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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: So good to see you.

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Speaker 2: This is Wayne.

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Speaker 3: How are you rich, How you doing?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing right.

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Speaker 5: My name's Carol and Wayne's wife, Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Good to meet y'all.

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Speaker 1: Desmond Kendrick and Wayne Witcher are descended from the families

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Speaker 1: at the center of the eighteen fifty nine feud that's

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Speaker 1: stunned Virginia. In the summer of twenty twenty one, I

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Speaker 1: asked them to meet me at the Mountain View Plantation,

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Speaker 1: the Clement family's property in Pinhook. Wayne's wife, Carol was

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Speaker 1: there too. It was sort of a family reunion, a

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Speaker 1: meeting that both men were looking forward to. Wayne and

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Speaker 1: I had just looked at the Clement family cemetery behind

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Speaker 1: the mansion. I'm more excited about meeting me and everything.

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Speaker 3: Have y'all already walked out in there to the cemetery.

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Speaker 3: We sure did. Yeah, And I know it's growed up with.

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Speaker 4: Some wild rass, And then you're talking about where the

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Speaker 4: wal line where it's been broken down. There was one

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Speaker 4: modern tombstone and the rest of our field stone.

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Speaker 3: See, I was a little kid and one of my

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Speaker 3: great aunts brought me over here and sat out here

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Speaker 3: under this tree, and this house nobody lived in it

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Speaker 3: at that time frame, and she explained to me who

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Speaker 3: this was. And I remember precisely we went out to

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Speaker 3: that cemetery, and you know, I probably asked who they

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Speaker 3: were because I've always loved pictures. I've never forgot that.

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Speaker 1: Wayne and Desmond spent some time discovering family history, perhaps

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Speaker 1: the first time in years that a Clement and a

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Speaker 1: Witcher had done this. Later we'll go to a much

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Speaker 1: bigger reunion. Wayne has many questions for Desmond. Wayne is

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Speaker 1: hoping that Desmond can help fill in some gaps in

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Speaker 1: his genealogy research because Desmond, far down the line is

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Speaker 1: also related to a Witcher.

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Speaker 2: Tell me the Witcher connection.

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Speaker 1: You said you were part Witcher.

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Speaker 3: Also, yeah, man, the Witcher side is then another line.

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Speaker 3: It's not in my clements, but I had Atkins family,

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Speaker 3: which is just about everybody as you know, has Atkins

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Speaker 3: is somewhere, and in my Atkins line, the old William

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Speaker 3: Witcher had a daughter named Elizabeth. Then she married Napier.

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Speaker 3: That's my fourth great grandmother. So William's my fifth great granddad.

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Speaker 4: You would not happen to have a copy of the

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Speaker 4: family Bible, the Clement Family Bible, which has some notation

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Speaker 4: in it as to who William Witcher's wife I do.

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Speaker 3: I would have to look again. I've seen it. I

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Speaker 3: mean I remember the Family Bible. It was a big Bible.

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Speaker 3: I don't have that Bible.

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Speaker 2: This is the Holy Grail for Wayne.

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Speaker 1: I think you could die after this. And James was

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Speaker 1: in this house also at some point, as.

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Speaker 3: That James grew up here. This house was built in

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Speaker 3: eighteen eleven, so James and William and Ralph all grew

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Speaker 3: up here. There were eleven of them. Doctor Clement married

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Speaker 3: my grandmother, who's was Sarah out here, so she had

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Speaker 3: to a boy and a girl, so that she brought

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Speaker 3: them here. That made thirteen kids, and then she subsequently

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Speaker 3: had six more. The first two that she had was

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Speaker 3: Mary Francis and Susan Charlotte. They were two little babies.

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Speaker 3: One of them was stick this week, sol one was

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Speaker 3: eighteen months old. They had a nurse here and she

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Speaker 3: poisoned them.

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Speaker 1: We don't know whether it was accidental or intentional. Medicines

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Speaker 1: weren't always measured at home correctly by caretakers or parents,

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Speaker 1: and even doctors didn't always get the dosages right, but

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Speaker 1: intentional poisonings were also a lot more common in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds than they are now. It just wasn't as

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Speaker 1: easy to detect poison in an autopsy in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: so that death in the Clement family was a mystery.

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Speaker 1: Desmond Kendrick and Wayne Witcher are both committed to learning

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Speaker 1: as much as they can about their families, regardless of

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Speaker 1: whether the information frames their ancestors in a positive or

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Speaker 1: a negative light, and there seems to be a lot

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Speaker 1: of negative in both the Clements and the Witchers, but

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Speaker 1: especially the Clements. Bill Gurant says that Desmond knows all

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Speaker 1: about James Clement's reputation, but that Desmond believes that his

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Speaker 1: great great uncle didn't represent all of the Clements.

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Speaker 6: Well, Desmond may have told you this. I mean, I've

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Speaker 6: heard him say he thinks it's part of his responsibility

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Speaker 6: to defend the legacy of his uncles, the clem No,

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Speaker 6: I've heard it. I've heard him say that.

