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Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in

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Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Back for another episode as we, of course break down

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Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties today, let's talk about destiny

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Speaker 1: or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed,

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Speaker 1: How it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how

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Speaker 1: happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a black box. Like we know it's shaped by nature

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Speaker 1: and nurture. We know that genetics are involved. How we

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Speaker 1: were raised is kind of involved. But I think as

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Speaker 1: we get older, we become more aware of the parts

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Speaker 1: of ourselves that are holding us back and that you know,

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Speaker 1: we really would wish for something different. Well, today I

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Speaker 1: have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that

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Speaker 1: very possibility. What if we could be ourselves bit better

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Speaker 1: by rewiring our personality? And want to welcome on author

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Speaker 1: and journalist Olga Hazan. Thank you for.

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Speaker 2: Joining absolutely, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm very very excited for this episode and this topic

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Speaker 1: in general. But before we kind of jump into it.

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Speaker 1: Can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work. Sure.

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Speaker 3: My name's Olga Hasan and I'm a staff writer at

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Speaker 3: the Atlantic magazine and I'm also an author of books.

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Speaker 3: This is my second book, and it is actually kind

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Speaker 3: of stems from a cover story I did for The

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Speaker 3: Atlantic a few years ago.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's my backstory.

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Speaker 1: And you're not gonna give us any spoilers. I feel

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Speaker 1: like the cover story, like you go into it kind

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Speaker 1: of in the book, right, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I can, Yeah, I can, I can. I can give

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Speaker 3: you a spoiler. So the cover story, I kind of

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Speaker 3: experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I

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Speaker 3: kind of realized that I needed to do more and

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Speaker 3: that it you know, kind of letting up on the experiment.

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Speaker 3: I backtracked. I noticed that I was sort of falling

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Speaker 3: back into old patterns. So the book is really an

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Speaker 3: overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts

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Speaker 3: to change on three of them, and because the other

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Speaker 3: two I actually don't need to change, they're find they're

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Speaker 3: very high in me as it is. But I do

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Speaker 3: interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to that because I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's such an interesting premise, But I do also want

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Speaker 1: to talk about how you became a journalist, how you

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Speaker 1: became a writer. I think as much as I love

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Speaker 1: interviewing people about the very you know, amazing niche things

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Speaker 1: that they're doing, and they're like whether it's psychology or

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Speaker 1: neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is

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Speaker 1: for people in their twenties, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind

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Speaker 1: of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating

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Speaker 1: high school to where you are now? Sure?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that's a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you were entire life please and thinks.

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Speaker 3: Graduated from high school like twenty years ago. Then I

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Speaker 3: went to college, did not major in journalism, but really

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Speaker 3: found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism,

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Speaker 3: and then I went to graduate school after I graduated

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Speaker 3: from college, which is not like a necessary step for

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Speaker 3: anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did.

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Speaker 3: Then I got a job at the Washington Post out

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Speaker 3: of graduate school, and I worked there for a brief time,

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Speaker 3: and then I moved to the Atlantic in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 3: and I've worked at the Atlantic ever since, and I've

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Speaker 3: done a couple of different jobs there, but I've mostly

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Speaker 3: been a writer covering like health and human behavior.

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Speaker 1: Well that's that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember,

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Speaker 1: like what your first big piece of writing was, like

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Speaker 1: your first article where you were like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: like I'm a journalist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that probably was. So when I did my internship

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Speaker 3: in college. I wrote one story during that internship. It

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Speaker 3: was complex why I only wrote one, but that was

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Speaker 3: like the amount that I was allowed to write, and

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Speaker 3: it was about online gaming addiction, and I remember when it.

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Speaker 2: Came out, I felt so.

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Speaker 3: Just accomplished, Like I was like, yes, like my life

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Speaker 3: is all coming together. And of course, like I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be a full time writer for I think eight years

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Speaker 3: after that, but it was it was like very good

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Speaker 3: motivation to keep going.

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Speaker 1: You know. I love stories like that where it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as

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Speaker 1: you said, you had this like what sounds like this

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Speaker 1: big accomplished moment, and you know it really didn't come

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Speaker 1: full circle until what did you say, like ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: almost maybe twelve years ago, which, Yeah, we love hearing

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Speaker 1: those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book.

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Speaker 1: The premise of this book was basically that coup of

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Speaker 1: story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality?

