Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in
Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here.
Speaker 1: Back for another episode as we, of course break down
Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties today, let's talk about destiny
Speaker 1: or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed,
Speaker 1: How it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how
Speaker 1: happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of
Speaker 1: a black box. Like we know it's shaped by nature
Speaker 1: and nurture. We know that genetics are involved. How we
Speaker 1: were raised is kind of involved. But I think as
Speaker 1: we get older, we become more aware of the parts
Speaker 1: of ourselves that are holding us back and that you know,
Speaker 1: we really would wish for something different. Well, today I
Speaker 1: have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that
Speaker 1: very possibility. What if we could be ourselves bit better
Speaker 1: by rewiring our personality? And want to welcome on author
Speaker 1: and journalist Olga Hazan. Thank you for.
Speaker 2: Joining absolutely, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm very very excited for this episode and this topic
Speaker 1: in general. But before we kind of jump into it.
Speaker 1: Can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work. Sure.
Speaker 3: My name's Olga Hasan and I'm a staff writer at
Speaker 3: the Atlantic magazine and I'm also an author of books.
Speaker 3: This is my second book, and it is actually kind
Speaker 3: of stems from a cover story I did for The
Speaker 3: Atlantic a few years ago.
Speaker 2: So that's that's my backstory.
Speaker 1: And you're not gonna give us any spoilers. I feel
Speaker 1: like the cover story, like you go into it kind
Speaker 1: of in the book, right, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I can, Yeah, I can, I can. I can give
Speaker 3: you a spoiler. So the cover story, I kind of
Speaker 3: experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I
Speaker 3: kind of realized that I needed to do more and
Speaker 3: that it you know, kind of letting up on the experiment.
Speaker 3: I backtracked. I noticed that I was sort of falling
Speaker 3: back into old patterns. So the book is really an
Speaker 3: overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts
Speaker 3: to change on three of them, and because the other
Speaker 3: two I actually don't need to change, they're find they're
Speaker 3: very high in me as it is. But I do
Speaker 3: interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods.
Speaker 1: We're going to get to that because I feel like
Speaker 1: it's such an interesting premise, But I do also want
Speaker 1: to talk about how you became a journalist, how you
Speaker 1: became a writer. I think as much as I love
Speaker 1: interviewing people about the very you know, amazing niche things
Speaker 1: that they're doing, and they're like whether it's psychology or
Speaker 1: neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is
Speaker 1: for people in their twenties, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind
Speaker 1: of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating
Speaker 1: high school to where you are now? Sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that's a long time ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you were entire life please and thinks.
Speaker 3: Graduated from high school like twenty years ago. Then I
Speaker 3: went to college, did not major in journalism, but really
Speaker 3: found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism,
Speaker 3: and then I went to graduate school after I graduated
Speaker 3: from college, which is not like a necessary step for
Speaker 3: anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did.
Speaker 3: Then I got a job at the Washington Post out
Speaker 3: of graduate school, and I worked there for a brief time,
Speaker 3: and then I moved to the Atlantic in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 3: and I've worked at the Atlantic ever since, and I've
Speaker 3: done a couple of different jobs there, but I've mostly
Speaker 3: been a writer covering like health and human behavior.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember,
Speaker 1: like what your first big piece of writing was, like
Speaker 1: your first article where you were like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: like I'm a journalist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that probably was. So when I did my internship
Speaker 3: in college. I wrote one story during that internship. It
Speaker 3: was complex why I only wrote one, but that was
Speaker 3: like the amount that I was allowed to write, and
Speaker 3: it was about online gaming addiction, and I remember when it.
Speaker 2: Came out, I felt so.
Speaker 3: Just accomplished, Like I was like, yes, like my life
Speaker 3: is all coming together. And of course, like I wouldn't
Speaker 3: be a full time writer for I think eight years
Speaker 3: after that, but it was it was like very good
Speaker 3: motivation to keep going.
Speaker 1: You know. I love stories like that where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as
Speaker 1: you said, you had this like what sounds like this
Speaker 1: big accomplished moment, and you know it really didn't come
Speaker 1: full circle until what did you say, like ten years ago,
Speaker 1: almost maybe twelve years ago, which, Yeah, we love hearing
Speaker 1: those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book.
Speaker 1: The premise of this book was basically that coup of
Speaker 1: story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality?
Speaker 1: Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why
Speaker 1: did you feel like you had to do that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so your personality.
Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people think it's sort of
Speaker 3: like what you like or dislike, or sort of the
Speaker 3: kinds of things you say or whatever, but it's really
Speaker 3: a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of
Speaker 3: like something comes across your way and are you like, yes,
Speaker 3: let's do it. Are you like, oh, I don't know
Speaker 3: about that, or you know, It's kind of like how
Speaker 3: how you interact.
