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Speaker 1: just not true. They're just all following a script.

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Speaker 3: And that's what was so surprising for me coming out

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Speaker 3: of it was hearing how similar all of these groups are,

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Speaker 3: and that was something that I had heard someone say.

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Speaker 3: It was like, it's like they pass out a pamphlet

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Speaker 3: and all of these leaders just have access to this

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Speaker 3: pamphlet because they're doing the same thing and the same tactics.

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Speaker 3: Are there any common traps that you see for people

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Speaker 3: that end up in these cult like communities?

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Speaker 1: So research sort of shows that there are a couple

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Speaker 1: of things that we like to look for. Number One,

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Speaker 1: there's usually a big life shift that has happened, So

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Speaker 1: there might be a breakup. There might be a divorce,

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Speaker 1: a death, getting laid off, something that causes someone to

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Speaker 1: go out in the world and look for something to

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Speaker 1: I'll either relieve the pain that they're in or make

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Speaker 1: sense of the pain. Not everyone is in a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of pain in those moments, but they might be

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Speaker 1: more open to like, why do things like this happen?

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Speaker 1: Why did I even want to get married? And then

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Speaker 1: you walk into a space where there's a leader that says,

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Speaker 1: I have all the answers for you. Let me break

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Speaker 1: it down for you. And they're usually pretty concise about

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Speaker 1: how they break that down. They usually center themselves on

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Speaker 1: being a part of the solution right to that pain

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Speaker 1: or that upset in some way, and they will also

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Speaker 1: align other things that you've used in the past to cope,

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Speaker 1: and so that starts to set them apart. And when

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Speaker 1: you're in these moments in life, you're going to look

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Speaker 1: at something like that and you're going to say, well,

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Speaker 1: I've tried it every other way, so maybe I'm the problem,

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Speaker 1: and maybe they have a solution that I have not

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Speaker 1: thought of yet. So we're already kind of giving them

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Speaker 1: credence when they haven't earned it, just by them differentiating

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Speaker 1: themselves a little bit from the pack from other things

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Speaker 1: that we've tried in the past. So there's usually some

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Speaker 1: life transition that's happened. The other thing that can go

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Speaker 1: on is that typically folks that get into these groups

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Speaker 1: have a desire to make the world a better place.

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Speaker 1: So that thing that we want in every single human

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Speaker 1: we desire it. We need people to be good people

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Speaker 1: that want the world to be a better place. They

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Speaker 1: are more apt to getting pulled into groups like this

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Speaker 1: because these groups promise that we are making the world

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Speaker 1: a better place, We're saving people from hell, right, So

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Speaker 1: even the character that might be on the main stage,

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Speaker 1: even if that person is not lovable in some way,

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Speaker 1: the overall desire of the group to make the world

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Speaker 1: a better place, to save people from themselves, to make

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Speaker 1: suffering go away, to get people into heaven, like whatever

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Speaker 1: the selling point is. Folks that want the world to

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Speaker 1: be a better place are going to be a little

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Speaker 1: bit more apt to say yes to a group like that.

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Speaker 1: You combine those two things and you've kind of got

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Speaker 1: a recipe for a whole lot of manipulation and coercion.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, that made me a little emotional because I'm just

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Speaker 3: thinking about a lot of my friends that are still there,

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Speaker 3: and you know, those qualities are within them. They do

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Speaker 3: want to make the world a better place. They are

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Speaker 3: very kind hearted. I even think not to speak for everybody,

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Speaker 3: but you know, COVID had just happened, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of the dancers that we were working with now it's

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Speaker 3: like the work that they did, they had to find

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Speaker 3: a whole different way, And so it even has me wondering, like,

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Speaker 3: outside of this situation, there must have been so many

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Speaker 3: other like groups and cult like communities that really capitalized

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Speaker 3: on the disaster that was COVID.