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Speaker 1: Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why

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Speaker 1: did you feel like you had to do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so your personality.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people think it's sort of

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Speaker 3: like what you like or dislike, or sort of the

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Speaker 3: kinds of things you say or whatever, but it's really

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Speaker 3: a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of

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Speaker 3: like something comes across your way and are you like, yes,

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Speaker 3: let's do it. Are you like, oh, I don't know

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Speaker 3: about that, or you know, It's kind of like how

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Speaker 3: how you interact.

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Speaker 1: With the world.

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Speaker 3: And I noticed that a lot of how I was

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Speaker 3: interacting with the world was not helping me really, So

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Speaker 3: the intro to the book kind of gives a good

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Speaker 3: overview of this.

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Speaker 2: But I had this day.

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Speaker 3: This is before I had a kid, and it was like, now,

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Speaker 3: having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually

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Speaker 3: like a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated. But

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Speaker 3: you know, it was like I got stuck in traffic,

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Speaker 3: I got a bad haircut, I got photos taken that

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Speaker 3: looked really bad. I had a stressful thing where I

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Speaker 3: had to like pick my mom up at the airport,

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Speaker 3: but I had to go grocery shopping before. But the

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Speaker 3: like there was like a delay at the grocery store

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Speaker 3: and then I was gonna be late to pick up

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Speaker 3: my mom. And it was like this whole thing and

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Speaker 3: I just had a meltdown. I got back to my

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Speaker 3: Rbnb that I was staying in and I like drank

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Speaker 3: wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time and.

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Speaker 2: Was just like I hate everything.

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Speaker 3: And then I kind of got to thinking and I

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Speaker 3: was like, even like me saying that now to you,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and like unappreciative

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Speaker 3: of the fact that like that day, you know, I

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Speaker 3: was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami, like

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Speaker 3: I got myself to Miami, uh, I you know, was

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Speaker 3: getting a haircut, like spa day for me, you know,

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Speaker 3: I got professional photos taken, like you know, and it

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Speaker 3: was sort of like I had this realization that like, wow,

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Speaker 3: I can take anything good and positive and maybe or

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Speaker 3: maybe even just like mediocre. Right, Like a lot of

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Speaker 3: things that happen in life are kind of like, eh,

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Speaker 3: that was whatever, you know, And I have a tendency

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Speaker 3: to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the

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Speaker 3: negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that

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Speaker 3: were not serving me. And it was made me like

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Speaker 3: not enjoy my life like to the extent that I

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Speaker 3: that it could have and should have been enjoyed. And

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Speaker 3: so that's kind of the long and the short of it.

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Speaker 3: Why I decided to change.

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Speaker 1: That's actually really interesting, and can I be honest, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality because

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Speaker 1: I had a day like that, like literally yesterday, like sorry, no,

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Speaker 1: I literally even got my hair cut, and like I

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Speaker 1: didn't like my haircut, and like my mom was literally

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Speaker 1: in town yesterday as well, and that's like honestly crazy.

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Speaker 1: So like, yo, I'm like hearing that story and like no,

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Speaker 1: like you just feel your emotions go, there's a.

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Speaker 3: Time and a place to feel your you can feel

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Speaker 3: your emotions. And also like look at the.

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Speaker 1: Bright side, you know, Yeah, I know it's just really funny.

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Speaker 1: And I think like what you're really pointing at is

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Speaker 1: like this wasn't like a one off situation, like you

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Speaker 1: had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy

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Speaker 1: your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well something needs to change in me. Why did you

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Speaker 1: hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of

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Speaker 1: personality rather than something else. Why didn't you like speak

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Speaker 1: spiritual enlightenment. Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh,

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Speaker 1: I need to change something about my lifestyle. Like did

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Speaker 1: you feel? Yeah, what was like the focus on changing

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Speaker 1: what I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right, like as a

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Speaker 1: building block.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So neuroticism was one of the things I wanted

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Speaker 3: to change. The neuroticism is one of the five traits,

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Speaker 3: and it's just anxiety and depression, right, And I had

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Speaker 3: a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety

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Speaker 3: and a lot of kind of negativity as I mentioned,

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Speaker 3: But there are other elements of personality and they sort

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Speaker 3: of encompass those other things that you mentioned. So actually,

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Speaker 3: as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing

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Speaker 3: I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of

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Speaker 3: Buddhist teachings because a lot of neuroticism it's not about

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Speaker 3: like reducing the number of things that happen to you

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Speaker 3: that are bad. It's I mean, although, like if you're

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Speaker 3: like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things

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Speaker 3: keep happening to you, Like that's something.

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Speaker 2: To look to.

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Speaker 3: But let's say you're like a like a functional person

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Speaker 3: who's who's you know, living like a basically normal life.

