Speaker 1: On today's episode of Ticket to the Draft podcast, we
Speaker 1: got draft talk. We're back, baby, and you know we're
Speaker 1: not getting ahead of ourselves. Mana's gotta go to the super Bowl.
Speaker 1: But we are talking draft. We're talking how to evaluate prospects,
Speaker 1: super high level things you can look for at.
Speaker 2: Home right trust your eyes.
Speaker 1: We're talking NFL threshold, why those are important, and maybe
Speaker 1: most importantly, we get into the weeds on every single
Speaker 1: position and here's one or two things you can look
Speaker 1: for that are essential. It all starts right now. Welcome
Speaker 1: into the Ticket to Draft Podcast. I'm Logan Paulson here
Speaker 1: with just a guy Jason and guys.
Speaker 2: We are here. We're back. We're here to talk draft.
Speaker 1: However, we're going to kind of like chill out today
Speaker 1: specifically because we're still playing competitive football.
Speaker 2: The commanders are right, Ja.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in it. Jordan Daniels, where it is.
Speaker 1: We're making a push for the playoffs, probably super Bowl.
Speaker 1: But just know we want to kind of touch base
Speaker 1: with you, guys. Make sure you understood that we're still
Speaker 1: going to go to the Senior Bowl, We're still going
Speaker 1: to the Combine. We're still going to give you all
Speaker 1: of our kind of top flight insight on the draft.
Speaker 1: We're gonna get the heavy hitters on here, Trevor Sikama,
Speaker 1: Field Yates, some big boy kind of draft analysts on
Speaker 1: here talk about their process.
Speaker 2: That's all coming.
Speaker 1: But again, we figured we're going to start the off
Speaker 1: season when the Commanders start the off season, which hopefully
Speaker 1: is after the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we just wanted to get an episode out just
Speaker 3: let you guys know that we are coming back again
Speaker 3: this year. We put out like close to thirty podcasts
Speaker 3: last year. Going through everything through this draft process, I
Speaker 3: love it. I became a huge fan of the process,
Speaker 3: really started grinding logan. You taught me so much and
Speaker 3: maybe appreciate football so much more. It doesn't hurt that
Speaker 3: I'm lucky enough to be in an organization or a
Speaker 3: part of an organization that has Adam Peters when and
Speaker 3: Jaden Daniels coming through. So seeing like what the rookie
Speaker 3: class has done and watching their process and learning from
Speaker 3: just watching right, Like, I don't have any inside information whatsoever.
Speaker 3: I'm just watching what they're doing and it's it's crazy cool.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I want to learn how to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's funny like when the free
Speaker 1: agency process has been so successful, when the draft process
Speaker 1: has been so successful, you want to kind of kind
Speaker 1: of distill and pick things from that and say, this
Speaker 1: is why at work, this is things that we expect
Speaker 1: the team to do moving forward. And it's always fun.
Speaker 1: The more in depth each year that we get with
Speaker 1: the draft, the more you learn about the process, the
Speaker 1: more you learn about, hey, I may be missed on
Speaker 1: this evaluation, or this is why this team missed on
Speaker 1: this evaluation, talking with people, having conversations, and so it's
Speaker 1: really just a fun time of year because it's a
Speaker 1: time for every team in the NFL to get better
Speaker 1: and hopefully if they're handling the process appropriately, everyone's getting better.
Speaker 1: But every year someone screws something up, someone takes a
Speaker 1: you know, like a little bit of a swing out
Speaker 1: of fastball, and they miss it and onto the next
Speaker 1: year and they kind of have to live with those decisions,
Speaker 1: and some of them have long standing ramifications.
Speaker 3: And it's just self scouting, right, that's kind of what
Speaker 3: you're talking about. Like, for me, that's what I loved
Speaker 3: this off season of this podcast is going back looking
Speaker 3: at how I scouted things like Okay, what did I miss?
Speaker 3: Why did I miss it? Can I is that an exception?
Speaker 3: Is that a rule? And just trying to learn so
Speaker 3: I can get better at this process. And I want
Speaker 3: to say that like we had a we were very
Speaker 3: lucky in that we had a lot of fans follow
Speaker 3: this podcast, which was really humbling and awesome. I think
Speaker 3: it's a lot because of you, because you're so incredibly
Speaker 3: smart and talented. I have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 3: I'm just a guy. It's all Logan, and I just
Speaker 3: want people to know, like you need to like and
Speaker 3: subscribe this podcast because Logan is going to I mean,
Speaker 3: you get in the weeds more than I think, personally
Speaker 3: more than anybody else. I listened to all the draft podcasts.
Speaker 3: Maybe the PFF guys are right there because they they
Speaker 3: get really into it with the stats. But having a
Speaker 3: former ten year veteran of the NFL talk about what
Speaker 3: it's like to be in the NFL, how you can
Speaker 3: see maybe those traits, whether they're physical, they're mental, they're technical.
Speaker 3: I think you have a step above almost in anybody
Speaker 3: else out there, and you if you want draft content,
Speaker 3: you need to put Logan balls in on whatever podcast
Speaker 3: he's won. I recommend this one, but you need to
Speaker 3: put him in your weekly cue.
Speaker 2: Oh that's very nice for you.
Speaker 1: And again, like it's cool to have a job where
Speaker 1: I get to do with this stuff and talk talk
Speaker 1: football and talk draft and talk about my passions and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I think we should probably dig in a
Speaker 1: little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1: The first thing we want to talk about is what
Speaker 1: can we expect from the Washington Commanders. And I think
Speaker 1: this is a really good one because last year we
Speaker 1: kind of saw this road map, this model of kind
Speaker 1: of saying, hey, you know, we're going to draft good
Speaker 1: football players, but who are captains? Team leaders? Good players
Speaker 1: in college have these leadership qualities, are self starters, And
Speaker 1: I think all of those things are extremely important and
Speaker 1: I expect to see a lot of those things transfer
Speaker 1: over again. However, it's interesting to watch teams that have
Speaker 1: been part of long term building processes they still have
Speaker 1: those underlying tenants, you know, like the self starters, the
Speaker 1: the team captains. I think those are threads you'll see throughout.
Speaker 1: But I kind of wonder this year if they'll take
Speaker 1: a take some shots maybe in late rounds on guys
Speaker 1: with traits, like every once in a while you see.
Speaker 2: The Philadelphia Eagles do this.
Speaker 1: Last year, for example, they drafted Johnny Wilson, who is
Speaker 1: this you know, six seven, two hundred and forty pound
Speaker 1: wide receiver, you know, maybe not the best receiver, but
Speaker 1: has these tremendous traits. They still have their kind of model,
Speaker 1: but occasionally they'll take a flyer on someone who's exceptionally
Speaker 1: talented in a later round just to kind of give
Speaker 1: it a shot and see if it works out. I
Speaker 1: wonder if you see some of that this year coming
Speaker 1: into the Yark because again, you've kind of established the
Speaker 1: foundation with all with this first class, with this first
Speaker 1: free agency group, and I wonder if that's something we'll
Speaker 1: see moving forward.
Speaker 3: Do you how quickly do you think that teams are
Speaker 3: able to do that to like take swing from the
Speaker 3: heels in a sense, like a baseball term, just really
Speaker 3: go for the grand slam when like you use the analogy,
Speaker 3: last year, we're just trying to hit singles, ye, right,
Speaker 3: because that's what AH not a rebuild, but a recalibrate
Speaker 3: organization does. Just let's just get on base. We're a
Speaker 3: little bit and then we can start taking these big
Speaker 3: swings because we have a core in nucleus here that
Speaker 3: we believe in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's it's kind of it's managing that.
Speaker 1: So I think last year, everyone, every one of the
Speaker 1: decisions felt like we're getting on base, We're getting a
Speaker 1: connection with the athlete, we're getting connection with the organization.
