1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Tonight, a Nancy Guthrie bombshell does new video reveal the 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Guthrie family knows details about the kidnappers identity. Good evening. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It 6 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 2: has been months since our mom was taken from us. 7 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: Ransome note chaos. 8 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 3: I feel like we're in this kind of back and 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: forth game of what is true and what is not. 10 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: has been months since our mom was taken from us. 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: Our family is in agony. We are in a nightmare 13 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: that will not end. Nothing about our situation has changed. 14 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: We have done our part and we will never stop 15 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: looking for her. We will always ache for her and 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: feel that hole in our hearts. The world can be 17 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 2: a cruel and unforgiving place, and I know that you 18 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: have tried to do things the right way. So I'm 19 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: asking you, begging you to do the right thing. Now, 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: make the right choice, Help us find her, tell us 21 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: where to look for her. I truly believe it is 22 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: never too late to do the right thing. Help us 23 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: bring this situation to an end for all of us. 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: No matter where we've been and what we've done, I 25 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: believe there is always a way home. Please make the 26 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: right choice. 27 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: Did you hear Savannah Guthrie's words? We have picked them apart. 28 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: She seems to be speaking directly directly to her mother, 29 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthries' kidnapper. Did you hear her say, No matter 30 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: where we've been or what we've done, there is a 31 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: way home. It's not too late to do the right thing. Translation, 32 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: you kidnapped my mother, she died, but you can still 33 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: do the right thing. Trust me. Her statements were sanctioned 34 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: by the FBI. There's really no doubt about it. We've 35 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: got an all star panel tonight. But first, let's address 36 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: that question straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons. You know him well. 37 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: He is the director of Operations at usp A nationwide 38 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: security leading a team of investigators around the world finding 39 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: and extracting missing pace people. What do you make of 40 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: what she just said? Read between the lines, it seems 41 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: to me that they mote they know more the Guthrie family. 42 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: More details about the perps identity. 43 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 44 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 5: The tone and tenor of this message is in stark 45 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 5: contrast to the previous messages that the Guthrie family, specifically 46 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 5: Savannah released previously in the investigation. And one thing that 47 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 5: I'll note is that she seems to be directing this 48 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 5: narrative to a specific person that we've done our part. Quote, 49 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 5: does that mean that some kind of ransom has been paid? 50 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 5: And one thing that I want to hide is that 51 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 5: it seems that there have been other communications. You know, 52 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 5: if you read between the lines here, it's very high 53 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 5: potential that there has been more communication between a suspected 54 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 5: perpetrator and the Guthrie family. 55 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: Straight out to Susan Hendricks, joining us investigative reporter, author 56 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: of A Down the Hill, My Descent to the Double 57 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Murder in Delphi. She has been on the Guthrie case 58 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: since the beginning. Much has been made of this being 59 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: the six month anniversary, so to speak, of Missus Guthrie's kidnapping, 60 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: But I disagree. We've had a one month, two month, 61 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: three month, four month, five month. I don't think Savannah 62 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: would speak in this manner unless she's responding to something. 63 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: I don't think that she's just speaking to avoid I 64 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: think she is reacting to something. I want to hear 65 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: your analysis, Susan Hendrix. 66 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy, it sounds definitely more personal. It sounds like 67 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 3: her family may have taken action in terms of paying 68 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: some sort of amount, saying we have done our part. 69 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: And also it feels like that she thinks who she 70 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: is speaking to has some sort of conscience. It's never 71 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: too late to do the right thing. And I go back, 72 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: that stood out to me the most, saying we have 73 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 3: done our part, and to paraphrase, now it's up to 74 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 3: you to act. We will never stop looking, saying this 75 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 3: isn't going to end. We're not just going to ignore it. 76 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: It's now your chance to do the right thing. 77 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: To Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave, much of 78 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: what she says seems very very directed. For instance, it's 79 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: almost like she's handing over a receipt. Okay, we've done 80 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: our parts. What does that mean. We've done our part? 81 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 6: Now you deliver that seems to it's very very directed. 