1 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloy. 3 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 3: Tracy Arizona Water. 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm really fascinated by this topic, and I 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: also have a really hard time wrapping my head around it. 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: We sort of hear different things. So just to lay 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: the groundwork here or the groundwater. We have interviewed a 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: land broker in Arizona, and we have also interviewed an 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: alfalfa farmer. Yes, and water has come up every time, 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: and we sort of hear different things from those two stakeholders. 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: So I remember the farmer was sort of blaming the 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: property developers for water shortages, and then the property developers 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: are like, actually, agriculture uses the majority of water in 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: the state, and at the same time, you have concerns 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: over water availability, and we saw some news on that 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: front recently. 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, So at the beginning of the month, I believe 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: the governor of Arizona announced this plan to sort of 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: constrain the amount of new development that will be allowed 20 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: around the Phoenix area, which is of course one of 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: the fastest growing areas. And as you mentioned, like the 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: developers will say, oh, we have plenty of room to 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: add more homes because the farmers are taking up eighty 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: percent of the water that we have in the desert. 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: And the farmers say, well, there wasn't really a problem 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: with water until everyone started moving to our state. 27 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 2: I'm imagining that Spider Man meme of everyone pointing fingers 28 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: at each other. But I think the big difference and 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: what's happening now is that we are starting to see 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: water shortages or constraints affect development decisions. 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: Right, So then the big question is, like, Okay, so 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: Arizona and some of these other Southwestern states that in 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: part get their water from the Colorado River all have 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: to conserve water to somewhat to some extent, there's been 35 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: this meggage round in the Southwest for I think like 36 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: twenty five years now. From the underground aquafers, they're depleting 37 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: at some pace. The water from the rivers is lower 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: than it used to be. So then and we hadn't 39 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,119 Speaker 1: even you know, we're talking about housing versus agriculture. There's 40 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: also a lot of industry, industry and the semiconductors. Yeah, 41 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: so we sort of have to get a sense I 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: think of the big picture of like frankly, who's going 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: to lose out? Who is going to who has water 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: today that won't have access. 45 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: To it in the future, Right, And how do you 46 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: make those decisions? How do you decide what to prioritize. 47 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: Right, Because with all utilities, it's never like a pure market. 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: There's not just like I don't at least I don't think, 49 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's like when you like try to wrap 50 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: your head around like. 51 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 3: How the Texas grid works. 52 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's not like there's like some price of 53 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: electricity and who pays the most. It's like there's auction mechanisms, 54 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: there's subsidies, et cetera. 55 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: All kinds of Texas gread is a bit of a 56 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 2: special case. But point taken, I think I. 57 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: Think Arizona Water might also be in that case of 58 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: many special cases. So we really do have the perfect 59 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: guest who is steeped in water and water policy and 60 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: made a whole career of it. We're going to be 61 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: speaking to Katherine Sorenson. She's the director of Research at 62 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: the Kyle Center for Water at the Morrison Institute for 63 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: Public Policy at Arizona State. Previously, she was the head 64 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: of Phoenix Water Services. 65 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: So someone who. 66 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: Really knows water and going to break it down. So, 67 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: Catherine Sorenson, thank you so much for coming on odd 68 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: Lots really appreciate you joining us. 69 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 4: Thank you. I'm really excited for our conversation. 70 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: Why didn't you start just in the very sort of 71 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: just go back a little bit a few weeks ago 72 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: and the Governor of Arizona did announce these constraints to 73 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: some extent on new construction capacity around Phoenix. 74 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 3: What what was announced and why? 75 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question, and there is a complicated 76 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 4: answer to that. 77 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: And I told you it's not going to be an 78 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: easy one. 79 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 4: But it's not an easy one. So what that related 80 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 4: to is actual it was actually a sustainable groundwater management 81 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 4: in the Phoenix metropolitan area. So in Arizona we have 82 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 4: some of the most progressive groundwater management laws that you 83 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 4: will find not only in this country, but literally in 84 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 4: the world. Back in nineteen eighty we passed groundwater management 85 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: that effectively ties water availability to the ability to grow. 86 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 4: And so what that means is that if you're going 87 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 4: to subdivide land, which is typically how growth occurs, particularly 88 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 4: for you know what we call subdivisions, right like residential 89 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 4: subdivision in the Phoenix metropolitan area. If you are going 90 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: to subdivide land and grow, you have to prove that 91 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 4: you have one hundred years of water available for that development. 92 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 4: It is a really high bar to me, necessarily so 93 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 4: because you can imagine that people will only invest in 94 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 4: our economy. Enterprises will only come to the Phoenix area 95 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 4: if they understand that we have secure water supplies, because 96 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 4: we're out here in the middle of that destr right. 