Speaker 2: We're having people who are, you know, good football players.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing that sticks out to me
Speaker 1: is when I talk to people at the combine, when
Speaker 1: I talk to people are the Senior Bowl Scout specifically,
Speaker 1: they're like, you want five sure things.
Speaker 2: Quote unquote, guys you feel really good about.
Speaker 1: They fit the measurables, they their production is really good,
Speaker 1: they're good citizens, they're good people. And then you can
Speaker 1: take three guys that are maybe a little bit more risky.
Speaker 1: And that was the person I talked to was from
Speaker 1: like an established organization. I'm not going to reference the organization,
Speaker 1: but they were from a established group that the staff
Speaker 1: had been there for a long time, the coach had
Speaker 1: been there for a long time. And I think, so
Speaker 1: you're always going to want that foundational, like like get
Speaker 1: on base type of guy, but every once in a while,
Speaker 1: you can take one where you're like, I don't see
Speaker 1: exactly what this is, but I see the athlete, I
Speaker 1: see the upside, I see the work ethic, and I
Speaker 1: see he's misused or miscast in college. I'm going to
Speaker 1: take a swing at this, and I think he's going
Speaker 1: to be something really special. I think a great example
Speaker 1: of that is like yeah ya Dabi for example, for
Speaker 1: Tampa Bay, Like I remember doing his evaluation. He was
Speaker 1: playing this three four defensive end. He couldn't rush the
Speaker 1: pass or he's playing basically defensive tackle, and then somebody
Speaker 1: got it in my ear that he was going to
Speaker 1: maybe project a defensive end and you start thinking about
Speaker 1: it like that, You're like, oh my gosh, if that
Speaker 1: hits with his size, his speed, his power that he
Speaker 1: plays with, that could be a big, a huge, explosive
Speaker 1: draft pick for them. And so there's a little bit
Speaker 1: of projection there, kind of probably more than you'd be
Speaker 1: comfortable with and like a normal like get on base
Speaker 1: type of pick. And if you look at it, this
Speaker 1: last year, he was like a top four pass rusher
Speaker 1: in the NFL in terms of pressure rate. So that's
Speaker 1: one where example, you take a guy in the third
Speaker 1: round there's a little bit more risk associated with it
Speaker 1: in terms of his developmental arc, but it works out
Speaker 1: in a big way for that organization.
Speaker 3: So something that you're talking about there that I think
Speaker 3: is interesting and you don't have to be a fan
Speaker 3: of the Commanders listening to this podcast and get something
Speaker 3: out of it, because I think a lot of good
Speaker 3: organizations do this, And you reference it in the sense
Speaker 3: of like, we're not just taking sometimes a guy that's
Speaker 3: like everybody says, is good at football in college, right
Speaker 3: like we're we're looking we're looking at a specific skill set,
Speaker 3: how can it translate or a mentality and what I uh.
Speaker 3: That's one of the things that the Commanders did a
Speaker 3: lot of last year in the last draft that hit
Speaker 3: for them is they were looking for a mentality. And
Speaker 3: when you do that, sometimes you're not drafting for need.
Speaker 3: You draft this is where the best player available comes in,
Speaker 3: because an organization will sit there and they'll say, Okay,
Speaker 3: maybe this guy has a little more talent, like college
Speaker 3: stats were there he stood out, but maybe he doesn't
Speaker 3: have these intangibles quote unquote that fit within what we
Speaker 3: want of an organization, and so we'd rather take a
Speaker 3: guy with this mentality and one or two traits that
Speaker 3: we think will translate and mold them into something different
Speaker 3: than they were in college.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's exactly right, because again, you want
Speaker 1: you want the foundation, and that's something really hard is
Speaker 1: like there's players, like there's certain schools that have the reputation,
Speaker 1: Alabama being one of them of having kids that are
Speaker 1: they're they're kind of constantly chaperone, they're kind of forced
Speaker 1: to go to the workouts, they're forced to go to practice,
Speaker 1: there's someone that goes to class with them, and they're
Speaker 1: not great self starters because of the in the environment
Speaker 1: that Nick Saban has developed and cultivated there. And Nick
Speaker 1: Saban's talked about that too, right, But there are guys
Speaker 1: like to your point, that are like, Hey, I'm going
Speaker 1: to get an extra lift in, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: early to practice, I'm going to stay late so i
Speaker 1: can get my work done. And those are guys you
Speaker 1: really want to make sure you're betting on right because
Speaker 1: when you draft the player like that, with those kind
Speaker 1: of intangibles, the leadership qualities, the work ethic, they're going
Speaker 1: to continue to get better and ultimately, like the thing
Speaker 1: that's so hard about the draft and why everyone says
Speaker 1: it's a crapshoot and I'm not breaking any like revolutionary
Speaker 1: ground here. For example, is that even though you get
Speaker 1: an athlete who's very, very skilled, the game from college
Speaker 1: to the NFL is different. And we talked about that
Speaker 1: on last year's show, And so how do I get
Speaker 1: a guy that's going to develop continue to grow in
Speaker 1: this environment? And it's those intangibles that really make that go.
Speaker 1: And I think you see that with guys like Mike Sanderstill,
Speaker 1: Joshan Newton, like watched their developmental arc Jaden Daniels over
Speaker 1: the course of the year. They'd never stayed the same,
Speaker 1: they got better each and every week. We saw Mike
Speaker 1: sand Rossel get beat on this type of route, the
Speaker 1: next week he covers it up. Jade Daniels gets beat
Speaker 1: by this type of coverage. And that's again, the coaches
Speaker 1: are doing a great job supporting that athlete, but they
Speaker 1: have to have something kind of internally that motivates them
Speaker 1: to get better. And I think that's that's where like
Speaker 1: we're doing talent evaluational like on large part on our end,
Speaker 1: but they're doing scouting. And the scouting is the thing
Speaker 1: that's the different thing there because it's what type of
Speaker 1: person is he? What type of pro is he going
Speaker 1: to be? And that's where you really and one of
Speaker 1: the things that was so impressed last ye about Adam
Speaker 1: Peter is he did that I felt like so incredibly
Speaker 1: well finding a guy like Brandon Coleman who is kind
Speaker 1: of this guard tweetyer player, but looked at the measurables,
Speaker 1: looked at the athlete, talked to his coaches, and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh man, this guy could maybe be a starting left
Speaker 1: tackle the NFL. And so those are like that's where
Speaker 1: the magic sauce is made, is finding those kind of
Speaker 1: magic intangibles.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's a combination. Ultimately, when you put
Speaker 3: your quote unquote big board together at the end, who
Speaker 3: goes up at the top, Well, you want them to
Speaker 3: hit the intangibles. You want them to hit the evalue
Speaker 3: the ev ows that you do of just watching them,
Speaker 3: like the technical how they move, how their ball control,
Speaker 3: whatever that is. And then you want them to hit
Speaker 3: the things of like the combine stuff right the forty time,
Speaker 3: the bench press, like all these things is like you
Speaker 3: combine them all up, mix them all together. Do you
Speaker 3: have the perfect creative Matt and create a player in.
Speaker 1: There, absolutely, And I think that's something that is always
Speaker 1: so fun and it's so fun when you're watching, Like
Speaker 1: I consume a lot of draft content when I'm getting
Speaker 1: ready to do this show, and it's so funny to
Speaker 1: see how a good Senior Bowl or good Combine gets
Speaker 1: changes the narrative about.
Speaker 2: A player because of these.
Speaker 1: Like pre existing metrics that kind of support positional success.
Speaker 1: So that's something that's always fun to kind of keep
Speaker 1: an eye on, and something we're going to keep an
Speaker 1: eye on for sure over the course of the show.
Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna go to the Combine, gonna be
Speaker 1: the Senior Bowl, so we'll we have a front row
Speaker 1: seat to all that stuff, which is always a lot
Speaker 1: of fun and and give you the talent evaluation and
Speaker 1: how they fit in these certain boxes. But again, if
Speaker 1: you're if you're really into the draft stuff, the best
Speaker 1: draft nerds I know are always able to find out
Speaker 1: little details about the player, right, Oh, the player X
Speaker 1: is Oh he goes and does soup kitchens on the weekend,
Speaker 1: and he does all this with his free time and
Speaker 1: a good guy and study's extra and you know has
Speaker 1: dinners at his house, brings the whole old line over
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and all that stuff is the is,
Speaker 1: the is, the is the finishing on the sauce that
Speaker 1: really says this guy's going to make the jump to
Speaker 1: the next level.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they put that in like the reality of
Speaker 3: here in Washington. To me, what I remember of those
Speaker 3: two things that as I did evaluation process as we went,
Speaker 3: we didn't know was that Jaden there was talk he
Speaker 3: shows up he's a first one at LSU, right, he's
Speaker 3: the first one there. And then the VR training that
Speaker 3: they said he would do all the time using a
Speaker 3: VR headset and to learn defenses and work through that,
Speaker 3: like just taking his preparation to another level. And like
Speaker 3: we don't when you're at the combine, when you're at
Speaker 3: the Senior Bowl, you don't see those things. You can
Speaker 3: only hear those things from the janitor at Melis or
Speaker 3: whatever when you talk to them. And so what I
Speaker 3: want to ask you, though, is let's move into the
Speaker 3: evaluation part of this, because this is the time where
Speaker 3: people are really starting to get into evaluating prospects, especially
Speaker 3: fans of other teams. Not to watch the commanders. Right now,
Speaker 3: we're focused on the playoffs. But other teams, their fans
Speaker 3: are looking at the draft. They've already moved ahead. So
Speaker 3: let's talk about ways that they can evaluate players. And
Speaker 3: we're going to do that by me asking you how
Speaker 3: do you evaluate players? Because you're the expert here, so
Speaker 3: give me your high level thoughts. When you're watching a player,
Speaker 3: when you're watching a prospect, what are you looking at? First?
Speaker 3: The very first thing, The.
Speaker 2: Very first thing.
Speaker 1: I have a column in my spreadsheet, which you know
Speaker 1: that just simply says like yes or no, and it's
Speaker 1: a very binary thing. But it's like, can this person
Speaker 1: from a movement technical standpoint play at the NFL level?
Speaker 2: And that becomes somewhat.
Speaker 1: Suggestive, you know, as you go through the process, and
Speaker 1: it's suggestive based on my opinion. But basically, like when
Speaker 1: you're watching a guy. So I was watching the left
Speaker 1: tackle from Michigan, for example, and he's on nobody's radar
Speaker 1: right now, no one's talking about him. But I'm, you know,
Speaker 1: watching the running backs from Michigan, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: who's this left tackle? So I'm kind of going through
Speaker 1: his clips and I'm like, he's big, he's got a
Speaker 1: good anchor, he's got strong hands, he's got good feet,
Speaker 1: and so to me, even though no one's talking about him,
Speaker 1: he's a senior, he's a grad senior.
Speaker 2: It's like he's a yes, right.
Speaker 1: And then there's other guys on the list, Like there's
Speaker 1: a tackle from Rutgers, for example, who's big fella, and
Speaker 1: he's got a lot of hype around him, but when
Speaker 1: you watch him, he.
Speaker 2: Just doesn't move quite right.
Speaker 1: He can't set the bowl, he can't set his anchor
Speaker 1: very well. And you're like, that's a no, because that's
Speaker 1: a technical issue and an anatomical issue. Because of his
Speaker 1: length length and his torso length. They say he's never
Speaker 1: going to be able to play at the next level.
Speaker 1: And you take another example of the right tackle for
Speaker 1: Minnesota for example, and he is technically perfect, it's.
Speaker 2: Excellent to watch.
Speaker 1: He anders, sounds, had an anchor and says that to
Speaker 1: drive his feet, sink on contact, all these different things.
Speaker 1: But then you see a move in space and you're like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's athletic enough to be anything
Speaker 1: more than kind of a rotational backup. So that column
Speaker 1: is my first jumping off point.
Speaker 3: And you're saying, like you're talking about some technical things,
Speaker 3: but you're saying you just you're not dissecting it technically,
Speaker 3: you're able to call it out because you've done this, yeah,
Speaker 3: for so long. But something just looks on.
Speaker 1: It's just off, like the movement skills aren't right. They
Speaker 1: can't set a bull or like a receiver, they just
Speaker 1: look like that's a big thing that shows up. Maybe
Speaker 1: the number one thing in this column is just a
Speaker 1: lack of athleticism or a general stiffness that you just
Speaker 1: got to be aware of that. And when you're looking
Speaker 1: when you're talking about athleticism, stiffness, all these they're kind
Speaker 1: of subjective, but you know, there's certain receivers where you
Speaker 1: watch them get out of break and they kind of
Speaker 1: get stuck at the top and it's because they're too
Speaker 1: stiff in the hips. Their ankles don't bend the right way,
Speaker 1: and they get a pass broken up and you're like,
Speaker 1: that could be a fatal flaw at the next level.
Speaker 1: Or you get a big wide out they're six ' four,
Speaker 1: they're two twenty, and they can't quite run, so then
Speaker 1: you say no as a receiver, but maybe yes, it's
Speaker 1: a tight end or something like that. And I think
Speaker 1: that's where that column is and that's just the super
Speaker 1: high level stuff, right, And it does help when you're
Speaker 1: kind of distilling all this information. Like our goal, like
Speaker 1: last year we watched I want to say, two hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty five guys. This year, the goal is to
Speaker 1: watch three hundred guys. And so when you're going through
Speaker 1: three hundred athletes, you need to get your list down.
Speaker 1: I think you hear about some teams going into the
Speaker 1: draft with a draft list of fifty athletes. It's fifty
Speaker 1: guys that they are targeting in the draft. That's essentially
Speaker 1: what I'm doing with that metric is like, yes, this
Speaker 1: guy can do it, No, this guy can't do it.
Speaker 1: And as the process goes, that does change for me.
Speaker 1: But usually that I find that that first kind of
Speaker 1: knee jerk reaction is very It kind of sets the tone, right,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like and oftentimes I go back
Speaker 1: and I check that yes, no, and I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: I was right about this six months ago, and I
Speaker 1: kind of talked myself out of it because of something
Speaker 1: else than I read.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So what's the next step then?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's like kind of like a general movement assessment.
Speaker 1: And then there's also like an element of this next
Speaker 1: column in there, and this one's maybe more important is
Speaker 1: the compete toughness category, right, because what that does for
Speaker 1: me is it kind of informs.
Speaker 2: Like, hey, this athlete. It shows a.
Speaker 1: Willingness, a want to, a grit and usually not always,
Speaker 1: but usually that player is successful at the NFL level
Speaker 1: because it shows a passion and a hunger and a
Speaker 1: want to. And so what I'm talking about a great example,
Speaker 1: I've used this every year done the show, is like
Speaker 1: a receiver on a crack block.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: A receiver gets in there, he's going to crack the safety.
Speaker 1: It's a big physical play. A lot of receivers they
Speaker 1: kind of take creative angles, they kind of dodge out
Speaker 1: of it. But when you see a dude put his
Speaker 1: mouthpiece in, getting a tight split and crack that guy,
Speaker 1: crack that safety on a block, tough, really physical play.
Speaker 1: I'm like that receiver. I don't know anything about him,
Speaker 1: but I know that he loves football because that's something
Speaker 1: that the position does not want to do. They don't
Speaker 1: like that, and he's doing it at a really high level.
Speaker 1: And you look at receivers that have been successful that
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding Amina Saint Brown. That was something that
Speaker 1: I had in his avout was a yes on the
Speaker 1: toughness Jamison Williams because we're talking about Detroit, Like I
Speaker 1: remember watching He's a skinny, kind of frail guy. He
Speaker 1: played gunner on kick on punt, he was cracking on
Speaker 1: run plays, he's blocking on screens. Those things are like, man,
Speaker 1: that's the type of athlete, the competitor that I want.