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Speaker 1: I spent the day talking with Desmond about his family,

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Speaker 1: and I noticed that he always referred to his great

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Speaker 1: great uncles and great great aunts as just aunts and uncles.

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Speaker 1: He mentioned several times that he had no bad feelings

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Speaker 1: toward the Witchers, no matter what happened, just like all

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Speaker 1: of this happened yesterday, not one hundred and sixty years ago.

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Speaker 1: But his great great uncle James Clement, along with his

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Speaker 1: two brothers were at the center of all of the

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Speaker 1: terrible events that took place back in eighteen sixty, and

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Speaker 1: Desmond admits that they clearly had troubles.

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Speaker 2: Bill said something interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: He said that he has heard you say that kind

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Speaker 1: of clearing your uncle's names is very important to you.

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Speaker 2: And now that I've listened to you understand that connection.

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Speaker 7: For you.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me like you just feel all of.

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Speaker 1: This more deeply than most people do, and you connect

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Speaker 1: it to your childhood.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 7: That's right?

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Speaker 3: But I mean I don't look at it per se

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Speaker 3: like I'm really trying to clear their names. It's just

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Speaker 3: growing up, I was taught to respect for them, you know,

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Speaker 3: just because they were family. In my thinking, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: I can see the three of them as hot heads.

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Speaker 3: I can see the three Witchers as hot heads. I

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Speaker 3: don't blame anybody honestly on it.

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Speaker 1: Desmond is a state archivist, and he knows an incredible

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Speaker 1: amount about digging into historical data, so his research on

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Speaker 1: his own family tree is very, very thorough. His interest

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Speaker 1: in the clements led to his lifelong career, and it

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Speaker 1: really started because he spent so much time with his grandparents.

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Speaker 3: My mom and dad both works, and my mom's parents

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Speaker 3: had a little country store, and I spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of time in that store because my grandmother wouldn't just

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Speaker 3: let anybody babysit me, because she didn't think they knew

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Speaker 3: how to take care of me with medicines and what

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Speaker 3: have you, and so she kept me there.

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Speaker 1: As a child, Desmond battled spinal meningitis and he needed

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Speaker 1: a lot of attention from his family.

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Speaker 3: There were always older people sitting around the little store,

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Speaker 3: and they would tell tales about so and so lived here,

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Speaker 3: so and so lived there, My parents did this, So

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Speaker 3: they did that, and I kind of listened to that

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Speaker 3: and I picked up on it, and so that got

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Speaker 3: me interested in other families, and so I started taking

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Speaker 3: notes when I was probably ten eleven years old on

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Speaker 3: people they talked about, and I would ask questions, where

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Speaker 3: did your mom and where did your dad live? And

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Speaker 3: so I learned early on to have an interest and

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Speaker 3: to write about what I call the little people.

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Speaker 1: Desmond calls the people that he studies little people if

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Speaker 1: they weren't famous in Virginia. And that's what's funny about

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Speaker 1: family stories. They're passed down from generation to generation, and

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Speaker 1: soon the facts become conflated with fables. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: sort out what really happened and who your relatives really were.

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Speaker 1: Historical documents can help, which is what I told Vicky Borden.

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Speaker 1: I have this book that has everything, all the transcripts.

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Speaker 1: Some lovely woman in Virginia went down to the historical

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Speaker 1: center and got all of the handwritten transcripts and typed

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Speaker 1: out everything in this book. It's probablybo one hundred fifty pages.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting? So what happened to him?

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Speaker 1: After my first conversation with Vicky Borden, she began reading

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Speaker 1: through the book that I sent her, containing all of

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Speaker 1: the details about the marriage, written by James and Victoria themselves.

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Speaker 1: These are legal documents and they are the closest narrative

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Speaker 1: to the truth that we'll get, and those details were

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Speaker 1: upsetting to Vicki, particularly about the final days of their marriage.

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Speaker 1: James was her great grandmother's father, so Vicky's never felt

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Speaker 1: compelled to pick either side because she is both a

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Speaker 1: Witcher and a Clement. But she's surprised about the accusations

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Speaker 1: against James.

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Speaker 2: I have lived this, and I have never heard any

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Speaker 2: of this.

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Speaker 8: I never heard any one say one unkind world about

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Speaker 8: James Clement. I never heard anything about abuse of anyone

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Speaker 8: or anybody.

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Speaker 1: Remember, there are two sides to every story. Ten months

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Speaker 1: after their wedding, James and Victoria Clement welcomed their daughter,

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Speaker 1: Lelia Maude Clement on March first, eighteen fifty nine. The

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Speaker 1: physician who delivered her reported that the baby seemed healthy.