Speaker 1: With the world.
Speaker 3: And I noticed that a lot of how I was
Speaker 3: interacting with the world was not helping me really, So
Speaker 3: the intro to the book kind of gives a good
Speaker 3: overview of this.
Speaker 2: But I had this day.
Speaker 3: This is before I had a kid, and it was like, now,
Speaker 3: having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually
Speaker 3: like a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated. But
Speaker 3: you know, it was like I got stuck in traffic,
Speaker 3: I got a bad haircut, I got photos taken that
Speaker 3: looked really bad. I had a stressful thing where I
Speaker 3: had to like pick my mom up at the airport,
Speaker 3: but I had to go grocery shopping before. But the
Speaker 3: like there was like a delay at the grocery store
Speaker 3: and then I was gonna be late to pick up
Speaker 3: my mom. And it was like this whole thing and
Speaker 3: I just had a meltdown. I got back to my
Speaker 3: Rbnb that I was staying in and I like drank
Speaker 3: wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time and.
Speaker 2: Was just like I hate everything.
Speaker 3: And then I kind of got to thinking and I
Speaker 3: was like, even like me saying that now to you,
Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and like unappreciative
Speaker 3: of the fact that like that day, you know, I
Speaker 3: was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami, like
Speaker 3: I got myself to Miami, uh, I you know, was
Speaker 3: getting a haircut, like spa day for me, you know,
Speaker 3: I got professional photos taken, like you know, and it
Speaker 3: was sort of like I had this realization that like, wow,
Speaker 3: I can take anything good and positive and maybe or
Speaker 3: maybe even just like mediocre. Right, Like a lot of
Speaker 3: things that happen in life are kind of like, eh,
Speaker 3: that was whatever, you know, And I have a tendency
Speaker 3: to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the
Speaker 3: negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that
Speaker 3: were not serving me. And it was made me like
Speaker 3: not enjoy my life like to the extent that I
Speaker 3: that it could have and should have been enjoyed. And
Speaker 3: so that's kind of the long and the short of it.
Speaker 3: Why I decided to change.
Speaker 1: That's actually really interesting, and can I be honest, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality because
Speaker 1: I had a day like that, like literally yesterday, like sorry, no,
Speaker 1: I literally even got my hair cut, and like I
Speaker 1: didn't like my haircut, and like my mom was literally
Speaker 1: in town yesterday as well, and that's like honestly crazy.
Speaker 1: So like, yo, I'm like hearing that story and like no,
Speaker 1: like you just feel your emotions go, there's a.
Speaker 3: Time and a place to feel your you can feel
Speaker 3: your emotions. And also like look at the.
Speaker 1: Bright side, you know, Yeah, I know it's just really funny.
Speaker 1: And I think like what you're really pointing at is
Speaker 1: like this wasn't like a one off situation, like you
Speaker 1: had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy
Speaker 1: your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well something needs to change in me. Why did you
Speaker 1: hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of
Speaker 1: personality rather than something else. Why didn't you like speak
Speaker 1: spiritual enlightenment. Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh,
Speaker 1: I need to change something about my lifestyle. Like did
Speaker 1: you feel? Yeah, what was like the focus on changing
Speaker 1: what I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right, like as a
Speaker 1: building block.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So neuroticism was one of the things I wanted
Speaker 3: to change. The neuroticism is one of the five traits,
Speaker 3: and it's just anxiety and depression, right, And I had
Speaker 3: a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety
Speaker 3: and a lot of kind of negativity as I mentioned,
Speaker 3: But there are other elements of personality and they sort
Speaker 3: of encompass those other things that you mentioned. So actually,
Speaker 3: as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing
Speaker 3: I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of
Speaker 3: Buddhist teachings because a lot of neuroticism it's not about
Speaker 3: like reducing the number of things that happen to you
Speaker 3: that are bad. It's I mean, although, like if you're
Speaker 3: like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things
Speaker 3: keep happening to you, Like that's something.
Speaker 2: To look to.
Speaker 3: But let's say you're like a like a functional person
Speaker 3: who's who's you know, living like a basically normal life.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be a lot easier to change your reactions
Speaker 3: to the things that happened to you than it is
Speaker 3: to like make every single thing in the world go
Speaker 3: your way.
Speaker 2: So that's why I kind of.
