1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: name is Nolan. 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 3: They call me Ben. 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 4: Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you argue you are here. 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 3: Guys, I was thinking today we. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 4: Start with the idea of a journey, So if any 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 4: of us are comfortable answering, what's the strangest, most dangerous 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 4: trip you've taken. 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 5: I don't think I've taken anything currently that I would 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 5: consider super strange or dangerous, but I've got one coming up, 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 5: going to the Middle East for the first time. I 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 5: life be the most far afield location with kind of 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 5: a culture that I am very very much inexperienced with, 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 5: so well, that'll probably be it. 21 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 2: I had a little bit of a weird thing when 22 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 2: exploring the West of the United States, where it's a 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: little less hospitable than a lot of other places just 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: out there by the that we visited out by the 25 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: Big Old Dam. Oh yeah, I've been out there before, 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 2: and just exploring on your own can be hazardous to 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 2: your health. 28 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, yeah, the wild is alive and human beings 29 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 4: are passengers in the wild of the globe. For some people, 30 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 4: especially thrill seekers. When you're hearing that question, your answer 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 4: might be something like cave diving, which is a crazy idea. 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 4: I don't know why people do it for fun, but 33 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 4: be safe or We talked previously on other episodes about 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 4: things like dark tourism. Dark tourism is where you will 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 4: purposely travel to potentially deadly areas like collapse states, war zones, 36 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 4: contaminated land think of you know, Chernobyl, for instance. But 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 4: for millions of people year over year, as we record 38 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 4: this evening, the most dangerous trip of their lives is 39 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 4: not consensual. They are not seeking thrills. No one's trying 40 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 4: to base jump or anything like that. They are fighting 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 4: instead to survive. So in this series, we're exploring one 42 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 4: of these areas. It's a largely lawless place where tens 43 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 4: of thousands of people are risking their lives on a 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 4: daily basis. It's a home to horror, desperation, and ambition. 45 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 4: This is the story of the Darien Gap. Here are 46 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 4: the facts. Okay, maybe will we talk about what the 47 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 4: Dairien Gap is. Maybe we can textualize it a little bit. 48 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 4: This may be familiar to some of our car stuff listeners. 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 4: You guys know about the Great Pan American Highway, right, Yeah. 50 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: That thing's incredible, incredible when it was first created, wasn't 51 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: it starting in South America moving north essentially? 52 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's depending upon whom you ask. It is 53 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 4: a roughly nineteen thousand mile network of roads, like you said, Matt, 54 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 4: starting down south in Argentina, going all the way up 55 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 4: to Alaska. The reason we say depending upon whom you 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 4: ask is because despite the length of this road, generally 57 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 4: considered to be the longest road in the entirety of 58 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 4: the planet, Uncle Sam does not officially acknowledge the highway. 59 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 4: So if you ask the US government officially, they'll tell 60 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 4: you it starts in Mexico right on the border, and 61 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 4: then it goes down to Argentina. But if you ask 62 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 4: people who drive on the road, they'll say no, it 63 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 4: goes all the way up to all the way up 64 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 4: to Alaska. A roses a rose is a rose despite 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 4: what names we may give it. 66 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's give that. Let's give that distinction, just 67 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: because if you're looking at some of the early maps, especially, 68 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: they will say things like, here are all of the 69 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: Pan American Highway connections that span through Central America, or 70 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: the ones that span through South America, or here are 71 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: the highways that span, you know, from Alaska through Canada 72 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: to the US. And I think it is those connections 73 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: that are not within the US that end up being like, 74 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: I don't know the things that the officials going, I 75 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: don't know. 76 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, they say, look, everybody has roads, all right. It's 77 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 4: a very weird policy thing. And policy can be hilarious. 78 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 4: Policy can be help helpful. Policy can also be dangerous. 79 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: We're going to take the global attitude here and confirm 80 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 4: that the Pan American Highway is again the longest contiguous 81 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 4: road on the planet or network of roads and connections. 82 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 6: Right. 83 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 4: There is only one break in this great human endeavor. 84 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 4: It is a region of dense rainforest and unforgiving mountains 85 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 4: and ismuth between they're connecting Panama and Columbia. This is 86 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 4: known as the Daryan Gap. 87 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 5: Right, And every now and again somebody pitches an idea, 88 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 5: some sort of plan to fix this inhospitable area and 89 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 5: this gap in the highway system. In nineteen sixty four, 90 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 5: fifty years after the Panama Canal first opened, some I 91 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 5: don't know, oddball wildcard mavericky types in the US and 92 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 5: Panama we talked about using three hundred and twenty five 93 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 5: nukes nuclear explosions rather to blast a. 94 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 6: Sixty mile trench through the territory. 95 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 5: That sounds like a great plan, guys, I don't know 96 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 5: about you couldn't possibly be any unforeseen after effects. 97 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 4: There's some real brainstorm energy there, agreed someone. It's four 98 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 4: thirty on a Friday, and someone says, you know what's 99 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 4: better than one canal? 100 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: You guys, what about two? And then let's blow up 101 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 3: the moon while. 102 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: We're at right. It's a crazy idea. Nuke a jungle 103 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: essentially a rainforest. 104 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: Wait what yeah, yeah, to build the canal. 105 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 4: And if you go back to the New York Times, 106 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 4: which has an excellent contemporary archive of these kind of 107 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 4: moments in history, there's an article arguing for this, and 108 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 4: they're essentially saying this plan is fine, you know, because 109 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 4: because it's still you know, the sort of a house 110 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 4: yacht Age of an Atomic Future, and they said it'll 111 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 4: be okay because the region is quote is a quote 112 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 4: from the article sparsely populated. And there's an implication here 113 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 4: shout out Dennis Reynolds, which was something like, I mean, 114 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 4: I guess there are people there, but really people, I mean, 115 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 4: do they really matter? 