1 00:00:16,271 --> 00:00:16,711 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:23,191 --> 00:00:25,511 Speaker 2: I had all the skin was burned off my face 3 00:00:25,631 --> 00:00:30,351 Speaker 2: and my left hand was all the skin was burned 4 00:00:30,351 --> 00:00:32,911 Speaker 2: off and the bones were sticking out. 5 00:00:33,031 --> 00:00:36,031 Speaker 3: I mean, we kept saying, our interest is what's the 6 00:00:36,071 --> 00:00:38,631 Speaker 3: identity of the bomber and who was the paymaster? That's 7 00:00:38,671 --> 00:00:39,431 Speaker 3: what we want to track. 8 00:00:41,231 --> 00:00:44,591 Speaker 1: Hey, Fiasco listeners, we are now halfway through our season 9 00:00:44,671 --> 00:00:47,751 Speaker 1: on the Iran Contra Scandal, which feels like the perfect 10 00:00:47,751 --> 00:00:50,150 Speaker 1: time to take a break from our regular episodes and 11 00:00:50,231 --> 00:00:54,591 Speaker 1: share something a little different. It's a conversation with two reporters, 12 00:00:54,831 --> 00:00:58,271 Speaker 1: Martha Honey and Tony Abergan, a husband and wife team 13 00:00:58,551 --> 00:01:02,071 Speaker 1: covered the Contra War in Central America in the mid 14 00:01:02,191 --> 00:01:05,831 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. Martha and Tony were living in and reporting 15 00:01:05,871 --> 00:01:10,551 Speaker 1: from Costa Rica. Costa Rica, which is located just south 16 00:01:10,591 --> 00:01:13,670 Speaker 1: of Nicaragua, was a peaceful country that had abolished its 17 00:01:13,791 --> 00:01:16,551 Speaker 1: army and was using the money on infrastructure and education. 18 00:01:17,511 --> 00:01:19,791 Speaker 1: For Martha and Toni, it was an ideal place to 19 00:01:19,871 --> 00:01:22,711 Speaker 1: raise their kids, but it was also a good place 20 00:01:22,791 --> 00:01:23,871 Speaker 1: for a couple of reporters. 21 00:01:24,311 --> 00:01:26,791 Speaker 2: Although Costa Rica was nice and peaceful, there were wars 22 00:01:26,791 --> 00:01:30,111 Speaker 2: going on in Nicaragua and El Salvador and Guatemala and 23 00:01:31,071 --> 00:01:34,871 Speaker 2: Costa Rica was not in those wars, but close enough 24 00:01:34,871 --> 00:01:36,031 Speaker 2: that we could report on them. 25 00:01:36,191 --> 00:01:38,351 Speaker 3: Except what we didn't realize at the time was that 26 00:01:38,551 --> 00:01:41,231 Speaker 3: just about the time we relocated there, the CIA was 27 00:01:41,271 --> 00:01:44,191 Speaker 3: also in the process of tripling the size of its 28 00:01:44,311 --> 00:01:45,751 Speaker 3: operations in Costa Rica. 29 00:01:46,791 --> 00:01:49,551 Speaker 1: As you may remember from episode three, and it's okay 30 00:01:49,591 --> 00:01:53,231 Speaker 1: if you don't, the Contras were not one unified army. 31 00:01:54,151 --> 00:01:57,351 Speaker 1: There were several leaders in factions fighting against the Sandinista 32 00:01:57,351 --> 00:02:00,671 Speaker 1: government in Nicaragua, and the war was being waged on 33 00:02:00,751 --> 00:02:05,231 Speaker 1: two fronts, the north and the south. So far this season, 34 00:02:05,471 --> 00:02:08,270 Speaker 1: you've been hearing mostly about the northern front, where the 35 00:02:08,351 --> 00:02:12,791 Speaker 1: Nicaragua Democratic Force known as the FDN was operating out 36 00:02:12,791 --> 00:02:17,511 Speaker 1: of Honduras. In Costa Rica, Martha and Tony were close 37 00:02:17,591 --> 00:02:21,111 Speaker 1: to the southern front of the war. There, the Contras 38 00:02:21,111 --> 00:02:25,271 Speaker 1: were led by a man named Eden Pastora. Pastora was 39 00:02:25,271 --> 00:02:28,751 Speaker 1: a former Sandinista who had grown disillusioned and alienated from 40 00:02:28,751 --> 00:02:32,951 Speaker 1: the leftist movement. The Contra forces under Pastora's command had 41 00:02:32,951 --> 00:02:36,471 Speaker 1: a reputation for being less brutal than the FDN, as 42 00:02:36,471 --> 00:02:39,471 Speaker 1: you'll hear in this interview, Martha and Tony's time in 43 00:02:39,511 --> 00:02:42,911 Speaker 1: Costa Rica came to be defined by one incident, an 44 00:02:42,911 --> 00:02:47,591 Speaker 1: assassination attempt against Eden Pastora. It happened during a press 45 00:02:47,591 --> 00:02:51,431 Speaker 1: conference that Tony was covering for ABC News. A bomb 46 00:02:51,551 --> 00:02:55,711 Speaker 1: killed four people and left Tony seriously injured. The incident 47 00:02:55,751 --> 00:02:57,911 Speaker 1: turned out to be the beginning of an ordeal that 48 00:02:57,951 --> 00:03:01,111 Speaker 1: would drag on for years, as Tony and Martha set 49 00:03:01,111 --> 00:03:04,071 Speaker 1: out to figure out the bomber's identity and ended up 50 00:03:04,111 --> 00:03:06,391 Speaker 1: as the plaintiffs in a lawsuit against the number of 51 00:03:06,431 --> 00:03:10,391 Speaker 1: Americans involved in Iran Contra. But before we get into 52 00:03:10,431 --> 00:03:13,631 Speaker 1: all that, let's start with Martha and Tony talking about 53 00:03:13,671 --> 00:03:16,071 Speaker 1: how hard it was to convince their editors that the 54 00:03:16,111 --> 00:03:18,911 Speaker 1: Contras even had a presence in Costa Rica. 55 00:03:19,511 --> 00:03:22,831 Speaker 3: The official story was that all of the infrastructure and 56 00:03:22,871 --> 00:03:26,231 Speaker 3: the war against Nicaragua was out of Honduras the Northern Front, 57 00:03:26,471 --> 00:03:29,951 Speaker 3: and we moved to Costa Rica, which became known as 58 00:03:29,991 --> 00:03:32,991 Speaker 3: the Southern Front. And because Costa Rica had abolished its army, 59 00:03:33,031 --> 00:03:36,231 Speaker 3: didn't have an army and was officially neutral, the Costa 60 00:03:36,311 --> 00:03:38,791 Speaker 3: Rican government and the US government both denied that there 61 00:03:38,831 --> 00:03:40,431 Speaker 3: was anything going on in Costa Rica. 62 00:03:41,391 --> 00:03:44,751 Speaker 1: When you arrived, could you see Contras around you or 63 00:03:44,991 --> 00:03:46,151 Speaker 1: was it obvious that they were there. 64 00:03:46,231 --> 00:03:48,631 Speaker 3: Well, that was the interesting thing that when we would 65 00:03:48,631 --> 00:03:52,391 Speaker 3: call our editors in particularly in Washington, and say we've 66 00:03:52,391 --> 00:03:54,271 Speaker 3: seen this or that, and they say, oh, no, no, no, no, 67 00:03:54,351 --> 00:03:56,231 Speaker 3: it can't be. We're told by the State Department, we're 68 00:03:56,271 --> 00:03:58,151 Speaker 3: told by the White House that there's nothing going on 69 00:03:58,191 --> 00:04:01,831 Speaker 3: in Costa Rica. But there would be journalists from the 70 00:04:01,871 --> 00:04:04,271 Speaker 3: local press who would go up to see to the 71 00:04:04,351 --> 00:04:06,711 Speaker 3: Quandra camps, and they always had to say that they 72 00:04:06,751 --> 00:04:09,831 Speaker 3: went deep inside Nicaragua. In fact, when we first a 73 00:04:09,831 --> 00:04:11,711 Speaker 3: few months after we arrived, we were taken up to 74 00:04:11,751 --> 00:04:14,311 Speaker 3: a contra camp. It was in Costa Rica, and so 75 00:04:14,711 --> 00:04:17,431 Speaker 3: that was becoming better known. And there were reports of 76 00:04:18,111 --> 00:04:22,551 Speaker 3: hospitals in private homes right in our neighborhood that were 77 00:04:22,791 --> 00:04:25,231 Speaker 3: hospitals for wounded