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Speaker 3: It's gonna be a lot easier to change your reactions

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Speaker 3: to the things that happened to you than it is

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Speaker 3: to like make every single thing in the world go

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Speaker 3: your way.

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Speaker 2: So that's why I kind of.

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Speaker 3: Like looked inward and and and personality does encompass a

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Speaker 3: lot of those things that you mentioned, so like spirituality,

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Speaker 3: Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was

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Speaker 3: really more extroversion, Like I wanted to become more extroverted,

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Speaker 3: and that was a big part. Lifestyle was a big

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Speaker 3: part of that is sort of how often do you

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Speaker 3: go out to socialize and do you make an effort

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Speaker 3: to do that? You know, not just like do you

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Speaker 3: sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you,

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Speaker 3: but do you make connections do you try to get

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Speaker 3: out there? So those those are things that I did,

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Speaker 3: but I called it personality change because personality includes all that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that makes a lot more sense. So in this

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Speaker 1: like endeavor to change your personality, did you figure out

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Speaker 1: like who the happiest kinds of people were? Like, was

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Speaker 1: there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people

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Speaker 1: are extroverted and are low and neuroticism and like high

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Speaker 1: and openness to experience. Its like thinking about like the

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Speaker 1: big five. What did you come across in your research?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so people are not going to be thrilled to

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Speaker 3: hear this, but the happiest people are like high in

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Speaker 3: all the traits except for neuroticism. So so there's five traits.

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Speaker 3: I will just briefly say what they are. It's so

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Speaker 3: openness to experience. Happy people are high on that because

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Speaker 3: that's like yeah, spiritual but not religious, like creative, imaginative conscientiousness,

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Speaker 3: which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being

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Speaker 3: places on time and being like healthy and exercising. Happy

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Speaker 3: people tend to be high in that extroversion. Extroverts are happier.

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Speaker 3: That's like a really consistent finding in psychology.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately I was.

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Speaker 3: I'm an introvert, and I was not thrilled to hear

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Speaker 3: that agreeableness. Agreeable people are are happier. They're always like

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Speaker 3: making friends and going to baby showers and what have you.

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Speaker 3: And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness.

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Speaker 3: And so the opposite of it is emotional stability, that's

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Speaker 3: what it's called, and people who are high in that

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Speaker 3: are happier.

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Speaker 1: Kind of rough, not gonna lie h Like, I'm an

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Speaker 1: introvert and I have anxiety. I think like maybe caveat,

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Speaker 1: Like I'll put the caveat in. Like, sometimes I think

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Speaker 1: that it's like our introverts less happy, or the scales

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Speaker 1: by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts, right,

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Speaker 1: because who's going to participate in those early studies that

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Speaker 1: like created indicators of happiness. It's going to be the

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Speaker 1: people who have a lot of friends so we can

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Speaker 1: invite them to participate, and who were like, yeah, I'll

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Speaker 1: do this, I'll go out, like I'll get paid to

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Speaker 1: like sit in a room with a stranger for an hour.

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Speaker 1: Like So sometimes I think that, and I also do

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Speaker 1: think that, like what we'll get to is, even if

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Speaker 1: you don't think you can change your personality, you can

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Speaker 1: most certainly manage it, and you can manage like medications,

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Speaker 1: and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists.

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Speaker 1: So don't see this as like a curve upon your

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Speaker 1: name if you kind of associate with some of those

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Speaker 1: other traits. But this kind of leads me to my

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Speaker 1: next question, like what age do you think our personality

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Speaker 1: really starts to stick at? What age do you think

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Speaker 1: we really feel like stuck in who we are?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would say there's not an age at

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Speaker 3: which we start to stick and who we are. So

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Speaker 3: that used to be the thinking this, Like influential psychologist

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Speaker 3: named William James had this infamous sort of quote that

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Speaker 3: like the characters set like plaster by the age of thirty,

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Speaker 3: and which is relevant for your podcasts for people in

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Speaker 3: their twenties. So, I mean even he said, like in

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Speaker 3: your twenties, you can still change, but kind of more

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Speaker 3: recent research has found that that's not really true, that

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Speaker 3: people kind of continue to change throughout their lives even naturally,

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Speaker 3: even if you don't really do anything to try to

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Speaker 3: change your personality. Is gonna kind of shift from decade

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Speaker 3: to decade. You're going to be a different person. And

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Speaker 3: you know when you have kids and like a job

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Speaker 3: than you were in college then you were in high school,

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Speaker 3: you know, And that is like freeing and it's kind

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Speaker 3: of scary, but it's also kind of nice that like

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Speaker 3: you're not gonna be like if you're not crazy about

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Speaker 3: something you know about yourself or about your life, you're

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Speaker 3: not stuck with it forever.

