WEBVTT - Kevin Reilly 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.960 I will say for me, anything I've ever been involved 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.200 in I thought was good. I've never said the words 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.040 this is a hit. You know, you look at it 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.960 and you go, this is first like this is a thing. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:14.000 There's something here, and if we keep doing this, it's 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.280 going to be good, and if we get a little lucky, 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.720 it actually will be something significant. And that's just the 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.919 way I've always looked at it. I've never been surprised, like, 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:24.680 oh my god, I had no idea that was good. 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:29.560 But I've certainly been surprised on the downside times. But 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:34.320 I've definitely been surprised when finally not pleasantly, like oh 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.519 my god, they're catching on to what we've known for 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:45.480 a while. Kevin Riley was a president OFBC Entertainment through 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.240 the entire first chapter of the Office, from when the 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:50.720 show was pitched, all the way up through the development 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:53.159 and the first couple of seasons of the show, the 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.720 modest and humble beginnings of a tremendous television show. 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.120 Hello, everybody, so glad that you could join me today 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:10.920 for this very special episode of Off the Beat. I 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.319 am but your humble host Brian Baumgartner. Today we have 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.119 a fascinating guest. I know you're gonna love it. Kevin 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.959 Riley joins the program once again. For those of you 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.760 who don't know, Kevin is a goliath in the television world, 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:31.720 a legend who makes television work from the inside out. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.720 More on that in a bit. It's hard to believe 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:40.039 that he started out as a production assistant, running coffee 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:45.279 orders and making copies for music videos, and he worked 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.560 his way all the way up to being network president 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.520 at multiple networks. By the way, his resume looks like 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:57.040 alphabet soup. That's a business term. He's worked for just 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:04.120 about every television acronym there is, NBC, FX, TNT, TBS, HBO, Fox, 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.240 Turner Media, and many many more. He's advocated for some 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.720 of your favorite shows, including The Office, which we have 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.200 talked to him about before, even when other execs wanted 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.400 to shut those shows down. And he has been a 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:23.240 visionary for television programming and streaming innovations for over thirty years. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.840 That's right, Kevin has his hand in so many shows, 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:33.799 including The Sopranos, The Shield, Nip Tuck, Thirty Rock, The Office, 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.520 and so many more. I'm excited for you to hear 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.600 his story, his career path, and also his take on 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.240 the writers an actors strike that's going on right now. 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.520 Of course I stand with my guild, but I know 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.400 for a fact that unless both sides talk to and 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.160 understand each other, we're not going to get anywhere. So 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.360 it's really special and important to me that Kevin and 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.320 I got to have this conversation at this particular point 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.640 in time. I learned a lot, and I think you 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.120 will too. So how listen. Here he is my old 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:14.280 and dear friend, Kevin Riley. 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:19.080 Bubble and squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak. I know, 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.079 bubble and squeak. I cook get every month, lift over 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:25.680 from the. 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:37.480 Ninetyfore, what's up, Kevin? 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:42.400 There's the man. How's it going outstanding? Good to see you, buddy. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.000 It's great to see you. We still haven't golfed. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:47.800 I know I'm gonna We're gonna will very soon. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.400 Yes, my golf game is in shambles right now. So 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:57.240 if perfect your perfect part, yeah exactly, you're uh yeah. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.280 If if you like to play for money, now's a 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.440 good time to get me. How well, I would say, 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:04.360 how's it going? 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.840 I can't believe it's been three years since. Uh, that's 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:09.600 a little scary. 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.640 Actually, I know. Well, time stops during COVID for sure. 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.720 Oh wow, it was Oh that was like the timing. Yeah, 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.040 that was the timing. You know. I don't have one 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:21.920 of those brains that can do chronology, you know how 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.479 some people can just go, oh and in two thousand 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:26.039 and eight, I did this and do that. I can't 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.240 do that to begin with. But once you threw COVID 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.279 into the mix I have, I'm like, wheels off. People go, hey, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:37.359 when did you start that thing? I go, I can't 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:37.560 do it. 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.120 I know, I was just I was just doing it myself. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.080 Think anytime it's like, you know, oh I went somewhere, 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.760 I was in a city, I did this thing. How 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.440 long ago was that? Oh that was like two years ago. Oh, 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:52.920 in the middle of COVID. No, I guess it was 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:59.960 seven years ago. That's that's that's what happens. But yeah, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.000 it's been three years. We had such a great conversation, 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.600 but you know, we were really focused on the office 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:12.640 during that time. And you have such an interesting it's crazy, like, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.919 of all of my shows, like my favorite shows since 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.720 two thousand, almost all of them you had your you 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:23.960 had you were involved in one way or the other, 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.520 and truly like change, the face of television changed in 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.280 some ways, how people consumed. We'll talk a little bit 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.920 about that during your time in blocks or used to consume. Yeah, well, 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:40.480 but even so, you know how people consume and and 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.440 and what they were consuming on different networks. So I'm 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:45.840 I'm really excited to talk to you and then talk 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.560 a little bit about what's going on in the industry 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.880 right now. But going back for you, you grew up in 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.920 Long Island, right in New York. Were you a New 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.440 York kid? Like, were you taking advantage of this city? 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.320 And yeah, but you know when you you know, when 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.680 you grow up outside New York City, if you're not 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.480 in New York City, there's just a hard line differentiator 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.279 between a city kid and a Long Island kid, you know. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.680 I mean, especially if you're a condescending New York kid, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.560 You're like, you're from where you know? So yeah, it 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:25.400 was twenty minutes without traffic, two hours with traffic, So no, 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.880 I kind of would go into the city. I mean, 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.960 I had I had my best friend growing up as 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.479 his father managed the New York Athletic Club, which was 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.560 like a just an institution, and he was a kid 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.000 who was just like he was the fourth child, and 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.920 at that point the parents were like, you know, wheels off. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.080 They were great family, but he just got so I 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.159 just I would go in with him and we would 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.200 have these crazy adventures where we'd ended up being extras 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.880 in a movie. We'd go under the stanchion at a 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.840 crime scene. I mean, we had some crazy adventures in 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.760 New York City, but no, I was not a city, right. 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.839 What were your favorite television shows as a kid. What 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:04.800 do you remember watching? 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.960 Oh shit, I had a wild swath of things. I 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.080 mean when I was a little kid, lost in space somehow, 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.960 I just like I was in syndication. I mean, I 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:15.600 hate to say it, but I'm so fucking old that 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.080 it was like the still the three channel universe. And 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.640 I would just sit there, changing the channel and staring 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:22.559 at this before dinner. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:22.960 Every night. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:23.920 My mother would be like. 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.880 Turn that thing off, right right? 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.000 But I like watch you know, I watched I Love 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:32.120 Lucy reruns with my mother, you know, I mean I 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.320 got laugh in. I got to stay up and watch 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.360 Goldie Hawn in a bikini, and I was like, Wow, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.280 this this thing is cool. I didn't even like something 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.000 there's something going on with this show. Like generationally, that 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.200 was a whole different kind of thing. And then when 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:50.239 I got into sort of the Monty Python kind of age, 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.440 I just found those guys were seminal influence to me. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.160 Did you watch Saturday Night Live as a kid? 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.960 Yes, And that was probably one of the coolest things 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.360 when I finally when I I went back to be 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.040 the president of NBC, and I became friends with Lauren 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.760 and I still am and like an actual friend of Lauren's. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.480 We kind of bonded over thirty Rock in particular, which 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.720 was you know, Tina Fey was really one of Lauren's favorites, 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.240 and she was not only the head writer, but you know, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.240 it became a really significant thing. So when I actually 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.320 got to sit in the booth with Louren down in 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.600 studio at eight h and I was like, man, if 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.880 you told me when I was a kid, because I was, look, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.520 I was right at that age where it was just 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.960 a groundbreaking thing. And I would have to remember running 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.960 home to watch Saturday Live at eleven thirty, you know, 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:38.960 at just that prime age of whatever the hell I 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.320 was in my teens, and I was like, this is it? 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:43.600 So sort of on some level. Those were kind of 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.680 where I decided I have no idea what this is. 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.559 I don't know even know how you get into that business. 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.120 I don't have a clue. But that's I really knew 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.559 back then that's what I wanted to do somehow. 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.880 You wanted to be involved in television. 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.520 Just entertainment, Yeah, I mean television, but know it was 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.000 just like I wanted, I want in on whatever that is. 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.120 And I came out to California to visit Disneyland with 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:07.840 my parents when I was in sixth grade, and I 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.079 was like, I guess this is where they make movies 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.200 and things, and there's palm trees here. I just was like, 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.240 note to self, I'm doing this and coming here and 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.120 I it was a long, windy, twisty road and I 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.480 didn't and I was clueless on that road, but I 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:23.079 figured it out. 