1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: I never thought I would ever get a chance to 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: visit that story again, but I did when an Amish 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: man by way of a librarian, contact to me and said, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: there's somebody here, Greg that wants to talk to you, 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: but he doesn't have a phone. You have to make 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: an appointment. 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and report on notorious true 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. One of the most interesting 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: aspects of true crime is how we're able to explore 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: cultures and societies that we might not have ever known about. 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,279 Speaker 1: That's the case for me when I talked with author 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: greg Olsen about his book The Amish Wife. It's about 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: a killer in the Amish community in Pennsylvania. There are 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: many twists and turns in this story. I promise you 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: have done something that I only dream of, which is 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: you have written one book and then have been able 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: to parlay it into another book based on research you 28 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: had done for that first book. So now we're going 29 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: to have to talk about two greg Olsen books, which 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: is great. I always like it two for one on 31 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: this show. So tell me where to start with this story, 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: which is set in Amish country in Ohio. 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And really what starts the whole story is, 34 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: as you said, it's really revisiting my first book, Abandoned Prayers, 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: which was published in about nineteen ninety, and it was 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: the story about a child found dead in a ditch 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: in a little town in Nebraska on Christmas Eve, and 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: he went unnamed, unknown for eighteen months. Nobody knew who 39 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: this kid was, or where he came from, or even 40 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: how he died. And the town did like this beautiful 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: thing where they did a funeral for him, and they 42 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: put up a grave marker and they really grieved for 43 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: this child. What happened though, was they put it in 44 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: Reader's Digest, and lo and behold the people who read 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: the Reader's di iges, probably more than anybody, are the Amish. 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: They love Reader's Digest. 47 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: What no, that kid really? 48 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: Yes, So they were reading Reader's Digest and they said, oh, 49 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: my gosh, this sounds like the little boy from our community, 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: Danny Stutsman, who had been missing for about a year 51 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: and a half. And that's what really kicked off abandoned 52 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 2: prayers was this idea, like, how did this Amish kid 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: end up in a ditch? What brought him there? And 54 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: all of that stuff. So, I mean, I dug into 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: that first story and it turned out, you know, that 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: his dad was a gay Amish man who had been married, 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: had a child, and his wife died in a mysterious 58 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: fire that looked slightly suspicious, but there was no investigation, 59 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: and then he fled the Amish and left a trail 60 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: of bodies, including a roommate in Texas, two men in Colorado, 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: and then the last one was his little boy, who 62 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: was found in that ditch. So that's a great story, 63 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: like how does that happen? How does a man from 64 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: the Amish community live with one being gay, that must 65 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: have been tough for him. And also why is he 66 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: killing all these people? What's happening there? And that was 67 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: what Abandoned Prayers was all about. It was that story. 68 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: But within that story there was also the story of 69 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: IDAs Stutsman, the wife. 70 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: So where does it make sense for us to start 71 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: now with I guess Ida's story is that we always 72 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: like to do victim first. 73 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: Here this all starts in nineteen seventy seven. We've got 74 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: a twenty six year old Amish woman who's basically she's 75 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: a seven months pregnant. She's got a little boy named Danny. 76 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: She's married to a man named Eli, and she's a 77 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: member of the Swartz and Trooper Amish, which are the 78 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: most conservative group of all Amish. And then when I 79 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: say conservative, it's like, this is a group that won't 80 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: even have buttons. They won't even have a hook and 81 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: eye on their clothing. Women have to fasten their clothing 82 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: with straight pins because those other ideas are too worldly. 83 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of rules. You know, we know 84 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: they don't drive cars, we know all of that. We 85 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: know they don't have running water into the house. All 86 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 2: of these things are very different among the Amish. There's 87 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 2: different layers of who Amish people are. But this is 88 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: what they call the low Amish, meaning the ones that 89 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: are the least sophisticated, the least worldly. So she's a 90 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: member of that sect and she, you know, she's one 91 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 2: of those people who unfortunately we don't get to know 92 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: a lot about her. Why is that because one there's 93 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: no photographs of her, and you know how photographs like 94 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 2: key into memories of what somebody was like. You know, 95 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: I remember when I was at a birthday party and 96 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: this photo reminds me of blah blah blah. We have 97 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: none of that history. All we have are the memories 98 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: of Amish people who knew her, and they knew her 99 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: only as you know, another Amish woman. Which I want 100 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: to say, this is kind of the tragedy of all 101 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: of this, and that women throughout history have always been 102 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 2: marginalized in one way or another, and it continues to 103 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: be a very strong pattern among the source and trouber Amish. 104 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: These women have no say and really anything, nor do 105 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: they even ask for it because they don't even know 106 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 2: they can. 107 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: So we don't know very much about Ida. What do 108 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: we know about Eli and then their dynamic and their marriage, 109 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: and they have this young son, and she's pregnant. We 110 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: know that pregnant women have a higher chance of being 111 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: murdered than women who aren't pregnant. So tell me a 112 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: little bit about the dynamic between Eli and Ida. 113 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: Eli and Ida. You know, they are not a typical 114 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: couple in that they waited a long time to get married. 