WEBVTT - Coming Soon: The Man-o-Sphere

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<v Speaker 1>We have a cool surprise coming this year. It's our

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<v Speaker 1>first total crossover partnership season with a podcast called Non Toxic,

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<v Speaker 1>hosted by Daniel Penny. Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Daniel Penny. I am the host of Non Toxic.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a journalist and critic who's been working in the

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<v Speaker 2>intersection between climate and culture for a long while now,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've been particularly interested in the ways that masculinity

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<v Speaker 2>and the climate crisis seem to be increasingly entwined together

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<v Speaker 2>in our politics and our culture. I've been working on

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<v Speaker 2>this show for a few years, but I'm really excited

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<v Speaker 2>to take things to the next level with the help

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<v Speaker 2>of Drilled and Amy, and we have a really exciting

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<v Speaker 2>season planned of a Non Toxic ex Drilled collaboration.

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel's here with me today. We're going to talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about what he's been doing and what we

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<v Speaker 1>can expect in this season.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, Daniel, Hey me.

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel. Can you tell us a little bit about what

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<v Speaker 1>were you working on before you got into doing a podcast?

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<v Speaker 1>Were you writing about this stuff? Is that what prompted

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, I've had kind of a securitous route, I guess

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<v Speaker 2>in all of this, I'm mostly thought of myself as

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<v Speaker 2>a writer. I started my career more in the cultural

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<v Speaker 2>criticism space. I was writing a lot for like the

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<v Speaker 2>Boston Review had a big early essay about Milo Yanopolis

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<v Speaker 2>and the aesthetics of fascism back in like twenty sixteen

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<v Speaker 2>or twenty seventeen. I don't know if anybody remembers him, but.

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<v Speaker 1>I do. Yeah, it's wild that he's kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>out of the picture. I feel like his brand of

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<v Speaker 1>stuff is kind of mainstream alma it is.

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<v Speaker 2>He was ahead of his time. I think the problem

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<v Speaker 2>was that he spoke openly in defense of pedophilia, and

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<v Speaker 2>that was a bridge too far for even you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the genocidal maniacs in far right. So I was doing

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of cultural criticism around kind of politics the Internet,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was also writing about art and fashion, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'd always had an interest in sustainability and was increasingly

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<v Speaker 2>trying to take my fashion writing in that direction. I

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<v Speaker 2>had a good friend Emily Chan, who's the sustainability editor

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<v Speaker 2>at British Vogue, and I was writing things for GQ,

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<v Speaker 2>and I felt like, we why can't I do more

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<v Speaker 2>of that? But I kept getting rejections from editors. So

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<v Speaker 2>like guys don't care about this, Like nobody's reading this.

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<v Speaker 2>And I got pretty annoyed with that line. I felt

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<v Speaker 2>like I couldn't possibly be true that, like male readers

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<v Speaker 2>were just totally uninterested in any discussion of the climate crisis.

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<v Speaker 1>Or it's really interesting wow, So this is like GQ

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<v Speaker 1>standard men's magazine and stuff. We're saying, yeah, that's really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting wow.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was coming back. I was on a train

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<v Speaker 2>back from like a London Fashion Week event and coming

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<v Speaker 2>back to Cambridge, where I was living at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just thought, like, this can't be all there is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like, this is not this is not really

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<v Speaker 2>what I set out to do, and this isn't what

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<v Speaker 2>I care about, and I need to do something else,

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<v Speaker 2>And if editors are telling me no, then I need

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<v Speaker 2>to just strike out on my own and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>get back to my roots a bit as a critic

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<v Speaker 2>and essayist and someone who thinks about culture more broadly

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<v Speaker 2>and deeply than I felt I was being paid to

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<v Speaker 2>do at the time. So yeah, I just I thought, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I care about climate I think other men do, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think the conversation, especially at that time, it felt

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<v Speaker 2>like all of the people that I was talking to

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<v Speaker 2>about it were women, and that especially like in the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of fashion sustainability space, it was a very female

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<v Speaker 2>dominated space, at least in terms of you was talking.

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<v Speaker 2>It didn't mean that the people who actually had the

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<v Speaker 2>levers of power were all women. In fact, I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's the opposite, but in terms of who the faces were.