82 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 6: As you're right in pointing out they're saying we did 83 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 6: what you asked, We've already done that. You have not 84 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 6: lived up to your end. The wording here is really 85 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 6: it's different in that you know, in previous missives it's 86 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 6: been a request would you please, would you do this? 87 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 6: Or you know? But this is a demand, Dan, and 88 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 6: see where do we look? You owe us this, We 89 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 6: did what you asked, Now tell us where our mom is. 90 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 6: It's it's consistent, yet very dirt. 91 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: Another interesting point that you just sparked in my mind, 92 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: Dave Matt is this missive is different also in the 93 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: sense that prior to now, prior to tonight, she say bring 94 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: our mom back, bring our mom back. Now she's saying, 95 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: tell us where to look for her. I find that 96 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: very very revealing. 97 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 6: I agree, Nthy. And on top of that, it's almost 98 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 6: it really seems to be directed at one person, not 99 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 6: like an entire group of people, but one person, tell 100 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 6: me where I can find my mother. And again it's 101 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 6: a demand, it's not a request. And in pointing out 102 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 6: we've done our part goes right back to we did 103 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 6: what you asked us to do you owe us tell 104 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 6: us where to find mom. 105 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: Listen to the details, the specifics of what Savannah has 106 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: just released. 107 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: I'm coming on today with a very specific message. It 108 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: has been months since our mom was taken from us. 109 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: Our family is in agony. We are in a nightmare 110 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 2: that will not end. Nothing about our situation has changed. 111 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: We have done our part, and we will never stop 112 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: looking for her. We will always ache for her and 113 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: feel that hole in our hearts. The world can be 114 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: a cruel and unforgiving place. And I know that you 115 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: have tried to do things the right way. So I'm 116 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: asking you, begging you to do the right thing. Now, 117 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: make the right choice. Help us find her, Tell us 118 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: where to look for her. I truly believe it is 119 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: never too late to do the right thing. Help us 120 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: bring this situation to an end for all of us, 121 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: no matter where we've been and what we've done, I 122 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: believe there is always a way home. Please make the 123 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: right choice. 124 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: Joining us now. Renowned psychologist, A forensic psychologist, Karen Stark, 125 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: TV radio trauma expert consultant at Karenstark dot com. Karen, 126 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: did you notice, she says, and I quote, I know 127 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: that you have tried to do things the right way. 128 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: What the perp kidnapped an eighty plus year old frail 129 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: lady who lived alone, a widow woman, took her out 130 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, probably hit her in 131 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: the face and made her bleed. She didn't have her 132 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: hearing aids. She may not have glasses, She had no 133 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: idea what was going on, couldn't hear, probably couldn't see, 134 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: and is being dragged out in her pajama's barefoot. What 135 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: Why is she saying? And I know, Savannah, she said 136 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: this for a reason. Why is she saying, I know 137 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: you've tried to do things the right way? 138 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 7: What? 139 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 8: It's very psychologically strategic, wouldn't you say, Nancy, Because what 140 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 8: she's doing is she's trying to appeal to this person, 141 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 8: whoever this person may be, and she's saying she's trying 142 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 8: to make this person feel like She's not saying, oh, 143 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 8: you know, you're great and what you did was terrific, 144 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 8: But she's giving this person a chance to take a 145 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 8: look and say, you know, I think you might have 146 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 8: a good person inside of you, that you try to 147 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 8: do the right thing, that we need you now to 148 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 8: help us. That's what's happening here. It's very strategic in 149 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 8: terms of going to that person and wanting that person 150 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 8: to come forward without accusing them. And that's the most important. 151 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 8: You don't hear the accusation how could you do this? 152 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 8: Or where hysterical? It's much more about now you do 153 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 8: the right thing. The feeling to a conscience. 154 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: Well, I think she's playing up to the kidnapper because 155 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: this guy has never done the right thing. He's despicable, 156 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: she says, if I know you have tried to do 157 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: the right thing. Why is she saying that because she 158 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: wants a response joining us now? Morgan Right, cybersecurity expert, 159 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: former detective who actually trained the FBI cart CEOCART team 160 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: on Internet investigations. He is the CEO of National Center 161 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: for Open and Unsolved Cases. Why is Savannah saying that 162 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: to the kidnapper? Directly to the kidnapper, I know you 163 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: tried to do things the right way, you. 164 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 7: Know, Nancy. Something that struck me as we were all 165 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 7: talking and listening. What has always been the trigger? The 166 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 7: trigger has been the payment of money. That's what this 167 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 7: is what this whole thing started from at the start. Right, 168 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 7: So when she says we've done our part, the one 169 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 7: hypothesis is does that mean money has been paid? Now 170 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 7: we've done our part, you need to do your part, 171 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 7: which is tell us where she's at. You know, I 172 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 7: was listening to earlier, you were right. I mean we've 173 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 7: had the one month to two months, et cetera, to 174 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 7: the six months nothing news there. But what what triggers something? 