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.600 It's funny because similar and then for me it really 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.240 happened later. But you know, when I was traveling around 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.960 the country doing theater, I remember visiting for the and 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.080 I had, you know, a friend of a friend who 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:43.760 was friends with Callista Flockhart, and I got invited to 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.960 come out for a Midsummer Night's dream. I guess was 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.600 the movie Calista Flockhart was. And I came out and 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.080 I was staying near Westwood, and there was this thing 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:02.320 called Coffee Bean where everyone sat outside so exotic in 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:07.439 the sun. Yeah, drank freezy drinks and fade donald when 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:08.000 you learned. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.800 Then that in La somehow there's a lot of people 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:12.960 that seem to have no cares in the world, and 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.400 they're sitting around in the middle of the day drinking coffee. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:16.400 They're sing around. 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:17.920 I don't know who these people are, but. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.040 You know, well, I thought it would just happened once 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.120 you got there. Yeah, and yeah, it was like exactly, like, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.160 no to self, I don't need to be freezing myself 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.600 in Minnesota. Yeah for that much longer. Let's move out here. Yeah, 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:33.040 you went to Cornell, I did. 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:34.920 Speaking of freezing your ass off. 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:40.040 Yeah, so when you were at Cornell, were you thinking 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.239 about being involved in entertainment. 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:47.040 Yes, I still had no clue what it was. I mean, look, 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:52.080 I became a communications major thinking that was somehow gonna impact. 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.440 I took classes. I took screenwriting classes at if A College, 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.600 which actually had sort of a legit program, And uh, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.640 I think about it now because it's pre Google, you know. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.280 I mean, I don't even know how anybody figured out anything. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.040 I mean, it does make you be crafty, but you'd 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.840 have to go get a few of the books that 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.360 were written, or you'd maybe some magazines would be stuff. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.679 So I'm gleaning whatever I could. But the one couple 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:19.480 things I did well, which is I just I had 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.360 a lot of pressure. I mean, everyone I grew up 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.920 with ended up in somehow Wall Street, if you will, 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:29.440 whether they were a trader or if they had bigger brains, 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:33.319 they became an investment banker. And everybody kind of did that. 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.160 And a lot of guys that you graduated had job 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.599 offers and their acceptance letters on the wall. I didn't. 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.640 I I tended bar. I was like, I better go 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.920 pay the bills because my father, who did not support 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.160 this career choice to begin with, was definitely not going 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.000 to support it and support me. So I just tended bar. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:54.840 That's what I went to do. Well. I went to 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.080 some programs at NYU and just ran around New York 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.120 City from one my parents house in Long Island, trying 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.600 to figure out who would give me a break. 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.720 You talked about taking a screenwriting class. Did you ever 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.720 see yourself as a writer or as an actor. 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.520 Yes, I didn't really understand. I just knew I loved 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.520 it all, and there were moments of kind of having 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.640 my toe in each kind of pond a little bit, 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.240 you know. Acting I moved away from pretty quickly because 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.480 I just was like, I had actor friends. I loved it, 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.839 but I was like, boy, I don't I don't think 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.360 I can do this, you know, the job of being 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.280 the actor, you know, not the craft, the job part 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.000 of it. I just like, man, I just don't think 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.280 I have that kind of personality. And it scared me. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.120 It probably scared me too much, you know, because my 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:45.520 parents just were not Look there were great people, they 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:49.280 just didn't get that at all. And the writing I 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.400 had more discipline on. But then I kind of went 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.680 the same route. I was like, man, I just spent 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.800 two and a half years years in New York. I 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:57.960 don't think I ever slept. I was on the I 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.880 was carrying coffee on the sets of commercials, music videos. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.160 I did like one hundred and fifty of them. I 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.280 mean literally didn't sleep. There were times I would get 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.079 home at two in the morning and be like, Okay, 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.640 I need to be back on set at five, I've 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.280 got to catch the train. I would set a clock 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.719 and literally put it on my chest and sleep for 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.480 forty five minutes and wake up and throw coffee in 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.599 my face and go back to work. So it was 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.160 all kind of a blur. But I did some writing, 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.480 but I was by the time I got to California, 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.319 where I just packed my car and winged it and 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.760 drove across country with no month, like literally eight hundred 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.160 dollars to my name, which I spent very quickly. I 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:40.959 just think I didn't have the guts, frankly, to say, 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.240 all right, I'm going to be a writer. I was like, 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.840 I'll I need something that's gonna if I get a job, 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.040 will pay me in the short run. And I had 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.520 regret about that for a number of years, where I 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.800 kept beating myself up for being a sellout, you know. 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:55.920 And then I finally was like, well, if there's then 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.000 go right, you know. And then I was like, gave that. 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:58.760 I was like, move on. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.360 I did not know you drove. You just packed up 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:09.240 the car and went to LA I know that fairly quickly, right. 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.319 You ended up at Universal As on the public. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.839 Side, And when I was driving across country. I drove 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.800 the southern route and I stayed with some a bunch 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.560 of college friends along the way and in Atlanta, actually, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.600 I stayed with a guy who was in the hotel 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.400 business and his roommate was in the hotel business, and 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.120 he gave me a name of a guy. He's like, look, 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:30.520 I don't I don't know what this guy does if 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.120 he's at Universal Pictures, and he puts actors in my hotel, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.360 in our hotel when he comes to town. He's a 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.360 nice guy. And then I like him, you should you know, 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.440 here's his name. And I was like, oh, I have contacts, 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:44.800 you know, I know Flockharts, second friends, Nanny, and I'm 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.240 going to you know, yeah, exactly, so my contacts I 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.160 like through that thing in my suitcase. And when I 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.400 got to LA and all the people who said call 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:54.680 me when you get here didn't return my phone calls, 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:00.360 and I was in a cold panic and like seriously 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.960 running out of money, and then out of money, I 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.680 like dug out that number and I called this guy Universal, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.240 who was a nice guy, and I had a meeting. 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.560 He didn't hire me, but a few months later, when 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.200 I was really starting a panic out of the Blue. 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.440 He just called me up and just was like, hey, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:19.760 I don't know what you're doing, but we got this job. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:21.920 He was in marketing, and I didn't ever really want 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.120 to be in marketing, but he said, look, it's in 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.720 publicity and promotion on you kind of a you know, 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.680 number two person on the West Coast overseeing that part 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.720 of it for us in the in the you know, 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.280 feature film business, you know, would you be interested? And 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:37.840 I was like, oh, yeah, let me just check with 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.120 my people. Sure, yeah, I think I could squeeze that in. 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.400 So that was just like a huge breakout of the blue, 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.200 which was really me driving stopping in Atlanta to go 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.360 to Hooters with my idiot friend from Cornell and in Atlanta. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:52.640 So that's how I got it. 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:53.640 Wow. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.480 And then one year later, I mean I did that. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.840 I really was. It was a very interesting experience, but like, yeah, 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:00.360 I don't want to be in marketing. I want to 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.440 be in the creative ent. And then I had just, 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.760 through a bunch of weird connections, kind of wangled my 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.240 way into a dialogue at NBC. And I remember I was, 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:12.640 you know, I was young at that time. I was 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.520 still going out at night during midweek and I remember 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.960 we'd have these long, boring meetings, like three hour staff meetings, 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.200 and I kept falling asleep in them. And one day 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.120 the head of the department of the marketing department like 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.320 threw a ball of paper at me while I was asleep, 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.040 and I woke up and she goes after the meeting, 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:32.600 she goes, can I see you? And she said, look, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.720 you're really bright, and I have no doubt that if 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.120 you stuck with this, you would run this department someday. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.880 But if you don't get your head into it, I'm 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:43.560 going to fire you. And the problem was I was 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.560 interviewing crazily to get out of this job and then 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.960 kind of phoning it in and sort of lost interest 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.800 in it even though thank god I had it. And 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.400 literally two days later I got offered a job at NBC, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.240 and I went in and just told her, like, you 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.080 know what, we're on the same page. I'm quitting. 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.600 So and that was that walking into NBC for the 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.080 first time. Yeah, was there a feeling like was it 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.080 like I've made it, mom? 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.160 Yeah, you know, you just I think, like anything in life, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.439 I mean, for me, those seminal moments when their actual happened, 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.480 even down to like having children, like you're just sort 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:26.240 of like somewhere between overwhelmed in the moment or just like, oh, 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.639 I guess I'm doing this now, you know, I'm right, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.520 I guess this is happening. But then you do have 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.679 this moment, and quite often it would be to me 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:36.480 be you know, when you were busy during the day 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.639 or look I was, you know, half panicked. You're a 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.960 young person, You're slightly into your head. You can't believe 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.760 you even have this job, your busiest shit. A lot 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:46.560 of times it was like at the end of the day, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.640 you know, one of the still things about la when 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.840 the sun's setting and it's just temperature's really nice. I'd 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.760 walk out and you're driving off the lot and you're like, huh. 