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Speaker 2: That makes so much sense that it would target this

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Speaker 2: life transitional moment. But also it is good people. And

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Speaker 2: that's what's so heartbreaking about it is that you have

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Speaker 2: someone taking advantage of good people and then knowing that

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Speaker 2: those people then have to work through that for however

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Speaker 2: long it takes them when they get out of a

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Speaker 2: sitchuation like that, And that really breaks my heart that

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Speaker 2: someone can see that and take advantage of that. But

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Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if anyone is sort of out there in the

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Speaker 1: world thinking I really do long for a better world,

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Speaker 1: I think that is just an invitation to take a

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Speaker 1: beat before you join anything. I mean, this is part

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Speaker 1: of the inoculation, right, just take a second before you

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Speaker 1: join anything, because it's going to feel so good for

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Speaker 1: you to walk into a group that promises something, and

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Speaker 1: you're more likely to kind of miss some of the

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Speaker 1: red flags. We all would. This is human behavior. This

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Speaker 1: is nothing to be mad at yourself over. It's just

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Speaker 1: something to know that you're going to need to protect

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Speaker 1: yourself a little bit more from.

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Speaker 3: After the break, we continue our conversation with doctor Gideon.

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Speaker 3: This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be

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Speaker 3: right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 2: back to our conversation with doctor Gideon. Doctor Gidden, you've

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Speaker 2: mentioned inoculate a couple times in our conversation. What do

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Speaker 2: you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: So inoculation is just this idea of protecting someone from

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Speaker 1: getting sick in the future. So it initially kind of

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Speaker 1: came about with vaccinations, Right, we like, expose someone to

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Speaker 1: something and it prevents them from getting sick in the future.

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Speaker 1: So when we think about inoculating someone against saying yes

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Speaker 1: to some of these groups, what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: is exposing them to the information that takes the power

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Speaker 1: away from these groups. So when someone you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of shows up to these churches or shows up to

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Speaker 1: these groups and they hear some of the things that

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Speaker 1: we have sort of prepped them with, right, We've said

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Speaker 1: some of this information that that person might sit there

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Speaker 1: and be like, hmm, this is not for me, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much, goodbye, and they're able to walk away

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Speaker 1: from that because they're empowered with the information that we're

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Speaker 1: giving them.

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Speaker 3: I guess got to switch gears a little bit. When

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Speaker 3: we were prepping for this episode. There was a phrase

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Speaker 3: that really stood out to me and I would love

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Speaker 3: to hear a little bit more about it was the

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Speaker 3: concept of cult hopping. There's some individuals that had been

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Speaker 3: in a prior situation that was very similar to the

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Speaker 3: one that we were in. So it's just like kind

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Speaker 3: of this transition from one cult like group to another

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Speaker 3: cult like group. So could you explain a little bit

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Speaker 3: more about that. I'm very intrigued.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. So it kind of goes back to those

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Speaker 1: needs that we were just talking about, that there's a

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Speaker 1: life transition. You're wanting more from the world. You want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, change the world for the better, and this

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Speaker 1: group offers that, and then you decide somewhere along the

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Speaker 1: way that this group is actually unhealthy, but you don't

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Speaker 1: address what is going on that got you into that

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Speaker 1: place in the first place, right into that like vulnerable space.

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Speaker 1: I will also say that cult hopping at the bottom

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Speaker 1: of all of this is that need, right, and these

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Speaker 1: groups kind of function in the same way, but inevitably

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Speaker 1: the next group will be just enough different. Just think

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Speaker 1: about like that maybe terrible relationship pattern you might have

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Speaker 1: been in where you're like, I am so tired of

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Speaker 1: dating people that do X, Y and Z and the

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Speaker 1: next person. It's like they never do X, Y and Z.

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Speaker 1: They do, they just do a different version of it,

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Speaker 1: but it looks different enough that we kind of get

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Speaker 1: pulled in. This is the same pattern that's playing out

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Speaker 1: with just group dynamics rather than relational dynamics. You're not

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Speaker 1: addressing what kind of pulls you to that person, that group,

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Speaker 1: that thing that they're promising, and so you'll get into

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Speaker 1: another group. They'll look different at first, and then you'll

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Speaker 1: discover that they're not different at all.