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought like, oh, that's interesting, what's that about.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it was also just a time where

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<v Speaker 2>more and more I was seeing kind of entertaate and

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of rise of the in cell and all

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<v Speaker 2>of these kind of related politics of grievance around masculinity,

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<v Speaker 2>and they seemed to often be talking about certain ideas

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<v Speaker 2>related to the nature of men and women, and the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of the natural was very important to them in

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<v Speaker 2>one way or another. And then it actually really kind

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<v Speaker 2>of came together when Andrew Tate got arrested, because all

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<v Speaker 2>of that started with this Twitter exchange between him and Greta.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh I don't think I ever even knew that. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So he was boasting about his collection of gas guzzling cars,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to like troll her.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's like how they found him, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, so then they had this kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>back and forth, and it's I've never gotten confirmation that

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<v Speaker 2>this is true or not from like the Romanian police.

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<v Speaker 2>I've never seen any documentation proving it. But the story

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<v Speaker 2>was that there was like a sort of Romanian brand

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<v Speaker 2>of pizza box that was in one of the videos

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<v Speaker 2>or photographs that had released, and they used it to

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<v Speaker 2>confirm that he was in the country and issue there,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sex trafficking warrant for his arrest because I think, again,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a legend that they couldn't confirm that he

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<v Speaker 2>was in Romania at the time because I guess he

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't leaving his man lair and it was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the presence of this, but it just seemed like, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all right here.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like well connected. Wow, Yeah, that's really interesting, and.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, okay, I just need to do a season

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<v Speaker 2>interview people who are working in this space and see

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<v Speaker 2>what I can find. And yeah, been going for a

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<v Speaker 2>few years now.

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<v Speaker 1>That's so interesting. I don't know if we've ever talked

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<v Speaker 1>about this, but I actually started out doing arts and

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<v Speaker 1>culture writing too.

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<v Speaker 2>I always thought you were started out as a business writer.

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<v Speaker 1>No, although I did spend some time doing that as well. Know,

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<v Speaker 1>I applied for an internship at this arts and culture magazine,

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<v Speaker 1>and I showed up the first day like did my thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I showed up the second day and the

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<v Speaker 1>entire editorial staff had quit because the publisher was this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of stereotypical megalomaniac monster that was really art work

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<v Speaker 1>for So he made me and the other intern temporary

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<v Speaker 1>co managing editors and was like, oh my god, let's

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<v Speaker 1>see how you guys do. And then the next day

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<v Speaker 1>the other intern showed up five minutes late, so he

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<v Speaker 1>fired her.

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<v Speaker 2>What So that was a magazine of one person.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was me. The art director was still there,

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<v Speaker 1>he had not left, and then the creative director was

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<v Speaker 1>in New York, so he was still around because he

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<v Speaker 1>didn't actually have to deal day to day with this guy.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was just me, the creative director and the

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<v Speaker 1>art director. And I mean, I was like twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>He's like, okay, it's you kid. We've got an issue

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<v Speaker 1>do with the printers in two weeks. And I talked

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<v Speaker 1>to the creative director and he's like, Yeah, this is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be our first politics issue, and we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to do an interview with Ralph Nader and an interview

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<v Speaker 1>with Noam Chomsky and it's going to be really cool.

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<v Speaker 1>This was like, had been up to that point almost

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<v Speaker 1>exclusively a fashion an art magazine, but this guy was

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<v Speaker 1>trying to like inject politics. It was like two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and five, I want to say something like.

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<v Speaker 2>That interesting and Ralph Nader was still relevant.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah to this guy anyway. Anyway, So I was like, Okay, cool,

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<v Speaker 1>when are those interviews coming in? And he was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>we haven't booked them or assigned writers to those stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just a wish list, you know. But I

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<v Speaker 1>was like young and inexperienced and didn't know any better

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<v Speaker 1>and was trying to turn this temporary gig to permanent.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was like, Okay, we're going to do it,

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<v Speaker 1>and we did. We actually got those interviews and pulled

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<v Speaker 1>together a really great issue and that became my job.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I did mostly film reviews. I wrote about

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<v Speaker 1>like cultural trends, and it was really fun. I enjoyed

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<v Speaker 1>it a lot. And then I also quit spontaneously because

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<v Speaker 1>after a while you just couldn't keep dealing with that guy.