Contras that they were being brought down 78 00:04:25,231 --> 00:04:28,231 Speaker 3: to San Jose for recuperation. Sometimes it would be exposed 79 00:04:28,271 --> 00:04:30,111 Speaker 3: by neighbors or whatever and would make it into the 80 00:04:30,111 --> 00:04:33,151 Speaker 3: local press. So it was just anybody who opened their 81 00:04:33,151 --> 00:04:35,871 Speaker 3: eyes would see what was going on. And then we 82 00:04:35,991 --> 00:04:39,591 Speaker 3: very quickly began to develop sources who told us much more. 83 00:04:39,831 --> 00:04:42,151 Speaker 3: I mean, there was at that point the government of 84 00:04:42,191 --> 00:04:46,671 Speaker 3: Costa Rica was really very much in collaboration with the US, 85 00:04:46,751 --> 00:04:49,671 Speaker 3: and the deal was that they were getting enormous amounts 86 00:04:49,671 --> 00:04:53,151 Speaker 3: of economic aid in return for the creation of the 87 00:04:53,191 --> 00:04:57,431 Speaker 3: Southern fronting the presidents allowing the presence of it, and 88 00:04:57,471 --> 00:04:58,191 Speaker 3: just to be. 89 00:04:58,151 --> 00:05:01,911 Speaker 1: Clear, like this is eighty three eighty four, is there 90 00:05:01,951 --> 00:05:06,950 Speaker 1: anything in the public realm about the US using Costa 91 00:05:07,031 --> 00:05:09,711 Speaker 1: Rica as a base for contra activity. 92 00:05:10,191 --> 00:05:12,231 Speaker 2: There was much more attention to what was going on 93 00:05:12,271 --> 00:05:15,031 Speaker 2: in the north from Honduras because that was where the 94 00:05:15,111 --> 00:05:17,991 Speaker 2: FDN and the main contra force was, and just about 95 00:05:18,031 --> 00:05:20,031 Speaker 2: all the news was about that, and it was it 96 00:05:20,151 --> 00:05:24,231 Speaker 2: was hard to convince our editors and people, especially Americans, 97 00:05:24,351 --> 00:05:26,511 Speaker 2: It was a much harder sell trying to convince them 98 00:05:26,511 --> 00:05:29,190 Speaker 2: that there was something important happening in the on the 99 00:05:29,231 --> 00:05:32,991 Speaker 2: Southern Front, because it just wasn't it wasn't nearly as 100 00:05:33,031 --> 00:05:35,111 Speaker 2: developed as what was going on in Honduras. 101 00:05:35,191 --> 00:05:37,871 Speaker 1: But did you manage to file stories that got published out? Well? 102 00:05:37,871 --> 00:05:40,831 Speaker 3: I think one of the early, you know, really big ones. 103 00:05:40,911 --> 00:05:43,710 Speaker 3: Tony was filming for ABC Television and I was writing 104 00:05:43,751 --> 00:05:45,871 Speaker 3: for the New York Times as a stringer, so it 105 00:05:45,911 --> 00:05:49,630 Speaker 3: never had my byline was writing for them and we 106 00:05:49,911 --> 00:05:56,631 Speaker 3: actually uncovered what was Eden Pastora's secret radio station that 107 00:05:56,711 --> 00:05:58,950 Speaker 3: he always said was broadcasting from the hills of Nicaragua. 108 00:05:58,951 --> 00:06:01,031 Speaker 3: In fact, it was broadcasting from the hills of San Jose. 109 00:06:01,191 --> 00:06:03,511 Speaker 1: Tell our listeners real quick, who is so? 110 00:06:03,671 --> 00:06:06,831 Speaker 3: Eden Pastora was the main contraur anti Sandinista leader on 111 00:06:06,871 --> 00:06:09,991 Speaker 3: the Southern Front, and there were a number of different 112 00:06:10,991 --> 00:06:13,551 Speaker 3: sort of small armies that were under his coalition, which 113 00:06:13,591 --> 00:06:16,871 Speaker 3: was known as ARDI. And he officially denied he was 114 00:06:16,871 --> 00:06:19,591 Speaker 3: getting CIA for a long For the first period of 115 00:06:19,591 --> 00:06:21,111 Speaker 3: time that we were there, he denied that he was 116 00:06:21,111 --> 00:06:23,591 Speaker 3: getting any CIA help. The fiction was that he was 117 00:06:23,671 --> 00:06:24,471 Speaker 3: running his own. 118 00:06:24,311 --> 00:06:27,190 Speaker 1: War and it was so important to him and others 119 00:06:27,231 --> 00:06:31,951 Speaker 1: to conceal his location, not just for like military strategic reasons, 120 00:06:31,951 --> 00:06:34,351 Speaker 1: because but because Coast Eco was officially not supposed to 121 00:06:34,351 --> 00:06:34,791 Speaker 1: be there all. 122 00:06:34,711 --> 00:06:36,390 Speaker 3: In the way, that was the condition under which he 123 00:06:36,471 --> 00:06:37,551 Speaker 3: was allowed to operate there. 124 00:06:37,751 --> 00:06:41,630 Speaker 1: And did that story sort of establish as fact that 125 00:06:41,871 --> 00:06:44,711 Speaker 1: there was in fact a contra operation being run out 126 00:06:44,711 --> 00:06:45,711 Speaker 1: of Custrica. 127 00:06:45,431 --> 00:06:47,751 Speaker 3: Yes, it did, and there were other there were there 128 00:06:47,751 --> 00:06:50,390 Speaker 3: were beginnings to be other reports. As I recall, there 129 00:06:50,471 --> 00:06:53,591 Speaker 3: was an expose in Newsweek that had also talked about 130 00:06:53,591 --> 00:06:55,551 Speaker 3: and there were you know, there were beginning to be reports, 131 00:06:55,551 --> 00:06:58,031 Speaker 3: but this was one of the early sort of real 132 00:06:58,231 --> 00:06:59,991 Speaker 3: you know, we sort of caught them. 133 00:07:00,511 --> 00:07:02,871 Speaker 1: What do you think accounts for the difference between the 134 00:07:02,991 --> 00:07:07,351 Speaker 1: character of the contras in the north and the seemingly gentler, 135 00:07:07,591 --> 00:07:10,871 Speaker 1: less brutal contras are just driving in the south. 136 00:07:11,311 --> 00:07:15,831 Speaker 2: In the north, I mean, these were you know, Somosa's 137 00:07:15,991 --> 00:07:19,751 Speaker 2: National Guard, and they continued to commit atrocities. They would 138 00:07:19,751 --> 00:07:23,671 Speaker 2: go into villages and just shoot everybody and things like that, 139 00:07:23,791 --> 00:07:25,951 Speaker 2: and none of that was happening on the southern front. 140 00:07:26,031 --> 00:07:29,191 Speaker 2: I mean, the people in the south were much different. 141 00:07:29,231 --> 00:07:34,951 Speaker 2: They were peasants from southern Nicaragua who didn't like the 142 00:07:35,311 --> 00:07:39,671 Speaker 2: heavy handed reforms being made by the Sandinistas. There were 143 00:07:39,751 --> 00:07:42,551 Speaker 2: some people from the Atlantic coast who didn't like the 144 00:07:42,631 --> 00:07:48,191 Speaker 2: imposition of a Spanish based culture. They were generally not Catholic. 