97 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 4: So what the governor announced was actually that all the 98 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 4: groundwater in the Phoenix metropolitan Area is essentially spoken for. 99 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 4: It is allocated and expected to be used by those 100 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: who have a right to it over the next one 101 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 4: hundred years. So our announcement really was that you can 102 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 4: continue to grow, but if you are going to continue 103 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 4: to grow, it needs to either be in a place 104 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: that already has demonstrated this one hundred year assured water supply, 105 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 4: or if you're going to grow out on the fringes 106 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 4: of the Valley of the Sun, outside of the boundaries 107 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 4: of places that have this one hundred year assured water 108 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 4: supply designation, you can't grow on groundwater. You can grow 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 4: on other water supplies, but not groundwater. So it is 110 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 4: essentially a way of protecting the groundwater so that it 111 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 4: is available for those who already have a claim to 112 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 4: it and for those who come after. 113 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 2: So let me ask, let me back up even further 114 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: all the way I guess to like the Paleolithic era. 115 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: But when we talk about water availability in Arizona and 116 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,239 Speaker 2: in Phoenix specifically, setting aside constraints, currently, how much water 117 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: is there and where is it coming from? Because of 118 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: course you make the you distinguish between groundwater versus other sources. 119 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: So what exactly is available in that area? 120 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 4: You know, I love this question because it's super important. 121 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 4: Central Arizona in particular is blessed with very large and 122 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 4: very productive groundwater aquifers. That means, in layman terms, there's 123 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 4: a lot of ground. Unfortunately, it's fossil groundwater, meaning that 124 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 4: it is not annually renewed by Mother Nature at any 125 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 4: significant rate. It's like an oil field, right, okay, and 126 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 4: probably more valuable to us, I will say so. But 127 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 4: Arizona also, of course has its own rivers. Those rivers 128 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 4: are depending on snow melt from our mountains, and Phoenix 129 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: in particular is located where three of the state's main 130 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 4: rivers come together. So Although people, you know, criticize Phoenix 131 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 4: for being a big city out in the middle of 132 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 4: the desert, what they don't really understand is that Phoenix 133 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 4: was actually very carefully chosen by ancient Native Americans who 134 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 4: first settled there and who have lived there since crime immemorial. 135 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 4: Because Phoenix is where three big rivers come together, so 136 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 4: there's a large amount of service water. There's also this 137 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 4: native groundwater, fossil groundwater, and then we import Colorado River 138 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 4: water from western Arizona into central Arizona as well, so 139 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 4: there is a lot of water. There's enough water for 140 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: what we most value. I think the question is that 141 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 4: there is probably not enough water for everything. So we 142 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 4: really have to dial in on what are these things, 143 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 4: what are these enterprises, What are these uses of water 144 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 4: that we most want. 145 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: I guess we'll just keep jumping back and forth between 146 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: the current time and history the ancient era. But you know, 147 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: you mentioned that per the Governor's New Order, that if 148 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: you want to build or grow in certain areas, you 149 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: can still do it. 150 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 3: You just have to. 151 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: Find another source of water that's not the groundwater. That 152 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: the ground that the one hundred years of groundwater availability 153 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: is essentially spoken for already can you talk through I 154 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: guess some of the maybe it's the economics or the 155 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: considerations that would go you know, into thinking like, Okay, 156 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: some entity wants to grow what is the second best 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: source of water for them that if they no longer 158 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: have access to the sort of underground fossil water. 159 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 4: So it is all about economics. There are alternatives. The 160 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 4: question is how expensive are those alternatives and would you 161 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 4: not just be better off economically by developing more in 162 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 4: the center of the value of the sun and the 163 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 4: Phoenix metropolitan area where there is already one hundred years 164 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 4: hird water supply designation. Right, So this in some way 165 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 4: balances the economics between continued sprawl which was cheaper on groundwater, 166 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 4: versus infield development where water supplies and warsure. But yeah, 167 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 4: there are alternatives. There are farmers that are willing to 168 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 4: basically sell their higher priority water rights, and an entity 169 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 4: could theoretically purchase those water rights off of the main 170 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 4: stem in western Arizona, the main ten mouth of the 171 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 4: Colorado River, and to import them through the Central Arizona 172 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 4: Project Canal into Central Arizona. That is hugely controversial, not 173 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 4: to mention extremely expensive, but for example, the town of 174 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 4: Queen Creek, which does not have a designation of a 175 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 4: one hundred year shared water supply. The town of Queen 176 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 4: Creek is in the process of doing just that because 177 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,599 Speaker 4: they want to continue to grow, so for them, the 178 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 4: economics work. 179 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 5: For individual developers, I think that's a much steeper proposition, right. 180 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 5: It's one thing for an entire town to decide to 181 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 5: import those types of supplies. 182 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 4: If you're just an independent developer, that might. 183 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 5: Be substantially more efficult kinds it, but that is a possibility. 184 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 4: There are also Indian tribes in central Arizona that at 185 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 4: least historically have been willing to lease some of their 186 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 4: water for these purposes. It's really expensive, but it's possible. 