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<v Speaker 1>It became almost impossible for me to actually work because

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<v Speaker 1>I would come and as soon as he would come

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<v Speaker 1>to the office, he would insist that I sit at

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<v Speaker 1>his desk so he could dictate all of his emails

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<v Speaker 1>for me to type for him.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh so you became his secretary as well as the

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<v Speaker 2>managing editor of Implication.

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<v Speaker 1>You would like pace behind me, and like ninety percent

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<v Speaker 1>of his emails were like mad emails. We just sort

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<v Speaker 1>of stop around behind me dictating these emails, including to

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<v Speaker 1>the woman who delivered our mail, who he had an

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<v Speaker 1>endless ongoing battle with.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So I had started coming into work at like five am,

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<v Speaker 1>just so I could get stuff done before he showed up,

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<v Speaker 1>because he was taking over my day. At one point,

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<v Speaker 1>he exploded at me about something and I just like

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<v Speaker 1>hurled my keys at his head and said I quit

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<v Speaker 1>and like left and never went back. But then I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, oh shit, I have to pay rent in

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<v Speaker 1>two weeks. And a friend of mine was working for

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<v Speaker 1>an engineering firm. He's like, okay, well we need someone

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<v Speaker 1>to do some copywriting. It's really boring, but it pays

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<v Speaker 1>well and they'll just pay you as you go so

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<v Speaker 1>it pays quickly. I was like, perfect, sign me up.

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<v Speaker 1>They just needed someone to write case studies of some

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<v Speaker 1>of their projects, and then one of their projects was

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<v Speaker 1>re engineering off ore oil platforms for Shell in the

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<v Speaker 1>mid to late nineties to deal with sea level rise.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was like, huh, that's interesting because I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like Shell was not even admitting that sea level rise

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<v Speaker 1>was going to be a problem in the late night.

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<v Speaker 1>So I looked into it and sure enough they were not.

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<v Speaker 1>And I pitched that story to a small environmental magazine

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<v Speaker 1>and basically that's what put me on everything I've been

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<v Speaker 1>doing since then, So.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, amazing. I had no idea went out.

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<v Speaker 1>For paying the rent.

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel, Yeah, I'll tell you on that one.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about what we're planning for this crossover season.

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<v Speaker 1>So actually, first I want to ask you a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more about Non Toxic and like that, what are

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<v Speaker 1>some of your favorite episodes that you guys had to I.

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<v Speaker 2>Did do an interview with the artist and filmmaker Richard Moss,

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<v Speaker 2>which has consistently been one of my audience's favorite conversations. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he did this amazing film photo installation project called Broken

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<v Speaker 2>Specter that was kind of deep in the Amazon focused

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<v Speaker 2>on the mining and lawugging communities that are illegally extracting

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<v Speaker 2>resources in these kind of wild West towns, and I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, just through his sheer irish charm managed to

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<v Speaker 2>inveigle himself into these camps with these guys who are

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<v Speaker 2>doing this work, And I thought it was one The

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<v Speaker 2>art is just really beautiful and visually complex. He's using

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<v Speaker 2>all of these different kind of visual technologies and different

0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.520
<v Speaker 2>types of satellite imagery, microscopic, all of these things like

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<v Speaker 2>UV to kind of bring different elements to light. But

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<v Speaker 2>also just like the way that he was able to

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<v Speaker 2>tell the human side of this story, the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the machismo of these places, the effects that it has

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<v Speaker 2>on women es actually indigenous women who live near these

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<v Speaker 2>illegal encampments, And yeah, I felt like he really was

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<v Speaker 2>hitting like every note that I was interested in. And

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<v Speaker 2>he you know, he'd spent over a year making this,

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<v Speaker 2>so he had a kind of a deep well of

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<v Speaker 2>stories to draw from, and he was very like reflective

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<v Speaker 2>on kind of the process of making the piece as well,

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<v Speaker 2>which I thought was just really powerful and useful to

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<v Speaker 2>understand that it's not just here's this cool art project,

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<v Speaker 2>but this is the story of how it was made.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the things that you're seeing right

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<v Speaker 1>now that you're like, oh, yeah, this is where I

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<v Speaker 1>thought this trend was going, or I don't know that

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<v Speaker 1>are just peauking your interest in this area.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think for this season, the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>central node is going to be the reelection of Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>That's it's kind of an inescapable fact that I thought

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<v Speaker 2>was was maybe I thought Trump was going to be

0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.680
<v Speaker 2>in the rear view mirror, like especially once Biden dropped out,

0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.480
<v Speaker 2>I kind of thought, oh, this is the end of

0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 2>nontoxic Kamala will be president.

