1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: I will say for me, anything I've ever been involved 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: in I thought was good. I've never said the words 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: this is a hit. You know, you look at it 4 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: and you go, this is first like this is a thing. 5 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: There's something here, and if we keep doing this, it's 6 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: going to be good, and if we get a little lucky, 7 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: it actually will be something significant. And that's just the 8 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: way I've always looked at it. I've never been surprised, like, 9 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: oh my god, I had no idea that was good. 10 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: But I've certainly been surprised on the downside times. But 11 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: I've definitely been surprised when finally not pleasantly, like oh 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: my god, they're catching on to what we've known for 13 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: a while. Kevin Riley was a president OFBC Entertainment through 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: the entire first chapter of the Office, from when the 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: show was pitched, all the way up through the development 16 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: and the first couple of seasons of the show, the 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: modest and humble beginnings of a tremendous television show. 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: Hello, everybody, so glad that you could join me today 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: for this very special episode of Off the Beat. I 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 2: am but your humble host Brian Baumgartner. Today we have 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 2: a fascinating guest. I know you're gonna love it. Kevin 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: Riley joins the program once again. For those of you 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 2: who don't know, Kevin is a goliath in the television world, 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: a legend who makes television work from the inside out. 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: More on that in a bit. It's hard to believe 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: that he started out as a production assistant, running coffee 27 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:45,279 Speaker 2: orders and making copies for music videos, and he worked 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: his way all the way up to being network president 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: at multiple networks. By the way, his resume looks like 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: alphabet soup. That's a business term. He's worked for just 31 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: about every television acronym there is, NBC, FX, TNT, TBS, HBO, Fox, 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: Turner Media, and many many more. He's advocated for some 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: of your favorite shows, including The Office, which we have 34 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: talked to him about before, even when other execs wanted 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: to shut those shows down. And he has been a 36 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 2: visionary for television programming and streaming innovations for over thirty years. 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: That's right, Kevin has his hand in so many shows, 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: including The Sopranos, The Shield, Nip Tuck, Thirty Rock, The Office, 39 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: and so many more. I'm excited for you to hear 40 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: his story, his career path, and also his take on 41 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: the writers an actors strike that's going on right now. 42 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: Of course I stand with my guild, but I know 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: for a fact that unless both sides talk to and 44 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: understand each other, we're not going to get anywhere. So 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: it's really special and important to me that Kevin and 46 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: I got to have this conversation at this particular point 47 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: in time. I learned a lot, and I think you 48 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: will too. So how listen. Here he is my old 49 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: and dear friend, Kevin Riley. 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 3: Bubble and squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak. I know, 51 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 3: bubble and squeak. I cook get every month, lift over 52 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: from the. 53 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 4: Ninetyfore, what's up, Kevin? 54 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: There's the man. How's it going outstanding? Good to see you, buddy. 55 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: It's great to see you. We still haven't golfed. 56 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: I know I'm gonna We're gonna will very soon. 57 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: Yes, my golf game is in shambles right now. So 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: if perfect your perfect part, yeah exactly, you're uh yeah. 59 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: If if you like to play for money, now's a 60 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: good time to get me. How well, I would say, 61 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: how's it going? 62 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: I can't believe it's been three years since. Uh, that's 63 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: a little scary. 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: Actually, I know. Well, time stops during COVID for sure. 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: Oh wow, it was Oh that was like the timing. Yeah, 66 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: that was the timing. You know. I don't have one 67 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: of those brains that can do chronology, you know how 68 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: some people can just go, oh and in two thousand 69 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: and eight, I did this and do that. I can't 70 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: do that to begin with. But once you threw COVID 71 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: into the mix I have, I'm like, wheels off. People go, hey, 72 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: when did you start that thing? I go, I can't 73 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: do it. 74 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: I know, I was just I was just doing it myself. 75 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: Think anytime it's like, you know, oh I went somewhere, 76 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: I was in a city, I did this thing. How 77 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: long ago was that? Oh that was like two years ago. Oh, 78 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: in the middle of COVID. No, I guess it was 79 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: seven years ago. That's that's that's what happens. But yeah, 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: it's been three years. We had such a great conversation, 81 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 2: but you know, we were really focused on the office 82 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: during that time. And you have such an interesting it's crazy, like, 83 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 2: of all of my shows, like my favorite shows since 84 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: two thousand, almost all of them you had your you 85 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: had you were involved in one way or the other, 86 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: and truly like change, the face of television changed in 87 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 2: some ways, how people consumed. We'll talk a little bit 88 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: about that during your time in blocks or used to consume. Yeah, well, 89 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: but even so, you know how people consume and and 90 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: and what they were consuming on different networks. So I'm 91 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 2: I'm really excited to talk to you and then talk 92 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: a little bit about what's going on in the industry 93 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: right now. But going back for you, you grew up in 94 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 2: Long Island, right in New York. Were you a New 95 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: York kid? Like, were you taking advantage of this city? 96 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, but you know when you you know, when 97 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: you grow up outside New York City, if you're not 98 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: in New York City, there's just a hard line differentiator 99 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: between a city kid and a Long Island kid, you know. 100 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: I mean, especially if you're a condescending New York kid, 101 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: You're like, you're from where you know? So yeah, it 102 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: was twenty minutes without traffic, two hours with traffic, So no, 103 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: I kind of would go into the city. I mean, 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: I had I had my best friend growing up as 105 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: his father managed the New York Athletic Club, which was 106 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: like a just an institution, and he was a kid 107 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: who was just like he was the fourth child, and 108 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: at that point the parents were like, you know, wheels off. 109 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: They were great family, but he just got so I 110 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: just I would go in with him and we would 111 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: have these crazy adventures where we'd ended up being extras 112 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: in a movie. We'd go under the stanchion at a 113 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: crime scene. I mean, we had some crazy adventures in 114 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: New York City, but no, I was not a city, right. 115 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: What were your favorite television shows as a kid. What 116 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: do you remember watching? 117 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: Oh shit, I had a wild swath of things. I 118 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: mean when I was a little kid, lost in space somehow, 119 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: I just like I was in syndication. I mean, I 120 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: hate to say it, but I'm so fucking old that 121 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: it was like the still the three channel universe. And 122 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: I would just sit there, changing the channel and staring 123 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:22,559 Speaker 1: at this before dinner. 124 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: Every night. 125 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: My mother would be like. 126 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: Turn that thing off, right right? 127 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: But I like watch you know, I watched I Love 128 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: Lucy reruns with my mother, you know, I mean I 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: got laugh in. I got to stay up and watch 130 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: Goldie Hawn in a bikini, and I was like, Wow, 131 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: this this thing is cool. I didn't even like something 132 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: there's something going on with this show. Like generationally, that 133 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: was a whole different kind of thing. And then when 134 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 1: I got into sort of the Monty Python kind of age, 135 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: I just found those guys were seminal influence to me. 136 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: Did you watch Saturday Night Live as a kid? 137 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: Yes, And that was probably one of the coolest things 138 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: when I finally when I I went back to be 139 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: the president of NBC, and I became friends with Lauren 140 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: and I still am and like an actual friend of Lauren's. 141 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: We kind of bonded over thirty Rock in particular, which 142 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: was you know, Tina Fey was really one of Lauren's favorites, 143 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: and she was not only the head writer, but you know, 144 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: it became a really significant thing. So when I actually 145 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: got to sit in the booth with Louren down in 146 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: studio at eight h and I was like, man, if 147 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: you told me when I was a kid, because I was, look, 148 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: I was right at that age where it was just 149 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: a groundbreaking thing. And I would have to remember running 150 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: home to watch Saturday Live at eleven thirty, you know, 151 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: at just that prime age of whatever the hell I 152 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: was in my teens, and I was like, this is it? 153 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: So sort of on some level. Those were kind of 154 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: where I decided I have no idea what this is. 155 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: I don't know even know how you get into that business. 156 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: I don't have a clue. But that's I really knew 157 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: back then that's what I wanted to do somehow. 158 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: You wanted to be involved in television. 159 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: Just entertainment, Yeah, I mean television, but know it was 160 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: just like I wanted, I want in on whatever that is. 161 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: And I came out to California to visit Disneyland with 162 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: my parents when I was in sixth grade, and I 163 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: was like, I guess this is where they make movies 164 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: and things, and there's palm trees here. I just was like, 165 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: note to self, I'm doing this and coming here and 166 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: I it was a long, windy, twisty road and I 167 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: didn't and I was clueless on that road, but I 168 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: figured it out. 169 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: It's funny because similar and then for me it really 170 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: happened later. But you know, when I was traveling around 171 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: the country doing theater, I remember visiting for the and 172 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: I had, you know, a friend of a friend who 173 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: was friends with Callista Flockhart, and I got invited to 174 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: come out for a Midsummer Night's dream. I guess was 175 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: the movie Calista Flockhart was. And I came out and 176 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: I was staying near Westwood, and there was this thing 177 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: called Coffee Bean where everyone sat outside so exotic in 178 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 2: the sun. Yeah, drank freezy drinks and fade donald when 179 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: you learned. 180 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: Then that in La somehow there's a lot of people 181 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: that seem to have no cares in the world, and 182 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: they're sitting around in the middle of the day drinking coffee. 183 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: They're sing around. 184 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: I don't know who these people are, but. 185 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: You know, well, I thought it would just happened once 186 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: you got there. Yeah, and yeah, it was like exactly, like, 187 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: no to self, I don't need to be freezing myself 188 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: in Minnesota. Yeah for that much longer. Let's move out here. Yeah, 189 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: you went to Cornell, I did. 190 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: Speaking of freezing your ass off. 191 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you were at Cornell, were you thinking 192 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,239 Speaker 2: about being involved in entertainment. 