Speaker 1: And I think that toughness, that competitiveness again, it informs
Speaker 1: some of the scouting stuff that we don't get and
Speaker 1: that's why it's such an important metric.
Speaker 3: So what are some things where like a general fan
Speaker 3: can just trust their eyes on they can look at
Speaker 3: it and they can say, Okay, I can see that
Speaker 3: this guy is doing this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it depends on how much football you've watched,
Speaker 1: Like we were talking about this the other day, and
Speaker 1: for me, if you've watched a lot of ball, there
Speaker 1: are certain times you're like that doesn't look right. There's
Speaker 1: something wrong, and what is what's wrong about it?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I can't really put my finger on it, but trust
Speaker 1: that initial gut reaction. So for example, like when you're
Speaker 1: watching Will Campbell, like everything technically he's the tackle from LSU.
Speaker 1: Everything technically looks great, like he's in good position, he
Speaker 1: moves well. You're like, okay, this is all good. But
Speaker 1: then you watch a couple of pass pro reps. You're like,
Speaker 1: why is this hard for him? And the thing that
Speaker 1: jumps out to me is like, hey, there's maybe a
Speaker 1: lack of length. There's maybe an issue with his ability
Speaker 1: to play tackle at the next level. Like trust those
Speaker 1: little moments where you're like, the foot speed's off, the
Speaker 1: hand placement's off, and that usually informs that yes, no, right,
Speaker 1: Just make a little note to yourself and say, hey,
Speaker 1: this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2: We're okay with that.
Speaker 3: And some of those things you may not like average
Speaker 3: you won't be able to, like, won't be able to
Speaker 3: technically see what it is, but just trust your eyes
Speaker 3: and the evaluation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, trust your eyes.
Speaker 1: And again, you depends on how much much football you watch, Like,
Speaker 1: I know you've watched a ton of football, and so
Speaker 1: there's certain things that you.
Speaker 2: See where a receiver catches.
Speaker 1: A ball and it doesn't look quite right, like why
Speaker 1: is he fighting the ball so much? Like what's going
Speaker 1: on there? Make a note of that. Trust that because
Speaker 1: again like are they a natural hands catcher, And you
Speaker 1: can get into technico he's tracking the ball wrong or
Speaker 1: a thumb should be up or his body positions like whatever.
Speaker 1: But if it looks weird, usually that's a pretty good
Speaker 1: indicator that they're not a great catcher of the fall. Now,
Speaker 1: there are exceptions like Terry McCormick Coorin kind of catches
Speaker 1: the ball awkwardly. But then that's where you go to
Speaker 1: like an underlying metric and say, oh, actually it's not
Speaker 1: problematic for him because it never drops the ball, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. So, like there are things like
Speaker 1: that where you got to kind of there are exceptions,
Speaker 1: but trust that initial first take I find.
Speaker 3: So then why does the combine matter so much?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Because they're not playing football right and they're throwing routes
Speaker 3: on air and so all these things. When the combine
Speaker 3: is a big, big, big moment in the draft process
Speaker 3: forty times arm length, right bench press. If you're able
Speaker 3: to evaluate a player like you said and just trust
Speaker 3: your eyes and be able to say, okay, something doesn't
Speaker 3: look great, how can they then go to the combine
Speaker 3: and go, Okay, we're moving you up. Even if there's
Speaker 3: something a little bit off what's happening there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So for example, like I think a really good example
Speaker 1: of this from a couple of years ago was Peter Skorronsky.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: When you watch Peter Skoronski, like, there's something about his body,
Speaker 1: how it bends, how he sinks, and you're like, he's
Speaker 1: a good football player. But everyone's saying, are you going
Speaker 1: to play tackle? Are you going to play guard? Are
Speaker 1: you going to play center?
Speaker 2: Like? What are you going to do in this space?
Speaker 1: And then when you get to the combat and you
Speaker 1: got thirty two inch arms, like, it makes me really
Speaker 1: skeptical that you're going to be able to play a
Speaker 1: tackle to the next level, Like, it just makes me
Speaker 1: skeptical because the threshold there is usually thirty four inches
Speaker 1: for arm length, right, And why is that? Because defensive
Speaker 1: ends are bigger, they're taller, they're longer. Their minimum thresholds
Speaker 1: about thirty four inches, And you want your offensive tackle
Speaker 1: to be able to reach out and to the defensive
Speaker 1: player before they can touch you. And it just helps
Speaker 1: you sink a bawl. In pass protection, it helps you
Speaker 1: kind of negotiate hand fighting, it helps you recover more.
Speaker 1: Imagine if I had, you know, like Dwan Jones, for example,
Speaker 1: from my house state a couple years. I got thirty
Speaker 1: six in charms. I've seen him in the NFL miss
Speaker 1: a punch, refit his hand because he's got an extra
Speaker 1: six inches of work here that the guy has.
Speaker 2: To throw his move.
Speaker 1: He can pull his hand back and then punch again
Speaker 1: because of that extra distance he's provided. You see it
Speaker 1: in MMA fights all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a boxer.
Speaker 2: It's one hundred percent right. So it is a it's
Speaker 2: a huge variable.
Speaker 1: For offensive lineman. And then Peter Scrans's going to be
Speaker 1: a good pro, right, but he's going to be good
Speaker 1: prot guard. So if I if I'm a team making
Speaker 1: an investment in a tackle, which will tend to be
Speaker 1: harder to find, I'm going to look for somebody who
Speaker 1: kind of has more of those measurement qualities I'm looking for.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we talked about Brandon Coleman like
Speaker 1: that was a great fine last year because I kind
Speaker 1: of had him as a guard. But then when you
Speaker 1: look at the measurements, you're like, man, athletically, this is
Speaker 1: a profile that fits a tackle. He's got thirty five
Speaker 1: inch arms, he's six y four, he's three twenty, he
Speaker 1: runs a four to nine, he's got a ten yard
Speaker 1: split that's top ten percent in the NFL. And so
Speaker 1: if I'm going to take a shot on a guy
Speaker 1: in a third round, I'm going to take that shot
Speaker 1: because he can go to tackle. If he fails at tackle,
Speaker 1: because he's got all these measurements, he easily transitions to guard.
Speaker 1: And I think that's something where that's why those measurements
Speaker 1: are so important. That receivers are another great example. There's
Speaker 1: a receiver you might love, right, He's like a nice
Speaker 1: shifty slot receiver. He's winning with explosiveness and speed, and
Speaker 1: then he goes to the combine and he jumps twenty
Speaker 1: eight inches and you're like, that's not very explosive. He
Speaker 1: has a nine foot broad that's not very explosive. He
Speaker 1: runs a four seven forty. All of a sudden, all
Speaker 1: those explosive measurements you saw on film, you have to
Speaker 1: call in a question. You have to be like, is
Speaker 1: it worth taking a risk on a guy who's not
Speaker 1: actually that explosive and fast, who's winning with explosion in speed?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: And I think that because there's so many college players, Yeah,
Speaker 3: so many teams, so many conferences that maybe this guy
Speaker 3: looks really explosives on Shilm, but it's because it's all
Speaker 3: real to everything that's going on around him. Right, Maybe
Speaker 3: the competition's not as high. He's not playing against potential
Speaker 3: NFL talent. You don't tend to see this with teams
Speaker 3: like LSU, Alabama, like all the because all these guys
Speaker 3: are going to the NFL, not all of them, but
Speaker 3: this is NFL talent that's on the field. So you
Speaker 3: get a good idea that like, Okay, well they can
Speaker 3: make the transition up. You expect them to do certain
Speaker 3: things at the combine, whereas somebody like say Quinnon Mitchell
Speaker 3: last year from a smaller school comes out and it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: he dominated his competition in college. Come to the Combine
Speaker 3: and the Senior Bowl. Go one on one with lad McConkie. Right,
Speaker 3: go to the combine. Show us what your measurements are
Speaker 3: so we don't think that our eyes are being tricked
Speaker 3: on us because we're watching everybody move slower. So when
Speaker 3: you're the when you're the fastest guy on a slow team,
Speaker 3: we want to know are you the fastest guy on
Speaker 3: a fast team?