175 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 7: What's new? When you use the language we have done 176 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 7: our part, that means they've taken an action to fulfill 177 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 7: a request from the you know, the offenders. The only 178 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 7: thing that would make sense on something like that is 179 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 7: the payment of money, and I don't know that that's happened. 180 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 7: But when we look at triggers, I mean we can look. 181 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 7: I used to teach behavior analysis, I used to teach 182 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 7: interview and interrogation, and obviously words mean things. You look 183 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 7: at what does somebody say? How do they say? It's 184 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 7: like I didn't rob that bank with this guy, and 185 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 7: well maybe you rob that bank with another gun. Right, 186 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 7: words mean things. I don't want to overanalyze it, but 187 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 7: there's definitely a trigger. There's something very personal in this. 188 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 7: Where before it was generic, it was wide ranging. Now 189 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 7: this is you. Now the thing is we've done our part. 190 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 7: What does that mean? It means you fulfilled some kind 191 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 7: of implied contract. You know, that's a potential hypothesis. So, Nancy, 192 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 7: that's what I think. I think there has to have 193 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 7: been an action taken on the Guthrie family part to 194 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 7: trigger something. And now it's not about return uses. Just 195 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 7: tell us where we can find her. 196 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: I agree with you, Morgan Wright. Something has happened to 197 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: make her Savannah who I've got to tell you. Of course, 198 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: on the Today Show she seems genuine and humble. She is, 199 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: but she's also smart as a whip. Every word I 200 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: guarantee you was sanctioned by the FBI. Do you agree 201 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: with that? 202 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 7: I think hard to tell, but I would say that 203 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 7: there's obviously if influence in it. In other words, when 204 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 7: you craft messages. I go back to a friend of mine, 205 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 7: as Dave Reiker, who investigated the Green River killer, Gary Ridgeway. 206 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 7: When they put out messages to the killer, you know, 207 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 7: to the Ridgeway, they worked with the FBI specifically to 208 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 7: put language in there. When they did their whole TV 209 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 7: show thing where they talked about the case, and then 210 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 7: when Dave went into interview them at the end, there 211 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 7: were specific words. Now, I think that the FBI is 212 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 7: obviously collaborating because words can trigger emotional things. You want 213 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 7: behavior provoking things to happen. So I don't know that 214 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 7: the FBI wrote the message, but I think that is 215 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 7: it's heartfelt. So there's a lot of Savannah's content and 216 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 7: there that's her emotion writing, but I think it was 217 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 7: constructed in a framework to say, what's the objective. What 218 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 7: do we want out of this message? We want a 219 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 7: behavioral change on the person the messages going to, which 220 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 7: is we have done our part, now do yours. In 221 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 7: other words, whatever triggered this, they have fulfilled that implied contract. 222 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 7: Now it's time for them to do that. So I 223 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 7: think the FBI potent. I mean, there's there's heavy FBI 224 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 7: influence in this investigation to begin with their experts at 225 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 7: doing this. So I think their hostage of rescue people, 226 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 7: I think their behavior analysis, their BAU was helpful in 227 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 7: reviewing or crafting this message that eventually went out. 228 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: Morgan, Right, I agree with everything you just said. But 229 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: to put it more succinctly, hell would freeze over before 230 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: a lawyer as smart Savannah Guthrie would go rogue and 231 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: put out a statement that the FBI had not combed 232 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: with a fine to come right. That would be like 233 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:39,479 Speaker 1: me cross examining a neurophysicist without consulting with an expert 234 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: first right, No, would never happen. She knew what she 235 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: was doing, and that leads me to another point. Bring 236 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: up the shrink Karen stark. Listen to this, Karen. The 237 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: world can be a cruel and unforgiving place, and I 238 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: know you've tried to do things the right way. So 239 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: I'm asking you, begging you to do the right thing. Now, 240 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: what is she saying? The world can be a cruel 241 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: and unforgiving place. In other words, everybody else is three 242 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: inches up your tailpipe. They want you dead, kidnapp her 243 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: except me. I understand, and I know you've tried to 244 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: do things the right way. You've got to analyze that 245 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: from me, the world all those other people can be 246 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: cruel and unforgiving. I know you've tried to do things 247 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: the right way. 248 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 8: Yes, Nancy. It's back to that line between I want 249 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 8: to get this person to have some kind of conscience. 