Speaker 3: Like looked inward and and and personality does encompass a
Speaker 3: lot of those things that you mentioned, so like spirituality,
Speaker 3: Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: And you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was
Speaker 3: really more extroversion, Like I wanted to become more extroverted,
Speaker 3: and that was a big part. Lifestyle was a big
Speaker 3: part of that is sort of how often do you
Speaker 3: go out to socialize and do you make an effort
Speaker 3: to do that? You know, not just like do you
Speaker 3: sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you,
Speaker 3: but do you make connections do you try to get
Speaker 3: out there? So those those are things that I did,
Speaker 3: but I called it personality change because personality includes all that.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes a lot more sense. So in this
Speaker 1: like endeavor to change your personality, did you figure out
Speaker 1: like who the happiest kinds of people were? Like, was
Speaker 1: there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people
Speaker 1: are extroverted and are low and neuroticism and like high
Speaker 1: and openness to experience. Its like thinking about like the
Speaker 1: big five. What did you come across in your research?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so people are not going to be thrilled to
Speaker 3: hear this, but the happiest people are like high in
Speaker 3: all the traits except for neuroticism. So so there's five traits.
Speaker 3: I will just briefly say what they are. It's so
Speaker 3: openness to experience. Happy people are high on that because
Speaker 3: that's like yeah, spiritual but not religious, like creative, imaginative conscientiousness,
Speaker 3: which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being
Speaker 3: places on time and being like healthy and exercising. Happy
Speaker 3: people tend to be high in that extroversion. Extroverts are happier.
Speaker 3: That's like a really consistent finding in psychology.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately I was.
Speaker 3: I'm an introvert, and I was not thrilled to hear
Speaker 3: that agreeableness. Agreeable people are are happier. They're always like
Speaker 3: making friends and going to baby showers and what have you.
Speaker 3: And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness.
Speaker 3: And so the opposite of it is emotional stability, that's
Speaker 3: what it's called, and people who are high in that
Speaker 3: are happier.
Speaker 1: Kind of rough, not gonna lie h Like, I'm an
Speaker 1: introvert and I have anxiety. I think like maybe caveat,
Speaker 1: Like I'll put the caveat in. Like, sometimes I think
Speaker 1: that it's like our introverts less happy, or the scales
Speaker 1: by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts, right,
Speaker 1: because who's going to participate in those early studies that
Speaker 1: like created indicators of happiness. It's going to be the
Speaker 1: people who have a lot of friends so we can
Speaker 1: invite them to participate, and who were like, yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: do this, I'll go out, like I'll get paid to
Speaker 1: like sit in a room with a stranger for an hour.
Speaker 1: Like So sometimes I think that, and I also do
Speaker 1: think that, like what we'll get to is, even if
Speaker 1: you don't think you can change your personality, you can
Speaker 1: most certainly manage it, and you can manage like medications,
Speaker 1: and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists.
Speaker 1: So don't see this as like a curve upon your
Speaker 1: name if you kind of associate with some of those
Speaker 1: other traits. But this kind of leads me to my
Speaker 1: next question, like what age do you think our personality
Speaker 1: really starts to stick at? What age do you think
Speaker 1: we really feel like stuck in who we are?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would say there's not an age at
Speaker 3: which we start to stick and who we are. So
Speaker 3: that used to be the thinking this, Like influential psychologist
Speaker 3: named William James had this infamous sort of quote that
Speaker 3: like the characters set like plaster by the age of thirty,
Speaker 3: and which is relevant for your podcasts for people in
Speaker 3: their twenties. So, I mean even he said, like in
Speaker 3: your twenties, you can still change, but kind of more
Speaker 3: recent research has found that that's not really true, that
Speaker 3: people kind of continue to change throughout their lives even naturally,
Speaker 3: even if you don't really do anything to try to
Speaker 3: change your personality. Is gonna kind of shift from decade
Speaker 3: to decade. You're going to be a different person. And
Speaker 3: you know when you have kids and like a job
Speaker 3: than you were in college then you were in high school,
Speaker 3: you know, And that is like freeing and it's kind
Speaker 3: of scary, but it's also kind of nice that like
Speaker 3: you're not gonna be like if you're not crazy about
Speaker 3: something you know about yourself or about your life, you're
Speaker 3: not stuck with it forever.
Speaker 1: That is very very free and even like as we
Speaker 1: get into like older age as well. Something that I like,
Speaker 1: the statistic that I really like to talk about is
Speaker 1: how by the time people reach like sixty and seventy,
Speaker 1: symptoms of mental illness really decline, which I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've always like thought about that and been like, oh,
Speaker 1: that sounds great, like way for that, wait for that,
Speaker 1: like maybe I'll have ten years of just like bliss.
Speaker 1: But it is like a really beautiful thing that you
Speaker 1: mentioned this. I hear this a lot. Like another myth
Speaker 1: about personality change slash personality stuckness is by the time
Speaker 1: you reach twenty five, like your frontal lobe is fully developed.
