1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: I never told you production. I heart radio, So for 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: this one, I know we've talked a lot before about 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: band girls and our own bands that we were really 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: into when we were growing up in the music that 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: got us so excited that maybe we got made fun 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: of for liking or mocked for liking Spice Girls in life? 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: Were you made fun of for liking the Spice Girls? 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: I was ashamed of it. I don't know about with him, 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: but I definitely didn't tell people right. Oh, yeah, there 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: were bands that I hid. I went I went so 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: far as to like change the name when I would 13 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: import them in my computer. People wouldn't know. I would 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: try to change it so all you can see the 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: title and you couldn't actually see the band name. Yeah, yes, yeah. 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: And I just remember like listening in like the corner 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: of my room, as if like someone would walk in 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: and they know that I've been listening to Hanson or 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: every time, whatever it was. But I've been thinking about 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: this because lately I want to come back and revisit 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: this topic because I'm not sure. I don't think the 22 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: conversation has changed too much or hasn't like improved too 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: much in terms of like really feeling as a society 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: it's okay to make fun of what teenage girls like. 25 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: But I also think that I'm seeing some instances of 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: recognition of the power of fangirls. And this has been 27 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: on my mind because one of my good friends Rusa, 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: He's gonna go Seebts. Yes, she's so excited. She's going 29 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: with her mom and her sister. Diverse. If you're listening, UM, 30 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: I hope you have a wonderful time. Yeah, I'm excited, 31 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: but like I've really excited for and I feel like 32 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: we've seen the power of that fan base when it 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: comes to politics or social movements, and also kind of 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: an expanding of that fan base because while Marissa is 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: a fan, it's like her mom is a big fan. 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: And then also Savantha and I just saw Turtles and 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: Harry Style at the end alert I think I knew. 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm pretty sure everybody knows. I didn't say 39 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: how are who are why? Um? But yes, he does 40 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: show up at the end, and he's been very vocal 41 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: about like, we should really stop making fun of, um 42 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: these young women and what they like. And then also 43 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: like right now, Taylor Swift just rereleased her Red album 44 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: and you've got Adele's album coming out. I just feel 45 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: like and the power of the Free Brittany movement, which 46 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: were her fans exactly well, partially helped in it. Did 47 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: it helped in her getting released from the conservatorships? Yeah, 48 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: it definitely brought attention to it. And I just think 49 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: that we should come back and talk about this some more, 50 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: because I know that there's still a lot of issues 51 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,119 Speaker 1: around it and people do still feel like what young 52 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: girls like is frivolous a lot, and they feel okay 53 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: making making that kind of assumption. But at the same time, 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm kind of seeing these sorts of things and then 55 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: a real it feels like a cultural like opening of 56 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, this is popular and I like it too, 57 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: and all you like it too, like we're being more 58 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: open about it. I don't know, So it's just been 59 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: something I did see several videos of like older generations 60 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: loving BTS and I mean like grandfathers and fathers in 61 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: their forties and fifties. I like b d s. I'm 62 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: in my forties, So yeah, I think it's coming out. 63 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: I was like, all right, maybe maybe it's cool. Yeah, yeah, 64 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: which has just been fascinating. And as we've said in 65 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: the past episodes, this fan base, THEES fan girls are 66 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: powerful and they often are the ones that are making 67 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: the star. So um, they're very they're they're very supportive 68 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: until you screw them over and then not so much anymore. 69 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: But just something I've been thinking about, so we thought 70 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: we would bring back an episode looking into some of this, 71 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: So please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You 72 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: from how Supports dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 73 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And our semi theme for 74 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: this week on the show has been teen queens because 75 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: in the last podcast we talked about Taylor Swift. Who 76 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: is I mean, she's the teen queen and she is 77 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: crushing the music industry in a good way. Yeah, I 78 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: guess more raising it up. Anyway, I let Kristen talk 79 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: although she's not a teenager anymore, so she's more the 80 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: queen of teens. But now I'm getting into semantics. But 81 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about teeny boppers and fan girls, 82 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: specifically younger female fans of pop music, because this really 83 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: stegways from Taylor Swift because she's often marginalized by her 84 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: haters because she's most adored by young girls. And the 85 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: attitude is, obviously, if young girls like you, you can't 86 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: be that great. Yeah, because young girls don't have any 87 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: real music taste at all. So, and we're not saying 88 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: that that's not our opinion, right, delivering the opinion of 89 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: often I don't know, music snobs. Could we call them 90 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: some critics? Um? So we want, though, to kick off 91 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: with an early history of music fandom, which doesn't begin 92 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: with Frank Sinatra and Bobby Socks is going crazy for him. 93 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: This was really fascinating. Um it goes all the way 94 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: back to the nineteenth century when blick music performances and 95 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: the development of musical stars really emerged. And this is 96 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: coming from an indispensable paper that we found by Daniel 97 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: Cavici called Loving Music Listeners, Entertainers and the Origins of 98 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: Music Fandom in nineteenth century America. Yeah, this gave some 99 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: fascinating perspective because I honestly, really well, not that I 100 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: think about fans and fan girls and teeny boppers all 101 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: that much, but I totally just thought, Yeah, Beatles, Yeah, 102 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: that's where Elvis, that's where it goes back to but yeah, 103 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: all the way back to the early to mid nineteenth century, 104 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: we get music snobs. So one early music lover talking 105 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: about the influence that music can have on you was 106 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: twenty four year old opera fan Lucy Lowell of the 107 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: Massachusetts Lolls, who wrote in eighty four, I suppose it 108 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: can't be for a person to go to things that 109 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: excite her so that she can't fix her mind on 110 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,119 Speaker 1: anything for days afterwards, which sounds similar to the kind 111 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: of adoring fan girling bestowed upon Taylor Swift, one Direction, etcetera. 