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Speaker 1: That is very very free and even like as we

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Speaker 1: get into like older age as well. Something that I like,

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Speaker 1: the statistic that I really like to talk about is

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Speaker 1: how by the time people reach like sixty and seventy,

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Speaker 1: symptoms of mental illness really decline, which I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I've always like thought about that and been like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that sounds great, like way for that, wait for that,

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Speaker 1: like maybe I'll have ten years of just like bliss.

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Speaker 1: But it is like a really beautiful thing that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned this. I hear this a lot. Like another myth

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Speaker 1: about personality change slash personality stuckness is by the time

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Speaker 1: you reach twenty five, like your frontal lobe is fully developed.

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Speaker 1: And I think we kind of think like I, hey,

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Speaker 1: so like that's it, Like, this is who I'm always

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Speaker 1: going to be. What evidence did you find like on

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Speaker 1: the contrary before I like really dive into your personal experiment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So so there's two kind of branches of evidence

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Speaker 3: to the contrary. So first, uh, your frontal lobe being

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Speaker 3: fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because

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Speaker 3: we don't have like a lobe in our brain that

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Speaker 3: is where the personality lives. So like even if they

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Speaker 3: study like brain changes or you know, like those like

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Speaker 3: fMRI studies where it's like brains lighting up, those don't

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Speaker 3: necessarily correlate perfectly with personality necessarily. So there's kind of

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Speaker 3: two elements to this. The first is that when researchers

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Speaker 3: have followed people you know, and given them personality tests

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Speaker 3: over and over across the years, they do find that

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Speaker 3: people change, you know, they tend to change in certain

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Speaker 3: ways over time. So, like you mentioned that people become

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Speaker 3: kind of mentally healthier in old age, neuroticism does go

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Speaker 3: down naturally across your life. So if you feel like

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Speaker 3: you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age people

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Speaker 3: become less so so that sort of just naturally happens.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to do anything. You don't have to

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Speaker 3: like take any lexipro that naturally happens for most people.

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Speaker 3: The other element of this is that if you actually

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Speaker 3: try to change, it can happen even faster. So there's

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Speaker 3: been studies that show the people who get therapy, for example,

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Speaker 3: become less neurotic, and in a short period of time

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Speaker 3: they become a lot less neurotic neurotic than you would

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Speaker 3: expect them to having, just like naturally, you know, decline

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Speaker 3: and neuroticism. And the same with some of the studies

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Speaker 3: that I cover with my in my book, researchers who

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Speaker 3: have given people these like challenges. You know, people will say,

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Speaker 3: I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to

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Speaker 3: make more friends, and they're like, okay, every day for

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Speaker 3: or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to

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Speaker 3: someone new and have coffee with them or have you know,

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Speaker 3: lunch with them or whatever. And they do maybe like

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Speaker 3: five to ten challenges like that over a period of time,

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Speaker 3: they actually find that they do grow an extraversion based

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Speaker 3: on personality tests that they take at the beginning and

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Speaker 3: the end. So not only do you naturally change, you

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Speaker 3: can also change through effort.

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Speaker 1: So a things like introversion, like I always thought that

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Speaker 1: they were vary, and they like it's a genetic Oh my,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like genetic predisposition, it's temperament, but you're

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Speaker 1: saying that, actually, no, it's more of a nuts effecta

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Speaker 1: well being like environment.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, yeah, so it's both. So, so genetics is responsible

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Speaker 3: for about forty to sixty percent of our personality. And

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Speaker 3: even it's not like direct like if you think about

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Speaker 3: either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either

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Speaker 3: of them, right, You're probably like you have like elements

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Speaker 3: of them, but you're not like they're twin like you.

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Speaker 3: You kind of most people are. I mean usually people

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Speaker 3: are relieved to hear this, like not exactly like either

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Speaker 3: either parent, right, so you get a little bit like

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Speaker 3: you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural

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Speaker 3: proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, there's other there's like this

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Speaker 3: you know, forty to sixty other percent of personality that

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Speaker 3: we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's

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Speaker 3: not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. It's

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Speaker 3: like it's like kind of that, but it's also like

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Speaker 3: your friends. It's like, did you go to college, what

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Speaker 3: kind of job do you have? You know, do you

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Speaker 3: make an effort to like read self help books. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb

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Speaker 3: into yourself that create that other part of personality. So

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Speaker 3: that's the kind of element that I'm talking about, is

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Speaker 3: that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are

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Speaker 3: totally bookish and hate talking to people, you're gonna naturally

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Speaker 3: be kind of like I feel really introverted. But if

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Speaker 3: but if you, you know, go into a job in

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Speaker 3: sales and you talk to people you know all day

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Speaker 3: and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like

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Speaker 3: high fives and promotions for being extroverted, like you're gonna

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Speaker 3: be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would.