Speaker 1: And I think we kind of think like I, hey,
Speaker 1: so like that's it, Like, this is who I'm always
Speaker 1: going to be. What evidence did you find like on
Speaker 1: the contrary before I like really dive into your personal experiment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So so there's two kind of branches of evidence
Speaker 3: to the contrary. So first, uh, your frontal lobe being
Speaker 3: fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because
Speaker 3: we don't have like a lobe in our brain that
Speaker 3: is where the personality lives. So like even if they
Speaker 3: study like brain changes or you know, like those like
Speaker 3: fMRI studies where it's like brains lighting up, those don't
Speaker 3: necessarily correlate perfectly with personality necessarily. So there's kind of
Speaker 3: two elements to this. The first is that when researchers
Speaker 3: have followed people you know, and given them personality tests
Speaker 3: over and over across the years, they do find that
Speaker 3: people change, you know, they tend to change in certain
Speaker 3: ways over time. So, like you mentioned that people become
Speaker 3: kind of mentally healthier in old age, neuroticism does go
Speaker 3: down naturally across your life. So if you feel like
Speaker 3: you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age people
Speaker 3: become less so so that sort of just naturally happens.
Speaker 3: You don't have to do anything. You don't have to
Speaker 3: like take any lexipro that naturally happens for most people.
Speaker 3: The other element of this is that if you actually
Speaker 3: try to change, it can happen even faster. So there's
Speaker 3: been studies that show the people who get therapy, for example,
Speaker 3: become less neurotic, and in a short period of time
Speaker 3: they become a lot less neurotic neurotic than you would
Speaker 3: expect them to having, just like naturally, you know, decline
Speaker 3: and neuroticism. And the same with some of the studies
Speaker 3: that I cover with my in my book, researchers who
Speaker 3: have given people these like challenges. You know, people will say,
Speaker 3: I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to
Speaker 3: make more friends, and they're like, okay, every day for
Speaker 3: or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to
Speaker 3: someone new and have coffee with them or have you know,
Speaker 3: lunch with them or whatever. And they do maybe like
Speaker 3: five to ten challenges like that over a period of time,
Speaker 3: they actually find that they do grow an extraversion based
Speaker 3: on personality tests that they take at the beginning and
Speaker 3: the end. So not only do you naturally change, you
Speaker 3: can also change through effort.
Speaker 1: So a things like introversion, like I always thought that
Speaker 1: they were vary, and they like it's a genetic Oh my,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like genetic predisposition, it's temperament, but you're
Speaker 1: saying that, actually, no, it's more of a nuts effecta
Speaker 1: well being like environment.
Speaker 3: Sorry, yeah, so it's both. So, so genetics is responsible
Speaker 3: for about forty to sixty percent of our personality. And
Speaker 3: even it's not like direct like if you think about
Speaker 3: either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either
Speaker 3: of them, right, You're probably like you have like elements
Speaker 3: of them, but you're not like they're twin like you.
Speaker 3: You kind of most people are. I mean usually people
Speaker 3: are relieved to hear this, like not exactly like either
Speaker 3: either parent, right, so you get a little bit like
Speaker 3: you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural
Speaker 3: proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, there's other there's like this
Speaker 3: you know, forty to sixty other percent of personality that
Speaker 3: we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's
Speaker 3: not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. It's
Speaker 3: like it's like kind of that, but it's also like
Speaker 3: your friends. It's like, did you go to college, what
Speaker 3: kind of job do you have? You know, do you
Speaker 3: make an effort to like read self help books. It's
Speaker 3: kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb
Speaker 3: into yourself that create that other part of personality. So
Speaker 3: that's the kind of element that I'm talking about, is
Speaker 3: that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are
Speaker 3: totally bookish and hate talking to people, you're gonna naturally
Speaker 3: be kind of like I feel really introverted. But if
Speaker 3: but if you, you know, go into a job in
Speaker 3: sales and you talk to people you know all day
Speaker 3: and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like
Speaker 3: high fives and promotions for being extroverted, like you're gonna
Speaker 3: be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would.