112 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Although I have a feeling that people probably weren't tearing 113 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: their hair out and crying hysterically at the opera, but 114 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: it's a similar kind of thing of just being fixated 115 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: on these musical performances. Yeah, so in the eighteen twenties, 116 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: this is when we first get the slang word star, 117 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: which emerges in the theater talking about the well, you know, stars, 118 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: stars with stars of the theater. The stars were born 119 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: in the twenties, Caroline, that's right. And then we see 120 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: the evolution of music consumption in the mid to late 121 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: nineteenth century because there were more and more public spaces 122 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: actually built just for music that facilitated the commercial growth 123 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: of this kind of entertainment. You get more concert halls, 124 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: plessure gardens, museum stages, and taverns and taverns people have 125 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: always played in bars. Can we bring back pleasure gardens though, 126 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: because those are places I would like to go as 127 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 1: often as possible to have a little quartet playing. Yeah, 128 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: where is where is my local pleasure garden? I don't know, 129 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: but don't google that. It sounds like that could get 130 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,559 Speaker 1: you some bad results. It's just a David Busters these days. 131 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: But in the eight fifties, though, this is when professional 132 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: virtuosos began touring nationally, which really helped transform public musical 133 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: performances into more commercial entertainment and also made it more 134 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: of a social ritual. You go out and you see 135 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: the star who's coming through town. You go to the 136 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: pleasure garden to see the virtuoso. And this is when 137 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: we really get our early music lovers. So maybe not 138 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: as fanatic to use that important term as a beatlemaniac, 139 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: or as a Taylor Swift or One Direction fan, but 140 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: people who are still forming because of these new technologies, 141 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: because of these new social rituals, they're able to form 142 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: connections with these entertainers, and they really do their best 143 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: to not only consume the new musical culture as much 144 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: as possible, but to also make it their own, for instance, 145 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: doing things like studying where the best place to sit 146 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: in a theater or a concert hall is. And I 147 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: mean that just strikes me so much as like this 148 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: must just be human nature, because you know, you have 149 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: music nerds, you know, and I'm not disparaging music nerds, 150 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: but you have music nerds basically who will do just that, 151 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: who will learn all they can about a band or 152 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: a group or an artist and do everything they can 153 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: not only to connect with that artist, but also to 154 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: find the best way to consume that product. Yeah, and 155 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: with that background, in the early eighteen fifties, the first 156 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: big music stars were born, and most notably we have 157 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: in the US at least so we is opera singer 158 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: Jenny Lynne, whose US tour was a phenomenon. I mean 159 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: this was partially due to P. T. Barnum's marketing prowess, 160 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: because I mean, long before she set foot in the 161 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: United States to do this tour, he you know, basically 162 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: did all of this pr campaigning. Being like Jenny Lynde 163 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: is coming and it will change your life. And people 164 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: went bananas for her. Yeah, and what's funny, I mean 165 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: to show you how bananas they went. Um. I knew 166 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: the name Jenny Lynde, but I didn't know why. And 167 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: so when Kristen and I were talking about this, I 168 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: looked up, like, Okay, why do I know Jenny lynn 169 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: from being a furniture company? And I googled it. No, 170 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: Jenny Lyne was not a furniture company. There is a 171 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: very specific style of bed called the Jenny lind bed. 172 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: It's one of those school beds. If you have any 173 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: antiques or no anyone antiques, you've probably seen the style 174 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: of bed. My family has them. She was so popular 175 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: that she was one of the first entertainers of that however, 176 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: to have things named for her like a bed. But also, 177 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: I mean there were Jenny Lynde gloves, There were There 178 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: was all sorts of consumer products around at the time 179 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: that were named after her or dedicated to her, because 180 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: that's how much people loved, adored and wanted a piece 181 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: of her. Wasn't there even a Jenny lend tobacco? Oh? Yeah, 182 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: you know you've made it when you've got your own tobacco. 183 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: It's kind of like how you know, every pop star 184 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: has her own perfume, right, But fans were so wild 185 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: for her that they called it Lindmania. And fans went 186 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: so wild for her that they even called this Lyndmania. 187 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: And there was one excerpt from a newspaper I forget 188 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: which one it was, of the journalist essentially being like, 189 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: sell all of your possessions if you have to. You 190 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: have to get a ticket to go see Jenny Lynde, 191 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: and descriptions of these concerts where people would I mean, 192 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: it was almost like a mob, a crazed mob, just 193 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: clamoring to see her. You can get injured at a 194 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: Jenny Lynde concert in the eighteen fifties because I mean, 195 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: if people want to see her, they will trample you 196 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: to get a better look at her. Victorians be tripping, 197 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: that's right, well, and that's happening in the United States. Meanwhile, 198 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: in Europe we have pianist and composer Franz List who 199 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: incites lista mania, which, if that sounds familiar, is probably 200 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: because of that Phoenix song. List of Mania, which is 201 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: now going to be in my head for the rest 202 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: of the day. But List was the first performer to 203 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: walk out on stage one to take his seat at 204 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: the piano bench to do kind of the dramatic entrance, 205 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: and he also positioned the piano to allow the audience 206 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: to see his face, so you know, the piano has 207 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: turned to its side rather than him sitting behind the piano. 