0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh you sweet summer child.

0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 2>It's like, who's going to care about this? You know,

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 2>these internet chads are going to go back into their hole.

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>But obviously, yeah, that's not what happened. And I think

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.480
<v Speaker 2>the sort of the twin forces. I mean, there are

0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.200
<v Speaker 2>many forces that animated Trump's rise, but I think two

0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:34.000
<v Speaker 2>that are of particular import are the kind of masculinity, grievance,

0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:39.600
<v Speaker 2>politics of the right, and then also like fossil fuel money.

0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, he made a deal at mar A Lago

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.200
<v Speaker 2>where he said, give me a billion dollars.

0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.360
<v Speaker 1>And I'll make your dreams come true and I'll yeah,

0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.520
<v Speaker 1>and they did. I know.

0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 2>It's really so I think that his administration kind of

0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:02.720
<v Speaker 2>brings together in human form and through its policies. You know,

0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 2>it's war on the so called gender ideology, and it's

0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 2>warm environmental regulations, it's you know, complete gutting of the EPA.

0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Like there they and they very much understand that project

0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:20.040
<v Speaker 2>is being intertwined. They want to go back to an

0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 2>era when men were in charge and the economy ran

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 2>on fossil fuels, and they see those two things as

0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.920
<v Speaker 2>being kind of mutually constitutive. We're going to talk about

0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:37.080
<v Speaker 2>that this season with Kara Daggett and during an episode

0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 2>on Petro masculinity, which is this concept she coined, I think, yeah,

0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.160
<v Speaker 2>that for me is is kind of the inescapable fact

0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.119
<v Speaker 2>that these these things are very much like a singular

0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:58.240
<v Speaker 2>ideology and they need to be understood together. I think

0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 2>also something that has been a thread throughout my work

0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.040
<v Speaker 2>is that, you know, the kind of climate denial or

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:12.280
<v Speaker 2>climate refusal often takes kind of uniquely masculine forms. So

0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 2>things like the needing to drive a huge pickup truck

0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 2>roll coal and being an obsession with meat, which is

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:26.120
<v Speaker 2>a huge contributor to the climate crisis. Like a lot

0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:32.000
<v Speaker 2>of the signifiers of contemporary masculinity are totally bound up

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 2>in kind of profligate environmental destruction in one way or another,

0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 2>and that is a bizarre not to me, a wicked not.

0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.880
<v Speaker 2>I guess we have to try to untangle if we're

0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:53.240
<v Speaker 2>going to kind of change social norms and build the

0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.840
<v Speaker 2>consensus around climate action. I think, you know, one of

0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the things that I started with was a premise for

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Steve Bannon that politics is downstream of culture. And I thought, okay, well,

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 2>what are the cultural factors that are kind of producing

0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 2>this either political inaction or and now at this point

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.359
<v Speaker 2>political rollback of so many of the protections that we

0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:25.320
<v Speaker 2>thought we had, And how are we going to fight

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.359
<v Speaker 2>that battle? Like, it's not just a matter of coming

0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.719
<v Speaker 2>up with the right policy. And I think that this

0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.080
<v Speaker 2>is an analysis that ultimately is oriented towards some kind

0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.479
<v Speaker 2>of political action. I'm not acting as a neutral arbiter.

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm very much an interested party and also like I'm

0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>a man, you know, in case listeners hadn't figured that

0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:53.879
<v Speaker 2>out yet, I'm in reveal. I think a lot about

0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:58.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of what masculinity has become. We've lived through the

0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.240
<v Speaker 2>like the me too era, and now the complete reversal

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.480
<v Speaker 2>of the me too era, and I see, you know,

0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I've seen kind of the backsliding on gen Z.