187 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 4: There are also groundwater basins outside of the Phoenix metropolitan 188 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 4: area that are specifically designated for the purpose of being 189 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 4: pumped and transporting that groundwater into the Phoenix metropolitan area, 190 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 4: sort of like in Owens Valley in California. If you 191 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 4: know that story. You pump someone else's groundwater basin dry 192 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 4: and import it into an urban center, not saying that's sustainable, 193 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 4: but it is legally feasible in a z on them 194 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 4: and then of course, there's reclaimed water, there's the potential 195 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,479 Speaker 4: to use desalinated breckage groundwater or ocean water. There are alternatives. 196 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 4: These are all just really really expensive. So if you're 197 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 4: a developer, you got to be thinking, Okay, would I 198 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 4: rather try to pursue this continued sprawl type subdivision development 199 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 4: or might I be better off purchasing more expensive land 200 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 4: that comes with an assured water. 201 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: Sorry to jump back and forth again, but can I 202 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: ask another backup question. 203 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 4: Wherever you want? It's all good. 204 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: I think we're on like two separate timelines. 205 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: No, but I find it helpful for about like the 206 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: different types of water, and you're totally right. 207 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: Well, okay, so just on this note, But the current 208 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: water constraints, what are they being caused by? Is it 209 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 2: simply economic development and population growth? Is it climate change? 210 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: I imagine it's a combination of a bunch of different factors. 211 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: But can you maybe explain the constraints to us and 212 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: then how those constraints inform the current thinking around water availability. 213 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 4: So the constraints relating to groundwater that I described I 214 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 4: have to do both with farming and with continued urban development. 215 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 4: You can imagine there are a lot of demands on 216 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: our aquifers. Right there's continued farming in the Valley of 217 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 4: the Sun. Farming in the desert Southwest is a very 218 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 4: water intensive enterprise. Farmers continue to draw from the aquifer 219 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 4: and they have the ability to do so in perpetuity. 220 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 4: They were essentially grandfathered in to the groundwater pumping restraints 221 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 4: under the nineteen eighty Groundwater Management Act, so they have 222 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 4: a perpetual right to come and they continue to do so. 223 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 4: And then, of course the cities have grown in population 224 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 4: as well, particularly since World War Two, and you know, 225 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 4: they draw on the aquifer for potable water needs as well. 226 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 4: And then there's various industries that also draw from the aquifer. 227 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 4: And so I think it's a combination of all of 228 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 4: those demands that are creating the constraints on groundwater. Essentially, 229 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 4: what the state is coming out and saying is that, look, 230 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 4: all that groundwater is spoken for, you know, and not 231 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 4: just spoken for today. The state looks out one hundred years. 232 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: We're very proactive about our water management out here in 233 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 4: the desert because we have to be. But what the 234 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 4: state is saying is that that groundwater over this one 235 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 4: hundred year chunk of time is spoken for. So those 236 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 4: constraints are kind of caused by a combination of all 237 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 4: those demands, but also the intentional regulatory decision to protect 238 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 4: and guard those resources for the future. Right the state 239 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 4: is essentially signaling no, we're not just going to let 240 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 4: you deplete this awkward for Chiller's and nothing left. Regarding 241 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 4: surface water, that's a really different constraint. So I mentioned 242 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 4: that we have that Phoenix is located where three major 243 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 4: rivers come together. The value of the sun is lucky 244 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 4: to enjoy the flows of the Salt and Verting rivers. 245 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 4: That river system is actually managed by the Salt River Project. 246 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 4: It's called it is one of the Beerau Reclamation's oldest 247 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 4: projects and dates back I believe to Oh my goodness, 248 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 4: nineteen oh, nineteen ten. I don't know. I probably have 249 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: that wrong. It's very old. It predates statehood for us. 250 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 4: The flows of that system actually are relatively resilient and sustainable, 251 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 4: even in the face of climate change. There's a couple 252 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 4: of reasons for that. Scientists has studied the hydrology of 253 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 4: those watersheds, and certainly climate change will affect those watersheds. 254 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 4: We can expect some diminishment of snowpack and precipitation in 255 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 4: our mountains. But the way I understand it, not being 256 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 4: a hydrologist, is that they're saying that, look, you know, 257 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: Arizona is already baked, right, It's already it's already hot 258 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 4: and dry here, and yeah, it might give us feel 259 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 4: hotter and dryer, but they don't expect that the flows 260 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 4: of the Saltenbodi River system will be affected as much as, 261 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 4: for example, the flows of the Colorado itself might be affected. 262 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 4: And then if you add to that the fact that 263 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 4: the entire value of the sun the whole Phoenix metropolitan 264 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 4: area used to be agricultural, and that again dates back 265 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 4: all the way to time immemorial with the Native Americans 266 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 4: who first farmed this valley, and in fact, our modern 267 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 4: day canal system follows in many ways the same ancient 268 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 4: canal systems that Native Americans first dug. So we were 269 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 4: always in an agricultural valley. Particularly during World War II. 270 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 4: A lot of that agriculture increased because of the need 271 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 4: to grow cotton for war material and at the time 272 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 4: that bull weav was decimating cotton in the southeast, and 273 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 4: so Arizona was a natural place to grow it. And 274 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 4: our cotton yields are very high because it turns out 275 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 4: all cotton needs is water and sun, and we got 276 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 4: a lot of sun. So we've been in