116 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: They really matter? Do they have a subscription to NYT? 117 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, that is the question. 118 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 5: Wow, that is very out of character for the New 119 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 5: York Times, but I guess it was a different New 120 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 5: York Time. 121 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 6: Super cool. 122 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: And just to be clear, this would be a sixty 123 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: mile trench to connect the highways even though the Panama 124 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: so after the Panama Canal has been built, all of 125 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: the rigmarole that went into doing that, Okay. 126 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: I love the word rigmarole. 127 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,239 Speaker 4: So now we can get get rid of the natural 128 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 4: world and maybe we can just build a big bridge. 129 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: We got to be honest, folks. For outsiders, this place, 130 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 4: the gap is terrified. Pull up your map of choice 131 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 4: and check it out. It is a geographic choke point. 132 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 4: It narrowly separates the Caribbean Sea from the Pacific Ocean, 133 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 4: and even without the involvement of the Pan American Highway, 134 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 4: which is sort of an entry point for this conversation 135 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 4: and this exploration, the Darien Gap would still be one 136 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 4: of the most inhospitable regions of the planet. The temperatures 137 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 4: are crazy, the biodiversity is such that there are still 138 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 4: wild animals that can get you. There are mountains, there 139 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: are imagine an unpleasant thing when you think of the 140 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 4: word deep forest or jungle. 141 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 3: It's there. It's definitely there. 142 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is huge too. It's I don't know 143 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: the way it's described. Sometimes on paper it doesn't seem 144 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: like it's that much land, but sure it is vast, 145 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: especially if you look at it from above on a map, 146 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: though the maps available to US citizens it appears at least, 147 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: are not. 148 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 3: Very high quality, not super great. 149 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 4: You will do some digging here, so don't don't rely 150 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 4: on Google Maps for this one. Go to places like 151 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 4: latitude dot t O or go to your satellite observer 152 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 4: of choice, and you'll you'll see something that's a little 153 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 4: less dare I say, sanitized, or a little more, a 154 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 4: little more in detail. And look, we got to be fair. 155 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 4: People have been living in this patch of the planet 156 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 4: since antiquity, and we've got a few funny stories or 157 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 4: tragic stories about this. They're they're kind of like ridiculous history. 158 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 4: In the days of colonial expansion, European forces, you know, 159 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 4: we're figuring out the shape of the world, and and 160 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 4: they thought, hey, look at this little ismuth, this little 161 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: connector the term would be a saddle, a continental saddle, 162 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 4: and they said, this is going to be a great 163 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 4: place to settle. This is the park place on our 164 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 4: global monopoly board. You know, it's nestled between the continents. 165 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 4: We can get to one place more easily, and then 166 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 4: we can maybe in the future we can control transit 167 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 4: and commerce through this land based checkpoint. And so the 168 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 4: Spanish founded Santa Maria la Antigua del Daren in fifteen ten, 169 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 4: which makes it one of the first European settlements on 170 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 4: the American mainland. The Vikings beat them candidly, but for 171 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 4: the Spaniards this was. 172 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 3: A big thing. 173 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 4: And I think, as we're alluding to, they quickly learned that. 174 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 4: They quickly learned what anybody learns when they're trying to 175 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 4: buy a house. 176 00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 3: Right. 177 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 4: A location on paye can look good, but it often 178 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 4: doesn't give you the full sense of a place in practice. 179 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 4: And it didn't take long for people in this new 180 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 4: community to start leaving the town because it was really 181 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 4: rough there. There was a lot of disease, there were 182 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 4: animal attacks. The locals didn't like them, and that's partially 183 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 4: the fault of the Spanish, if we're being honest. We 184 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 4: were talking a little bit off air some of the 185 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 4: folks who left this settlement from fifteen ten they went 186 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 4: on to found what we call Panama City today. 187 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,599 Speaker 5: And eventually that settlement, Santa Maria, was completely abandoned. 188 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, basically given back to both indigenous peoples 189 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: that were already hanging out there and the wild. But 190 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: a lot of those folks when they left, we were 191 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: talking about Panama City. That's not that far basically northwest, 192 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: kind of wrapping around a little bit to get to 193 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: the area where Panama City was founded, and that place 194 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: just sprung up into a place. Even now when you 195 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: go to it's a center of civilization. It's where you 196 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: hang out when you go to Panama and it's beautiful, 197 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: it's amazing. But it's just crazy to think back in 198 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: you know, fifteen ten. Then just a couple of years afterwards, 199 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: they said we're getting out of here. 200 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 4: Ooh, and they are not the they are not the 201 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 4: only Europeans to roll snake Eyes on the dice of 202 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 4: expansion here. I think that works. Snake Eyes is bad 203 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 4: in gambling. 204 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 6: I think that sometimes, right, Yeah, it depends on the game. 205 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 5: It's a gambling heist movie starring Nicholas Cage and Gary 206 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 5: Sinise as well. Okay, if you roll snake Eyes, I 207 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 5: think it's typically not good depending on the game and craps. 208 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 3: I don't know, guys, and I still don't understand craps. 209 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: I don't understand gambling. 210 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 4: But there is one more thing we have to mention, 211 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 4: which we may explore in depth in a future Ridiculous 212 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 4: History episode. Scotland. It sounds out of the blue. It's 213 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 4: a true story. We beat me here, Dylan, we the 214 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 4: not fellow conspiracy realist. The Darien Gap is part of 215 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 4: why Scotland is no longer independent, which I think a 216 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 4: lot of us didn't see that coming. 