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.840 You know, I remember watching like for me on the 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.439 NBC lot. It was usually guests leaving as I was 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.000 like driving off the lot, guests leaving from their taping 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.560 of the Tonight Show. So you know, Jay Leno would 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.159 do the Tonight Show. It's still Johnny Carson in those days, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.399 and they you know, would tape from five to seven 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.480 or whatever it was, and when the guests you see 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.080 the limos and you sometimes you'd see them loading up 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.080 in their car and we're driving out together, and those 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.840 are the moments where I was like, cool, I guess 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.600 all right, I'm actually in the real deal here. 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.720 Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It is. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.919 There is that like evening time sun is going down, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.439 like the air it does, it feels different, and if 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:46.280 you sort of transport yourself to your younger self thinking 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.000 about it, and there's like you know, and then you 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.600 get stuck in traffic on you know, yeah that's Burbank 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.159 Boulevard or whatever for an hour and. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.320 A half, streaching halt. Literally, Oh, you're like. 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.920 But there there are those moments where you're like, oh, yeah, 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.880 this is what this is what I think I. 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.160 Have a memory of, specifically early on on my thing, 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.600 driving down Sunset Boulevard. I had put all of the 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.680 money I had on the East Coast saved up into 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.040 this used BMW with one hundred and ten thousand miles 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.440 on it, because I was like, I need a car 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.000 that's not going to I mean, even though it was 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.200 all those things were built like you know, they could 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.199 go forever if you took care of them, and it 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.840 was in such awesome shape, and this was the only 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.720 thing I had. I remember driving down Sunset Boulevard with 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:32.160 the Palm Tree silhouetted and going like, oh man, here 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.159 it is the Disneyland thing that I envisioned, you know, 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.040 still sort of alive and well, I guess. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:44.200 Yeah, So you get hired well by Brandon Tartakoff, first 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.440 manager of Creative Affairs, then the VP of Drama Development. 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:53.640 Talk to me a little bit about your relationship with Tartakoff. Close. 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.800 Good, Yeah, I mean this is a guy like I 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.919 don't you know, I don't know who would be listening 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.560 this out there, but it's some either. You know, this 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.800 was a guy at a time when guys who ultimately 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.600 held the button of like there were you know, three 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.679 doors to access the television world and then only maybe 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.840 four meaningful ways to act, you know, to truly access 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.040 the film world. So if you had one of those 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.359 chairs that kind of opened one of those doors, it 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.199 was a really influential position. And this guy, at a 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.080 very young age was thought of as a genius in television. 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.400 He had been promoted to the head of it when 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:37.240 he was a very young guy, and he was both 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.159 intimidating just by virtue of how great he was, but 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:43.919 I loved him. I mean, like he passed away at 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:45.960 a really young age. He had fought cancer a number 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:50.359 of times and eventually gave into it and in his forties, 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.639 I think, so it kind of gave him that James 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:56.600 Dean sort of status in the business. But he he 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:01.880 was just a witty guy who loved loved the medium. 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.560 He loved great TV. He loved cheesy, fun entertainment. I 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.840 remember one time I was on a plane and of 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:09.680 course he was sitting in first class and I went 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.960 past him, and I remember like he sent a little 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.240 like goofy note back to me. He had ripped something 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.960 out of Variety and made like a joke in the 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.439 column and had like twenty people pass it back to me. 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.040 And I was like, holy shit, like this is like 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:27.440 my boss's boss boss is sending me back his gofy note. 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.080 And I love that about him. So it was a 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.040 cool experience, and you know, cut to it was his 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.159 actual There was times when I would sit in his 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.399 office on the couch, like the fifth one on the 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:39.879 Someone said to me early on when I was like, 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:41.639 how do you get into one of his jobs? He 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:43.440 was a producer, He said, look when I go into 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.480 pitch and I'm pitching tartak cough. There's like six other 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.160 people on the couch drinking evy on. I don't know 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:51.680 what they all do, but you want to be one 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:55.600 of those people. And so I was like the sixth 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.520 one down on the couch drinking Evyon. And I remember 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.280 being in his office and going, I don't know, maybe 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.320 someday I would do this, This would be cool to 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.720 do this. And when I finally did, many years later, 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.080 get that actual job in his actual office, that hadn't 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:12.280 really changed much at all. Even with the Bank of 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.720 there were like eight televisions in a row. It used 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:17.600 to be three, and then they added to the Minimore 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.520 Networks right right, And I always thought that was cool. 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.439 It's like, oh man, he's got all day long, three 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.240 things running all at once so we can watch what's 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.520 happening with the competition. And then when I got there, 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.880 that was a you know, cool moment too. 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:36.840 Yeah, I don't think I realized. I mean, I know 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.359 that I knew at some point that he died that young. 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.520 But it's like, if you talk about NBC in the past, 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.920 you talk about Tartakoff like his name exists, Like yeah, 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.800 I don't know if it's James Dean or Kennedy or 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.320 any of those sort of leaders that unfortunately leave us 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.680 too soon. And and yeah, has that sort of lore 0:22:58.000 --> 0:22:59.080 yet forty eight? 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:00.120 I just go to a forty. 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:22.159 Forty eight Wow. Yeah, while you were there during this time, 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:28.000 you developed, I mean cult legendary Saved by the Bell. 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.560 Talk to me about that. Talk to me about how 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:32.960 Saved by the Bell came about. 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.840 Well, I worked with at the studio. So this idea 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:41.440 that used to be illegal. There were anti trust laws 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:45.960 that prevented the networks from also producing their own things, 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:49.200 so we would just commission from outside studios like Universal 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.840 Television would produce the show for NBC. Those things were 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:55.320 starting to evolve, and I was on the very first 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:59.280 iteration of NBC Studios that became sort of their in house. 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:01.480 So that is how I really got to know Brandon 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:04.960 because there were only three employees at NBC Studios my 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:09.679 second year at the company, which was Brandon, my boss, 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:13.240 Leslie Lurie, and me. So I really did get to 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:15.720 work with him even closer at a young age. And 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:18.919 we were producing this show called Good Morning, Miss Bliss, 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:21.600 about a group of kids in school with Haley Mills, 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.480 who was a famous actress from back in the day, 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:27.480 and she was I don't know, in their late sixties 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:30.320 at this point. Inter thing. It was for the Disney Channel. 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.800 We weren't even producing it for NBC. They canceled it. 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:37.800 It was not good, and Brandon was like, take that, 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:42.120 the cocky blonde kid, these other two girls and the 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:45.360 funny nerdy kid, figure out what it is, and we're 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:47.159 going to do it ourselves and make it ahead and 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:51.040 shove it down their throats. So that was like Brandon's competitiveness, 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.240 Like they canceled his thing, and now he was going 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:57.400 to turn into a hit. And Peter Engel, who I'm 0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:59.560 going to text right now, who God bless him is 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.679 still going and strong in his eighties, who created it 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:05.159 is a one of just a great inspired nut. It 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.440 was my show. I was given this thing. We even 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:11.440 cooked up the title on a phone call one day 0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:13.439 of like, I was like, what is this thing about? 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:16.160 What is it? And Peter's head writer at the time, 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:19.320 I was like, look, this shouldn't be about school when 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:21.360 you're in school. It's about what happens when you're out 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:23.880 of school. And this guy Tom Tender, who had said, yeah, 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:25.719 you know, like say by the Bell, and Peter was like, 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:29.000 that's a great title, and U and that that was 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.720 the and so on my first year I worked on 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:34.000 this thing, and I was sort of depressed, to be 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:36.440 honest with you, because I was like, I spending all 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:39.200 of my time doing this thing, and all the primetime 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:41.960 people are putting up all these really you know, we're 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:46.119 working on like Seinfeld and things that became like institutions, 0:25:46.160 --> 0:25:50.440 and I'm doing this Saturday morning live action kids thing 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:54.000 that no one gives a crap about. Cut to like 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:58.040 five hundred episodes later, the thing became an institution, and 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:02.360 it was intended for like, at the time, tweens watching 0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:05.000 Saturday morning TV, which is like one of the only 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.280 things you had. It was like very few choices when 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:09.800 you woke up. And when what we never realized was 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.639 like a whole generation of college kids, you know, of 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:15.960 that age would wake up and kind of you know, 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:20.639 shake off their Friday night by vegging out watching this show. 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.800 And it became kind of a cult thing. And I 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:26.840 cannot tell you to this day how strong that thing is. 0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:31.119 I mean, God still alive and well, well yeah, I 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:35.320 mean it's it's as you say, cult, but yeah, it 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:40.040 became an institution. I did they really do five hundred episodes? 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:40.320 Is that? 0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:44.119 Well? They did a couple of spin offs then of right, okay, 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.560 California Dreaming, Dreamings or whatever they called. They did a 0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:50.120 fusee iterations, but it was it was in the hundreds, 0:26:50.160 --> 0:26:51.920 all in in the franchise. 