208 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: And boy did the ladies go wild for List? I know, 209 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: I love this. Stephen Huff, who's a world renowned concert pianist, 210 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: said that we hear about women throwing their clothes onto 211 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: the stage and taking his cigar butts and placing them 212 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: in their cleavages, which sounds a little dangerous. First of all, 213 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: that's plural, and I love that cleavages. Watch out for cleavages, 214 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: burns from cigar butts discarded. Also, I wonder where these 215 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: cigar boats are coming from, because now I'm just imagining 216 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: Lists playing while smoking a cigar without any hands, frantically smoking, yeah, 217 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: just puffing on it. Um. So clearly, this kind of 218 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 1: I mean, clearly, this kind of fanaticism long predates Beatlemania. 219 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Well, so we have to then talk about 220 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: not friends List specific mania or Lynn Mania, but music 221 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: omania in general, which was first described as such in 222 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties and eventually fell out of use by 223 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. The physicians had known since medieval times 224 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: that music could end up having a really profound effect 225 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: on you physically and psychologically. It can make you feel happy, 226 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: you're sad, or whatever melancholy, But during this period in 227 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, there was an actual doctor diagnosis to 228 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: find as a variety of monomania, in which the passion 229 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: for music is carried to such an extent as to 230 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: derange the intellectual faculties, which sounds a lot like how 231 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: fan girls are described one direction ers crying at the 232 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: sign of Harry Styles. It sounds a lot like these 233 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: early descriptions of music a mania, which really was not 234 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: gendered at all at the time, although there was certainly 235 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: a backlash to music a mania, which is reminiscent of 236 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: the modern day marginalization of teeny boppers and fan girls, 237 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: because apparently there were calls for more classical appreciation of music, 238 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: because fans were quote too invested in the wrong ways 239 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: and for the wrong reasons, and so music snobs of 240 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: the day would differentiate between the ordinary fan, who lacked 241 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: appropriate education and taste who. I mean, it sounds a 242 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: lot like, you know, the records or a clerk stereotype 243 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: of like, even if you like a certain album, they'll 244 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: still give you the stain guy because you probably just 245 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: don't know enough about how it was made or how 246 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: to appropriately listen to it. Um. But then they also 247 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: had the musician and the refined fan, the fan who 248 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: really understood the music to a degree to which they 249 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: could appropriately and with a level head listen to it, right. 250 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure those are the people who are 251 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: picking the right seat in the concert hall to hear 252 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: the music best, and they're not going wild over they're 253 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: probably not too a motive. I was like, no, that's 254 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: the wonderful June. Wonderful June. Yeah. I mean, there were 255 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: even music snobs who looked down on music fans, which 256 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: honestly wasn't a term until a little bit later, like 257 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century, but look down on fans 258 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: who would listen to the record or the performance too 259 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 1: much and then get sick of it. They were like, obviously, 260 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: you're not a good enough consumer of this classical, beautiful 261 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: music if you're going to listen to it all the 262 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: time until you get sick of it. I am just 263 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: going to listen to it the once or the twice 264 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: and really appreciate it. And of course, this development of 265 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: music fandom, particularly as we move into the early twentieth century, 266 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: is also facilitated by technological advances that allows you to 267 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: not only consume music in live venues, to go to 268 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: the pleasure garden and see the virtuoso of your choice, 269 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: but also listen to recordings of the virtuoso or of 270 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: Jenny Lynde at home. And there's also sheet music being produced, 271 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: and also you do have more of the performances being 272 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: turned into this kind of entertainment industry. And then in 273 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties, this is when the first 274 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: fan clubs emerged. So we're really getting serious about our 275 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: fandom post World War One. Yeah, we're coming together. I mean, 276 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: I mean, imagine how different it would have been to 277 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: be in a fan club in the nineteen thirties as 278 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: opposed to twenty fifteen, when you have the Internet. Back 279 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: then you had to be really freaking committed to communicating 280 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: with your fellow fans and consuming all of these you know, products, 281 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: whether it's cheap music or the records themselves or whatever. Yeah, 282 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: and you probably don't even need fan clubs today because 283 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: Tumbler is pretty much just a giant fan club. Right, 284 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: different things, But once you get into mid century, in 285 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, you have the even more monetization of music, 286 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: particularly with the development of pop music. And when we 287 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: have pop music and bubblegum pop in particular come of about, 288 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: and these record labels really getting savvy about targeting their fans. 289 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: This is when fandom, though, and criticism of music fandom 290 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: becomes less generalized and more gendered. Yeah, well, I mean, 291 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, Kristin mentioned earlier that the whole music a 292 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: mania thing was really not not gender did. It honestly 293 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: seemed to be more about class about and not even 294 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: necessarily financial stuff, but just you were on a higher 295 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: plane of existence if you consumed and enjoyed music in 296 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: a certain way versus the people that you look down upon. 297 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: You know, people who had music a mania were obviously 298 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: not to be trusted. We don't like those people, but 299 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: it was all sort of equal opportunity snobbery. There were 300 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: women who wrote in their diaries sniffing it, like, look 301 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: at these writhing masses of people how disgusting, same as 302 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: you did with men. And they were writing about people 303 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: of either gender. And so it is interesting to see 304 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: that evolution in the mid twentieth century about fan girls 305 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: and teeny boppers specifically consuming music that honestly, as we'll 306 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: get into here in a second, I mean, it was 307 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: made for them. Yeah, and we'll get into all of 308 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: that and talk more about teeny boppers past and present 309 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break and 310 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: now back to the show. So in the first half 311 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: of the podcast, we talked about the history of music 312 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: fandom that I know I wasn't familiar with. But now 313 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: it's time to pick up with a name that really 314 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: launched the whole teeny bopper thing, which is Frank Sinatra. Yeah. 315 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: I mean this was in the nineteen forties and Sinatra 316 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: was he was a younger gentleman, is kind of handsome. 