115 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: Normally they marry as teenagers, but in this case, Eli 116 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: had left the faith, He went under the ban. At 117 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: one point, he came back, he left again. The whole 118 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: time Ida's waiting for him. Her parents say, you know, 119 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: he's no good. Maybe we should find you somebody else, 120 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: and she says, no, only Eli. Eli is the only 121 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: one for me. Because he was different than the other guys. 122 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: Eli was kind of a slightly charismatic feature among the Amish. Now, 123 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: remember the benchmark for Christmas low here. You know, it's 124 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: like it's not you know, somebody's sitting around telling jokes 125 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: or whatever. It's a more of an alertness, maybe a 126 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 2: little bit of a sassy kind of attitude. You know, 127 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: things that maybe indicate he's slightly a rebel. All of 128 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: those things come into play to make him attractive to Ida, 129 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: I think because she was the quintessential good girl, the 130 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: good Amish girl waiting for the guy to come to 131 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: his senses. So we have that dynamic going along, and 132 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: we also have a challenge with getting married. Getting married 133 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: became an obstacle for them because they have to take 134 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: a blood test in Ohio. At that time, Eli took 135 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: the blood test and it came back. He says that 136 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: my blood was no good. Now the Amish don't know this, 137 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: and many of them don't, but they're testing for syphilis. 138 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: So Eli had syphilis. He didn't tell anybody this, but 139 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: he went to a doctor, a doctor who serves the Amige, 140 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: a chiropractor, and that doctor said, I'm going to give 141 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: him some tea, some herb tea and clear up that 142 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: bad blood. 143 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: Wait, and a chiropractor. They used a chiropractor. 144 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: Yes, this is the way the Amish are. Though they 145 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: used a chiropractor on a lot of things. Okay, they 146 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: have very different ways of dealing with medical issues. And 147 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: for example, I'll throw an outside thing here, Like with 148 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,119 Speaker 2: their teeth. A lot of Homage people have their teeth 149 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: pulled at even a young age because if they start 150 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: losing a tooth or whatever. It's too expensive to go back, 151 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: so they like, there's nineteen year olds that have dentures. Anyway, 152 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: Medical is one thing, right, you know this, and I 153 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: know that they weren't testing for any other reason other 154 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: than a venario disease. But miraculously Eli gets it cleared 155 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: up and he and Ida are married. 156 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: Now, what do we know about Eli's family? Did they 157 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: have a good reputation in the Amish community in Ohio 158 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: or do we know much about him growing up? 159 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, we do, we know. I mean Eli came 160 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: from a large family, like all these Homish families are large, 161 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: and he was raised on a farm, did all those 162 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 2: kinds of things. But he didn't like his father at all. 163 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: This was very disrespectful in the community. You know, Eli 164 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: would laugh about him and poke fun at him, and 165 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: when he was injured badly at one time, Eli, you know, 166 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: took great delight in that. At one point before Ida's marriage, 167 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: in Eli's marriage, Eli's father has Eli put into a 168 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: mental hospital for a short time. He carts his son 169 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: off and takes him to a mental hospital and leaves 170 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: him there. I mean, there's a lot of push and 171 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: pull in this family, whether it's because Eli was that 172 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 2: rebel that I mentioned earlier, or whether it was because 173 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: he was gay and his father couldn't have that, we 174 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: don't know, but we know that he was dealt with Harshley. 175 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 2: The reason he was put there was because he wasn't 176 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: obeying his father. That's it. Eli also had like at 177 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: one point in his life as a teenager, he would 178 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: lie about a lot of things and fake things. You know, 179 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: the difference between a liar and a fabricator. A liar 180 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: will say something that's not true, but a fabricator will 181 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: go to that extra step right to make you believe 182 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 2: whatever it is they're telling you. Eli was a fabricator, 183 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: you know. He would leave little notes and things around 184 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: that were negative against the Amish or whatever, and pretend 185 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: like he was a target of something that was to 186 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: gain sympathy and also probably maybe to help get him 187 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: out of the Amish he really wanted out. 188 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: So how does he meet Ida? And how old is he? 189 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: And how long is this courtship? Like a nanosecond, I'm 190 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: guessing they. 191 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: Met when they were sixteen. They were sixteen in the 192 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: same Sworts and trouber order in Wayne County, which is 193 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: you know, where a lot of the Amish live in Ohio. 194 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: They met and they, you know, participated in things that 195 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: the Amish call singing, you know where they go to 196 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 2: singings where it's like a group of date kind of 197 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: situation where a bunch of young people go together and 198 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: hang out. So she knew him from that, and she 199 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: knew him later from church when he joined before he 200 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 2: left again, so there's a long history between the two 201 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: of them. They do get married. I think she's about 202 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: twenty four when they get married, and Eli's the same age. 203 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: They're about the same age. 204 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: So they are involved. And do we know how her 205 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: parents feel about him. It sounded like not good, right. 206 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: I think the blood test. I think Amos Gingrich, who 207 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: was the grandfather that kept that box of material for 208 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: someone to see like me later, I think he knew 209 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: that this was no good from the very beginning. In fact, 210 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: when I met him thirty years ago, he said both 211 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: he and his wife said they had moments with their 212 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: daughter when they felt like she was kind of crying 213 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: out to let them know that something was wrong. And 214 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: one of the things she said to them was, no 215 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: matter how hard I try, I can't get him to 216 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: love me. Was something she said in tears and just 217 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 2: upset about it. She had had by then, she had 218 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: one baby, another one was on the way. Eli goes 219 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: that night, he doesn't come home. I don't know what 220 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: he's doing. Of course, we all know with our ideas 221 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: about what the world is like and what he might 222 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: have been like. Then we know where he's going and 223 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: what he's doing. It's no good. He's not hanging out 224 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: over at a friend's house. You know that had too 225 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: many beers and fell asleep. There's something more nefarious going on. 226 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: And she has an inkling and she's still trying though. 227 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: She's trying to almost really to the end. She's trying 228 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: to keep her marriage together because God wants her to. 229 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: If Eli is so rebellious and left the community at 230 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: one point, why do you think he would not have 231 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: just packed up and left. And if he feels like 232 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: he's gay, why would he have married a woman who 233 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: is a part of a community that he seems to 234 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: really despise. It just seems like they're two different faces 235 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: to Eli, right. 