217 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 2: Like they expended too many resources trying to do stuff. 218 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 3: There, one hundred percent. 219 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 4: And I like that we're talking about resources there, Matt, 220 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 4: because we are going to We're going to explore kind 221 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 4: of resource allocation. 222 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 5: Hey, guys, I dont we take a quick pause for 223 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 5: a word from our sponsor and then jump back across 224 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 5: the gap. 225 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 6: Mind the gap, We're back. 226 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: And we've returned. Let's jump back into the story. 227 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 4: Okay, So the Spanish try, it doesn't work. They make 228 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 4: Panama City or they found Panama City, which does work. 229 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 4: Fast forward sixteen ninety eight. Scottish forces make a trading 230 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 4: colony in the Gap and it's part of something they 231 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: call the Darian Venture. This is often described as the 232 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 4: most ambitious colonial scheme attempted in all of the seventeenth century. 233 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 4: Like you were saying, they spent bundles of money on it, 234 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: I was going to say bootles, but I don't think 235 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 4: bootles is a word in this language. 236 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: Theoretically, this would be a trading post of sorts or 237 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: replace to gain resources from this area, then use ships 238 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: to get it back to Scottish mainland. 239 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 4: Yes, just so, and they originally they originally entered into 240 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 4: this with a collaborative mindset. It was like a mixtape 241 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 4: or posse track. However, their partners pulled out and Scotland 242 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: was continually pumping money, resources, blood treasure into this. More 243 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 4: and more Scottish colonists died from disease at hacks from 244 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 4: rival Spanish forces. Obviously the indigenous communities weren't vibing with them. 245 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 4: Eventually they had to give up their expansionist ambitions. 246 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: In total, we. 247 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 4: Understand they sent sixteen ships in like three waves. At 248 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 4: the end of the game, only one ship was able 249 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 4: to return to Scotland. This was such a disaster that 250 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:33,479 Speaker 4: at frankly shipwrecked the Scottish economy overall unless than yeah, yeah, 251 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 4: they were they were food bar. 252 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: Was it because they got attacked or like they just 253 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: couldn't maintain in the. 254 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 5: Area and it like it was just too inhospitable for them, right, 255 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 5: they just weren't prepared for the conditions that they met. 256 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, and transit lines or lines of communication are different there, 257 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 4: so they're getting news very very late, if at all, 258 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 4: and they kept you know, throwing money at the problem, 259 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 4: sort of like someone with a gambling problem. 260 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: Well it's kind of like how the colonies didn't work 261 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: out so great for the British Empire. 262 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: Yeah take that, guys, Yeah, oh you can't. 263 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 6: It's hard to govern from afar, you know, in those 264 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 6: days especially. 265 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 4: And so less than ten years after this disastrous ambitious attempt, 266 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 4: the financial consequences of this endeavor are part of what 267 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 4: led Scotland to sign the Treaty of Union, which leads 268 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 4: to another related allegation of conspiracy. We know that Scotland 269 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 4: is part of the United Kingdom today, and guys, do 270 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 4: you remember it wasn't that long ago when a lot 271 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 4: of our fellow Scottish conspiracy realist were writing to us 272 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 4: and saying the recent referendum for Scottish independence was rigged. 273 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, but I don't have the details there, not 274 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: at least at hand. 275 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 3: Nor I all right, well, right to the king. Just 276 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 3: get someone to text them. 277 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 6: Yes, I got his email. 278 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what's he doing. I'm sure he's not busy. 279 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 6: It's the King of England at Yahoo dot com. 280 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: Yes. 281 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 4: Throughout this entire time, before the age of colonial expansion, uh, 282 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 4: after it, and even now in modern evenings, Indigenous people 283 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 4: have lived in this area we call the Darien Gap, 284 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 4: and they watch outsiders come and go and time and 285 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 4: time again fail to tame this untamable wilderness. Pretty much 286 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 4: every outside exploratory force, uh, including would be colonizers. They 287 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 4: die of all the stuff you would you would be 288 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 4: familiar with if you ever played Oregon Trail Hunger. There's dysentery, right, 289 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 4: animal attacks, they drown, or often they simply disappear somewhere 290 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 4: out there. 291 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 5: And speaking of the indigenous tribes that hung out in 292 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 5: that region too, in particular, had the best claims to 293 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 5: the land, the Gunna and imbarra Unana people. 294 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we want to we want to give space 295 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 4: to the indigenous communities there. They were again there far 296 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 4: before the Europeans and far before the conversations we're having now. 297 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 4: But they, like any other indigenous groups, they're facing tremendous 298 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 4: challenges from the outside world in the modern day, particularly disease, 299 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 4: corruption and crime. Because the Darien Gap we've described it 300 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 4: as you know, it sounds like a terrible piece of 301 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 4: real estate. 302 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 3: Right from what we've heard so far. 303 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 4: It is a necessity for thousands and thousands of people 304 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,959 Speaker 4: to visit. And that's because if you were forced to 305 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 4: move over land from south to Central America and all 306 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 4: points north, this is the only way to get through. 307 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 4: This is the only land passage. 308 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: Yep, and even the waters around this area. So you 309 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: may be thinking, oh, okay, you can't get through on 310 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 2: the land, we'll just take a boat around this area 311 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 2: and we'll make it to Panama somewhere, or maybe all 312 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: the way to Costa Rica, which is, you know, just 313 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: on the other side. No, because those waters are fully 314 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 2: controlled by a lot of the same human beings that 315 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: are controlling the land. 316 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 4: Yes, and they have a vested interest in determining how 317 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 4: you fit into their portfolio of profit. How's that for diplomacy? Yeah, okay, 318 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 4: we're gonna look at what makes this area so dangerous 319 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 4: in detail and just a bit. But if you are 320 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 4: like us, if you live in the United States, one 321 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 4: of your first questions may plausibly be something like, well, hot, dang, guys, 322 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 4: we sent humans to outer space. We invented velcrow and automobiles, 323 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 4: you know what I mean. What's another cool invention? Tupperware? 