317 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean, he had kind of a pointy face. Yeah, 318 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna be honest. He was kind of the original. 319 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: Can we say the original justin Bieber. I don't want 320 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: to disparage Frank Sinatra in that way, but I mean 321 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: he really incited though the first modern fan girling of 322 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: girls crying and loving him and just wanting I mean, 323 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: they just wanted Frankie. Yeah, but I mean I think 324 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: that goes, you know, not to go too deep into 325 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra, but I mean, I think the whole issue 326 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: with getting the teeny bopper love and tears and emoting 327 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: over Frank Sinatra goes back to what he talked about 328 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: with Taylor Swift in our last episode. Because Taylor Swift 329 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: is herself a very young woman, very successful, knows how 330 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: to connect with fans who are also very young, much 331 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: younger than even she is. And I think that Frank 332 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: Sinatra was one of the first, early, very young performers 333 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: who was able to connect with young women who were 334 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden part of this rising consumer culture, 335 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: part of this new teenage group of people that had 336 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: never really been recognized before. That's such a great point. 337 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: And also with Sinatra, he I'm sure he was not 338 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: the first to do this, but he also was available 339 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: in so many different ways to his fans because not 340 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: only could they see him in appearances or see him 341 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: singing live, he was also in movies as well, so 342 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: you could watch him act, you could watch him fall 343 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: in love. I mean, there you know, it's definitely a 344 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: multi dimensional star um. But then in the nineteen fifty 345 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: we have the emergence of bubblegum pop that, according to 346 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: the book Girlhood in America quote set the precedent of 347 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: style over substance in the musical consumption of teenage girls 348 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: because it was really manufactured for them. Yeah, it was. 349 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: You definitely had a lot of of record industry executives 350 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: coming together and saying, Okay, so we're we're in the 351 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: postwar period. I don't know if anybody was actually saying 352 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: that in the fifties, but they're in the postwar period. 353 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: We have this new group of people were recognizing called teenagers, 354 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: and they have consumer power somewhat a little bit now 355 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: and and there they have a little bit more agency 356 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: than children of their age group fifty years prior. Let's 357 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: package something for them. And so this sort of came 358 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: along with the whole advent of top forty radio, which 359 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: relied on a specific teen appealing formula to turn a profit. Yeah, 360 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: because teams were spending time by themselves in ways that 361 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: they never had before. They're also dating, they also had 362 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: cars um, and they also had magazines being created specifically 363 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: for them. Six teen Magazine in particular, was one of 364 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: the earliest and most widely circulated teen magazines that totally 365 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: fed early fandom. Um, this is coming again from Girlhood 366 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: in America, saying, quote, teeny bopper fandom is essentially a 367 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: subculture of consumption. Yeah, and I sort of this is 368 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: something that if you really think about it, it makes 369 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: total sense. But that I still hated reading because it 370 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: made me sad for young girls who apparently can't win. Um. 371 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: So this is also coming from Girlhood in America, and 372 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: he writes that the genre is primarily a commodity to 373 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: be marketed and sold to teenage girls. It uses a 374 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: specific formula to turn a profit, leaving many to believe 375 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: that the fans who consume the product are cultural dupes. 376 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: So basically, girls are being blamed for consuming the very 377 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 1: things that they are meant to zoom according to record 378 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: industry executives or radio DJs or what have you. Yeah, 379 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and and sure there is a lot of 380 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: it that is very formulaic. I mean, go back and 381 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: listen to our episode a while back on boy bands. 382 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: I mean, these things are specifically built and made for 383 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: this specific audience. And so from then though until now 384 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: when you read media descriptions of this um of this demographic, 385 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: of the tunny popper demographic, which is which makes it 386 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: sound like such fogies. Also, I just use the word fogy. 387 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: I'm but to call them teeny poppers. Um. But even 388 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: today they're described as just having really no taste whatsoever. 389 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: It's all emotion and hormones and no discriminating taste whatsoever. 390 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: We're just looking for the Frank Sinatra essentially, because you've 391 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: got people who are saying, if you are consuming and 392 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: rapidly can saym ing um something that is prepackaged and 393 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: bubblegum popish, then yeah, then you must not have any 394 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: discriminating taste. You're just as as people talk about a 395 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: lot of people just dismiss girls who like pop music 396 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: as just this writhing mass of unbridled girlhood sexuality. Yeah, 397 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of pop music scholars mark this point 398 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: in the emergence in the development of the music industry 399 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: in the United States as this sort of dichotomy between 400 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: male pop and rock fans seen as active consumers. They're 401 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: choosing what they like. They're smarter and more discriminating in 402 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: whatever goes in their record player versus passive fan girls 403 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: who are just sort of we're spoon fed our tastes. Yeah, 404 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: just tell us who the new pop star off the 405 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: conveyor belt is, and we'll just consume this music and 406 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: buy the posters and buy the tickets. Except who should 407 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: I have a crush on? And I do remember remember 408 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: that in my own experience when I first heard about Hansen, 409 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: because friends of mine had crushes on them, and there 410 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: was a whole thing of you know, which one did 411 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: you like? Of course it was the middle one. Obviously 412 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: he was the hottest, and so I went pre anticipated 413 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: liking mop and wanting to have a crush on him. 414 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: So there is, I mean, there is that aspect to 415 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: it as well. I have something to confess what I 416 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: think you and I in our lives in we're acting 417 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: out the dichotomy of which we are currently speaking, really 418 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: because I remember being in six or seventh grade whenever 419 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: Buck came out. But for us, I don't mean whatever 420 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: have rolled everybody else was but looking at it and 421 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: being like, hmm, well, Caroline, you gotta remember too. I 422 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: was homeschooled, so I I will play that card. And 423 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: I was edgy, urban youth. I certainly wasn't an edgy 424 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: urban but I don't know like where my snobber even 425 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: came from. It's not like I was actively consuming any 426 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: type of music other than what I heard on the radio, 427 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: but just looking down my nose at at this pop music, 428 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: I think it was less than music though for me, 429 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: and just the fact that I was primed for crushing. Heck, yeah, 430 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: I love to crush, so I was sorry. Sorry, I 431 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: was really busy crushing on Gavin Rossdale, so I didn't 432 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: have time for tailor hands. Oh yeah, I jumped on 433 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: that tram a little bit later. I was just just 434 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: that was probably just a late bloomer. But anyway, Um, 435 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: Also at this time, though, it's not just male pop 436 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: stars who are being developed and groomed for the Bubbleguma audience, 437 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: but also you do have girl groups like the Ronet's 438 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: and the Cherrell's who were also being pitched directly to girls, 439 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: sort of like uh proto Taylor Swift. Yeah, in honor 440 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: of this episode, last night, I was listening to my 441 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: um Marveltt's Pandora station, and it's all of these wonderful, 442 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: wonderful girl groups. And it's interesting, though to listen to 443 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: that station. And here all of these bubblegum pop, totally 444 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: manufactured groups girls who Marry Me not have even known 445 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: each other, being dragged together by record executives to make money. 446 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: But the whole thing about those girl groups is, even 447 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: if they weren't doing their own songwriting, which they weren't, 448 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: you had people like Carol King, for instance, writing a 449 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: lot of the lyrics for these girl groups to sing. 450 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: The songs were still providing a window into the emotional 451 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: world of young women. And this is something that Andy 452 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: Zeisler wrote about in feminism and pop culture that that's 453 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: sure they're manufactured, Sure it's pop, it's not like the 454 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: highest Denominator or whatever, but it's still great music and 455 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: it's still for girls, and it's just like Taylor Swift 456 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: is today. It's giving girls of that era something that 457 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: they can look at and relate to. Yeah. Absolutely, and 458 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen forties and definitely in the nineteen fifties, 459 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: sort of this groundwork has been laid, so that also 460 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and sixties, once Elvis comes around 461 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: and then the Beatles, all hell kind of breaks loose 462 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: fan wise, but that also sort of cements this stereotype 463 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: as well of the fawning, crying, hysterical. That work comes 464 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: up a lot and it's important that it does come 465 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: up a lot. Um. And the perception hasn't improved since then, Yeah, 466 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: it certainly hasn't. UM. I do think it is interesting though, 467 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: that there is so much literature out there about young 468 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: girl fans, whether they're the teeny boppers of the fifties 469 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: or the swifties of today. But um. Jacqueline Edmondson edited 470 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: this book Music and American Life that did talk about 471 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: the whole pop versus rock, feminine versus masculine, active versus 472 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: passive thing and said that although girls and women became 473 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: an integral part of the popular music industry, they were 474 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: constantly devalued and objectified. I mean it goes back to 475 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: that whole thing of rock being serious, rap and hip 476 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: hop being hyper masculine, and pop is just this thing 477 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: that gets shoved aside as valueless because it is consumed 478 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: by girls and women. And there was a note as 479 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: well in the Continuum Encyclopedia of Popular Music in the 480 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: World talking about how popular music scholars have really gone 481 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: back and quote challenge negative and stereotyped conceptualizations of female fans, 482 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: who have regularly been presented in news reports and popular 483 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: literature as passive consumers. There's that word again, passive uncritically 484 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: supporting mass produced music, or as swooning teenagers idolizing male 485 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: pop stars. Yeah. And the thing you get a lot 486 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: too the more you read about this is the recognition 487 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: that a lot of it has to do with the 488 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: idea of the feminine and the female being considered the 489 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: other um. Asia Romano, who wrote an article in The 490 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: Kernel called the teens on Tumbler Are all Right, talks 491 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: about how teenage girls continue to be one of the 492 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: world's prime targets for being held up as a social 493 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: example of something alien, foreign and overtly sexualized, arriving primordial, 494 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: massive or orgiastic emotions waiting to be tapped by adult 495 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: men who treat their identities as a bizarre spectacle. Because 496 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: when you think about it, especially when you read and 497 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: we'll talk about this article a little later, when you 498 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: read like the g Q piece about One Direction and 499 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: talking about their fans, and I mean the way they 500 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: describe these young girls is a hormone bomb, I believe 501 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: was the way they described it. Well, there was just 502 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: a lot of horrifying, like a dark pink mass of 503 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. It's just it got old, too old 504 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: to sexual especially since the girls are talking about are 505 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: like eleven um. But it's strange that nobody seems to 506 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: be able to step back and say, wait, okay, this 507 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: is just this is just another half of the population 508 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: doing something like they want to do. Maybe we should 509 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: question why the other half of the population does things 510 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: like they do. For instance, you know, men going nuts 511 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: over sports or sports teams or whatever, or going nuts 512 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,239 Speaker 1: over music as well, but just in a different kind 513 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: of way. And at this point, I think it's worth 514 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: noting that this conversation really is not an argument on 515 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: behalf of like the fine musical quality of all pop music. 