236 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: Why would he come back? Why would he marry her? 237 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 2: That whole idea, because it doesn't take very long after 238 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: that marriage for him to get everything he ever wanted. 239 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: So what is the breaking point for Eli or what 240 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: is the triggering event where things go horribly wrong for Ida. 241 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: We can't really know exactly what that was, but a 242 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: couple of things we do know. She found a camera, 243 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: and a camera's forbidden among the Amish because they cannot 244 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 2: take their picture, you know, the graven image idea. But 245 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: this wasn't an ordinary camera. It was a polaroid camera. 246 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: And you think about what kind of pictures people take 247 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: back then, this is the nineteen seventies with a polaroid camera. 248 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: They're gonna take private type pictures with a polaroid because 249 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: you can't take your naked pictures or whatever off to 250 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 2: the photo mat, you know, or the drug store, and 251 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: especially in that community, right, So I think she found 252 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: other things. And I know that the hired boy who 253 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: was living there at the time, he was twelve years old, 254 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: and he said that one time Eli told him to 255 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: go mow in the field and he went to the 256 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: spot where Eli directed him and there was a gay 257 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: magazine opened up with these pictures of naked men that 258 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: the boy said, I know that he put it there 259 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: for me to find it. So he's still living his 260 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: life secretly behind her back, and he's still trying to 261 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: get other people to kind of follow on with what 262 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 2: he's doing. He was testing that child to see if 263 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: there was any interest there. So I think Ida knew 264 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: all these things were happening, and I think at some 265 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 2: point maybe they had a conversation where she said, Eli, 266 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 2: I got to go to the bishop, this is no good. 267 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: But she never did. 268 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: What did she think the significance was. Besides this is forbidden? 269 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: What are you doing? 270 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: Here's the thing, Kate. Just the mere existence of a camera, 271 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't even matter how you're using it, just the 272 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: camera itself is like such a shocker, such a betrayal 273 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: of what the ordinan, which is the order, the rules 274 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: of the church. What the ordinance says. It says no cameras, 275 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 2: no graven images, none of that. So I mean, I 276 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 2: feel like, did she know he was taking naked pictures? 277 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: Did she find a stash of them? You know, when 278 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: she found the camera? We don't ever know that, but 279 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: we know that it was so shocking whatever it was 280 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: with that camera, that that was among the catalysts of 281 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: what happened that night in nineteen seventy seven. 282 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: Okay, well, don't leave me hanging. What's up happening? She 283 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: finds this camera. They may or may not have a 284 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: fight or a conversation about it, but she would have 285 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: been completely losing her mind over this camera. 286 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: We're looking at July nineteen seventy seven and Eli is 287 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: away from the farm. He comes home and says, I 288 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: saw lightning strike our barn. And he pulls people, all 289 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: sorts of people into that barn to show them where 290 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: he believed the lightning had struck. Even has that young boy, 291 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: the hired hand pour water on it. Nobody saw anything. 292 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: There was nothing there to indicate lightning had ever struck 293 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: the barn, but Eli kept doing that. He did it too. 294 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: And get this, Kate, the family lawyer that came to 295 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: do the will that night, he was dragged into the barn. 296 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: We have neighbors and friends popped into that barn to 297 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: see where this supposed to event happen. And lo and behold, 298 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: at midnight, hired boy, that twelve year old boy wakes 299 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: up because there's flames. He runs down the stairs to 300 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: find Ida and Eli and Danny the little boy. Eli 301 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: and Ida are gone, little boy sleeping in his crib 302 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: and this young guy says to himself, why didn't they 303 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: wake me up? What's wrong? Something's terrible's happening and they 304 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: didn't wake me up. I'm here to help. That was 305 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: his job. He goes out to find out what's going on. 306 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 2: He sees the burning barn and Eli meets him at 307 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: the doorway, and Eli says, go to the neighbors to 308 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: have them call for the fire department. The boy who's 309 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: scared to death because he's an Amish boy, now he's 310 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: got to go over to the English people's house in 311 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: the middle of the night. He's scared, okay, He starts 312 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: running to go down there to get the fire department 313 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: and he sees Ida laying by the side of the 314 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: barn and he runs over to her and she's motionless. 315 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: He comes back to Eli and says, something's wrong with 316 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: Ida Eli, and Eli says, oh, yes, get the rescue 317 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: squad two. So in that moment, that twelve year old 318 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: thought it was a very Raine's response, right, that that 319 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: man whose wife was laying there, you know, maybe dead. 320 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: He wasn't sure then, didn't seem to even notice or 321 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: care about her until he brought it up. 322 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: So the boy runs and goes to the neighbor's house, 323 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: knocks on the door, and I'm assuming they get help. 324 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: The help is on the way. 325 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, the help is on the way. And people start 326 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: showing up. In fact, a couple of people that show up. 327 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: One is the lawyer who said, oh, by the way. 328 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: He tells the sheriff, by the way, I was here 329 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 2: when we were working on the will today and I 330 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: saw where that fire was going to start. The Sheriff, 331 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: Jim Frost, does something kind of strange that night though, 332 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: when his captain arrives to do the crime scene evaluation, 333 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: and it's his job to do that, Sheriff Frost sends 334 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: him away, says, there's nothing to see here was a 335 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: terrible accident. 336 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, let's go back, because now I have 337 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: a question when law enforcement has to intervene. This is 338 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: not like on a reservation where they would have their 339 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: own force. They just have to bend to the will 340 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: of the English side. And we have a sheriff's apartment 341 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: that's coming in exactly. 