an agricultural valley. Now, 277 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 4: what's interesting about that is that it takes on the 278 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 4: order of three to six acre feet per acre to 279 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 4: grow cotton or alf alpha in our hot desert sun, 280 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 4: whereas it only takes about an acre and I'm sorry, 281 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 4: an acrefoot per acre to grow a subdivision. Urban water 282 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 4: uses are much less intensive per acre than farming dist 283 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 4: And so interestingly, as the Valley of the Sun converted 284 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 4: from what was largely an agricultural valley into an urban one, 285 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: there was a natural water savings built in. So whereas 286 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 4: we used to use about one and a half million 287 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 4: acre feet of water off the Salt and Birdy River system, 288 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 4: today that system delivers about half that amount. So there's 289 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 4: just this very natural water savings that was built into 290 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 4: the way we grew. And then I'm sorry being really 291 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 4: really interesting. Okay, good stop me at any time. But 292 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 4: then if you take a look at the Colorado River system, 293 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 4: that's where we have just some real problems. The Colorado 294 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 4: River system is overallocated, probably at least by one point 295 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: two million acre per year, maybe more. And then if 296 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 4: you add on top of that the fact that we've 297 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 4: been experiencing, you know, as you said, twenty years of 298 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 4: what has been one of the worst routes on the 299 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 4: paleo record, and the fact that the climate is changing 300 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 4: and scientists are telling us that the flows of the 301 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 4: Colorado River might diminish by as much as thirty percent. 302 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 4: You know, that's a really big problem, right, and I 303 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: think that's why the Commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation 304 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 4: came out and said, hey, look, guys, you're gonna have 305 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 4: to cut millions of acre feet in water consumption to 306 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,959 Speaker 4: stabilize this river system. 307 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 1: So, I mean, that was a great answer, and you 308 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: sort of hit on things that both of the other 309 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: guests that we've talked to about this topic brought up 310 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: and see it from their angle. And so, you know, 311 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: we talked to Chase Summerson, a real estate broker, and 312 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: he made the exact point that you made that actually, 313 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: as Arizona's water consumption shifts from agriculture to residential use, 314 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: it actually results in the net savings and actually improves 315 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: the sustainability. 316 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: On the other hand. You know, we talked to an. 317 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: LFLFA farmer and he's like, you know, our family's been 318 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: doing this on this land for eight generations or something 319 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: like that. And so, you know, as you noted, you know, 320 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: you mentioned that farmers are sort of grandfathered in. So 321 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: can you sort of quantify or talk about the sort 322 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: of implicit subsidy to agriculture that comes from having been 323 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: grandfathered in? And like, what is the gap between how much, say, 324 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: farmers are willing to pay for an acre foot of 325 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: water versus you know, a housing developer either inside the 326 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: Valley of the Sun or nearby. 327 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 4: You know, the subsidy doesn't really come in the form 328 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 4: of water. Okay, let me explain that in a couple 329 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 4: of ways. Yes, under the nineteen eighty Groundwater Management Act, 330 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 4: farmers were basically grandfathered in and they have a perpetual 331 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 4: right to pump groundwater. I guess you can view that 332 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 4: as a subsidy, though the cities and private water companies 333 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 4: that also lay claim to groundwater don't really pay much 334 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 4: for that groundwater either, Okay, Right, And I don't know 335 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 4: that I would say that farmers are subsidized so much. 336 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 4: I think that the difference in the cost that a 337 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 4: developer pays for water versus what a farmer pays for 338 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 4: water really has more to do with the fact that 339 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 4: development is not allowed to rely on mining this fossil groundwater, 340 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 4: and instead they have to invest in and renewable surface 341 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 4: water supplies and particularly in the infrastructure necessary to deliver 342 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 4: it to customers tabs. So I think that in turn 343 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 4: that really the cost difference has more to do with 344 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 4: the acquisition of renewable water supplies and the need to 345 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 4: develop infrastructure, if that makes sense. And on the Colorado 346 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 4: River it's different. So the Groundwater Management Act applies to 347 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 4: central Arizona, it does not apply to western Arizona. And 348 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 4: in western Arizona on the main stem of the Coloratda River, 349 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 4: the farmers and Indian communities have the highest priority water 350 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 4: rates because of course Western water lies based on first 351 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 4: and time first and right, turns out Native Americans we're 352 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 4: here first. Turns out, you know, farmers kind of came 353 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 4: along the text, and so they just they have the 354 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: highest priority water rates. Any subsidy that they receive really 355 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 4: relates more to the infrastructure that often but not always, 356 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 4: has been built by the federal government, typically with repayment provisions, 357 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 4: though at times those repayment provisions are lax. I guess 358 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 4: it does. 359 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: It leads into something I wanted to ask you, which 360 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: is you mentioned infrastructure there, and I guess one question 361 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 2: I have. You know, maybe even before we get to 362 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 2: tougher decisions about constraining development or maybe pricing water in 363 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: a different way, but to what degree can these water 364 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: constraints be solved with better water management and newer infrastructure. 365 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 4: Reinvestment in aging infrastructure will certainly help, but it will 366 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 4: not be the answer. It's difficult to deploy that at scale. 