Speaker 2: Be, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does
Speaker 1: kind of work, Like yeah, yeah, absolutely rewarded. See. I
Speaker 1: find this really interesting because like my parents are so
Speaker 1: totally opposite each other, Like they are the perfect definition
Speaker 1: of like opposites attract. Like my dad is like a
Speaker 1: stay at home dad and like we call him like
Speaker 1: a charity wife. Like he runs like a non for
Speaker 1: profit like giving bags to refugee children in Australia, and like,
Speaker 1: then my mom is like a like badass like Cee
Speaker 1: R and like she has like she is older, like
Speaker 1: she is the lowest person, like the lowest neuroticism levels
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in an individual, Like I have never
Speaker 1: seen that woman break a sweat. She is not anxious
Speaker 1: at all, like nothing phases her. And then my dad
Speaker 1: is like the complete opposite, and it's like completely like
Speaker 1: he's not completely anxious, but he's very anxious and very
Speaker 1: existential and very like in his own head about very
Speaker 1: deep things. And it's really funny like seeing like me
Speaker 1: and my sister's always joked that it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: one of us got my mom's jeans and my other
Speaker 1: me and my other sister got my dad's jeans, and
Speaker 1: it was like damn, like if I could switch, like
Speaker 1: I totally.
Speaker 2: So yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: But then again it's like me and my sister like
Speaker 1: not to like tell her story, but had had very
Speaker 1: different approaches to like how he faced neuroticism and like
Speaker 1: and other things as well, and like agreeable and all
Speaker 1: those things, and like there's definitely has been a difference
Speaker 1: in like how we've approached it and how we've changed
Speaker 1: as people. So I'm ranting. Really, what I want to
Speaker 1: get to is what you found in yourself. But we're
Speaker 1: going to take a tiny break and we'll be back
Speaker 1: in just a second. Stay tuned. We are back with
Speaker 1: Oga Hazan talking about can we change our personality? This
Speaker 1: is kind of the crux of this whole interview. What happened? Firstly,
Speaker 1: what did you do? And secondly what did you find?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's like the whole book, So let me
Speaker 3: just break it down into let's talk about extraversion first,
Speaker 3: because I think that is like the easiest to wrap
Speaker 3: your head around and also has had the clearest results.
Speaker 2: Okay, so extraversion.
Speaker 3: Basically the secret to increasing extraversion is to socialize with people.
Speaker 3: Some of the other traits are more existential and more
Speaker 3: like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think
Speaker 3: about things. Extraversion is like very clear cut, go talk
Speaker 3: to people, like go do activities. So I signed up
Speaker 3: for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for Improv
Speaker 3: Sailing Club, a bunch of meetup groups, so which is
Speaker 3: like groups of strangers meeting up. Literally, I like throw
Speaker 3: a party at my house. I just went out all
Speaker 3: the time. I went from basically going out maybe once
Speaker 3: a week to going out like pretty much every night
Speaker 3: or like not and not like going out drinking, like
Speaker 3: although there was a lot of drinking, I get like
Speaker 3: like just being around people. And I found that like
Speaker 3: almost every time before I went, I dreaded it.
Speaker 2: I did not want to go.
Speaker 3: I was like, I hate improv I don't even know
Speaker 3: why I'm doing this, it's stupid, Like I don't want
Speaker 3: to go. And then almost every time after I would
Speaker 3: do it, I felt better. I was like that was
Speaker 3: super fun, or like that person in the sailing my
Speaker 3: sailboat today was really interesting, or like that was cool,
Speaker 3: or like hey, like I got to get whatever a
Speaker 3: burger on the way back home, like there was something
Speaker 3: that came out of it. Usually that I was like, huh,
Speaker 3: that was like a nice break from the day. That
Speaker 3: was like a nice way to like liven up the
Speaker 3: day a little bit. And I think that's kind of
Speaker 3: like the when I talk about increasing extraversion or like
Speaker 3: changing your introversion. You can remain an introvert, but just
Speaker 3: do like twenty percent more stuff like connect with people
Speaker 3: twenty percent more, and there's a little bit of a
Speaker 3: mood boost there. Like researchers who are introverts have studied
Speaker 3: this concept and have found that like even just connecting
Speaker 3: with people a little bit, and it doesn't mean that
Speaker 3: you have to be like the life of the party.
Speaker 3: Like I think people assume extraversion means like you're super
Speaker 3: talkative and like can't shut up and you know, or
Speaker 3: you're always telling jokes. You can like go hang out
Speaker 3: with two close friends and like you know, listen more
Speaker 3: than you talk and like knit the whole time, and uh,
Speaker 3: that's still extraversion, that's you know, still being around people.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I for that one, my introversion, my extraversion
Speaker 3: did go up. And I think what I took away
Speaker 3: from that is that like I do enjoy having fun,
Speaker 3: I need to sometimes force myself to have fun, but it's.
Speaker 2: Okay to do that.
Speaker 3: Like it's okay to be like commit, you know, kind
Speaker 3: of to an exercise class or to something else that
Speaker 3: doesn't sound super appealing all the time but ends up
Speaker 3: being rewarding.
Speaker 1: This is what I always say, Like people will people
Speaker 1: will dan maybe like how do I make any friends?