250 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 8: I want to say I understand you. The world is 251 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 8: so difficult, But it's also walking that very thin line 252 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 8: saying I don't approve of what you did because she 253 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 8: doesn't mention that right you didn't. Oh, I understand. You 254 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 8: must have been hurting, But the world can be cruel. 255 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 8: And now I think it's important for you to do 256 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 8: the right thing. But I understand you. I'm appealing to you. 257 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 8: This is just me and you we're having a very 258 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 8: private conversation, and I understand where you're coming from. That's 259 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 8: what it sounds like to me, a psychological connection. 260 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: You are seeing missus Guthrie in her home. This is 261 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: her bedroom from where she was kidnapped. That was on 262 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: a kind of a funny segment she did with Savannah 263 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: on the Today Show. Savannah to the effect of, I 264 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: really don't make my bed up like my mom, and 265 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: they have the mom showing how she makes a military 266 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: style you can bounce a corner off bed. That was 267 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: Savannah talking to her mom. That's from our chif friends 268 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: at the Today Show. Okay, Now, of course, once Savannah 269 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: takes the lead with the help of the FBI, I'm 270 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: sure Nanos comes out and gives a statement. 271 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 9: It's the same message we had day one. We're working 272 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 9: this as hard as we can. There's no lead too small. 273 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 9: We like Savannah today, we encourage you. If you know something, 274 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 9: you saw something, please call us. Let us know. We 275 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 9: have so much DNA to sort through, we have so 276 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 9: much in terms of video evidence to look at. So 277 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 9: I'm still positive that we're going to resolve this case. 278 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: That's reference at kVA n NBC. He says there's no 279 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: lead too small. We like Savannah today, encourage you if 280 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: you know something, saw something, please call us let us know. Okay, 281 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: you don't see Cash Betel or the FBI coming out 282 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: and making statements because they can keep their apps shut. Morgan, Right, 283 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: what is so OP as it come as it relates 284 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: to commenting on cases by the feds, You. 285 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 7: Know they're they're very good about plausible. We we can 286 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 7: either confirm or deny that an investigation is underway, things 287 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 7: like that. But the one thing you don't want to 288 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 7: do is you don't want to set the defaultse expectation 289 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 7: is that we are so close to solving this, or 290 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 7: that we are we are you know, we've got this identified, 291 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 7: or we've got that. I think a lot of times 292 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 7: I know the public and the press want information, But 293 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 7: I will tell you from my standpoint, working with the FBI, 294 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 7: before working with all the federal agencies other agencies, you 295 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 7: have to keep some information close to your vest because 296 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 7: you don't want to disclose a investigative strategy where you're going. 297 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 7: So the FBI is always usually very reticent to come 298 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 7: out and make bold statements. Now, when Cash Hotel did 299 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 7: come out, it's when they recovered the video that we're 300 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 7: seeing here. The minute they recovered that and got it 301 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 7: out there, boom, there's a there's a statement. You don't 302 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 7: want to make a statement just to make a statement, 303 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 7: because it pollutes people's memories of what happens. It pollutes 304 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 7: the connections that they might have made. So what you 305 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 7: want to do is when there's something substantive, you want 306 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 7: to come out and give that and others like we've 307 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 7: made a breakthrough, or here's an update. You know, we 308 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 7: just got to lead about this, maybe something like that. 309 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 7: I just I am not comfortable with just vomiting on 310 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 7: everybody saying, well, here's everything we got and I got 311 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 7: to come out. If the only purpose is to stay 312 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 7: in the news, you don't need to do that because 313 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 7: this case is nationally known. So there's no need to 314 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 7: always come out and do a rebuttal when Savannah puts 315 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 7: out something or somebody else puts out something. I would 316 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 7: sometimes it's best to keep things close to the vest 317 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 7: so that when you announce something, you get the impact 318 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 7: that you're looking for, which is it creates behavior changes, 319 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 7: It tells people, yeah, you're right, I've got information. I 320 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 7: need to give it. But when you just come out 321 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 7: all the time you create this, you desensitize people to 322 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 7: the importance of the case. And so it's like when 323 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 7: something comes out when I was a trouper, giving an example, 324 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 7: when I was a true we didn't always turn on 325 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 7: our I had a lifeboard, we didn't always turn it on. 326 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 7: We used a red spotlight to stop people because we 327 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 7: wanted people to understand that when they saw the red lights, 328 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 7: something was going on. But if you see them all 329 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 7: the time, you become desensitized to them. So I don't 330 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 7: know that I can give them advice, but I would 331 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 7: say that the FBI has been more circumspect on what 332 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 7: they release as opposed to the Sheriff's office. 