145 00:07:48,271 --> 00:07:55,671 Speaker 2: They were Moravian or other Protestant groups. So the Sandinistas 146 00:07:55,751 --> 00:08:00,231 Speaker 2: were trying to change their schools and change their culture, 147 00:08:00,271 --> 00:08:06,711 Speaker 2: and they rebelled against that. And militarily they were not 148 00:08:06,911 --> 00:08:09,511 Speaker 2: very competent. I mean, they didn't have a lot of 149 00:08:09,511 --> 00:08:14,671 Speaker 2: military experience or very good military training. The arms they 150 00:08:14,671 --> 00:08:17,591 Speaker 2: were getting from the US were like the dregs of 151 00:08:17,631 --> 00:08:21,591 Speaker 2: the arms. They were, you know, the sort of the 152 00:08:21,711 --> 00:08:25,631 Speaker 2: leftover stuff. And they would complain that even the uniforms 153 00:08:25,671 --> 00:08:28,711 Speaker 2: they were getting, their camouflage uniforms were made for like 154 00:08:29,271 --> 00:08:33,430 Speaker 2: six foot tall Americans, these enormous boots and the pants 155 00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:36,151 Speaker 2: that dragged down on the ground, shirts that were reached 156 00:08:36,151 --> 00:08:41,111 Speaker 2: their knees and stuff. So they were well equipped and 157 00:08:41,351 --> 00:08:43,111 Speaker 2: well suited to really do any real. 158 00:08:43,351 --> 00:08:45,870 Speaker 1: Fighting despite the aid coming from the US. 159 00:08:46,151 --> 00:08:49,670 Speaker 3: Yes, there were periods of time when money was flowing 160 00:08:49,710 --> 00:08:51,670 Speaker 3: and arms were supposed to be coming in, and still 161 00:08:51,710 --> 00:08:54,631 Speaker 3: the Southern Front was always the step child. And one 162 00:08:54,670 --> 00:08:57,511 Speaker 3: of the questions was was money being ripped off? And 163 00:08:57,670 --> 00:08:59,631 Speaker 3: I think, you know, some of the work that we 164 00:08:59,631 --> 00:09:02,311 Speaker 3: did in Miami and really looking deeper into the drug 165 00:09:02,391 --> 00:09:06,271 Speaker 3: trafficking and so on, it was apparent that some of 166 00:09:06,271 --> 00:09:08,310 Speaker 3: the Countra leaders were ripping off money and there was 167 00:09:08,351 --> 00:09:11,550 Speaker 3: just no priority given to either training or equipping the 168 00:09:12,391 --> 00:09:14,190 Speaker 3: sort of the cannon fodder on the Southern Front. 169 00:09:14,991 --> 00:09:19,271 Speaker 1: Okay, so you just heard Martha reference drug trafficking. I 170 00:09:19,310 --> 00:09:21,670 Speaker 1: get asked a lot about the drug angle of the 171 00:09:21,670 --> 00:09:25,111 Speaker 1: Iran Contra story. Is it true that the Contras were 172 00:09:25,151 --> 00:09:28,671 Speaker 1: smuggling cocaine into the US, is it true that American 173 00:09:28,670 --> 00:09:31,990 Speaker 1: officials put a blind eye to it? According to Tony 174 00:09:32,030 --> 00:09:35,271 Speaker 1: and Martha, the answers to these questions are gauzy and 175 00:09:35,391 --> 00:09:37,111 Speaker 1: unsatisfying at best. 176 00:09:37,910 --> 00:09:40,750 Speaker 3: One of the things that I think we know, I mean, 177 00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:44,951 Speaker 3: we've learned looking at drug trafficking and in a number 178 00:09:44,991 --> 00:09:48,391 Speaker 3: of parts of the world, is that it tends to 179 00:09:48,430 --> 00:09:52,670 Speaker 3: thrive where they are covert operations. So I think that 180 00:09:52,751 --> 00:09:57,511 Speaker 3: the operations out of Costa Rica on, you know, based 181 00:09:57,511 --> 00:10:00,590 Speaker 3: out of the north, on these airstrips that were sort 182 00:10:00,590 --> 00:10:04,790 Speaker 3: of a classic cover for moving drugs. It was at 183 00:10:04,830 --> 00:10:08,151 Speaker 3: the time when first marijuana and then cocaine was coming 184 00:10:08,190 --> 00:10:11,151 Speaker 3: in from Columbia and they needed sort of stop over 185 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:13,231 Speaker 3: places in Central America. A lot of the countries in 186 00:10:13,231 --> 00:10:18,791 Speaker 3: Central America, Guatemalan so on, became bases for drugs stopping. 187 00:10:18,991 --> 00:10:23,391 Speaker 3: But the Contra operations provided, you know, particular ability to 188 00:10:23,871 --> 00:10:24,550 Speaker 3: move the drugs. 189 00:10:24,871 --> 00:10:27,151 Speaker 2: The CIA had this problem that they had to move 190 00:10:28,111 --> 00:10:31,871 Speaker 2: arms in through these very small airstrips carved out of 191 00:10:31,871 --> 00:10:34,670 Speaker 2: the jungle, and they needed pilots willing to do that, 192 00:10:34,910 --> 00:10:36,710 Speaker 2: and there was not too many pilots are willing to 193 00:10:36,790 --> 00:10:41,470 Speaker 2: land on these very short landing and takeoff runway airstrips, 194 00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:44,830 Speaker 2: and the only the most experienced people at doing that 195 00:10:44,910 --> 00:10:49,070 Speaker 2: were drug pilots. So they ended up recruiting a bunch 196 00:10:49,111 --> 00:10:53,831 Speaker 2: of these pilots. And these people had a background in drunks, 197 00:10:53,830 --> 00:10:56,511 Speaker 2: so they were figuring, well, they're flying these planes down 198 00:10:57,151 --> 00:10:59,830 Speaker 2: full of arms, unloading the arms and flying back empty, 199 00:10:59,950 --> 00:11:04,910 Speaker 2: that's a wist. So they would fly back with drugs 200 00:11:04,950 --> 00:11:09,151 Speaker 2: that started to come up from Colombia or other places 201 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:14,670 Speaker 2: and America, and they would five them back into the States, 202 00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:17,871 Speaker 2: often with actually the cover of the CIA. 203 00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:22,190 Speaker 1: So, just as a table setting question, what would have 204 00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:25,951 Speaker 1: been in it for the US or the CIA to 205 00:11:25,991 --> 00:11:30,350 Speaker 1: put a blind eye towards this or to encourage it. 206 00:11:30,351 --> 00:11:33,311 Speaker 3: It's sort of lay what level are you talking about? 207 00:11:33,471 --> 00:11:40,271 Speaker 3: Because there were the CIA operatives or contract employees in 208 00:11:40,351 --> 00:11:43,991 Speaker 3: the field, the pilots, and these various other sort of 209 00:11:44,351 --> 00:11:47,710 Speaker 3: lower level officials who were clearly profiting from it. The 210 00:11:48,351 --> 00:11:51,830 Speaker 3: CIA operation the Southern Front needed this kind of pilots, 211 00:11:51,830 --> 00:11:53,910 Speaker 3: and so they kind of turned at least they turned 212 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:57,030 Speaker 3: a blind eye. The central question that or one of 213 00:11:57,030 --> 00:12:00,151 Speaker 3: the central questions we have never been able to fully 214 00:12:00,710 --> 00:12:05,070 Speaker 3: resolve as how far up the line of command did 215 00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:09,151 Speaker 3: profiting from the drug operations go. And I don't think 216 00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:09,711 Speaker 3: we know that. 217 00:12:10,631 --> 00:12:12,871 Speaker 1: If you're curious to learn more on the drug smuggling 218 00:12:12,910 --> 00:12:16,070 Speaker 1: aspect of Iran Contra, it's worth looking up the findings 219 00:12:16,070 --> 00:12:18,950 Speaker 1: of a Senate subcommittee chaired by John Kerry that looked 220 00:12:18,950 --> 00:12:22,871 Speaker 1: into the issue in nineteen eighty seven. In their official report, 221 00:12:23,231 --> 00:12:26,550 Speaker 1: Kerry and his investigators concluded that there was no evidence 222 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:30,871 Speaker 1: that Contra leaders were personally involved in drug smuggling. However, 223 00:12:31,070 --> 00:12:33,471 Speaker 1: there was substantial evidence of drug smuggling on the part 224 00:12:33,471 --> 00:12:37,631 Speaker 1: of individual Contras, as well as Contra suppliers, Contra pilots, 225 00:12:37,871 --> 00:12:41,431 Speaker 1: mercenaries who worked with the Contras, and Contra supporters throughout 226 00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:45,391 Speaker 1: the region. The report also found that US officials working 227 00:12:45,391 --> 00:12:48,351 Speaker 1: in Central America failed to address the drug issue out 228 00:12:48,391 --> 00:12:51,351 Speaker 1: of fear that doing so would jeopardize the war effort 229 00:12:51,391 --> 00:13:10,870 Speaker 1: against the Sandinista government. We'll be right back. The drug 230 00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:13,950 Speaker 1: trade was not the only murky story that Martha Honey 231 00:13:13,950 --> 00:13:17,471 Speaker 1: and Tony Averrigan came across during their time in Central America. 