342 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: They follow our laws. They don't have a special you know, 343 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: there's no Amish law enforcement officer. They go in there 344 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: and they trust that the law enforcement people will do 345 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: their job. But that night, the case is closed about 346 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: what happened to Ida within about three or four hours 347 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: because Eli says she had a bad heart and that 348 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: she must have had a heart attack. So the sheriff 349 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 2: writes that down, and later the coroner writes that down 350 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: as the cause of her death a bad heart. They 351 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: make no mention that at midnight she was wearing her 352 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 2: daytime clothing. I talked a little bit about how they 353 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 2: have to pin their dresses. You know, it's a tedious, 354 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 2: cumbersome process. It's not easy to get dressed, especially in 355 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: the middle of nine and plus they do have nighttime 356 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: clothing that she could have easily worn outside. But she 357 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: was in full daytime clothes down to her scarf heads 358 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: covering over her hair. So she died of heart attack 359 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 2: and they just kind of put it away. 360 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: But it would be odd for them to not notice 361 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: the rigor mortis. Right, like, if he had killed her 362 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: much earlier in the day, she would have been in 363 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: rigger already and her daytime clothes. 364 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: No, yeah, I would think she might have been. But 365 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: here's the thing. When they do the autopsy, they don't 366 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: even take her clothes off. For one, they don't do 367 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: any like this is a supposedly a bad heart. No 368 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: incision is made, no examination of the heart is made. 369 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: They do test for a smoke inhalation or whatever, and 370 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 2: that's the only thing to test for. And it comes 371 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: back that, you know, negligible amount like the same like 372 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 2: if you and I were at our little kid's birthday 373 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: party and someone bloo out of candle, that's how much 374 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 2: you'd have in your lungs of carbon monoxide. Right, So 375 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 2: they really didn't do anything. And the puzzle to all 376 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: of this story and the homi's wife is why, And 377 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 2: of course I know the answer. 378 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: And you're gonna tell us. I hope I'm going. 379 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: To I'm not going to leave you hanging. I mean, 380 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: Sheriff Frost was also gay. What the sheriff was gay? 381 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 2: Eli was gay? And get this, two years earlier, Sheriff 382 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: Frost enlisted Eli to be an undercover operative and make 383 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: a marijuana buy as an Amish person. Kate, it's the 384 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: most ridiculous thing, you know, undercover Amish whatever. It's a show. 385 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 2: It's a bad show, but it's a show, right. 386 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: But it sounds like Eli would be the right man 387 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: for the job. If anybody could pull it off. 388 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. So Eli makes this drug buy 389 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: and almost immediately gets cold feet because the people he 390 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: bought it from note was him that he fingers them 391 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: or whatever you want to say. So Eli says that 392 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 2: you know that he didn't want to testify, and they say, well, 393 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: you have to testify. The sheriff says, you have to testify. 394 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: And then the next thing we know is Eli gets 395 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: these threatening letters, and the threatening letters are saying we're 396 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 2: watching you, We're going to do something to you. You 397 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 2: better get out of here, you know, do not testify. 398 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: There's a series of three type letters, and the family 399 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 2: that Eli's staying with show the letters to the sheriff, 400 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: and the sheriff dismisses them. And then next Eli says, 401 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 2: I see a truck and a car from out of 402 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: state park near where he was working at this dairy barn, 403 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: and there's two men. I'm scared they passed that information along. 404 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: Nothing happens. And then finally about a month after Eli 405 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: does this drug buy, he's found in the barn stabbed. 406 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 2: There is a pitchfork that had pierced him, There's an 407 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 2: arc of blood on the wall, there is a bloody rock, 408 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: and Eli says, two guys jumped to me. Well, I 409 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: was about to do some milking and beat the crap 410 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: out of me, and I can't do this. 411 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: And when was this in relation to Ida? 412 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 2: Two years less than two years before she's killed. Okay, 413 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: get this, This is where the shoe falls off. Eli 414 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 2: then confesses, I made it all up and I stabbed myself. 415 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Now, why why did he do that? 416 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: To get out of it? He didn't want to testify 417 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: or whatever, but he went to remember I talked about 418 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: how he would do things like that. Wow. They found 419 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: out that the letters had been written on the typewriter 420 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: in the dairy farm. The sheriff had to kind of 421 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: eat cro and say that he was an unstable Amish 422 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: man and that he had hurt himself because the people 423 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: in the Amish community in that area were terrified that 424 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: this man was almost murdered, so they had to come 425 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: out with it. But here's the thing. On the night 426 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: I'd have died, Jim Frost, who did all of that investigation, 427 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 2: never once mentioned it to anybody that Eli was a 428 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 2: known liar, a known fabricator and should never have been believed. 429 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: Is the implication here that Jim Frost, the sheriff, and 430 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: Eli had a sexual relationship. 431 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: I don't know that they did, but I know that 432 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 2: that is a connection between the two of them in 433 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: a very small community. How did Eli get enlisted to 434 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: be the undercover operative? You know? How did he even 435 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: know Eli? And all of that? I mean to me, 436 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 2: it's a very small pool in a small town and 437 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 2: a small county for these gay men to meet up. 438 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 2: So I know certainly that he knew Eli was gay. 439 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: So whether they had a relationship or not, I don't know. 440 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 2: We didn't even really know any meaning when I say 441 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: we the people in the story did not know he 442 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: was gay until a few years after he left Ohio 443 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 2: for a job in Florida to be down there in 444 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: Broward County by Miami as a deputy. Is found stabbed 445 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 2: in a restroom. He said it was a robbery, But 446 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: the cops down there called up Ohio and said, is 447 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 2: it possible that he's gay because it was a gay 448 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: restroom and I think we think it was a lover's 449 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 2: triangle or some kind of thing. And that was the 450 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 2: conclusion that he had gotten involved in that down there, 451 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: And they said, yeah, he was gay because he was 452 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: living with one of his deputies after his divorce. And 453 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 2: when I think about that time and these people, I'm 454 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 2: thinking they had a lot to lose, Like Jim Fross 455 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: had a lot to lose. I mean, he was the 456 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: youngest sheriff ever elected for Wayne County. That was a 457 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: pretty big deal. He was thought of very highly. He 458 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: was smart, he was good, but he was dealing with 459 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: problems that he could not deal with in an open 460 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 2: way because of who he was. Right, So, I mean 461 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: think of the struggle that. It's kind of like with 462 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: Eli too. Eli's in the Amish. You know. It's like, 463 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: if you think about it, it's like nineteen seventy seven, 464 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. All that is a long time ago 465 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: and a lot has changed. And the fact that Eli 466 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: was gay didn't make him a serial killer. The fact 467 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: that Frost was gay didn't make him a bad person, 468 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: but it did make him cover up a crime. 