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Speaker 3: That was really beautifully said. It's the lack of reflection,

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Speaker 3: because that is some of the things that I've heard

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Speaker 3: from some of the members is that refusal almost to reflect.

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Speaker 3: So when half of us had left, there were people

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Speaker 3: that were like, I'm going to die on this hill.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say a little bit about how

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Speaker 1: dangerous self reflection feels. When you're in a group like this,

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Speaker 1: you are taught that self reflection, the feelings that you

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Speaker 1: have going with your gut is actually the most dangerous

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Speaker 1: thing that you can do because it lends to your

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Speaker 1: evil side, right, and that you actually have to listen

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Speaker 1: to the leadership, listen to scripture, listen to anyone outside

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Speaker 1: of yourself to get guidance on what you should do next,

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Speaker 1: because you cannot trust yourself. So self reflection is actually

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Speaker 1: one of those things that these cult like groups will

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Speaker 1: take away from members because it makes them more likely

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Speaker 1: to stay in for a long time. And so if

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Speaker 1: you think about that, not only have they been taught

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Speaker 1: that it's dangerous, but it actually feels quite dangerous because

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Speaker 1: then you're going to have to pay attention to how

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Speaker 1: you participated not only in your own oppression, but also

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Speaker 1: the oppression of others, and that breaks people. That is

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Speaker 1: such a hard thing that we as members of these

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Speaker 1: groups eventually have to come to the understanding that we

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Speaker 1: participated in the pain of other people, by recruiting, by

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Speaker 1: bringing people in, talking them out of leaving, by all

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Speaker 1: of these things, right, we have to pay attention to that.

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Speaker 1: We have to admit that and take accountability. And when

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Speaker 1: you're still in the group and you're still living according

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Speaker 1: to what these groups are telling you to do, like

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Speaker 1: avoid self reflection, this becomes the most dangerous thing that

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Speaker 1: you can do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think with this group too, and CLEI,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you can speak more to this. Is that

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Speaker 2: there's the mentorship program that's in place.

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Speaker 1: And so it's.

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Speaker 2: Interesting too, because your meant to always want to trust

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Speaker 2: your gut and then to have someone say like, don't

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Speaker 2: trust your gut. That's ultimately the things that are negative,

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Speaker 2: and that's the evil that's trying to push you into

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Speaker 2: a different direction. That can be very confusing. And I

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Speaker 2: think Clea you mentioned you know, at some point when

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Speaker 2: people were wanting to leave, some people said, I'm dying

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Speaker 2: on this hill. Do you think that the mentor's involvement

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Speaker 2: in the church had anything to contribute with some of

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Speaker 2: those people staying?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that most of these groups actually have

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Speaker 1: some sort of mentorship program because the leader has given

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Speaker 1: these messages so consistently that people have internalized them, and

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Speaker 1: then they go out and they do the quote dirty

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Speaker 1: work of the leader. Right, So there's kind of this

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Speaker 1: hierarchy that usually develops in groups like this, and the

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Speaker 1: mentorship programs usually function in two different ways. Number one,

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Speaker 1: to disseminate this information so that the leader doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to do all of this work anymore. Right, they can

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Speaker 1: sort of wash their hands and even kind of separate

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Speaker 1: themselves like well, I didn't say that, or I didn't

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Speaker 1: do that. I don't hurt people. I just bring the

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Speaker 1: good message of what God wants me to say, right,

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Speaker 1: so they kind of have a separation. And then secondly

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Speaker 1: it functions as a confessional. So let me break that down.