367 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 4: So for example, when I was a director of Phoenix 368 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 4: Water Services, I asked the engineers to calculate how much 369 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 4: water the city of Phoenix was losing two leaky pipes. Now, 370 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 4: to put this in context, here in central Arizona, the 371 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 4: cities have are regulated such that their water losses in 372 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 4: their distribution systems cannot exceed ten percent, which is very low. 373 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 4: If you look nationwide, water losses are probably at least 374 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 4: something more like thirty percent. But because water scarce here 375 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 4: were regulated, you know, to a higher standard. But the 376 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 4: amount of water that is lost in Phoenix water distribution 377 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 4: system pipelines is about twenty five thousand acre feet of 378 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 4: water per year. That's a lot of water. But when 379 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 4: you're talking about a problem on the Colorado River that 380 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 4: is on the order of two million acre feet, you're 381 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 4: not going to get there. Probably a part of the 382 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 4: solution space, I think an important one. I can get 383 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 4: out my pipeline soap box if you want me to, 384 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 4: but I think that investing in pipelines is probably one 385 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 4: of the best things here for water quality and for 386 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 4: water resiliency, but it's unlikely to be deployed a scale 387 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 4: to fix the problems from the color. 388 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: Can I ask a question about perspective, because you know, 389 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: I don't have any impulse. I mean, I really like 390 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: the Southwest, but it's very unlikely that I'm going to 391 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: be moving to Arizona anytime soon. That being said, I 392 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: regularly do consume food, including beef that may have come 393 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: from colors, that may have eaten elfalfa that was grown, 394 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, in Arizona. 395 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 2: So I have a fancy racehorse. 396 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: No, no, I don't know a horse that consumes it. 397 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: But like eat, I eat food, and the desert, other 398 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: than not having much rain, seems to be a pretty 399 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: great place to grow food due to stable conditions and 400 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: other things that you've already talked about. When thinking about 401 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: Arizona water policy, you know, obviously there's the interest of 402 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: the developers and the people who want to move to 403 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: Phoenix for cheap land, et cetera. But how should we 404 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: weigh sort of US food security, the interest of food exports, 405 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: then the interests of fairly affordable food, and how much 406 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: does that inform sort of policy choices that go into 407 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: the state's water use. 408 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 4: So, you know, the US is a very large country, 409 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 4: and certainly we have enough land to grow what we 410 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 4: need to grow. It comes down to economics and inefficiencies. Right. 411 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: Culture in the desert Southwest tends to be very efficient 412 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 4: because we have so much sun, and it is for 413 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: that reason. It is also very water intensive. Alfalfa growers 414 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 4: in the desert Southwest can get something like ten to 415 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 4: twelve cuttings per year. If you're trying to grow alfalfa 416 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 4: in Montana with a short growing season, you're probably going 417 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 4: to get I don't know, two, yeah, four. 418 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: So it's not crazy. So it's not I mean, it's not. 419 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: Crazy that we grow like that is a very big 420 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: advantage setting aside the water issued there's a reason that 421 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: Arizona became a big hotbed grown. 422 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 4: A lot of alfalfa here. Now that other parts of 423 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 4: the country grow a lot of alfalfa as well, would 424 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 4: you have to use more land to get a comparable 425 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 4: total amount? Maybe? Is that the worst thing ever? Probably not. 426 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 4: I think those types of changes could potentially happen over time, 427 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 4: particularly in the face of continued water stress on the 428 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 4: Colorado River. But more important is the question of vegetables. 429 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 4: Because I'm sure you've heard western Arizona, the Yuma area, 430 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 4: and the Central Valley of California grow the majority of 431 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 4: the winter greens that you know, New Yorkers and Minnesotan's 432 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 4: and I don't know, Michiganders, whatever you're called. All these 433 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 4: people love to eat, and that is that could be 434 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 4: replicated elsewhere. But replicating the growth of vegetables in the 435 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 4: wintertime is a very complex undertaking. It's not just about 436 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 4: water and sun. You could probably find that in other places. 437 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 4: It's also about the logistics of refrigeration, the labor supply, 438 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 4: the quality control. All of this is it is very 439 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 4: highly it is highly complex agriculture. It is in industrial agriculture. 440 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 4: It is not you cute little family farms in Massachusetts, right, 441 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 4: So that I think is a more difficult proposition. But 442 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 4: there will be increasing stress on farmers in western Arizona 443 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 4: who have these higher priority water rights, precisely because they 444 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 4: have the higher priority water rights, and as the Colorado 445 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 4: River continues to diminish, the cities in Cintil, Arizona, who 446 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 4: have lower priority water rights to the Colorado River by nature, 447 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 4: are going to be looking to acquire those higher priority 448 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 4: water rights. Farmers don't have to sell, and certainly there 449 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 4: are real consequences for rural communities, for their economies, for 450 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 4: their cultures, for all sorts of things. I don't mean 451 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 4: to make of that, but that pressure will only increase 452 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 4: over time. Pharmers don't have to sell, but it turns 453 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 4: out that at the end of the day, a lot 454 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 4: of them like to, you know, when they want to retire, 455 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 4: when the kids don't want to take their over. You know, 456 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 4: that pressure will only increase. 