516 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: It's not about the music. It's more about this persistent 517 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: pattern of like marginalizing this very specific demographic, and you 518 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: throw pop music under the bus along with it as well. 519 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: But what's fascinating to see is just how how the 520 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: media even approaches fangirls. It's like, we still don't know 521 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: how to wrap our lines around these young girls. There 522 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: was even an article about this in the Wall Street 523 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: Journal of all places, called inside the brains of Justin 524 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: Bieber fans which interviewed these neurologists being like, what's happening 525 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: inside their brains? I mean, what what would compel a 526 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: twelve year old to cry at the sight of One Direction? 527 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: And answering this very serious and hard hitting question, uh, 528 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: neuroscientists and neurologists were basically saying that this experience of 529 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: listening to Taylor Swift or watching One Direction releases dopamine, 530 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: which is of course a neurotransmitter involved in pleasure and addiction. 531 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: It provides the same rush as eating chocolate or winning 532 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: for a compulsive gambler. Yes, so we like it in 533 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: other words, and we just really like it and it 534 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: makes us feel good. We like it now. It was 535 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: noteworthy though that and this is nothing against Dr Daniel 536 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: Leviton conducting this research at all, um, but I did 537 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: think it was interesting how he said that these musical 538 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: chase are really formed and wired in our brains in 539 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: the teen years and really become part of our brains 540 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: internal wiring, so that, for instance, in my case, when 541 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: I hear Bob, I am taken back to when I 542 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,719 Speaker 1: was eleven or twelve years old listening to being like, 543 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: oh man, there homeschool too. I know, well it's I 544 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: didn't mean to totally skip over. You just said sorry 545 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,719 Speaker 1: my tween dreams, tween dream, homeschool romance with the middle, 546 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: with the middle handsome brother. Yeah, I mean this this. 547 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: I feel like dude roommate has said similar things to me, 548 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: although his his brain stunting came a little bit later. 549 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: I guess he's still obsessed with the atari's so he 550 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: formed that emotional obsessive bond with a pop punk band. Yeah, 551 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: it's just it's just nostalgia here is. But there's also 552 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: too Almost any time this conversation comes up of like 553 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: why beatlemaniacs, why one direction? Or is why justin Bieber fans. 554 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: There's also this talk of safe sexuality. And we talked 555 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: about this a lot too in our episode on boy bands. Um, 556 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: it's like, calm down, parents, It's just these are just 557 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: kind of like practice boyfriends, which is also highly heteronormative, 558 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: and we don't even have time to get into uh, 559 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: sexual orientation and race when it comes to fandom, the 560 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: portrayal of fandom as well, because it is very white 561 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: and very straight. Um, but there's this it's almost like Okay, 562 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: we can calm down, because this is a safe way 563 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: for girls to express their sexualities. We we should actually 564 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: be glad that they're kissing posters and not actually making 565 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: out with real boys. Yeah. Well, I mean it's when 566 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: you think about yourself being in sixth grade or whatever. 567 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: Is it really so hard to understand this and to 568 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: imagine it because you're you're hitting everybody, You've got these 569 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: hormones rushing through you for the first time, You're looking 570 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: around going like for the first time, your Tina Belcher. 571 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: Basically you're looking around and being like, butts awesome, and 572 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: so just like it's no surprise that girls of the 573 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: fifties consumed the music that was packaged and presented to 574 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: and for them. Is it really any surprise that a 575 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: girl of thirteen would, who's suddenly awakening to the idea 576 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: that hey, I really like butts boys butts, would look 577 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: at somebody like one direction and start fantasizing or almost 578 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 1: obsessing over them. Yeah, and not almost. I mean plenty 579 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: of girls do outright obsessed over these things. I mean 580 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: I outright obsessed over Prince William truth be told. And 581 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: I was young, I thought I would be Kate Middleton 582 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: per chance. Um. But and this is also too all 583 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: in the context of living in a society where expressing 584 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: outright that kind of actuality, the sexual desires, Tina belterering 585 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: um is not okay for girls. So it's not only 586 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: a thing of and I think that that's often left 587 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: out these conversations of like, well, no wonder they're freaking 588 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: out because in a lot of ways were kind of 589 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: pent up um. But one quote though from that Wall 590 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: Street Journal article that jumped out was boys also developed 591 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: musical taste in this phase of life, but adolescent girls 592 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: are far more likely to become infatuated with pop stars, 593 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: experts say, because they are awakening to romantic and sexual 594 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: feelings that are both intoxicating and scary. And it's like, 595 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: but what about the boys though, So they're doing all 596 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: of this, they're developing these kinds of things. They are 597 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: also you know, having experiencing sexual feelings that are probably 598 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: both intoxicating and scary. But we aren't as weirded out 599 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: by that, right. It's almost like a coming of age, uh, 600 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: an expected and accepted phase that a boy will like, 601 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, tape up pictures of Megan Fox or whoever. 602 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: In his bedroom, and you know, we were all like, oh, 603 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: that's just a pervy little thirteen year old bullets what 604 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: they go through, whereas there's not that same acceptance and 605 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: a pass is not given to young girls. Instead, it's like, 606 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: it's icky and scary that you're also obsessed with these 607 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: pop stars. Yeah, how strange And also too, this is 608 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: around the time there were every now and then you'll 609 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: have comparisons to boys and men's obsessions with sports teams 610 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: to the point that they are also yelling and screaming 611 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: and crying. But there but that doesn't seem strange at all. 612 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: There's never any like, oh, well, what's going on inside 613 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: those fans brains? Right? But coming back to the girls, 614 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: the teeny the girl teeny boppers emotions aside, and perhaps 615 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: unrealistic obsessions with boy bands aside, it's still unanniable that 616 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: this is such an influential group. I mean, these girls 617 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: prop up in a lot of ways the music industry. 618 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: I mean we talked about in the Taylor Swift episode. 