232 00:13:18,430 --> 00:13:20,830 Speaker 1: At one point, Tony and Martha got worried about a 233 00:13:20,871 --> 00:13:23,910 Speaker 1: dramatic new development on the southern front of the Contra war. 234 00:13:24,871 --> 00:13:28,991 Speaker 1: It involved Eden Pastora, the former Sandinista who is now 235 00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:33,271 Speaker 1: the primary Contra leader in Costa Rica. Pastora was going 236 00:13:33,271 --> 00:13:35,230 Speaker 1: to hold a press conference at one of his bases 237 00:13:35,271 --> 00:13:36,511 Speaker 1: in the Nicaraguan jungle. 238 00:13:37,511 --> 00:13:39,391 Speaker 3: We had developed some very good sources. 239 00:13:39,511 --> 00:13:40,310 Speaker 1: Thiseteen eighty four. 240 00:13:40,511 --> 00:13:43,231 Speaker 3: This is nineteen eighty four. This is May nineteen eighty four. 241 00:13:43,710 --> 00:13:46,430 Speaker 3: But leading up to that we had developed it, particularly 242 00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:50,910 Speaker 3: one intelligence officer within the Quantum movement who became a 243 00:13:50,991 --> 00:13:52,790 Speaker 3: very important source. And we later learned that he was 244 00:13:52,830 --> 00:13:55,871 Speaker 3: Costa Rican and he was actually had infiltrated to try 245 00:13:55,871 --> 00:13:58,511 Speaker 3: to find out for a proral Costa Ricans what was 246 00:13:58,511 --> 00:14:02,231 Speaker 3: going on inside. And so one of the things that 247 00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:07,271 Speaker 3: Andras said was that the CIA was really putting pressure 248 00:14:07,351 --> 00:14:11,310 Speaker 3: on Pastora to align the of in Front with the 249 00:14:11,351 --> 00:14:14,471 Speaker 3: Northern Front, with the known as the FDN, Somosa's old 250 00:14:14,511 --> 00:14:16,950 Speaker 3: National Guard in the Northern Front, and Pastor was under 251 00:14:16,950 --> 00:14:20,671 Speaker 3: a lot of pressure. Pastor at that point had never 252 00:14:21,231 --> 00:14:24,350 Speaker 3: said that he was getting CIA money, but. 253 00:14:25,151 --> 00:14:27,591 Speaker 1: In the align, what does it mean that they wanted 254 00:14:27,631 --> 00:14:28,151 Speaker 1: him to do so? 255 00:14:28,231 --> 00:14:30,710 Speaker 3: They wanted they wanted for instance, Pastor to take all 256 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:33,350 Speaker 3: of his military orders out of Honduras. 257 00:14:33,511 --> 00:14:36,751 Speaker 2: Rather, they were switching under the command of the FDN. 258 00:14:37,431 --> 00:14:40,231 Speaker 3: So that he would no longer really be the general 259 00:14:40,271 --> 00:14:42,271 Speaker 3: in the South, but he would be taking his orders 260 00:14:42,311 --> 00:14:45,671 Speaker 3: from the North and basically from the CIA, that they 261 00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:49,311 Speaker 3: would be directing it. And so one of the things 262 00:14:49,351 --> 00:14:52,710 Speaker 3: that I was told a few days before the press 263 00:14:52,751 --> 00:14:57,110 Speaker 3: conference was that the CIA had given Pastor an ultimatum, 264 00:14:57,191 --> 00:15:00,271 Speaker 3: a thirty day ultimatum that was up May thirtieth, nineteen 265 00:15:00,311 --> 00:15:04,551 Speaker 3: eighty four, that he had to by then publicly say 266 00:15:04,551 --> 00:15:07,830 Speaker 3: that he was aligning with the FDN in the North. 267 00:15:08,751 --> 00:15:13,191 Speaker 3: And Pastor Or basically called the press conference to say 268 00:15:13,231 --> 00:15:15,470 Speaker 3: publicly for the first time that he was getting CIA 269 00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:18,391 Speaker 3: support and that he was announcing that he was breaking 270 00:15:18,431 --> 00:15:21,551 Speaker 3: his ties with the CIA and going to basically run 271 00:15:21,551 --> 00:15:24,071 Speaker 3: his own operation out of the South. So that was 272 00:15:24,071 --> 00:15:26,911 Speaker 3: the purpose of the press conference, because wow. 273 00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:28,871 Speaker 1: So this was no this was no routine press conference. 274 00:15:28,991 --> 00:15:33,031 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. And because I knew this, I 275 00:15:33,071 --> 00:15:34,791 Speaker 3: decided not to go to the press conference, and I 276 00:15:34,791 --> 00:15:36,990 Speaker 3: wrote a story for the New York Times. There was 277 00:15:36,991 --> 00:15:38,871 Speaker 3: a front page story the next day saying that the 278 00:15:38,871 --> 00:15:41,551 Speaker 3: CIA put this thirty day ultimatum on Pastor. I didn't 279 00:15:41,551 --> 00:15:42,870 Speaker 3: know that the bombing was going to happen. 280 00:15:42,991 --> 00:15:46,151 Speaker 1: You said the CIA, yes, you were able to say 281 00:15:46,151 --> 00:15:46,511 Speaker 1: that it was. 282 00:15:46,951 --> 00:15:50,631 Speaker 3: Yes, yes. And so I stayed home and I. 283 00:15:50,631 --> 00:15:55,111 Speaker 2: Was stringing them for ABC Television, and you know, I 284 00:15:55,191 --> 00:15:57,671 Speaker 2: had to go there because we needed actually tape of 285 00:15:57,911 --> 00:16:02,391 Speaker 2: Pastora saying it. So we had a Toyota jeep and 286 00:16:02,511 --> 00:16:05,511 Speaker 2: we used that and a bunch of others to go 287 00:16:05,631 --> 00:16:08,511 Speaker 2: up travel up to the north and then get into 288 00:16:08,951 --> 00:16:15,311 Speaker 2: these small boats to go down to the San Juan 289 00:16:15,431 --> 00:16:19,191 Speaker 2: River that separates Nicaraguay and Costa Rica and up to 290 00:16:19,311 --> 00:16:23,511 Speaker 2: the place called Lopenka. But there was one person there 291 00:16:23,671 --> 00:16:26,230 Speaker 2: who was not part of our regular group. He wasn't 292 00:16:26,231 --> 00:16:28,911 Speaker 2: one of the Costa Rican journalists or the foreign journalists 293 00:16:28,911 --> 00:16:32,351 Speaker 2: that were regularly doing these these trips up to the 294 00:16:32,351 --> 00:16:35,671 Speaker 2: country camps. I went and talked to him and he 295 00:16:35,710 --> 00:16:41,911 Speaker 2: said that he was a Danish photographer and was going 296 00:16:41,911 --> 00:16:44,551 Speaker 2: to cover the press conference. And I mean, I wasn't 297 00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:49,431 Speaker 2: so unusual. I didn't think that was anything alarming about that. Anyway, 298 00:16:49,431 --> 00:16:53,431 Speaker 2: we got up to the country camp known as Lipenka 299 00:16:54,671 --> 00:17:00,230 Speaker 2: just after sundown and it was just really a one 300 00:17:00,311 --> 00:17:06,791 Speaker 2: room shack piled