333 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: One thing I did learn, and this is out to 334 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My 335 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon's star of a hit podcast Body Bags 336 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: with Joe Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is 337 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: a death investigator with over ten thousand death scenes of 338 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: all sorts under his belt. Okay, Joseph Scott Morgan joining us. 339 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: He did say one thing which could be valuable, but 340 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: it's not really anything. We didn't know, but he's bringing 341 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: it to the forefront that the DNA is still being 342 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: worked on and is at multiple labs, he said, all 343 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: over the country. Thanks to his bumbling, he first sent 344 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: it to their pet lab that they've got a money 345 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: contract with instead of sending it straight to the FEDS 346 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: or to somewhere like offrom Libs or was it Aura 347 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: lab that we kind of figured out that they have 348 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: sent the DNA to. It's one of that lab's specialties. Regardless, 349 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: we now know because of his slip of the tongue 350 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: that the DNA is in multiple labs all across the country, 351 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: says Nanos, which leads me to this. If the kidnapper 352 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: here's Savannah's plea directs them to the location, can we 353 00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: get at this stage, remember she's buried with nature. Can 354 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: we get his DNA off? Missus Guthrie's remains be. 355 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 4: Very difficult at this point in time, depended upon if 356 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: she's still clad and anything that he may have had contact, 357 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 4: and those surfaces would have to be protected. Nancy Licious, 358 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 4: think about a shirt, a pair of pants, a pair 359 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 4: of socks, whatever the case might be. Those areas would 360 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 4: in fact have to be protected to the degree that 361 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: this fragile biological evidence could not be compromised. Now, the 362 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 4: tools that we have are very very sensitive, but when 363 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 4: you're talking about the environment in which she has allegedly 364 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 4: been placed in, Remember we did an entire piece about 365 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 4: probability or possibility where she may have been deposited. This 366 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 4: is a very harsh environment, Nancy, very very harsh. And 367 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 4: this is a long period of time that we're looking at. 368 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 4: I mean, other things have happened over the years where 369 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 4: we have been able to find that's nest sold in 370 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 4: specific areas, but the odds at this point are very 371 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 4: very difficult. I think. So where the sourcing of this 372 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 4: DNA he is alluding to, what's the font from which 373 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 4: that springs? Well, you know, for me, it's it comes 374 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 4: down specifically to that bedroom, any points of entry where 375 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 4: you know you're thinking about potential for touch DNA, And 376 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 4: you know, one of the problems is, and you know, 377 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 4: I hate to revisit the past like this, is that 378 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 4: that scene was early on was compromised. So they're probably 379 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 4: having to sift through a myriad of samples that were 380 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 4: initially unidentified to rule out everybody else that may have 381 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 4: been in that space. For a period of time, and 382 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 4: this has really almost exponentially when you look at the 383 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 4: numbers of DNA, it's exponentially created a bigger problem here. So, 384 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 4: you know, this is kind of troubling to me as well. 385 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 4: And I'll be brief the idea that it would be 386 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 4: at multiple, multiple providers at this point in time. This 387 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: is an evidentiary trail that we're talking about. So has 388 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 4: this been farmed out to multiple labs? And how do 389 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 4: you keep track of that? That was one of the 390 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 4: big questions Earlier. You had alluded to this group that 391 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 4: they were affiliated with down in Florida. Remember they had 392 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 4: to kind of pull back from that. Then some of 393 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 4: this got sent to the FBI, the. 394 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: DNA International, DNA International I believe, DNA International Labs something 395 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: like that go ahead. 396 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so the idea that it's going out to 397 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 4: multiple locations is troubling to me from an evidentiary standpoint. 398 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 4: Chain of custody and accountability, I think is what it 399 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 4: really comes down to in this particular case. You know, 400 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 4: how much time do you need in order to parse 401 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 4: through all of this? Don't think that you need this 402 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 4: much time. So it goes back to me, it seems 403 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 4: as though this is a confused mess. 404 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: I recall the name. It's Aura Genetics. They're a molecular 405 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: molecular diagnostics, high complexity clinical lab that provides advanced DNA 406 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: and are in a sequencing. We know the DNA is there, 407 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: we know that it was sent to DNA Laboratories International 408 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: in Florida. We think that Quantico is working on it. 409 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: That's three different and isolated labs, each with a unique specialty. 