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Speaker 1: There are ways in which these groups function to participate

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Speaker 1: in mind control and thought reform. This is an idea

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Speaker 1: that was put forward by Robert liften years ago whenever

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Speaker 1: he was researching folks in China in how their thoughts

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Speaker 1: actually changed after years of being in coercive environments. And

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Speaker 1: so we look at some of these factors. There's eight

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Speaker 1: factors and thought control, and one of them is forced

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Speaker 1: confession or confession, and so this can mean a couple

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Speaker 1: of different things. We saw this in other groups like

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Speaker 1: NEXTM and things like that, where people would tell on

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Speaker 1: each other. Right, So you then became really nervous about

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Speaker 1: who was watching you, who was seeing your behavior, Who's

393
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Speaker 1: going to catch me doing something? And it actually worked

394
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Speaker 1: really well for getting people's behavior in line, right, because

395
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Speaker 1: anyone could tell on you. It's not just the leader

396
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Speaker 1: seeing you, it's not just the parent seeing you. Now

397
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Speaker 1: your siblings are telling on you too. But then there's

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Speaker 1: usually also in these groups this sort of idea that

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Speaker 1: you must confess in order to stay good with God.

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Speaker 1: So then members are also confessing to their sins on themselves.

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Speaker 1: So now we have a hierarchy of mentorship where you

402
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Speaker 1: are having to tell your mentor everything for accountability, everything

403
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 1: that you're doing wrong, and they're telling on you to

404
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Speaker 1: the leader, and then you are also participating in the like.

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Speaker 1: But I need this. This is the only way that

406
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Speaker 1: I'm sanctified. This is the only way that I am

407
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Speaker 1: a good person. This is the only way that I

408
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Speaker 1: stay in God's favor because I again can't trust myself.

409
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Speaker 1: My behaviors were always going to bend towards the evil,

410
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Speaker 1: bend towards the bad, and I need this amount of

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Speaker 1: babysitting in order to stay on the right track.

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Speaker 3: Is there any advice that you would have for former

413
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Speaker 3: cult members like myself to help us with social rehabilitation

414
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Speaker 3: things like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the first thing that I recommend for anyone

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Speaker 1: that has gotten out of a group like this is

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Speaker 1: just start with your basic needs. You're going to need money,

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Speaker 1: you're going to need food, you're going to need shelter,

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Speaker 1: and you're going to need safety. Those are the four

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Speaker 1: things that we have to get you before you can

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Speaker 1: do any of the emotional processing. So although when someone

422
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Speaker 1: comes out of these groups they had I've typically been

423
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Speaker 1: taught that this deep emotional processing where you're mad at

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Speaker 1: yourself all of the time, is a part of everyday life.

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Speaker 1: I actually encourage people to not do that for just

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Speaker 1: a short period of time. Let's just get your basic

427
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 1: needs taken care of, safety being the one that we

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Speaker 1: have to focus on. If you don't feel safe in

429
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Speaker 1: the space that you're staying, if you don't feel safe

430
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Speaker 1: like you're not going to have food the next day,

431
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Speaker 1: this emotional processing is going to lead to much worse outcomes.

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Speaker 1: So taking care of those most basic needs is really

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Speaker 1: where we need to start for anyone that's getting out

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Speaker 1: of these groups. And the groups kind of run the gamut, right,

435
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Speaker 1: So a lot of people will like sign over all

436
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Speaker 1: of their financial wealth, right, and they really have nothing.

437
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Speaker 1: Some people have been in these groups for so long,

438
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Speaker 1: and housing was a part of these groups. They don't

439
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,719
Speaker 1: know how to get a lease, they don't even know

440
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: how to prove, you know, that they can pay for it.

441
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: They don't know how to go out there and get

442
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: a job, and so sometimes these things are going to

443
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: take longer than just a days or a few weeks,

444
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: but they really are necessary before any of the deep

445
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: deprogramming happens and the emotional processing happens. Once we have safety,

446
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 1: then we start working on mild reflection. If we don't

447
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: need to go deep yet, you just start with the

448
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: things that are most obvious to you, maybe the things

449
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 1: that have come up the most often while you're trying

450
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: to re establish safety in your life right and getting

451
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: those basic needs. Once you've gotten some of those things

452
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: like Okay, I don't think I trust what he was

453
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: saying anymore. That's the sort of processing I'm talking about,