457 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: So we've already been talking about I guess the realities 458 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: of different water sources and preferences for different water sources. 459 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: I'm wondering what would happen if, you know, for instance, 460 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: we see the property developers have a preference for groundwater 461 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 2: because it tends to be cheaper. But what would happen 462 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: if Arizona came in and put a more concrete pricing 463 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: structure on these rights, like a what would that look like? 464 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: How would it work? I hear that term pricing water 465 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 2: quite a lot nowadays, but I don't quite understand it. 466 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: And then be how would that impact I guess the 467 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: mix of Arizona's economy between say, agriculture industry and real estate. 468 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 4: Well, I think it would have a big impact. Looking 469 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 4: at the kind of the legal issues surrounding that that 470 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 4: the state would have to impose some sort of tax. 471 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 4: That's how you would price water differently, you, Yeah, the 472 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 4: state could come in theoretically and impost some sort of 473 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 4: tax on the consumption of water, the consumption of Colorado 474 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,239 Speaker 4: River water, on the consumption of you know, groundwater. And 475 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 4: certainly I think you know, farmers not always, but you 476 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 4: know often operate you know, on the margin of profitability, 477 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 4: depending on what kind of crop they're growing, And so 478 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 4: certainly I think that could potentially have an impact. I 479 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 4: will tell you, I don't see how that would be 480 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 4: politically viable or so. Sure. I'm an economist. I always 481 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 4: love to go to pricing to fix things, but I 482 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 4: think that would be a very difficult proposition politically. For context, 483 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 4: the consumption of groundwater in central Arizona is taxed in 484 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 4: these areas where groundwater is highly regulated, but the legislature 485 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 4: put a very specific cap on that tax, and really 486 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 4: that was for political reasons, and so that tax is 487 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 4: so low that it really doesn't alter behavior in any 488 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 4: meaningful way. 489 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. 490 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: You brought up the reality that culture and politics and 491 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: everything aside, the pressure on farmers to sell is. 492 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 3: Likely to grow. 493 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: And we even brought this up. We talked to a 494 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: farmer and we said, are you going to sell? And 495 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: he said no, And then he said, well, you know, 496 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: right now the highway is ten miles away, and so 497 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: but maybe one day the highway will it'll be two 498 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: miles away, or you know, one mile away, and so 499 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: at some point there might be a real real. 500 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 3: Estate bid for that area. 501 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 5: You know. 502 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: I want to touch on another dimension that we haven't 503 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: hit on yet, but that is industrial uses of water. 504 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: And we know that a lot of the new semiconductor 505 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: factories that are coming to the US are coming to Arizona, Intel, TMC, 506 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: et cetera. Semiconductor production, I think battery production to fairly 507 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: water intensive process. It has to be really extremely clean water. 508 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that, how that plays into the 509 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: demand mix, and how that's being accounted for. 510 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm glad you asked that, because when you were saying, hey, 511 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 4: you know, should we really be consuming vegetables and dairy 512 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 4: and things that's dependent on agriculture and the desert south west, 513 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 4: the first thing that popped into my mind is, well, 514 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 4: you're already consuming semiconductors that are produced here, and that's 515 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 4: also very water intensive. Yeah. So it turns out that 516 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 4: the desert is a great place not only to grow 517 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,239 Speaker 4: cotton and winter vegetables, but it's a great place used 518 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 4: to grow the high tech industry because we do not 519 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 4: have natural disasters, don't have tornadoes, we don't have blizzards, 520 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 4: really doesn't flood often once in a while, you know, 521 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 4: no tornadoes, it's no earthquakes. It's very stable. Our climate 522 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 4: is very stable, and the high tech industry likes that. Yeah, 523 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 4: that's why there are a lot of server farms out here. 524 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 4: That's why we have Intel, and that's one of the 525 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 4: reasons why we recruited t SMC to build semiconductors as well. 526 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 4: And yes, those industries are very water intensive. That goes 527 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 4: back to the idea that we don't have enough water 528 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 4: for everything. Right, human wants are always unlimited, Our ability 529 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 4: to fulfill them is limited. We don't have enough water 530 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 4: for everything. What do we have enough water for? If 531 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 4: the state wants to continue to pursue the high tech 532 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 4: industry that it is very water intensive, that will entail 533 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 4: shifts of how we consume water in this state and 534 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 4: what it's used for if by nature just has to 535 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 4: because there are tradeos. 536 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: So just on this point, this might be a slightly 537 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: unfair question or a difficult question, but I mean, looking 538 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 2: to the future, is it just inevitable that water constraints 539 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: are going to themselves act as a constraint on economic growth? 540 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 4: I don't think so, because I think that we are 541 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 4: capable of managing our water supplies to meet the purposes 542 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 4: that we find most valuable. The politics of that are 543 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 4: really hard, but we are capable of doing that. The 544 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 4: technologies exist. It is not that difficult from an economic 545 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 4: or technological perspective to move water from where it is 546 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 4: today to where you want it to go to meet 547 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 4: those increased demands. So no, I personally don't. I think 548 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 4: that the economic benefit that comes from these types of 549 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 4: enterprises is such that it will be worthwhile for us 550 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 4: to manage water to meet them and that and we 551 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 4: will do so. 552 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: You know what I find really fascinating by this conversation is, 553 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think when people think about climate change, 554 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: they think about, oh, you know, like we've we've invested 555 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: so much in the desert, et cetera, and we're really 556 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: going to pay the price as the climate continues to change. 