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Speaker 2: Be, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does

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Speaker 1: kind of work, Like yeah, yeah, absolutely rewarded. See. I

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Speaker 1: find this really interesting because like my parents are so

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Speaker 1: totally opposite each other, Like they are the perfect definition

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Speaker 1: of like opposites attract. Like my dad is like a

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Speaker 1: stay at home dad and like we call him like

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Speaker 1: a charity wife. Like he runs like a non for

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Speaker 1: profit like giving bags to refugee children in Australia, and like,

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Speaker 1: then my mom is like a like badass like Cee

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Speaker 1: R and like she has like she is older, like

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Speaker 1: she is the lowest person, like the lowest neuroticism levels

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen in an individual, Like I have never

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Speaker 1: seen that woman break a sweat. She is not anxious

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Speaker 1: at all, like nothing phases her. And then my dad

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Speaker 1: is like the complete opposite, and it's like completely like

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Speaker 1: he's not completely anxious, but he's very anxious and very

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Speaker 1: existential and very like in his own head about very

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Speaker 1: deep things. And it's really funny like seeing like me

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Speaker 1: and my sister's always joked that it was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of us got my mom's jeans and my other

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Speaker 1: me and my other sister got my dad's jeans, and

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Speaker 1: it was like damn, like if I could switch, like

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Speaker 1: I totally.

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Speaker 2: So yeah yeah yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: But then again it's like me and my sister like

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Speaker 1: not to like tell her story, but had had very

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Speaker 1: different approaches to like how he faced neuroticism and like

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Speaker 1: and other things as well, and like agreeable and all

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Speaker 1: those things, and like there's definitely has been a difference

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Speaker 1: in like how we've approached it and how we've changed

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Speaker 1: as people. So I'm ranting. Really, what I want to

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Speaker 1: get to is what you found in yourself. But we're

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Speaker 1: going to take a tiny break and we'll be back

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Speaker 1: in just a second. Stay tuned. We are back with

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Speaker 1: Oga Hazan talking about can we change our personality? This

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Speaker 1: is kind of the crux of this whole interview. What happened? Firstly,

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Speaker 1: what did you do? And secondly what did you find?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's like the whole book, So let me

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Speaker 3: just break it down into let's talk about extraversion first,

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Speaker 3: because I think that is like the easiest to wrap

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Speaker 3: your head around and also has had the clearest results.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so extraversion.

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Speaker 3: Basically the secret to increasing extraversion is to socialize with people.

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Speaker 3: Some of the other traits are more existential and more

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Speaker 3: like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think

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Speaker 3: about things. Extraversion is like very clear cut, go talk

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Speaker 3: to people, like go do activities. So I signed up

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Speaker 3: for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for Improv

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Speaker 3: Sailing Club, a bunch of meetup groups, so which is

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Speaker 3: like groups of strangers meeting up. Literally, I like throw

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Speaker 3: a party at my house. I just went out all

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Speaker 3: the time. I went from basically going out maybe once

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Speaker 3: a week to going out like pretty much every night

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Speaker 3: or like not and not like going out drinking, like

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Speaker 3: although there was a lot of drinking, I get like

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Speaker 3: like just being around people. And I found that like

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Speaker 3: almost every time before I went, I dreaded it.

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Speaker 2: I did not want to go.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I hate improv I don't even know

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Speaker 3: why I'm doing this, it's stupid, Like I don't want

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Speaker 3: to go. And then almost every time after I would

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Speaker 3: do it, I felt better. I was like that was

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Speaker 3: super fun, or like that person in the sailing my

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Speaker 3: sailboat today was really interesting, or like that was cool,

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Speaker 3: or like hey, like I got to get whatever a

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Speaker 3: burger on the way back home, like there was something

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Speaker 3: that came out of it. Usually that I was like, huh,

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Speaker 3: that was like a nice break from the day. That

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Speaker 3: was like a nice way to like liven up the

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Speaker 3: day a little bit. And I think that's kind of

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Speaker 3: like the when I talk about increasing extraversion or like

434
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 3: changing your introversion. You can remain an introvert, but just

435
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 3: do like twenty percent more stuff like connect with people

436
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: twenty percent more, and there's a little bit of a

437
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 3: mood boost there. Like researchers who are introverts have studied

438
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 3: this concept and have found that like even just connecting

439
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: with people a little bit, and it doesn't mean that

440
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 3: you have to be like the life of the party.