454
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: Like was he a reliable source of information? No, So

455
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: those things that keep coming up in my head, I

456
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: don't need to trust those right now. I don't need

457
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: to listen to those right now. And then once you

458
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: kind of have a little bit of momentum you're starting

459
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: to feel like you can get through a day without

460
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: feeling like you're going to fall apart, then we can

461
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: start moving through, you know, the things like we really

462
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: got to talk about some thought reform and really to

463
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: talk about all of the different layers of coercion that

464
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: we're happening and we've really got to talk about how

465
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: you might have participated in someone else's oppression and how

466
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: that leaves you feeling. Right now, we can start doing

467
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 1: sort of the deeper work now for people that come

468
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: into my office and work with my therapists that you know,

469
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of specialize in cult recovery and religious trauma. Sometimes

470
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: that can take like a year out before you're actually

471
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: asking yourself the deeper questions because it took six to

472
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: nine months to figure out how to do all of

473
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: this like daily living stuff and to feel calm while

474
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: doing it. Like that's the that's the big part, is

475
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: that we want you to feel like you're not falling

476
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: apart every day.

477
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: Do you have any advice on how to maybe mitigate

478
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: some of the potential triggers for former members after they've

479
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: left a situation like that?

480
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to identify where

481
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: the triggers lie. So for some people, the triggers are

482
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: going to be language, right, Like the words that are

483
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: used are going to be extra triggering and on different levels,

484
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 1: Like maybe using the word cult can feel really triggering

485
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: to someone. Maybe it's using a phrase right, like they

486
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: go out in the world and they hear someone else

487
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: say you really have to die to yourself. Now, that

488
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: was language that was used inside of the group, right

489
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: of Chicina. Okay, that's triggering. We don't need to hear that.

490
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: So you need to be aware that you've got to

491
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: take yourself out of situations where that's going to come up.

492
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: So let me say something that's really hard for people

493
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: that come out of these groups, especially if they're religious

494
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: in nature. You might need to take a break from

495
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: church for a while because the messages that are very

496
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: common in churches in our area, that language is going

497
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: to be used. Now in your group, it was manipulated

498
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: and it was used against you, and so going to

499
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: a different church, even if they are not using it

500
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: to manipulate you, hearing that same phrase used over and

501
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: over and over again is likely going to be triggering.

502
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: It's likely going to kind of set you back from

503
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: all this hard work that you're doing to kind of

504
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: get your life back on track. So you might just

505
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: need to take a break from these sort of things. Now,

506
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: that seems counterintuitive to a lot of people because when

507
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: they get out of these groups, they're thinking, I need community,

508
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: I feel so alone. Yes, you do need community. But

509
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: likely not at another church that's using the same language

510
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: that was used to abuse you.

511
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 3: That makes sense, you know.

512
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: Throughout this process, I had many conversations and I needed

513
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: to be aware of those triggers as well to make

514
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: sure that I was navigating those conversations sensitively. At times,

515
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 2: I could just be you know, asking a question, and

516
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: maybe I brought up the church's name and that was

517
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: a trigger for someone and there's like, please, please don't

518
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 2: say the name of the church, and I had to shift.

519
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: It could have been you know, Robert's name, and yes,

520
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: I can imagine how die to yourself or if someone

521
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: said that, how that could be triggering for a person

522
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: in this particular group.

523
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll just say, like ask. This is one

524
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: of the things that doesn't happen inside of these groups

525
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: is that people are not asked how things are impacting

526
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: them negatively, and they're just told like, you're the problem

527
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: for feeling that way because I said this thing. Now,

528
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: that might be your ego, that might be the evil

529
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: inside of you, that might be a lot of different things,

530
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: but it's never the problem of the person who said

531
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 1: the triggering thing. And so we've got to like switch

532
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: that up and so being a good steward of these

533
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: conversations might be just asking, like I saw you sort

534
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: of flinch there. Did I say something that was painful?

535
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: How could I refer to this group without it being painful?