Speaker 1: Or like how do I stop feeling like everything is
Speaker 1: an effort and I'm like, pick two things to do
Speaker 1: awake and do them in the same place at the
Speaker 1: same time, and you will meet other people who are
Speaker 1: doing this same thing as you, like, whether it is
Speaker 1: it an exercise class or like an improv class or
Speaker 1: a life drawn class or like social sport. There are
Speaker 1: so many people out there who also want to make
Speaker 1: friends and who also are like seeking connection, and there's
Speaker 1: like no shame about it, either of being like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to train my brain to like this more,
Speaker 1: because you do fall into a habit, like I'm such
Speaker 1: an extroverted person. And last week I spent the entire
Speaker 1: day at my house and like the entire week like
Speaker 1: indoors working, and I had such cabin fever and I
Speaker 1: was like, I've just I'm just so depressed, like I
Speaker 1: just don't know who I am anymore. And then I
Speaker 1: went and did like barefootballs with my friends and I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, like life is so beautiful, Like look
Speaker 1: at those flowers. It's like, yeah, yeah, giving your brain
Speaker 1: what it needs. So extraversion was the one that you
Speaker 1: saw an improvement in.
Speaker 3: What about neuroticism, Yeah, so neuroticism I also saw an improvement.
Speaker 2: So neuroticism.
Speaker 3: I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot.
Speaker 3: I and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy.
Speaker 3: I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it,
Speaker 3: and I did not enjoy it after I was done.
Speaker 2: It was not like that was really nice. Was like,
Speaker 2: thank God, I don't have to do that for another
Speaker 2: twenty four hours.
Speaker 3: I signed up for a class where we had to
Speaker 3: meditate for forty five minutes every day, which is so
Speaker 3: long it's literally the longest forty five minutes of your life. However,
Speaker 3: it did work. My neuroticism went down, and my anxiety
Speaker 3: went down a little bit, but my depression went down
Speaker 3: a ton. It went down a lot, like to basically
Speaker 3: like not being depressed anymore.
Speaker 2: And why that.
Speaker 3: Happened, as sort of anyone's guess if I had to
Speaker 3: like pose it.
Speaker 2: Why that occurred.
Speaker 3: It's that I did a lot of what's called loving
Speaker 3: kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice
Speaker 3: to yourself for however long.
Speaker 2: And it's usually I do it to like a guide.
Speaker 2: It at like a tape. Basically, people don't use tape anymore,
Speaker 2: like a recording, like.
Speaker 1: A guided.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly like a guided recording, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: like like there's like the line that always makes me
Speaker 3: cry is like there's you can search the whole universe
Speaker 3: for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness
Speaker 3: than you are yourself and not find anyone.
Speaker 2: And it's like like oh yeah, you're.
Speaker 1: Just like, oh my god, what this tape is.
Speaker 3: So it's it's Sharon Salzburg and I use the ten
Speaker 3: Percent Happier app for meditation.
Speaker 1: Oh I love that app. Yeah, yeah, up from the
Speaker 1: Yale Is it from the Yale person?
Speaker 3: No, I think you're thinking of jud Brewer. The the
Speaker 3: ten percent Happier is Dan Harris.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes, he does a
Speaker 1: podcast as well.
Speaker 2: I think, yes, yeah, I mean everyone, yeah.
Speaker 1: Everyone has a podcast. Is so embarrassed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but but he Yeah, but it actually like really worked,
Speaker 3: and I think like there's something about like repeating that
Speaker 3: I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried
Speaker 3: to like hammer home the self compassion.
Speaker 2: And I think it worked. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, see I get this like meditation. I've never met
Speaker 1: someone who's been like I'm really into it all the time.
Speaker 1: Like I do feel like you kind of have to
Speaker 1: drag yourself into it, kicking and screaming. It's like when
Speaker 1: you have to like get a needle when you're like
Speaker 1: I really don't want to do this, or like go
Speaker 1: to the dentist to like go to the doctor, and
Speaker 1: then you feel amazing, like oh wow, that pain's gone.
Speaker 1: Like that's what meditation sounds like. And it's just like
Speaker 1: discipline towards your soul, right in the same way to
Speaker 1: exercise your body, like you're exercising your mind, even if
Speaker 1: it's like tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in
Speaker 1: the moment, like it feels gives you strength later on,
Speaker 1: I think it.
Speaker 3: What it did is made me less afraid of my
Speaker 3: negative emotions. So you're sitting there like sometimes for hours
Speaker 3: and you're just like your mind is like going and going,
Speaker 3: and it's silence, you know. And I think what it
Speaker 3: does is like for me at least, I don't know
Speaker 3: if this is like correct, but for me at least,
Speaker 3: it made me like inevitably like negative feelings will come
Speaker 3: up during that, but it was sort of just like
Speaker 3: it's okay, Like nothing bad is really happening right now.