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:58.600 You also during that time developed Er Network, and you 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.440 supervised the first season of Law and Order. I mean 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:08.080 these are legendary primetime television shows, both going over twenty seasons. 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:11.120 So I guess they let you off of the Saturday 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:11.880 morning event. 0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:14.159 They did they did, yeah, yeah, then I kind of 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:19.000 came back and did that again. Crazy. You know, the 0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:21.800 success squeaks its three through in weird ways, you know, 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:25.199 like we went through in the Office, where you know, 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:30.639 a super impactful generational show barely squeaked its way through life. 0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:32.800 I mean that was my experience more often than not. 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:35.440 I mean Law and Order, which is now thought of 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:38.120 as like this insane institution. You know, for a lot 0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.040 of listeners are probably like, yeah, my mother's watched it forever, 0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:45.080 But at the time it was this very novel thing. 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:49.359 Dramas were not selling into syndication because nobody wanted to 0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:52.359 buy one hour shows, so Dick Wolf literally designed it 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:55.760 as two half hour shows originally that we're going to 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.960 do the Law and the Order, but then they could 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:02.199 be joined on the first run on television, but then 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:06.439 they would be syndicated separately. NBC bought this show not 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:09.280 because they wanted this. This was Dick's like big show, 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:12.000 but they wanted his hit show, which was going to 0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:15.679 be a thing called Nasty Boys, which was these guys 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:17.880 with a souped up boat and they were a squad 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:20.320 that came in in masks and they seized your property 0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:23.040 for drug raids and things, and when they did, they 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:25.800 got to keep it. So they had super cool motorcycles 0:28:25.840 --> 0:28:28.600 and boats. And it was not a good show. And 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:32.040 I'm working on I'm, you know, now, only a couple 0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:34.480 of years into my career, and they kind of gave 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.960 them to me in this and I oversaw them and 0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:40.520 everybody's like, how's Nasty Boys going. I was like, you 0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:42.920 know this thing, Law and Order is like really, oh yeah, 0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:46.880 that's talk about Nasty Boys. So Nasty Boys aired, I 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:49.760 think it like came and went in less than one season, 0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:53.240 and Law and Order was not a huge hit of 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.320 the gate, but was always a very kind of groundbreaking 0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:59.080 show at the time in terms of its rhythms and 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:01.440 the kind of the hour. It was one of the 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:05.080 early shows that talked took policing as police was kind 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:07.800 of talking about a job, you know, like guys would 0:29:07.800 --> 0:29:10.920 be there like you know, talking about their donuts and 0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:12.920 sort of stepping over the body, not like the old 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:15.280 cops who were like, we just solve this case, you know, 0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:18.400 which was like the old school way, like they're like, yeah, look, 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:20.360 we see a lot of this stuff. And you know, 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:24.120 witnesses weren't cooperative and lawyers had to make deals, and 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.000 it was those were like kind of a step forward. 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:29.320 And then you know, that was an institution. And then 0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:31.320 Er was a similar kind of thing where it was 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:34.280 when it was screened, it was in the screening room 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:36.840 from the powers. It'd be were like, we don't get it. 0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:40.880 Right. Talk to me a little bit. Because those two 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:45.440 shows I consider at least differently what people refer to 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:51.440 as procedurals. Yeah, and then there's what's the opposite. 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:54.600 Of that, Well, there were serialized shows, so two different things. 0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:57.160 So the procedural means a closed ended thing, you know, 0:29:57.200 --> 0:29:59.120 and That's one of the reasons that Law and Order 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:02.280 had such incredible staying power. You didn't need to see 0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:04.880 season one, you didn't need to bing season five to 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:07.600 catch up. You just you could drop into any episode 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.520 a body dropped in the beginning, and the crime was solved. 0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:14.160 At the end, case closed, and they've done I don't 0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:16.200 know at this point, between the franchise of all the 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:19.640 different iterations, I don't know how many hundreds of episodes, 0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:23.680 thousands maybe at this point. But a serial show, which 0:30:24.400 --> 0:30:27.600 Er was, and many other great shows and many of 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:31.720 the biggest shows today are you know, it's an ongoing storyline. Now. 0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:35.360 You had procedural elements in Er, which is, you know, 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:39.200 the the medical cases would close, you know, come on, 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:41.760 stat get on the thing coming away with somebody's gonna 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:42.560 lose She's gonna. 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:42.920 Lose the baby. 0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:44.440 You know, oh great, at the end of the thing 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:46.920 they saved the baby, like so all right, so that's closed. 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:50.560 But the ongoing soap opera part of it, if you will, 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:53.320 would go on sometimes the whole season, right, and then 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.400 you had to kind of catch up, and you know, 0:30:55.680 --> 0:30:57.920 it was really weird. You know, it was a very 0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:01.200 sticky way of watching television. But you think about it now, 0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:03.480 there was no catchup or binge device. You had to 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:04.640 just kind of watch to stay. 0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:08.120 You had to watch for you on the network side, 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:12.040 how do you make those decisions if you're going to 0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:15.720 pick up, are you looking for a balance of both 0:31:15.800 --> 0:31:19.400 that you might be able to sell later on or 0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:20.640 how are those decisions made? 0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:23.880 You know, the business is just so radically different now. 0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:28.520 I mean, obviously with the ability to bringe something and 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:33.320 watch at your own pace and start from the beginning 0:31:33.640 --> 0:31:36.880 with streaming. You know, when you had a one way 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:40.320 situation where it was a day and date, like it's 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:42.640 on Tuesday at nine and you have to watch it 0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:46.480 Tuesday at nine and it may repeat somewhere down the road, 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:49.880 but that it would be your only opportunity to watch. 0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:52.760 I think generationally you explain that to people, and it's 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:56.200 like trying to explain the telegraph. You know, you're like, 0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:00.640 what why would you do that? Like this and buggy 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:04.320 thing like that sounds ridiculous. And what was crazy is 0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:08.000 the statistic of viewers somebody who viewed them. I used 0:32:08.040 --> 0:32:10.480 to hear the statistic all the time, even somebody considered 0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:13.360 this self a viewer. Statistically would watch one out of 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:16.200 six episodes, So I don't know how anybody followed anything, 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:20.160 but it was a lot of things went into it 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:24.240 of like you know, still serialized shows did not repeat 0:32:24.360 --> 0:32:27.520 well at all because you just were it was just 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:31.680 really hard to jump in and randomly see an episode 0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:35.200 and we're like, wait, when did they split up? You know, 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:37.240 I missed that episode. I don't even know what's going on. 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:40.880 Really dent shows, you know, like I mean, look the 0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:44.720 early seminal shows like A Hill Street Blues that really 0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:48.960 started multiple storylines going at the same time over the 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:53.960 course of a season really made them big impact. But 0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:57.560 for a day and date experience, it was always a 0:32:57.600 --> 0:32:59.200 little harder to program those things. 0:32:59.760 --> 0:33:00.000 Yeah. 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:04.160 So yeah, now that tends to be the norm because 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:07.720 it's highly addictive. As you know, when you're when you're 0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:09.600 into a storyline, it feels like you just got to 0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:12.640 keep watching, watching, to the point of a binge. 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:16.720 Today, why did you leave NBC and go to Borlstein Gray? 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:22.640 I had just sort of gotten the network had gone 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.520 through a roller coaster of being the top and then 0:33:26.280 --> 0:33:28.840 kind of getting beat up and having some management changes, 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:32.040 and it just felt like time to make a change. 0:33:32.120 --> 0:33:34.880 I you know, the Tartakoff had left at that point. 0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:38.080 He hadn't passed on, but he had left. It was 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:42.320 it was not being that much fun. I was getting frustrated. 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:46.280 I mean, look, as a young guy, I to the 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:48.800 extent I've made any reputations in the business, I always 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:51.160 felt like I wanted to reach forward, like you were saying, 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.880 curious about what people were watching and what they wanted 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:58.720 to watch differently than what was on. You know, there's 0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:02.120 a tendency in general for people to want to do 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:07.600 what they've seen before, and in television it wasn't that 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:10.840 much desire. You know, the old Guard to a large 0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:13.440 degree kind of wanted to just serve up the same 0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:15.720 aversion of the same thing they'd done a million times before. 0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:18.279 I was always like, what's next, What's new? And I 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:22.400 could feel generationally that this thing was really changing. I 0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:25.400 mean that's how some of these shows like Er that 0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:29.640 were like what do you mean the patient dies and 0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:31.960 the doctor's making what do you mean the doctors are 0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.120 making jokes while they've got somebody's chest open, the bullet 0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:38.040 with a bullet wound, Like that's you know, that's not 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:40.240 what the heroes do. What do you mean, a bad 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:43.640 guy is the center of a show. These were rules 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:45.440 you didn't break, and I was always like, well, why 0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:48.680 wouldn't you like that's kind of what the my generation 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:51.359 I could see the next one wanted, and so I 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:55.839 was just getting kind of frustrated that this wasn't changing enough. 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:58.760 So then brill Sen Gray was just this management company 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:01.240 that had big clients that wanted to go into producing, 0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:03.920 and it seemed like a cool move, and so that's 0:35:03.960 --> 0:35:04.359 what I did. 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:09.000 While you were there, you worked on many shows, to 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:12.960 name a few, just shoot Me News Radio, Steve Harvey Show, 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:15.800 and you also worked on the pilot of this little 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:21.399 show called The Sopranos. As The Sopranos is happening, are 0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:23.680 you aware of how good it is or what it 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:24.799 has the potential to be? 0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:28.640 Not initially, because again it was another failure. I mean, 0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:33.840 it was so fascinating to be throughout my career is 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.640 that most of the things that have ended up in 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:42.879 my resume and my bio were failures that became the successes. 