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Speaker 1: Victoria was not. After giving birth, Victoria became very ill

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Speaker 1: with a child bed fever, likely the same type of

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Speaker 1: infection that killed scores of women in the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: She coughed and struggled for several weeks as both families

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Speaker 1: worried about her. A physician made house calls frequently to

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Speaker 1: check in on her. During one visit, James circled the

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Speaker 1: bed as the male doctor examined Victoria. He checked her

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Speaker 1: vitals by placing his hand on her chest. You can

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Speaker 1: imagine James's reaction to that. Not good. After the physician

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Speaker 1: left James raged at Victoria. With Lilia Maud lying next

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Speaker 1: to her. He leveled the same accusations at her that

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Speaker 1: he had for months about cheating and lying, but now

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Speaker 1: she was extremely sick, and he still seemed to have

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Speaker 1: no sympathy. When historians examined the past, it's important to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind that the sources were not always reliable,

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Speaker 1: and Desmond Kendrick reminds me of that. Much of what

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Speaker 1: we've heard about so far has come from Victoria Clement

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Speaker 1: through her divorced deposition. Desmond and Vicki Borden both read

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Speaker 1: the depositions. They say that both families had reason to

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Speaker 1: add extra details to their stories.

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Speaker 3: She supposedly had suitors. Now whether she did that or

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Speaker 3: whether she didn't is not my intention anymore to judge

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Speaker 3: her by it because she's my aunt. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: don't know what she did and what she didn't.

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Speaker 8: When I was rading Victoria's complaint and then I read

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Speaker 8: his and I thought, no, it really isn't. You know,

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Speaker 8: he's the man. Whatever he says, you know, he disputes

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Speaker 8: everything she says, and it just made me angry.

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Speaker 3: So you got two different point of views from two

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Speaker 3: different families, so either one could be right, either one could.

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Speaker 1: Be wrong, so you didn't lean one way or the other.

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Speaker 8: Well, I didn't like James very much, and I thought

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Speaker 8: he was just arrogant and probably a lot of truth

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Speaker 8: about his personality.

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Speaker 2: I felt sorry for her.

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Speaker 8: I felt like she was probably in a very bad

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Speaker 8: marriage and an unhappy one. I didn't believe a lot

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Speaker 8: of what he said.

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Speaker 1: You didn't, okay, so you thought she was more believable.

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Speaker 8: Well, I think she exaggerated a lot because she was desperate.

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Speaker 8: I don't believe that she had an illicit affair with

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Speaker 8: Gilbert while James was asleep in the bed.

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Speaker 1: That's ridiculous, But James was certain about Buck Gilbert. One

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Speaker 1: day at church service, Victoria stood up from the ladies

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Speaker 1: pew with Lilia Maud and left to nurse the little girl.

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Speaker 1: James jumped up to go with her, despite her quiet

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Speaker 1: but firm objections, he eyed her as she walked past

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Speaker 1: Buck Gilbert, the man that he suspected was sleeping with

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Speaker 1: his wife. When Victoria returned, he hissed her that he

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Speaker 1: was sure that she winked at Buck. That was his

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Speaker 1: proof of their affair, said James. Victoria had learned months

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Speaker 1: ago that responding to James would result in even more accusations,

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Speaker 1: even louder and more offensive than the last. Like all

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Speaker 1: of the other times, this outburst eventually waned. The last

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Speaker 1: fight of their marriage happened at the end of the summer,

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Speaker 1: just three months after their one year anniversary. Victoria climbed

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Speaker 1: out of bed on August twenty fourth, eighteen fifty nine,

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Speaker 1: and picked up Lilia Maud, who was now almost six

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Speaker 1: months old, vic to embrace motherhood. She bonded with the

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Speaker 1: little girl instantly, despite struggling through an illness. Her family.

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Speaker 1: The Witchers had hoped that James would be a good father,

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Speaker 1: that parenthood would temper his temper. It did not. James

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Speaker 1: still continued to rant about other men about Victoria's occasional

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Speaker 1: bouts of sassiness toward him. It all seemed so disrespectful

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Speaker 1: to James. He worked hard for their small family, but

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Speaker 1: Victoria seemed to be creating even more distance between them

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Speaker 1: than before they had Lilia Maud. James seemed particularly abusive

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Speaker 1: that Wednesday morning, he watched his daughter's squirm around her bed.

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Speaker 1: He glanced over at Victoria and glared at his wife

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Speaker 1: James felt constantly abused by her. He would later claim

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Speaker 1: he remembered the time when his wife punched him. He

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Speaker 1: warned her to stop hitting him and yelled that if

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Speaker 1: she did it again that he would certainly box her jaws.

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Speaker 1: James says she stopped and never did it again after that,

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Speaker 1: and that he would never have hurt her physically. He

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Speaker 1: just wanted her to act right, to obey his wishes,

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Speaker 1: whatever they were. That morning, Lilliah Maud reminded him of

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Speaker 1: a joke that Victoria had made when she was still pregnant,

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Speaker 1: a very disrespectful joke that she knew would upset him.

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Speaker 1: Months earlier. His wife had been exasperated and she felt

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Speaker 1: like needling him. According to James, she wondered aloud what

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Speaker 1: he'd think if the baby turned out to have black eyes.

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Speaker 1: The implication was, of course, that it would not be

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Speaker 1: James's baby, but the child of one of their enslaved men.