324 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: Tupperware? 325 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, mod synthesizers. Why can't civilization, with all these innovations 326 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 4: build one measly stretch of road here as we'll find. 327 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 4: It's a great question, but the answer is kind of complex. 328 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 6: Right, We built nukes, we could use some of those. 329 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: Maybe we should just nuke every. 330 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 6: Prop I think that's a good call. 331 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: All right, Our next sponsor is dirty bombs. 332 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 5: Well, these are important questions and they have important and 333 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 5: complex answers. There are a ton of people and communities 334 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 5: who are completely against the idea of connecting the highway 335 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 5: through the Darien Gap. Indigenous groups on both sides of 336 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 5: the Panamanian Columbian border are against this kind of construction 337 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 5: for obvious reasons, as are associated governments and activist groups, 338 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 5: and of course criminals, being that this would be a 339 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 5: pretty solid area to hide away and do you know crimes. 340 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, and the reasons for so already we see there 341 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 4: are multiple what corporate America would call stakeholders they're reasoning 342 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 4: against completing this. 343 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 3: Stretch of highway. It's pretty valid. 344 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 4: The critics of construction are going to cite things like 345 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 4: protecting the rainforest. The biodiversity in this little patch is amazing, 346 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 4: and especially given these current times when the larger rainforest, 347 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 4: the Brazilian rainforest, the Amazon, is under such immediate, clear 348 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 4: and present threat, you want to save what you can. 349 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 4: And their argument is that construction is going to inevitably 350 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 4: lead to intense deforestation, is going to endanger native wildlife 351 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 4: right and in some cases this is the primary place 352 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 4: where these life forms reside. And they say, you know, 353 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 4: once damage is done, there's not political will to fix it. 354 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: Well, once any type of road, well, let's just imagine 355 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 2: a road is built there, any type of road, even 356 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: if it's a two lane highway right, one road going west, 357 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: one road going east. And once you put that in there, 358 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: what pops up? What else pops up along that road? 359 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 2: People need to get water, people need to get food. Right, 360 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: They're going to be entrepreneurial human beings that decide, hey, well, 361 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 2: we're going to figure out how to do this even 362 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: if it's not sanctioned legally right in the area, because 363 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: we know that's already happening now, even without a road. 364 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, to paraphrase Jurassic Park, profit finds a way. And yeah, 365 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 4: this gets us too. I mean, this gets us to. 366 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 3: The other thing. 367 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 4: There's a real concern about the spread of disease. And 368 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 4: at first, I'll be honest, I don't know about you guys, 369 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 4: but at first I thought this was propaganda until I 370 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 4: looked into it. The idea that one could use the 371 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 4: gap as a natural barrier against the spread of various 372 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 4: tropical diseases sounds a little politically convenient, But also it 373 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 4: turns out foot and mouth disease is a huge deal. 374 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: Despite the kind of silly name. 375 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 5: And this, yeh did, and could continue to protect livestock, 376 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 5: you know, from getting afflicted with this disease, which can 377 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 5: be devastating. 378 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 2: It is a big deal, it does. 379 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 6: You know. 380 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: The protecting livestock makes sense, right, But then trying to 381 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: use this gap as a stop gap against human born diseases, 382 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: that doesn't make much sense to me, because you know, planes, boats, Yeah. 383 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 4: You know, there are a couple of other choices. It's 384 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 4: it's it's a pickle, it's a bag of badgers, for sure. 385 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 4: We will note that neither Central America or North America 386 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 4: entire have had a significant breakout of the viral disease 387 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 4: known as foot and mouth disease since nineteen fifty four. 388 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 4: The third thing, another very valid point, is hey, let's 389 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 4: try to protect the lives and existence of indigenous communities. 390 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 4: And you don't have to look far. You'll have to 391 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 4: look far at all to find the terrifying consequences of 392 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 4: the modern world intruding upon the livelihood of an indigenous group. 393 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, deforestation, expansion of infrastructure. Often, you know, the folks 394 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 5: that were there first are the ones that kind of 395 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 5: end up holding the bag. 396 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's part of the reason why I love 397 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 4: the example of just building a simple two lane road, 398 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 4: right that will still bring with it knock on consequences 399 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 4: that are often not clear to the public until it's 400 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 4: too late to turn back. 401 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: And it's a slippery slope, right, because it would be 402 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: like a single motel gets built, right, and then oh well, 403 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: well then we need a like a supply stop. Oh 404 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: now we need a gas station. No. Now, you know, 405 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 2: it's just because. 406 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: If you give a mouse a cookie, is a great 407 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 4: is a great parable for that kind of thing, right, 408 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 4: And and this is the last one, just for some levity, 409 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 4: because we'll need it as our journey continues. 410 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 3: I had to laugh at this. 411 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 4: Uh, some of the governments in the area, Panama, Colombia, 412 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 4: some Caribbean nations as well, and of course our buddy 413 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 4: uncle Sam from earlier. Uh, they say you can't build 414 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 4: the road because you're preventing drug trafficking. You know who 415 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 4: agrees with not building the road the drug cartels that 416 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 4: run the Darien Gap. 417 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: Wait, so they're saying you can't build the road because 418 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 2: the gap is preventing trafficking. 419 00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, you know what I mean. 420 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 6: I don't know about that, guys. 421 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 3: I think it's laughable. And it's crazy. 