557 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: But in many ways, as you've described, are some like 558 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: real advantages. As you said, the Arizona is already baked. 559 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 1: It's already an area. 560 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: That climate stability, extreme heat exactly. 561 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 3: And then it's really funny, Yeah. 562 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 4: People like, what are you going to do about climate change? 563 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 4: You're like, are you kidding me? It's already hot and 564 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 4: dry here, Like you're you're saying it's going to become 565 00:36:59,280 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 4: hotter and drier. 566 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: We know how to do that, you know, right, So 567 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: it's like the potential disruptions to say, where people think 568 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 1: about climate change, winters and you know, the Northeast, maybe 569 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: it'll be more disruptive. But as you point out, you know, 570 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: or as the farmer points out, extremely stable climate I mean, 571 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: is stable weather. There's not droughts because there's no rain 572 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: in the first place. There's not floods because yeah, yeah, 573 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: right right. And then for the industrial uses, you know, 574 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: there's no earthquakes or tornadoes, et cetera, which of course 575 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: is really important for the precision equipment that goes into semiconductors. 576 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: So it really is striking the sort of like combination 577 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: of things like that, other than the lack of rainfall 578 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 1: brings together Arizona. 579 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. And what's important about that context is people need 580 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 4: to remember that people have been moving water for thousands 581 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 4: of years and it's actually something we're good at. Right. 582 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 4: It is not technologically difficult to do it. The solutions 583 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 4: are known, is it expensive, is it difficult, is it 584 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 4: politically fraught with danger? All those things? Right, But it's 585 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 4: very doable. And I think also it's interesting to me. 586 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 4: You know, this country was settled originally, you know, of 587 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 4: course by Native Americans, and then the next kind of 588 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 4: way that came over were Europeans from a temperate climate. 589 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 4: And I think that idea of life in a temperate 590 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 4: climate steaks with us, and people forget that desert cities 591 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 4: are actually among the oldest cities on the planet, that 592 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 4: humans have always lived in deserts and will always live 593 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 4: in deserts. And I think in this country we just 594 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 4: have this weird cultural norm that comes from the fact 595 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 4: that many of the people who came over here and 596 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 4: found it, you know, this government, were from a temperate climate. 597 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 4: That's not how all humans experience the world. 598 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, no, I like this sort of like 599 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: the optimistic idea that part of the human seriously, that 600 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: part of the human experience and part of being human 601 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: is like we're going to find a way to build 602 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: a city. 603 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 3: In the desert. 604 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you mentioned transportation of water, and one 605 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: technology that theoretically if electricity costs fall is desalinization of water. 606 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: And despite the existence of the song titled ocean Front 607 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: Property in Arizona, there is no ocean front property in Arizona, 608 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: though it's a great song. Can you talk a little 609 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: bit of the George Strait song? I think, can you 610 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about desalinization and the sort of 611 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned that we're good at moving water and as 612 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: a solution in the future or even currently from the 613 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: oceans to Arizona for various purposes. 614 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's very it is feasible right now, it's 615 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 4: too crazy expensive to be deployed at scale, is what 616 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 4: I'll say. I think, like other solutions, you know, investing 617 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 4: in leaky pipelines, I think it's a tool. I don't 618 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 4: think it will be deployed at scale, certainly not in 619 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 4: the next, say, twenty years. It's hard for me to 620 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 4: imagine it ever being deployed at a scale that kind 621 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 4: of fixes the Colorado River. But I think it is 622 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 4: important for us to continue to pursue it. But more importantly, 623 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 4: at the end of the day, from an economic perspective, 624 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 4: it will just be less expensive to buy out higher 625 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 4: priority water rights, So I think that's the thing to match. 626 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 4: And it is. While it is less expensive to buy 627 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 4: out higher priority water rights, it is also exponentially politically 628 00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 4: more difficult. So you're going to have this weird conflict 629 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 4: between what is less expensive economically and what is more 630 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 4: expensive politically, And I don't know how that's really going 631 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 4: to play out. I think that'll be interesting to watch. 632 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: Well, this was actually going to be my next and 633 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 2: probably my last question. But you know, we're talking about 634 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 2: deciding on who gets certain rights to water that may 635 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: be more valuable than others. Who gets to make that 636 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 2: decision ultimately. 637 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 4: So for the most part, those decisions are already made 638 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 4: in the West, with some important exceptions I'll talk about. 