WEBVTT - This Present Moment: Philosophy & Neuroscience 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:14.880 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.400 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.800 we're back for part two of our discussion of this 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.120 present moment, the now, and we're trying to get inside 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:26.000 the now. So in our last episode we talked some 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:28.360 about the physics of now, but the history of time 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.680 keeping and about the physical concept of now, of the present, 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.640 and whether there is such a thing as now. Now. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:40.360 We're going to keep doing this, probably accidentally several time 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:44.760 and now all the time, but physicists in general would 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.320 probably say that there is no such thing as now 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.400 from a universal point of view, that relativity shows us 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.280 that there isn't simultaneity across the universe, and there's no 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:02.000 external objective way to to sort synchronize events into and 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:06.800 now in the timeline of the universe right and and similarly, 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:10.760 you can't say I'm gonna do x uh eight now's 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.800 from right now. It just doesn't work. Yeah, there's no 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.559 apparent unit of now in in physical time keeping either. 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.200 But physics aside, we still do have this profound sense 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.040 of the present. I mean there's a reason these concepts 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.240 appear in our language. Why do we have a word 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:27.920 for now? Why do we have a word for the 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.640 present if there isn't something relevant going on there? So 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.880 this time we wanted to explore the philosophy of the present, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.640 the philosophy of now, and the psychology and neuroscience of now. 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.440 What's going on in our minds when we perceive a 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.920 present moment, when we think about what's happening right now? 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.800 You know, I know I've mentioned New age and spiritual 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.960 author Eckart Tootle on the show before and how I 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:56.080 found some of his ideas concerning mindfulness rather helpful. Uh, 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.960 And what his central thesis is that the present is 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.760 is all we have and this too, being part of 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.160 time is an illusion. Oh great, so we've got nothing, Well, 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:08.800 you've got, but there's a lot to be had and nothing. 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.120 Here's here's a quote from totally. He says, quote time 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.200 isn't precious at all because it is an illusion. What 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.799 you perceive as precious is not time. But the one 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.120 point that is out of time the now. And I 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.000 really like that the idea that maybe we shouldn't think 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.000 of now as a point within time, but a point 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.160 outside of time. Yeah, I kind of like that too. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.919 I think it might be easy for, you know, some 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.240 kind of hard science minded people to think of that 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.480 as like, oh, that's just new age nonsense, that doesn't 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.280 mean anything. I think that kind of does mean something. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.840 I mean, think about your experience of time. What do 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:53.120 you have the power to act on in your own experience? Like, 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.720 what point of time do you have the power to 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.720 do something about. You can't really do anything about the 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.760 past past, because it's already happened. You can remember it, 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.520 but you can't change it except in your memory by 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.520 distorting it. And don't underestimate the power of that. No, 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.480 that can happen, but you can't actually change what happened 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.840 in reality. You can change your memory, but the past 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.440 is gone. You can't really change the future because it's 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.160 not here yet. You don't have access to it. Right, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.320 So it's you know, you don't have any power over 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.440 things that are causally disconnected from you down the chain, 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.440 And in a weird way, you almost don't really have 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.639 the power to change the present either, because it's happening. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.280 That's right, it's happening right now, at least as you 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.320 sense it. I mean, to whatever extent there is such 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.320 a thing as the present in our experience, it's what 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.880 you're experiencing, not really what you're doing. So where where 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.600 do you live? Where does action happen? Where does change 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.760 take place? Yeah? Is it? To what extent? Is it? 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:52.760 Is it a conscious thing? Is it is? It? Is? 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.600 It's subconscious? Is it a series of subconscious processes that 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.000 are going on? Are we all as as our friend, uh, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.000 Scott Baker who put it, Are we all just slaves 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.080 to the darkness that comes before and therefore there's no 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:09.400 there's no real choice or or or agency at all. Well, 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.800 I'd say that I think our Scott Baker and Eckhart 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.520 total are on exactly the same page here that it's 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.360 just a question of whether you make it sound positive 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.520 or make it sound negative. I never thought of that before. Now, 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.159 wouldn't you kind of agree? Yeah? Yeah, I think there's 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.520 a valid point. Yeah, Uh, totally is just totally is 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.560 selling a a more positive vision of what the world 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.360 can be, um and uh and Baker baman not. That's 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.120 not to say that Baker doesn't have some optimistic ideas 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:39.680 in mind, but he has a much darker vision of 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.880 of of reality of course, and this we're already getting 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.760 into the realm of philosophy, right, and there is a 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.320 heck of a lot of philosophy of time out there. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.640 Oh yes, yes, yeah, I mean the nature of the 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.880 present moment is it's tied up with our experience of reality. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.840 So it is of course the domain of philosophy. It's 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.280 one of the most argued about topics in all the philosophy. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.360 You have multiple different schools of thought that weigh in 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.640 on the nature of now and time and the place 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.839 of time, of now in time, and we could we 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.800 could podcast until the end of time about just the 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.920 various approaches to this. Yeah. I would say one reason 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.880 that philosophy of time is so popular is because it's 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.039 so closely related to the philosophy of the perception of 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.599 free will. Um. This came up actually just a minute ago, 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.400 and what I was talking about comparing you know, our 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.320 Scott Baker and Eckartley. In both cases, I think they 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.720 might be add I don't want to speak too much 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.839 for totally, but I think in both cases it sounds 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.920 like they're advocating a universe in which we just kind 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.479 of accept that we are not necessarily the causal agents 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.960 ourselves that bring about change. That we have the experience, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.400 you know, sort of the sensation of being behind our 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.600 own actions. But you can't get behind the behind the actions. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.960 You know that that you as you are acting now 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.880 or a product of things that came before, and though 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.640 those consequences that came before, we'll have consequences that echo 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.120 into the future. But you don't necessarily have free will 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.919 in the classical sense under this understanding of time, because 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.200 where would the free will take place? What would happen? 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.520 What changes in the now? Alright, So so let's just 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.040 roll through some of the broad categories of philosophy of 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.080 time and the now, uh, and and again again. Each 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.360 of these is a topic that we could easily do 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.679 an entire podcast episode on and and maybe very well 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.240 returned to in the future. So first up, we have 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.760 to touch on fatalism. My favorite. This is the notion 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.560 to him that the future is unavoidable. With enough data, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.000 or perhaps a robust enough simulation, you could accurately predict 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.520 all future events. What's more, you wouldn't be able to 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.760 avoid those events. The future is not open, but rit 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.880 closed in inexorable, and this entails a good bit more 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.400 than the present, but we'll see how it all ties in. Shortly, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.400 I would say that this point of view and my 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.679 experience is more popular with physicist than it is with philosophers, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.360 because a lot of philosophers, I think, are are caught 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.279 up in the idea of explaining agency, like they're really 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.840 trying to find free will and agency and our actions. 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.600 But you know, physicists just say, well, look at what 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.120 the math says. It looks. You know, every indication from 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.840 our mathematical model of the universe is that past and 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.480 present and future they're all just part of the same block. 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.160 And that's a block of the universe that exists. So 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.720 what how how could you change it? In what sense 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:32.880 would you be altering the future? Up next, we have 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.120 a reductionism with respect to time. So the idea here 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.160 is that time does not exist independently of the events 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.240 that occur in time. When we talk about time, we're 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:46.000 talking about temporal relations among things and events. And this 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:50.160 was an argument of Aristotle and many others. So where 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:52.080 do you think this would fit into our idea of 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.520 modern physics? It seems like modern physics except for the 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.280 people who don't believe in time like you know, Julian 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.960 Barber and all those. Most modern physicists would probably not 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.320 agree with this, would you say, because spacetime is spacetime? Yeah, yeah, 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.440 I would think so. Up next, we have platonism, as 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.280 in Plato with respect to time, Plato, Newton, and others. 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.480 They counter reductionism with respect to time. The general ideas 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.240 there with the idea that time is the independent container 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.280 in which all else is stored. Okay, so this sounds 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.320 a little bit more like the spacetime idea, like spacetime 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:31.840 could exist without the objects in it. Maybe. Yeah. Now 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:33.640 this next one is a doozy and it takes us 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.000 all the way up to Uh. This is mc taggart's argument, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:42.160 which he made in his work The Unreality of Time. J. N. E. 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.440 McTaggart argued that there is no such thing as time. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.319 He argued that there are two ways to order time, 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.120 A series in which we measure everything by its relation 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.959 to the present, and B series, in which we measure 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.120 things by the relationship between two moments in time. Each 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.320 one comes with it share of complications and Nictaggart believes 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.079 that time containing both A and B series is not real, 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.480 but other thinkers have come along to accept either A 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.440 or B rather than reject time itself. So this is 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.360 sort of asking the question of whether time actually flows, like, 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.960 is there such a thing as the present? Is there 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.160 happening in the universe? And if things really do happen, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.760 that would seem to be the A series, Right. If 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.040 if there's a present moment moving along through the history 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.640 of the universe, that that's the A series, and the 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.679 B series would be that time is just a It's 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.679 just a measurement between change events, right, So that the 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.520 subset here people who latch onto A or B A 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.360 theory is that is that A series is all there 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:45.520 is and anything that looks like B is really A. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.000 In other words, time passes yet a past a present 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.679 in the future. This is also referred to as the 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:56.160 tensed view of time. And you have B theory, which 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.000 this say is B is all there is, anything that 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.480 looks like A is actually be and time time does 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.320 not pass the tense less theory of right. You know, 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:05.400 we talked about this, and I think maybe we should 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.839 come back in the future outside of this discussion of 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.920 the present moment and now to do a whole episode 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.680 on the idea that time doesn't exist, because I think 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.600 this is not a majority viewpoint among physicists. You know, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.880 the majority physicists might say nothing actually happens. There is 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.280 no present moment in the universe, but there is a 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.240 time in the universe. Right. It's it's such a mind 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.920 blowing topic that we we do need more time to 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.320 consider it, and we will come back to it at 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.760 a future point in time. Right, that's when we'll discuss 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.360 that there's no such thing as time. Of course, it's 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.520 all an illusion. But yeah, so hopefully then we can 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.760 talk about Julian Barber and McTaggart and the others who 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.760 agree with them. Alright, So moving along with the sort 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.679 of broad schools of the philosophy of time, we have 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.000 a present is um. This is an a theorist approach 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.880 that states that only the present exists. Things outside of 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.960 the present. So the claw source of roads, Genghis Khan, 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.079 or the next Fast and Furious movie does not exist. 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.920 They just literally are not real until they are currently existing. Right. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.559 If it's not currently existing, it's not a thing, be 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.679 it Genghis Khan or or or a movie that is 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.920 inevitable but not yet made. So the only thing that 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.480 exists is the present moment, and the past and the 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.880 future are not real and do not exist. Uh yeah, 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.280 that seems like it would be hard to make sense 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.200 of for me, It would be hard to make sense 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.400 of that picture of the universe given um, given like 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.720 the lack of simultaneity you know, across the universe and 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.160 the fact that things can appear out of order to 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.040 different observers based on the speed of light and all that, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:51.440 right exactly, so, we have another another argument that might 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.520 work better with all that, and that is eternalism. This 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:58.960 is one of several non presidentism approaches, and it argues 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.960 that objects from the past and future exist. We can 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.920 call these non present objects. They exist just as much 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.199 as present objects. So the Clossus of Roads and Genghis 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.880 Khan exist just as much as you and I, even 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.600 if they are no longer present. And here's the other thing, 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.400 the inevitable next the Fast and the Furious movie is 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.080 much the same. It's as real as anything that's around 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.880 right now or existed in the past. But that's only 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.720 because it's actually going to happen. It's not like hypothetical 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.560 future things that never actually happen exist right now. Well, 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.240 that's the thing, it's ultimately hypothetical because something could occur, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.800 or a series of things that could occur that would 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.560 obviously prevent the next Fast and Furious movie from happening. 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.640 But in that case it never would have existed to 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.600 begin with. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I would say 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.520 under this model, only the future that actually happens to 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.280 come to exist exists right now. But of course we 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.400 never got another Interspace movie, we know when we never 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.760 got to explore future um miniaturized adventures inside of Martin 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.439 short stomach. Oh but we will because Hollywood will continue 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:07.840 to be out of ideas for new things, and they 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.960 will just revisit old franchises until they're plowing into like 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.000 Police Academy reboots and stuff, and they've got to get 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.679 to Interspace two before they do the Police Academy reboot. 