410 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: So what about this? To Karen Stark, I'm certainly not 411 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: arguing with Joe Scott Morgan's analysis. But Karen, how often 412 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: have we seen killers, kidnappers treat a body post mortem 413 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: with a certain degree of care? In other words, I 414 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: don't think they would dump Missus Guthrie on the side 415 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: of the road. I don't think that they would bury 416 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: her in dirt where dirt would come in contact with 417 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: her face and her body. Why. I don't know. Why 418 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: does a dog turn walk around three times before it 419 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: sits down? Age old question? But it does. I'm telling you, 420 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: I think if Missus Guthrie passed away and they disposed 421 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: of her body, I think they wrapped it in something, 422 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: be it a sheet, a blanket, a tarp, a body bag, 423 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: A something I do not think and I can't tell 424 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: you why they would just put her in a shallow 425 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: and put dirt on her face. I just why, Well. 426 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 8: You know, part of what comes to me, and I 427 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 8: wonder if other people are thinking the same thing, Nancy, 428 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 8: is that I don't believe they went in there at 429 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 8: all with the intention to create harm or kill this person. 430 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 8: Not that they were careful or they cared, because obviously 431 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 8: they went in, but I think that this, in my opinion, 432 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 8: this was a surprise that they didn't anticipate this happening. 433 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 8: And I would agree with you that there's a certain 434 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 8: amount of caution carefulness about the body because we think 435 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 8: about you know, sometimes you see a killing and the 436 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 8: killer has put a pillow over a face or a blanket, 437 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 8: another way to hide a person, like they don't want 438 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 8: the person to look out and see what happened, or 439 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 8: they want them to be comfortable, so they put a 440 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 8: pillow under their head. And I believe that this is 441 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 8: that same kind of situation, that they don't see her, 442 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 8: just as nobody they understand that this is a woman 443 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 8: who was an older woman. I don't think they meant 444 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 8: to kill her. That's just my opinion, and they will 445 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 8: treat her as kindly as they are able to, or whoever. 446 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: They are, which leads me back to Joseph Scott Morgan 447 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: Joe Scott. If this body was, as I suspect, wrapped 448 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: in something, and I can't tell you why, Maybe it's 449 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: years of experience. I think she was wrapped in something 450 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: before she was buried. Would that change your analysis on 451 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: whether DNA from the PERP can be found? 452 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, potentially, And it all depends on what this medium 453 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 4: is that she would be wrapped in. Of course, you know, 454 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 4: are we talking about plastic or are we talking about burlap? 455 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 4: Are we talking about a sheet that they may have 456 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 4: had access to, because you know, when you begin to 457 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 4: look at the note, she was taken somewhere obviously, and 458 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 4: you know, if you refer back to one of the 459 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 4: notes that says she perished early on which to me 460 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 4: is a fascinating terminology. Use of terminology there, and what 461 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 4: would they do well, I don't know if there's so 462 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 4: much honoring the dead by doing that as they are 463 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 4: trying to. I refer to it as cocooning, cocooning of 464 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 4: the remains to prevent any further spillage perhaps, and you 465 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 4: would if you can find a vehicle, perhaps you might 466 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 4: see some transfer in there as well, because you know, 467 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 4: we already know she sustained blunt force trauma. Nancy. I mean, 468 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 4: I believe that a lot of other people believe that 469 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 4: you just that's evidenced on the front the front area. 470 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 4: You know, this this idea of perhaps respecting her in life, 471 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 4: I think kind of goes out the window. You know, 472 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 4: when you feel as though that you need to use 473 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 4: blunt force in order to subdue this poor woman who's 474 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 4: got a pacemaker and she's got you know, hypertension and 475 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 4: all these other things. You know, how what do you 476 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 4: need to do to get her to comply. Well, you'll 477 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 4: go to the point, well, you'll pop her in the face, 478 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 4: which I think this was probably a noso fairenex thing, 479 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 4: the nose, the mouth, that's where things looking at the 480 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 4: blood deposition. So yeah, you know, I suppose that if 481 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 4: she is cocoon to the point where she is sealed 482 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 4: to a certain degree, you could find some transfer there. 483 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 4: But again I go back to this harsh environment. If 484 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 4: we are to believe what has been alluded to the 485 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 4: location of where she may have been deposited. It's going 486 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 4: to be very, very difficult. 487 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, lightning round. Isn't it true that DNA can 488 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: be extracted fifty sixty years after the event from a body. 489 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 4: From a body? 490 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: Yes, okay. And if she is wrapped in any way, 491 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: regardless of the intentions of the kidnapper to rap, why 492 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: he did it right, if her body was wrapped, And 493 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: I will bet you, I will bet you tonight that 494 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: her body was in fact wrapped. How do I don't 495 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: know how I know, but I know, well, it's key. 496 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: There could be DNA on her body and it can 497 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: be analyzed. 498 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,239 Speaker 4: Right, but earlier, going back to your comment just a 499 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 4: second ago, you said from within the body and within 500 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 4: the body's protected bone, teeth, this sort of thing. It's 501 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 4: different than surface deposition of DNA. And so that's why 502 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 4: I think that this is a very delicate situation. Wherever 503 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 4: they find her, look, I hope that it happens. I 504 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 4: hope that there's something there. 505 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: That shot you're seeing missus Guffrey's blood on the front 506 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: porch is from our friends at Fox News. And now 507 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: we finally know the full wording in the ransom note. 508 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 10: Listen Hello, Savannah, we have your mother Nancy. She is 509 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 10: safe but scared. She will be held for ransom and 510 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 10: once payment is received, she will be released unharmed. We 511 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 10: will be holding her for a maximum of seven days. 512 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: From our friends at Crime Junkie straight out to Susan 513 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: Hendrix joining us, investigative journalist and author. Who is that 514 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: and why is she reading the ransom note out loud? 515 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 3: That is Brianna who got the ransom note. It was 516 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 3: given to her. She's reading it out loud so we 517 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: can analyze exactly what it means. There were two ransom 518 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 3: notes that the family believes were real, and they're very 519 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 3: different from each other. The one that we were just 520 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: listening to is the one that's more straightforward. This is 521 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: what we want here. The demand seems heartless. The second 522 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 3: ransom note, in my opinion, seems more caring. We underestimated 523 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 3: the seriousness of her illness. We are truly sorry. There 524 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 3: is nothing that you could have done here. So is 525 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 3: Savannah Guthrie speaking directly to the writer of the second note. 526 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 10: It appears that way to me. 527 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 1: Okay, we are hearing Brianna Whitney. She is on Crime 528 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: Junkie and she's reportedly reading verbatim from the first ransom note. 529 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: Let's hear more. 530 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 10: The money was demanded in USD so US dollar. Typically, 531 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 10: if this is coming from somebody here, you don't say 532 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 10: that they are addressing just Savannah. Yeah, you don't say 533 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 10: the Guthrie family. Hello, Savannah, we have your mother. 534 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 11: We always wondered if it was like about who she was, 535 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 11: or did he just happen upon her not knowing that 536 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 11: he was going to garner this attention. But it seems 537 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 11: like this was about or they at least like not 538 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 11: necessary about Sanveyvanna, but they knew Savannah had money. 539 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 10: Yes, at a minimum, I think so, Savanna, I believe 540 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 10: was obviously you know the target of where we would 541 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 10: get the money from, if you are the person who 542 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 10: is targeting this. Once payment is received the bitcoin address below, 543 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 10: she will be released within twelve hours of deposit to 544 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 10: a safe drop off location back in Tucson. If the 545 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 10: payment is not received by the last deadline on Monday 546 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 10: the ninth, at five pm, she will be killed. Your 547 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 10: mother is aware of this and her life is in 548 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 10: your hands. It is in the best interest of everyone 549 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 10: to have this completed as soon as possible. You will 550 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 10: not be able to contact me from here on out. 551 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 10: There will be no negotiation. Do not play games. Law 552 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 10: enforcement will not be able to help you. 553 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: Two. Brian is Gibbons, Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security. This 554 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: is his specialty. We are now hearing that ransom note verbatim. 555 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: What do you make of it? 556 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, right off the cuff. You know, it's interesting to 557 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 5: see the full text of the ransom note that was 558 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 5: received by the various media outlets. Now, I do want 559 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 5: to say one thing. We still haven't determined and law 560 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 5: enforcement has not made a determination that this is indeed authentic. Right, 561 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 5: So back to what Morgan Wright said, and I think 562 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 5: he was spot on that some action has been taken 563 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 5: based on Savannah's new video. So when we have the 564 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 5: text of this original ransom note, some action in some 565 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 5: communication in between potentially has been taken. That bitcoin wallet 566 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 5: has been monitored by web sluice all over the country 567 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 5: on a daily basis, So we know that no bitcoin 568 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 5: transfer has been made of any substantial amount. So was 569 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 5: there another action made? 570 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 4: You know? 571 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 5: And was there are there more communications? 572 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: Now more of the ransom note verbatim. 573 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 10: We did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical conditions. 574 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 10: We never intended to hurt her. That was not our intention. 