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Speaker 1: At the time, James glared at her, smirked, and said,

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Speaker 1: if they are black, then I'll own it. By the

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Speaker 1: time this viewed between the two families ends, at least

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Speaker 1: a half a dozen men will have done dreadful things

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Speaker 1: to each other. And you might actually begin to feel

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Speaker 1: sorry for some of them. Little Lelia Maud would lose

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Speaker 1: several family members, important people to her whom she would

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Speaker 1: never know. Some would die painfully, while others would learn

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Speaker 1: a painful lesson about family loyalty and revenge. But Vicki

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Speaker 1: Bardon's daughter Jane Borden reminds us of the bigger picture here.

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Speaker 1: We shouldn't feel too sorry for any of them.

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Speaker 9: These are men, you know, let's be honest, who are

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Speaker 9: committing atrocities on a daily basis by owning slaves and

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Speaker 9: treating them the way slaves were treated, So it wasn't

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Speaker 9: out of character.

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Speaker 1: There's no record of how many enslaved people the Witchers

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Speaker 1: and the Clements owned, but in the legal documents there

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Speaker 1: are several men, women, and children listed as property. In

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Speaker 1: the depositions that would follow, witnesses talked casually about chasing

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Speaker 1: down runaway slaves and punishing them, And of course there

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Speaker 1: was no out rage in the proceedings or in the

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Speaker 1: press over this kind of disgusting talk. It was all

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Speaker 1: so common. Even Victoria Clements kept a close eye on

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Speaker 1: the enslaved people in her household. Janice Kennedy is a

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Speaker 1: historian with Colonial Williamsburg and an expert in a Black

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Speaker 1: experience in historic Virginia. She says that being an enslaved

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Speaker 1: person in rural Virginia in the eighteen hundreds meant that

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Speaker 1: the work never stopped ever, and they were always in danger.

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Speaker 10: Because even when the season for planting and sowing and

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Speaker 10: harvesting is over, who's mending fences, who's got the terms

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Speaker 10: for the fences, who's clearing the land and grubbing up

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Speaker 10: stumps and burning off the overgrowth and the underbrush. See,

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Speaker 10: the work never stops. But if you're out there, you

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Speaker 10: probably can find some moments of time to be away

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Speaker 10: as opposed to being under somebody's thumb. But the work

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Speaker 10: never stops because once you get this spot over here cleared,

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Speaker 10: if your owner has nothing for you to do, guess what,

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Speaker 10: well your free hands can go up somebody else. I

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Speaker 10: can contract you out. So it's always the prospect of

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Speaker 10: making money. Your labor doesn't stop.

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Speaker 1: And now some of the enslaved people kept by James

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Speaker 1: of Victoria would become deeply involved in their crumbling marriage.

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Speaker 1: That morning, James Clement was still bitter and furious over

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Speaker 1: Victoria's comment about their child's black eyes, a jab that

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Speaker 1: James says she took just to upset him. It did,

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Speaker 1: and now he wanted to punish her. As his wife

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Speaker 1: quietly made their bed, he demanded one more time that

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Speaker 1: she had met her infidelity. When she refused, James snapped.

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Speaker 1: He flung open the door and bellowed into the yard

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Speaker 1: for the six year old enslaved boy named Silas. Victoria

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Speaker 1: started to cry as James dragged the boy into the

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Speaker 1: house and ripped off his clothes. As the boy stood

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Speaker 1: there naked, James lashed him until he bled. Silas screamed

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00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,959
Speaker 1: and cried for his mother, while James coldly continued to

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Speaker 1: monitor his wife's reaction. Victoria said that James paused, glared

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Speaker 1: at her, and claimed that he was abusing the boy

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Speaker 1: because the child did something wrong while working in the

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00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 1: clements tobacco field. She wasn't doing her job as the

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00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,639
Speaker 1: manager of their household. She should have punished him herself.

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Speaker 1: Victoria wept until he finally stopped and released Silas. Later

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Speaker 1: that night, Victoria accused James of whipping Silas just to

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Speaker 1: upset her. He told her that this was all her fault,

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Speaker 1: and after they ate, he would tie up the child

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Speaker 1: and whip him until he died. Wayne Wicher had never

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00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: heard anything about this story until I read it to

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Speaker 1: him in Victoria's bill of complaint against James.

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Speaker 4: I cannot get over what you told me, and that

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Speaker 4: is that he pulled slaves in front of her, pulled

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Speaker 4: their clothes off, and beat them in front of her,

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Speaker 4: just to make an impression. And so that alone, to me,

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Speaker 4: indicates the violent nature of this man. I'm afraid of him,

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Speaker 4: and I don't know the man. That type of behavior

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Speaker 4: is incomprehensible to me.

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Speaker 1: Wayne says he had suspected from family stories that James

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Speaker 1: had anger problems, but it's different when you read about

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Speaker 1: an attack so vicious like the one against the little boy.

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Speaker 4: It tells me that mister James Clement was a hot

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Speaker 4: head and was very insecure. And I wouldn't stay with

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Speaker 4: the guy either.