441
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 3: Like I think people assume extraversion means like you're super

442
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: talkative and like can't shut up and you know, or

443
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: you're always telling jokes. You can like go hang out

444
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 3: with two close friends and like you know, listen more

445
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 3: than you talk and like knit the whole time, and uh,

446
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 3: that's still extraversion, that's you know, still being around people.

447
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 3: So yeah, I for that one, my introversion, my extraversion

448
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: did go up. And I think what I took away

449
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 3: from that is that like I do enjoy having fun,

450
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 3: I need to sometimes force myself to have fun, but it's.

451
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: Okay to do that.

452
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 3: Like it's okay to be like commit, you know, kind

453
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: of to an exercise class or to something else that

454
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: doesn't sound super appealing all the time but ends up

455
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 3: being rewarding.

456
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: This is what I always say, Like people will people

457
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: will dan maybe like how do I make any friends?

458
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: Or like how do I stop feeling like everything is

459
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: an effort and I'm like, pick two things to do

460
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: awake and do them in the same place at the

461
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: same time, and you will meet other people who are

462
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: doing this same thing as you, like, whether it is

463
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: it an exercise class or like an improv class or

464
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: a life drawn class or like social sport. There are

465
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: so many people out there who also want to make

466
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: friends and who also are like seeking connection, and there's

467
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 1: like no shame about it, either of being like, Okay,

468
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to train my brain to like this more,

469
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: because you do fall into a habit, like I'm such

470
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: an extroverted person. And last week I spent the entire

471
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: day at my house and like the entire week like

472
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: indoors working, and I had such cabin fever and I

473
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: was like, I've just I'm just so depressed, like I

474
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: just don't know who I am anymore. And then I

475
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: went and did like barefootballs with my friends and I

476
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: was like, wow, like life is so beautiful, Like look

477
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: at those flowers. It's like, yeah, yeah, giving your brain

478
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: what it needs. So extraversion was the one that you

479
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: saw an improvement in.

480
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: What about neuroticism, Yeah, so neuroticism I also saw an improvement.

481
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 2: So neuroticism.

482
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 3: I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot.

483
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: I and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy.

484
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it,

485
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: and I did not enjoy it after I was done.

486
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 2: It was not like that was really nice. Was like,

487
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: thank God, I don't have to do that for another

488
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: twenty four hours.

489
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 3: I signed up for a class where we had to

490
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: meditate for forty five minutes every day, which is so

491
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 3: long it's literally the longest forty five minutes of your life. However,

492
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: it did work. My neuroticism went down, and my anxiety

493
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: went down a little bit, but my depression went down

494
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: a ton. It went down a lot, like to basically

495
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: like not being depressed anymore.

496
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: And why that.

497
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: Happened, as sort of anyone's guess if I had to

498
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 3: like pose it.

499
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: Why that occurred.

500
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 3: It's that I did a lot of what's called loving

501
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 3: kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice

502
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 3: to yourself for however long.

503
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: And it's usually I do it to like a guide.

504
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: It at like a tape. Basically, people don't use tape anymore,

505
00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 2: like a recording, like.

506
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 1: A guided.

507
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly like a guided recording, and it's like, you know,

508
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: like like there's like the line that always makes me

509
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: cry is like there's you can search the whole universe

510
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 3: for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness

511
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: than you are yourself and not find anyone.

512
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: And it's like like oh yeah, you're.

513
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: Just like, oh my god, what this tape is.

514
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 3: So it's it's Sharon Salzburg and I use the ten

515
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 3: Percent Happier app for meditation.

516
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: Oh I love that app. Yeah, yeah, up from the

517
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: Yale Is it from the Yale person?

518
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: No, I think you're thinking of jud Brewer. The the

519
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: ten percent Happier is Dan Harris.

520
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes, he does a

521
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 1: podcast as well.

522
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: I think, yes, yeah, I mean everyone, yeah.

523
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: Everyone has a podcast. Is so embarrassed.

524
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, but but he Yeah, but it actually like really worked,

525
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: and I think like there's something about like repeating that

526
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried

527
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: to like hammer home the self compassion.

528
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 2: And I think it worked. Yeah.

529
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: Wow, see I get this like meditation. I've never met

530
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: someone who's been like I'm really into it all the time.

531
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: Like I do feel like you kind of have to

532
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: drag yourself into it, kicking and screaming. It's like when

533
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: you have to like get a needle when you're like

534
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: I really don't want to do this, or like go

535
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: to the dentist to like go to the doctor, and

536
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: then you feel amazing, like oh wow, that pain's gone.