536
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: Is there something I can say? Can I just say

537
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: the church? Can I just say the group? Is there

538
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: some other way that I can use language that would

539
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: be a little bit more supportive? Most people are dying

540
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: for you to just ask right when you see their pain.

541
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: When we return the conclusion of our conversation with doctor Gideon,

542
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: this is forgive me for I have followed.

543
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's

544
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 3: the conclusion of our conversation with doctor Gideon.

545
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 2: Do you think that there are any actions that allies

546
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: take that can have the adverse effect when supporting former members?

547
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: Depends on the group. So my advice is to take

548
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: imperfect action, ask questions, take a compassionate and curious stance,

549
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: and seeing how your actions are perhaps impacting someone, and

550
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: then be willing to shift. Because I can sit with

551
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: people in my office and I can do the same

552
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: thing that I do most of the time, but this

553
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: particular person has an adverse response to something that I've

554
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: said or done or something, and you just have to

555
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: be curious about that. You have to be compassionate about

556
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: how it comes up, and then be willing to shift

557
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: and knowing that there's no shame in needing to shift

558
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: for the person who needs the shift, for the person

559
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: who's willing to do the shifting. We're all just trying

560
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: to figure this out, but we never want to try

561
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: to get this so perfect that we don't take action.

562
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: Because people are hurting in these groups and they're dying

563
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: for some sort of connection, and we need to be

564
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: willing to kind of step into that and mess up

565
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: a lot along the way and then be willing to

566
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: just sort of like, oh, good to know. I'll change

567
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: that and I'll do something different.

568
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 3: I love that phrase that you use of taking imperfect action,

569
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: because one of the things in Chiquina that was talked

570
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: about a lot was having to be perfect. The only

571
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: people who are allowed in the Kingdom of Christ are perfect.

572
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, we somehow in these groups, we're usually taught that

573
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: imperfection is somehow a reflection of something really broken inside

574
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: of you. And when we talk about how people get

575
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: out of these groups and how they heal that's part

576
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: of the deep processing, realizing that your actions are always

577
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: imperfect and you're doing the best you can with the

578
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: information that you have and it's not some reflection of

579
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: some broken part and you. But boy, were we taught that.

580
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I did.

581
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: Want to just quickly go back to one thing that

582
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: you mentioned along the lines of the hardship of coping

583
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: with the idea that someone could have oppressed another person,

584
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: because that's one thing that I think a lot about

585
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: for people that leave high control groups and how difficult

586
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: that must be because they're still victims of this person

587
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: or this organization. But then at times those people can

588
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: have been sucked in and caught up in situations that

589
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: are oppressing other people. So what's an advice that maybe

590
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 2: you would give that person that might have been removing

591
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: themselves from that situation but might be struggling with that.

592
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: So when someone is inside of these groups and they

593
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: move away from their victimhood and more towards being a perpetrator, right,

594
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: because they're kind of contributing to the ongoing pain of

595
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: other people now because they've internalized the messages so much.

596
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: You know, when we start to look at those sort

597
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: of instances, it can be full of shame and guilt

598
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: and all kinds of lucky feelings. Right, But if we

599
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: can just start to gently have a conversation of I

600
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: can acknowledge that your intention was to do X, Y

601
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: and Z, save this person, bring them back into the fold,

602
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: help them not be in trouble so much with leadership.

603
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: That's oftentimes what some of this mentorship stuff is about. Right, Like,

604
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: you keep getting yelled at and it's really hard for

605
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: me to tolerate. So just do it this way because

606
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: the leader won't be so mad at you. You have

607
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: a wonderful intention, but that's not the impact. Right. This

608
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: is a great parenting lesson for people when your intention

609
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: is to do one thing, but the impact that you

610
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: have on your child is something totally different. And when

611
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: they bring that impact to you, you actually have to say,

612
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: I can see that this has had a really negative

613
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: impact on you, Like this has hurt you, and that

614
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: that in some way does not make you a bad person.

615
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: It just means that you were participating in something as

616
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: best as you could, and you contributed to someone's pain.