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Speaker 1: As Victoria quietly cleared the table of their dinner plates,

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Speaker 1: she was anxious. She knew that James would kill Silas

329
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Speaker 1: just despite her, but not if James couldn't locate him.

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Speaker 1: Victoria raced around the property until she found the boy.

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Speaker 1: She told him to run through the darkness to his

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Speaker 1: mother's house about three miles away. He did, and she

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00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: returned to find James furious, demanding that she'd tell him

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Speaker 1: where the child was. Victoria refused, and he said, you

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00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:20,119
Speaker 1: must now look out for the worst. Fearing for her life,

336
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 1: Victoria flung open the door and mounted a nearby horse

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Speaker 1: as an enslaved woman held a crying Lilia Maud, James

338
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 1: snatched the baby and ordered Victoria to leave. She raced

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Speaker 1: off into the night toward her mother's house just a

340
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: short ride away, but soon James followed her. There, Victoria's

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Speaker 1: mother answered the door, and James curtly asked to see

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Speaker 1: his wife. When Victoria came to the door, he coldly

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Speaker 1: asked if she would return to be with their daughter.

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Speaker 1: After thinking about it for a few moments, Victoria sadly

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00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 1: agreed that she couldn't imagine being without Lilia Maud, and

346
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 1: maybe this horrible incident might somehow change James for the better.

347
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Speaker 1: Wishful thinking, the next morning, Victoria returned to the house.

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Speaker 1: She and James were quiet as she took care of

349
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Speaker 1: Lilia Maud. He seemed sullen that night, around nine o'clock,

350
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Speaker 1: as Victoria climbed into bed with Lilia Maud. She heard

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Speaker 1: her husband tell an enslaved man to prepare a horse

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Speaker 1: for him to leave the house at a moment's notice.

353
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Speaker 1: He also ordered that a bucket of very hot water

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Speaker 1: be brought inside.

355
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Speaker 4: What was he planning?

356
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Speaker 1: James ordered two enslaved women who were living upstairs to

357
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Speaker 1: come down to their bedroom chambers. He accused them of

358
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Speaker 1: aiding in Victoria's infidelity. He told them that he would

359
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 1: use the hot water to torture them until they confessed.

360
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: Victoria screamed and ran around the house looking for weapons.

361
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: The guns and the knives were all gone. He yelled

362
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,439
Speaker 1: loudly for help. As Lilia Maude began crying, James released

363
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,439
Speaker 1: the two women and ordered everyone but Victoria to leave

364
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Speaker 1: the house. He bellowed that he had hired someone for

365
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Speaker 1: five dollars a week to watch her, and the man

366
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: had returned with proof of her affair. James insisted that

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't kill her, but she must confess. Victoria feared

368
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Speaker 1: that he had weapons, which he denied. Then Victoria did

369
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Speaker 1: something smart. She asked for a proof of where the

370
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 1: weapons were being kept, and James briefly left the room.

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Speaker 1: When he turned Victoria raced through the door and into

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Speaker 1: the darkness in her bare feet. As James watched, she

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Speaker 1: ran about a mile to Johnston Clement's house, James's brother. Soon,

374
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Speaker 1: James mounted a horse and rode after her. When James

375
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: arrived and demanded that she return, Victoria refused. He seemed

376
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: concerned how it might look for him to force Victoria

377
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 1: to go home, so James reluctantly left her there. Within

378
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: a day, Lilia Maud was gone from her father's house.

379
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: A Justice of the peace removed her from the Clement

380
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: home despite James's please. The infant was placed with Victoria

381
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Speaker 1: at her mother's home, where she was expected to remain

382
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 1: until the divorce was settled. Victoria would never return to

383
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 1: the home that she had worked so hard to establish

384
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 1: her marriage was over. Wayne Witcher keeps returning to James's

385
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: abuse of the enslaved boy, another reminder of how cruel

386
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: slave owners could be with impunity.

387
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Speaker 4: To me, that's cruelty at another level to inflict pain

388
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 4: on an innocent child just to make your point to

389
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 4: the person that you're having a problem with. I also

390
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 4: think this is an issue of child custody. Boy. When

391
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 4: you are talking about the custody of children. That takes

392
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 4: it to a whole nother level.

393
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: Wayne's right. Both sides hurled accusations of each other about

394
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 1: emotional and physical abuse, but ultimately this came down to

395
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: a battle over their baby. Lillia Maud and Jane Borden

396
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: is still confused about what exactly happened the night that

397
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: Victoria left.

398
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 9: That's been the burning question for me as I just

399
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 9: want to know what happened because there's so many accounts,

400
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 9: and some of them say that she feared violence and

401
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 9: that that's why she ran to flee in the middle

402
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 9: of the night and leave your child. I mean, I

403
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 9: would assume that that's what's happening.

404
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 1: Well, remember it sounds like James had a history of

405
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: basically imprisoning her in that house, and then he stalked

406
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: her and told her to avoid all men, and then

407
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: he put those chairs around the bed, so it was

408
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: a lot.