619 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: How I mean her sales accounted for of all records 620 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: sales in the United States the week that it came out. Yeah, 621 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: I mean this is just part of a wave that 622 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: has been waving since the eighteen fifties. There is nothing 623 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: new about consumer culture when it comes to music and 624 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: the fact that these fans who are so disparaged so often, 625 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: they really are giving these artists quite the fat paycheck. 626 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: And and you know, so for that their disparaged, they're 627 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: they're buying something it's prepackaged. They're listening to something that 628 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: is that is super hyper produced. Um, and everybody says 629 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: that that's just not good enough. But as Asia Romano 630 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: over The Colonel pointed out in August, it's not like 631 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: we have to worry so much about the future of 632 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: our country based on the fact that kids like pop music. 633 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: I mean, they've always liked pop music. If anything, these 634 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: kids might be better off than we were, she argues, 635 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: because they're so social media and real world savvy and 636 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: much more so than we give them credit for, and 637 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: they happen to be much more likely to engage in actual, 638 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: real life activism. For instance, Yeah, there was there's a 639 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: mom who wrote a column I think it came out 640 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 1: in The Guardian who talking about her daughter who is 641 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 1: a die hard One Direction fan. She's a one Direction 642 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,479 Speaker 1: of and she said, yeah, you can disparaiture all you want, 643 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: but she is demonstrated and learned all sorts of real 644 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: world skills, such as navigating her way to a concert, 645 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 1: like getting on the subway with her friends, figuring out 646 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: how to budget and then buy a ticket, and also 647 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 1: meeting all of these other girls, these other one direction 648 00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: ers as well. And she was like, I think it's 649 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: actually really been rather valuable for her. I mean, that's 650 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 1: a that's a really glass half full kind of perspective. 651 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: But I think that it's worth opening up our our 652 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: perception of who these girls are, because a lot of 653 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: times we just kind of distilled them down into just 654 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: arriving pink hormone bomb waying to go off, rather than 655 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: oh no, these are individuals and they probably do all 656 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: have different tastes in certain ways. I mean they you know, 657 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: we all they have to at least choose which One 658 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: Direction band member they like the most. That's right. Well, 659 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: I thought an interesting perspective on it, kind of jumping 660 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: off from the whole using social media to connect, using 661 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: social media to participate in activism. They're sort of echoes 662 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: of that from the fandom around girl groups of the 663 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and this is coming from that book Feminism 664 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: and Pop Culture by Andy Szeisler, and she was quoting 665 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: Susan Douglas who was talking about how back in the sixties, yes, 666 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: you have commercialism and all of this pop music, but 667 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: the girls who were listening to it got this sense 668 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: of euphoria. She was saying, it wasn't just the the 669 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: happiness of listening to this music or purchasing it and 670 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: participating in this culture. But she said that for tens 671 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: of millions of young girls who started feeling at the 672 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: same time that day, as a generation would not be 673 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: trapped and there was plan of the tiniest seat of 674 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: a social movement. And again that might seem like a 675 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: glass half full, kind of a pie in the sky idea, 676 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: but you know, we did mention earlier that those girl 677 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: groups of the fifties and sixties it was really the 678 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: first time that female singers were singing lyrics about female emotions. Yeah. Well, 679 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: and even when it comes to the beatle Maniacs, there 680 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: have also been uh feminists who have said, hey, well, 681 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: this is also to the first time we really saw 682 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: the female gays and masks. Maybe we're also a little 683 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with this just because the tables have turned in 684 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 1: that way of you have thousands and thousands of girls 685 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: actively lusting after a group of men, and hey, we 686 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: probably just hadn't seen that very much anymore, and we 687 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,439 Speaker 1: still to this day are uncomfortable with seeing that kind 688 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: of um sexuality perhaps on display, right, because it's the 689 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: whole heteronormative male culture being the default. That's why no 690 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: one questions crazy male sports fandom. It's why it's cool 691 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: from my former dude roommate to scream at the television 692 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,479 Speaker 1: or lose his mind at a U G A game, 693 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: but it's looked down upon if a girl loses her 694 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: mind screaming over Taylor Swift. Well, I think this two 695 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 1: circles back not only to our episode on boy bands, 696 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: but also to our Bitch episode because we kicked it 697 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: off talking about basic bitches, and the hallmark of a 698 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,760 Speaker 1: basic bitch is also a die hard love of Taylor Swift, 699 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: which I think to reflects this kind of you know, 700 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: eschewing any sign of just unabashed femininity. Because as writer 701 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: and editor Rachel Adiden said two Time Magazine talking about 702 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: this issue of fan girls, and this is more of 703 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: fan girls in geek culture being disparaged. She said, quote 704 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: feminization is almost universally seen as appreciation of value. And 705 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: it's not only that depreciation of value. It is also 706 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: a giant pushing together of really different groups of people. 707 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: It's assuming that all of these young girls and can 708 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: we not forget the young boys to who we like 709 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: this music? Yes, I mean talk about like heteronormative culture. 710 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: It is very heteronormative, and it honestly wasn't until recently 711 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: that popular music studies have really highlighted that diversity. And 712 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 1: this is coming again from the Continuum Encyclopedia of Popular 713 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: Music in the World, which cited study by a pop 714 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 1: music scholar or which found that female Elvis fans had 715 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: their own particular personal and also political uses for the 716 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: performer rather than simply worshiping Elvis because they should worship Elvis. 