Speaker 3: You're literally sitting in a room in your house on
Speaker 3: a cushion, like meditating, but you kind of have you
Speaker 3: still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions if
Speaker 3: you're someone who's prone to neuroticism.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, it just lets you like kind
Speaker 2: of not be as.
Speaker 3: Thrown off by them or like because bad things are
Speaker 3: still I mean my meditation teacher would say this all
Speaker 3: the time, like things happen that you don't like, which
Speaker 3: is like very simple, but it's like oh yeah, and
Speaker 3: like you're just you're gonna have to deal with that
Speaker 3: for the rest of your life and it's all about you,
Speaker 3: know you. You know your mom you mentioned is like so
Speaker 3: not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happen to her, but
Speaker 3: she thinks about them in a like somehow more zen
Speaker 3: way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret.
Speaker 1: I would love to as well. It's crazy and she's
Speaker 1: had a tough life, like not to give her story,
Speaker 1: and I have done an episode with her where she
Speaker 1: talks about it, but not even the full extent, like
Speaker 1: not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at
Speaker 1: her and I can see like there'll be a time
Speaker 1: that like me or my my sister will like be
Speaker 1: panicking about something or being like, don't you just see
Speaker 1: like how terrible this is? And I can literally just
Speaker 1: see her looking at me being like no, like trying
Speaker 1: really hard to have empathy for me and being like
Speaker 1: I just can't do it. Like she she's incredible, and
Speaker 1: like she has obviously like learnt what to say, but
Speaker 1: she doesn't like feel it in her bones the way
Speaker 1: that like my dad would or my sister would, So
Speaker 1: she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course.
Speaker 1: Like she's pretty incredible. Okay. I want to ask this
Speaker 1: question that I think everyone is probably thinking at this point,
Speaker 1: you did all these amazing exercises. How long did this last?
Speaker 1: As well? Like six months?
Speaker 2: This lasted it a year?
Speaker 1: Okay, A yeah? And when did that experiment end?
Speaker 3: I honestly only had a year of book leaves, so
Speaker 3: it was just like June of twenty twenty two to
Speaker 3: June of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, So like a year, a solid year. Have
Speaker 1: you found that you've gone back to your old self since?
Speaker 3: So in some ways but not in others. Since I
Speaker 3: did that, I had a baby, and that necessarily like
Speaker 3: changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially
Speaker 3: in the beginning. But I would say that there are
Speaker 3: still a lot of things that I carried through into
Speaker 3: even my life as a I guess I'm still a
Speaker 3: new parent technically. So one example is like just reaching
Speaker 3: out to other moms.
Speaker 2: So it's a very.
Speaker 3: Stressful time when you first have a baby, Like it's
Speaker 3: just is there's no getting around it. You don't know
Speaker 3: what you're doing, and they're very tiny and they cannot
Speaker 3: speak to you, and so you're just like, ah, what
Speaker 3: do you want? So I kind of made a point
Speaker 3: of reaching out to other moms, and like I'm in
Speaker 3: a mom's group that's been really supportive.
Speaker 2: I also just like.
Speaker 3: Really really try to even in day to day life,
Speaker 3: if I meet another mom with kids the same age,
Speaker 3: I really try to like reach out and at least
Speaker 3: see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And
Speaker 3: sometimes that means that I and this is not something
Speaker 3: I would have done previously. I actually do a lot
Speaker 3: of reaching out repeatedly. So like if someone, let's say,
Speaker 3: I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's
Speaker 3: have coffee, and we have coffee and we both have
Speaker 3: a good time. I and then some time elapses and
Speaker 3: no one follows up. I might reach out again, even
Speaker 3: though it was me the last time too, and then
Speaker 3: I might do that like a third time. Like there
Speaker 3: are some relationships where I'm just always the person who
Speaker 3: organizes things, and that used to really bother me, Like
Speaker 3: I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends,
Speaker 3: Like I'm gonna move on because they're not putting an
Speaker 3: equal effort into organizing things, and like I don't I
Speaker 3: don't want that. But I kind of just realized through
Speaker 3: this that like everyone has stuff going on, and like
Speaker 3: people just don't think about things the same way. They
Speaker 3: are maybe swamped in other ways. They're may be like
Speaker 3: not as comfortable with reaching out, Like I don't know.
Speaker 3: It just made me like a lot less sensitive. I
Speaker 3: guess about these like rules of social interaction that I
Speaker 3: had previously thought were like iron.
Speaker 2: Like laws, you know. So that's been one thing that
Speaker 2: I've noticed.