Speaker 1: Correct, And I think it's just it just kind of
Speaker 1: gives you, like a it just gives you a better
Speaker 1: understanding of the athlete and the player and what they
Speaker 1: can and can't do.
Speaker 2: And I know, those those thresholds.
Speaker 1: Everyone says, oh, like there's exceptions, right, But there's a
Speaker 1: reason there are exceptions. It's because most of the people
Speaker 1: fall into these bikes. Like, if you were to go
Speaker 1: around NFL, arm length for tackles is a really interesting
Speaker 1: one because it's almost across the board like thirty three
Speaker 1: and a half inches and up, Like, you're never going
Speaker 1: to find a tackle with thirty two inches, Like it's
Speaker 1: just too hard with the athleticism and speed of the
Speaker 1: of the ed dressers in the NFL. Like, so if
Speaker 1: you get a guy that you really like an evaluation,
Speaker 1: but he's got thirty two inch arms, You're like, what
Speaker 1: is what is the likelihood that, even though he's a
Speaker 1: great athlete, that he's going to be super successful as
Speaker 1: a pass protector in the NFL? Probably not great, you know,
Speaker 1: So I got to kind of factor that in. Now,
Speaker 1: there's other factors, like let's say he's got tremendous foot
Speaker 1: speed or tremendous size or tremendous, you know, balance and anchor,
Speaker 1: like those are things where we get more technical on
Speaker 1: the evaluation and you say, okay, I'm comfortable with that,
Speaker 1: but oftentimes like I'm not. You know, it just depends.
Speaker 1: It depends on the guy for sure, and maybe.
Speaker 3: You're comfortable with that in a later round. So, right,
Speaker 3: that's where you start assigning the ground grades, because your
Speaker 3: first round talents generally fit check all these all these boxes,
Speaker 3: generally most of them. Where you're taking, like you said,
Speaker 3: you're taking swings at fastballs in the later rounds, you're
Speaker 3: betting on something like Okay, yeah he doesn't have this,
Speaker 3: but he has the toughness, he has to compete and
Speaker 3: he has he said, the foot speed. So we're okay
Speaker 3: with and we're taking that shot in the fourth round.
Speaker 1: And we have a plan for him, right, we have
Speaker 1: a plan for like his his trajectory in the organization.
Speaker 1: We can try and tackle, move to guard, maybe you
Speaker 1: can play center, right, all those things, and maybe we
Speaker 1: prefer him as a swing interior player. And that's there's
Speaker 1: value there too. And so that's the other thing too
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to incorporate into my draft grades this year.
Speaker 1: Is like, even though I don't see this guy could
Speaker 1: ever be like a starting caliber player, Like, there's tremendous
Speaker 1: value to like Cornelius Lucas, right, a swing tackle that
Speaker 1: can play both sides and you don't really lose a
Speaker 1: like there's not a big drop off. So there's also
Speaker 1: that like Cornelius Lucas when you look at his evaluation,
Speaker 1: long arms, big guy developed a lot in the NFL,
Speaker 1: but the foot speed is a little bit lacking. But
Speaker 1: for his role perfect right, it fits exactly what you want.
Speaker 1: He knows both spots, he covers you up in in
Speaker 1: a really nice way. So there's that element too. It's
Speaker 1: like what level of player do you expect this person
Speaker 1: to be? And for the top flight guys, the first
Speaker 1: second round guys in the NFL draft, like they should
Speaker 1: have certain qualities of this, certain of these physical traits
Speaker 1: that you're like, Okay, good lock, and that's why they're there.
Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons why they're there. In conjunction
Speaker 1: with the film they've put out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's get a little bit into the weeds list. Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go through position groups and I want
Speaker 3: you to give me one or two things that are
Speaker 3: a little more technical, a little more detailed, that I
Speaker 3: want you to kind of teach me about and be like,
Speaker 3: all right, when you watch, for example, let's start with
Speaker 3: the O line. Since we're talking about when you watch o'lignman,
Speaker 3: I want you to look at this. Here's a technical
Speaker 3: thing that you can look look at that not a
Speaker 3: lot of people pick up, but it's going to be
Speaker 3: a good evaluator to how they're going to be at
Speaker 3: the next level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is going to sound really, really nerdy.
Speaker 1: So number one thing for offensive line is foot speeds, slash,
Speaker 1: just general athleticism.
Speaker 2: That's number one thing.
Speaker 1: And that sounds crazy, But how do you track a
Speaker 1: linebacker at the second level? How do you get out
Speaker 1: on a screen? How do you pull? How do you
Speaker 1: cut off a backside three technique? Those kind of dynamic,
Speaker 1: explosive movements for the offensive line. I really value those
Speaker 1: because they show an athletic ceiling. So like Josh Shimmons
Speaker 1: for Ohio State, I've only watched half of a game
Speaker 1: that he's played in, but he is so tremendously athletic
Speaker 1: that I'm like, he's like, he might be my best
Speaker 1: tackle in the class like even though he's coming off
Speaker 1: an injury, because of the athletic movement skills. That is
Speaker 1: like maybe the number one thing, because you want your
Speaker 1: Perna Suol, you want your Trent Williams, you want your
Speaker 1: you know, Tristan Worfs. They have to have to essential
Speaker 1: to have those movement skills, right, would.
Speaker 3: You say then that the O line, you're less concerned
Speaker 3: with their technical abilities, more concerned with their raw traits
Speaker 3: because just God only made so many guys like that.
Speaker 2: That is a that is a huge element.
Speaker 1: But the next element of it is so this first
Speaker 1: thing and the second second thing are like one A,
Speaker 1: one B. So the second thing for me is core
Speaker 1: like mid section strength, so like hips adductor's strength. So
Speaker 1: when someone collisions you, what does your body do? Like
Speaker 1: there are certain guys you watch them and they just
Speaker 1: kind of crumple or their legs get out from under them,
Speaker 1: or they get elevated out of that spot. And there's
Speaker 1: other guys where their ribcage states attached to their pelvis,
Speaker 1: they lock in and they're just an excellent there's an
Speaker 1: excellent play strength there. So both of those things come together, right,
Speaker 1: So when you're looking at Tristan Wurf's he is that
Speaker 1: to a t he moves well, he's locked in his
Speaker 1: mid sex and super tag. You try to bull him,
Speaker 1: there's never like a disassociation between his hips and his
Speaker 1: upper body. It's always locked in. Trent Williams, same thing
Speaker 1: in a school, same thing. So those two things are
Speaker 1: the offensive line. If I see both of those things,
Speaker 1: I'm like, there, you are a special, special athlete at
Speaker 1: the position. And I'm like that, even if you're technically
Speaker 1: not playing very well, I'm going to take a shot
Speaker 1: on you. So like, for example, let's take Evan Neil.
Speaker 1: He had a terrible disconnection of his chest and his
Speaker 1: hips right. You bull them and he'd kind of lose
Speaker 1: it or he'd fall on the ground a lot. Bad
Speaker 1: foot speed, bad connection.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The guy who plays in Carolina now they're left tackle.
Speaker 1: I forget his name, but he had bad foot speed right.
Speaker 1: And so those are things for elite left tackles that
Speaker 1: I and right tackles that I'm like, these are the
Speaker 1: two things that I have to see.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: You can sometimes compensate with arm lane for whatever, but
Speaker 1: those are the things that if I don't see those
Speaker 1: right away, I'm kind of like, eh, Like, I don't
Speaker 1: know where you're gonna fit. Swing guy, rotational guy, maybe
Speaker 1: a three year starter at some point in a pinch.