575 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 10: She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it 576 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 10: was heart related. She is buried in nature. Now, nothing 577 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 10: you could have done could have changed the outcome. We 578 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 10: are truly sorry. Verbidge, right, remember the usd the US dollars. 579 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 5: Right. 580 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 10: This is also a weird way of speaking. She perished 581 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 10: shortly after she was taken. She is buried in nature. 582 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 5: Now. 583 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 10: It's just a little off. And I believe this maybe 584 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 10: because the person reading the notes is foreign, English is 585 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 10: their second language, or they are using like a translator 586 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 10: to get their point across. 587 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: That is Brionna Whitney on Crime Junkie reading the ransom 588 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: note verbatim to Morgan Wright, joining US cybersecurity expert who 589 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: actually trained the fbiicart team. Do you hear what she's 590 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: saying about? Believing as many do, the purp is not 591 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: the purpose a foreign national, which would explain why his DNA, 592 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: if we have any, is not popping up in codis 593 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: are now data bank? 594 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, going back to that note too. Here's 595 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 7: the other thing too. We got to recognize too. They're 596 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 7: sophisticated enough that even the power and the might. And 597 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 7: look when I trained the FBI Computer Analysis Response Team 598 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 7: twenty five twenty six years ago, they were just getting 599 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 7: into Internet investigations. Now they are the masters of doing this. 600 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 7: The fact that they have not been able, or at 601 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 7: least publicly, we don't know that they've been able, to 602 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 7: identify the center of this message gives you a level 603 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 7: of sophistication, which then I want to be careful before 604 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 7: we infer that they are that it's foreign. I can 605 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 7: tell you on false flags operations I was involved in 606 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 7: and some deceptive techniques that we used. You would word 607 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 7: things to assign attribution to somebody else to make it 608 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 7: look like it came from somebody else. So I don't 609 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 7: want to read too much into this other than we 610 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 7: get back to the point Nancy. And this is something 611 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 7: I said before when I was on with you a 612 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 7: couple times before. None of these notes have risen to 613 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 7: an evidentiary level. In other words, if you really want 614 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 7: to establish that you know Nancy is and that you 615 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 7: have control of her, then send me a piece of 616 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 7: her clothing that we can test. As as you were 617 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 7: talking about, we can test the clothing for DNA to 618 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 7: say Yep, that's Nancy's. You have now authenticated nothing yet 619 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 7: has been authenticated to say these are genuine ransom notes. Now, 620 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 7: they're very persuasive. They were written in such a way 621 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 7: and they came shortly after. But think about this one 622 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 7: of the elements where it says, well, the light outside 623 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 7: is broken. You know, if I were going to write 624 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,399 Speaker 7: some kind of a ransom note, I would be very 625 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 7: specific about what I found inside the house, simply saying 626 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 7: that a watch was discarded by the bed. Okay, that 627 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 7: kind of preceded any information we had about that. But 628 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 7: I'm still looking for that evidentiary piece that says you 629 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 7: have now established immutably that you have proprietary knowledge about 630 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 7: Nancy Guthrie's location. And I was out there in Tucson 631 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 7: for four days, so it is. It's hard packed. There's 632 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 7: only three types of graves. You're going to find a 633 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 7: clandestine grave site, which I doubt that it's going to be. 634 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 7: It takes too much digging to do that. A concealed 635 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 7: grave site. Body was dumped somewhere inside of a building 636 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 7: or a structure, or an open or an open grave site. 637 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 7: And if it was open, I think with all the 638 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 7: attention by now they may have come across that considering 639 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 7: all the other things. So this is one of the 640 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 7: great mysteries. We are not really going to be able 641 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 7: to divine what the actual intention is until we identify 642 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 7: who the people are, and right now they're one up 643 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 7: on the FBI. They have not, at least to publicly, 644 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 7: the centers of the message have not been identified. 645 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Missus 646 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two 647 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: five five three, two four, or if you wish to 648 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four 649 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: six three. There is a one point two plus million 650 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: dollar reward for information leading to the discovery of Missus Guthrie. 651 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: We remember American hero Sergeant William Cherry, Macon County Sheriffs, 652 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty, leaving behind wife Alithia 653 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: and son TJ. American hero Sergeant William Cherry. Thank you 654 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: to our guest, but especially to you for being with 655 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: us tonight in our search for miss Nancy Guthrie. Nancy 656 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night, 657 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: and until then, good night, friend,