639 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 4: In the West, for the most part, we already know 640 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 4: exactly who has rights to the Colorado River, to the 641 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 4: Saltenburdi river systems, to groundwater. So much of that is 642 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 4: already determined, and it's more and so changing the use 643 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 4: of that water is more about entering into voluntary transactions 644 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 4: for leases, for the sale of that water, et cetera. However, 645 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 4: there is a really important exception to that, and that 646 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 4: relates back to Native American communities. Many Native American tribes 647 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 4: in Arizona have gone through the process of settling their 648 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 4: water rights claims and know exactly how much water they 649 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 4: are entitled to and where it comes from. Other tribes have, 650 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 4: not notably the Navajo Nation. So there is this outstanding 651 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 4: question about how much water they are entitled to offer 652 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,800 Speaker 4: the Colorado River system. And in an over allocated river system, 653 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 4: there isn't just this water out there floating around that 654 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 4: something isn't already using So that entails claiming that water, 655 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,479 Speaker 4: going through the adjudication process, and then dealing with those 656 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,439 Speaker 4: who are currently making use of that water and stay. Yeah, 657 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 4: it's an interesting situation where you can kind of, you know, 658 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 4: the most part who has rights to water, exactly where 659 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 4: those rights fall in terms of the priority system, with 660 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 4: some notable and very important exceptions. 661 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: And that was going to bring out Catherine Srenson. This 662 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: was a very helpful and clarifying conversation on a complicated topic. 663 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 1: Really appreciate you coming on odlags. 664 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 4: Oh it's been so I think it's must r. 665 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 3: Tracy. 666 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: I found that to be an immensely helpful conversation, you know, 667 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: and I think this sort of where this is going 668 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: is what Trevor Bale is sort of hinted at that essentially, 669 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: at some point the bid for those premium water rights, yeah, 670 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: is just going to naturally move a lot of this 671 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: water to the housing development. 672 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm going to slightly refine priors because going 673 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 2: into this, I was thinking, you know, water wars, big 674 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 2: constraint on economic growth. But to Catherine's point, it's more 675 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 2: about deciding on that mix. It feels like. 676 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,280 Speaker 1: And it does feel to me that to some extent, 677 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: the concern is. 678 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 3: Actually not about Arizona. 679 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: The concern is the people who eat food that is 680 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 1: like grown in Arizona that, as she pointed out, there's like, 681 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: you know, the housing developers can will pay more for 682 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: those water rights, people will live there probably that you know, 683 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 1: the semiconductor, but the w But then it's like, okay, 684 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 1: but someone has to grow those vegetables. 685 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 4: Well. 686 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 2: She also kind of solved a mystery for me, which 687 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 2: is why do we keep building very water intensive technology 688 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 2: in the middle of the desert, And her explanation that actually, 689 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 2: in many respects, this is a very stable climate that 690 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 2: doesn't have to worry about things like hurricanes and tornadoes 691 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 2: and earthquakes. That makes a lot of sense. 692 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,959 Speaker 1: It makes a ton of sense. And I hadn't really 693 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: thought about that dimension before. And then I have to say, like, 694 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 1: you know, I loved her point that like there's always 695 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: been desert, Like we sort of think it's like, oh, well, 696 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: we developed air conditioning and so or you know, modern 697 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: plumbing or something, so like we're going to build a 698 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: city in the desert now. But I like the idea 699 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: that like, even before all this like humans have always 700 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: tried to build cities in the desert. 701 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 2: It's a little bit dystopian. The idea of like climate 702 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 2: change means we're all going home to our desert origan. 703 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 2: It's a little creepy, but I take the point. Like 704 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 2: to her point, Arizona has a long history of dealing 705 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 2: with water scarcity issues and probably on that basis, might 706 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,800 Speaker 2: be in a better position to do so than places 707 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 2: in the Northeast. 708 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: And as a species we find a way that's sort 709 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: of like that. I got very I was like, I 710 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: was expecting. 711 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,919 Speaker 2: This to be much from Jurassic No. 712 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: I was expecting to be like way more pessimistic. And 713 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: I leave like the conversations being like, humans find a 714 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 1: way to do it. 715 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 2: It's certainly a much more nuanced topic than like the 716 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 2: water wars have started. So from that perspective, it was incredibly. 717 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 3: Useful, incredibly useful. 718 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 2: Shall we leave it there, Let's leave it there, all right? 719 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,800 Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 720 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy. 721 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: Alloway and I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me on 722 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at, 723 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: Carmen Arman at Dashel Bennett at dashbot, and for all 724 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg podcasts, check out the handle at podcasts. 725 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: And for our odd Laws content, go to Bloomberg dot 726 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: com slash odd lots, where we have a blog. We 727 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: post the transcripts and the newsletter and come chat in 728 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: our discord. We have a water room, although maybe I 729 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: think it's turned into a climate room, but anyway, people 730 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,280 Speaker 1: talk about water in there a lot, so this should 731 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: be a fun thing to talk about. Go to discord 732 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:42,919 Speaker 1: dot gg slash. 733 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 2: Odlogs, yep, and you can stream Bloomberg TV on Apple Originals, Roku, 734 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 2: Samsung or any of the other streaming platforms, and make 735 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: sure to tune in to Bloomberg TV at ten pm Eastern. 736 00:46:54,640 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining in.