469 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: So there is no autopsy. Am I understanding that? 470 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: Right? 471 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: Okay? So in the sixteen hundreds, which I was just 472 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: dealing with the case from the sixteen hundreds, of course, 473 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: the women were the ones who did the dressing of 474 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 1: a body for burial out of propriety, and this, of 475 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: course let a lot of murderers go free because the 476 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: men who would have been, you know, the corners at 477 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: the time, such as they were, would not have wanted 478 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: to undress a woman and a lot of stuff slipped by. 479 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: Is that what happened in this case or why would 480 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: an English quote unquote corner or medical examiner not have 481 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: insisted on it. 482 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question. And the reason was 483 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 2: because of Jim Frost in his relationship with the county 484 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: corner j T. Questell. This is not a gay couple thing. 485 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: It's a father and son, very close relationship between the 486 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: two of them. And I think that what happened the 487 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: night I'da died and why it was closed so quickly, 488 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 2: was this kind of a I need you to do 489 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: this favor for me. I don't know, like if Eli 490 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: said to Jim Frost, you know, I'll out you or 491 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: whatever whatever words they would use back then, or you know, 492 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: everyone will know if you arrest me. Something happened that 493 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 2: night in three hours that had to investigator sent away 494 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 2: and had no autopsy done. Something happened in short order. 495 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: What was it? We don't really get to know that. 496 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: But I can tell you that I interviewed the coroner 497 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: years and years ago, he's gone now, and he said, 498 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 2: I think we made a mistake. No shit, yeah, I 499 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: think we made a mistake. And then the family doctor 500 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: who was the assistant coroner, he came into the picture. 501 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: He was on vacation right when Ida died, and he 502 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: came back after she was dead, and he said she 503 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: had no bad heart, her heart was fine. 504 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: Well, twenty six year old, perfectly healthy, healthier than probably 505 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: most people in nineteen seventy seven, based on I'm sure 506 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: what they're eating and how they're growing it, and everything 507 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: is unprocessed. Okay, well I'll just push my incredulous feelings aside. 508 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: I mean, that's the whole thing when I think about 509 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: all of this stuff, all these red flags, whether it's 510 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 2: the lawyer there that night, whether it's the fact she 511 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: was in nighttime clothing, whether it was that all the 512 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: lights were on at midnight. Okay, that's another thing I 513 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: didn't mention. Was And when I say lights, it's not 514 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 2: like us flipping a switch. These kerosene lights have to 515 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: be lit. What were they doing on at midnight when 516 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: they go to bed at nine o'clock or eight o'clock there, 517 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 2: you know, it's dark. Why were they on? And who 518 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: does that in the middle of a fire? So many things? 519 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: Okay, So moving forward, she is found that of a 520 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: heart attack. Do we ever conclusively it sounds like, no, 521 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: we don't ever conclusively figure out how Ida died. 522 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: No, we don't. But we do know something I think 523 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: is really interesting, which is one of Jim Frost's lovers 524 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: told me this thirty years ago, and he said it 525 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: again this last go around when I wrote the homage Wife, 526 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: was that Jim Frost told him that Ida had been 527 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: hit in the back of the head with a rock 528 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 2: and that she'd been murdered that night. But he this 529 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: is the line the guy says, but he said he 530 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: couldn't prove it. And when I think about that, like, okay, 531 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: that's why I'm so curious, really kate about that head covering? 532 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: Why does that stay on during the autopsy and in 533 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: the you know, I do have like four little photos 534 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: of the from the autopsy. Why does that head covering stand? 535 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: What are they covering up? Are they covering up a 536 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: bashed in head? Do you see what I mean? 537 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 538 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: And like, why was there no external exam of the 539 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 2: full body. She did have scratches and some bruises on 540 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 2: her face. They say, well, maybe that was the resuscitation effort. 541 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: Well maybe, But here's the thing. If you only interview 542 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: one witness at a crime scene, only one out of 543 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: a dozen people that were there that day, and you 544 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 2: take that person's word for what happened that night, you're 545 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 2: in a heap of trouble. And the only person Jim 546 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: Frost interviewed that night was. 547 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: Eli, and Eli said what she saw the fire. She 548 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: had a heart attack. She died from fright, which I've 549 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: written about many times from the eighteen hundreds. 550 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 2: Yes, she died of fright. She had a bad heart, 551 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: and she was going after puppies, and then later he 552 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: would say kittens, and later he would say milk vats. 553 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 2: And then he would tell over the years that she was, 554 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: you know, writing in a car and there was an 555 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: accident so we hit. You know, all these different stories 556 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 2: about how she died. 557 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine that Ida's family thinks this is really 558 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: what happened. 559 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: Do they? None of them thought that. That's why, even 560 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 2: though they would tell me things like come and see us, 561 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 2: but park behind the barn and that box of letters 562 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 2: that Amos and Lizzie Gingrich had collected all those years. 563 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: There were like four or five letters from me when 564 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: I was a young person writing to them, and I 565 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 2: keep thinking, you know, like all along, we were all 566 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: the same, We all believe she was murdered. 