high. Inside, there were piles of rice 301 00:17:06,871 --> 00:17:13,711 Speaker 2: bags that people were using the seats, and there were 302 00:17:14,031 --> 00:17:23,511 Speaker 2: various contras with AK forty seven and sixteen's over their shoulders, 303 00:17:23,551 --> 00:17:29,670 Speaker 2: milling around and like a high table in the center, 304 00:17:29,711 --> 00:17:36,191 Speaker 2: and Pastora got behind that. So just as he began speaking, 305 00:17:36,511 --> 00:17:40,590 Speaker 2: he motioned to a young woman who was part of 306 00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:44,391 Speaker 2: his force, woman named Rosita, to bring him a cup 307 00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:48,430 Speaker 2: of coffee. We found out later that the bomber, the 308 00:17:48,511 --> 00:17:51,950 Speaker 2: person who came to the press conference with four pounds 309 00:17:51,951 --> 00:17:56,390 Speaker 2: of Sea four plastic explosive in a Haliburton camera case, 310 00:17:57,271 --> 00:18:01,231 Speaker 2: was this very the Danish journalist who I had said 311 00:18:01,231 --> 00:18:03,670 Speaker 2: hello to early in the morning, and he put that 312 00:18:03,791 --> 00:18:09,871 Speaker 2: down underneath the counter on which Pastora was leaning and talking, 313 00:18:10,830 --> 00:18:16,151 Speaker 2: and then went outside and set it off by remote control. 314 00:18:16,991 --> 00:18:20,071 Speaker 2: But this young woman handed him a cup of coffee, 315 00:18:20,110 --> 00:18:22,110 Speaker 2: and as she did so, her foot hit the camera 316 00:18:22,191 --> 00:18:25,551 Speaker 2: case knocked it on its side. So then when the 317 00:18:25,590 --> 00:18:29,031 Speaker 2: glass went off, it went up and down and made 318 00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:31,951 Speaker 2: a huge hole in the floor and blew the roof 319 00:18:31,991 --> 00:18:37,510 Speaker 2: off the building. Finally I realized that everything was black, 320 00:18:37,551 --> 00:18:40,271 Speaker 2: and there was this moaning and crying, and there was 321 00:18:40,311 --> 00:18:44,430 Speaker 2: all this dust in the air and everything. Well, it 322 00:18:44,590 --> 00:18:50,590 Speaker 2: killed three journalists in Rosita, and there were nearly twenty 323 00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:56,271 Speaker 2: people injured, and some very people lost arms and legs 324 00:18:56,311 --> 00:18:59,071 Speaker 2: and eyes. And I had all the skin was burned 325 00:18:59,110 --> 00:19:02,470 Speaker 2: off my face, and I had a big cut on 326 00:19:02,511 --> 00:19:05,190 Speaker 2: the side of my face, and then my left hand 327 00:19:05,471 --> 00:19:10,031 Speaker 2: was all the skin was burned off and the bone 328 00:19:10,191 --> 00:19:13,671 Speaker 2: were sticking out, and I had a big hole the 329 00:19:13,711 --> 00:19:17,350 Speaker 2: size of a tennis boar a little bigger than that 330 00:19:17,471 --> 00:19:21,311 Speaker 2: in my side. I didn't think I was going to die, 331 00:19:21,311 --> 00:19:22,990 Speaker 2: but I thought if I did die, it was going 332 00:19:23,031 --> 00:19:24,670 Speaker 2: to be because of this hole on my side. So 333 00:19:24,751 --> 00:19:29,031 Speaker 2: I tore off my shirt and stuffed it into the hole. 334 00:19:29,671 --> 00:19:33,751 Speaker 2: And then there was only one boat there, and the 335 00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:37,390 Speaker 2: people who were released injured ran down to the boat 336 00:19:37,431 --> 00:19:44,110 Speaker 2: and left the most injured behind. And I ended up 337 00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:47,870 Speaker 2: being on the ground for nearly twelve hours before any 338 00:19:48,191 --> 00:19:50,271 Speaker 2: the boat had to make a four hour round trip 339 00:19:50,311 --> 00:19:53,110 Speaker 2: to go down to the nearest rural hospital from there. 340 00:19:54,031 --> 00:19:57,711 Speaker 2: And well, Martha was there, and she can tell you 341 00:19:58,071 --> 00:20:00,471 Speaker 2: about about what happened to that, and. 342 00:20:02,431 --> 00:20:05,271 Speaker 3: So just backtracking a little, so I hadn't gone to 343 00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:08,551 Speaker 3: the press conference because I already knew what Pestora was 344 00:20:08,590 --> 00:20:10,830 Speaker 3: going to say. So. I wrote a story for the 345 00:20:10,830 --> 00:20:13,711 Speaker 3: New York Times, filed it and was sitting at home 346 00:20:13,751 --> 00:20:16,270 Speaker 3: with our daughter and the phone rang and it was 347 00:20:16,830 --> 00:20:19,031 Speaker 3: another American journalist and I said, oh, I thought you 348 00:20:19,031 --> 00:20:20,911 Speaker 3: were at the press conference. He said no, I overslept, 349 00:20:20,951 --> 00:20:22,830 Speaker 3: I didn't go. But do you have the radio on? 350 00:20:22,951 --> 00:20:25,271 Speaker 3: I said no. He said, well, I'm really sorry to 351 00:20:25,271 --> 00:20:28,191 Speaker 3: tell you this, but there's been a bomb that's gone 352 00:20:28,191 --> 00:20:30,630 Speaker 3: off at the press conference, and they're reporting that at 353 00:20:30,711 --> 00:20:33,791 Speaker 3: least one American has been killed, and they haven't said 354 00:20:33,951 --> 00:20:37,910 Speaker 3: who it is, and so I was kind of like, 355 00:20:38,110 --> 00:20:41,631 Speaker 3: you know, my world fell apart, and I began calling 356 00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:44,590 Speaker 3: everybody I could think of in the Contras, in the 357 00:20:44,711 --> 00:20:49,191 Speaker 3: US embassy and the coast streaking government, and everybody said, yeah, 358 00:20:49,231 --> 00:20:52,071 Speaker 3: we're hearing these reports. You know, some people have died, 359 00:20:52,110 --> 00:20:55,870 Speaker 3: including an American, and we but we don't have any names. 360 00:20:55,991 --> 00:21:01,151 Speaker 3: So of course I thought the worst, and eventually good 361 00:21:01,191 --> 00:21:03,231 Speaker 3: Canadian friends of ours came over and the woman stayed 362 00:21:03,231 --> 00:21:05,350 Speaker 3: with our kids and I went to the hospital in 363 00:21:05,390 --> 00:21:08,071 Speaker 3: San Carlos where they were bringing in the people, and 364 00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:11,710 Speaker 3: while I was standing there, I noticed that there was 365 00:21:11,911 --> 00:21:15,031 Speaker 3: someone sitting outside in a hospital garb but sitting in 366 00:21:15,031 --> 00:21:18,031 Speaker 3: a wheelchair with a beard, just sitting there very quietly 367 00:21:18,191 --> 00:21:20,590 Speaker 3: outside the hospital. And at one point one of the 368 00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:25,150 Speaker 3: nurses came over to me and said, are you the 369 00:21:25,191 --> 00:21:27,630 Speaker 3: woman who has come to collect And she pointed to 370 00:21:27,671 --> 00:21:30,751 Speaker 3: this guy and I said, who is that and she said, oh, 371 00:21:30,751 --> 00:21:33,870 Speaker 3: he's a Danish journalist and he wasn't injured and he 372 00:21:33,911 --> 00:21:35,711 Speaker 3: says that a woman's coming to collect him and he's 373 00:21:35,711 --> 00:21:37,791 Speaker 3: waiting for her. And said, no, no, it's not me, 374 00:21:37,911 --> 00:21:40,951 Speaker 3: and didn't think anything more of it. I remember when 375 00:21:40,991 --> 00:21:44,391 Speaker 3: Tony finally arrived in the last ambulance. I was following 376 00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:46,791 Speaker 3: Tony into the swinging doors and I remember glancing and 377 00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:49,311 Speaker 3: seeing that the wheelchair was empty. This guy had been 378 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:52,350 Speaker 3: sitting in that we learned two days later was the bomber. 