Speaker 1: My Heart Radio presents Inside the Studio. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Joe Levy. My guest this episode is James Taylor, who
Speaker 1: has two new recordings out right now. American Standard is
Speaker 1: his album of classic tunes drawn from the Great American songbook.
Speaker 1: Break Shot is an audio book, a memoir about his family,
Speaker 1: his music, and his life until the age of one.
Speaker 1: The first is full of great melodies, songs like Pennies
Speaker 1: from Heavens, Sit Down, Your Rocking, the Boat Moon River,
Speaker 1: all rendered with warm intimacy and delicate control. The second
Speaker 1: delivers strikingly direct accounts of Taylor's joys and struggles, including
Speaker 1: the depression that saw him hospitalized as a senior in
Speaker 1: high school and the heroin addiction that began not too
Speaker 1: long after, when he'd moved to New York City in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six or so to try and make it
Speaker 1: as a musician, playing a regular gig at a Grantwich
Speaker 1: village club called the Night Owl with his friend Danny
Speaker 1: Kortchmer and their band, The Flying Machine. It took Taylor
Speaker 1: a few more years than that to find fame and fortune,
Speaker 1: and as he recounts in Breakshot, it also took a
Speaker 1: fair amount of Luck. He tells a story in the
Speaker 1: memoir by Turns horrifying and hilarious of a car accident
Speaker 1: in London where he was living in nineteen sixty eight
Speaker 1: while he recorded his debut album for the Beatles label Apple.
Speaker 1: And while we're talking about Luck, let's talk about recording
Speaker 1: for the Beatles label Apple in nineteen while the Beatles
Speaker 1: are working on the White album. But anyway, driving home
Speaker 1: early one morning, Taylor talks about how he was high
Speaker 1: and holding drugs that he'd scored, and he hit a man,
Speaker 1: and when the cops showed up, he was pretty sure
Speaker 1: that both his career and his life were over before
Speaker 1: they had really be one. But it turned out the
Speaker 1: man that he'd hit was okay, and then in fact,
Speaker 1: he'd been running away from the cops, who ended up
Speaker 1: thanking Taylor for stopping the guy. Beatles are Not. That
Speaker 1: first album went nowhere, But in early nine seventy, Taylor
Speaker 1: released Sweet Baby James with his first hit, Fire and Rain.
Speaker 1: That album, that song, they would help defind a style
Speaker 1: that itself helped define the nineteen seventies confessional singer songwriting.
Speaker 1: And then you know you were gone, Susan fans, You
Speaker 1: may put an end to walk out this morn and
Speaker 1: wrote down the song just can't themod send I've seen
Speaker 1: and I'm seen, though, Taylor, it's planes in breakshot exactly
Speaker 1: how autobiographical many of his songs are. Who the Suzanne
Speaker 1: of Fire and Rain was and how she died. His
Speaker 1: music might be more confessional in feeling than fact. I mean,
Speaker 1: you could listen to the title track of Sweet Baby
Speaker 1: James for most of your life and fully understand the
Speaker 1: sweetly exhausted, deep green and blue emotions it describes without
Speaker 1: ever knowing that it was an account of James driving
Speaker 1: home to North Carolina to meet his nephew, his older
Speaker 1: brother Alex's newborn son also named James, or maybe that's
Speaker 1: just me. I mean, I listened to that song for decades,
Speaker 1: at least once on the very turnpike from Stockbridge to
Speaker 1: Boston that it talks about, and I definitely understood all
Speaker 1: the feelings without ever really knowing the story. At first.
Speaker 1: American Standard seems like something completely different. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is James Taylor singing other people's songs and show tunes
Speaker 1: aren't exactly confessions, but look at it this way. American
Speaker 1: Standard is Taylor's first album in five years, but hardly
Speaker 1: his first time playing covers. He's been singing them for
Speaker 1: a long time. If you don't count his version of
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century Stephen Foster song Old Susannah on Sweet
Speaker 1: Baby James, then you'd have to count his version of
Speaker 1: Carol King's You've Got a Friend on his next album,
Speaker 1: mud Slide Slim. And then there's his duet with his
Speaker 1: then wife Carly Simon on Anez and Charlie Fox's mocking
Speaker 1: Bird in nineteen seventy four, and his great reworking of
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty Jimmy Jones hit Handyman on j T
Speaker 1: in V seven. I mean he released a whole album
Speaker 1: called Covers in two thousand and eight and the More
Speaker 1: Covers EP in two thousand and nine, and both of
Speaker 1: those have a lot of old soul R and B
Speaker 1: and motown songs on them. In a way, those covers
Speaker 1: are a form of autobiography. As he explained Send Break
Speaker 1: Shot and talked about in depth with me, Taylor grew
Speaker 1: up playing that kind of music alongside his brother Alex
Speaker 1: in a band they had called the Fabulous Corsairs. An
Speaker 1: American standard tells Taylor's story in a similar way. These
Speaker 1: are songs he grew up hearing. Some were on albums
Speaker 1: in his parents record collection in North Carolina. Some he
Speaker 1: heard on family trips to New York City to see
Speaker 1: Broadway shows, a regular event organized by his mom. He
Speaker 1: does a version of Surrey with the Fringe on Top
Speaker 1: from Oklahoma on the new album, and it's not even
Speaker 1: his first time recording a song from Oklahoma. More Covers
Speaker 1: starts with a lovely version of Oh What a Beautiful
Speaker 1: Morning that has that James Taylor trademark mix of bluesy
Speaker 1: fingerpicking and reserved bossonova swing me bloody dude, ore, Oh
Speaker 1: what are you? Beautiful? God wonderful, everything's go and my
Speaker 1: we oh word, utiful, beautiful. I asked him what keeps
Speaker 1: him going back to songs from that musical. It's really
Speaker 1: part of my DNA by now. I just listened to
Speaker 1: the cast album so many times, you know, when I was,
Speaker 1: when I was a kid. You know, it's it's a
Speaker 1: great one. It's got people will say, we're in love,
Speaker 1: it's got, everything's up to date in Kansas City. That's
Speaker 1: a great tune, you know. And uh, poor Judd is dead.
Speaker 1: That's that's also great. I don't know, I'm just a
Speaker 1: gal that can't say no. They're funny. Uh. They pushed
Speaker 1: the plot along, they established the characters, they deepen an
Speaker 1: emotional moment. You know, it's excellent songwriting craft. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like these guys really knew what they were doing.
Speaker 1: And in my opinion, it's the epitome of popular music.
Speaker 1: You know, that's sort of the high water mark for
Speaker 1: American popular music. Break Shot is an inside look at
Speaker 1: how Taylor's music first came together, the sounds and experiences
Speaker 1: that shaped him, and it also talks about how his
Speaker 1: family came apart during that same time. American Standard shows
Speaker 1: where his music came from and how it keeps going.
Speaker 1: When we sat down to talk, he had much more
Speaker 1: to say about both. James Taylor, Welcome to Inside the Studio.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Joe. So, you have a new
Speaker 1: audio memoir, Breakshot. It's about your first twenty one years
Speaker 1: on this earth, and also a new album, American Standard,
Speaker 1: which is a collection that draws from the Great American Songbook.
Speaker 1: And right at the start of Breakshot, you refer to
Speaker 1: yourself as a professional biographer or autobiographer who usually talks
Speaker 1: about yourself with your guitar in your hand. That's right.
Speaker 1: It's just the nature of the way I write songs.
Speaker 1: They're very personal and they're very internal process sort of
Speaker 1: brought out into the open end. So I I do
Speaker 1: think of myself as basically navigating through life and describing
Speaker 1: that process. But what I was really struck by listening
Speaker 1: to the new record is that although these are other
Speaker 1: people's songs, there's a definite autobiographical quality to it, at
Speaker 1: least in that these are songs you grew up. It's true.
Speaker 1: I grew up listening to these songs, and when I
Speaker 1: picked up the guitar, I started trying to play them.
Speaker 1: And so the songs that we chose for the album
Speaker 1: actually are songs that I've had guitar arrangements of for
Speaker 1: many years, many years, and um and I got together
Speaker 1: with another great guitar player, John Pitsorelli, and John and
Speaker 1: I basically went back and forth and sort of solidified
Speaker 1: the arrangements and then cut them with two guitars, and
Speaker 1: that that basically is the is the core of the album.
Speaker 1: That those were the basic tracks. We cut them over
Speaker 1: about a two week period, but then we came back
Speaker 1: and worked on them. Uh, worked on the vocals, added
Speaker 1: solos here and there, and sometimes some rhythms, sometimes some drums.
Speaker 1: This you did your workspace at home the barn, going
Speaker 1: back starting to about two years ago in and you've
Speaker 1: said that that work in that way you and a
Speaker 1: and another guitarist is a little bit of a break
Speaker 1: from your normal m O. Yeah, it is. What I'm
Speaker 1: used to doing is write a song on the guitar,
Speaker 1: and then I typically will take it to my bass
Speaker 1: player and Jimmy Johnson or and or my my piano
Speaker 1: player Larry Golding's or Jeff Babco. That basically is the
Speaker 1: process of taking it from the guitar and teaching it
Speaker 1: to a band, typically Mike Landau on electric guitar, Jimmy
Speaker 1: Johnson on bass, Steve Gadd on drums, and you know
Speaker 1: that will be the rhythm section that cuts the song.
Speaker 1: But in this case, I wanted to keep the guitar
Speaker 1: the center of the arrangement because above all, these are
Speaker 1: guitar arrangements, my own guitar arrangements of these songs that
Speaker 1: I've lived with so many years, so it's got a
Speaker 1: really intimate quality to it. Two people sitting playing guitar,
Speaker 1: particularly on your version of God Bless the Child. I
Speaker 1: was struck by just how intimate that was. Then that's
Speaker 1: good shall get Then that's not loose, so the vibe said,
Speaker 1: and it still is nude. Mom may have popa me
Speaker 1: have God Bless the Child. That's God his own. And
Speaker 1: I was wondering. You know, you say these are songs
Speaker 1: that you first learned you were, say, fourteen fifteen years old,
Speaker 1: learning guitar um and is this the way you would
Speaker 1: have played them with your family, with your brothers, or
Speaker 1: say on the vineyard growing up playing with Danny Korchmar.
Speaker 1: You know that this two guitar approaches it a throwback
Speaker 1: in a way to that time. Yeah, some of them were.
Speaker 1: I think relatively few. Um of these songs would I
Speaker 1: have played with my family, although my brother and living
Speaker 1: soon and I might have shared a couple of and
Speaker 1: Cooch and I actually did play God Bless the Child
Speaker 1: together in in the sixties when we were here in
Speaker 1: New York with our our Flying Machine band. Um that
Speaker 1: was that was one of our our favorites. Uh we
Speaker 1: We did a number of songs from that era actually,
Speaker 1: and the Flying Machine so yeah, it's um. They they've
Speaker 1: all been with me for a long time. And I
Speaker 1: wanted to keep the focus on the guitar because often
Speaker 1: when you when you bring in a rhythm section, the
Speaker 1: guitar sort of disappears into it, you know, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to have that stay central. We wanted our songs
Speaker 1: to be simple and cut down to their essentials, but
Speaker 1: we also wanted to acknowledge how sophisticated and how rich
Speaker 1: these things were harmonically. You know, Back in those days,
Speaker 1: songs were written to be sung by anonymous you didn't
Speaker 1: know who would sing it. They were usually sold as
Speaker 1: sheet music. For one thirty three and a third LPs
Speaker 1: came out, they people started listening to these, you know,
Speaker 1: to recordings of these songs, but a lot of them
Speaker 1: were written before recording was good enough. You'd want someone
Speaker 1: to sit down at the piano with a sheet music,
Speaker 1: you know. I just think that nowadays, when we listen
Speaker 1: to recorded music, we're listening to a performance. We're listening
Speaker 1: to a specific artist and their statement of this song.
Speaker 1: But it's different from a song being enough on its
Speaker 1: own to hold your attention to to do its work,
Speaker 1: or as you're saying, because sheet music was so popular,
Speaker 1: made to be sung at home right exactly, or in
Speaker 1: the pub or at a party or yeah, and that
Speaker 1: gets too although we we we lose track of this
Speaker 1: sometimes that that gets to the almost folk music quality
Speaker 1: of this kind of stuff, that that there was a
Speaker 1: communal experience. These songs went out into the world, not
Speaker 1: just on records, but his sheet music and went into
Speaker 1: people's home. Some of these songs deep act to the twenties.
Speaker 1: Probably the most modern is Moon River, but some of
Speaker 1: them my Blue Heaven, go back to the twenties, and
Speaker 1: I was struck by how foundational they were too, even
Speaker 1: that rocket experience in the fifties and sixties, because of
Speaker 1: course My Blue Heaven Fats Domino great version of it.
Speaker 1: But even I was amazed. When I was researching teach
Speaker 1: me Tonight what you do on this record, I was amazed.
Speaker 1: I didn't know Stevie Wonder in the four Tops cut
Speaker 1: it um and and a little different than your version. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, my version is very much defined by my
Speaker 1: guitar technique and what my voice can do. So those
Speaker 1: limiting sort of lenses give it a sound. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's important that when you do a song. You you
Speaker 1: bring something new to it. You don't want to just
Speaker 1: copy something that someone else has done. What you're going
Speaker 1: to do is get a sort of a pale imitation
Speaker 1: of it. You need to you need to take it
Speaker 1: somewhere new and again. These songs have been made me
Speaker 1: for for a long time. But my my point is
Speaker 1: this that when you listen to music today, you're listening
Speaker 1: to a performance the way this person performed it on
Speaker 1: that record. That's what you're hearing, But you're not hearing
Speaker 1: the song. You know, if you try to get these
Speaker 1: songs to stand on their own, some of them do, certainly.
Speaker 1: But these songs from the American Songbook, you know as
Speaker 1: done by Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, Sarah Vaughan and
Speaker 1: Dinah Washington, Nat King, Cole written by the Gershman's or
Speaker 1: Cole Porter or Frank Lesser, you know, the Rogers and Hammerstein,
Speaker 1: Rogers and Heart Learner and Low. They are at such
Speaker 1: a high level of musical sophistication, and all they have
Speaker 1: to sell them are the melody, the lyric and the
Speaker 1: harmonic context or the changes the arrangement. Then they go
Speaker 1: out into the world and get repeated a million times.
Speaker 1: But the songwriting craft itself is such a high quality.
Speaker 1: There really where we peeked out. And certainly they're what
Speaker 1: informed my music when I was growing up, with a
Speaker 1: number of other things blues, uh, Celtic music that's sort
Speaker 1: of English, Protestant hymnal Afro, Cuban music, Brazilian music. They
Speaker 1: also informed Lennon McCartney. They sang till there was You
Speaker 1: from from the music Man. These songs have had a
Speaker 1: huge influence on that generation of songwriters, and I think
Speaker 1: it's important to reintroduce them to keep them alive in
Speaker 1: our musical culture, because they're really an education. You know,
Speaker 1: not to be too preachy about it, you know, but
Speaker 1: they are great preach. Please go ahead, brother. There's a
Speaker 1: right cold and haze on the meadow. There's a righte
Speaker 1: cold in haze on the meadow. The corn is as
Speaker 1: I as an elefantsa and looks like it's climb and clean.
Speaker 1: Do the guy. You talked about them as an education.
Speaker 1: It was important to your parents, to your mother to
Speaker 1: educate you in this way. You talked about taking trips
Speaker 1: from Durham, North Carolina, up to New York every two
Speaker 1: or three months, to go to museums, but also to
Speaker 1: go to Broadway shows. That's right. She would take two
Speaker 1: or three of us. There were five of us kids,
Speaker 1: and she take a batch up um, usually the older ones,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, expose us to a little big city.
Speaker 1: You know. When I was twelve, I got my first
Speaker 1: guitar on one of those trips to New York. You know,
Speaker 1: So that was I had played the cello before that,
Speaker 1: but but very reluctantly and not very well, although I
Speaker 1: think I think it did give me a you know,
Speaker 1: contributed also to what musical sund I had. So this
Speaker 1: first guitar is something you mentioned in break point. You
Speaker 1: say you got at home, restrung it pretty much immediately
Speaker 1: changed the nylon strings out for steel strings, right, and uh,
Speaker 1: your brother spray painted it blue. Yeah, he didn't do
Speaker 1: it right away. That was a couple of years later
Speaker 1: that he got hold of it. He hung it up
Speaker 1: in the closet by one of its strengths. He basically
Speaker 1: pulled the string out, wrapped it around the closet pole
Speaker 1: so that was suspended by a string, and then just
Speaker 1: put newspapers underneath it and spray painted it blue all
Speaker 1: over the frets, the strings everything. He also, uh he
Speaker 1: strung it to be to an open tuning, which meant
Speaker 1: it could be played with a bottleneck, you know. So
Speaker 1: he he was just dabbling himself with it. I see. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the the the idea of blue guitar strung to
Speaker 1: an open tuning to play the blues, it was a
Speaker 1: whole concept away. Yeah, yeah, it was. And and you
Speaker 1: know at that point, I I'd gone off to school,
Speaker 1: I was no longer around, so he he just uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I probably had my next guitar by then,
Speaker 1: which I had borrowed from a from a friend of
Speaker 1: the family. He had a Gibson J forty five and
Speaker 1: uh and that was my second guitar and was this
Speaker 1: year older brother Alex spray painted. So this was something
Speaker 1: that fascinated me. You talked about when you were, I believe,
Speaker 1: a junior in high school in Great Point. You talked
Speaker 1: about coming home for that year and playing in his band.
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about that. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: it was a typical high school garage band, you know,
Speaker 1: Alex said, you know, as I as I say in
Speaker 1: the in the memoir, he had really taken root in
Speaker 1: the South and the Southern culture, and he had discovered
Speaker 1: soul music, you know, and brought it into the house
Speaker 1: and all of us were just had our our minds
Speaker 1: expanded by Ray Charleson don Cove and Jackie Wilson and
Speaker 1: the Coasters and uh, you know, the Stax volt stable
Speaker 1: and so many and in the motown uh sounds and
Speaker 1: stuff in the in the early sixties. It was just
Speaker 1: amazingly rich ground and it changed everything for me. But
Speaker 1: he wanted to play these songs and um with a
Speaker 1: number of other high school students. We we got together
Speaker 1: a guy, Cam Shannon played Oregon, Vic Lipscomb played the bass,
Speaker 1: I played guitar. Alex sang um and I can't remember
Speaker 1: who our drummer was right now, but at any rate,
Speaker 1: we started hiring out to play play uh sort of
Speaker 1: fraternity parties at at the college, you know, University of
Speaker 1: North Carolina was the was what the town was basically
Speaker 1: built around. So we played for those audiences. We played
Speaker 1: for sock hops or uh you know, senior proms or
Speaker 1: whatever we could get. And we we you know, we
Speaker 1: had a U haul in a station wagon and we
Speaker 1: we hauled this stuff around and play and you were
Speaker 1: called the fabulous course aeras the fabulous Okay, and this
Speaker 1: kind of music in North Carolina at that time played
Speaker 1: for those audiences. This is a culture called beach music.
Speaker 1: Can you can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, beach music was was what was played from Washington,
Speaker 1: d c. Down To the beginnings of Florida. It was
Speaker 1: like there was an entire seen spring break summertime on
Speaker 1: the water. It was where college students went from from
Speaker 1: all over the South. They went to the to the beach.
Speaker 1: And the bands that played those places, those centers of
Speaker 1: sort of you know, exuberance and uh, disinhibition, those sort
Speaker 1: of party centrals. There were bands that played those and
Speaker 1: that that was known as beach music. Primarily it was
Speaker 1: sold African American artists and uh, you know, it just
Speaker 1: caught on. It was a huge thing in the South,
Speaker 1: and we wanted to play those tunes. There was a
Speaker 1: circuit in the South. You know, this is in the
Speaker 1: segregated South in the early sixties and late fifties. You know,
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement was definitely on the University of
Speaker 1: North Carolina at Chapel Hill was was an early center
Speaker 1: of of resistance in the and you know, this was
Speaker 1: going on all over the South at that time. Black
Speaker 1: acts that wanted to play the South had to be
Speaker 1: extremely careful you know where they where they they stepped
Speaker 1: and uh so there was a group of clubs called
Speaker 1: the Chitland Circuit. You know. Um, there were a couple
Speaker 1: of clubs in in Raleigh and in Durham that we're
Speaker 1: on that circuit. And my brother just he took us
Speaker 1: to those places. I was a year younger than he,
Speaker 1: but he, you know, he said, come on, we're gonna
Speaker 1: hear We're gonna hear James Brown. It's gonna take your
Speaker 1: head off. So it was too It was amazing going
Speaker 1: back to that moment. You just brought up the civil
Speaker 1: rights error in the South on an American standard. You do.
Speaker 1: You've got to be carefully taught. You got to be
Speaker 1: talked to hate fear. You got to be talk from
Speaker 1: year to year. It's got to be drunk in your
Speaker 1: dear little here, You've got to be carefully talked. A
Speaker 1: song from South Pacific, you describe it as an important
Speaker 1: song to your mother. Can you tell me a little
Speaker 1: more about that and why it was appropriate for this record,
Speaker 1: which is tends more towards love songs that this record,
Speaker 1: but that song stands out, Yeah, and the plot of
Speaker 1: the musical South Pacific. It's a statement about about bigotry
Speaker 1: and about umcial hatred and and about the sort of
Speaker 1: rules that society puts down that that limit people. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know, basically what it says is that it's not
Speaker 1: human nature to hate people for this reason, just because
Speaker 1: there of another race or because there's something a general
Speaker 1: about you know that that you've arbitrarily sort of drawn
Speaker 1: a line and decided to hate people that are across
Speaker 1: that line. Um, you have to be taught to do
Speaker 1: that by your parents, by your society, by your church,
Speaker 1: by you know, your your context. You know, you have
Speaker 1: to be taught to hate. It's not natural. And that's
Speaker 1: what the song says. And it was an important song
Speaker 1: to my mom um in many ways. North Carolina was
Speaker 1: a was a culture shock to her, without a question.
Speaker 1: And your dad came from there. My dad came from
Speaker 1: North Carolina, went to the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill,
Speaker 1: and then he went to medical school at Harvard and
Speaker 1: did his residency and internship at Boston City and Mass General.
Speaker 1: And that's where he met my mom while he was
Speaker 1: he was up there, and after they married and had
Speaker 1: a home mess of kids. In a very short time,
Speaker 1: Dad moved us all down to North Carolina, where he
Speaker 1: had taken a job at U n C. Where he
Speaker 1: had gone to school and studied pre men. Anyway, from
Speaker 1: my mom, that was she was a very progressive, as
Speaker 1: was my father, very politically progressive in liberal and my
Speaker 1: dad had grown up with it and he under sort
Speaker 1: of understood it, hated it, but understood it. But my
Speaker 1: mom was just so shocked by it because she was
Speaker 1: the daughter of a fisherman from Newburyport, Massachusetts, and so
Speaker 1: she got involved inevitably in the civil rights disobedience protests,
Speaker 1: picket lines and the like. That song is a rare
Speaker 1: thing to make that kind of a statement and a
Speaker 1: musical in point of factory, those who don't know, South
Speaker 1: Pacific drew a lot of heat came to Broadway in
Speaker 1: the late forties, and and for its content, drew a
Speaker 1: fair amount of heat at the at the height of
Speaker 1: the Blacklist, that song in particular got it condemned his
Speaker 1: communist propaganda. Hard to see how but okay, well, I
Speaker 1: think tensions ran high in those days. You heard it
Speaker 1: growing up in the in the South in the fifties,
Speaker 1: and you describe the South in the fifties is as
Speaker 1: fighting the last battle of the Civil War. You're you're
Speaker 1: recording it now in putting it out on a record
Speaker 1: in Does it seem odd to you that it's still relevant,
Speaker 1: that it's still a statement in today's world. Yeah, I mean, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's remarkable. I don't think it's odd, um, because
Speaker 1: I think this kind of racial hatred or fear dies slowly.
Speaker 1: And um, I believe that some of our politicians, um,
Speaker 1: have decided to use that fear in order to court
Speaker 1: a segment of the population. I believe there's an old
Speaker 1: division in this country. We fought a Civil war to
Speaker 1: survive it, as Abraham Lincoln said, war deciding whether this nature,
Speaker 1: or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure.
Speaker 1: It is central to our history that there's a division,
Speaker 1: this North South division. And I feel as though the
Speaker 1: Republican Party has made a deal with the devil. I
Speaker 1: feel as though they have actually redivided us into sort
Speaker 1: of union and confederacy again. And you know, the entire
Speaker 1: South was democrat before, before the Civil Rights Act, and
Speaker 1: within ten years it had all flopped over to the
Speaker 1: Party of Lincoln, supposedly saying quotes the Party of Lincoln.
Speaker 1: That's why they were Democrats, because Lincoln was a republic
Speaker 1: And it's my feeling that in a way we have
Speaker 1: a Confederate administration in the in the White House. Sorry
Speaker 1: to say it. I know many people in the South
Speaker 1: will disagree with me, and it seems to me as
Speaker 1: though people have, for political reasons, re opened that wound.
Speaker 1: And so a song like this, you've got to be
Speaker 1: carefully taught to hate the people your relatives hate as
Speaker 1: just too much relevance today, that's right. Well, it's frustrating
Speaker 1: that we're making such slow progress, and I think that
Speaker 1: we have to accept it as a national priority that
Speaker 1: we get over this racial hatred and this this racial stereotyping.
Speaker 1: We have to commit ourselves to it and and get
Speaker 1: serious about it as if it were a matter of
Speaker 1: national survival, because it really is. I mean, there are
Speaker 1: things that are the people's business that we need to do,
Speaker 1: and one of them is bringing human activity in line
Speaker 1: with the health of the planet. Another is uh, finally
Speaker 1: seeing to this unique American problem of racial hateen so
Speaker 1: on American standard. Many of these songs are familiar and beloved.
Speaker 1: Moon River, the Nearness of You. There's one I'd never
Speaker 1: heard before, and I'm gonna guess you you know exactly
Speaker 1: which one I'm talking about. As easy as rolling off
Speaker 1: a lot, as easy as roll an awful long. I
Speaker 1: found it easy, baby to found love. It was as
Speaker 1: easy as rolling cigarettes. If that ain't easy, maybe they're
Speaker 1: simple things to do. For Rest, Let's cuddle. I loved cuddle.
Speaker 1: So this is a song from a nineteen eight Looney
Speaker 1: Tunes cartoon. How did it end up on this record?
Speaker 1: I remembered the song from the cartoon, you know, worked
Speaker 1: it up on the guitar, and when I played it
Speaker 1: to John Pizzarelli, who is my collaborator in this in
Speaker 1: this project, my co producer. Um. When I played it
Speaker 1: for John, you know, he loved it. He said that
Speaker 1: that's a great tune, you know. And we had to
Speaker 1: change it a little bit and expand it in a
Speaker 1: couple of places. And then it's sung by, uh, by
Speaker 1: two characters in the cartoon, male and female, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it had to be brought in line with
Speaker 1: one person singing it rather than shared. But it, But
Speaker 1: basically that's the that's the song. I went and found
Speaker 1: this cartoon online. I believe it's called Cat College and
Speaker 1: the cat Nip College with Yes, that's right, like crazy
Speaker 1: Cat and the cool cats are in school singing history
Speaker 1: swing style, and one of them is a dunce because
Speaker 1: he has no rhythm. He gets his rhythm from a
Speaker 1: cuckoo clock and then rushes off and serenades a very
Speaker 1: comely looking kitten. He's a hot kitten. That that it's true.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just had to ask. This is from
Speaker 1: a thirty eight cartoon. You probably saw it as a kid.
Speaker 1: Did you really remember it all these years? If you
Speaker 1: have a certain kind of memory for for lyrics and music,
Speaker 1: that just, um, it's a different got to be a
Speaker 1: different place in your brain. I can remember songs and Italian.
Speaker 1: I don't speak any Italian at all, but I can
Speaker 1: remember La doni mobile or unami. And it's because it's
Speaker 1: connected with a song that I remember all those words,
Speaker 1: and because it's in a musical context. But otherwise I
Speaker 1: can't remember Italian. You know, I can? So is easy
Speaker 1: as rolling off log When you remember this, what did
Speaker 1: you remember the whole cartoon? Did you remember the song
Speaker 1: the lyrics, I mean, did you have to go look
Speaker 1: it up when you were Yeah, we looked it up.
Speaker 1: I showed it to uh, to John and to Dave o'donnallld,
Speaker 1: my my other co producer, and uh, you know, they
Speaker 1: dug the song and we decided to give it a try.
Speaker 1: We we must have cut twenty two songs and all,
Speaker 1: and and only put fourteen on the records. I really
Speaker 1: was amazed by this. But also, as you you said
Speaker 1: that just the active memory, there are cartoons with songs
Speaker 1: in them. I remember, but those are songs that you
Speaker 1: go on hearing. But this one you you couldn't have
Speaker 1: heard since back then. Well, you know when I when
Speaker 1: I told Cooch, I talked to Cooch about the songs
Speaker 1: I was thinking of recording. I told him about that one,
Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, yeah, you you were always going
Speaker 1: on about that song. You know, I remember that. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're in a band with someone, you're gonna share
Speaker 1: pretty much whatever musical thoughts and directs and you have,
Speaker 1: and whatever is in there is going to come out
Speaker 1: like God Bless the Child, or like you know. Another
Speaker 1: song that Coots and I did was Pennies from Heaven
Speaker 1: or It's Only a Paper Move, both of which are
Speaker 1: on this record. Wow, so Coots knew a lot about
Speaker 1: what songs I thought were important to me. I want
Speaker 1: to ask you a little more about Breakshot. This memoir
Speaker 1: is very personal, very revealing a number of things in
Speaker 1: it you've talked about before, although there are certainly some
Speaker 1: stories that I've never heard before. But let's just start
Speaker 1: with the title breakshot. Where does that come from? You know,
Speaker 1: a breakshot in pool is where you where you rack
Speaker 1: up the balls into a triangle. They're all very neatly
Speaker 1: ordered and positioned on the pool table, and then you
Speaker 1: start the game. You break the game with the breakshot,
Speaker 1: where you where you take the Q ball and typically
Speaker 1: send it at speed into that triangle of balls and
Speaker 1: they just go everywhere. You know. It's just it's from
Speaker 1: order to chaos in a second. And that very much
Speaker 1: seemed to me to properly describe the moment in my
Speaker 1: family's life when we sort of jumped the rails and
Speaker 1: suddenly we were all in the wind. You know, in
Speaker 1: that moment, as you explained in the memoir, is in
Speaker 1: the mid sixties, that's right, nineteen nineteen sixty five for
Speaker 1: me and what was going on right then. I had
Speaker 1: spent a year at home with the year when I
Speaker 1: was in my brother's band, nineteen sixty four sixty five.
Speaker 1: At the end of that year, I realized that I'd
Speaker 1: been gone from home for too long. There was no
Speaker 1: place for me there. I just felt, well, you know,
Speaker 1: if I've got to finish up my high school, if
Speaker 1: they'll take me back at the school I left, I
Speaker 1: think I'll be better positioned that You've been going to
Speaker 1: boarding school at Milton Academy, just outside of Boston. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I thought if I went back to Milton, if
Speaker 1: they'd have me, I'd be better positioned to to apply
Speaker 1: to college. So I went back to Milton. They did
Speaker 1: take me back. They didn't have a room for me,
Speaker 1: but one of the teachers they put me up in
Speaker 1: his quarters. And things started to go downhill for me,
Speaker 1: and at the time my I didn't feel it. You know,
Speaker 1: my family had said, sure, come back home, and then
Speaker 1: I had said, no, I want to go back there.
Speaker 1: I felt like I remembered all the feelings that that
Speaker 1: why I wanted to leave in the first place. It
Speaker 1: it's a very different place today. Than it was then.
Speaker 1: But uh, it was sort of an anachronism. It was
Speaker 1: it was preparing people for a life that didn't exist anymore,
Speaker 1: like sort of a class society that didn't exist. And
Speaker 1: it's definitely changed its tune. I have two kids there now,
Speaker 1: my my two twin boys are going to Milton right now.
Speaker 1: But I didn't feel like I could talk to my parents,
Speaker 1: and they themselves were so preoccupied with the dissolution of
Speaker 1: their own marriage. And my father had had had a
Speaker 1: drinking problem for a long time, and it was it
Speaker 1: was sort of progressing to the point where he he
Speaker 1: was getting in in real desperate straits. So I just
Speaker 1: spiraled down. My family came up to see my mother's
Speaker 1: family in Newburyport over the Thanksgiving break, and while we
Speaker 1: were on that break, a family friend and a couple
Speaker 1: and one of the teachers at school. The guy was
Speaker 1: was putting me up, took my parents aside and said,
Speaker 1: you know, get over yourselves. Your son's in trouble, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I went to see a professional and he
Speaker 1: suggested that I spend a couple of weeks being, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of under observation, just to to see what how
Speaker 1: serious a situation. This was that he didn't want to
Speaker 1: take chances with with my survival. I went in for
Speaker 1: two weeks and and stayed there for ten months. Spent
Speaker 1: my entire college fund on a mental hospital. This was
Speaker 1: this was mc McLean Hospital. Yeah, a great place. But
Speaker 1: I don't think I benefited at all from any psychotherapy there.
Speaker 1: I think that basically the fact that I had dismissed
Speaker 1: my family's expectations of me, that was the main thing
Speaker 1: I got was freedom was was Okay, we don't have
Speaker 1: any expectations of you anymore. You know, it's it's canceled
Speaker 1: because you had gone back to Milton with the idea
Speaker 1: of going to college. Your father was a doctor. You've
Speaker 1: said you were interested in chemistry. You might have ended
Speaker 1: up as a chemistry or pharmacist or write something down
Speaker 1: that medicine and Jason, well, the well the pharmacist is
Speaker 1: a is a joke, just you know, referring to my
Speaker 1: my trouble with addiction for many years. But but yes, really,
Speaker 1: uh my interest in chemistry, you know, but in fact
Speaker 1: I was you know, that did interest me. But I
Speaker 1: was getting very mixed signals from my family about what
Speaker 1: their expectations were, and I was a very driven by
Speaker 1: my sense of duty and my and what people expected
Speaker 1: of me. I was a good son. I was the
Speaker 1: sort of opposite pull to my brother Alex, who was
Speaker 1: a real rebel and who, when my father was away
Speaker 1: for two years, went to war with my mother in
Speaker 1: the most alarming way. So I tried the other tack.
Speaker 1: I tried to be concerned for my mom was pretty
Speaker 1: upset during that period time when my dad was away.
Speaker 1: So I tried to be as helpful as I could,
Speaker 1: you know, And I took as my own responsibility her
Speaker 1: sort of her state, her mental state, her spirit. Rich relations,
Speaker 1: bring crusts of bread and such. You can help yourself.
Speaker 1: Don't don't take too much. Mom may have top of me.
Speaker 1: Have a godless chime that can stand up and saying
Speaker 1: I've got my You're dad went for two years to
Speaker 1: the South Pole. Is that right? Yeah? It was between
Speaker 1: fifty seven and fifty nine, I believe, or fifty six
Speaker 1: and fifty eight, Probably between fifty six. Yeah. I was
Speaker 1: wondering because I was thinking about the freedom you're describing
Speaker 1: this being free of expectations. You really removed yourself from
Speaker 1: the world for a moment. Do you think that your
Speaker 1: father might have had a similar feeling disappearing to the
Speaker 1: south Pole. Yes, I do think so. Well, it's clear
Speaker 1: that he found his marriage intolerable because ultimately it ended,
Speaker 1: But it was also my father had his own sort
Speaker 1: of tragic childhood. His mother died giving birth to him.
Speaker 1: His grandfather had delivered him and felt responsible, and himself
Speaker 1: was dead within two months of her death. His father
Speaker 1: fell off the deep end and disappeared down into a bottle,
Speaker 1: and my father was raised next door by his aunt.
Speaker 1: And I think my dad always had a very conditional
Speaker 1: feeling about about being in his life and a sense
Speaker 1: of shame and questioning self doubt surrounding his his childhood
Speaker 1: is the circumstances of his birth. I believe that this
Speaker 1: was a sort of engine that drove him to perfection.
Speaker 1: You know, he was a real star academician, and he
Speaker 1: was He built a medical school at the University of
Speaker 1: North Carolina. He was the dean of medicine there. It
Speaker 1: went from a two year program to a four year
Speaker 1: program under his his auspices. But the thing is, he
Speaker 1: had always identified with the polar explorers, and I believe
Speaker 1: that's because he felt so isolated and he felt the
Speaker 1: sense of will and of uh fortitude and of us
Speaker 1: as sort of facing up to hardship that that he
Speaker 1: identified with it in Shackleton and ross In, uh In
Speaker 1: Scott in Ahmudsen in Uh, you know, all of these
Speaker 1: polar explorers that he when I when he died, I
Speaker 1: inherited his books and he had an extreme library on
Speaker 1: all these guys, you know. And so when he was drafted,
Speaker 1: they took a rain check on his military service during
Speaker 1: his education becoming a doctor, because you know, they thought
Speaker 1: he'd be more valuable to them once he was a doctor. So, uh,
Speaker 1: they took a rain check, but they drafted him in
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five. He was stationed at but As the
Speaker 1: Naval Hospital, being a Navy doc. That was a very
Speaker 1: bad fit for my dad and U. When somebody came
Speaker 1: up and said, Admiral Bird is leading his final expedition
Speaker 1: to the South Pole. We're gonna it was the International
Speaker 1: Geophysical Year. It was Admiral Bird, and you know he
Speaker 1: was putting it together. He wasn't there, but uh, you
Speaker 1: know they're going to go to the South Pole. They're
Speaker 1: gonna send a crew of Navy e sebes down there
Speaker 1: to build this scientific base at McMurdo Sound, which is
Speaker 1: like a city on the ice now, and there was
Speaker 1: nothing there when when he went and and so my
Speaker 1: dad volunteered. He said, I'll be the doctor for this.
Speaker 1: Two men or so that's they're going down to build
Speaker 1: this this, you know, And and he basically disappeared because
Speaker 1: there was no communication. You know. Sometimes you could bounce
Speaker 1: a ham radio signal loss the ionosphere or whatever, and
Speaker 1: then back down to Earth you could get a signal
Speaker 1: to Australia and then someone would forward that, right. But
Speaker 1: letters came once a year when the supply ship picked
Speaker 1: him up. Once a year, good heavens, packets of letters,
Speaker 1: all numbered, that we would read and in order every day.
Speaker 1: You must have missed him terribly. I'm a similar lot,
Speaker 1: but I think my brother Alex really suffered from from
Speaker 1: his absence. In your own moment of isolation at McClean,
Speaker 1: you found this kind of freedom and you were able
Speaker 1: from that to pursue a career in music. Is that
Speaker 1: what you knew you might want to do before you
Speaker 1: went there? Yeah, you know. I played in a band,
Speaker 1: Um Cooch and I had a a duo together. It
Speaker 1: was part of what Cooch used to call the great
Speaker 1: folk Scare of the early sixties. This would have been
Speaker 1: on Martha's Vineyard. On Martha's Vineyard and in Boston and
Speaker 1: in New York there was a very strong scene folk
Speaker 1: music scene, great country, blues, Celtic music, jug band music,
Speaker 1: you know, great stuff. And it was an easy way
Speaker 1: to get started. You just needed a guitar on a microphone,
Speaker 1: you know. So but at any rate, I saw myself
Speaker 1: doing that and I used to play it open mic
Speaker 1: nights and stuff and and Cooch and I actually when
Speaker 1: I was fifteen and he was seventeen, we actually had
Speaker 1: a gig together on the vineyard at a sort of
Speaker 1: summer iteration of a folk club that was in Boston.
Speaker 1: It was an incredible period, you know, it was. It
Speaker 1: was great. We were listening to a lot of music
Speaker 1: and there was a sense that we could do this,
Speaker 1: you know. So one so I got I broke free. Um,
Speaker 1: I got together with Cooch again, and he said, let's
Speaker 1: go to New York and do it. Let's go. You know,
Speaker 1: I was eighteen and free. Things moved not instantly forward
Speaker 1: for you, but quickly enough. Within a few years you
Speaker 1: were in London. You cut a record for Apple, and
Speaker 1: then you came to the States and and you and
Speaker 1: Peter Asher, we're looking for a record deal. And I
Speaker 1: was really struck by something that comes out and breakshot
Speaker 1: and this is just amazing. You talk about playing at
Speaker 1: the Newport Folk Festival in July of nineteen sixty nine. You,
Speaker 1: I guess didn't have a record deal at that point,
Speaker 1: but I just want to linger on who was on
Speaker 1: the bill. That would have been Joni Mitchell, Johnny Cash,
Speaker 1: Van Morrison, Harlo Guthrie, Chris Chris Stafferson, Pete Seeger and
Speaker 1: Muddy Waters. Wow, talk about getting your money's worth. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it was. It was a great bill. And and of
Speaker 1: course in those days, the Newport posts Folk Festival was
Speaker 1: a big deal. You know. That was like if you
Speaker 1: were in the business and a lot of people were
Speaker 1: you you showed up at that when George Ween called
Speaker 1: and said will you come play this festival? That was
Speaker 1: where you got hurt and um and so so yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, Dylan had gone electric. There h two summers previous,
Speaker 1: uh in sixty seven or sixty eight, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: which one, but you know that had been a big
Speaker 1: six I think actually see change it was a Titanic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but Doug Kirshaw was also on the bill, the Raging Cajun,
Speaker 1: you know, and uh um Man who else? Uh it was?
Speaker 1: It was. It was a great year just because I
Speaker 1: worked at Rolling Stone for a long time and from
Speaker 1: working on an anniversary issue. I know something else that
Speaker 1: happened in Newport that year, which was the magazines then
Speaker 1: chief photographer Baron Wollman was backstage just before you played.
Speaker 1: He shot a couple of frames of you, and a
Speaker 1: couple of years later that became your first Rolling Stone cover.
Speaker 1: I just want to pull this out for those of
Speaker 1: you at home. It's a it's a black and white photo,
Speaker 1: quite striking. Yeah, that's uh, you know, that's the severe
Speaker 1: sensitive look there. When we're working at that anniversary issue. Uh.
Speaker 1: We got a quote from Peter Asher about that picture.
Speaker 1: He said, that's the James I know. Well, he is intense.
Speaker 1: He can scare the ship out of people with a
Speaker 1: stare like that. Peter knows me. I guess I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have thought so, but you would not have described yourself
Speaker 1: as a scary guy. No, I wouldn't ask my wife,
Speaker 1: what do you think when you look at that photo? Now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still that same person. That's that That's
Speaker 1: the the sense that you get. One of the things
Speaker 1: that you learn as you get older is that you're
Speaker 1: the same person that or when you're seventeen. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you know that. I know that too, you know, but
Speaker 1: you'll be that person for the rest of your life,
Speaker 1: you don't. You feel like, um, someone who's when you're
Speaker 1: eighteen and you see somebody who's seventy, you think, well
Speaker 1: that they speak a totally different language and come from
Speaker 1: a different world. You know, I'll never be that person,
Speaker 1: But in fact that person is still an eighteen year
Speaker 1: old inside. Well, you're going on tour this year. You're
Speaker 1: gonna be playing shows with Bonnie Rait and Jackson Brown. Yeah,
Speaker 1: talk to me about that. How is touring change for you?
Speaker 1: You've talked about the poll between the road and the
Speaker 1: domesticity of home life. Does the road still have a
Speaker 1: pull for you? Oh? Yeah, well, you know, of course
Speaker 1: it does. I think of it as as what my
Speaker 1: work is, you know, Um, ultimately that's what I do
Speaker 1: for a living because of the connection with the audience. Yes,
Speaker 1: and also it's the thing that makes me an income.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the thing that we live off in
Speaker 1: my in my family. It's uh, it's my work. And
Speaker 1: I think that musicians sometimes presumed to call themselves artists,
Speaker 1: but if I am an artist, it's my art. You know,
Speaker 1: it's my medium and that and and recorded music is
Speaker 1: my also my medium. And how things change for you
Speaker 1: on the road and the many years you've been playing, well, um,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's a known quantity to me now
Speaker 1: and I'm familiar with with what it is and how
Speaker 1: to do it. I have a method, so I'm better
Speaker 1: at surviving it now. And when you say you have
Speaker 1: a method, do you mean a method of survival or okay,
Speaker 1: a method of getting through it, of getting enough rest,
Speaker 1: of getting the right food, getting through the the couple
Speaker 1: of weeks until the next break. Also how to balance
Speaker 1: home life and life on the road, so you just
Speaker 1: sort of get better at it. I'm told you traveled
Speaker 1: here today to New York with your dog. Did your
Speaker 1: dog come on the on the road with you? No? No,
Speaker 1: not so far. You know, coming to New York is
Speaker 1: stressed enough for an old dog. You know, she's she's
Speaker 1: an old girl, uh, twelve years old. Now that's that's
Speaker 1: getting getting up there, even for a pug. A little
Speaker 1: dogs seem to live longer. We're hoping that she will
Speaker 1: be with us for a while yet, but you know,
Speaker 1: she's getting what's her name ting t I n G.
Speaker 1: She's named after a soft drink that they sell in
Speaker 1: the Caribbean. I think it's a Jamaican soft drink. Tastes
Speaker 1: like grapefruit, very sweet, tangy, most refreshing. I recommend it heartily.
Speaker 1: Just before we go, I want to ask you about
Speaker 1: something in breakshot that that struck me. When you're talking
Speaker 1: about music, you talk about how it's true to the
Speaker 1: laws of physics. Music is not arbitrary, it's empirically real
Speaker 1: and true. It follows the rules. Music takes us outside
Speaker 1: the prison of the self, which is an ecstatic thing.
Speaker 1: And one thing I was by you know, your your
Speaker 1: dad was a man of science in medicine, and here
Speaker 1: you are talking about music in a somewhat scientific way.
Speaker 1: And I wondered if after all of this freedom and
Speaker 1: searching and breaking away, there was also a sense of
Speaker 1: coming back to some of those core values you grew
Speaker 1: up with. Oh no, I think I've always been my father.
Speaker 1: It's a huge uh, you know, a very large percentage
Speaker 1: of who I am, and uh, I think I identify
Speaker 1: myself in his image. Really, I admire him hugely. I
Speaker 1: love him and I miss him. I'm glad he's not
Speaker 1: seeing what's happening to our government, but because that would
Speaker 1: definitely send him around the band. But I wish I
Speaker 1: could talk to him about it, tell you the truth.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, No, my dad was a remarkable man.
Speaker 1: My mother too, remarkable woman. But m hm, so you
Speaker 1: you didn't follow your dad in the medicine, but you
Speaker 1: are out there ministering to the people in your own way.
Speaker 1: Well know, Uh, I think my dad was really glad
Speaker 1: to see me make a go of it in music.
Speaker 1: You know, I think I never got even a hint
Speaker 1: of resistance from him that that I shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker 1: He could easily have said, uh, snap, to get with it, kid,
Speaker 1: you know, this's your chances are absolutely nothing, and you've
Speaker 1: got a good education. Go for it, you know, get
Speaker 1: back in line, pull you, get over yourself, you know.
Speaker 1: But you know he didn't. He gave me. He let
Speaker 1: me run and all of those expectations that I found
Speaker 1: it so hard to escape from, almost you know, like chemotherapy, hard.
Speaker 1: You know, all of those things, uh were my own anxiety.
Speaker 1: It wasn't born home by my folks. Uh, they were
Speaker 1: really glad for me. So your own prison of the self,
Speaker 1: as it were in music in that sense, was your escape. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. I think in that way music saved my
Speaker 1: But I was lucky also to survive. I did some
Speaker 1: very stupid uh you know some years that we're just
Speaker 1: really high risk, unnecessarily so, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: around us died. You know, we lost so many really
Speaker 1: talented people. Thought I'd see you one more time again.
Speaker 1: There's just a few things are coming my way this
Speaker 1: time around as fire and well, we're we'required to still
Speaker 1: have you with us. And I just wanna thank you
Speaker 1: for being here. Inside the Studio. Thank you, Joe. It's
Speaker 1: nice to talk to you. Inside the Studio is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.