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:45.960 You know. I mean David Chase, who created it, I 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:49.760 knew him through you know, David was in his fifties 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:52.719 at this point, and he had been a one of 0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:56.160 the really fine television writers. He was a rule breaker. 0:35:56.760 --> 0:36:00.360 You know. David's a guy who's always frustrated with this system. 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.319 He wanted to do something more artistic than the formula, 0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:05.000 and he did it to pay the bills, but he 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:06.920 was always grumbling about it. He's like, I'm doing this 0:36:06.960 --> 0:36:11.200 goddamn thing. So we ended up giving him an overall deal. 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:14.960 He was always like a new one of the better writers, 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:20.319 pure writers. And we developed the sopranos for we sold 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:23.080 it to Fox, and Fox was the upstart network that 0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:26.399 was doing quote unquote edgy stuff, and it went into 0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:28.439 development and it got all the way down the loan 0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:33.279 line and we LaPaglia for a minute was attached as 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:37.319 Conny's soprano, and we had at least interest from his 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:39.239 camp and we were going to get it made, and 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:43.320 then Fox passed on it, and then David was depressed, 0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:47.640 and it kicked around for like two years just as 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:51.560 a passed on project, and eventually found its way over 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:54.480 to HBO, who sort of picked it up to redevelop it, 0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:58.879 but pretty much had the same script that we had 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:03.560 at Fox. It wasn't really written and just took the 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:05.839 Fox out of it. You know, we took all the 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.200 stuff that you couldn't air on broadcasts and then just 0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:11.160 put it back in right and did a little bit 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:15.120 more development, and then then they agreed to shoot the 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:19.320 pilot and went through this casting process of the really 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:25.600 inspired choice to cast Gandelfini, who was really the opposite 0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.400 of a leading man, but you can't conceive of anybody 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:29.279 else doing that role. 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:33.000 Yeah, after you shoot the pilot and you see what 0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:36.960 you have, do you see it? Like, are you able 0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:43.080 to see that it's going to change HBO and paid television. 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:45.880 Our company had done the Larry was doing the Larry 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:48.760 Sanders Show for it. Okay, so this is early early 0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:51.960 HBO where they did two shows and we produced two 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:54.920 of them. We did Deaf Comedy Jam, which was actually 0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:58.160 a very big show for them, and then at the 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:01.399 opposite end of that spectrum the Larry's Sanders Show, which 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:06.320 was kind of, you know, a coastal show, really smart comedy. 0:38:06.880 --> 0:38:09.480 It was it was a fraction of the audience of 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:10.440 Death Comedy Jam. 0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:12.240 Interesting. 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:14.680 But so they were HbA always trying to find their 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:18.839 footing too, and collectively, I think everyone was just sort 0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:21.279 of wading into this thing. So it was clearly the 0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:27.200 pilot was clearly something special. But I will say for me, 0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:30.279 anything I've ever been involved in I thought was good. 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:32.680 You never go I've never said the words this is 0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:34.560 a hit. You know, you look at it and you go, 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:38.360 this is first like, this is a thing. There's something here, 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:41.960 and if we keep doing this, it's gonna be good, 0:38:42.080 --> 0:38:44.399 and if we get a little lucky, it actually will 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:47.560 be something significant. And that's just the way I've always 0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:50.560 looked at it. I've never been surprised, like, oh my god, 0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:53.080 I had no idea that was good. But I've certainly 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:57.400 been surprised on the downside times. But I've definitely been 0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:02.080 surprised when fine, not pleasantly, like oh my god, they're 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.040 catching on to what we've known for a while. So, yeah, 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:08.160 the pilot was and Chris Albrick at the time, and 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:10.560 I've told him this story. I went over to screen 0:39:10.760 --> 0:39:13.160 the pilot and he screened it with Carolyn Strausho has 0:39:13.200 --> 0:39:16.120 gone on to produce many great things, most recently The 0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:19.279 Last of Us for HBO, which was incredible and at 0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:22.319 the end, and I told Chris's story, he doesn't even 0:39:22.400 --> 0:39:24.919 recall doing it, but the lights came up and Chris 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:29.440 literally put his head in his hands and was rubbing 0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:32.200 his eyes and it felt like it felt like five 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:35.160 minutes of silence, and then he looked up and he 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:39.839 was like, it's good. It's really good. And I think 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.919 he had to just wrap his hands around like this 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:47.520 weird thing of where this guy burns down his best 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:50.640 friend's restaurant and he's wading in a pool with ducks. 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:53.160 I think he just had to be like, okay, like 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:56.040 I think we'll do this, and weirdly, the moment where 0:39:56.040 --> 0:40:00.040 you really really felt like it's been written about, but 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:02.440 there was, I believe the fourth episode because prior to 0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:07.200 that point, Tony had never directly he had circumstantially ordered 0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:09.960 hits or had talked about You knew he had his 0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:12.440 hands and stuff, but you never saw it directly or 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:14.920 you never you never saw him directly go go kill 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:17.719 that fucking guy and then somebody's It was indirect a 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:19.399 lot of times, and that was part of the art 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:21.520 of it, you know. There was like the presumption like, eh, 0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:24.200 we did what we had to do in the fourth 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:26.320 I believe it was a fourth episode of that season, 0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:29.040 that seminal episode where he's taken his daughter on a 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:32.000 college trip and he sees a guy who's right is wrong, 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:34.560 and he chokes the guy to death with his bare hands. 0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:39.120 And that was that was a you know now where 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:42.360 everything that's transpired since feels like, well, yeah, what's the 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:44.839 big deal. But at the time you're like, wait, this 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:48.239 is the quote unquote hero of our show. It's one 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:50.160 thing to know he's a bad guy, but he's a 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:52.040 bad guy who we kind of like, and he likes 0:40:52.120 --> 0:40:54.560 ducks and his mom doesn't treat him well. So we 0:40:54.600 --> 0:40:57.160 were like, but now he is choking someone to death 0:40:57.200 --> 0:40:59.480 with his bare hands. That's a whole different ballgame. Like 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:02.200 people going to just go I'm out, Like I'm out, 0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:05.680 I can't get behind this guy. And it was a 0:41:05.800 --> 0:41:09.000 huge debate, and HBO, to their credit, this was the 0:41:09.040 --> 0:41:13.760 early days of them forming their DNA, basically said okay, 0:41:13.920 --> 0:41:16.600 well back you. I mean they first were freaking out, 0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:19.240 but they agreed to back it, and at that moment 0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:22.759 was when I think a lot of people involved were 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:26.719 sort of like, Wow, now this thing is really in 0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:29.560 a category of it's and I think many for them 0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:31.879 just galvanize this thing of like you got to see 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:32.520 the show. 0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:36.520 Right, do you think your experience working on that and 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:39.920 the success that it had. How much do you think 0:41:39.920 --> 0:41:43.640 that that influenced choices that you made in your career 0:41:43.680 --> 0:41:46.000 once you became the boss later on? 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:50.400 Hugely influential. I mean it had been building all the 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:52.600 way up with the number of things you've even just 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:58.000 referenced of what my playbook and things my reference points 0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:01.160 were were not anything that the same old, same old 0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:05.160 that I now was accumulating touchstones of things where I go, oh, 0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:07.200 here's where we stuck the finger in the eye of 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:09.160 what you were supposed to do and it worked out great, 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:13.799 right so creatively in terms of the work, Yes, that 0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:15.680 became a huge north starter. 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:37.760 You become president of Entertainment at FX at the time 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:42.560 you transform that network. I mean that network you know 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:47.359 before you arrived, doing a lot of syndication, shitty, just 0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:51.840 terrible reruns and one of my other favorite shows of 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:56.480 all time that changed television. It's one thing to have 0:42:56.520 --> 0:43:00.440 a mobster strangle somebody. When you start talking about the 0:43:00.480 --> 0:43:05.560 shield you've you've now got cops who are doing very 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:11.080 very naughty things. Was your decision and your confidence in 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:15.520 green lighting that and having that show go? Does that 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:18.480 come from the Sopranos and the success. 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:23.440 I just the business of it was that, for all 0:43:23.480 --> 0:43:29.560 of its impact, HBO's audience penetration at the time, there 0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:33.600 was about one hundred and ten million viewing households in 0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.520 the country that could get television of some sort. Even 0:43:36.600 --> 0:43:40.840 cable was getting pretty highly penetrated at that point, you know, 0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:45.560 basic cable, but HBO's subscription cable, they were only in 0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:49.120 about twenty eight million homes, so only a fraction of 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:52.319 the whole country had even gotten to see They may 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:54.919 have heard of the Sopranos. But I was like Peter 0:43:55.040 --> 0:43:58.280 Legori and I who kind of were in the seats 0:43:58.320 --> 0:44:00.560 at the time. Peter had been at HBO as a 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.359 marketing executive. His history was not as creative. I came 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:08.920 over there and we basically said, let's get as close 0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:12.759 as we can to HBO on basic cable. You know, 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:15.040 we can't do everything they do, but we're going to 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:18.439 try to be as sort of finger in your eye 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:22.400 as possible. And this was written as a spec script, 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:24.600 as a writing sample. It was given to me by 0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:27.200 and somebody said you should read this. This guy, Sean Ryan, 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:28.520 is a good writer. And I read it, and I 0:44:28.520 --> 0:44:29.640 met with him, and I said, well, we're going to 0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:31.759 make this, and he goes, what do you mean, And 0:44:31.840 --> 0:44:34.279 I go, we'll make this. He goes like that. I go, yeah, 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:37.920 we'll make this, and he still he couldn't believe it. 0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:39.960 He was a young guy, had never run a show. 0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:43.360 And it was truly one of the great experiences of 0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:45.640 my career, just the whole thing it went down. We 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:48.600 were it was such a ragtag shitty I took a 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:50.879 pay cut to go to that job. I went from 0:44:50.880 --> 0:44:55.480 these beautiful offices in Beverly Hills with magnificent literally recognizable 0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:57.680 art on the wall and the designer would have to 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:03.040 approve your furniture choice to the this shithole on Suppulvita Boulevard. 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:07.799 Literally there was it was shag carpeting from like the eighties. 0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:10.520 There was a giant stain in the middle of it. 0:45:11.440 --> 0:45:13.480 There was a hole. Someone had punched a hole in 0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:15.600 the wall of my office and just hung a picture 0:45:15.680 --> 0:45:18.240 over it, but not it didn't fully cover the hole. 0:45:19.200 --> 0:45:23.120 And so it was just felt like, what this really 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:28.000 ragtag operation? And we kind of made this thing and 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:32.360 under the radar, I remember, you know, technically it was 0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:35.640 an ADS supported network. We screened this for advertisers in 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:39.080 New York, and like dozens of them bolted for the 0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:41.200 door after the lights came up. They like didn't even 0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:42.759 want to look us in the eye. They're like, we're 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:45.920 not putting. And I remember Donna Speciali, who became I 0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:47.920 worked with for years at Turner, was the head of 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:50.880 ad sales who I really loved. At the time, she 0:45:50.960 --> 0:45:53.080 was at some I forget what agency was. She was 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:55.640 a big buyer, and she came up She's like, I 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:57.640 really like this and I'm gonna watch you guys, and 0:45:57.640 --> 0:45:59.279 I'm gonna see how this goes. I'm not putting a 0:45:59.360 --> 0:46:02.120 nickel into this show. And the only the only thing 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:04.760 that the only advertiser we had was Mike's Hard Lemonade 0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:07.840 on FX. They literally nobody else would touch it but 0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:10.120 Mike's Hard Lemonade. And then we just filled it with 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:13.360 Mattress King commercials and a bunch of shitty local stuff, 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:16.479 right nobody, you know, that stuff was too too edgy 0:46:16.480 --> 0:46:19.000 for them to put any advertising in. But that was 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:24.719 like the foundational DNA for the network. And I recently 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:26.560 caught up and Binge the Bear. I don't know if 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:30.560 you saw it. I loved it. Blew me away. I 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:33.400 thought it was brilliant, and I was like, man, there 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:35.880 it is some of that same DNA still in that place. 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:41.960 Yeah, in addition to the shield Nip tuck, Rescue Me, Yeah, 0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:45.480 a very very different sort. What is Rescue Me a 0:46:45.480 --> 0:46:46.480 comedy or a drama? 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:50.799 Yes? I only bought the I bought only bought the 0:46:50.840 --> 0:46:54.760 original script, and then I had transitioned over to NBC. 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:57.200 I was already in transition. I had the job, and 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.160 I had the in my side pocket, while I in 0:47:00.200 --> 0:47:02.759 my right pocket was kind of Rescue Me, and in 0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:04.880 my left pocket was this thing called the Office that 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:06.360 I'd be given the tape of that. I was like, 0:47:06.360 --> 0:47:08.680 all right, I'm not making that at effects. I'm going 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:09.120 to NBC. 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:13.840 Yeah. We talked a lot about the Office being the 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.960 savior of the Office. My name is Earl, which you 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:20.560 know saved the Office as well. So thank you for 0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:26.319 that one thirty rock Yeah, Friday Night Lights heroes, I mean, 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:29.840 and then on the unscripted side, Dealer, no deal, America's 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:34.200 got talent, and many many more. This is incredible. The 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:37.799 year that you you will you leave again. In two 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:45.239 thousand and seven, sixty nine Emmy nominations that year across 0:47:45.280 --> 0:47:49.160 all of these shows. It's I mean, it's a huge 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:55.160 legacy that you left. You leave to go to Fox. 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:59.520 But talk to me a little bit about that transition 0:47:59.800 --> 0:48:03.560 they for you, do you feel like you got treated unfairly? 0:48:04.920 --> 0:48:06.799 Look at the time, I would say, what was so 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:13.680 ironic is the four years NBC had really gotten very 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:17.799 entitled of you know, the landscape was really changing. At 0:48:17.800 --> 0:48:21.319 this point. There were you know, bonafide four networks now 0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:24.160 for you know, about a decade at that point, since 0:48:24.239 --> 0:48:27.600 eighty eight when Fox was founded. Only towards the end 0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:30.440 how they launched this little show called American Idol. So 0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:32.840 Fox was about to go. You know, they had the 0:48:32.880 --> 0:48:35.560 Simpsons and things like that, so it was X files. 0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:38.960 Fox was really a bonafide challenger and always sort of 0:48:39.000 --> 0:48:40.960 did a lot of pounds for a pound of cool 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:44.920 stuff that I always thought was cool on television. NBC 0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:47.040 had been at the top and gotten you know, on 0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:53.920 the front the er Friends, Seinfeld trifecta was just a juggernaut. 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.719 But it was beginning to you know, Seinfeld had gone off, 0:48:57.920 --> 0:49:01.120 it was coming down. Friends was on its last days. 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:04.040 Law and Order was still on, but had you know, 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:05.520 they had all come down to earth and you could 0:49:05.560 --> 0:49:07.360 see the writing on the wall that it was about 0:49:07.360 --> 0:49:11.160 to really go from hanging on to the top to 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:14.719 being bad, being in trouble. And that's when I joined. 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:17.040 And I was very naive, thinking, well, I'm just going 0:49:17.080 --> 0:49:18.719 to be the savior of this place and I'll be 0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:21.160 like Brandon Tartakoff, I'll turn it around and everyone will 0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:25.120 tell me I'm a genius. But now we're also fighting 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:28.880 a broader environment. You know where it's the beginning the 0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:33.120 early early stages of digital consumption generationally. You know this 0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:35.719 idea of watching day and day, and I know this 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:39.800 in my gut. I'm like broadcast television in my mind, 0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:44.440 is in its last breadths of dominance. It's but I 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:47.440 was like, everybody's got to face the facts that NBC, 0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.960 the juggernaut, that of what it was of turning on 0:49:51.120 --> 0:49:55.160 must see TV Thursday night, those days are not coming back. 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:59.239 And I just felt like it needed to be rebuilt 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:02.319 from the ground up with really cool stuff that the 0:50:02.360 --> 0:50:07.800 next generation wanted to watch. Even if Grant Tinker early 0:50:07.840 --> 0:50:11.520 in his career, who was Brandon Tartakoff's boss, he at 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:13.840 the time when they rebuilt it way back in a 0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:18.239 different era had this expression saying, first, be best, then 0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:21.720 be first, And I always love that, and I always 0:50:21.760 --> 0:50:26.000 thought it was really meaningful. First, be best, then be first. 0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:29.640 When you're a first place network, that means billions of dollars, 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:33.600 that means profits, That means everyone gets big fat bonuses 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:37.520 and bragging rights. Right when your best but not first 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:40.960 and have slipped and you're losing starting to lose a 0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:44.280 lot of that money. Not so fun on the business level. 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:47.320 We were owned by General Electric at this and ge 0:50:47.520 --> 0:50:50.600 was just used to this little cash machine. Just Seinfeld 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:53.440 comes and sell, you know, tells jokes at our giant 0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:57.600 retreat to guys who make locomotives and turbines and tractors 0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:00.880 and so cool. And then you know, we were a 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:03.640 small business in the GEO portfolio, but we paid a 0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:06.280 lot of cash, so it was a fast cycle business. 0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:09.560 You know, when you're making jet engines, that's a big 0:51:09.600 --> 0:51:13.360 capital thing that doesn't pay out for long cycles. You know, 0:51:13.440 --> 0:51:15.600 in television, you have a season and at the end 0:51:15.600 --> 0:51:18.319 of the season, it's like, oh, here's the cash, and 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:21.840 you can just it's available. It's not tied up in 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:24.520 this big thing. So they liked us. We were just 0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:26.520 a big cash machine, but all of a sudden when 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:33.600 it started turning really challenging and cash intensive, not so 0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:37.080 much fun from Fairfield. And you know, as somebody said 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:39.560 back in the day, they send them guys with the clipboards. 0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:41.520 And when they send the guys with the clipboards there 0:51:41.560 --> 0:51:44.319 to help, you really don't want the help. Like it's 0:51:44.360 --> 0:51:47.960 a bunch of consultants and people going, Brian, how are you? 0:51:48.120 --> 0:51:49.279 How are things? 0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:50.000 So? 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:52.080 Why would you have done that? Why would you have 0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:54.680 put on that kind of show? For example? People don't 0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:57.080 seem to enjoy and you're trying to tell this like 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:02.200 walk from Fairfield, Like, first of all, you are a 0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:06.480 tight ass NBA who has zero You don't even you 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:09.359 have bad loafers on. You certainly don't have a feel 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:12.880 for fucking culture. Go talk to the jet engine guys, 0:52:12.960 --> 0:52:15.880 because you are not going to fix this place. And 0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:19.399 the building was crawling with those people. So I'm trying 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:22.319 to put on some of these cool shows only other 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:25.600 than Heroes, which was a bit of a hit right 0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:27.200 at the gate and kind of a cultural thing, but 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:30.960 not enough like Friends to single handedly turn the network around. 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:34.600 And I thought we were doing really cool work but 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:37.640 to be honest with you, I was getting almost not 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:40.680 only was I not getting credit, I was getting nothing 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:44.000 but second guessing. I was rumored to be fired every 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:47.680 other week. And so again like a really I went 0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:50.759 from this incredible FX thing where it was like the 0:52:50.800 --> 0:52:53.200 most fun thing, but it was three years and all 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:56.120 of a sudden, I had that dream job. I thought 0:52:56.160 --> 0:52:58.680 back at Brandon Tardakoff's desk with the actual thing. And 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.200 even the day I did the job, I got an 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:04.560 award called the Brandon Tartakoff Award, which was like kind 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:06.560 of like the best of the best in broadcasting. And 0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:09.680 I went down and got the award in Miami, and 0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:12.000 I kind of told that story like I had the 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:14.719 day I got it, I had this sinking feeling. I 0:53:14.760 --> 0:53:18.200 sat at his desk, I looked up at the Bank 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:21.560 of Televisions and I was like, this is fucking cool, 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:25.480 and I have made a terrible, terrible mistake coming here. 0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:30.560 And so what was awesome is that the shows, the 0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:32.920 stuff we did I was always really proud of, and 0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:36.440 it all then went on to have cultural impact and 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:38.920 then business impact, like the office that is one of 0:53:38.960 --> 0:53:42.520 the biggest assets in their whole portfolio today but as 0:53:42.560 --> 0:53:46.200 we lived, it didn't start that way, and so you know, 0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:48.600 I was pretty much invited to not do that job 0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:51.920 after four years. And yeah, I was pretty fucking uh 0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:54.040 I was not. I was pretty bent out of shape 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:54.480 over it all. 0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:59.520 Yeah, Fox gladly takes you, yeah. 0:53:59.360 --> 0:54:02.759 Very quickly. Like I was like, oh my god, that's 0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:05.040 what I was doing. I was setting into staff meetings 0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:07.319 and going NBC, I mean Fox, Like, I kept like, 0:54:07.440 --> 0:54:09.239 I'm like, what am I doing back in one of 0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:10.799 these places? They can't believe it? 0:54:12.080 --> 0:54:16.759 Go on to have huge success at Fox Brooklyn nine nine, 0:54:16.760 --> 0:54:19.600 A lot of office folks by the way that you 0:54:19.600 --> 0:54:26.000 you bring over there, Mindy Project, Last New Girl, Glee, 0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:30.239 as well as tons of animated hits. Yeah, of all 0:54:30.280 --> 0:54:32.160 of the show I have a question of all the 0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:36.120 shows that you've done, and don't pander because I'm here, 0:54:37.040 --> 0:54:39.839 what are you the most proud of? 0:54:40.920 --> 0:54:44.120 There's there's different things for different different moments, you know, 0:54:44.239 --> 0:54:46.440 I mean you were you were talking about the Shield 0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:50.280 and that experience of kind of all of a sudden 0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:54.960 making a service, like completely repositioning a service that then 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:59.960 went from a money losing, irrelevant thing to a profit 0:55:01.280 --> 0:55:05.320 what became kind of a really meaningful brand was and 0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:08.200 we had so much fun. I mean, we were just 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:11.080 those shows you mentioned, and you know, we won the 0:55:11.120 --> 0:55:15.200 first Primetime Emmy and Golden Globes Awards. I mean when 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:17.760 Michael Chickliss first got up to take the first Emmy, 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:20.000 I literally grabbed his arm like what are you doing, 0:55:20.080 --> 0:55:22.000 Like you didn't win, and he was like he looked 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:23.840 at me and he's like, just go with it, because 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:26.080 he did win, and everybody was like, what the hell 0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:29.920 is that? So there's experiences like that. I've had, you know, 0:55:30.320 --> 0:55:34.360 moments in other shows, but all kidding aside the experience 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:39.320 of the office where it was. Look, at that point, 0:55:39.360 --> 0:55:42.799 I had made a decision I'm probably going to get 0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:45.520 fired from this job at some point. I'm hanging on 0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:48.440 by a thread. I am going to just fall on 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:51.440 my sword for the things I believe in. And somebody 0:55:51.440 --> 0:55:52.960 had given me his advice like the worst thing you 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:55.400 could do is sell out and do what the bosses 0:55:55.440 --> 0:55:58.440 want you to and then fail. Then you can't even 0:55:58.480 --> 0:56:00.960 look yourself in the mirror. So I was like, if 0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:03.359 they fire me, at least I want to say even 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:06.000 if they don't work, I want to say, well, I 0:56:06.080 --> 0:56:09.600 put on what I believed because I have that power 0:56:09.640 --> 0:56:13.160 to fight for some things. And the office was just 0:56:13.800 --> 0:56:15.799 I don't know, just from a minute one, I'm like, 0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:18.680 this is this is one of those ones. I'm just 0:56:18.760 --> 0:56:21.480 not giving up on this thing. And then because it 0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:24.439 had like really good people involved and it was such 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:26.279 a moment in time for all of us. You know, 0:56:26.680 --> 0:56:28.680 I'm looking at our picture here, Brian, when you know, 0:56:29.200 --> 0:56:31.000 at the When we Want Night, we won the Emmy 0:56:31.040 --> 0:56:33.560 and they're hoisting me up, and I love looking at 0:56:33.560 --> 0:56:36.799 that photo, not just because it's it's pure, you know. 0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:39.640 I mean, as we know, show business is a is 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:43.040 a rough and tumble game man, and and everybody's got 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:46.280 scars to do, you know. I just shared some of mine, 0:56:46.360 --> 0:56:49.960 you know, And but it's in its pure moment when 0:56:50.000 --> 0:56:52.520 the thing happens and it's sort of coming out the 0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:56.520 way you dreamed you And look, some talented people are 0:56:56.920 --> 0:57:01.719 are very complicated. I had a really amazing experience on 0:57:01.840 --> 0:57:06.880 thirty Rock. I adore Tina. She's an incredible talent. Tina 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:11.359 had a star named Alec Baldwin. Enormously talented guy and 0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:16.240 obviously publicly enormously complicated. And so you know, there's a 0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:19.280 you know, as Lauren said one point after Alec quit 0:57:19.400 --> 0:57:22.920 for the fourteenth time, after he had won the Emmy 0:57:22.960 --> 0:57:25.120 the night before, his agent calls up to say, I 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:27.240 just have to inform you that Alec is quitting the show, 0:57:27.240 --> 0:57:29.080 which is at this point literally was about the seventh 0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:32.240 and I remember Lauren at the time saying, Alec will 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:35.040 realize in retrospect it this was a good time, you know, 0:57:35.320 --> 0:57:39.440 And but when you're in it, and this moment of 0:57:39.480 --> 0:57:41.600 this picture I'm literally looking at of my left eye 0:57:41.600 --> 0:57:46.760 over here, is pure joy for people who some of 0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:49.200 whom needed a job and had a great one, and 0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:53.040 others who just realized they were part of something special 0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:56.600 and we got the affirmation. And that just for me, 0:57:56.720 --> 0:57:59.560 and the fact really as it is for you, the 0:57:59.600 --> 0:58:01.320 fact that then it went on to be one of 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:04.280 those rare shows where like now now you're into like 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:09.880 kids who weren't even born are at the time we're watching, and. 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:11.360 I really love it. 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:14.880 You know. That's that those are really rare at this era, 0:58:14.960 --> 0:58:16.040 and so that's a pretty cool. 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:20.040 Yeah, do you consider yourself a creative. 0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:23.240 Yes, in my heart, I've always had that temperament. I 0:58:23.240 --> 0:58:26.840 think it's why I both succeeded in a certain respect 0:58:27.000 --> 0:58:29.800 would and some of those struggles I will say that 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:32.640 I had that I'm outlining with the system and the man. 0:58:34.120 --> 0:58:38.000 I just never wanted to be like the bureaucrat suit 0:58:38.120 --> 0:58:41.000 that is just in the suite going like sure thing, 0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:43.840 let's just do that because that's safe and we'll keep 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:47.800 our jobs. I was always kind of an irritant, and 0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:51.440 I think those who appreciated it, and probably at a 0:58:51.440 --> 0:58:53.760 younger age, I was too much, you know at times, 0:58:53.800 --> 0:58:56.840 you know, they were just they don't want you always 0:58:57.240 --> 0:58:59.840 trying to rock the boat. So you know, that's part 0:58:59.880 --> 0:59:03.320 of what a creative is, you know. And the entrepreneurs 0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:04.200 are a version of that. 0:59:04.280 --> 0:59:04.520 There. 0:59:05.360 --> 0:59:08.680 They want to press up, they want to do what 0:59:08.920 --> 0:59:11.000 other people haven't done, and they got to kind of 0:59:11.000 --> 0:59:14.440 have a blind belief in their ideas. And so yeah, 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:17.720 that's where I'm the most comfortable, and that's why I'm look, 0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:21.320 I'm not ever going back to those jobs again. Those 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:23.040 big executive jobs are behind me. 0:59:24.640 --> 0:59:30.280 Bill Lawrence, co creator of Spence City Scrubs, was quoted 0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:33.720 as saying, every morning, all the writers start the day 0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:37.480 with a cup of coffee talking about what assholes the 0:59:37.520 --> 0:59:42.200 network executives are Kevin seems like one of us enough 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:44.720 that you find yourself not hating him. 0:59:46.160 --> 0:59:48.080 That's so funny. You know, I've known Bill a long time. 0:59:48.080 --> 0:59:49.800 I haven't seen it was literally my neighbor for a 0:59:49.800 --> 0:59:52.200 bunch of years in my house just before this one, 0:59:52.240 --> 0:59:55.560 and I really appreciate hearing that. But he's funny. 0:59:56.360 --> 1:00:14.400 That's perfect Bill. 1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:19.160 We're in a historic moment right now. It's clear whatever 1:00:19.280 --> 1:00:23.200 happens with the resolution of these strikes, both the WGA 1:00:23.440 --> 1:00:26.960 and sag AFTRA, this is going to change entertainment and 1:00:27.040 --> 1:00:32.720 television in many ways. Well, first off, do you believe 1:00:32.800 --> 1:00:35.560 the strike should be happening? Yes? 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:41.320 And no. I yes because frankly, they're really legitimate issues 1:00:41.920 --> 1:00:47.400 and I really feel for the artist community. But no, 1:00:47.680 --> 1:00:50.760 because it's look, at this moment, it's kind of the 1:00:50.800 --> 1:00:54.520 only mechanism to try to force some sort of change. 1:00:55.240 --> 1:01:00.919 But the landscape of the industry is changed beyond what 1:01:00.960 --> 1:01:03.160 the strike will be able to affect. So while I'd 1:01:03.200 --> 1:01:05.200 like to believe that on the other side of the strike, 1:01:05.920 --> 1:01:09.120 the foundations in place where like we've changed the industry 1:01:09.120 --> 1:01:11.680 for the better and gotten our think it's I've gotten 1:01:11.720 --> 1:01:14.280 divorced I remember my divorce lawyer saying at the time, like, 1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.160 no one wins, it's just how much are you willing 1:01:17.160 --> 1:01:20.120 to compromise, So there's not going to be a win. 1:01:20.360 --> 1:01:23.600 It will be a compromise all the way around. And look, 1:01:23.600 --> 1:01:27.040 the unfortunate thing is I've been asked, like even there's 1:01:27.080 --> 1:01:29.120 somebody from New York Times like begging me to come 1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:31.200 on their podcast and talk because I'm like a neutral 1:01:31.240 --> 1:01:34.880 person who understands all the issues here. And I've avoided 1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:37.440 it all because I will shoot my mouth off and 1:01:37.480 --> 1:01:41.040 regret it. But what happened here is that a bus 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:44.720 rolled into town called Netflix. That everybody got on that 1:01:44.800 --> 1:01:49.040 party bus, and everybody when they were firing money all 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:52.320 over the place and had this new model my last 1:01:52.320 --> 1:01:56.120 thing as a corporate eriotage, I always felt like, this 1:01:56.680 --> 1:02:01.840 is an unbelievable thing they're building, that's an incredible consumer experience, 1:02:01.880 --> 1:02:03.000 and don't you think this is going to be a 1:02:03.040 --> 1:02:05.720 problem for us? And all the powers that be were like, 1:02:05.960 --> 1:02:08.200 they don't They're gonna go out of business, and they 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:11.400 kept selling all of our stuff over there. But look, 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:13.800 I also felt like the artist got on that party bus. 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:16.680 The irony part of the writers. You know the series 1:02:16.720 --> 1:02:20.400 writers issues right now is it's only ten episodes. You know, 1:02:20.760 --> 1:02:23.080 they don't they don't have big grill bust writers rooms. 1:02:23.560 --> 1:02:25.480 I mean I used to talk to writers who are like, 1:02:25.520 --> 1:02:27.800 why would I come do your network show for twenty two? 1:02:27.840 --> 1:02:30.280 I only have to do ten? At Netflix? This is great. 1:02:31.520 --> 1:02:34.120 You know, they were ordering at like a six to 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:37.160 one ratio from what so everybody was taking the money 1:02:37.200 --> 1:02:40.440 and having a great old time with Netflix. And Netflix 1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:43.640 uberized the business, you know, they turned it upside down 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:47.400 for better and worse. And the studios they were on 1:02:47.440 --> 1:02:51.040 the party bus because they were selling We were selling 1:02:51.120 --> 1:02:56.000 them all of our stuff really arrogantly misjudging the impact 1:02:56.000 --> 1:02:59.560 it was going to have, not really getting out ahead 1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:01.680 of like what do we have to do? Should we 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:04.000 take this thing seriously? What should we do? We just 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:07.480 thought we could somehow wait it out or wait till 1:03:07.480 --> 1:03:10.360 they die, And yet we were fueling them with our 1:03:10.760 --> 1:03:15.560 stuff by giving them our shows. And the studio leadership 1:03:15.760 --> 1:03:18.200 did almost the worst thing. You know, I said to 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:20.840 someone the other day, like, let's stick with this somehow. 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:24.040 Traffic analogy, like if you're going to go through a 1:03:24.120 --> 1:03:27.320 yellow light, you want to kind of go fast enough 1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:30.160 to go through safely through that yellow light before it 1:03:30.160 --> 1:03:33.000 turns red. The worst thing to do is to slow 1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:36.040 down and go slow and then gun it and then 1:03:36.080 --> 1:03:38.120 go through a red light, which is sort of what 1:03:38.160 --> 1:03:42.000 the studios did with streaming. They waited and let this 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:45.680 thing begin to seriously erode and you could see where 1:03:45.680 --> 1:03:49.520 it was going to erode their business, and then lurched 1:03:49.640 --> 1:03:54.240 into it, further accelerating their problems. And so what we 1:03:54.360 --> 1:03:58.440 have now is a business where the legacy companies have 1:03:59.280 --> 1:04:02.680 underlying issues. Bob Eiger came out a few weeks ago 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:04.600 and said, these guys don't get it. I mean, it 1:04:04.680 --> 1:04:06.720 wasn't a great look for Bob it certainly, I'm sure 1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:10.240 a moment he regrets having doing it with the Billionaire's 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:13.520 conference behind him, really a bad look. What he's not 1:04:13.600 --> 1:04:17.000 wrong about, though, is that these this strike is not 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:21.160 striking against the business we just talked about, this monopolistic 1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:25.600 business that was born almost one hundred years ago that 1:04:25.720 --> 1:04:29.840 we actually got to participate form, Bryan. It's now a 1:04:29.960 --> 1:04:36.560 stressed business that is stretched where the legacy players, the WarnerMedia, Discoveries, NBCUS, 1:04:37.000 --> 1:04:40.560 Paramount who yesterday sold Simon and Schuster and is they're 1:04:40.560 --> 1:04:42.560 gonna start, They're gonna have to strip down the pieces 1:04:42.560 --> 1:04:46.240 of these companies. They're not going to come rocketing back 1:04:46.280 --> 1:04:49.080 in business as usual. And for the most part, the 1:04:49.120 --> 1:04:52.960 digital players are not in our business as we knew it. 1:04:53.000 --> 1:04:57.080 I mean, Amazon, does you know, I'm Apple's doing in 1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:00.240 some really cool shows right now. Last I checked. That's 1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:02.920 not their core business. They sell these things and they 1:05:03.040 --> 1:05:06.920 make trillions of dollars. I mean, they're they're highly profitable 1:05:07.000 --> 1:05:11.720 doing that. So the power basis shifted, how the business 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:15.600 work is shifting. And when the actors who are robbed 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:20.640 of their residual payments, which was harder thing that when 1:05:20.640 --> 1:05:23.880 you got a good job that could pay your rent 1:05:23.920 --> 1:05:27.040 for the rest of your life. That I feel for 1:05:27.120 --> 1:05:31.080 the hard You know, I love actors, you know, because 1:05:31.520 --> 1:05:35.400 I mean it's such a beautiful thing, and actors are 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:37.720 wonderfully naive in terms of like I just want to 1:05:37.720 --> 1:05:40.120 do the work and then like, yeah, I'm okay with it, 1:05:40.160 --> 1:05:42.400 but just like, let me have my let me have 1:05:42.480 --> 1:05:45.880 my checks that come for that work I did. And 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:49.400 now they get checks for like thirty five cents. But 1:05:49.520 --> 1:05:52.600 in order to report that you have to have transparency 1:05:52.720 --> 1:05:56.200 on the actual usage of the service, which Netflix started 1:05:56.200 --> 1:05:59.440 the game by never reporting any of that, right, and 1:05:59.480 --> 1:06:03.280 they still don't. And unless there becomes more transparency, you're 1:06:03.320 --> 1:06:05.840 not going to really be able to measure. So it 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:07.840 was imperfect. But we used to have a thing called 1:06:08.000 --> 1:06:12.080 rating and in the box and box office, which were 1:06:12.200 --> 1:06:17.240 measurements of success. Right, those don't exist. So my point 1:06:17.320 --> 1:06:21.720 is it's a much more complicated tapestry. The issues are legit, 1:06:22.480 --> 1:06:26.120 but this strike mechanism. Look, do I think everyone should 1:06:26.160 --> 1:06:29.120 have held hands and together gone, listen, guys, we're all 1:06:29.120 --> 1:06:32.240 in this together with different agendas. But this business, we 1:06:32.320 --> 1:06:35.080 got to figure out a different path forward. Yeah, but 1:06:35.160 --> 1:06:37.400 they didn't, you know, they let it get to the 1:06:37.440 --> 1:06:40.800 eleventh hour and then a strike happens. So I think 1:06:40.840 --> 1:06:44.280 the double strike, I think the actors really will together 1:06:44.560 --> 1:06:48.600 force some step forward. But I'd love to say it's 1:06:49.000 --> 1:06:50.520 all going to be fixed. It's not going to be. 1:06:50.600 --> 1:06:54.360 Unfortunately, Well, as someone said to me, it's been fifty 1:06:54.440 --> 1:06:59.640 years since the last actors strike. Ronald Reagan was SAG 1:06:59.680 --> 1:07:03.240 president at the time, and the issues were much the 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:06.160 same as it has been explained to me, which is 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:10.800 actors sitting around when shows were rerun and saying, why 1:07:11.240 --> 1:07:14.040 people are still enjoying our work? Why are we not 1:07:14.120 --> 1:07:17.520 getting money for that? Yes, and I mean there's other issues, 1:07:17.560 --> 1:07:21.720 and I don't mean to belittle all of them, but 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:25.440 that there was a negotiated rate that at least everyone 1:07:25.560 --> 1:07:30.920 could except for work that now it doesn't exist. It's interesting, 1:07:31.160 --> 1:07:35.120 it does feel like which I think has been the problem, 1:07:35.240 --> 1:07:38.240 a little bit like trying to put a pin on 1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:43.920 something that keeps moving. That the way things are consumed, 1:07:44.000 --> 1:07:49.320 the way monetization formula could be made. It's all shifting 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:50.160 so quickly. 