379 00:21:52,951 --> 00:21:55,671 Speaker 3: And he managed to get himself out on his own 380 00:21:55,991 --> 00:21:57,631 Speaker 3: and then he disappeared. 381 00:22:01,711 --> 00:22:04,511 Speaker 1: More with Martha Honey and Tony Averergan. After a quick 382 00:22:04,511 --> 00:22:17,430 Speaker 1: break after the bombing at Eden Pastora's press conference, Tony 383 00:22:17,511 --> 00:22:20,311 Speaker 1: Averergan had to be flown to an American hospital where 384 00:22:20,311 --> 00:22:23,671 Speaker 1: he was treated by a world class hand specialist. After 385 00:22:23,751 --> 00:22:27,311 Speaker 1: two months in the hospital, Tony recovered and kept his hand, 386 00:22:28,150 --> 00:22:31,791 Speaker 1: but the episode would consume Martha and Tony's lives for 387 00:22:31,951 --> 00:22:32,670 Speaker 1: years to come. 388 00:22:33,431 --> 00:22:35,991 Speaker 3: I was contacted by the Committee to Protect Journalists in 389 00:22:36,031 --> 00:22:38,791 Speaker 3: New York and they had put together, you know, very 390 00:22:38,791 --> 00:22:41,551 Speaker 3: modest fun and they said, could you undertake an investigation 391 00:22:41,590 --> 00:22:43,511 Speaker 3: and find out who was responsible? And I said, sure, 392 00:22:43,671 --> 00:22:46,110 Speaker 3: you know, I thought it would be pretty easy, and 393 00:22:46,231 --> 00:22:48,951 Speaker 3: so he thought it put it be easy. I thought, 394 00:22:48,951 --> 00:22:50,431 Speaker 3: a couple you know, a couple of weeks, a couple 395 00:22:50,431 --> 00:22:52,231 Speaker 3: of months, will you nail this down? 396 00:22:52,271 --> 00:22:54,791 Speaker 1: And was it easy as you thought? 397 00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:58,311 Speaker 3: No, No, it was a nightmare. It was and it 398 00:22:58,471 --> 00:23:01,991 Speaker 3: still is. You know, we're not we don't. There's still 399 00:23:02,071 --> 00:23:06,990 Speaker 3: unanswered questions. But we initially started out, you know, the investigation. 400 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:10,631 Speaker 3: So I went back to meet with this contrac guy 401 00:23:11,630 --> 00:23:14,390 Speaker 3: in Costa Rica in San Jose and set up a 402 00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:18,110 Speaker 3: meeting with Andras, the intelligence officer within Pastora's operation who 403 00:23:18,191 --> 00:23:21,431 Speaker 3: was really reporting for the pro new Trility folks. And 404 00:23:21,471 --> 00:23:23,991 Speaker 3: I said, okay, who did it? And he said, well, 405 00:23:24,271 --> 00:23:27,271 Speaker 3: it was either the extreme right or the extreme left. 406 00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:31,590 Speaker 3: I said, that's helpful. He said yeah, he said, but 407 00:23:31,711 --> 00:23:34,751 Speaker 3: he said, but that started us on that path. And 408 00:23:34,791 --> 00:23:38,670 Speaker 3: because of the thirty day ultimatum, we assumed that the 409 00:23:38,711 --> 00:23:40,071 Speaker 3: CIA was responsible. 410 00:23:40,711 --> 00:23:42,390 Speaker 1: The assumption would be that the CIA was trying to 411 00:23:42,431 --> 00:23:45,431 Speaker 1: stop the press conference from happening or right. 412 00:23:45,991 --> 00:23:48,271 Speaker 3: I think that our view was that we just wanted 413 00:23:48,271 --> 00:23:51,951 Speaker 3: more information on We wanted a good investigation of the bombing, 414 00:23:52,071 --> 00:23:54,630 Speaker 3: and clearly the US wasn't helping. In fact, the US 415 00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:58,471 Speaker 3: had taken the one piece of the bomb that remained, 416 00:23:58,511 --> 00:24:01,350 Speaker 3: which was the detonator, and someone from the Southern Command 417 00:24:01,431 --> 00:24:03,630 Speaker 3: in Panama on American came to the Costa Ricans and said, oh, 418 00:24:03,671 --> 00:24:05,391 Speaker 3: we'll examine that and figure out who made the bomb, 419 00:24:05,471 --> 00:24:07,751 Speaker 3: and they took it away and it disappeared. No report 420 00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:11,231 Speaker 3: was ever given. So systematic the US was trying to 421 00:24:11,471 --> 00:24:14,191 Speaker 3: block a serious investigation. The Costa Ricans at that point, 422 00:24:14,191 --> 00:24:17,511 Speaker 3: we're not doing a serious investigation. They did subsequently, and 423 00:24:17,911 --> 00:24:21,511 Speaker 3: so we a year later we published our report on 424 00:24:21,511 --> 00:24:25,711 Speaker 3: the Lapenka bombing, which we had just a rich array 425 00:24:25,711 --> 00:24:28,590 Speaker 3: of sources who were reporting, you know, sort of confirming 426 00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:32,230 Speaker 3: what our hypothesis was. And so we published this report 427 00:24:32,350 --> 00:24:34,231 Speaker 3: a year after the bombing for the Committee to Protect 428 00:24:34,271 --> 00:24:36,791 Speaker 3: Journalists and also published a Spanish edition in Costa Rica. 429 00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:41,391 Speaker 1: Was your central allegation that the bomber, like the identity 430 00:24:41,431 --> 00:24:43,631 Speaker 1: the bomber, it is what it is, But was your 431 00:24:43,630 --> 00:24:48,071 Speaker 1: central allegation that he had ties to the US government 432 00:24:48,150 --> 00:24:50,791 Speaker 1: and that he had been ordered to carry out the 433 00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:51,630 Speaker 1: bombing by the Y. 434 00:24:51,991 --> 00:24:54,991 Speaker 3: Yes, we were given the name from some of our 435 00:24:55,350 --> 00:25:00,631 Speaker 3: sources in Miami and sources in Costa Rica who were 436 00:25:00,671 --> 00:25:05,910 Speaker 3: mainly contra sources, and we knew that he wasn't the 437 00:25:06,271 --> 00:25:08,551 Speaker 3: Danish journalist. I mean that was he was traveling on 438 00:25:08,590 --> 00:25:12,631 Speaker 3: a stolen passport and so on, and that was all 439 00:25:12,671 --> 00:25:16,551 Speaker 3: we had. So you know, for a long time, our 440 00:25:17,231 --> 00:25:20,951 Speaker 3: leads all seemed to point to the CIA. We still 441 00:25:20,991 --> 00:25:22,830 Speaker 3: did not know the real name of the bomber, and 442 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:26,071 Speaker 3: we had this other known the gear, but we assumed 443 00:25:26,071 --> 00:25:27,751 Speaker 3: that wasn't a real name, and we didn't know his 444 00:25:27,870 --> 00:25:31,350 Speaker 3: real identity, and we didn't know how where the bomb 445 00:25:31,431 --> 00:25:34,031 Speaker 3: had been put together. We didn't know those details. Who's 446 00:25:34,311 --> 00:25:37,990 Speaker 3: the paymaster. So we began talking about, okay, could we 447 00:25:37,991 --> 00:25:41,791 Speaker 3: bring a lawsuit that would help to get more information 448 00:25:42,191 --> 00:25:45,831 Speaker 3: through depositions, would be able to do a serious investigation. 