409
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, he set up almost like a booby trap kind

410
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 9: of situation in the bedroom so he would know when

411
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 9: she was coming and going, which is like, that's classic

412
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 9: domestic abuse behavior, that's controlling, that's like textbook nowadays. So

413
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 9: that tells me that, yeah, she needed to get out

414
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 9: of there.

415
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: Domestic Abuse Court Judge Dimple Mahultra agrees with Victoria's description

416
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: of habitually abusive behavior.

417
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 11: It's kind of an ongoing terrorism the way I describe it.

418
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 11: In an intimate relationship, you see things like that. So

419
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 11: maybe you don't see physical violence necessarily, but you definitely

420
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 11: see those types of controlling behaviors and that type of

421
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 11: intimate terrorism.

422
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: Judge Mahultra describes one type of intimate terrorism, as she

423
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: calls it, like what Victoria said James had inflicted on her.

424
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 11: I've had more than one case in my career where

425
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 11: the perpetrator or the batterer asked to see the victim's underwear,

426
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 11: to inspect her underwear every time she came home, even

427
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 11: if it was from work. And so, you know, those

428
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 11: kinds of behaviors instill a level of fear that is

429
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 11: sometimes equivalent to or more than someone who is physically abuse.

430
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher says that Victoria was very brave to leave,

431
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: especially because she was a woman in the nineteenth century.

432
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 4: All I can say is that if a woman fears

433
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 4: for their life, they have every right to run from

434
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 4: the aggressor, and she did the right thing by leaving

435
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 4: that house and running for her life, and I would

436
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 4: do the same thing. Those times were different than now,

437
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 4: and a lot of times it seems to me that

438
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 4: the weight of law sided with the men.

439
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: Desmond Kendrick says that it's important to try to keep

440
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: perspective about the past because there's no way to know

441
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: the whole story. And when James told his version, it

442
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: was very, very different. Who was telling the truth.

443
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: Didn't tell like James was being the best husband right.

444
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: I didn't know him, I didn't see him. But on

445
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: the same token, his wife Victoria. When I was growing up,

446
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: she was still spoke of by my great aunts as

447
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: Aunt Victoria. They didn't know her either, and so I

448
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 3: was taught to respect her because of who she was,

449
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: even though supposedly the feud was over her, which I

450
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 3: think that probably was a big part of it, but

451
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 3: not all of it.

452
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: Soon both sides were able to explain what happened, and

453
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: as others have said, the truth was in there somewhere,

454
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: but both James and Victoria were desperate to keep the

455
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: other one away from Liliah Maud, who wasn't even a

456
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: year old. It might have been the end of the marriage,

457
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: but it was just the beginning of the feud. This

458
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: story still has so many twists and turns. On August thirtieth,

459
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty nine, Victoria Smith Clement filed for divorce from

460
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: James Clement and Wayne Witcher says that this was an

461
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: unusual case because Victoria was the one who filed for divorce,

462
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: which wasn't easy in the eighteen fifties for anyone, let

463
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: alone a woman.

464
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 4: She didn't just run down with your local lawyer to

465
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 4: the courthouse and file for divorce and expect that it

466
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 4: was going to be concluded in a few months. You

467
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 4: actually had to petition a lawmaker. In other words, they

468
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 4: had to pass a bill which allowed that divorce to happen.

469
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 4: It was literally an act of Congress, so to speak,

470
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 4: at the state level.

471
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: Victoria filed for divorce by submitting the bill of complaint.

472
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: It detailed seemingly every moment of terror that she felt

473
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: while married to James. She described how he harassed every

474
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: man who looked at her, how he forbade her from

475
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: leaving the house on most days. He was profane and

476
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: abusive and a terrible husband. James and the Clements received

477
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: the documents from Victoria's legal representative and didn't immediately respond,

478
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: but when they did, James's own accusations were damning. James

479
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: complained that Victoria was rarely at home, and when she was,

480
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: that she was verbally and physically abusive to his friends

481
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: and family, and in fact, she had verbally and physically

482
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: abused him, but he refused to act. Victoria was never

483
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: affectionate toward him and very cold, he said, and some

484
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: of the clements would confirm that she was not very

485
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: kind to them. James claimed that Victoria was very fond

486
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: of Buck Gilbert, and she visited him and his family often,

487
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 1: which seemed wholly inappropriate to James. Someone was constantly harassing

488
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: him at night by shaking the windows and doors, which

489
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: was why he responded by sneaking around the house carrying

490
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: a pistol. He said. It's true that he did insist

491
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: on accompanying her to church, but that's what proper husbands

492
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: should do. James said that he had never reprimanded Victoria

493
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: for allowing the doctor to touch her breast. The doctor

494
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: did nothing wrong, so there was nothing to be upset about.

495
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: He did whip the enslaved boy, but only because he

496
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: had disobeyed James and the boy's mother several times. In fact,

497
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: he blamed Victoria for not punishing the boy herself. James

498
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: never threatened to kill enslaved women. Why would he hurt

499
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: females whom he considered to be his valuable property. He

500
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: did admit to beating various people that night, but in

501
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: the mid eighteen hundreds, abusing a black person wasn't considered

502
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: egregious or surprising. He had no problem admitting to that.