Speaker 2: But that's what I'm looking at.
Speaker 3: Let's jump to the other side of the ball and
Speaker 3: do defensive tackles and then spin off with edges because
Speaker 3: you're a little bit different when you're trying to evaluate.
Speaker 3: So when you're looking at a d tackle, let's start
Speaker 3: there first. What do you want to see?
Speaker 1: So this is going to sound crazy, but I'm looking
Speaker 1: for athletes, and it's a different type of athlete than
Speaker 1: the offensive lineman.
Speaker 2: Right. I want a guy who's really linearly explosive. Right.
Speaker 1: You watch Mason Graham this year from Michigan. Man, he
Speaker 1: can pop you. He's got great hand usage, He's explosive
Speaker 1: from the hips. He can and take a base instead
Speaker 1: of double team. He can raise and lower his pads
Speaker 1: really well, and that's something I think is really valuable.
Speaker 1: Like his running mate, I forget number seventy eight, the
Speaker 1: defensive tackle that plays next to him, And as we go,
Speaker 1: I'll get better with the names as we get into
Speaker 1: the draft stuff more. He plays really high, kind of
Speaker 1: gets pushed off the spot. He's a good player, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't have those elite traits the the explosion the
Speaker 1: hip the hip and the sink of the hips. So
Speaker 1: those are two things with the tackles. And then I'm
Speaker 1: going to add this other one in hand usage. Right,
Speaker 1: do they use their hands well? Because those guys I
Speaker 1: find that when they can use their hands can overcome
Speaker 1: some of those athletic deficiencies.
Speaker 3: So give me an example of good hand usage. So technique.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, like for example, when you're looking for something
Speaker 1: like and you're and let's say a guy's getting a
Speaker 1: double team, right, his ability to take and put his
Speaker 1: hands directly on the best play of the guard, extend
Speaker 1: his elbows and sink his hips and stalemate the guard
Speaker 1: like that with length to then shed that block and
Speaker 1: make the tackle.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what you're looking for.
Speaker 1: That's like, if you you see that a couple of times,
Speaker 1: you see that consistency, you see that reaction, you're going
Speaker 1: to be pretty good. Like Jason last year had a
Speaker 1: lot of those right hands flash boom, we're going to
Speaker 1: pursue of the football, sink ki, all those types of
Speaker 1: things were on the table. And again that vertical penetration
Speaker 1: that explosiveness from that defensive tackle. Now, edge is a
Speaker 1: totally different ball of wax to me. You're looking for athlete, athlete, athlete,
Speaker 1: athlete and production, like that's what you're looking for. And
Speaker 1: there's certain positions that have a really high correlation here.
Speaker 1: If you test well at the combine and you had
Speaker 1: ten saxon college, you're probably going to be pretty good
Speaker 1: in the NFL, Like, you're probably gonna be pretty.
Speaker 3: What happens and we had this last year, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to say exactly who you have someone that tests
Speaker 3: off the charts, but no production.
Speaker 1: That's something that always makes me a little bit nervous, right,
Speaker 1: I think you look at there's been a couple of
Speaker 1: guys that have hit from this, like Gray up in
Speaker 1: Green Bay is that his name? The number fifty two
Speaker 1: in Green Bay was like this. There's been people that
Speaker 1: have done this over the course of the NFL, and
Speaker 1: they do find a way after like three or four
Speaker 1: years to hit, right, So there is a little bit
Speaker 1: of a own way, there's a little bit of precedent.
Speaker 1: Is it worth taking a shot on? Yes, but you
Speaker 1: have to understand that it's a developmental window. When you
Speaker 1: see the guy who's like a lot too. Last year, right,
Speaker 1: he tested fine and he was crazy productive in college,
Speaker 1: Like he will be fine. I think he had seven
Speaker 1: sacks this year. Like that was kind of right where
Speaker 1: I thought he'd be. I thought, maybe you get to ten.
Speaker 1: But there's a little bit of variance in sacks production.
Speaker 1: But that's exactly what you thought from him, right, Jared
Speaker 1: Versus is a great example. Right, I was a little
Speaker 1: bit worried about the athlete, but the production was so
Speaker 1: good his entire time at Florida State. And you're like,
Speaker 1: I should have weighed that more, probably based on his
Speaker 1: athletic profile, which is great at the combine. So with
Speaker 1: that position, to me, it's one of the easier positions
Speaker 1: because it's like athlete production, check check, you're gonna be fine, right, all.
Speaker 3: Right, let's stay on the defensive side here and go
Speaker 3: to linebacker. Probably you said last year at several times
Speaker 3: the hardest one for you to evaluate in some In
Speaker 3: some ways.
Speaker 1: It's really hard because it's multi factorial. Right, you need
Speaker 1: to have a physicality, you need to have an intelligence.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like quarterback of the defense. I know
Speaker 1: that's like probably a stereotypic answer, but It's like quarterback
Speaker 1: for the defense, right. You have to know run fits,
Speaker 1: you have to get guys lined up, you have to
Speaker 1: show an intelligence, and you have to do a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff. And so for me, the number one that's
Speaker 1: gonna sound crazy, The number one thing for linebackers.
Speaker 2: Is coverage skills.
Speaker 1: You have to be able to cover because the way
Speaker 1: the NFL game is going, because that implies movement skills. Right,
Speaker 1: So if I can match up with the tight end
Speaker 1: and cover them and man and man situations, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be on the field more. And you look at the
Speaker 1: guys who've been the best the last couple of years.
Speaker 1: Your Fred Warner's, your Luke Keikley's, your Levante David's, they
Speaker 1: all have that coverage instinct. Now if you see that instinct,
Speaker 1: that coverage ability apply to a physicality also, oh man,
Speaker 1: you got yourself one, right.
Speaker 2: And again, you kind of.
Speaker 1: Hope that because of those two traits, they have that
Speaker 1: kind of killer instinct that wishing to play the position
Speaker 1: of middle linebacker at the NFL level.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But that's a hard one for me because I don't know.
Speaker 1: I haven't sat in a meeting with them, I haven't
Speaker 1: talked with them. I don't know they're but like I
Speaker 1: love when I see a linebacker that I like that
Speaker 1: has covered a tight end. He's fit a full back
Speaker 1: or he's fit a guard, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you see you getting empty. The offense does and he
Speaker 1: makes an empty check because I'm like, oh, this guy's
Speaker 1: locked in. Not every college linebacker does that, but when
Speaker 1: you see that, that's kind of like, Oh, that's a
Speaker 1: big that's a big plus for me.
Speaker 3: What about defensive bats, Oh.
Speaker 1: My gosh, defensive backs, it's hard, man, this is this.
Speaker 1: Linebackers are the hardest, but defensive backs, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: have the most variance because they're so scheme dependent. So
Speaker 1: that was one of the things about Quinny and Mitchell
Speaker 1: that was tough because like at Toledo, like he didn't
Speaker 1: do a lot of like man coverage, a lot of
Speaker 1: zone and so when I see a cornerback, I want
Speaker 1: to see him basically play man coverage, like that's what
Speaker 1: I want to do. And it helps if you had
Speaker 1: zone instincts, but I need to see you kind of run, react,
Speaker 1: anticipate route concepts because it shows that you can do
Speaker 1: some stuff in z oonne I think a good example
Speaker 1: that was Sauce Gardner, like they had a man and
Speaker 1: man situations versus Alabama, Right, and you're like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is good, this is good.
Speaker 2: And the other thing.
Speaker 1: About corners, I need to see them tackle. I need
Speaker 1: to see them be playman coverage and be physical as
Speaker 1: all outdoors. And people are like, why are they're corners?
Speaker 1: That is the position in the NFL where you have
Speaker 1: to tackle. Every run is being forced to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've said that multiple times. You've been in offenses
Speaker 3: where they say, yeah, our job is to get the
Speaker 3: running back on your dB.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know Fred and Fred Smoot and I differ
Speaker 1: in this. He's like, I want to see him cover
Speaker 1: their coverage players, but I've seen so many guys fail
Speaker 1: because they don't have that dog, that dog and him
Speaker 1: to come up and make a tackle. And so for me,
Speaker 1: it's man coverage and can you make a tackle in
Speaker 1: the run game?
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, it's It's definitely the hardest one. But this
Speaker 3: is also why the process, like the Combine's great, right,
Speaker 3: This is why the Senior Bowl and the Shrine Bowl
Speaker 3: are good, right, because you get a player like quin Yon,
Speaker 3: who last year was a standout at the senior role
Speaker 3: because everybody wanted to see him against better competition and
Speaker 3: out of that zone. And when he was, he shined.
Speaker 3: Right then it's like, okay, that checks the box that
Speaker 3: I couldn't see on film, couldn't see in that evaluation.
Speaker 3: Now I got it here all right. So DB's have
Speaker 3: to cover the wide receivers, and it seems like there
Speaker 3: is always a ton of good wide receivers coming out
Speaker 3: every year. So what are you looking for to differentiate
Speaker 3: a top round the first round, second round wide receiver
Speaker 3: and the guys who want to take flyers on maybe
Speaker 3: later rounds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Flyers later are size speed guys for me, like take
Speaker 1: those guys later. If you're a like Slad McConkie, to me,
Speaker 1: is maybe perfect. Like last year, I remember turning on
Speaker 1: the film with Georgia and being like you will be
Speaker 1: a great NFL pro Like that was the first Like
Speaker 1: I watched five of his targets and was like, you
Speaker 1: got it? And so what is that it? It is
Speaker 1: understanding of defensive leverages. How to get to a base
Speaker 1: like double stick or release break that DB's leverage like
Speaker 1: get to where you're not supposed to be in the
Speaker 1: defensive coverage, work your stems right, vertical stem, angled stem
Speaker 1: to you to set up your route to create space
Speaker 1: for yourself, and not everyone understands it. Not everyone gets it.
Speaker 1: And when you see that, it's like it's like big
Speaker 1: flashing lights. You're like, yes, this is it, this is
Speaker 1: the one, and it's the reason you see you know,
Speaker 1: like DK metcalf kind of struggle like at times because
Speaker 1: he doesn't have that route running nuance. He's just horsepower
Speaker 1: and there's a time and place for that, right, But
Speaker 1: there's a reason there's like one Dk Metcalf right, and
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of guys like you know, Malik Neighbors
Speaker 1: or Lad McConkey or these guys that have these tremendous
Speaker 1: route running nuance to their game. And so to me,
Speaker 1: if you can run fast and you have that ability
Speaker 1: like I am your best friend as a as a guy,
Speaker 1: and obviously catching the football, if you fight the football,
Speaker 1: I'm going to really watch a lot of film on
Speaker 1: you because I want to make sure you can catch
Speaker 1: the ball.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was actually going to say that a big one.
Speaker 3: Don't underestimate it, guy catches the ball. The other one
Speaker 3: I would say is like watch the routes where they
Speaker 3: don't get the ball or not. Is he running hard?
Speaker 3: Is he trying to work to get the other guy open?
Speaker 3: Is it like if it's a run play, is he
Speaker 3: running up to try and block? Like that's going to
Speaker 3: tell you how much they're going to That's the one too.
Speaker 3: That's good competitiveness. How you talked to earlier, that's really
Speaker 3: going to play into it. Yeah, I think, all right,
Speaker 3: let's speed through these here. Running backs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, running backs are interesting to me because it's hard,
Speaker 1: like because they're usually the best football player like in
Speaker 1: high school and so they're the best one of the
Speaker 1: better football players in college meeting. They can block, they
Speaker 1: can tackle. So for me, it's like I want to
Speaker 1: see the highway speed. Stuff's speed specifically for running back
Speaker 1: and then toughness and so what is toughness expressed?
Speaker 2: As it's like do I pick up a blitz? Like?
Speaker 1: How do I finish runs? Like how do I run
Speaker 1: short yardage? Do I step out of bounds when I
Speaker 1: don't have to? Or do I finish and punish the defender?
Speaker 1: Another one for me in running backs, it's big is
Speaker 1: just vision, Like I was watching a running back, the
Speaker 1: running back from.
Speaker 2: Michigan or Edwards.
Speaker 1: And if the hole wasn't there, the run wasn't there
Speaker 1: for him, then you watch a couple other guys and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, there's a little crease here. I can
Speaker 1: put his foot in the ground and kind of sneak
Speaker 1: through here. Oh it's not blocked. Well, he's going to
Speaker 1: get skinny, cram his head in there. We've got a
Speaker 1: three yard gain on something that should have been a
Speaker 1: tackle for one, Right, how do you maximize the blocking surface?
Speaker 1: And so highway speed is obviously a big deal, right,
Speaker 1: Dereck Henry's your sake one Barcleay's Christian McCaffrey to a
Speaker 1: certain extent, right, But the vision and the toughness for
Speaker 1: a back, vision and toughness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And man, I was going to say the same thing,
Speaker 3: logan to bounce off of that. Like one of the
Speaker 3: things I try and look at is does the running
Speaker 3: back bounce too early?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Is there a hole opening up? Just be a little
Speaker 3: patient or just hit this hole hard and you got
Speaker 3: a four yard run instead of I'm trying to bounce
Speaker 3: out and now everybody's conversion on me. It's a two
Speaker 3: yard loss because I just don't want to hit that
Speaker 3: hole right now, right, Like I just don't want to
Speaker 3: dive in there. So yeah, that goes right along with it,
Speaker 3: all right, this is your favorite. You were a tight
Speaker 3: end for ten years in the NFL. What are you
Speaker 3: looking for from a tight end in college? And there
Speaker 3: are some good ones.
Speaker 1: This one's frustrating for me because it's changed a lot
Speaker 1: since I started doing this, and so now it's like
Speaker 1: it's athletes, it's measurables, like this is a defensive line
Speaker 1: type of position, and so like I had a conversation
Speaker 1: with somebody at the Combat a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: about the last twenty starting tight ends. So this was
Speaker 1: over a course, like a fifteen year period. All were
Speaker 1: like greens basically, which means they hit height, weight, speed,
Speaker 1: arm length metric all greens, right, And there's only been
Speaker 1: two starting players who have not met that metric who
Speaker 1: started over the last fifteen years.
Speaker 2: I was one of them. I started a couple of
Speaker 2: games here right.
Speaker 3: Look at you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there for that position. If you do not
Speaker 1: hit the measurables, big red flag right away, right, because
Speaker 1: what do you do? What's your role? And I think
Speaker 1: there's a couple things here, right, You're looking for two
Speaker 1: different types of players. You're looking for that you know Lovelnd,
Speaker 1: that travel Kelsey guy and catch football be a mismatch weapon.
Speaker 1: That's one skill set. You're also looking for a guy
Speaker 1: that can block in line like a John Bates, and
Speaker 1: both those things have value both teams need. Most teams
Speaker 1: in the NFL need both of those players. Obviously, the
Speaker 1: offensive line type guy, the John Baits type guy, is
Speaker 1: going to be bigger, heavier. You need to see a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of technical proficiency and a tremendous amount of
Speaker 1: grit just toughness.
Speaker 3: Do you see a combination of those often in tight
Speaker 3: end anymore where they're gonna block and they're gonna get
Speaker 3: open like how a Kelsey would or are teams out
Speaker 3: just going you know what I want? I want one
Speaker 3: that's more of a blocker, one that's more of a
Speaker 3: route runner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, yeah, you're see a little and
Speaker 1: obviously you got to do both, like I think zach Ertz,
Speaker 1: to his credit this year, has done a great job
Speaker 1: of kind of embracing the blocking role a little bit.