449 00:25:47,191 --> 00:25:49,350 Speaker 3: So we began calling. I mean, we had some lawyer 450 00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:51,190 Speaker 3: friends in the States and they all said, this is 451 00:25:51,231 --> 00:25:54,870 Speaker 3: a really difficult case. You're Americans. The journalists who went 452 00:25:54,911 --> 00:25:56,791 Speaker 3: to the press conference left from Costa Rica. It happened 453 00:25:56,830 --> 00:26:00,191 Speaker 3: in Nicaragua. You know, just jurisdiction is a huge issue. 454 00:26:00,830 --> 00:26:04,071 Speaker 3: Plus you're up against it looks like the US government 455 00:26:04,110 --> 00:26:06,671 Speaker 3: and national security issues and so on, and so it's 456 00:26:06,671 --> 00:26:09,671 Speaker 3: going to be very, very hard, and we really couldn't 457 00:26:09,791 --> 00:26:11,791 Speaker 3: find anyone who would take the case. 458 00:26:12,791 --> 00:26:16,071 Speaker 1: In June of nineteen eighty six, the public interest lawyer 459 00:26:16,191 --> 00:26:20,271 Speaker 1: Danny Shehan filed a sprawling lawsuit on Martha and Tony's behalf. 460 00:26:21,311 --> 00:26:25,031 Speaker 1: The suit alleged a conspiracy involving an American farmer living 461 00:26:25,071 --> 00:26:28,071 Speaker 1: in Costa Rica named John Hull, as well as a 462 00:26:28,071 --> 00:26:31,551 Speaker 1: group of Cuban Americans who worked with him. Later, it 463 00:26:31,630 --> 00:26:34,231 Speaker 1: was confirmed that Hull's ranch had been used as part 464 00:26:34,271 --> 00:26:37,431 Speaker 1: of the American government's secret effort to aid the Contras. 465 00:26:38,350 --> 00:26:42,311 Speaker 1: Shean's lawsuit also targeted multiple individuals who would later become 466 00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:46,071 Speaker 1: implicated in the Iran Contra scandal. Among them was Major 467 00:26:46,150 --> 00:26:49,311 Speaker 1: General Richard Seacoord, whose story you heard in episode four. 468 00:26:50,590 --> 00:26:53,511 Speaker 1: Martha and Tony say the sheer scale of the lawsuit 469 00:26:53,630 --> 00:26:54,630 Speaker 1: caught them off guard. 470 00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:58,791 Speaker 3: We had just because we were so overwhelmed with things 471 00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:00,551 Speaker 3: going on in Costa Rica. We hadn't paid a lot 472 00:27:00,590 --> 00:27:02,830 Speaker 3: of attention to what he was putting together. We had 473 00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:04,590 Speaker 3: no idea it was going to be twenty eight, twenty 474 00:27:04,671 --> 00:27:06,911 Speaker 3: nine people and so on. I mean, we kept saying 475 00:27:06,911 --> 00:27:09,870 Speaker 3: to him, our interest is what's the identity of the 476 00:27:09,870 --> 00:27:12,391 Speaker 3: b and who was the paymaster? That's what we want 477 00:27:12,431 --> 00:27:15,830 Speaker 3: to track. And suddenly it was this lawsuit with you know, 478 00:27:15,870 --> 00:27:17,551 Speaker 3: all of these different people, a lot of names. We 479 00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:22,391 Speaker 3: started to charging a broad conspiracy, with La Panka being 480 00:27:22,511 --> 00:27:24,710 Speaker 3: you know, sort of one piece of it, but a 481 00:27:24,791 --> 00:27:29,751 Speaker 3: much broader conspiracy going back both many years and involving 482 00:27:29,951 --> 00:27:31,151 Speaker 3: just this fast network. 483 00:27:31,551 --> 00:27:36,791 Speaker 2: As he never showed us anything before it was filed 484 00:27:36,791 --> 00:27:41,031 Speaker 2: with the court. We never he kept us away from 485 00:27:41,031 --> 00:27:46,350 Speaker 2: every court appearance he went himself, and he really kept 486 00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:51,110 Speaker 2: us marginalized. But he kept saying, I have more information 487 00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:54,110 Speaker 2: about the people you were interested in, and you know, 488 00:27:54,150 --> 00:27:57,350 Speaker 2: but he never he never produced that information. And we 489 00:27:57,511 --> 00:28:00,751 Speaker 2: started complaining about the nature of the was wuit. He 490 00:28:00,830 --> 00:28:02,871 Speaker 2: kept saying, well, nobody cares about the bombing. 491 00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:05,031 Speaker 1: He had to make it about the secret government that 492 00:28:05,071 --> 00:28:10,031 Speaker 1: was running, right, and so they he named Richard Squel, 493 00:28:10,031 --> 00:28:13,590 Speaker 1: Lord Robert Owen right, who was one of North's people. 494 00:28:13,751 --> 00:28:16,591 Speaker 3: He did not name North, and they said why and 495 00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:19,390 Speaker 3: he said, because he is the one person working for 496 00:28:19,431 --> 00:28:22,351 Speaker 3: the government, and if we name someone working for the government, 497 00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:24,990 Speaker 3: they'll throw it out of national security grounds, which is 498 00:28:25,071 --> 00:28:28,350 Speaker 3: probably a correct legal decision, even though for us, you know, 499 00:28:28,511 --> 00:28:32,350 Speaker 3: Hull and North were the centerpieces of what we were 500 00:28:32,390 --> 00:28:32,911 Speaker 3: looking at. 501 00:28:33,471 --> 00:28:35,991 Speaker 1: Then you knew North's name at this point or yeah, yeah, 502 00:28:36,031 --> 00:28:37,751 Speaker 1: and you understood him to be the person who is 503 00:28:37,791 --> 00:28:39,031 Speaker 1: directing the Southern Front? 504 00:28:39,191 --> 00:28:39,391 Speaker 2: Yes? 505 00:28:39,471 --> 00:28:39,871 Speaker 3: Yeah? 506 00:28:39,911 --> 00:28:41,991 Speaker 1: Did anything Did anything good come out of the lawsuit? 507 00:28:41,991 --> 00:28:44,391 Speaker 1: In your mind? Did anything? Did any information shake loose 508 00:28:44,431 --> 00:28:45,791 Speaker 1: as a result of Yes, at. 509 00:28:45,711 --> 00:28:48,991 Speaker 3: The end of the day, you know, it did help 510 00:28:49,031 --> 00:28:53,471 Speaker 3: to dismantle the Southern Front, the whole investigation that not 511 00:28:53,511 --> 00:28:55,750 Speaker 3: only we began, but then other people began looking at 512 00:28:55,791 --> 00:28:59,951 Speaker 3: Hull and the Cuban Americans and so on, and that 513 00:29:00,351 --> 00:29:04,271 Speaker 3: definitely had a huge impact. And then the secret airstrip, 514 00:29:04,351 --> 00:29:06,791 Speaker 3: the little Santa Lana airstrip in the Hasenthuss plane and 515 00:29:06,791 --> 00:29:07,071 Speaker 3: so on. 516 00:29:07,191 --> 00:29:09,751 Speaker 1: So all of that point came down a couple of 517 00:29:09,751 --> 00:29:11,031 Speaker 1: months after the lawsuit was filed. 518 00:29:11,351 --> 00:29:14,671 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so all of that began this whole process 519 00:29:14,671 --> 00:29:18,711 Speaker 3: that eventually unraveled the Southern Front, or helped feed into 520 00:29:18,711 --> 00:29:23,351 Speaker 3: this whole growing awareness of the Iran Contra scheme. 