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.960
<v Speaker 1>I thought that I've been calling it the U two era.

0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:16.560
<v Speaker 2>It's been so disheartening to see younger men drift into

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 2>this right wing, anti feminist, anti environmental, kind of anti everything.

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a kind of deeply nihilistic reactionary position

0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.560
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't necessarily have any kind of I mean, it

0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.479
<v Speaker 2>does have goals sometimes, but I think for a lot

0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 2>of these young men it's it's just attractive because it's

0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:42.720
<v Speaker 2>a rejection of you know, mommy and like scolding teachers

0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:47.800
<v Speaker 2>and all of these kinds of figures in their lives

0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:52.720
<v Speaker 2>that they resent for telling them now right right? And

0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.239
<v Speaker 2>how are we going to undo that? How we're going

0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.960
<v Speaker 2>to move forward on that? We need a real reckoning

0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:07.240
<v Speaker 2>with the social, economic, psychological, gendered conditions in our culture

0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:11.800
<v Speaker 2>that are priming the pump for this situation.

0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.359
<v Speaker 1>It reminds me well two things. First, like, for the

0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.400
<v Speaker 1>folks who are anti climate action, it always goes along

0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:26.600
<v Speaker 1>with anti equity of all kinds, gender, racial, class, whatever,

0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:32.480
<v Speaker 1>being very like anti LGBTQ, anti labor. It's all kind

0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.680
<v Speaker 1>of bundled together. I talk about it as the right

0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.879
<v Speaker 1>actually being way more intersectional than the left at the moment,

0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.520
<v Speaker 1>and we need to realize that these things are always

0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.399
<v Speaker 1>going together. And then on the culture side, kind of

0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.159
<v Speaker 1>similar to how Steve Bannon has talked about this. For

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.120
<v Speaker 1>part of the book research, I went to an archive

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.800
<v Speaker 1>of this big network of conservative think tanks. It's called

0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.919
<v Speaker 1>the Atlas Network. The Atlas Network think tanks which include

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.520
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the groups that were involved in Project

0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:06.240
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty five, for example, Heritage Foundation, all the Koch

0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.280
<v Speaker 1>Brothers foundations are all they're all up in there. But

0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.199
<v Speaker 1>in this archive, I was looking through a bunch of

0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:18.159
<v Speaker 1>their founding documents even before they officially existed, like in

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.600
<v Speaker 1>the late seventies and early eighties, as they were getting going.

0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 1>And they're very very clear about this idea that they

0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:30.720
<v Speaker 1>are not trying to put forth or achieve any particular policy,

0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.639
<v Speaker 1>that their job is to sort of seed the cultural

0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.399
<v Speaker 1>and intellectual soil in which future policies can take hold.

0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.920
<v Speaker 1>And I just don't think that there has been any

0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of similar effort on the left or progressive side

0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.720
<v Speaker 1>of things. I think a lot of people who are

0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.719
<v Speaker 1>creatives or who work in culture have tended to be progressive,

0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.919
<v Speaker 1>and therefore, like maybe some of those ideas have found

0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.320
<v Speaker 1>their way into culture. But I don't know that there's

0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 1>been this super concerted, well funded, long term effort in

0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:07.400
<v Speaker 1>the way.

0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:11.080
<v Speaker 2>That's not sure if you ask Tucker Carlson.

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:16.160
<v Speaker 1>I know, I know, the globless political funders and foundations

0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.040
<v Speaker 1>and stuff that I've had a window into, they're very

0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.080
<v Speaker 1>policy focused. It's like they fund campaigns and they fund

0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.679
<v Speaker 1>campaigns pegged too specific policy outcomes that they want, but

0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.680
<v Speaker 1>they really do not do. I mean, you can see

0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 1>it in the climate space right now, like all of

0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:38.080
<v Speaker 1>all the foundations are just now kind of starting to

0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.199
<v Speaker 1>use this word narrative change a lot, you know, and

0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:43.159
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, oh my god, you guys are like fifty

0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:47.760
<v Speaker 1>years behind, you know. So anyway, it is interesting to

0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.080
<v Speaker 1>me how all that intersects together. And I think that similarly,

0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:56.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't know that you end up with masculinity backlash

0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.239
<v Speaker 1>thing that we're seeing now in the absence of this

0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:04.399
<v Speaker 1>whole information ecosystem. There's so much being done to really

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.800
<v Speaker 1>pull people into that. I mean, there's underlying drivers too,

0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.480
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know that it would be so rampant

0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:16.600
<v Speaker 1>and so effective about all of the disinformation tools too.