537
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: Like that's what meditation sounds like. And it's just like

538
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: discipline towards your soul, right in the same way to

539
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: exercise your body, like you're exercising your mind, even if

540
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: it's like tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in

541
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: the moment, like it feels gives you strength later on,

542
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: I think it.

543
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: What it did is made me less afraid of my

544
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: negative emotions. So you're sitting there like sometimes for hours

545
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: and you're just like your mind is like going and going,

546
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 3: and it's silence, you know. And I think what it

547
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: does is like for me at least, I don't know

548
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: if this is like correct, but for me at least,

549
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 3: it made me like inevitably like negative feelings will come

550
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: up during that, but it was sort of just like

551
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: it's okay, Like nothing bad is really happening right now.

552
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: You're literally sitting in a room in your house on

553
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 3: a cushion, like meditating, but you kind of have you

554
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions if

555
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: you're someone who's prone to neuroticism.

556
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: But I don't know, it just lets you like kind

557
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: of not be as.

558
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: Thrown off by them or like because bad things are

559
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 3: still I mean my meditation teacher would say this all

560
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: the time, like things happen that you don't like, which

561
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: is like very simple, but it's like oh yeah, and

562
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: like you're just you're gonna have to deal with that

563
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 3: for the rest of your life and it's all about you,

564
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: know you. You know your mom you mentioned is like so

565
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happen to her, but

566
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: she thinks about them in a like somehow more zen

567
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret.

568
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: I would love to as well. It's crazy and she's

569
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: had a tough life, like not to give her story,

570
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: and I have done an episode with her where she

571
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: talks about it, but not even the full extent, like

572
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at

573
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: her and I can see like there'll be a time

574
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: that like me or my my sister will like be

575
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: panicking about something or being like, don't you just see

576
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: like how terrible this is? And I can literally just

577
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: see her looking at me being like no, like trying

578
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: really hard to have empathy for me and being like

579
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: I just can't do it. Like she she's incredible, and

580
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 1: like she has obviously like learnt what to say, but

581
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: she doesn't like feel it in her bones the way

582
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: that like my dad would or my sister would, So

583
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course.

584
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: Like she's pretty incredible. Okay. I want to ask this

585
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: question that I think everyone is probably thinking at this point,

586
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: you did all these amazing exercises. How long did this last?

587
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: As well? Like six months?

588
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: This lasted it a year?

589
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: Okay, A yeah? And when did that experiment end?

590
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: I honestly only had a year of book leaves, so

591
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: it was just like June of twenty twenty two to

592
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 3: June of twenty twenty three.

593
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, So like a year, a solid year. Have

594
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: you found that you've gone back to your old self since?

595
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: So in some ways but not in others. Since I

596
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: did that, I had a baby, and that necessarily like

597
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially

598
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: in the beginning. But I would say that there are

599
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: still a lot of things that I carried through into

600
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: even my life as a I guess I'm still a

601
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 3: new parent technically. So one example is like just reaching

602
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: out to other moms.

603
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: So it's a very.

604
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: Stressful time when you first have a baby, Like it's

605
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 3: just is there's no getting around it. You don't know

606
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: what you're doing, and they're very tiny and they cannot

607
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 3: speak to you, and so you're just like, ah, what

608
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: do you want? So I kind of made a point

609
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: of reaching out to other moms, and like I'm in

610
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: a mom's group that's been really supportive.

611
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: I also just like.

612
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: Really really try to even in day to day life,

613
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: if I meet another mom with kids the same age,

614
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: I really try to like reach out and at least

615
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 3: see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And

616
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: sometimes that means that I and this is not something

617
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: I would have done previously. I actually do a lot

618
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: of reaching out repeatedly. So like if someone, let's say,

619
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 3: I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's

620
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: have coffee, and we have coffee and we both have

621
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: a good time. I and then some time elapses and

622
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: no one follows up. I might reach out again, even

623
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: though it was me the last time too, and then

624
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,479
Speaker 3: I might do that like a third time. Like there

625
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: are some relationships where I'm just always the person who

626
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: organizes things, and that used to really bother me, Like

627
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends,

628
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 3: Like I'm gonna move on because they're not putting an

629
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: equal effort into organizing things, and like I don't I

630
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: don't want that. But I kind of just realized through

631
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: this that like everyone has stuff going on, and like

632
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 3: people just don't think about things the same way. They

633
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: are maybe swamped in other ways. They're may be like

634
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 3: not as comfortable with reaching out, Like I don't know.