617
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: And good luck finding a person out there that has

618
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: not contributed to someone's pain. They don't exist, right, so welcome.

619
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: You're in humanity now. Your cult group told you that

620
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: you should not be a part of humanity, that you

621
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: should separate yourself from humanity, that you should be better

622
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: than the rest of humanity, and it turns out that

623
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: that's not possible. So welcome back into a group of

624
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: us that are doing the best we can with the

625
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: information that we have, and we mess up. Sometimes this

626
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: is like a part of what you're doing. The second

627
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: thing that I will say, and this is oftentimes some

628
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 1: of the work that we do in our clinical setting.

629
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: It's getting used to the idea that being a perpetrator

630
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: does not take away from your victimhood. You are both,

631
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: and you are both at the same time, and that

632
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: there's no way that we can separate those things because

633
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: they were happening simultaneously, and just being allowed to say

634
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: that to yourself and accept that in small doses and

635
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: go back and sort of look at some of your

636
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: behavior and realize, here's my victimhood and and here's where

637
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: I was a perpetrator. That can be very very powerful

638
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: in someone's healing. It is not the first step to healing.

639
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: Please don't start there. Start with taking care of yourself,

640
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: right start with some of this, like do I trust

641
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: what he says from the pull pit anymore? No? Okay,

642
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: then I can stop saying that stuff to myself right

643
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: in my everyday life when I'm sitting at a stoplight

644
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: just trying to get groceries.

645
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 3: Right.

646
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: This is like much more in the later part of processing,

647
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: but saying some of those things to yourself that I

648
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: am both a victim and a perpetrator at the very

649
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: same time can be very helpful and empowering.

650
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: So, doctor Gideon, are there any resources that you think

651
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 3: would be really helpful for people regarding these types of situations?

652
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, I would say exposing yourself to a little

653
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: bit of information as if it comes available to you.

654
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: You can do that very easily online on my page.

655
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: I'm at doctor Quincy on Instagram and on TikTok, and

656
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: you can find me there. I'm sharing information like this

657
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Speaker 1: all of the time, and my hope is to be

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Speaker 1: supportive there and to build community, because I know that

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00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that need to know that

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00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: there's others that have been through this, right, especially when

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00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: they first get out of groups like this. If you're

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00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: wanting to do a little bit more of that deeper processing.

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00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: I have a community for survivors. We have a program

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Speaker 1: that I walk you through over a year's time. It's

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00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: called a Year of Non Magical Thinking for Survivors, and

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00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: this is where folks that are getting out of groups

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00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: like this can come. We establish safety. We talk about

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00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: how to rebuild your life, but I also talk through

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00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: a lot of what we've talked about today, but I

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00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: tell you the science behind it. I walk you through

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00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: how to actually take some of those steps to walk

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00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: away from thought reform, to say no to coercive behavior,

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00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: to spot emotional manipulation from a mile off, and you

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00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: can do that. You can find me at traumastery dot

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00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: com like Monastery, but for trauma get it.

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Speaker 2: Oh what what you did there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So we want to just express our sincere gratitude

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00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 3: for having doctor Gideon on. I know for me it's

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00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: been extremely insightful, a little bit emotional at times because

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Speaker 3: it was really confronting some of those things that I

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00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: have had to experience and seeing loved ones experience as well.

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00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 3: So having this insight I think will really help as

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Speaker 3: we continue on our conversations with this platform.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, she just gave so much enlightening information, and it's

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Speaker 2: just so grateful for her time. So thank you, doctor Gideon.

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Speaker 2: This has been Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll

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Speaker 2: be back next week.

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Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from

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Speaker 3: wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,

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00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: hosted by Me, Khalia Gray, hen Me, Jess Cossabetto Forgive

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00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 3: Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson

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00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 3: and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself,

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Speaker 3: Walmer Valderrama, Leo Klam and Aaron Burlison.

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Speaker 2: At wv Sound.

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Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

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00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

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Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,

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Speaker 3: See you next week,