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.640 All right, well, I look forward to Interspace too, even 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.920 if I'm ultimately disappointed at how overwhelming the c g 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.240 I is. Alright, Beyond this, we have the growing Block 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.360 Universe theory of time. This is an anti presidentism approach 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.080 in which the universe is continually getting bigger because of 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.480 all this stuff we keep adding. So we're you know, 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.360 we're front loading time with new time, new stuff, new 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.200 space time. So every second that exists, we're essentially adding 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.440 a room onto the house because there's more for the 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.880 universe to contain since it contains past and present. Okay, 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.120 and then just a one added note on time travel 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.600 that I thought was interesting. So time travel cannot happen 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.760 in an eighth theory theorist president is um because the 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.200 present is all their is, so you can't travel into 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.520 the future of the past. Uh. And of course you know, 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.840 in addition to all the backward this is an addition 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.000 to all the backward causation is impossible talk, which is 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.160 all fruit for another discussion. Yeah, well, I think backward 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.120 time travel is also impossible under b theory, right. Yeah, well, 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.280 I mean I would say that that that is my 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.520 understanding as well. But we're really overdue too for a 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.040 proper time travel discussion on this show. Yeah, well, I 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:28.520 think we should take a quick break and when we 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.600 come back, we will start to look at the psychology 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.960 and neuroscience of our experience of now, what what happens 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:39.440 to the mind on the present moment? Thank alright, we're back. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.360 So in our previous episode, we talked a little bit 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.960 about mental time travel uh in memory and how these 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.960 are core to our experience of time as flowing. We 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.920 remember what has come before, we anticipate and use mental 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.680 time travel or chronasthesia to understand what is going to happen. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.040 And then we have to wonder what what what would 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.080 it be like to be un shackled from these I 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.360 mean that's kind of cord to a lot of meditative 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.200 exercises or even the flow states that we get into 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.080 with our our work or our hobbies, like what what 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.440 can we do to cut off the default mode network 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.760 and no longer worry about the past and the future 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:20.040 and live in the quote unquote present. Well, some answers 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.200 to this question can be found in an individual known 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.880 to psychologists as Patient K. This is a Toronto resident 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.480 who suffered severe brain damage during a motorcycle accident, and 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.120 he lost his episodic memory. So it's important to note 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.840 here he can still do all the things he learned 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.960 to do prior to the accident thanks to his procedural memory. Right, so, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.280 if you lose your ability to make memories, you still 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.160 probably remember how to tie your shoes, right, you can't 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.840 remember what you had for breakfast? Right. So this guy 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.800 can speak, he can play games that he learned previously, 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.760 He can navigate his his neighborhood without becoming lost. But 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.720 he cannot remember what he did yesterday, and he cannot 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.320 acculate on what he's going to do tomorrow. He has 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.640 no autobiographical memory at all. Now, that second thing you 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.640 said is fascinating. So his ability to make memories is compromised. 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.440 And it's not just that now he can't remember what 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.880 he had for breakfast, can't remember, you know, what he 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:19.320 did yesterday. He also can't imagine what tomorrow will be like. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.520 That's fascinating to me because it means, in some sense, 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.400 our ability to remember the past is necessary for our 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.440 ability to imagine the future. That forward and backward time 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:34.040 travel are inextricably linked. Yeah, and now something's pointed out 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.800 about this patient by Dan Falk and his book In 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.760 Search of Time, The History, Physics and Philosophy of Time. 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.360 He says that patient Casey is quote completely rooted in 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.160 the present, with no ability to move backwards for forward 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.840 cognitively in time. And here's the thing too, He's completely 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.960 unaware of his condition because he has no no memory, 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.800 he cannot form new memories of explanations of what's going 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.800 on here, and uh Daniel Shackter, who who wrote the 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.480 silent to seven Sins of Memory, which we've referenced on 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.360 the show before he had He has said that the 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.919 patient Casey is quote, a shell of a person, a fragment, 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.960 but also notes that Casey rates his own personal happiness 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.800 at a level of four out of five, so he's 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.920 he's he's quite happy, He's not in a state of misery. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.199 And you have to, you know, ask to what to 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.920 what degree is he happy because he's unshackled from worrying 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.679 about the future and contemplating the future or remembering anything 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.760 in the past. Yeah, I mean that it's sort of 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.320 like asking like, would you like to be like that? 