503
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: In his response, James denied all of Victoria's accusations, except

504
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: for his strong reaction to Buck Gilbert, because the man

505
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: was clearly hoping to seduce Victoria and it appeared to

506
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: be working. The night of Victoria left for a second time,

507
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: James said she walked out. She didn't run. He said

508
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: she bent down and whispered to Lilia Maud, farewell, my child, forever.

509
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: I never expect to see you again. May God's blessing

510
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: rest on you. Two days after that response, James filed

511
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: a court order demanding that Lilia Maud be removed from

512
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: Victoria's custody and placed with his sister temporarily. James accused

513
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: Victoria of being unfit to rear Liliah Maud to be

514
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: a proper woman. He agreed that the baby should stay

515
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: with her mother until she was done breastfeeding when Lilya

516
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: Maud turned too, and then the girl should be immediately

517
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: removed from Victoria's home. Victoria responded by requesting that she

518
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: continued to have sole custody as well as child support.

519
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: She argued that James was an unfit father, and she

520
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: knew that he had quite a bit of money. James,

521
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: of course disagreed and responded that the money was his

522
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: father's doctor clements, not his. A Justice of the Peace

523
00:30:54,720 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: reviewed both arguments and sided with Victoria. He ruled so

524
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: that not only should Victoria keep lily A Maud, but

525
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: James also had to pay his wife two hundred and

526
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: fifty dollars in chot support, which would be more than

527
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: eight thousand dollars today. The Justice of the Peace clearly

528
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: did not believe James. The Witchers were furious about James's

529
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: violent behavior, but the first time they heard his full

530
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: accusations against Victoria was in his response to her bill

531
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: of complaint, and of course they were even further enraged

532
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: over his allegations of her infidelity. Wesley Witcher says that

533
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: James's inflammatory response must have seemed like a declaration of

534
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: war to Victoria's family.

535
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 7: If you defame somebody, if you defame a woman or

536
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 7: defame somebody's name, it carried a lot of weight back then,

537
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 7: and you didn't get between people in the family like

538
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 7: an outsider coming in. I think these families were very guarded,

539
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 7: very protected. I know they had big families first of

540
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 7: all to work the fields. I mean that's a given,

541
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 7: but they also had a families really to kind of

542
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 7: protect each other and watch out for each other.

543
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher says it seems hard to believe that the

544
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: Witchers didn't know about the abuse before Victoria filed the

545
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: legal paperwork with all of those allegations. It deepened their

546
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: disgust for James and allowed them to justify making their

547
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: own threats.

548
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 4: Maybe Vincent Witcher and maybe Vincent Addison Witcher, maybe they

549
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 4: knew about this guy, and they knew how he was.

550
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: Maybe they saw him treat Victoria this way publicly and

551
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 4: in private. Maybe they already had some issue with this guy,

552
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 4: knowing that he was abusing a mistreating Victoria.

553
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: More on that. Later in the nineteenth century, wives were

554
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: expected to show deference to their husbands in most situations,

555
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: even if it put their own wives in danger. The

556
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: Witchers fully supported Victoria's move to divorce James, but historian

557
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: Bill Grant says Victoria risked living in race because strangers

558
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: might not have understood her situation, because in the eighteen hundreds,

559
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: divorce was considered almost taboo.

560
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 6: Well, you know, you took a vow that said for

561
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 6: better or worse death do you part, and all that,

562
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 6: and that's what they thought it meant. So if you

563
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 6: end up in a bad marriage, deal with it. But

564
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 6: there were certain grounds such as abandonment or in fidelity,

565
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 6: which in those days was not a non serious matter.

566
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 6: Now it was much more serious matter.

567
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: Than and the honor code came into play with accusations

568
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: during divorces too. In some ways, people in the eighteen

569
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: hundreds cared much more about their public image than we

570
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: even do today.

571
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 6: Also reflected negatively on the other spouse. If you said,

572
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 6: my wife's cheating on me, you're going to feel people

573
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 6: are whispering because of you, and vice versa, my husband

574
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 6: cheating on me, they're going to whispers because of you.

575
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 6: So it just people dealt with it. But divorces were rare.

576
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 6: They had to be for calls shown.

577
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: Historian Carson Hudson specializes in Virginia history. He says that

578
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: divorces were so rare because this just cause was hard

579
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: for women to prove they were clearly at a disadvantage.

580
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: Getting a divorce in eighteen sixty seems kind of difficult.

581
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 5: A lot easier than it was in the eighteenth cent right, Well,

582
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 5: it depends on who wants the divorce too, Okay, Well,

583
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 5: for her, it's going to be an uphill battle because

584
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 5: she's got to prove some cost why she should live

585
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 5: separately or maintain herself separately from her husband. Most people

586
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 5: at this time they can't stand each other, or they

587
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 5: just dislike each other. They don't really want to be

588
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 5: husband and wife again. But they never divorce, They just

589
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 5: lived separately.