717 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: And the same thing, there was another study that they 718 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: decided um talking about how being a fan is quote 719 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: more of a celebration of girl culture and a process 720 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: through which female sexuality and identity are produced as it 721 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: is about the male performers involved. That makes a lot 722 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: of sense, totally. Yeah, I mean, if you have I 723 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,800 Speaker 1: don't want to keep going back to the sports example, 724 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: because I realized that things are not always black and 725 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: white with clear lines. There's plenty of overlap here, and 726 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: women love sports. Women love sports too. Yeah, But I mean, 727 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 1: just to kind of pick on an example, I mean, 728 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: there's a lot of social acceptance for boys from a 729 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: young age learning to love sports and using it as 730 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: a way to bond with other men in their lives, 731 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: whether those are friends or dads or brothers or whoever. 732 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: And why should girls fandom or girls love of whether 733 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: it's a pop princess or a boy band or whoever, 734 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: why should that be less valued? Well, and a lot 735 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,839 Speaker 1: of it's probably for that reason though that a lot 736 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: of UH analysts and scholars have noted how in a 737 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: lot of ways, die hard fandom is transgressive of the 738 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: appropriate feminine roles, both then and still today. And we 739 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 1: see that just kind of reflected in the kind of 740 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: brush off that they often get. Now, can fangirls get 741 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: obsessive and go wild and also say horrible things on 742 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: social media if you disagree with their taste. Yes, fans 743 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: are not perfect, No fan is perfect, but I think 744 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: it's just worth considering why teeny boppers, in particular the 745 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: female teeny Bopper is just so universe resally maligned. It 746 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: will be interesting, Kristen, when you and I are podcasters 747 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: in our eighties to look back and see how this 748 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: particular point in time where we have the intersection of 749 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: pop music and fandom and all of that stuff and 750 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 1: social media, how that will affect things. Because you and 751 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 1: I in the beginning of the podcast kept mentioning changing technology, 752 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,240 Speaker 1: changing methods for consuming music, and all of that stuff 753 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 1: in the way that it fostered that music lover culture. 754 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: It will be interesting to see how all of these 755 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: young girls who now feel like they have a voice 756 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: on social media and can connect with each other over 757 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: their fandom, but can also say, hey, screw you g 758 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: Q writers for portraying me as a terrible person and 759 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: portraying Harry Styles as a terrible person. It will just 760 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: be interesting to see how and whether that changes the 761 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 1: culture and whether it gives young women more of a 762 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: voice as they get older. And you can tune into 763 00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: that episode in on Stuff Grandma never told you that's right, 764 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: But now we want to hear from teeny Bopper's fangirls listening, 765 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 1: what do you think about all of this mom stuff? 766 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: At how stuffworks dot com is our email address. You 767 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,320 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages 768 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: on Facebook. We definitely want to hear from fans. Have 769 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: you been dismissed simply for being a fan who also 770 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: happens to be a girl or a woman. Let us 771 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: know mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com and we've 772 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. 773 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: So I've got a couple of letters here about our 774 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,959 Speaker 1: episode on ankles and cankles, And this one is coming 775 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: from Wendy, who writes, my husband related to me the 776 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,399 Speaker 1: story of a teammate on his high school football team. Hey, 777 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: guys in sports call back. This individual was a linebacker 778 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: with a stocky build and was overall very athletic, but 779 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: was very aware of his lack of ankles. You mentioned 780 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: that there were no exercises to slim the ankle, but 781 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 1: the approach he took was to perform tons of calf 782 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,880 Speaker 1: raises to make his calves more prominent, giving the illusion 783 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: of a smaller ankle. One day, he burst into the 784 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: weight room exclaiming, I have ankles, showing them off to 785 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,399 Speaker 1: his fellow teammates. He was so enthusiastic. He was also 786 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: totally open about his excitement with the other guys, which 787 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: I love. And also it shows that men do talk 788 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: to each other about more than sports and babes in 789 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 1: the locker room. I thought it would be interesting to 790 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: share that this was not just a lady centric issue. 791 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 1: Love the podcast and keep up the good work. Well thanks, 792 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: Wendy Well. I have a letter here from Diana, who 793 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: starts off the email with three thank you's and so 794 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: you're welcome. She says, I have cankles. It is genetic. 795 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: My grandmother on my dad's side never wore dresses, and 796 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: now I am in the same boat. It is a 797 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 1: painful thing to see people staring at my ankles, are 798 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: making comments. Don't even think about skinny jeans, which you 799 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,319 Speaker 1: didn't mention. But it is a problem for people like me. 800 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: I know what they're saying. As you said, there is 801 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: nothing I can do about it. I have large risks too, 802 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,919 Speaker 1: and although it helped me as an athlete, it will 803 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: never be the definition of the Gibson girl. We women 804 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: are still held out to be. Even finding skew boots 805 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: is impossible at times. Oprah once mentioned cankles years ago 806 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: and laughed at the term. I cried. Even Oprah, who 807 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,240 Speaker 1: acts as though she is the defender of all people 808 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,240 Speaker 1: who are different, didn't get me. I hope this message 809 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,920 Speaker 1: reaches those who don't or can't understand my position in 810 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,720 Speaker 1: the hope it will help alleviate the judgment. So thank you, Diana, 811 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry Oprah doesn't support you. Yeah, Oprah, maybe 812 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 1: so blind to cankles. Even Oprah is not perfect though. 813 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: It's a good reminder. So if you have letters to 814 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: send to us, no Mom stuff at how Suffworks dot 815 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 1: com is our email address, and we'd love to hear 816 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:53,840 Speaker 1: from you. But if you'd like to give us a 817 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,800 Speaker 1: shout out on social media, you can find links to 818 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,280 Speaker 1: all of those places as well. It's all of our blogs, videos, 819 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: and podcast asked, including this one with our sources so 820 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 1: you can read along with us if you like. All 821 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,879 Speaker 1: of that's over. It's stuff Mom Never told You dot 822 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 823 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: Is it how Stuff Works dot com