567 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: So he gets away. It sounds like there's no charges, 568 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: no investigation. Corner signs off on heart attack. How does 569 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: life after this unfold for Eli? And he has a 570 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: son named Danny, that's. 571 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: Right, So almost immediately after Ida's death, you know what 572 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: the Homige do is they do a barn raising and 573 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: Eli doesn't come out. He stays in the house and 574 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 2: he is just says he's a wreck, and he's talking 575 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: weird and all this kind of stuff. They build a barn, 576 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: but Eli tells him I don't want the barn built 577 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: as it was. I want horse dolls in there. Well, 578 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 2: this is very disturbing to the Amish because they're not 579 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: into horses like anybody else. They care about dairy, right, 580 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: So Eli had them reconfigure that this new barn into 581 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: a horse barn and then lo and behold. Probably within 582 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 2: a year after that, he goes electric leaves the Amish, 583 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: and then a couple of years after that he sells 584 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: the farm to an English family. It's not against the English, 585 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: but it's like it should be kept within the Amish, right. 586 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: It's very hard, it's a hard life, and land is expensive. 587 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: So he sold his land and he moved away. 588 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: So he takes Danny. What kind of father does he 589 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: seem to be? From anybody in the Amish community or 590 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: in the English community, do we have observations of what 591 00:28:59,400 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: he was like? 592 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: Eli presents an okay picture of what it was like 593 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: to be a dad when he's in Ohio. He is 594 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: attentive to his son. He's very strict. Danny has a 595 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: speech fluency problem, so he's say, stutterer, and Eli's kind 596 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: of trying to work with that a little bit. He 597 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: takes Danny with him everywhere, and all of that looks really, 598 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: really good. By the time he leaves Ohio, we have 599 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: some disturbing things happening where Eli's taking Danny to these parties. 600 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: You can call him an orgy or whatever you want 601 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: to call him. What Yes, he's taking his little boy, 602 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: and his little boy is acting out. He's touching people 603 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: men in a way that disturbs and shocks whether he's 604 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: acting like his father or what. There's something going on there. 605 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: And I mean I was lots of people told me 606 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: about this, lots of guys that knew Eli and dated 607 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: Eli said one time Danny came up to me and 608 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: grabbed me in the crotch, and the guy said, I 609 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: was out of there the next day. It's like something 610 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 2: was terribly wrong. And then it gets worse. If Danny's speech, 611 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: did you curates? He can hardly speak at some point, 612 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: he's so messed up. And then they moved from Colorado, 613 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: they moved down to Texas, And that's really where the 614 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: story takes its turn. 615 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: How old is Danny when all this happens, When he 616 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: becomes really unable to speak, and it sounds like clearly 617 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: experiencing some kind of abuse from his father, be it 618 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: sexual or physical or all of it certainly emotional. 619 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: Between the years of six and nine, there's a degeneration 620 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: of his abilities to speak. He's starting to lose that ability. 621 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: More and more teachers mention it. Eli doesn't seem to 622 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: be concerned about it. And when Eli's roommate down in 623 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 2: Texas in nineteen eighty five turns up dead and Eli's questioned. 624 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 2: Danny's there at the police station being questioned too, sitting 625 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: there with his dad, and Eli says, oh, Glenn Pritchett, 626 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: my roommate, left to go with his family. I talked 627 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: to him on the phone yesterday. He's fine. What Eli 628 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: didn't know at that time was they had found Glenn's 629 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: book and they believed, you know, that Eli was the 630 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: was the prime suspect. 631 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: So they're living together in Texas just as friends, as 632 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: far as you know. Unpack that story a little bit 633 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: for me. 634 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 2: Glenn was he had been served in the Coastguard. He's 635 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: a was a young handsome guy who had two children 636 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: and an ex wife up in Montana, and somehow he 637 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: ends up down in Texas working for Eli's construction firm. 638 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: I don't think he was gay or a lover of 639 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: he might have been. All I know is that Glenn, 640 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: you know, loved his family and was going to return 641 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: to Montana, but never did because Eli killed him. Here's 642 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: the problem. Glenn's dead, so we'd never could hear his 643 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: side of the story. And Eli's a liar. I mean, 644 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: Eli has not told us the truth about anything in 645 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: his life. So when Glenn ends up missing and then 646 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: later dead. We can presume a couple of things. One, 647 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: it could have been a lover's quarrel if that's what 648 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: was going on. We could also presume to be maybe 649 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: drug related because Eli was selling drugs at that time too. 650 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: What does the physical evidence tell the investigators when they 651 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: do find Glenn's body. 652 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: Right, he had been shot with a rifle and his 653 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: body had been left in a ditch out in the country. 654 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: They think that what they did the trajectory of the 655 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: of the shoot and it looked like Glenn was probably 656 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: laying down when he was shot in the head with 657 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: this rifle. That was basically it. Here's the thing that's 658 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 2: funny thing, and you probably know this better than anybody 659 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: I could ever talk to, is that we can't really 660 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: know the motive of anything. The motive is a story 661 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 2: that the prosecutor or the police tell people to help 662 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: them make sense of the incomprehensible, right. I Mean, sometimes 663 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: it's easy to say, oh, she did it for the 664 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: insurance money or whatever, But a lot of these murders, 665 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 2: it's so complex. Were they drinking, was alcohol a factor? 666 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: Was it drugs and a deal gone wrong, you know? 667 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: Or was it a lover's fight. We don't get to 668 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: know any of that. All we get to know is 669 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: that Eli's pattern of lies and deceit matched up with 670 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: all the things that indicated the killer. He was the killer, 671 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: meaning he had said he talked to Glenn on the phone, 672 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: when of course Glenn was already dead. He said, you 673 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 2: know that he got a message from Glenn, and here 674 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: was the message. You know, things that are just completely 675 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: ludicrous because Glenn is. 676 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: Dead well, And you know you mentioned the motives of 677 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: killers and are always a mystery. You read about friends 678 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: and family of the killers who we know are the killers, 679 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: and they say he did not do it. She did 680 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: not do it, because why would she do X, Y 681 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: and z. It doesn't make any sense. And I always 682 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: think to myself, people kill for the stupidest reasons. And 683 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: Paul Hols will always say fact doesn't matter to a killer. 684 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: It's their perception and that is it. It does not matter. So, 685 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: no matter what you think, if someone is shot over 686 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: a piece of gum, it meant something to them. It 687 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: might not mean something to our society, but to them, 688 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: they have a set of rules and this is why 689 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: they're doing things. 