Speaker 3: Like yesterday, we went on a playdate to this woman
Speaker 3: who I barely knew, just because I was like, I'm
Speaker 3: really bored in if I have to like sing Baby
Speaker 3: Beluga one more time, and I might, so it's like
Speaker 3: let's go over to you Chan's house and yeah, that's
Speaker 3: what we did and it was great, you know, So
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it's like a really interesting like how you
Speaker 1: can it's quite personal, but like whether you would have
Speaker 1: been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done
Speaker 1: this experiment like the year before you had a baby,
Speaker 1: and like maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's
Speaker 1: like wow, like in this weird way, like maybe you
Speaker 1: were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge
Speaker 1: on planet Earth. Like I heard this quotes like when
Speaker 1: you become a parent, you have to use every single
Speaker 1: skill that you've ever put on a resume, like and
Speaker 1: the ones that you haven't. So it be interesting to
Speaker 1: see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very confident,
Speaker 1: capable mother if you hadn't have done this, but it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fascinating, Like I would have loved to see a
Speaker 1: control group.
Speaker 3: I know I'm not very confident or capable as it is,
Speaker 3: but I will say that I think that doing.
Speaker 2: This experiment helped me decide to have a baby.
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, interesting.
Speaker 3: Like it helped me get more comfortable with the idea
Speaker 3: of having a baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because babies, listen, I don't have one. But they
Speaker 1: seem like a lot of work, and they seem like
Speaker 1: they will put you in like a state, like they
Speaker 1: will bring up all those challenges. So you know, the
Speaker 1: other day, this is like so funny, But I didn't
Speaker 1: realize you can't give babies.
Speaker 2: Water, not until six months.
Speaker 1: See, guys, I don't know if any of you did
Speaker 1: know that listener to the podcast, but I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: if I had a kid right now and no one
Speaker 1: had told me that, like that would have been real problem.
Speaker 1: Like what are the other things that I don't know
Speaker 1: about this? Like? Ready, you end up?
Speaker 3: You end up googling. Don't worry about that stuff. Don't
Speaker 3: don't worry about it right now. It's honestly you will.
Speaker 2: Let you will be googling. You will google.
Speaker 3: The internet has answers, you google everything. No one knows
Speaker 3: any of this stuff before they start.
Speaker 1: Let me hear you, guys, And I think it will
Speaker 1: be a long time. But I've got one final question
Speaker 1: for you. I'm gonna ask every single guest on the
Speaker 1: podcast the same question. What advice would you have for
Speaker 1: listeners in their twenties, Like, what's one thing that you'd
Speaker 1: wish you'd known earlier? And it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: about what we talked about today.
Speaker 3: I would say that my advice for people in their
Speaker 3: twenties is that it's okay to just pursue what you want.
Speaker 3: You don't have to do something that seems practical or
Speaker 3: like what other people want you to do, or just
Speaker 3: because you've always been doing it. You can It's a
Speaker 3: time of life when you can completely pick the thing
Speaker 3: that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want
Speaker 3: in the world, and just go at it with full force.
Speaker 3: That's what I would I would recommend doing.
Speaker 1: I also love that. I love that piece of advice.
Speaker 1: I would give that advice myself. Oh good, which is brilliant.
Speaker 1: Which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually,
Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to an article
Speaker 1: that you wrote that I think is really would be
Speaker 1: really amazing. It's called the Joy of Underperforming. I think
Speaker 1: you wrote it like a couple of years ago, maybe,
Speaker 1: But if you guys are looking for further listening, for
Speaker 1: further reading, I'm sorry Olgraman and not even let you
Speaker 1: give your own recommendations. I will in a second, but
Speaker 1: I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is incredible for people in their twenties. But well,
Speaker 1: it's great, but where else can can they find you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So our website is the Atlantic dot com and
Speaker 3: I'm a writer there. I can find me and all
Speaker 3: my brilliant colleagues there, and you can find my book,
Speaker 3: which is called Me but Better wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited for it to come out. Comes out today.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this the day that this is released,
Speaker 1: you can literally go and pre order a copy. And
Speaker 1: I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having
Speaker 1: already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like,
Speaker 1: there's much more there and so much more science and
Speaker 1: research and just like fascinating tidbits. So thank you so
Speaker 1: much Olga for coming on the show. And as always,
Speaker 1: if there is someone that you know who would like
Speaker 1: to listen to this episode who you think would be
Speaker 1: interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link.
Speaker 1: Make sure that you are following along. If you want
Speaker 1: to read us five stars, that would be very much appreciated.
Speaker 1: Until next time, thank you for listening, and stay kind,
Speaker 1: be safe, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very
Speaker 1: very soon