422 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 4: I just want to commend the comedy chops of people 423 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 4: who are able to say that in public with a 424 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 4: straight face. You know what I mean, you have a 425 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 4: future in improv. 426 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 6: I mean it's an absolute haven for drug traffickers. 427 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 5: Like I was saying earlier, it's like the perfect location 428 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 5: to hide away, you know, from prying eyes doing drug 429 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 5: manufacturing and distribution. 430 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 3: Priying nice. 431 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 2: I will Devil's advocate just enough to say a highway 432 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: would make it easier, maybe, especially if you still controlled 433 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: the area. 434 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's highway with caveat right. If you still 435 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 4: control what purports to be border security and the rule 436 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 4: of law, then a highway be massive. But these guys 437 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 4: already control generals and kernels, and they're paying off the 438 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 4: right people. Let's get to it, all right, And it's 439 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 4: an excellent point. As a result of all these combined factors, 440 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 4: it does not look like any one is going to 441 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 4: build a road traversing the gap anytime soon. And yet 442 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 4: that does not stop thousands upon thousands of people from 443 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: braving the gap, sometimes without their own consent, each and 444 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: every year. So our question is why we're going to 445 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 4: pause for a word from our sponsors and then we'll 446 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 4: dive in. 447 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: And we've returned. 448 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 4: Please be well aware, yet I'm afraid the following may 449 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 4: not be appropriate for all our fellow listeners. Here's where 450 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 4: it gets crazy. The short answer for the vast majority 451 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 4: of people who are temporarily populating the gap is simply 452 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 4: this migration. According to the United Nations and estimated eight 453 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 4: hundred thousand people including children and adolescents, cross through this 454 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 4: area or attempted to do so in twenty twenty four. 455 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 4: They did so on foot. They had very little in 456 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 4: the way of access to food, water, shelter, or safety. 457 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: And that also includes a lot of women who are 458 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 2: imminently going to give birth. 459 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 5: Very yeah, yeah, And they're coming from countries like Ecuador, Brazil, Peru, Venezuela, 460 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 5: other South American countries or in the mix. But you'll 461 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 5: find folks from even Haiti or Ethiopia, or the Congo 462 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 5: Democratic Republic of the Congo, China, even Cameroon, India and 463 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 5: Pakistan again all mixed in with these South American countries. 464 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: And this is theoretically because it's easier to get into 465 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: like from those other places that would seem a bit 466 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: more far flowng to get into a South American country 467 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: and move their way towards the gap. 468 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, anticipated this. I love that we're pointing this out. 469 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 4: So think about it this way. If you're looking at 470 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 4: the map still and you're saying, hey, why would you 471 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 4: come from a place as far away as South Asia 472 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 4: or China and go this way? In the example of China, 473 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 4: I don't want to tell too many tales out of school. Here, 474 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 4: you can fly to Ecuador visa free. And once you 475 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 4: get to Ecuador, then the rule of law is a 476 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 4: little more porous, as are the borders, so it becomes 477 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 4: easier to traverse over land. Most people who have an 478 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 4: alternative way of attempting to get to the United States. 479 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 4: And again, most of these people migrating are trying to 480 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 4: get to the US. They're not trying to get to 481 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 4: Gude and stay there or something. They're trying to reach 482 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 4: Uncle Sam. And when they're doing this, they're forced to 483 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 4: travel through the gap because it's their last choice, it's 484 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 4: the one they can afford to do. Otherwise, why would 485 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 4: you not take a boat? Why would you not try 486 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 4: to get a plane? And the US Coast Guard like 487 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 4: bord of you know, Noley just mentioned Haiti Haiti. It 488 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 4: feels like you're doubling back, right, you're going south to 489 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 4: get north in some way. 490 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 6: Right an ass or out elbow situation. 491 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 4: And that's because entities like the US Coast Guard are 492 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 4: spotting and stopping boats and they've got a pretty crazy 493 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 4: track record of doing so. So your odds of getting 494 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 4: to the US are actually improved if you go out 495 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 4: of your way and go through this land route. 496 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes so much sense if you look at 497 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: the larger map, especially if you're coming in from the 498 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: Atlantic side or in the Caribbean, like, you can just 499 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: see how the routes could be easily patrolled. And then 500 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 2: Panama's cozy, you know, relationship with the US and via 501 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 2: the canal and all that stuff. You can see why 502 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: you wouldn't go straight to Panama or Costa Rica or Nicaragua, 503 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 2: even you would go the other route. 504 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 3: Or try your luck in the Gulf of America. I 505 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 3: can't remember what we're supposed to call it. 506 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 6: Only part of it. Apparently there's still a portion of 507 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 6: it that's the Gulf of Mexican. 508 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: Okay, right on everything fine. 509 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 2: Still says Gulf of Mexico. 510 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 5: You see, there's some some dude that came out and 511 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 5: was railing on Google Maps and for not correcting it yet. 512 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 5: But apparently it's also like it's not required. It's only 513 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 5: like a proposal of some kinds and they have thirty 514 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 5: five days or something to enact it or to replace 515 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 5: it on you know, government sanctioned maps and things like that. 516 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 4: Also check out our earlier episode on textbooks and maritime borders. 517 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 4: I think, I know we've discussed this, but look to 518 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 4: East Asia and see see what each different country in 519 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 4: that region decides to call the bodies of water next 520 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 4: to them spoiler. 521 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 3: They don't agree. 522 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 4: This is disturbing because a place that governments and corporations 523 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 4: for centuries have deemed an impossible HQ point or transit 524 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 4: route has become a super highway of sorts, right or 525 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 4: a big sort of a big path for people who 526 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 4: are fleeing disaster in their home communities. And the fastest 527 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 4: growing portion of these migrants, I think the one that 528 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 4: really really bothers us it's children. It's children under the 529 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 4: age of five. They're the fastest growing demographic of people 530 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 4: migrating as a last resort through the gap. 531 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 6: Wow, oh my goodness. 532 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, fifth of fifth of the at least according to 533 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 4: the official numbers, and we'll see why those are tricky. 534 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 4: Of fifth of the people migrating are children adolescents. Part 535 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 4: of the reason why the fastest growing documented demographic is 536 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 4: children under five is to that earlier point, because they're 537 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 4: expectant mothers who not infrequently will give birth in transit. 538 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think this might be a good time 539 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 5: to talk about asylum seekers versus refugees. And I know that, 540 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 5: you know, it's certainly an issue that comes up every 541 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 5: time there's a new president. If I'm not mistaken, one 542 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 5: of the executive orders that was signed on day one 543 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 5: had something to do with making it much more difficult, 544 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 5: if not completely cutting off asylum seekers essentially, I believe 545 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 5: it's shut the system down temporarily. 546 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 6: Yeah. 547 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of stuff here, as we record on Friday, 548 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 4: January twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, in the United States, 549 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 4: a lot of stuff is like a shoe hanging in 550 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 4: the balance. You know, things have been put on pause. 551 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 4: Courts are deciding what gets to be permanent. In recent decades, 552 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 4: migration has been a what we call a hot button 553 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 4: issue in the United States. Recent moves by the last 554 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 4: few presidential administrations have sought to close access to the 555 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 4: country by various means, and sometimes that means they are 556 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 4: creating new restrictions on who can get a visa, who 557 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 4: needs a visa, how long that visa applies, or they're 558 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 4: returning to older policies with higher barriers to legal entry. 559 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 4: And that's I appreciate you pointing out the concept of 560 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 4: asylum and refugee status. It's worth our time, right just 561 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 4: to break down the difference here. 562 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 5: It's something that I think I've always been a little 563 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 5: tenuous about myself, all right. 564 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 4: And the difference really depends upon where you're at. To 565 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 4: qualify in the United States for either asylum or refugee status, 566 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 4: you have to prove to Uncle Sam that you are 567 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 4: going to be persecuted or maybe even murdered based on 568 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 4: your race, religion, nationality, your political activity, or what they 569 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 4: loosely call State Department loosely calls membership in a particular 570 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 4: social group, and that's sort of their miscellaneous umbrella term, right, 571 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 4: So that can include LGBTQ, that could include an activist 572 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 4: group like a fallum gong. There's a big Vin diagram there, 573 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 4: and the big difference there is that you ask for 574 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 4: asylum when you get to the border or when you 575 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 4: are already in the country, and legally right now, again 576 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 4: a lot of things are on pause. We don't know 577 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 4: if this will be true in a few months, but legally, 578 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 4: right now, you have a year to request asylum once 579 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 4: you once you reach the United States. There are exceptions 580 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,919 Speaker 4: like Cuba, but that's that's a fine look. 581 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 5: And just to clarify what I mentioned earlier, one of 582 00:35:53,760 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 5: those executive orders indefinitely suspended the ability for individual jewels 583 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 5: to legally seek asylum. And apparently it's quite unprecedented. This 584 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 5: has been part of the United States law since the eighties. 585 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, so again it'll go to the courts, right And 586 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 4: that reminds me of another sticky wicket, the idea of 587 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 4: removing the constitutionally guaranteed concept of citizenship by birth. That's 588 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 4: going to be that's going to be an absolute mindfield. 589 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 4: To return to what we're saying, the difference with asylum 590 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 4: is and refugee status. 591 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 3: Is where you're at. 592 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 4: If you are requesting refugee status, you can do so 593 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 4: outside of the United States. You do not have to 594 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 4: be in your origin country. All you have to prove 595 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 4: is that you are unable or unwilling to return to 596 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 4: your country of origin because of those of one of 597 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 4: those five loose categories we outlined earlier. Unfortunately, as we know, 598 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 4: it's very difficult to get that kind of status asylum 599 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 4: or refugee status. And guys, I don't want to sound 600 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 4: too cynical, but from what I'm seeing, people often have 601 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 4: the highest chance of meeting success if something about their 602 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 4: country or their identity is in the news cycle, or 603 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 4: if there's a larger geopolitical move or if you know, 604 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 4: god willing, they get help from an NGO. 605 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 6: Absolutely, yeah, for sure. 606 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: Specifically I'm thinking, I'm thinking about Venezuelan refugees and you know, 607 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 2: think about the news cycle and everything that was occurring 608 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 2: in Venezuela over the past Josh, I don't even know 609 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 2: how many years at this point, but where that was 610 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: a that was a big deal to allow in a 611 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 2: lot of people from that country because of the chaos 612 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 2: that was occurring, you know, in the country, but also 613 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: in the news. 614 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 615 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the public is reacting, the politicians are reacting 616 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 4: as a result. Right, there's a there's a feedback loop 617 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 4: and now all of a sudden, until the next headline 618 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 4: breaks people care. And with that, since we're mentioning executive orders, 619 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 4: what do you think to want to get some primary 620 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 4: source on that one. 621 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's jump to the executive order that Noel mentioned, 622 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: because this just came forward on January twentieth, and we're 623 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 2: recording this on the twenty fourth, and it goes into 624 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: effect on January twenty seventh. So I mean, this is 625 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: just crazy. How fast an executive order like this can 626 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: you know, be ordered and then some action can take place. Yeah, exactly. 627 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 2: This is titled you can find it right now, realigning 628 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: the United States Refugee Admissions Program, and that is specifically 629 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 2: the US Refugee Admissions Program known as USRAP. It is hereby, 630 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 2: according to the newly inaugurated President, suspended starting January twenty seventh. 631 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 2: It says, quote, I therefore direct that entry into the 632 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 2: United States of refugees under the us RAP be suspended. 633 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 6: So, like. 634 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 4: I guess, it's it's a tense time because it as 635 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 4: to go to ask to go to the courts, right, 636 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 4: It's tough. 637 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 3: People are going to fight it. 638 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 4: But the question becomes a question of as boring as 639 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 4: it is to say, it becomes a question of procedure, 640 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 4: because the minute that kicks in on the twenty seventh, 641 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 4: people or agencies aren't going to wait for the courts. 642 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 4: You know, you can't tell somebody okay, you're applying for 643 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 4: the status. Here, kick it in the lobby. You know, 644 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 4: we got we got some popular mechanics magazines from twenty twelve. 645 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 4: If you want to just scroll through those and. 646 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 6: Then we'll leaves digests. 647 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll tell you what Scotus says. 648 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: You know, you know, it really reminds me of our 649 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 2: earlier episodes where we talked about the powers that the 650 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 2: executive branch received post nine to eleven, and just this 651 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 2: concept of how you can use an executive order, the 652 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 2: way an executive order is executed, and how all of 653 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 2: that changed as power started to go away from you know, 654 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 2: Congress and the lawmakers the legislature to the presidential seat. 655 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 4: Yes, the problem with well, this is a non American perspective, 656 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 4: but I've heard it more than once. The problem with 657 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 4: all three branches of the United States government. We're not 658 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 4: counting the media just yet, but they are the fourth estate. 659 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,760 Speaker 4: The issue there is that all three of those groups 660 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 4: are expansionist, inherently power begets power, and power like seeking 661 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 4: out more power. 662 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: And they're supposed to all say, hey, we got enough 663 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 2: power each We're cool. 664 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, this checks. 665 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: Supposed to work. 666 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know who even balances a checkbook these days, right, 667 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 4: So everybody's just everybody's just going ham on their thing. 668 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 3: We are going to make this a two parter. Before 669 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 3: we do. 670 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 4: I believe there is one one concept that we need 671 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 4: to put in mind here as we get closer to 672 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 4: traveling the gap, and it is this. You have to 673 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 4: note that there are differing administrations and different branches of 674 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 4: government that have contradictory policies on the concept of immigration. 675 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 4: But at the same time, if one is being intellectually honest, 676 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 4: we must admit that these crackdowns go across the political 677 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 4: and ideological board. The recent Biden administration did something that 678 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 4: Gollum from Tolkien would call trixie. They spent a lot 679 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 4: of time not super duper in the headlines, not talking 680 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 4: to the US public. They would go to governments Mexico, 681 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 4: Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras like you know, Ecuador, places that 682 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 4: were associated with this, with this swell in migration, and 683 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 4: they would say, hey, guys, you're in our backyard. We 684 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 4: need you to change the laws. 685 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 3: We don't. 686 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 4: We're not going to necessarily change our stuff. We need 687 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 4: you to do it. And this is meant to prevent 688 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 4: migration from Brazil, Colombia, Cuba, Ecuador, Haiti, Venezuela, of course. 689 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 4: And this is where we get too. Folks like Yale Shatcher, 690 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 4: who is a director for the Americas in Europe at 691 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 4: Refugees International. Guy knows what he's talking about. He was 692 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 4: speaking with the Progressive Magazine in twenty twenty two and 693 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,479 Speaker 4: he says, when I've talked to the Biden administration about 694 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 4: the pressure they're putting on these adjacent countries, he says, 695 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 4: what's a little frustrating is they typically say, these are 696 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 4: not our policies, these are the policies of other governments. 697 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 5: Well, sure, it's like a buffer kind of right, it's 698 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 5: a bait and switch totally. 699 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 2: Well, in all of those countries we talk talked about 700 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 2: there again, going back to Venezuela, Haiti, Ecuador, Cuba, Columbia, 701 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 2: these are places that are experiencing tremendous changes, right, detrimental 702 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 2: changes due to often activities of criminals, of people who 703 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 2: are on the other side of the law, people who 704 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 2: are seeking to overthrow governments. So there are a lot 705 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 2: of citizens attempting to go other places. And it is 706 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 2: such a your tricksy is such a good way to 707 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 2: describe it. 708 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,439 Speaker 4: Then well it's I mean, okay to micro to take 709 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 4: it microcosmic, and I appreciate that, Matt, to take up 710 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 4: micro cosmic. If you have kids, or if you've interacted 711 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 4: parent family kid groups, then you may be encountered at 712 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 4: some point a parent or an authority figure who sort 713 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 4: of forces a decision on a kid and then wants 714 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 4: the kid to pretend like it was their decision. And 715 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 4: that's sort of what do you Yeah, that's sort of 716 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,280 Speaker 4: what the US is doing. They're saying, Oh, oh gosh, 717 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 4: oh geez, guys, it's not us, it's these other folks. 718 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 4: You know, these are sovereign nations. It's their decision. They're 719 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 4: doing what they want and it just happens to be 720 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 4: exactly what we told them to do. 721 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 2: And also, everybody, just stay where you are, is what 722 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 2: they're saying. 723 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 724 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, And let's let's also point out, because I know 725 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 4: politics can be very sensitive any time, but especially these days. 726 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 4: These policy changes did not begin with the Biden administration. 727 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 4: They began during the Obama administration. 728 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 5: Yep, how easily folks forget some of the nefarious things 729 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 5: that the Obama administration was responsible for. 730 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, it just it goes back to that. It 731 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 2: makes me feel things differently, guys. We've mentioned it before 732 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 2: on the show, just this concept of the United States 733 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 2: having opening arms and saying, give us your tired report, 734 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 2: come to us, come to us. We have opportunity. But really, 735 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 2: even then, way before then, they're just saying we need 736 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 2: cheap labor. Give us your cheap labor because we have 737 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 2: industry and we need human bodies to grow at. 738 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 6: It masquerading as the American dream. 739 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, not what you say, but how you say it. Yeah, 740 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 4: since we're quoting poetry there, it's pretty awesome poetry. By 741 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 4: the way, check out that Ma Lazarus poem. It is 742 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 4: worth your time. We've got to say this, these are 743 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,800 Speaker 4: hidden hand policies. The US administrations were not being entirely 744 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,240 Speaker 4: transparent with the US public and indeed with the global public. 745 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,359 Speaker 4: So Dylan, if we can can we get a little wompwomp, 746 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 4: because they earned it. 747 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 3: It's that terrific there it is. 748 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 4: And look when these we'll call them hidden hand policies. 749 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 4: When they were enacted, they did not stop what they 750 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 4: were purporting to stop, Just like Nixon and the War 751 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 4: on drugs or the War on crime. They didn't prevent 752 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 4: migration from other countries. Instead, they shifted it. They shifted 753 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 4: the means of migration to other roots. No one solved 754 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 4: the problem, They just moved. 755 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:13,439 Speaker 6: It a little sleight of hand there. 756 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 5: This is why you'll find various experts and analysts who 757 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 5: argue that the US has for years not been addressing 758 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 5: migration as an issue, but simply kind of kicking the 759 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 5: can further down the road, effectively pushing their own border 760 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:28,760 Speaker 5: further south. 761 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 6: Yeah. 762 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, think of it like a house on fire. We 763 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 4: all know that cutesy meme with the dog saying this 764 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 4: is fine, fine, good. Yeah, you find a house on fire, 765 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 4: and instead of putting out the fire, the people in power, 766 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 4: for a panoply of reasons on all sides of political aisles, 767 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,400 Speaker 4: they effectively just moved the fire to a different house 768 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 4: in a different neighborhood and said, yeah, okay, all good, 769 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,359 Speaker 4: vote for us again. But people were still burning as 770 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 4: a result. Is that too hyperbolic? 771 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 6: I don't think so. 772 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to figure out how you move that 773 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 2: fire without putting it out. 774 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:12,879 Speaker 4: I know, right, is the technology there? So our next 775 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 4: question is going to be why Darien Gap. We've shared 776 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 4: a lot of context and history in this, but this 777 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,439 Speaker 4: is clearly going to be a series, so we're going 778 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 4: to pause it here and we hope you tune in 779 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 4: for our very next episode, which will be which will 780 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 4: be traveling into the Gap. In the meantime, thank you 781 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 4: so much for tuning in, folks. We hope this message 782 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 4: finds you well and safe. In amid grand consensual adventure. 783 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,799 Speaker 4: We want to hear your thoughts. Have you traversed the 784 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 4: Gap or do you know anyone who has done so? Like, 785 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,240 Speaker 4: what do you wish more people understood about the current 786 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 4: state of migration today, not just in the West, but 787 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 4: in the world over all. Tell us your thoughts. We're 788 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 4: here with you and we can't wait to hear from you. 789 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 4: You can find us via email. You can call us 790 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 4: on a telephonic device. You can even hit up the 791 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 4: internets and talk to us on those lines. 792 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:14,359 Speaker 6: Boy can you ever? 793 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,359 Speaker 5: You can find us at the handle conspiracy stuff, where 794 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where 795 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,800 Speaker 5: it gets crazy, on YouTube, where we have oodles of 796 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 5: video content for you to enjoy, and on ACFKA, Twitter, 797 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 5: on Instagram and TikTok. However, we are conspiracy stuff show, 798 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 5: and we're also human people that you can find separately. 799 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 5: I am at how now Noel Brown on Instagram, Ben Bolin, 800 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 5: how about you, sir? 801 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 3: Should one choose? 802 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 4: You can find accounts calling themselves at Ben Bullen wherever 803 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 4: you find things that have an AT in the front 804 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 4: of them. 805 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 5: Glad you locked that down, buddy, WHOA. 806 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 2: My name is Matt Frederick, spelled just like Kevin Frederick. 807 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 6: You know who that is. I'm sure I don't know 808 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 6: who Kevin Frederick is. 809 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 2: Oh, he's a very very funny comedian. 810 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 6: Okay, well I'll check him out. 811 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me there. We do have a 812 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 2: phone number. It is one eight three three std WYTK. 813 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 2: When you call in, you've got three minutes to leave 814 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 2: a voicemail. Within that voicemail, please give yourself a cool 815 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 2: nickname and let us know if we can use your 816 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 2: name and message on the air. If you've got more 817 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 2: to say than can fit in three minutes, why not 818 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 2: instead send us a good old fashioned email. 819 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 4: We are the entities who read every piece of correspondence 820 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,879 Speaker 4: we receive and love to hear from you. We can 821 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,839 Speaker 4: all see this, we can all respond. Thank you for 822 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 4: the very nice letter from a philosophy grad student who 823 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 4: complimented us on a video we made a while ago, 824 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 4: which was frankly harrowing. We want to read your suggestions 825 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,799 Speaker 4: for future episodes. We want to read your responses. We 826 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 4: want to see pictures of your pets. Tell us about 827 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 4: your adventures. Tell us if we can share your name. 828 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,279 Speaker 4: If you want a model, we're super down with that. 829 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 4: If you prefer anonymity, but have something your fellow listeners 830 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 4: need to learn, we've got your six as well. Join 831 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 4: us out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 832 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production 833 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 834 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.