1:07:50.600 --> 1:07:54.280 Yes, but also let's not if you really even just 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:58.360 back up even further in the Ronald Reagan era, even 1:07:58.440 --> 1:08:02.080 up until the Office Area era, where the writing you know, 1:08:02.120 --> 1:08:05.400 as we remember The Office was, if not the first show, 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:08.520 one of the very early shows onto the iPod. You know, 1:08:08.680 --> 1:08:11.480 when all of a sudden there's a video that could 1:08:11.560 --> 1:08:16.320 be downloaded and streamed legitimately. So let's just use from that, 1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:21.519 you know, the beginning filmed entertainment, whether it was at 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:25.440 the box office or on your television, was the pinnacle 1:08:26.200 --> 1:08:31.920 of cultural consumption. Like that was what the kids talked about. 1:08:32.120 --> 1:08:33.960 That was the write of pasth you went to the 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:37.080 movies with your friends, you sat around the television and 1:08:37.240 --> 1:08:40.280 tuned in at eight o'clock at night. Everybody bought Michael 1:08:40.360 --> 1:08:44.920 Jackson's thriller. It was a very almost sort of monopolistic 1:08:45.000 --> 1:08:49.040 kind of environment. The environment today between the gaming world 1:08:49.120 --> 1:08:52.639 and the interactive and all the TikTok and everything pressing 1:08:52.680 --> 1:08:56.360 in from the sides that is highly demanding of your time, 1:08:57.200 --> 1:09:00.640 and then the streaming business that has then upended the 1:09:00.640 --> 1:09:03.400 middle of it. You have something that is a much 1:09:03.439 --> 1:09:07.559 more complicated landscape to manage. So it's true the issues 1:09:07.600 --> 1:09:10.800 are still the same, and at the time, I'm sure 1:09:10.800 --> 1:09:13.600 they had really rational reasons why they weren't. You know, 1:09:13.680 --> 1:09:16.800 you'd be beginning going back to the earlier artist employees 1:09:17.560 --> 1:09:20.080 when well, you worked for us, you were contract players, 1:09:20.120 --> 1:09:22.160 and you did what we did. So then it get no, 1:09:22.479 --> 1:09:24.920 you know what, we're not your employees. We need to 1:09:24.960 --> 1:09:29.320 be paid as our independent contractors of sorts with real rights, 1:09:29.360 --> 1:09:33.120 which is what the unionization helped bring about. They are 1:09:33.240 --> 1:09:37.240 the same fundamental issues, but unfortunately now the ability to 1:09:37.800 --> 1:09:40.920 is not. It's not the five families at the top 1:09:40.960 --> 1:09:43.360 that just say all right, once I waived this wand 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:47.759 it just is fixed. They're public companies under tremendous stress 1:09:47.920 --> 1:09:51.360 that their growth engine is highly compromised. That's not clear 1:09:51.400 --> 1:09:56.160 what's really driving these companies forward. They're very big, probably 1:09:56.240 --> 1:09:59.080 in some regards need to be stripped down and recombined 1:09:59.080 --> 1:10:03.200 and probably will, and so this makes these things much 1:10:03.280 --> 1:10:09.400 more complicated, unfortunately, and the streaming business again a large degree. 1:10:09.439 --> 1:10:11.280 They're talking about the fact that you know, I'm in 1:10:11.400 --> 1:10:14.519 I read an article recently about Orange is the New 1:10:14.560 --> 1:10:18.519 Black cast on how early days of Netflix, they had 1:10:18.520 --> 1:10:21.360 this international hit and the actors would go places and 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:25.400 be mobbed, but then they literally would get like checks 1:10:25.439 --> 1:10:27.920 for dollar ninety five and they're like, wait a minute, 1:10:27.960 --> 1:10:30.240 I thought when you had a hit, you were paid 1:10:30.880 --> 1:10:35.080 at least enough to pay your rent. And that's heartbreaking. 1:10:35.439 --> 1:10:39.200 But it does show that Netflix created a different model, 1:10:39.880 --> 1:10:43.880 and they don't report still to this day. Here's how 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:48.240 many actual people used and saw your thing. So maybe 1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:52.320 there is a way to create these tiers. But the 1:10:52.360 --> 1:10:55.880 business is betwixt and between this new player that sort 1:10:55.920 --> 1:10:58.519 of took over and then the older players that tried 1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:01.360 to transition but just have a lot of they're not 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:02.840 they're not really one and the same. 1:11:03.800 --> 1:11:09.559 Yeah, it's very complicated. We talk a lot about the 1:11:09.600 --> 1:11:12.800 success of the office and after we were done, and 1:11:13.439 --> 1:11:16.400 here's the thing that sticks with me. You have people 1:11:16.720 --> 1:11:20.800 who made a lot of money, networks that made a 1:11:20.800 --> 1:11:23.680 lot of money off of the office, and then syndication 1:11:23.800 --> 1:11:27.599 deals that happened both with Turner and with some small 1:11:27.800 --> 1:11:34.120 network syndication and NBC Universal decides seven years after the 1:11:34.160 --> 1:11:37.320 office is done and all the money that has been 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:40.880 earned and paid and all of that, that it's worth 1:11:41.120 --> 1:11:46.080 five hundred and sixty five million dollars to reacquire the office. 1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:52.000 It's hard to think that they're not making money. 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:57.080 On that. Oh yes, I mean that that is a 1:11:57.200 --> 1:12:00.479 highly highly, highly profitable They don't. They don't spend that 1:12:00.600 --> 1:12:03.160 kind of money for something that is not an earner, 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:04.600 you know, yes. 1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:09.559 Right, And so where's how does that trickle down? Like 1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:12.479 if you have to me an acknowledgment that there's a 1:12:12.560 --> 1:12:15.760 valuable property and it's not just the office, obviously, it's 1:12:15.800 --> 1:12:20.040 just more personal for me. I hope she wouldn't be 1:12:20.160 --> 1:12:22.160 upset that I shared this, But Jenni Fisher at one 1:12:22.200 --> 1:12:24.599 point said, you know what's crazy, And this was when 1:12:24.600 --> 1:12:27.800 that figure was out there all the time. Is that 1:12:28.240 --> 1:12:32.639 you know, a person reads that and thinks, oh, look 1:12:32.640 --> 1:12:36.120 how much money the actors got, like look look how 1:12:36.200 --> 1:12:40.960 good they're doing. They are they are rich, Yet the 1:12:41.000 --> 1:12:45.280 formula remains remains unchanged, and that that to me is 1:12:45.360 --> 1:12:46.200 just confusing. 1:12:47.160 --> 1:12:50.840 You know. That is the age old thing like this 1:12:50.920 --> 1:12:52.240 is we could talk about this for an hour in 1:12:52.240 --> 1:12:54.960 and of itself, but the you know, the studio accounting 1:12:55.040 --> 1:12:58.280 which has always been the thing, even going back to 1:12:58.360 --> 1:13:02.600 the heyday of Hollywood, crazy people with different pieces of 1:13:02.640 --> 1:13:06.960 ownership and underlying financing and weird structures that when it 1:13:07.000 --> 1:13:09.160 would go through the accounting system, it was always an 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:11.879 old joke of like, oh we did it, and amazing, 1:13:12.040 --> 1:13:15.800 you're you're still losing money and because of the. 1:13:15.960 --> 1:13:17.960 Right right how many back end deals? 1:13:18.000 --> 1:13:21.559 Actually that does go back, you know, decades and decades 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:24.439 and decades because a lot of cost would get loaded 1:13:24.439 --> 1:13:27.599 in and they you know, had acquire big studio lots 1:13:27.600 --> 1:13:30.880 and things that were getting loaded into that. And you know, 1:13:31.120 --> 1:13:33.320 just as you do in your own personal accounting, where 1:13:33.360 --> 1:13:35.160 if you've made some money you try to have right 1:13:35.240 --> 1:13:37.720 offs and like oh, okay, well I didn't really make 1:13:37.960 --> 1:13:40.439 one hundred grand on that I only made twenty because 1:13:40.479 --> 1:13:43.000 look at all these costs. So studios have always done 1:13:43.040 --> 1:13:47.280 the same thing, and sadly it has taken lawsuits, usually 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:50.479 for being challenged to go in, or audits if they're 1:13:50.520 --> 1:13:52.840 not as public, to go in and say, you know what, 1:13:52.880 --> 1:13:55.839 this doesn't feel right. We're banding together. We got lawyers 1:13:55.840 --> 1:13:57.800 and accountants and we're going to go in and find 1:13:58.120 --> 1:14:00.559 And then there was either some giant settlement or a 1:14:00.640 --> 1:14:05.479 case where finally things would be even doubt And so yeah, 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:09.240 those dynamics that have been around for too long, and 1:14:09.320 --> 1:14:13.960 yet there still was the irony is even the office 1:14:14.080 --> 1:14:16.439 arguably one of the last of the good ones from 1:14:16.479 --> 1:14:20.040 the old days quote unquote, and even that, you can 1:14:20.240 --> 1:14:23.200 you can feel your own you know, you're you're you're 1:14:23.240 --> 1:14:26.000 an upbeat guy, like you're what you've had your moment. 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:28.519 You're like, wow, I really thought that would have had 1:14:28.560 --> 1:14:31.920 a little more trickle down here. Okay, but now you 1:14:32.000 --> 1:14:34.760 look forward to guys who are doing Look, there is 1:14:34.800 --> 1:14:38.840 no streaming equivalent because there is no multi generational two 1:14:38.920 --> 1:14:42.800 hundred episode plus, there is no syndication. It's just a 1:14:42.880 --> 1:14:47.280 one time air on a streamer that has a moment 1:14:47.320 --> 1:14:49.640 and then drops to the bottom of an algorithm, So 1:14:49.800 --> 1:14:52.800 there's not even even if the precedents were there, Like 1:14:53.320 --> 1:14:56.080 the whole system that could create the trickle down is 1:14:56.120 --> 1:14:59.600 broken down, and that's it in a nutshell where I 1:14:59.760 --> 1:15:03.439 do believe it will ultimately get reconstituted, and I think, 1:15:04.439 --> 1:15:06.519 to sort of cut to the bottom line, this strike 1:15:06.560 --> 1:15:09.960 will be a brick in the wall of rebuilding a 1:15:10.000 --> 1:15:13.719 new system on the other side, which will have different players, 1:15:14.240 --> 1:15:20.080 because ultimately, I also don't really understand myself how once 1:15:20.120 --> 1:15:23.920 you have something that has been a success at the top, 1:15:24.720 --> 1:15:27.559 whether if you had a hit movie or a hit show, 1:15:28.600 --> 1:15:31.639 you know it would live on where it would be. Oh, 1:15:31.680 --> 1:15:34.360 you could see it in an airplane, you could watch 1:15:34.400 --> 1:15:36.680 it on your before you eat dinner at night on 1:15:36.720 --> 1:15:40.320 your local channel. You could sell it overseas and people 1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:43.720 in other countries would see it. Now, once that thing 1:15:43.800 --> 1:15:46.520 is cycled through, it's at the bottom of the algorithm, 1:15:47.240 --> 1:15:50.879 not only not being seen, but not even expressing itself. 1:15:51.479 --> 1:15:53.439 You know, the real hits were rides at a theme 1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:57.040 park and had T shirts made and all these other 1:15:57.120 --> 1:16:00.599 revenue streams. I don't understand a one app your business 1:16:00.640 --> 1:16:04.040 where everything just has one moment and and it's disposable 1:16:04.479 --> 1:16:08.200 because that is still something that costs billions and billions 1:16:08.240 --> 1:16:12.920 of dollars to produce. So historically the ones that you know, 1:16:13.240 --> 1:16:15.479 the hits, used to pay for all of the failure, 1:16:16.000 --> 1:16:18.280 and it's I'm not saying it's justified, but it is 1:16:18.320 --> 1:16:20.120 one of the reasons why they always claim they weren't 1:16:20.160 --> 1:16:23.439 making money because nine of the ten failed, so they 1:16:23.479 --> 1:16:25.160 had to pay with the one that worked, so they 1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:28.240 were like, we're not making money. But I only giving 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:32.480 this detail because the tapestry now of the business itself 1:16:33.479 --> 1:16:36.120 is different and it's going to be a transition that 1:16:36.240 --> 1:16:39.040 is just not it's still in that transition and it's 1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:41.480 going to take years for that to kind of reconstitute. 1:16:42.000 --> 1:16:43.760 But this will be a brick in the wall, and 1:16:43.800 --> 1:16:46.720 that in a sense, it's good that both unions went out, 1:16:46.760 --> 1:16:48.679 Otherwise nothing would. 1:16:48.560 --> 1:16:53.559 Happen, right Kevin, you're the best. You stayed way longer 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:54.519 than Oh my god, I. 1:16:54.520 --> 1:16:57.000 Didn't even realize we were blown through it. Well hopefully, no, 1:16:57.240 --> 1:16:59.880 hopefully hung with it. 1:17:00.240 --> 1:17:03.960 Yes you are. You are such a delight one of 1:17:04.000 --> 1:17:09.000 my favorite people ever, and I wish you all the 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:12.120 best success and for this to resolve itself in some 1:17:12.240 --> 1:17:16.000 way soon so everyone can get back to making making 1:17:16.040 --> 1:17:16.800 great television. 1:17:17.080 --> 1:17:20.320 Yes, it will. I mean there are some quiet talks 1:17:20.360 --> 1:17:21.760 going on now. I mean, I don't know. I think 1:17:21.800 --> 1:17:25.639 we're looking at the October is my gut. But maybe sooner, hopefully. 1:17:26.000 --> 1:17:28.639 And dude, there's a lot of fun. I can't believe 1:17:28.640 --> 1:17:31.920 we blew through so long. You're you're so the easiest 1:17:31.920 --> 1:17:33.320 guy in the world to talk to, you, great at 1:17:33.360 --> 1:17:35.640 what you do, and hitting you on a date for 1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:38.639 some mutually bad golf very quickly. 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:41.760 All right, Okay, I love it, Kevin, Thank you so much. 1:17:41.960 --> 1:17:57.160 See you, buddy, Kevin, thank you so much for joining 1:17:57.200 --> 1:18:01.360 me today. Yes, on golf soon. But more importantly, I 1:18:01.600 --> 1:18:07.680 appreciate your perspective on the current state of entertainment. I 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:11.400 hope that our reps can have conversations that are as 1:18:11.520 --> 1:18:16.080 honest and enlightening as the one we just had. Listeners. 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:18.599 I'm going to be back next week as well as 1:18:18.600 --> 1:18:21.719 I always am. If you need something to do while 1:18:21.760 --> 1:18:25.639 you wait, you can follow rate review this podcast, or 1:18:26.000 --> 1:18:27.880 if you're too busy for all that, just tune in 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:40.240 next week. Either way, have a great one off the 1:18:40.240 --> 1:18:44.160 beat is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, 1:18:44.400 --> 1:18:48.400 alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is 1:18:48.479 --> 1:18:52.519 Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris and 1:18:52.560 --> 1:18:57.000 Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and 1:18:57.080 --> 1:19:01.479 our intern is Thomas Olsen. Theme song Bubble and Squeak 1:19:01.840 --> 1:19:04.800 performed by the One and Only Creed Breath