635
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: It just made me like a lot less sensitive. I

636
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: guess about these like rules of social interaction that I

637
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: had previously thought were like iron.

638
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: Like laws, you know. So that's been one thing that

639
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: I've noticed.

640
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: Like yesterday, we went on a playdate to this woman

641
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: who I barely knew, just because I was like, I'm

642
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: really bored in if I have to like sing Baby

643
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 3: Beluga one more time, and I might, so it's like

644
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 3: let's go over to you Chan's house and yeah, that's

645
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: what we did and it was great, you know, So

646
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 3: I don't know.

647
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: I think it's like a really interesting like how you

648
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: can it's quite personal, but like whether you would have

649
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done

650
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: this experiment like the year before you had a baby,

651
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: and like maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's

652
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: like wow, like in this weird way, like maybe you

653
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge

654
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: on planet Earth. Like I heard this quotes like when

655
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: you become a parent, you have to use every single

656
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: skill that you've ever put on a resume, like and

657
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: the ones that you haven't. So it be interesting to

658
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 1: see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very confident,

659
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 1: capable mother if you hadn't have done this, but it's yeah,

660
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: it's fascinating, Like I would have loved to see a

661
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: control group.

662
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 3: I know I'm not very confident or capable as it is,

663
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 3: but I will say that I think that doing.

664
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: This experiment helped me decide to have a baby.

665
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, interesting.

666
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 3: Like it helped me get more comfortable with the idea

667
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: of having a baby.

668
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, because babies, listen, I don't have one. But they

669
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: seem like a lot of work, and they seem like

670
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: they will put you in like a state, like they

671
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: will bring up all those challenges. So you know, the

672
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: other day, this is like so funny, But I didn't

673
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: realize you can't give babies.

674
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 2: Water, not until six months.

675
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: See, guys, I don't know if any of you did

676
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: know that listener to the podcast, but I was like, wow,

677
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: if I had a kid right now and no one

678
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: had told me that, like that would have been real problem.

679
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: Like what are the other things that I don't know

680
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: about this? Like? Ready, you end up?

681
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: You end up googling. Don't worry about that stuff. Don't

682
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: don't worry about it right now. It's honestly you will.

683
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: Let you will be googling. You will google.

684
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: The internet has answers, you google everything. No one knows

685
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 3: any of this stuff before they start.

686
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: Let me hear you, guys, And I think it will

687
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: be a long time. But I've got one final question

688
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: for you. I'm gonna ask every single guest on the

689
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: podcast the same question. What advice would you have for

690
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: listeners in their twenties, Like, what's one thing that you'd

691
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: wish you'd known earlier? And it doesn't have to be

692
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: about what we talked about today.

693
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: I would say that my advice for people in their

694
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: twenties is that it's okay to just pursue what you want.

695
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 3: You don't have to do something that seems practical or

696
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: like what other people want you to do, or just

697
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: because you've always been doing it. You can It's a

698
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 3: time of life when you can completely pick the thing

699
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 3: that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want

700
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: in the world, and just go at it with full force.

701
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 3: That's what I would I would recommend doing.

702
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: I also love that. I love that piece of advice.

703
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: I would give that advice myself. Oh good, which is brilliant.

704
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: Which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for

705
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually,

706
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out to an article

707
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: that you wrote that I think is really would be

708
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: really amazing. It's called the Joy of Underperforming. I think

709
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: you wrote it like a couple of years ago, maybe,

710
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: But if you guys are looking for further listening, for

711
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: further reading, I'm sorry Olgraman and not even let you

712
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: give your own recommendations. I will in a second, but

713
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow,

714
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: this is incredible for people in their twenties. But well,

715
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: it's great, but where else can can they find you?

716
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah? So our website is the Atlantic dot com and

717
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: I'm a writer there. I can find me and all

718
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: my brilliant colleagues there, and you can find my book,

719
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: which is called Me but Better wherever books are sold.

720
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: I'm very excited for it to come out. Comes out today.

721
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this the day that this is released,

722
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: you can literally go and pre order a copy. And

723
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having

724
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like,

725
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: there's much more there and so much more science and

726
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: research and just like fascinating tidbits. So thank you so

727
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: much Olga for coming on the show. And as always,

728
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: if there is someone that you know who would like

729
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: to listen to this episode who you think would be

730
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link.

731
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: Make sure that you are following along. If you want

732
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: to read us five stars, that would be very much appreciated.

733
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: Until next time, thank you for listening, and stay kind,

734
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: be safe, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very

735
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 1: very soon