590
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: But Wayne Witcher says that despite those social rules, it

591
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: seemed that Victoria Clement was absolutely justified to seek a

592
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: divorce from James.

593
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: Sounds to me like Victoria just stood up for her rights.

594
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 4: I think it's pretty brave of her to sue for divorce,

595
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 4: considering the times in which she lived. I think that

596
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 4: her family rallied behind her. Stood up and said, we're

597
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 4: going to defend the honor of this woman.

598
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: The Witchers and the Clements were once close, or at

599
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: least cordial. Once Victoria and James married. Now there was

600
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: bitter acrimony that might never be healed. But the first

601
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: step would be the closure that couples sometimes need after

602
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: a divorce. That chapter of their lives is closed and

603
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: they can hopefully move on, and an abuser might then

604
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: seek help and admit to all of the things that

605
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: he was accused of. Judge Dimple Maholtra says that in

606
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: her court she's listened as abusers express real regret, but

607
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: it's sometimes difficult to detect if it's truthful.

608
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 11: You do see remorse, but sometimes that remorse is authentic

609
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 11: and genuine, and sometimes that remorse is manipulation. And that's

610
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 11: where experience comes into play. Honestly. I mean, I have

611
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 11: dealt with so many cases and have talked to both

612
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 11: sides so many times that it's really easy to be

613
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 11: able to kind of see which is which. Sometimes you

614
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 11: really do genuinely have people who are remorseful and who

615
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 11: kind of have that wake up moment where they say,

616
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 11: I need help.

617
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: Would that be the case for James, would he be

618
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: genuinely apologetic. In just a few weeks, the Witchers would

619
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: find out exactly how James and the Clements felt about them.

620
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: Once Victoria filed her bill of complaint of divorce against

621
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: James and he submitted a response, depositions were scheduled for

622
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,959
Speaker 1: September twenty first, eighteen fifty nine. Both families would meet

623
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: in Sandy Level, close to where the Witchers and the

624
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: Clements lived. A slew of witnesses would be there too

625
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: to testify to what they saw. Historian Bill Gurant explains

626
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: what would happen next.

627
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 6: Before you go to trial, the witnesses can be required

628
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 6: to give sworn testimony. This enables the lawyers to know

629
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 6: what the witness is going to say at the trial.

630
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 6: And so you have a steniographer and they're put under oath,

631
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 6: and the lawyer asked them questions just like you would

632
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 6: do at trial, and the witness answers the questions. But

633
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 6: a deposition is like you and I are doing. You

634
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 6: asked me questions, I answer, I'm sworn to tell the truth.

635
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 6: I'm guilty of perjury if I don't. That's the deposition.

636
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 1: As we learn more about both the Witches and the Clements.

637
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: It seemed clear that in eighteen fifty nine, each family

638
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: was committed to its own side of the story. The

639
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: Clements contended that Victoria was rarely home and seemed disinterested

640
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: in her husband and her daughter. She was having an affair,

641
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: they said, maybe several, and she enjoyed goading her faithful husband.

642
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: The Witches claim that James Clement was a monster, a

643
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: habitual abuser who was a horrible husband, and a questionable

644
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: father who was right. It would be up to legal

645
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: professionals to figure it out during depositions with James and Victoria,

646
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: along with various other witnesses. In the meantime, the couple

647
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: was told by their families to avoid each other there

648
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: was too much wich animosity brewing between them and their relatives.

649
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: But in this case, the distance wouldn't help the tension

650
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: at all. This had been simmering for too long, and

651
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: when their families would meet in court, the Witchers and

652
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: the Clements would all arrive fully armed, and some of

653
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: them wouldn't survive. On the next episode of tenfold, war

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00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: wicked on exactly right.

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00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: So it was just a tragedy.

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00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 8: It was terrible and It was a horrible thing for

657
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 8: that part of Virginia because they'd fought in the war

658
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 8: and they owned all the property and people looked up

659
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 8: to them, and then this horrible thing happened.

660
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 3: I feel like that divorce proceeding in eighteen fifty nine

661
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: was just a little spark when she was trying to

662
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 3: get the divorce, because at the time, you didn't do that.

663
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 3: I think that really hit the fan, and they were

664
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: just almost looking for reason to get into something. All

665
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: six of them, not just the Witchers, are the clements.

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00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 8: It was threatening and it got out of hand, and

667
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 8: it got out of hand because of one guy in

668
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 8: the courtroom accused the all the guy being a liar,

669
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 8: and then all the threats and all the hatred and

670
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 8: all the violence just bubbled over.

671
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 4: What I'm wondering is why they didn't make them check

672
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 4: their guns and knives at the door. Kind of interesting.

673
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 4: They had to have known that this would happen.

674
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for

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Speaker 1: right tenfold war. Media production producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Mrosi

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Speaker 1: and Laura Sobol. Sound design Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath,

682
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Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff

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Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at

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Speaker 1: Subscribe now on Amazon Music, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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