0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think specifically the balance of gender is so powerful.

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:26.439
<v Speaker 2>It's it's for many people the most core aspect of

0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:31.240
<v Speaker 2>their identity. And if they feel that something like climate

0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.679
<v Speaker 2>or any number of other so called progressive ideas is

0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 2>threatening that, then it's it's kind of like, uh, the

0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.280
<v Speaker 2>most important thing that you have, you have to defend it. Yeah,

0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.360
<v Speaker 2>that thing that is the most basic part of who

0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I am is being taken away from me or destroyed.

0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 2>I can't allow that, right, right?

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that any of it hards back to

0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:05.040
<v Speaker 1>the really big man versus nature domination stuff too. There's

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:09.440
<v Speaker 1>this social sciences researcher that I like a lot because

0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:13.439
<v Speaker 1>she focuses on media studies and communications and stuff. Melissa

0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Aroncheck is her name. She wrote a book called A

0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:19.240
<v Speaker 1>Strategic Nature, and it's about the history of environmental pr

0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.880
<v Speaker 1>and she talks about these two approaches to quote unquote

0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 1>the environment in the US kind of in the early

0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.359
<v Speaker 1>early days of the country. She particularly ties them to

0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:37.280
<v Speaker 1>two specific men, Gifford Pinchot, who is like the first

0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:44.479
<v Speaker 1>forester in the US, and John Muir, who is all

0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:48.400
<v Speaker 1>about conservation and creating national parks and all of this stuff,

0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 1>and of course neither of them is paying any attention

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:55.200
<v Speaker 1>at all to the indigenous approach to nature that existed

0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:59.399
<v Speaker 1>before the US. But she talks about it as like

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.760
<v Speaker 1>these two kind of warring ideas about nature, one to

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:09.360
<v Speaker 1>preserve it and the other to control it and kind

0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.360
<v Speaker 1>of see it as an economic resource. And I feel

0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.320
<v Speaker 1>like there's a lot of that that's like tied to

0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the masculinity stuff too.

0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think there are other psychological relationships.

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:23.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, at this point, this is something we'll also

0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.760
<v Speaker 2>be talking about, this idea of eco sadism that we

0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:31.200
<v Speaker 2>live in a time when it's it's almost like it's

0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>funny to own the libs by destroying something or you know,

0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:42.719
<v Speaker 2>intentionally like rolling coal as an example. Yeah, things that

0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:45.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, on the face of them defy logic, but

0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:49.679
<v Speaker 2>when you understand, like psychologically what they kind of do

0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:55.320
<v Speaker 2>for the person is kind of engaging in these practices,

0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.639
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't say it makes sense, but it definitely is

0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:04.840
<v Speaker 2>outside the paradigm of rationality. Yeah, you're talking about with

0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.440
<v Speaker 2>the kind of like, oh, do we kind of conserve

0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:13.000
<v Speaker 2>and exploit or do we preserve nature as this kind

0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.480
<v Speaker 2>of untouched wilderness. Yet now it's like, well, why don't

0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:16.879
<v Speaker 2>we just burn it because it's fun?

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:19.879
<v Speaker 1>I see the burn it because it's fun stuff. Also

0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:24.720
<v Speaker 1>being tied a lot to ideas of like freedom, you know.

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Like exercising my sovereignty.

0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, totally freedom and like no rules and all

0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:35.600
<v Speaker 1>of that kind of thing. All right, cool, Well I

0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:37.280
<v Speaker 1>could talk to you about this stuff for hours, which

0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:41.200
<v Speaker 1>is why we're doing a whole season. I'm very excited.

0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:44.359
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, and look out for that season

0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:45.840
<v Speaker 1>coming in your feeds soon