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.000 I mean, I think most people probably wouldn't, because you 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.080 would still feel that many opportunities for things that you 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.240 deeply care about in life are would be closed off 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.720 to you if you had this condition, even though the 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.240 having the condition might not be all that unpleasant in 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.520 the moment. Yeah, I mean, it comes down to that 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.119 description of a shell of a person. Would you like 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.119 to be a shell of a person who's tremendously happy 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.920 all the time? Four out of five, tremendously happy. I mean, well, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.240 I don't know what would you rate yourself, Robert, Uh, 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.720 you know what out of well? It vary, you know, 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.360 it varies from moment to moment. I guess I would 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.280 say four out of five because I wouldn't want to 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.399 say five out of five. That's that doesn't leave me 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.120 any room for improvement. You could always be happier. Yeah, 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.119 But I you know, I I hesitated to give myself 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.600 a three. It's a complex question, you know. I hate 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.120 to answer well being questions in relation to coffee because 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.199 it's such a cliche. But I know mine is in 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.560 relation to coffee. It's like when I when I have 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:33.760 had a little bit of coffee, I'm a four. But 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.320 when I've had, you know, two cups of coffee, I'm 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.280 a two. Oh, because you get you get too jittery, 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.800 and I get that, I get the fear. Yeah, it's bad. 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.200 I have I have noticed that with my own caffeine consumption, 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.320 that the rate is a little different now. In his 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.880 book book, Falk also references another individual, a San Diego 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.320 resident named ep and he has nearly a nearly identical 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.879 condition to patient Casey and Likewise, he has described as 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.960 being quote happy all the time, I'm quote and devoid 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.240 of a stream of consciousness. He is trapped into present 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:11.240 without the ability to traverse either recorded memory or simulated future. 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.720 So this seems to show the same thing that he 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:19.119 his inability to think about events in the past also 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.560 prevents him from mentally exploring future events. Um, and I 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.280 know I've seen at some point there was a case 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.880 where one of these patients was being asked, uh, what 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.639 will you do tomorrow? And his answer was whatever is 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:39.760 most beneficial. That's that's that's revealing, like in a way, 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.000 he's he's more honest about the He's more honest in 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:49.200 his answer because he's he cannot engage in mental time travel. Right. Well, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.199 if I ask you what you're gonna do tomorrow, you're 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.960 gonna kind of bluff a little bit, right, You're gonna say, well, 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.679 I'm gonna I think what I'm gonna do is I'm 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.320 gonna get up and do my normal stuff, do yoga, 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.879 have breakfast, whatever. You're kind of bluffing. You can't really 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.080 know that's what you're gonna do. You just think that's 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.640 probably what you're gonna do. Right, It's it's ultimately my answer. 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.320 It's gonna be just as inevitable as the next Fast 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.320 and Furious movie, you know. Um, But obviously many different 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.600 things could occur to to drive both of these trains 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.480 off the track. I guess the true answer would be 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.159 I'm gonna do whatever I do. Yeah. Uh, you know 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.080 I mentioned uh Eckartola already. I'm gonna come back to 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.359 him one last time in this episode because there's a 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.760 wonderful children's book that he put out with Mutt's cartoonist 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:36.320 Patrick McDonald, titled Guardians of Being. And it looks at 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.240 our pets, cats and dogs in particular, and it looks 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.480 at them as windows into the formless, into the timeless, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.200 the idea that that creatures are bound by neither past 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.080 nor present. And this enables us to better center ourselves 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.359 in the present. Uh and and and and you actually 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.520 reference this a little bit, uh in the first episode 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.119 talking about when you when you see the excitement that 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.840 your dog has for a walk, right, Well, yeah, yeah, 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.960 I mean there's there's like nothing happier in the entire 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.320 universe than Charlie about to go outside into the grass. 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:12.040 And uh, and you get the sense I mean probably 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.199 probably this is projection, but at least you get the 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.800 feeling that this is because it's all there is to 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.919 him right now. The only thing in the universe to 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.720 him is the thing he's excited about doing, and it's 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.840 he's seen all the signals it's about to happen. Like, 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.920 he's not worried about anything else. There's nothing else beyond 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:34.720 that thing. There's nothing really behind him. Is just all 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.879 about what's about to happen. Yeah, he is. He is 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:42.480 devoid or free from the very human concerns of time. 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.119