193 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: Yes, I still had no clue what it was. I mean, look, 194 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: I became a communications major thinking that was somehow gonna impact. 195 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: I took classes. I took screenwriting classes at if A College, 196 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: which actually had sort of a legit program, And uh, 197 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: I think about it now because it's pre Google, you know. 198 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know how anybody figured out anything. 199 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it does make you be crafty, but you'd 200 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: have to go get a few of the books that 201 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: were written, or you'd maybe some magazines would be stuff. 202 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: So I'm gleaning whatever I could. But the one couple 203 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: things I did well, which is I just I had 204 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure. I mean, everyone I grew up 205 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: with ended up in somehow Wall Street, if you will, 206 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: whether they were a trader or if they had bigger brains, 207 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: they became an investment banker. And everybody kind of did that. 208 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: And a lot of guys that you graduated had job 209 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,599 Speaker 1: offers and their acceptance letters on the wall. I didn't. 210 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: I I tended bar. I was like, I better go 211 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: pay the bills because my father, who did not support 212 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: this career choice to begin with, was definitely not going 213 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: to support it and support me. So I just tended bar. 214 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: That's what I went to do. Well. I went to 215 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: some programs at NYU and just ran around New York 216 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: City from one my parents house in Long Island, trying 217 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: to figure out who would give me a break. 218 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: You talked about taking a screenwriting class. Did you ever 219 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: see yourself as a writer or as an actor. 220 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: Yes, I didn't really understand. I just knew I loved 221 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: it all, and there were moments of kind of having 222 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: my toe in each kind of pond a little bit, 223 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: you know. Acting I moved away from pretty quickly because 224 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: I just was like, I had actor friends. I loved it, 225 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: but I was like, boy, I don't I don't think 226 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: I can do this, you know, the job of being 227 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: the actor, you know, not the craft, the job part 228 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: of it. I just like, man, I just don't think 229 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: I have that kind of personality. And it scared me. 230 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: It probably scared me too much, you know, because my 231 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: parents just were not Look there were great people, they 232 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: just didn't get that at all. And the writing I 233 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: had more discipline on. But then I kind of went 234 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: the same route. I was like, man, I just spent 235 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: two and a half years years in New York. I 236 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: don't think I ever slept. I was on the I 237 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: was carrying coffee on the sets of commercials, music videos. 238 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: I did like one hundred and fifty of them. I 239 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: mean literally didn't sleep. There were times I would get 240 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: home at two in the morning and be like, Okay, 241 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: I need to be back on set at five, I've 242 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: got to catch the train. I would set a clock 243 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: and literally put it on my chest and sleep for 244 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: forty five minutes and wake up and throw coffee in 245 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,599 Speaker 1: my face and go back to work. So it was 246 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: all kind of a blur. But I did some writing, 247 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: but I was by the time I got to California, 248 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: where I just packed my car and winged it and 249 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: drove across country with no month, like literally eight hundred 250 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: dollars to my name, which I spent very quickly. I 251 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: just think I didn't have the guts, frankly, to say, 252 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to be a writer. I was like, 253 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: I'll I need something that's gonna if I get a job, 254 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: will pay me in the short run. And I had 255 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: regret about that for a number of years, where I 256 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: kept beating myself up for being a sellout, you know. 257 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: And then I finally was like, well, if there's then 258 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: go right, you know. And then I was like, gave that. 259 00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: I was like, move on. 260 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: I did not know you drove. You just packed up 261 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: the car and went to LA I know that fairly quickly, right. 262 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 2: You ended up at Universal As on the public. 263 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: Side, And when I was driving across country. I drove 264 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: the southern route and I stayed with some a bunch 265 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: of college friends along the way and in Atlanta, actually, 266 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: I stayed with a guy who was in the hotel 267 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: business and his roommate was in the hotel business, and 268 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: he gave me a name of a guy. He's like, look, 269 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what this guy does if 270 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: he's at Universal Pictures, and he puts actors in my hotel, 271 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: in our hotel when he comes to town. He's a 272 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: nice guy. And then I like him, you should you know, 273 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: here's his name. And I was like, oh, I have contacts, 274 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, I know Flockharts, second friends, Nanny, and I'm 275 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: going to you know, yeah, exactly, so my contacts I 276 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: like through that thing in my suitcase. And when I 277 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: got to LA and all the people who said call 278 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: me when you get here didn't return my phone calls, 279 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: and I was in a cold panic and like seriously 280 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: running out of money, and then out of money, I 281 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: like dug out that number and I called this guy Universal, 282 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: who was a nice guy, and I had a meeting. 283 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: He didn't hire me, but a few months later, when 284 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: I was really starting a panic out of the Blue. 285 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: He just called me up and just was like, hey, 286 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're doing, but we got this job. 287 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: He was in marketing, and I didn't ever really want 288 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: to be in marketing, but he said, look, it's in 289 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: publicity and promotion on you kind of a you know, 290 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: number two person on the West Coast overseeing that part 291 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: of it for us in the in the you know, 292 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: feature film business, you know, would you be interested? And 293 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, let me just check with 294 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: my people. Sure, yeah, I think I could squeeze that in. 295 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: So that was just like a huge breakout of the blue, 296 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: which was really me driving stopping in Atlanta to go 297 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: to Hooters with my idiot friend from Cornell and in Atlanta. 298 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: So that's how I got it. 299 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: Wow. 300 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: And then one year later, I mean I did that. 301 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: I really was. It was a very interesting experience, but like, yeah, 302 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to be in marketing. I want to 303 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: be in the creative ent. And then I had just, 304 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: through a bunch of weird connections, kind of wangled my 305 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: way into a dialogue at NBC. And I remember I was, 306 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, I was young at that time. I was 307 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: still going out at night during midweek and I remember 308 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: we'd have these long, boring meetings, like three hour staff meetings, 309 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: and I kept falling asleep in them. And one day 310 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: the head of the department of the marketing department like 311 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: threw a ball of paper at me while I was asleep, 312 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: and I woke up and she goes after the meeting, 313 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: she goes, can I see you? And she said, look, 314 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: you're really bright, and I have no doubt that if 315 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: you stuck with this, you would run this department someday. 316 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: But if you don't get your head into it, I'm 317 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: going to fire you. And the problem was I was 318 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: interviewing crazily to get out of this job and then 319 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: kind of phoning it in and sort of lost interest 320 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: in it even though thank god I had it. And 321 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: literally two days later I got offered a job at NBC, 322 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: and I went in and just told her, like, you 323 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: know what, we're on the same page. I'm quitting. 324 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: So and that was that walking into NBC for the 325 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: first time. Yeah, was there a feeling like was it 326 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: like I've made it, mom? 327 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you just I think, like anything in life, 328 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: I mean, for me, those seminal moments when their actual happened, 329 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: even down to like having children, like you're just sort 330 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: of like somewhere between overwhelmed in the moment or just like, oh, 331 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: I guess I'm doing this now, you know, I'm right, 332 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: I guess this is happening. But then you do have 333 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: this moment, and quite often it would be to me 334 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: be you know, when you were busy during the day 335 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: or look I was, you know, half panicked. You're a 336 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: young person, You're slightly into your head. You can't believe 337 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: you even have this job, your busiest shit. A lot 338 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: of times it was like at the end of the day, 339 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: you know, one of the still things about la when 340 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: the sun's setting and it's just temperature's really nice. I'd 341 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: walk out and you're driving off the lot and you're like, huh. 342 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: You know, I remember watching like for me on the 343 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: NBC lot. It was usually guests leaving as I was 344 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: like driving off the lot, guests leaving from their taping 345 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: of the Tonight Show. So you know, Jay Leno would 346 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: do the Tonight Show. It's still Johnny Carson in those days, 347 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: and they you know, would tape from five to seven 348 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: or whatever it was, and when the guests you see 349 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: the limos and you sometimes you'd see them loading up 350 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: in their car and we're driving out together, and those 351 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: are the moments where I was like, cool, I guess 352 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: all right, I'm actually in the real deal here. 353 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It is. 354 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 2: There is that like evening time sun is going down, 355 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 2: like the air it does, it feels different, and if 356 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: you sort of transport yourself to your younger self thinking 357 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: about it, and there's like you know, and then you 358 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: get stuck in traffic on you know, yeah that's Burbank 359 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 2: Boulevard or whatever for an hour and. 360 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: A half, streaching halt. Literally, Oh, you're like. 361 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: But there there are those moments where you're like, oh, yeah, 362 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 2: this is what this is what I think I. 363 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: Have a memory of, specifically early on on my thing, 364 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: driving down Sunset Boulevard. I had put all of the 365 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: money I had on the East Coast saved up into 366 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: this used BMW with one hundred and ten thousand miles 367 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: on it, because I was like, I need a car 368 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: that's not going to I mean, even though it was 369 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: all those things were built like you know, they could 370 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: go forever if you took care of them, and it 371 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: was in such awesome shape, and this was the only 372 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: thing I had. I remember driving down Sunset Boulevard with 373 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: the Palm Tree silhouetted and going like, oh man, here 374 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: it is the Disneyland thing that I envisioned, you know, 375 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: still sort of alive and well, I guess. 376 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, So you get hired well by Brandon Tartakoff, first 377 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: manager of Creative Affairs, then the VP of Drama Development. 378 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 2: Talk to me a little bit about your relationship with Tartakoff. Close. 379 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: Good, Yeah, I mean this is a guy like I 380 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't know who would be listening 381 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: this out there, but it's some either. You know, this 382 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: was a guy at a time when guys who ultimately 383 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: held the button of like there were you know, three 384 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: doors to access the television world and then only maybe 385 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: four meaningful ways to act, you know, to truly access 386 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: the film world. So if you had one of those 387 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: chairs that kind of opened one of those doors, it 388 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: was a really influential position. And this guy, at a 389 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: very young age was thought of as a genius in television. 390 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: He had been promoted to the head of it when 391 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: he was a very young guy, and he was both 392 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: intimidating just by virtue of how great he was, but 393 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: I loved him. I mean, like he passed away at 394 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: a really young age. He had fought cancer a number 395 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: of times and eventually gave into it and in his forties, 396 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: I think, so it kind of gave him that James 397 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: Dean sort of status in the business. But he he 398 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: was just a witty guy who loved loved the medium. 399 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: He loved great TV. He loved cheesy, fun entertainment. I 400 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: remember one time I was on a plane and of 401 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: course he was sitting in first class and I went 402 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: past him, and I remember like he sent a little 403 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: like goofy note back to me. He had ripped something 404 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: out of Variety and made like a joke in the 405 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: column and had like twenty people pass it back to me. 406 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, holy shit, like this is like 407 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: my boss's boss boss is sending me back his gofy note. 408 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: And I love that about him. So it was a 409 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: cool experience, and you know, cut to it was his 410 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: actual There was times when I would sit in his 411 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: office on the couch, like the fifth one on the 412 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: Someone said to me early on when I was like, 413 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: how do you get into one of his jobs? He 414 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: was a producer, He said, look when I go into 415 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: pitch and I'm pitching tartak cough. There's like six other 416 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: people on the couch drinking evy on. I don't know 417 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: what they all do, but you want to be one 418 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: of those people. And so I was like the sixth 419 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: one down on the couch drinking Evyon. And I remember 420 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: being in his office and going, I don't know, maybe 421 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: someday I would do this, This would be cool to 422 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: do this. And when I finally did, many years later, 423 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: get that actual job in his actual office, that hadn't 424 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: really changed much at all. Even with the Bank of 425 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: there were like eight televisions in a row. It used 426 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: to be three, and then they added to the Minimore 427 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: Networks right right, And I always thought that was cool. 428 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: It's like, oh man, he's got all day long, three 429 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: things running all at once so we can watch what's 430 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: happening with the competition. And then when I got there, 431 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: that was a you know, cool moment too. 432 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I realized. I mean, I know 433 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 2: that I knew at some point that he died that young. 434 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: But it's like, if you talk about NBC in the past, 435 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: you talk about Tartakoff like his name exists, Like yeah, 436 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's James Dean or Kennedy or 437 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 2: any of those sort of leaders that unfortunately leave us 438 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: too soon. And and yeah, has that sort of lore 439 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: yet forty eight? 440 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 1: I just go to a forty. 441 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 2: Forty eight Wow. Yeah, while you were there during this time, 442 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: you developed, I mean cult legendary Saved by the Bell. 443 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: Talk to me about that. Talk to me about how 444 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: Saved by the Bell came about. 445 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: Well, I worked with at the studio. So this idea 446 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: that used to be illegal. There were anti trust laws 447 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: that prevented the networks from also producing their own things, 448 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: so we would just commission from outside studios like Universal 449 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: Television would produce the show for NBC. Those things were 450 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: starting to evolve, and I was on the very first 451 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: iteration of NBC Studios that became sort of their in house. 452 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: So that is how I really got to know Brandon 453 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: because there were only three employees at NBC Studios my 454 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: second year at the company, which was Brandon, my boss, 455 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: Leslie Lurie, and me. So I really did get to 456 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: work with him even closer at a young age. And 457 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: we were producing this show called Good Morning, Miss Bliss, 458 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: about a group of kids in school with Haley Mills, 459 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: who was a famous actress from back in the day, 460 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: and she was I don't know, in their late sixties 461 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: at this point. Inter thing. It was for the Disney Channel. 462 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: We weren't even producing it for NBC. They canceled it. 463 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: It was not good, and Brandon was like, take that, 464 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: the cocky blonde kid, these other two girls and the 465 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: funny nerdy kid, figure out what it is, and we're 466 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: going to do it ourselves and make it ahead and 467 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: shove it down their throats. So that was like Brandon's competitiveness, 468 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: Like they canceled his thing, and now he was going 469 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: to turn into a hit. And Peter Engel, who I'm 470 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: going to text right now, who God bless him is 471 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: still going and strong in his eighties, who created it 472 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: is a one of just a great inspired nut. It 473 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: was my show. I was given this thing. We even 474 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: cooked up the title on a phone call one day 475 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: of like, I was like, what is this thing about? 476 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: What is it? And Peter's head writer at the time, 477 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: I was like, look, this shouldn't be about school when 478 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: you're in school. It's about what happens when you're out 479 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: of school. And this guy Tom Tender, who had said, yeah, 480 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, like say by the Bell, and Peter was like, 481 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: that's a great title, and U and that that was 482 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: the and so on my first year I worked on 483 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: this thing, and I was sort of depressed, to be 484 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: honest with you, because I was like, I spending all 485 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: of my time doing this thing, and all the primetime 486 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: people are putting up all these really you know, we're 487 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: working on like Seinfeld and things that became like institutions, 488 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: and I'm doing this Saturday morning live action kids thing 489 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: that no one gives a crap about. Cut to like 490 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: five hundred episodes later, the thing became an institution, and 491 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: it was intended for like, at the time, tweens watching 492 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: Saturday morning TV, which is like one of the only 493 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: things you had. It was like very few choices when 494 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: you woke up. And when what we never realized was 495 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: like a whole generation of college kids, you know, of 496 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: that age would wake up and kind of you know, 497 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: shake off their Friday night by vegging out watching this show. 498 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: And it became kind of a cult thing. And I 499 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: cannot tell you to this day how strong that thing is. 500 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: I mean, God still alive and well, well yeah, I 501 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: mean it's it's as you say, cult, but yeah, it 502 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: became an institution. I did they really do five hundred episodes? 503 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: Is that? 504 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: Well? They did a couple of spin offs then of right, okay, 505 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: California Dreaming, Dreamings or whatever they called. They did a 506 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: fusee iterations, but it was it was in the hundreds, 507 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: all in in the franchise. 508 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: You also during that time developed Er Network, and you 509 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: supervised the first season of Law and Order. I mean 510 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: these are legendary primetime television shows, both going over twenty seasons. 511 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 2: So I guess they let you off of the Saturday 512 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 2: morning event. 513 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: They did they did, yeah, yeah, then I kind of 514 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: came back and did that again. Crazy. You know, the 515 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: success squeaks its three through in weird ways, you know, 516 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 1: like we went through in the Office, where you know, 517 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: a super impactful generational show barely squeaked its way through life. 518 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean that was my experience more often than not. 519 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: I mean Law and Order, which is now thought of 520 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: as like this insane institution. You know, for a lot 521 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: of listeners are probably like, yeah, my mother's watched it forever, 522 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: But at the time it was this very novel thing. 523 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: Dramas were not selling into syndication because nobody wanted to 524 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: buy one hour shows, so Dick Wolf literally designed it 525 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: as two half hour shows originally that we're going to 526 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: do the Law and the Order, but then they could 527 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: be joined on the first run on television, but then 528 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: they would be syndicated separately. NBC bought this show not 529 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: because they wanted this. This was Dick's like big show, 530 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: but they wanted his hit show, which was going to 531 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: be a thing called Nasty Boys, which was these guys 532 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: with a souped up boat and they were a squad 533 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: that came in in masks and they seized your property 534 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: for drug raids and things, and when they did, they 535 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: got to keep it. So they had super cool motorcycles 536 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: and boats. And it was not a good show. And 537 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm working on I'm, you know, now, only a couple 538 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: of years into my career, and they kind of gave 539 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: them to me in this and I oversaw them and 540 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: everybody's like, how's Nasty Boys going. I was like, you 541 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: know this thing, Law and Order is like really, oh yeah, 542 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: that's talk about Nasty Boys. So Nasty Boys aired, I 543 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: think it like came and went in less than one season, 544 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: and Law and Order was not a huge hit of 545 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: the gate, but was always a very kind of groundbreaking 546 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: show at the time in terms of its rhythms and 547 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: the kind of the hour. It was one of the 548 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: early shows that talked took policing as police was kind 549 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: of talking about a job, you know, like guys would 550 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: be there like you know, talking about their donuts and 551 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: sort of stepping over the body, not like the old 552 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: cops who were like, we just solve this case, you know, 553 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: which was like the old school way, like they're like, yeah, look, 554 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: we see a lot of this stuff. And you know, 555 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: witnesses weren't cooperative and lawyers had to make deals, and 556 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: it was those were like kind of a step forward. 557 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: And then you know, that was an institution. And then 558 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: Er was a similar kind of thing where it was 559 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: when it was screened, it was in the screening room 560 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: from the powers. It'd be were like, we don't get it. 561 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: Right. Talk to me a little bit. Because those two 562 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: shows I consider at least differently what people refer to 563 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: as procedurals. Yeah, and then there's what's the opposite. 564 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: Of that, Well, there were serialized shows, so two different things. 565 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: So the procedural means a closed ended thing, you know, 566 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: and That's one of the reasons that Law and Order 567 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: had such incredible staying power. You didn't need to see 568 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: season one, you didn't need to bing season five to 569 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: catch up. You just you could drop into any episode 570 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: a body dropped in the beginning, and the crime was solved. 571 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: At the end, case closed, and they've done I don't 572 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: know at this point, between the franchise of all the 573 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: different iterations, I don't know how many hundreds of episodes, 574 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: thousands maybe at this point. But a serial show, which 575 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: Er was, and many other great shows and many of 576 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: the biggest shows today are you know, it's an ongoing storyline. Now. 577 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: You had procedural elements in Er, which is, you know, 578 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: the the medical cases would close, you know, come on, 579 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: stat get on the thing coming away with somebody's gonna 580 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: lose She's gonna. 581 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: Lose the baby. 582 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: You know, oh great, at the end of the thing 583 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: they saved the baby, like so all right, so that's closed. 584 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: But the ongoing soap opera part of it, if you will, 585 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: would go on sometimes the whole season, right, and then 586 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: you had to kind of catch up, and you know, 587 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: it was really weird. You know, it was a very 588 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: sticky way of watching television. But you think about it now, 589 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: there was no catchup or binge device. You had to 590 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: just kind of watch to stay. 591 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: You had to watch for you on the network side, 592 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: how do you make those decisions if you're going to 593 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: pick up, are you looking for a balance of both 594 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: that you might be able to sell later on or 595 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: how are those decisions made? 596 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: You know, the business is just so radically different now. 597 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously with the ability to bringe something and 598 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: watch at your own pace and start from the beginning 599 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: with streaming. You know, when you had a one way 600 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: situation where it was a day and date, like it's 601 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: on Tuesday at nine and you have to watch it 602 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: Tuesday at nine and it may repeat somewhere down the road, 603 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: but that it would be your only opportunity to watch. 604 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: I think generationally you explain that to people, and it's 605 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: like trying to explain the telegraph. You know, you're like, 606 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: what why would you do that? Like this and buggy 607 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: thing like that sounds ridiculous. And what was crazy is 608 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: the statistic of viewers somebody who viewed them. I used 609 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: to hear the statistic all the time, even somebody considered 610 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: this self a viewer. Statistically would watch one out of 611 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: six episodes, So I don't know how anybody followed anything, 612 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: but it was a lot of things went into it 613 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: of like you know, still serialized shows did not repeat 614 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: well at all because you just were it was just 615 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: really hard to jump in and randomly see an episode 616 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: and we're like, wait, when did they split up? You know, 617 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: I missed that episode. I don't even know what's going on. 618 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: Really dent shows, you know, like I mean, look the 619 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: early seminal shows like A Hill Street Blues that really 620 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: started multiple storylines going at the same time over the 621 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: course of a season really made them big impact. But 622 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: for a day and date experience, it was always a 623 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: little harder to program those things. 624 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 625 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, now that tends to be the norm because 626 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: it's highly addictive. As you know, when you're when you're 627 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: into a storyline, it feels like you just got to 628 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: keep watching, watching, to the point of a binge. 629 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: Today, why did you leave NBC and go to Borlstein Gray? 630 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: I had just sort of gotten the network had gone 631 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: through a roller coaster of being the top and then 632 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: kind of getting beat up and having some management changes, 633 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: and it just felt like time to make a change. 634 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: I you know, the Tartakoff had left at that point. 635 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: He hadn't passed on, but he had left. It was 636 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: it was not being that much fun. I was getting frustrated. 637 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: I mean, look, as a young guy, I to the 638 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: extent I've made any reputations in the business, I always 639 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: felt like I wanted to reach forward, like you were saying, 640 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: curious about what people were watching and what they wanted 641 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: to watch differently than what was on. You know, there's 642 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: a tendency in general for people to want to do 643 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: what they've seen before, and in television it wasn't that 644 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: much desire. You know, the old Guard to a large 645 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: degree kind of wanted to just serve up the same 646 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: aversion of the same thing they'd done a million times before. 647 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: I was always like, what's next, What's new? And I 648 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: could feel generationally that this thing was really changing. I 649 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: mean that's how some of these shows like Er that 650 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: were like what do you mean the patient dies and 651 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: the doctor's making what do you mean the doctors are 652 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: making jokes while they've got somebody's chest open, the bullet 653 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: with a bullet wound, Like that's you know, that's not 654 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: what the heroes do. What do you mean, a bad 655 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: guy is the center of a show. These were rules 656 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: you didn't break, and I was always like, well, why 657 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't you like that's kind of what the my generation 658 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: I could see the next one wanted, and so I 659 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: was just getting kind of frustrated that this wasn't changing enough. 660 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: So then brill Sen Gray was just this management company 661 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: that had big clients that wanted to go into producing, 662 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: and it seemed like a cool move, and so that's 663 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: what I did. 664 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 2: While you were there, you worked on many shows, to 665 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: name a few, just shoot Me News Radio, Steve Harvey Show, 666 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: and you also worked on the pilot of this little 667 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 2: show called The Sopranos. As The Sopranos is happening, are 668 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 2: you aware of how good it is or what it 669 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: has the potential to be? 670 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: Not initially, because again it was another failure. I mean, 671 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: it was so fascinating to be throughout my career is 672 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: that most of the things that have ended up in 673 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: my resume and my bio were failures that became the successes. 674 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: You know. I mean David Chase, who created it, I 675 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: knew him through you know, David was in his fifties 676 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: at this point, and he had been a one of 677 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: the really fine television writers. He was a rule breaker. 678 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: You know. David's a guy who's always frustrated with this system. 679 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: He wanted to do something more artistic than the formula, 680 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: and he did it to pay the bills, but he 681 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: was always grumbling about it. He's like, I'm doing this 682 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: goddamn thing. So we ended up giving him an overall deal. 683 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: He was always like a new one of the better writers, 684 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: pure writers. And we developed the sopranos for we sold 685 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: it to Fox, and Fox was the upstart network that 686 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: was doing quote unquote edgy stuff, and it went into 687 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: development and it got all the way down the loan 688 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: line and we LaPaglia for a minute was attached as 689 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: Conny's soprano, and we had at least interest from his 690 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: camp and we were going to get it made, and 691 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 1: then Fox passed on it, and then David was depressed, 692 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: and it kicked around for like two years just as 693 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: a passed on project, and eventually found its way over 694 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: to HBO, who sort of picked it up to redevelop it, 695 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: but pretty much had the same script that we had 696 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: at Fox. It wasn't really written and just took the 697 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: Fox out of it. You know, we took all the 698 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: stuff that you couldn't air on broadcasts and then just 699 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: put it back in right and did a little bit 700 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: more development, and then then they agreed to shoot the 701 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: pilot and went through this casting process of the really 702 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: inspired choice to cast Gandelfini, who was really the opposite 703 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: of a leading man, but you can't conceive of anybody 704 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: else doing that role. 705 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, after you shoot the pilot and you see what 706 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: you have, do you see it? Like, are you able 707 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 2: to see that it's going to change HBO and paid television. 708 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: Our company had done the Larry was doing the Larry 709 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: Sanders Show for it. Okay, so this is early early 710 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: HBO where they did two shows and we produced two 711 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: of them. We did Deaf Comedy Jam, which was actually 712 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: a very big show for them, and then at the 713 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: opposite end of that spectrum the Larry's Sanders Show, which 714 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: was kind of, you know, a coastal show, really smart comedy. 715 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: It was it was a fraction of the audience of 716 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: Death Comedy Jam. 717 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 2: Interesting. 718 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: But so they were HbA always trying to find their 719 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: footing too, and collectively, I think everyone was just sort 720 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: of wading into this thing. So it was clearly the 721 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: pilot was clearly something special. But I will say for me, 722 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: anything I've ever been involved in I thought was good. 723 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: You never go I've never said the words this is 724 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: a hit. You know, you look at it and you go, 725 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: this is first like, this is a thing. There's something here, 726 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: and if we keep doing this, it's gonna be good, 727 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: and if we get a little lucky, it actually will 728 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: be something significant. And that's just the way I've always 729 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: looked at it. I've never been surprised, like, oh my god, 730 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: I had no idea that was good. But I've certainly 731 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: been surprised on the downside times. But I've definitely been 732 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: surprised when fine, not pleasantly, like oh my god, they're 733 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: catching on to what we've known for a while. So, yeah, 734 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: the pilot was and Chris Albrick at the time, and 735 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: I've told him this story. I went over to screen 736 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: the pilot and he screened it with Carolyn Strausho has 737 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: gone on to produce many great things, most recently The 738 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: Last of Us for HBO, which was incredible and at 739 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: the end, and I told Chris's story, he doesn't even 740 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,919 Speaker 1: recall doing it, but the lights came up and Chris 741 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: literally put his head in his hands and was rubbing 742 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: his eyes and it felt like it felt like five 743 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: minutes of silence, and then he looked up and he 744 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: was like, it's good. It's really good. And I think 745 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: he had to just wrap his hands around like this 746 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: weird thing of where this guy burns down his best 747 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: friend's restaurant and he's wading in a pool with ducks. 748 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: I think he just had to be like, okay, like 749 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: I think we'll do this, and weirdly, the moment where 750 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: you really really felt like it's been written about, but 751 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: there was, I believe the fourth episode because prior to 752 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: that point, Tony had never directly he had circumstantially ordered 753 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: hits or had talked about You knew he had his 754 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: hands and stuff, but you never saw it directly or 755 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: you never you never saw him directly go go kill 756 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: that fucking guy and then somebody's It was indirect a 757 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: lot of times, and that was part of the art 758 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: of it, you know. There was like the presumption like, eh, 759 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: we did what we had to do in the fourth 760 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: I believe it was a fourth episode of that season, 761 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: that seminal episode where he's taken his daughter on a 762 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: college trip and he sees a guy who's right is wrong, 763 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: and he chokes the guy to death with his bare hands. 764 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: And that was that was a you know now where 765 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: everything that's transpired since feels like, well, yeah, what's the 766 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: big deal. But at the time you're like, wait, this 767 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: is the quote unquote hero of our show. It's one 768 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: thing to know he's a bad guy, but he's a 769 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: bad guy who we kind of like, and he likes 770 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: ducks and his mom doesn't treat him well. So we 771 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: were like, but now he is choking someone to death 772 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: with his bare hands. That's a whole different ballgame. Like 773 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: people going to just go I'm out, Like I'm out, 774 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: I can't get behind this guy. And it was a 775 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: huge debate, and HBO, to their credit, this was the 776 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: early days of them forming their DNA, basically said okay, 777 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: well back you. I mean they first were freaking out, 778 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,240 Speaker 1: but they agreed to back it, and at that moment 779 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: was when I think a lot of people involved were 780 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: sort of like, Wow, now this thing is really in 781 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: a category of it's and I think many for them 782 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 1: just galvanize this thing of like you got to see 783 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: the show. 784 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 2: Right, do you think your experience working on that and 785 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: the success that it had. How much do you think 786 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 2: that that influenced choices that you made in your career 787 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 2: once you became the boss later on? 788 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: Hugely influential. I mean it had been building all the 789 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: way up with the number of things you've even just 790 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: referenced of what my playbook and things my reference points 791 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: were were not anything that the same old, same old 792 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: that I now was accumulating touchstones of things where I go, oh, 793 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: here's where we stuck the finger in the eye of 794 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: what you were supposed to do and it worked out great, 795 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: right so creatively in terms of the work, Yes, that 796 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: became a huge north starter. 797 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,760 Speaker 2: You become president of Entertainment at FX at the time 798 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 2: you transform that network. I mean that network you know 799 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 2: before you arrived, doing a lot of syndication, shitty, just 800 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 2: terrible reruns and one of my other favorite shows of 801 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 2: all time that changed television. It's one thing to have 802 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 2: a mobster strangle somebody. When you start talking about the 803 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 2: shield you've you've now got cops who are doing very 804 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 2: very naughty things. Was your decision and your confidence in 805 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 2: green lighting that and having that show go? Does that 806 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 2: come from the Sopranos and the success. 807 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: I just the business of it was that, for all 808 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: of its impact, HBO's audience penetration at the time, there 809 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: was about one hundred and ten million viewing households in 810 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: the country that could get television of some sort. Even 811 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: cable was getting pretty highly penetrated at that point, you know, 812 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: basic cable, but HBO's subscription cable, they were only in 813 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: about twenty eight million homes, so only a fraction of 814 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: the whole country had even gotten to see They may 815 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,919 Speaker 1: have heard of the Sopranos. But I was like Peter 816 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 1: Legori and I who kind of were in the seats 817 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: at the time. Peter had been at HBO as a 818 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: marketing executive. His history was not as creative. I came 819 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: over there and we basically said, let's get as close 820 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: as we can to HBO on basic cable. You know, 821 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: we can't do everything they do, but we're going to 822 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,439 Speaker 1: try to be as sort of finger in your eye 823 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: as possible. And this was written as a spec script, 824 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: as a writing sample. It was given to me by 825 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: and somebody said you should read this. This guy, Sean Ryan, 826 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: is a good writer. And I read it, and I 827 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: met with him, and I said, well, we're going to 828 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: make this, and he goes, what do you mean, And 829 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: I go, we'll make this. He goes like that. I go, yeah, 830 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: we'll make this, and he still he couldn't believe it. 831 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: He was a young guy, had never run a show. 832 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: And it was truly one of the great experiences of 833 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: my career, just the whole thing it went down. We 834 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: were it was such a ragtag shitty I took a 835 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: pay cut to go to that job. I went from 836 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: these beautiful offices in Beverly Hills with magnificent literally recognizable 837 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: art on the wall and the designer would have to 838 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: approve your furniture choice to the this shithole on Suppulvita Boulevard. 839 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: Literally there was it was shag carpeting from like the eighties. 840 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: There was a giant stain in the middle of it. 841 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: There was a hole. Someone had punched a hole in 842 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: the wall of my office and just hung a picture 843 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,240 Speaker 1: over it, but not it didn't fully cover the hole. 844 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: And so it was just felt like, what this really 845 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: ragtag operation? And we kind of made this thing and 846 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: under the radar, I remember, you know, technically it was 847 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: an ADS supported network. We screened this for advertisers in 848 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: New York, and like dozens of them bolted for the 849 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: door after the lights came up. They like didn't even 850 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: want to look us in the eye. They're like, we're 851 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: not putting. And I remember Donna Speciali, who became I 852 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,920 Speaker 1: worked with for years at Turner, was the head of 853 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: ad sales who I really loved. At the time, she 854 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: was at some I forget what agency was. She was 855 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: a big buyer, and she came up She's like, I 856 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: really like this and I'm gonna watch you guys, and 857 00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: I'm gonna see how this goes. I'm not putting a 858 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: nickel into this show. And the only the only thing 859 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: that the only advertiser we had was Mike's Hard Lemonade 860 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: on FX. They literally nobody else would touch it but 861 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: Mike's Hard Lemonade. And then we just filled it with 862 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: Mattress King commercials and a bunch of shitty local stuff, 863 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,479 Speaker 1: right nobody, you know, that stuff was too too edgy 864 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: for them to put any advertising in. But that was 865 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: like the foundational DNA for the network. And I recently 866 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: caught up and Binge the Bear. I don't know if 867 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: you saw it. I loved it. Blew me away. I 868 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: thought it was brilliant, and I was like, man, there 869 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: it is some of that same DNA still in that place. 870 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, in addition to the shield Nip tuck, Rescue Me, Yeah, 871 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 2: a very very different sort. What is Rescue Me a 872 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 2: comedy or a drama? 873 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: Yes? I only bought the I bought only bought the 874 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,760 Speaker 1: original script, and then I had transitioned over to NBC. 875 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: I was already in transition. I had the job, and 876 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: I had the in my side pocket, while I in 877 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: my right pocket was kind of Rescue Me, and in 878 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: my left pocket was this thing called the Office that 879 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: I'd be given the tape of that. I was like, 880 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: all right, I'm not making that at effects. I'm going 881 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: to NBC. 882 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. We talked a lot about the Office being the 883 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 2: savior of the Office. My name is Earl, which you 884 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 2: know saved the Office as well. So thank you for 885 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 2: that one thirty rock Yeah, Friday Night Lights heroes, I mean, 886 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 2: and then on the unscripted side, Dealer, no deal, America's 887 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 2: got talent, and many many more. This is incredible. The 888 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 2: year that you you will you leave again. In two 889 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 2: thousand and seven, sixty nine Emmy nominations that year across 890 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 2: all of these shows. It's I mean, it's a huge 891 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 2: legacy that you left. You leave to go to Fox. 892 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 2: But talk to me a little bit about that transition 893 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 2: they for you, do you feel like you got treated unfairly? 894 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,799 Speaker 1: Look at the time, I would say, what was so 895 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: ironic is the four years NBC had really gotten very 896 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 1: entitled of you know, the landscape was really changing. At 897 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: this point. There were you know, bonafide four networks now 898 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 1: for you know, about a decade at that point, since 899 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: eighty eight when Fox was founded. Only towards the end 900 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: how they launched this little show called American Idol. So 901 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: Fox was about to go. You know, they had the 902 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 1: Simpsons and things like that, so it was X files. 903 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: Fox was really a bonafide challenger and always sort of 904 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 1: did a lot of pounds for a pound of cool 905 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,920 Speaker 1: stuff that I always thought was cool on television. NBC 906 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: had been at the top and gotten you know, on 907 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: the front the er Friends, Seinfeld trifecta was just a juggernaut. 908 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: But it was beginning to you know, Seinfeld had gone off, 909 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: it was coming down. Friends was on its last days. 910 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: Law and Order was still on, but had you know, 911 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 1: they had all come down to earth and you could 912 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 1: see the writing on the wall that it was about 913 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: to really go from hanging on to the top to 914 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,719 Speaker 1: being bad, being in trouble. And that's when I joined. 915 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: And I was very naive, thinking, well, I'm just going 916 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:18,719 Speaker 1: to be the savior of this place and I'll be 917 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: like Brandon Tartakoff, I'll turn it around and everyone will 918 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: tell me I'm a genius. But now we're also fighting 919 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,880 Speaker 1: a broader environment. You know where it's the beginning the 920 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: early early stages of digital consumption generationally. You know this 921 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: idea of watching day and day, and I know this 922 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,800 Speaker 1: in my gut. I'm like broadcast television in my mind, 923 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: is in its last breadths of dominance. It's but I 924 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 1: was like, everybody's got to face the facts that NBC, 925 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: the juggernaut, that of what it was of turning on 926 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: must see TV Thursday night, those days are not coming back. 927 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: And I just felt like it needed to be rebuilt 928 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,319 Speaker 1: from the ground up with really cool stuff that the 929 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:07,800 Speaker 1: next generation wanted to watch. Even if Grant Tinker early 930 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: in his career, who was Brandon Tartakoff's boss, he at 931 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: the time when they rebuilt it way back in a 932 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: different era had this expression saying, first, be best, then 933 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,720 Speaker 1: be first, And I always love that, and I always 934 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,000 Speaker 1: thought it was really meaningful. First, be best, then be first. 935 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: When you're a first place network, that means billions of dollars, 936 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: that means profits, That means everyone gets big fat bonuses 937 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: and bragging rights. Right when your best but not first 938 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,960 Speaker 1: and have slipped and you're losing starting to lose a 939 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,280 Speaker 1: lot of that money. Not so fun on the business level. 940 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: We were owned by General Electric at this and ge 941 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: was just used to this little cash machine. Just Seinfeld 942 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 1: comes and sell, you know, tells jokes at our giant 943 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: retreat to guys who make locomotives and turbines and tractors 944 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 1: and so cool. And then you know, we were a 945 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: small business in the GEO portfolio, but we paid a 946 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,280 Speaker 1: lot of cash, so it was a fast cycle business. 947 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: You know, when you're making jet engines, that's a big 948 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,360 Speaker 1: capital thing that doesn't pay out for long cycles. You know, 949 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: in television, you have a season and at the end 950 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: of the season, it's like, oh, here's the cash, and 951 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,840 Speaker 1: you can just it's available. It's not tied up in 952 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 1: this big thing. So they liked us. We were just 953 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: a big cash machine, but all of a sudden when 954 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: it started turning really challenging and cash intensive, not so 955 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: much fun from Fairfield. And you know, as somebody said 956 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: back in the day, they send them guys with the clipboards. 957 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: And when they send the guys with the clipboards there 958 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 1: to help, you really don't want the help. Like it's 959 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of consultants and people going, Brian, how are you? 960 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: How are things? 961 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 5: So? 962 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: Why would you have done that? Why would you have 963 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: put on that kind of show? For example? People don't 964 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,080 Speaker 1: seem to enjoy and you're trying to tell this like 965 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 1: walk from Fairfield, Like, first of all, you are a 966 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: tight ass NBA who has zero You don't even you 967 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,359 Speaker 1: have bad loafers on. You certainly don't have a feel 968 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: for fucking culture. Go talk to the jet engine guys, 969 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 1: because you are not going to fix this place. And 970 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,399 Speaker 1: the building was crawling with those people. So I'm trying 971 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: to put on some of these cool shows only other 972 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,600 Speaker 1: than Heroes, which was a bit of a hit right 973 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 1: at the gate and kind of a cultural thing, but 974 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 1: not enough like Friends to single handedly turn the network around. 975 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: And I thought we were doing really cool work but 976 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,640 Speaker 1: to be honest with you, I was getting almost not 977 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 1: only was I not getting credit, I was getting nothing 978 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: but second guessing. I was rumored to be fired every 979 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: other week. And so again like a really I went 980 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: from this incredible FX thing where it was like the 981 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 1: most fun thing, but it was three years and all 982 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I had that dream job. I thought 983 00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: back at Brandon Tardakoff's desk with the actual thing. And 984 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,200 Speaker 1: even the day I did the job, I got an 985 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: award called the Brandon Tartakoff Award, which was like kind 986 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 1: of like the best of the best in broadcasting. And 987 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: I went down and got the award in Miami, and 988 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 1: I kind of told that story like I had the 989 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,719 Speaker 1: day I got it, I had this sinking feeling. I 990 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 1: sat at his desk, I looked up at the Bank 991 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: of Televisions and I was like, this is fucking cool, 992 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,480 Speaker 1: and I have made a terrible, terrible mistake coming here. 993 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,560 Speaker 1: And so what was awesome is that the shows, the 994 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,920 Speaker 1: stuff we did I was always really proud of, and 995 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: it all then went on to have cultural impact and 996 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,920 Speaker 1: then business impact, like the office that is one of 997 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: the biggest assets in their whole portfolio today but as 998 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,200 Speaker 1: we lived, it didn't start that way, and so you know, 999 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: I was pretty much invited to not do that job 1000 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,920 Speaker 1: after four years. And yeah, I was pretty fucking uh 1001 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: I was not. I was pretty bent out of shape 1002 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:54,480 Speaker 1: over it all. 1003 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Fox gladly takes you, yeah. 1004 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,759 Speaker 1: Very quickly. Like I was like, oh my god, that's 1005 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,040 Speaker 1: what I was doing. I was setting into staff meetings 1006 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: and going NBC, I mean Fox, Like, I kept like, 1007 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: I'm like, what am I doing back in one of 1008 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:10,799 Speaker 1: these places? They can't believe it? 1009 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:16,759 Speaker 2: Go on to have huge success at Fox Brooklyn nine nine, 1010 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 2: A lot of office folks by the way that you 1011 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 2: you bring over there, Mindy Project, Last New Girl, Glee, 1012 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,239 Speaker 2: as well as tons of animated hits. Yeah, of all 1013 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 2: of the show I have a question of all the 1014 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,120 Speaker 2: shows that you've done, and don't pander because I'm here, 1015 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,839 Speaker 2: what are you the most proud of? 1016 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,120 Speaker 1: There's there's different things for different different moments, you know, 1017 00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,440 Speaker 1: I mean you were you were talking about the Shield 1018 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,280 Speaker 1: and that experience of kind of all of a sudden 1019 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,960 Speaker 1: making a service, like completely repositioning a service that then 1020 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 1: went from a money losing, irrelevant thing to a profit 1021 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,320 Speaker 1: what became kind of a really meaningful brand was and 1022 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: we had so much fun. I mean, we were just 1023 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,080 Speaker 1: those shows you mentioned, and you know, we won the 1024 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: first Primetime Emmy and Golden Globes Awards. I mean when 1025 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,760 Speaker 1: Michael Chickliss first got up to take the first Emmy, 1026 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,000 Speaker 1: I literally grabbed his arm like what are you doing, 1027 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,000 Speaker 1: Like you didn't win, and he was like he looked 1028 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:23,840 Speaker 1: at me and he's like, just go with it, because 1029 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,080 Speaker 1: he did win, and everybody was like, what the hell 1030 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,920 Speaker 1: is that? So there's experiences like that. I've had, you know, 1031 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,360 Speaker 1: moments in other shows, but all kidding aside the experience 1032 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,320 Speaker 1: of the office where it was. Look, at that point, 1033 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,799 Speaker 1: I had made a decision I'm probably going to get 1034 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: fired from this job at some point. I'm hanging on 1035 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: by a thread. I am going to just fall on 1036 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,440 Speaker 1: my sword for the things I believe in. And somebody 1037 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:52,960 Speaker 1: had given me his advice like the worst thing you 1038 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,400 Speaker 1: could do is sell out and do what the bosses 1039 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,440 Speaker 1: want you to and then fail. Then you can't even 1040 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,960 Speaker 1: look yourself in the mirror. So I was like, if 1041 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,359 Speaker 1: they fire me, at least I want to say even 1042 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,000 Speaker 1: if they don't work, I want to say, well, I 1043 00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: put on what I believed because I have that power 1044 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 1: to fight for some things. And the office was just 1045 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 1: I don't know, just from a minute one, I'm like, 1046 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: this is this is one of those ones. I'm just 1047 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 1: not giving up on this thing. And then because it 1048 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,439 Speaker 1: had like really good people involved and it was such 1049 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,279 Speaker 1: a moment in time for all of us. You know, 1050 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,680 Speaker 1: I'm looking at our picture here, Brian, when you know, 1051 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,000 Speaker 1: at the When we Want Night, we won the Emmy 1052 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,560 Speaker 1: and they're hoisting me up, and I love looking at 1053 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,799 Speaker 1: that photo, not just because it's it's pure, you know. 1054 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,640 Speaker 1: I mean, as we know, show business is a is 1055 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 1: a rough and tumble game man, and and everybody's got 1056 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,280 Speaker 1: scars to do, you know. I just shared some of mine, 1057 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, And but it's in its pure moment when 1058 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,520 Speaker 1: the thing happens and it's sort of coming out the 1059 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 1: way you dreamed you And look, some talented people are 1060 00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,719 Speaker 1: are very complicated. I had a really amazing experience on 1061 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:06,880 Speaker 1: thirty Rock. I adore Tina. She's an incredible talent. Tina 1062 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,359 Speaker 1: had a star named Alec Baldwin. Enormously talented guy and 1063 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: obviously publicly enormously complicated. And so you know, there's a 1064 00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, as Lauren said one point after Alec quit 1065 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,920 Speaker 1: for the fourteenth time, after he had won the Emmy 1066 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,120 Speaker 1: the night before, his agent calls up to say, I 1067 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,240 Speaker 1: just have to inform you that Alec is quitting the show, 1068 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 1: which is at this point literally was about the seventh 1069 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,240 Speaker 1: and I remember Lauren at the time saying, Alec will 1070 00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,040 Speaker 1: realize in retrospect it this was a good time, you know, 1071 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: And but when you're in it, and this moment of 1072 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 1: this picture I'm literally looking at of my left eye 1073 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: over here, is pure joy for people who some of 1074 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: whom needed a job and had a great one, and 1075 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,040 Speaker 1: others who just realized they were part of something special 1076 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,600 Speaker 1: and we got the affirmation. And that just for me, 1077 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,560 Speaker 1: and the fact really as it is for you, the 1078 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: fact that then it went on to be one of 1079 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,280 Speaker 1: those rare shows where like now now you're into like 1080 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:09,880 Speaker 1: kids who weren't even born are at the time we're watching, and. 1081 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:11,360 Speaker 2: I really love it. 1082 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 1: You know. That's that those are really rare at this era, 1083 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: and so that's a pretty cool. 1084 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you consider yourself a creative. 1085 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,240 Speaker 1: Yes, in my heart, I've always had that temperament. I 1086 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,840 Speaker 1: think it's why I both succeeded in a certain respect 1087 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,800 Speaker 1: would and some of those struggles I will say that 1088 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,640 Speaker 1: I had that I'm outlining with the system and the man. 1089 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:38,000 Speaker 1: I just never wanted to be like the bureaucrat suit 1090 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,000 Speaker 1: that is just in the suite going like sure thing, 1091 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,840 Speaker 1: let's just do that because that's safe and we'll keep 1092 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,800 Speaker 1: our jobs. I was always kind of an irritant, and 1093 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,440 Speaker 1: I think those who appreciated it, and probably at a 1094 00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,760 Speaker 1: younger age, I was too much, you know at times, 1095 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, they were just they don't want you always 1096 00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,840 Speaker 1: trying to rock the boat. So you know, that's part 1097 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,320 Speaker 1: of what a creative is, you know. And the entrepreneurs 1098 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 1: are a version of that. 1099 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 5: There. 1100 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,680 Speaker 1: They want to press up, they want to do what 1101 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,000 Speaker 1: other people haven't done, and they got to kind of 1102 00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,440 Speaker 1: have a blind belief in their ideas. And so yeah, 1103 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,720 Speaker 1: that's where I'm the most comfortable, and that's why I'm look, 1104 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,320 Speaker 1: I'm not ever going back to those jobs again. Those 1105 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,040 Speaker 1: big executive jobs are behind me. 1106 00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:30,280 Speaker 2: Bill Lawrence, co creator of Spence City Scrubs, was quoted 1107 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,720 Speaker 2: as saying, every morning, all the writers start the day 1108 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,480 Speaker 2: with a cup of coffee talking about what assholes the 1109 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:42,200 Speaker 2: network executives are Kevin seems like one of us enough 1110 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,720 Speaker 2: that you find yourself not hating him. 1111 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,080 Speaker 1: That's so funny. You know, I've known Bill a long time. 1112 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: I haven't seen it was literally my neighbor for a 1113 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: bunch of years in my house just before this one, 1114 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,560 Speaker 1: and I really appreciate hearing that. But he's funny. 1115 00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 5: That's perfect Bill. 1116 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,160 Speaker 2: We're in a historic moment right now. It's clear whatever 1117 01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,200 Speaker 2: happens with the resolution of these strikes, both the WGA 1118 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,960 Speaker 2: and sag AFTRA, this is going to change entertainment and 1119 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:32,720 Speaker 2: television in many ways. Well, first off, do you believe 1120 01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,560 Speaker 2: the strike should be happening? Yes? 1121 01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:41,320 Speaker 1: And no. I yes because frankly, they're really legitimate issues 1122 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:47,400 Speaker 1: and I really feel for the artist community. But no, 1123 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,760 Speaker 1: because it's look, at this moment, it's kind of the 1124 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,520 Speaker 1: only mechanism to try to force some sort of change. 1125 01:00:55,240 --> 01:01:00,919 Speaker 1: But the landscape of the industry is changed beyond what 1126 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,160 Speaker 1: the strike will be able to affect. So while I'd 1127 01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,200 Speaker 1: like to believe that on the other side of the strike, 1128 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 1: the foundations in place where like we've changed the industry 1129 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,680 Speaker 1: for the better and gotten our think it's I've gotten 1130 01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,280 Speaker 1: divorced I remember my divorce lawyer saying at the time, like, 1131 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,160 Speaker 1: no one wins, it's just how much are you willing 1132 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,120 Speaker 1: to compromise, So there's not going to be a win. 1133 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,600 Speaker 1: It will be a compromise all the way around. And look, 1134 01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 1: the unfortunate thing is I've been asked, like even there's 1135 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,120 Speaker 1: somebody from New York Times like begging me to come 1136 01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,200 Speaker 1: on their podcast and talk because I'm like a neutral 1137 01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: person who understands all the issues here. And I've avoided 1138 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,440 Speaker 1: it all because I will shoot my mouth off and 1139 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,040 Speaker 1: regret it. But what happened here is that a bus 1140 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 1: rolled into town called Netflix. That everybody got on that 1141 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,040 Speaker 1: party bus, and everybody when they were firing money all 1142 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,320 Speaker 1: over the place and had this new model my last 1143 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,120 Speaker 1: thing as a corporate eriotage, I always felt like, this 1144 01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:01,840 Speaker 1: is an unbelievable thing they're building, that's an incredible consumer experience, 1145 01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:03,000 Speaker 1: and don't you think this is going to be a 1146 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,720 Speaker 1: problem for us? And all the powers that be were like, 1147 01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 1: they don't They're gonna go out of business, and they 1148 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 1: kept selling all of our stuff over there. But look, 1149 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 1: I also felt like the artist got on that party bus. 1150 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,680 Speaker 1: The irony part of the writers. You know the series 1151 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 1: writers issues right now is it's only ten episodes. You know, 1152 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,080 Speaker 1: they don't they don't have big grill bust writers rooms. 1153 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,480 Speaker 1: I mean I used to talk to writers who are like, 1154 01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:27,800 Speaker 1: why would I come do your network show for twenty two? 1155 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 1: I only have to do ten? At Netflix? This is great. 1156 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,120 Speaker 1: You know, they were ordering at like a six to 1157 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,160 Speaker 1: one ratio from what so everybody was taking the money 1158 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,440 Speaker 1: and having a great old time with Netflix. And Netflix 1159 01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,640 Speaker 1: uberized the business, you know, they turned it upside down 1160 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,400 Speaker 1: for better and worse. And the studios they were on 1161 01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 1: the party bus because they were selling We were selling 1162 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:56,000 Speaker 1: them all of our stuff really arrogantly misjudging the impact 1163 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,560 Speaker 1: it was going to have, not really getting out ahead 1164 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,680 Speaker 1: of like what do we have to do? Should we 1165 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,000 Speaker 1: take this thing seriously? What should we do? We just 1166 01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,480 Speaker 1: thought we could somehow wait it out or wait till 1167 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,360 Speaker 1: they die, And yet we were fueling them with our 1168 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:15,560 Speaker 1: stuff by giving them our shows. And the studio leadership 1169 01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,200 Speaker 1: did almost the worst thing. You know, I said to 1170 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,840 Speaker 1: someone the other day, like, let's stick with this somehow. 1171 01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,040 Speaker 1: Traffic analogy, like if you're going to go through a 1172 01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,320 Speaker 1: yellow light, you want to kind of go fast enough 1173 01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,160 Speaker 1: to go through safely through that yellow light before it 1174 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,000 Speaker 1: turns red. The worst thing to do is to slow 1175 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,040 Speaker 1: down and go slow and then gun it and then 1176 01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,120 Speaker 1: go through a red light, which is sort of what 1177 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,000 Speaker 1: the studios did with streaming. They waited and let this 1178 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:45,680 Speaker 1: thing begin to seriously erode and you could see where 1179 01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,520 Speaker 1: it was going to erode their business, and then lurched 1180 01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:54,240 Speaker 1: into it, further accelerating their problems. And so what we 1181 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,440 Speaker 1: have now is a business where the legacy companies have 1182 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,680 Speaker 1: underlying issues. Bob Eiger came out a few weeks ago 1183 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:04,600 Speaker 1: and said, these guys don't get it. I mean, it 1184 01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,720 Speaker 1: wasn't a great look for Bob it certainly, I'm sure 1185 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,240 Speaker 1: a moment he regrets having doing it with the Billionaire's 1186 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,520 Speaker 1: conference behind him, really a bad look. What he's not 1187 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:17,000 Speaker 1: wrong about, though, is that these this strike is not 1188 01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,160 Speaker 1: striking against the business we just talked about, this monopolistic 1189 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,600 Speaker 1: business that was born almost one hundred years ago that 1190 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:29,840 Speaker 1: we actually got to participate form, Bryan. It's now a 1191 01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:36,560 Speaker 1: stressed business that is stretched where the legacy players, the WarnerMedia, Discoveries, NBCUS, 1192 01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,560 Speaker 1: Paramount who yesterday sold Simon and Schuster and is they're 1193 01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:42,560 Speaker 1: gonna start, They're gonna have to strip down the pieces 1194 01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 1: of these companies. They're not going to come rocketing back 1195 01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,080 Speaker 1: in business as usual. And for the most part, the 1196 01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,960 Speaker 1: digital players are not in our business as we knew it. 1197 01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean, Amazon, does you know, I'm Apple's doing in 1198 01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,240 Speaker 1: some really cool shows right now. Last I checked. That's 1199 01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,920 Speaker 1: not their core business. They sell these things and they 1200 01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,920 Speaker 1: make trillions of dollars. I mean, they're they're highly profitable 1201 01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:11,720 Speaker 1: doing that. So the power basis shifted, how the business 1202 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:15,600 Speaker 1: work is shifting. And when the actors who are robbed 1203 01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:20,640 Speaker 1: of their residual payments, which was harder thing that when 1204 01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,880 Speaker 1: you got a good job that could pay your rent 1205 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:27,040 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. That I feel for 1206 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:31,080 Speaker 1: the hard You know, I love actors, you know, because 1207 01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,400 Speaker 1: I mean it's such a beautiful thing, and actors are 1208 01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,720 Speaker 1: wonderfully naive in terms of like I just want to 1209 01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,120 Speaker 1: do the work and then like, yeah, I'm okay with it, 1210 01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,400 Speaker 1: but just like, let me have my let me have 1211 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,880 Speaker 1: my checks that come for that work I did. And 1212 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,400 Speaker 1: now they get checks for like thirty five cents. But 1213 01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,600 Speaker 1: in order to report that you have to have transparency 1214 01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,200 Speaker 1: on the actual usage of the service, which Netflix started 1215 01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,440 Speaker 1: the game by never reporting any of that, right, and 1216 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:03,280 Speaker 1: they still don't. And unless there becomes more transparency, you're 1217 01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,840 Speaker 1: not going to really be able to measure. So it 1218 01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:07,840 Speaker 1: was imperfect. But we used to have a thing called 1219 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:12,080 Speaker 1: rating and in the box and box office, which were 1220 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:17,240 Speaker 1: measurements of success. Right, those don't exist. So my point 1221 01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:21,720 Speaker 1: is it's a much more complicated tapestry. The issues are legit, 1222 01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 1: but this strike mechanism. Look, do I think everyone should 1223 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,120 Speaker 1: have held hands and together gone, listen, guys, we're all 1224 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,240 Speaker 1: in this together with different agendas. But this business, we 1225 01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,080 Speaker 1: got to figure out a different path forward. Yeah, but 1226 01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,400 Speaker 1: they didn't, you know, they let it get to the 1227 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,800 Speaker 1: eleventh hour and then a strike happens. So I think 1228 01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,280 Speaker 1: the double strike, I think the actors really will together 1229 01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,600 Speaker 1: force some step forward. But I'd love to say it's 1230 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,520 Speaker 1: all going to be fixed. It's not going to be. 1231 01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:54,360 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Well, as someone said to me, it's been fifty 1232 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:59,640 Speaker 2: years since the last actors strike. Ronald Reagan was SAG 1233 01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,240 Speaker 2: president at the time, and the issues were much the 1234 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,160 Speaker 2: same as it has been explained to me, which is 1235 01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:10,800 Speaker 2: actors sitting around when shows were rerun and saying, why 1236 01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,040 Speaker 2: people are still enjoying our work? Why are we not 1237 01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:17,520 Speaker 2: getting money for that? Yes, and I mean there's other issues, 1238 01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,720 Speaker 2: and I don't mean to belittle all of them, but 1239 01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,440 Speaker 2: that there was a negotiated rate that at least everyone 1240 01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:30,920 Speaker 2: could except for work that now it doesn't exist. It's interesting, 1241 01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:35,120 Speaker 2: it does feel like which I think has been the problem, 1242 01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,240 Speaker 2: a little bit like trying to put a pin on 1243 01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:43,920 Speaker 2: something that keeps moving. That the way things are consumed, 1244 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:49,320 Speaker 2: the way monetization formula could be made. It's all shifting 1245 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:50,160 Speaker 2: so quickly. 1246 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,280 Speaker 1: Yes, but also let's not if you really even just 1247 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,360 Speaker 1: back up even further in the Ronald Reagan era, even 1248 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,080 Speaker 1: up until the Office Area era, where the writing you know, 1249 01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,400 Speaker 1: as we remember The Office was, if not the first show, 1250 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,520 Speaker 1: one of the very early shows onto the iPod. You know, 1251 01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:11,480 Speaker 1: when all of a sudden there's a video that could 1252 01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:16,320 Speaker 1: be downloaded and streamed legitimately. So let's just use from that, 1253 01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,519 Speaker 1: you know, the beginning filmed entertainment, whether it was at 1254 01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,440 Speaker 1: the box office or on your television, was the pinnacle 1255 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:31,920 Speaker 1: of cultural consumption. Like that was what the kids talked about. 1256 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:33,960 Speaker 1: That was the write of pasth you went to the 1257 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,080 Speaker 1: movies with your friends, you sat around the television and 1258 01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:40,280 Speaker 1: tuned in at eight o'clock at night. Everybody bought Michael 1259 01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:44,920 Speaker 1: Jackson's thriller. It was a very almost sort of monopolistic 1260 01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:49,040 Speaker 1: kind of environment. The environment today between the gaming world 1261 01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,639 Speaker 1: and the interactive and all the TikTok and everything pressing 1262 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:56,360 Speaker 1: in from the sides that is highly demanding of your time, 1263 01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,640 Speaker 1: and then the streaming business that has then upended the 1264 01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,400 Speaker 1: middle of it. You have something that is a much 1265 01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:07,559 Speaker 1: more complicated landscape to manage. So it's true the issues 1266 01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,800 Speaker 1: are still the same, and at the time, I'm sure 1267 01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,600 Speaker 1: they had really rational reasons why they weren't. You know, 1268 01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,800 Speaker 1: you'd be beginning going back to the earlier artist employees 1269 01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 1: when well, you worked for us, you were contract players, 1270 01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,160 Speaker 1: and you did what we did. So then it get no, 1271 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,920 Speaker 1: you know what, we're not your employees. We need to 1272 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:29,320 Speaker 1: be paid as our independent contractors of sorts with real rights, 1273 01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:33,120 Speaker 1: which is what the unionization helped bring about. They are 1274 01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,240 Speaker 1: the same fundamental issues, but unfortunately now the ability to 1275 01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,920 Speaker 1: is not. It's not the five families at the top 1276 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,360 Speaker 1: that just say all right, once I waived this wand 1277 01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:47,759 Speaker 1: it just is fixed. They're public companies under tremendous stress 1278 01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,360 Speaker 1: that their growth engine is highly compromised. That's not clear 1279 01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:56,160 Speaker 1: what's really driving these companies forward. They're very big, probably 1280 01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,080 Speaker 1: in some regards need to be stripped down and recombined 1281 01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:03,200 Speaker 1: and probably will, and so this makes these things much 1282 01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:09,400 Speaker 1: more complicated, unfortunately, and the streaming business again a large degree. 1283 01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:11,280 Speaker 1: They're talking about the fact that you know, I'm in 1284 01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:14,519 Speaker 1: I read an article recently about Orange is the New 1285 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,519 Speaker 1: Black cast on how early days of Netflix, they had 1286 01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,360 Speaker 1: this international hit and the actors would go places and 1287 01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:25,400 Speaker 1: be mobbed, but then they literally would get like checks 1288 01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,920 Speaker 1: for dollar ninety five and they're like, wait a minute, 1289 01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,240 Speaker 1: I thought when you had a hit, you were paid 1290 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:35,080 Speaker 1: at least enough to pay your rent. And that's heartbreaking. 1291 01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:39,200 Speaker 1: But it does show that Netflix created a different model, 1292 01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,880 Speaker 1: and they don't report still to this day. Here's how 1293 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,240 Speaker 1: many actual people used and saw your thing. So maybe 1294 01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:52,320 Speaker 1: there is a way to create these tiers. But the 1295 01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:55,880 Speaker 1: business is betwixt and between this new player that sort 1296 01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:58,519 Speaker 1: of took over and then the older players that tried 1297 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,360 Speaker 1: to transition but just have a lot of they're not 1298 01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:02,840 Speaker 1: they're not really one and the same. 1299 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:09,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very complicated. We talk a lot about the 1300 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,800 Speaker 2: success of the office and after we were done, and 1301 01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:16,400 Speaker 2: here's the thing that sticks with me. You have people 1302 01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,800 Speaker 2: who made a lot of money, networks that made a 1303 01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,680 Speaker 2: lot of money off of the office, and then syndication 1304 01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,599 Speaker 2: deals that happened both with Turner and with some small 1305 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:34,120 Speaker 2: network syndication and NBC Universal decides seven years after the 1306 01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:37,320 Speaker 2: office is done and all the money that has been 1307 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,880 Speaker 2: earned and paid and all of that, that it's worth 1308 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:46,080 Speaker 2: five hundred and sixty five million dollars to reacquire the office. 1309 01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:52,000 Speaker 2: It's hard to think that they're not making money. 1310 01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:57,080 Speaker 1: On that. Oh yes, I mean that that is a 1311 01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:00,479 Speaker 1: highly highly, highly profitable They don't. They don't spend that 1312 01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,160 Speaker 1: kind of money for something that is not an earner, 1313 01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, yes. 1314 01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:09,559 Speaker 2: Right, And so where's how does that trickle down? Like 1315 01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,479 Speaker 2: if you have to me an acknowledgment that there's a 1316 01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:15,760 Speaker 2: valuable property and it's not just the office, obviously, it's 1317 01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:20,040 Speaker 2: just more personal for me. I hope she wouldn't be 1318 01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,160 Speaker 2: upset that I shared this, But Jenni Fisher at one 1319 01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,599 Speaker 2: point said, you know what's crazy, And this was when 1320 01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,800 Speaker 2: that figure was out there all the time. Is that 1321 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:32,639 Speaker 2: you know, a person reads that and thinks, oh, look 1322 01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,120 Speaker 2: how much money the actors got, like look look how 1323 01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:40,960 Speaker 2: good they're doing. They are they are rich, Yet the 1324 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:45,280 Speaker 2: formula remains remains unchanged, and that that to me is 1325 01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:46,200 Speaker 2: just confusing. 1326 01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,840 Speaker 1: You know. That is the age old thing like this 1327 01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:52,240 Speaker 1: is we could talk about this for an hour in 1328 01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:54,960 Speaker 1: and of itself, but the you know, the studio accounting 1329 01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:58,280 Speaker 1: which has always been the thing, even going back to 1330 01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:02,600 Speaker 1: the heyday of Hollywood, crazy people with different pieces of 1331 01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,960 Speaker 1: ownership and underlying financing and weird structures that when it 1332 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,160 Speaker 1: would go through the accounting system, it was always an 1333 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:11,879 Speaker 1: old joke of like, oh we did it, and amazing, 1334 01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:15,800 Speaker 1: you're you're still losing money and because of the. 1335 01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:17,960 Speaker 2: Right right how many back end deals? 1336 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,559 Speaker 1: Actually that does go back, you know, decades and decades 1337 01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,439 Speaker 1: and decades because a lot of cost would get loaded 1338 01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:27,599 Speaker 1: in and they you know, had acquire big studio lots 1339 01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,880 Speaker 1: and things that were getting loaded into that. And you know, 1340 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,320 Speaker 1: just as you do in your own personal accounting, where 1341 01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:35,160 Speaker 1: if you've made some money you try to have right 1342 01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,720 Speaker 1: offs and like oh, okay, well I didn't really make 1343 01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,439 Speaker 1: one hundred grand on that I only made twenty because 1344 01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,000 Speaker 1: look at all these costs. So studios have always done 1345 01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the same thing, and sadly it has taken lawsuits, usually 1346 01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:50,479 Speaker 1: for being challenged to go in, or audits if they're 1347 01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:52,840 Speaker 1: not as public, to go in and say, you know what, 1348 01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,839 Speaker 1: this doesn't feel right. We're banding together. We got lawyers 1349 01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:57,800 Speaker 1: and accountants and we're going to go in and find 1350 01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:00,559 Speaker 1: And then there was either some giant settlement or a 1351 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:05,479 Speaker 1: case where finally things would be even doubt And so yeah, 1352 01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:09,240 Speaker 1: those dynamics that have been around for too long, and 1353 01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:13,960 Speaker 1: yet there still was the irony is even the office 1354 01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,439 Speaker 1: arguably one of the last of the good ones from 1355 01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:20,040 Speaker 1: the old days quote unquote, and even that, you can 1356 01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:23,200 Speaker 1: you can feel your own you know, you're you're you're 1357 01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,000 Speaker 1: an upbeat guy, like you're what you've had your moment. 1358 01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,519 Speaker 1: You're like, wow, I really thought that would have had 1359 01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,920 Speaker 1: a little more trickle down here. Okay, but now you 1360 01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,760 Speaker 1: look forward to guys who are doing Look, there is 1361 01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:38,840 Speaker 1: no streaming equivalent because there is no multi generational two 1362 01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,800 Speaker 1: hundred episode plus, there is no syndication. It's just a 1363 01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:47,280 Speaker 1: one time air on a streamer that has a moment 1364 01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,640 Speaker 1: and then drops to the bottom of an algorithm, So 1365 01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,800 Speaker 1: there's not even even if the precedents were there, Like 1366 01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,080 Speaker 1: the whole system that could create the trickle down is 1367 01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:59,600 Speaker 1: broken down, and that's it in a nutshell where I 1368 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,439 Speaker 1: do believe it will ultimately get reconstituted, and I think, 1369 01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:06,519 Speaker 1: to sort of cut to the bottom line, this strike 1370 01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,960 Speaker 1: will be a brick in the wall of rebuilding a 1371 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:13,719 Speaker 1: new system on the other side, which will have different players, 1372 01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:20,080 Speaker 1: because ultimately, I also don't really understand myself how once 1373 01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:23,920 Speaker 1: you have something that has been a success at the top, 1374 01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:27,559 Speaker 1: whether if you had a hit movie or a hit show, 1375 01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,639 Speaker 1: you know it would live on where it would be. Oh, 1376 01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,360 Speaker 1: you could see it in an airplane, you could watch 1377 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,680 Speaker 1: it on your before you eat dinner at night on 1378 01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:40,320 Speaker 1: your local channel. You could sell it overseas and people 1379 01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,720 Speaker 1: in other countries would see it. Now, once that thing 1380 01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:46,520 Speaker 1: is cycled through, it's at the bottom of the algorithm, 1381 01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:50,879 Speaker 1: not only not being seen, but not even expressing itself. 1382 01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:53,439 Speaker 1: You know, the real hits were rides at a theme 1383 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,040 Speaker 1: park and had T shirts made and all these other 1384 01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:00,599 Speaker 1: revenue streams. I don't understand a one app your business 1385 01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,040 Speaker 1: where everything just has one moment and and it's disposable 1386 01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:08,200 Speaker 1: because that is still something that costs billions and billions 1387 01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:12,920 Speaker 1: of dollars to produce. So historically the ones that you know, 1388 01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,479 Speaker 1: the hits, used to pay for all of the failure, 1389 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:18,280 Speaker 1: and it's I'm not saying it's justified, but it is 1390 01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,120 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why they always claim they weren't 1391 01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,439 Speaker 1: making money because nine of the ten failed, so they 1392 01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:25,160 Speaker 1: had to pay with the one that worked, so they 1393 01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:28,240 Speaker 1: were like, we're not making money. But I only giving 1394 01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:32,480 Speaker 1: this detail because the tapestry now of the business itself 1395 01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,120 Speaker 1: is different and it's going to be a transition that 1396 01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,040 Speaker 1: is just not it's still in that transition and it's 1397 01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,480 Speaker 1: going to take years for that to kind of reconstitute. 1398 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:43,760 Speaker 1: But this will be a brick in the wall, and 1399 01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:46,720 Speaker 1: that in a sense, it's good that both unions went out, 1400 01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:48,679 Speaker 1: Otherwise nothing would. 1401 01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:53,559 Speaker 2: Happen, right Kevin, you're the best. You stayed way longer 1402 01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:54,519 Speaker 2: than Oh my god, I. 1403 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,000 Speaker 1: Didn't even realize we were blown through it. Well hopefully, no, 1404 01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:59,880 Speaker 1: hopefully hung with it. 1405 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,960 Speaker 2: Yes you are. You are such a delight one of 1406 01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:09,000 Speaker 2: my favorite people ever, and I wish you all the 1407 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:12,120 Speaker 2: best success and for this to resolve itself in some 1408 01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:16,000 Speaker 2: way soon so everyone can get back to making making 1409 01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:16,800 Speaker 2: great television. 1410 01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,320 Speaker 1: Yes, it will. I mean there are some quiet talks 1411 01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:21,760 Speaker 1: going on now. I mean, I don't know. I think 1412 01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:25,639 Speaker 1: we're looking at the October is my gut. But maybe sooner, hopefully. 1413 01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,639 Speaker 1: And dude, there's a lot of fun. I can't believe 1414 01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,920 Speaker 1: we blew through so long. You're you're so the easiest 1415 01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:33,320 Speaker 1: guy in the world to talk to, you, great at 1416 01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,640 Speaker 1: what you do, and hitting you on a date for 1417 01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:38,639 Speaker 1: some mutually bad golf very quickly. 1418 01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:41,760 Speaker 2: All right, Okay, I love it, Kevin, Thank you so much. 1419 01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:57,160 Speaker 2: See you, buddy, Kevin, thank you so much for joining 1420 01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:01,360 Speaker 2: me today. Yes, on golf soon. But more importantly, I 1421 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:07,680 Speaker 2: appreciate your perspective on the current state of entertainment. I 1422 01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:11,400 Speaker 2: hope that our reps can have conversations that are as 1423 01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 2: honest and enlightening as the one we just had. Listeners. 1424 01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,599 Speaker 2: I'm going to be back next week as well as 1425 01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,719 Speaker 2: I always am. If you need something to do while 1426 01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:25,639 Speaker 2: you wait, you can follow rate review this podcast, or 1427 01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:27,880 Speaker 2: if you're too busy for all that, just tune in 1428 01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:40,240 Speaker 2: next week. Either way, have a great one off the 1429 01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:44,160 Speaker 2: beat is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, 1430 01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:48,400 Speaker 2: alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is 1431 01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:52,519 Speaker 2: Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris and 1432 01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:57,000 Speaker 2: Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and 1433 01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:01,479 Speaker 2: our intern is Thomas Olsen. Theme song Bubble and Squeak 1434 01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,800 Speaker 2: performed by the One and Only Creed Breath