Speaker 1: So with like Loveland, for example, he's like six ' five,
Speaker 1: I want to say he's like two forty three. It's
Speaker 1: not a big guy, but he's tough, like he'll throw
Speaker 1: his face in there, he'll block a defensive end. You
Speaker 1: don't want that matchup all the time, but he's tough
Speaker 1: enough to get that done.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: He's physical enough to get that guy done. And then
Speaker 1: you got a guy like Warren from pen Sake. What's
Speaker 1: his first name is a ty Warn Tyler Warren Tyler Warren. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who can kind of do both. He's a little stiff
Speaker 1: in the hips and with tight ends. This is something
Speaker 1: that I have talked to probably fifteen tight end coach
Speaker 1: in the NFL. If you see stiffness in the hips
Speaker 1: or ankles, huge red flag, huge red flag for red
Speaker 1: coach for tight end coaches because they think it's indicative
Speaker 1: of injury. Now, that could be like an old wives tale,
Speaker 1: but for me, it's athlete measurables, right, college production? And
Speaker 1: then their role in your team, right, are you a blocker?
Speaker 2: Are you a pass catcher? Because what are we going
Speaker 2: to do?
Speaker 3: Yeah? All right? The last one, most important one.
Speaker 2: I was cussed because I saw this on here.
Speaker 3: Quarterback look for quarterback to be fair, commanders were not
Speaker 3: in the market quarterback. But but I will say this,
Speaker 3: every team needs depth at quarterback, and so I wouldn't
Speaker 3: be surprised if any team drafts a quarterback at some
Speaker 3: point or another. Now, this doesn't mean they'll be a
Speaker 3: starter for that, but almost every team, and quarterbacks are
Speaker 3: so expensive now, they're like, if you can get a
Speaker 3: backup quarterback when a rookie deal, that's advantageous for you.
Speaker 3: So my point, I guess is like, we're commanders. We
Speaker 3: clearly have Jade and Daniels. We are not in the
Speaker 3: market for a quarterback. But it's still important to look
Speaker 3: at these guys, especially in the later round. So what
Speaker 3: are you looking for?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one is tough because my I've grown up
Speaker 1: a lot in this category. So I kind of want
Speaker 1: to say like twelve things, but I'm trying to keep
Speaker 1: it to two. One is a consistency, right, A consistency
Speaker 1: with your footwork, a consistency with your arm mechanics. And
Speaker 1: everyone says, well, now, like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson,
Speaker 1: they're making all these off schedule throws, but when you
Speaker 1: watch them, there's a consistency with their lower body mechanics
Speaker 1: and their upper body mechanics, even when they're vacating the pocket,
Speaker 1: there's a consistency there, right, And that consistency means that
Speaker 1: I can it leads, It tends to lead to accuracy, right,
Speaker 1: and good ball placement down the field. That and then
Speaker 1: what kind of student are you? You have to be
Speaker 1: a great star student of the game. You have to
Speaker 1: constantly be learning. You have to constantly be the first one.
Speaker 1: And you have that when I hear of that about
Speaker 1: a quarterback, and most schools will kind of just volunteer
Speaker 1: that like kind of you know, because they want them
Speaker 1: to get drafted.
Speaker 2: But that thing is huge. And then the other element.
Speaker 1: Is how do you process stuff? How do you process
Speaker 1: the defense? Because it's not always a stagnant picture, and
Speaker 1: especially in the NFL, because the hashes are tighter, defenses
Speaker 1: can decide stuff longer. The windows are smaller, right, because
Speaker 1: you don't have this big vacant hash to the left
Speaker 1: of the field. I'm always like, how do you process information,
Speaker 1: consistency of mechanics, consistency of play, just in general, and
Speaker 1: then student and this, and we could I could have
Speaker 1: a list of twenty things that I'm looking at here,
Speaker 1: but those are probably a push those to the top.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean with quarterback, I feel like you're constantly
Speaker 3: looking for like, uh, like a hypocrite in a way.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is you want someone
Speaker 3: that's a huge nerd, giant nerd, loves to study, loves
Speaker 3: everything about football, can't get enough of football, but also
Speaker 3: has that dog in him. He's going to go out,
Speaker 3: he's going to take kids, he's going to step in
Speaker 3: the throads, he's going to compete, and he's going to
Speaker 3: put the team on his back, like emotionally sometimes and
Speaker 3: like you need both of those.
Speaker 2: Did you come up with that right now? Yeah? Right now?
Speaker 2: That was great? Yeah, because that's exactly what you're looking for.
Speaker 2: You're looking for.
Speaker 1: You're looking for a paradox, right, You're looking for that's
Speaker 1: better than a charismatic, dynamic leader who's also a nerd,
Speaker 1: who's also can relate to everybody on the team, but
Speaker 1: it is also a little bit of above everybody unicorns.
Speaker 1: It's a weird, it's a weird position to evaluate, and
Speaker 1: it's that one yes and no. For me, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of no's, a lot of no's, and when you
Speaker 1: find a yes, you're like, oh, oh oh, this is exciting.
Speaker 2: This is what is this? What's happ Yeah?
Speaker 3: Fred says a lot of things, but one of the
Speaker 3: things that I do like that he says often is
Speaker 3: there are nine billion people in the world and we
Speaker 3: can't find thirty two of them to play quarterback at
Speaker 3: a high level. And he's right about it. It's the
Speaker 3: unicorn that you have to fin and I guess what, We
Speaker 3: got one here and watch.
Speaker 2: Dude, how fun has this been? Time?
Speaker 3: It's been amazing.
Speaker 1: It's been fun talking on this show, take it to
Speaker 1: the draft last year and going through so much film
Speaker 1: of him and all these other guys, and to see
Speaker 1: all of those questions get answered and to see all
Speaker 1: of those things we loved about him be even better here.
Speaker 2: It was just it's just been.
Speaker 1: A tremendous journey and really cool to watch from last
Speaker 1: year's episodes all that stuff, and to be here making
Speaker 1: a push in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: It's so exciting. And yeah, so we're not going to
Speaker 3: come back until we win the Super Bowl. I think
Speaker 3: so like this is our last episode until then. But
Speaker 3: if we happen to not make it, which I think
Speaker 3: probability is low that we don't make the super Bowl.
Speaker 3: Now with Jade and Daniels on it and the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3: KP's currently wearing. But if we were to come back
Speaker 3: before the super Bowl, the Senior Bowl is a week
Speaker 3: before that. We will be in Mobile, Alabama. We will
Speaker 3: do a podcast every day after every practice of the
Speaker 3: Senior Bowl. Same thing. Once we get to the Combine,
Speaker 3: we'll break down the combine and all that, and then
Speaker 3: we'll have Draft Night for you to and we'll do something,
Speaker 3: if not weekly, regular in between those things too, leading
Speaker 3: you all the way up to their draft. So if
Speaker 3: you're a fan of the Commanders, man, just enjoy it.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, soak it in. I've been a fan
Speaker 3: for so long of this team and it feels amazing.
Speaker 3: And if you're not, you'll still get great content in
Speaker 3: this podcast, I promise you. As we move forward, we'll
Speaker 3: even talk about the top quarterbacks at some point, for like,
Speaker 3: obviously we have nothing to do with them, but they're hot,
Speaker 3: as we'll talk about them. Maybe they go to a
Speaker 3: divisional ride, right, so you'll get Logan's evaluations when these
Speaker 3: guys moving forward, Like I said, we're gonna get guys
Speaker 3: like Field Yates, Trevor Sika, m'connor, Rodgers, Matthew Berry we
Speaker 3: had on last year as well. Like, we will get
Speaker 3: these guys again. I've already reached out, some of them
Speaker 3: have already said yes, and I know the other guys will.
Speaker 3: We see them all the time at these events. So yeah,
Speaker 3: please like, subscribe, turn on net notuification. We'll be back
Speaker 3: after the host an a Lombardi Trophy in DC.
Speaker 2: Pretty sick. Mm hmmm mm hmm