690 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: You're exactly right, I wrote a book about a woman 691 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 2: who killed her husband and a stranger to get money 692 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: so she could open a tropical fish store. That was it. 693 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: I remember that story. Right. 694 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: When we think of that, it's like to us, what 695 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: a ludicrous reason, But to her it was everything she 696 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: ever wanted. 697 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: When does Glenn die? In relation to when Danny eventually. 698 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: Dies, about says six months apart. 699 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 1: So Eli takes off with Danny. I'm assuming after Glenn 700 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: goes missing. 701 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 2: That's right, he takes off of Danny and drops Danny 702 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 2: off at a foster family really friends, and the guy 703 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 2: was one of Eli's lovers. The wife, I don't know 704 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: she knew that. That's where Danny spends that whole summer. Well, 705 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: his dad is really trapesing around the country. He's also 706 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: fabricating things, like he's writing letters to the grandparents pretending 707 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: that Danny's with him. You know, all that kind of 708 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 2: bullshit's going on. Six months or so after everything's happened 709 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 2: down in Texas, Eli says, I'm coming up to Wyoming 710 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: to pick up my son and take him to Ohio 711 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 2: for Christmas. Now, the day that he picks him up 712 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 2: is the day that Danny dies. 713 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm so confused by what Eli is doing. Would not 714 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: life be easier on that man if he would just 715 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: leave his kids somewhere anywhere, drop him on the steps 716 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: of a church. Why would he continue to drag him 717 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: from place to place and then insist on picking him up? 718 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: If this is clearly cramping what he's trying to do. 719 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 2: This is the easiest answer, And it's so true. He 720 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: knew too much. Danny was nine years old. What did 721 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 2: he see at those parties that his father did to him? 722 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 2: What did he see with Glenn's murder? You know what 723 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: did he overhear his father talk about? He saw everything? 724 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: That little boy saw it all. And I believe that, 725 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 2: and so did the police that investigated the case way 726 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: back then. Was that Danny it was either a witness 727 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 2: to that murder or he knew things about it and 728 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: he was too old to shut up. 729 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: So how does Danny become its little boy blue? Is 730 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: that what his moniker was when they found is an 731 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: identified body? 732 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: That's right? So Eli says, I picked him up. I'm 733 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: going to take him for Christmas to see our almost relatives, whom, 734 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 2: by the way, he hated. He picked up the boy, 735 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: and you know, driving along and these back roads, and 736 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: he gets to Nebraska and he claims that he noticed 737 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 2: Danny wasn't moving, and he it's the middle of the night, 738 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 2: it's dark, it's like sub zero temperatures. He says, you know, 739 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 2: I tried to bring him to life. I brought him 740 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 2: and laid him in the snow by the side of 741 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 2: the road and prayed over him for hours, trying to 742 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: get God, just why is God doing this to me? 743 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: And then finally he drives off. But as he drives off, 744 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: he immediately checks in with a lover that he had 745 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 2: previously arranged to see. You know, he's doing this route 746 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 2: of guys he's meeting along the way on his way home. 747 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 2: And when he gets there, he tells the man that 748 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: my boy didn't want to come with me this time. 749 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: After all. He wanted to go skiing in Wyoming. And oh, 750 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: by the way, here's his soccer ball. You might like 751 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 2: to have it because he doesn't like soccer anymore. 752 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: How bizarre, I mean, just bizarre behavior. What happens next. 753 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: What basically what happens next is then ELI. For the 754 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: next year and a half, he is having like a 755 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: woman call and pretend to be Danny on the phone 756 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: to people. He's writing letters where he's kind of mimics 757 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: a child's handwriting to the grandparents. They have these letters 758 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 2: in the box that I looked at, you know where 759 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: Danny saying, I like Wyoming and I'm learning to do 760 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 2: this and it's really fun here, all while the kid's dead. Okay, 761 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: so he's trying to cover up that his child's dead. 762 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 2: What he doesn't expect probably will ever happen, is that 763 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: Reader's Digest is going to do this story, and the 764 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 2: almost are going to read Reader's Digest, and the almost 765 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 2: are going to put two and two together. They're going 766 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 2: to say that sounds like Danny, because none of us 767 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 2: believe Danny is alive. 768 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,919 Speaker 1: Was there anything distinctive about Danny based on the fact 769 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: that he was Amish? How would they know? 770 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 2: Well, they had hair from his brush. We did a 771 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 2: DNA thing with the brush from where he was living 772 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: in Wyoming, and they also pulled his fingerprints off of 773 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 2: the Velveteen Rabbit book that he had read. So that's 774 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 2: how they made the connection to that was Danny. But 775 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: this is another mystery kit here. After multiple attempts to 776 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: determine what the cause of death is for this child. 777 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: We still don't know. 778 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: Because his body was too deteriorated or what. 779 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 2: His face was partially gnawed off because he sat out 780 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 2: there for like ten days in the snow and freezing 781 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: a thong and animals got to him. But they did, 782 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: you know, multiple autopsies and pathologists looked at it. They 783 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 2: said there was a little bit of respiratory distress, not 784 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: a bad cold, not life threatening and anything like that. 785 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: If there was petikia or something in the eyes, those 786 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: eyes were gone, So we don't know if he had 787 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: been smothered or what it was. How does a little 788 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 2: boy end up in a ditch? 789 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: Could it be determined that this was murder? Could it 790 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 1: be just that he got I mean, I'm just thinking 791 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: as a defense attorney that he just got sick and 792 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: kind of wandered off and fell into a ditch and 793 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: this was natural causes and it just nobody ever found him. 794 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 2: Right. Well, I don't know about that, but I know 795 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 2: that you know, Eli was eventually charged in that case, 796 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 2: and he was marched with abandoning a human body and 797 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 2: failure to report to death, and he received eighteen months 798 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 2: in the penitentiary up there in Lincoln. So he did 799 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 2: serve that time, and then he went off to the 800 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 2: trial down in Texas. But I think that whole mystery 801 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 2: of how did that boy died? I still feel there 802 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: are people probably who know a little bit about that, 803 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: like something more than I could find out, Like what 804 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 2: was the real reason the Foster family didn't want to 805 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 2: talk about it and still don't, So I wonder what 806 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 2: they knew or if they were worried that something was 807 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: going to happen to Danny, because maybe Danny had told 808 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 2: them things. 