521 00:29:23,551 --> 00:29:26,591 Speaker 1: Yes, you lost the lawsuit. 522 00:29:27,071 --> 00:29:29,911 Speaker 3: We lost the lawsuit, Yes, but there was a lot 523 00:29:29,951 --> 00:29:32,831 Speaker 3: of good information that was turned up which eventually led 524 00:29:32,871 --> 00:29:34,990 Speaker 3: to what we believe is the truth that the bomber 525 00:29:35,111 --> 00:29:37,831 Speaker 3: was actually working for the Sandinistas. 526 00:29:38,871 --> 00:29:43,710 Speaker 1: The Sandinistas, despite all their suspicions about CIA involvement in 527 00:29:43,871 --> 00:29:48,311 Speaker 1: Eden Pastora's attempted assassination, Martha and Tony concluded that it 528 00:29:48,351 --> 00:29:52,431 Speaker 1: was most likely the Sandinistas who were responsible for me. 529 00:29:52,791 --> 00:29:56,351 Speaker 1: The confusion around this incident underscores just how tangled and 530 00:29:56,431 --> 00:30:00,151 Speaker 1: bewildering the Iran Contra story is as a whole. How 531 00:30:00,151 --> 00:30:03,471 Speaker 1: many moving parts it involved, how many different fault lines 532 00:30:03,511 --> 00:30:07,871 Speaker 1: and alliances there were. It was really convoluted. And I 533 00:30:07,911 --> 00:30:11,271 Speaker 1: think that's also why the allegations of CIA complicity and 534 00:30:11,311 --> 00:30:14,631 Speaker 1: Contra drug smuggling have never been fully fleshed out or 535 00:30:14,631 --> 00:30:18,750 Speaker 1: definitively proven. The deeper you dive, the more reason you 536 00:30:18,831 --> 00:30:21,911 Speaker 1: have to doubt every story you hear, and the harder 537 00:30:21,951 --> 00:30:25,671 Speaker 1: it gets to pin anything down. Why do you think 538 00:30:26,151 --> 00:30:30,071 Speaker 1: these allegations are so hard to well prove is one thing. 539 00:30:30,111 --> 00:30:31,991 Speaker 1: It's it's obvious why they're hard to prove, But why 540 00:30:31,991 --> 00:30:34,871 Speaker 1: are they hard to believe? Why is it hard for 541 00:30:34,911 --> 00:30:41,351 Speaker 1: people to sort of accommodate the notion that the CIA 542 00:30:41,471 --> 00:30:44,711 Speaker 1: might have a network of airstrips that are being used 543 00:30:44,711 --> 00:30:46,351 Speaker 1: to run guns and drugs. 544 00:30:46,871 --> 00:30:51,071 Speaker 2: You know, there's the shooting down of Hasumfusu's playing. That's 545 00:30:51,111 --> 00:30:55,871 Speaker 2: a straightforward, simple story. Everybody can understand that, and a 546 00:30:55,871 --> 00:30:59,391 Speaker 2: few paragraphs that the plane was carrying arms and you 547 00:30:59,431 --> 00:31:02,950 Speaker 2: have evidence and it was shut down. The story of 548 00:31:03,031 --> 00:31:06,551 Speaker 2: the supply of arms that are contra or the connections 549 00:31:06,631 --> 00:31:10,391 Speaker 2: between the CIA and drug trafficking, it's much more, and 550 00:31:10,511 --> 00:31:16,311 Speaker 2: it doesn't it just doesn't fit into a fast news story. 551 00:31:16,991 --> 00:31:20,151 Speaker 2: It's just not an easy thing to explain. It takes 552 00:31:20,191 --> 00:31:22,191 Speaker 2: a while to explain to see. 553 00:31:22,231 --> 00:31:25,351 Speaker 3: I think it's something more than that. I think that 554 00:31:25,591 --> 00:31:28,311 Speaker 3: the press did, over time and over a lot of 555 00:31:28,351 --> 00:31:32,191 Speaker 3: objections from US officials and Costa Rican officials, did come 556 00:31:32,271 --> 00:31:37,231 Speaker 3: to understand and accept that the Hull Branch was being 557 00:31:37,311 --> 00:31:39,631 Speaker 3: used as the southern front for the Quantras, and that 558 00:31:39,711 --> 00:31:42,511 Speaker 3: there were these Cuban Americans involved and so on, they 559 00:31:42,511 --> 00:31:46,071 Speaker 3: were able to understand that and for a long period 560 00:31:46,111 --> 00:31:48,831 Speaker 3: of time, and still today in Central America there was 561 00:31:49,071 --> 00:31:50,551 Speaker 3: you know, there's been a strong feeling that it was 562 00:31:50,551 --> 00:31:52,791 Speaker 3: the CIA that did it. In fact, the Costa Ricans 563 00:31:53,271 --> 00:31:56,470 Speaker 3: under the next president launched an investigation which we had 564 00:31:56,511 --> 00:32:00,231 Speaker 3: nothing to do with. But I think that the whole 565 00:32:00,351 --> 00:32:04,151 Speaker 3: drug connection was very hard. We never had a drug 566 00:32:04,191 --> 00:32:07,351 Speaker 3: plane that fell from the sky, you know, with Countras 567 00:32:07,351 --> 00:32:09,711 Speaker 3: on it or CIA operatives on it. This is such 568 00:32:09,751 --> 00:32:13,351 Speaker 3: a hard story to report, and oftentimes you don't have 569 00:32:13,431 --> 00:32:17,431 Speaker 3: heard evidence, and so it's piecing together from stories, you know, 570 00:32:17,471 --> 00:32:19,511 Speaker 3: and it's the kind of thing that can be discredited 571 00:32:19,551 --> 00:32:22,471 Speaker 3: because there's so much money behind it and so much 572 00:32:22,511 --> 00:32:24,991 Speaker 3: interest in keeping a lid on it. And so I 573 00:32:25,751 --> 00:32:28,871 Speaker 3: think that that piece of it has not been fully 574 00:32:29,151 --> 00:32:33,871 Speaker 3: either acknowledged or accepted because we didn't have the heart, 575 00:32:33,951 --> 00:32:36,071 Speaker 3: you know, we just didn't never have the real hard evidence. 576 00:32:40,311 --> 00:32:43,231 Speaker 1: That's it for our interview with Martha Honey and Tony Abragan. 577 00:32:43,871 --> 00:32:46,791 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this special bonus episode of Fiasco 578 00:32:46,951 --> 00:32:59,230 Speaker 1: Iran Contra Coming up, episode five, in which members of 579 00:32:59,231 --> 00:33:02,391 Speaker 1: the Reagan administration try to stem the fallout of Iran 580 00:33:02,511 --> 00:33:04,031 Speaker 1: Contra going public. 581 00:33:04,551 --> 00:33:09,831 Speaker 3: After Watergate, we all understood that the cover up could 582 00:33:09,871 --> 00:33:13,391 Speaker 3: be worse than the crime itself. 583 00:33:16,991 --> 00:33:20,231 Speaker 1: Fiasco is a production of Prolog Projects and it's distributed 584 00:33:20,271 --> 00:33:23,710 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Ula Culpa 585 00:33:23,791 --> 00:33:27,111 Speaker 1: with editorial support from Andrew Parsons and me Leon Mayfock. 586 00:33:27,791 --> 00:33:30,190 Speaker 1: Our music is by Nick Silvester. Our theme song is 587 00:33:30,231 --> 00:33:32,511 Speaker 1: by Space for Relations, and our artwork is by Teddy 588 00:33:32,511 --> 00:33:36,071 Speaker 1: Blanks at chips n y Audio, mixed by Rob Buyers, 589 00:33:36,191 --> 00:33:40,471 Speaker 1: Michael Rayfield and Johnny Vince Evans. Special thanks to Luminary 590 00:33:40,911 --> 00:33:51,111 Speaker 1: and thank you for listening. Binge the entire season of 591 00:33:51,191 --> 00:33:55,190 Speaker 1: Fiasco Iran Contra ad free by subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 592 00:33:55,831 --> 00:33:58,631 Speaker 1: Sign up on the Fiasco show page on Apple Podcasts 593 00:33:58,831 --> 00:34:03,111 Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot fm slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers 594 00:34:03,151 --> 00:34:07,190 Speaker 1: can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and 595 00:34:07,231 --> 00:34:09,551 Speaker 1: bonus content for all Pushkin podcasts