809 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: So he is on the run for about what a 810 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: year and a half until they figure out who Danny is. 811 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: They track him down. They clearly can't prove murder because 812 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: he just got tampering with a corpse or whatever that 813 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: charge was. Eighteen months he comes out and then is 814 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: an immediate arrest for who is it Glenn or is 815 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: it Ida or both of them? 816 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 2: It's Glenn. He gets arrested for Glenn's murder. He's extra 817 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 2: dieded right after he finished just as eight months sentence 818 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 2: in Lincoln. He goes down to Texas then to be 819 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 2: tried for the Glenn's murder. 820 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: And what's the evidence according to prosecutors in that case, 821 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: that is just going to be a slam dunk. 822 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: They hope. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of 823 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 2: evidence there other than Eli's lies. It's a circumstantial case. 824 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 2: They can't really prove that the gun was his. They 825 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 2: can't prove where the murder exactly happened. It was it 826 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 2: at the house and the body was moved. There's no 827 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: real evidence there. What's his undoing is all of his 828 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 2: lies and cover up after the murder and his flight, 829 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 2: you know, this indication of guilt. I was there for 830 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: that trial and it was only a five day trial. 831 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: Like strategically, the defense did not put on a case 832 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 2: after the prosecution arrested. They said they felt like they 833 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: didn't have to because basically they couldn't. 834 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: So they never found the murder weapon, no wow, And 835 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: they never found anybody who Eli bragged to about Glenn 836 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 1: at all. He kept his mouth shut, that's right. 837 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting point. It's like he would talk 838 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 2: freely about different things that might have happened to Ida, 839 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 2: whether it was the car wreck or whether or whatever 840 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 2: you know, that had killed her, But he really never 841 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 2: that I know of, never really spoke to anybody about 842 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: Glenn and about what happened that. 843 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: Night, So what ends up happening In Glenn's case. It 844 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: sounds like a really shaky case. There's no physical evidence. 845 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: There is just sort of this evidence of guilt, which 846 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: can be interpreted a lot of different way. He could say, 847 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: I'm scared my wife died. Somebody accused me of it 848 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: being circumstances. There seem to be a lot of reasons 849 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: why he could take off. 850 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, he could have put on a defense. I think 851 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 2: if he did put on a defense, maybe the outcome 852 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 2: would be different. But he didn't, and it was a 853 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 2: bench trial and the judge said, you presented enough evidence, 854 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: You're guilty, and he was sentenced to forty years. Here's 855 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 2: what I'm hoping. I'm hoping the wheels of justice kind 856 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 2: of grind a little bit now because there's a new 857 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 2: sheriff coming in and I met with him on my 858 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 2: trip and I believe he will do the right thing, 859 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 2: which is all we're asking for is change the cause 860 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: of death from natural causes to at least suspicious death 861 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,399 Speaker 2: or death on known because putting it to her bad 862 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 2: heart is complete crap. We just want Wayne County to say, look, 863 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 2: we didn't do the right thing here. We totally blew 864 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 2: this case, and by doing so, there's a bunch of 865 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 2: other people who are dead now. 866 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: So what happens ultimately to Sheriff Jim Frost, who it 867 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: sounds like was the emphasis of this whole cover up 868 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: to begin with. 869 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, Sheriffrost is a very very sad fall after all 870 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 2: of this. After he gets questioned about the incident in 871 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 2: the bathroom in Miami, he then ends up going downward 872 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 2: in his alcoholism problem. He ends up working as a 873 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 2: security guard for the Marriott Hotels in Houston, and then 874 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 2: he's found later with a bullet in his head suicide, 875 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 2: laying on his couch, surrounded by hundreds and hundreds of 876 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 2: beer cans. 877 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: Tell me what ends up ultimately happening with Eli. He 878 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: gets forty years, which seems too low to me. 879 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 2: He goes off to prison. He's going to serve this 880 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,399 Speaker 2: forty year sentence, and I'm thinking back then he'll never out. 881 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 2: So he serves eleven years, he gets out and it's paroled, 882 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 2: and then it's death by suicide after that for him. 883 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 2: He's found also like Jim Frost, laying on the couch, 884 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 2: this time instead of a bolt in his head, he 885 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 2: slit his wrists and bled. 886 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: Out, well, what a terrible ending. For two. It sounds 887 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: like very bad people, you know, involved in this story. 888 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,479 Speaker 1: And you've got a child who was murdered, a wife 889 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: who sounds like was murdered. You've got a roommate who 890 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like he did anything wrong was murdered. And 891 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: someone who is an habitual liar who was raised in 892 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: a community which was meant to, you know, be as 893 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: honest and pure as they come. And I know that 894 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: I am not a delusion enough to know that there 895 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: aren't bad people within the Almish community, but my goodness, 896 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,919 Speaker 1: this just seems like this must have shaken them when 897 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 1: the news came out. 898 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely did. And here's the point about the Amish. This 899 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 2: is the funny thing. They are just like us, okay. 900 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 2: And we think we hold them to a higher standard 901 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 2: of ethics and all that, and we think that they 902 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 2: are quaint and honest and all of that, and that's true. 903 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 2: But there are a few bad apples right in every barrel, 904 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that. But ultimately, the almost love 905 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 2: their children, they love their families. They're doing the best 906 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 2: that they can and it's not easy. 907 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 908 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 909 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 910 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 911 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 912 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 913 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 914 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 915 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 916 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and 917 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 918 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod