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Speaker 1: The volume. The Colin Coward Podcast, presented by FanDuel Sportsbook.

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Speaker 1: Get started now, sign up promo code Colin so they

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Speaker 1: know we and I sent you. The Colin Coward Podcast

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Speaker 1: presented by the Fan Duel Sports Book. Hi, everybody, welcome

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Speaker 1: in to the Monday Morning Podcast. Ian O'Connor, who's a

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Speaker 1: New York Post columnist and has written a fantastic book

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Speaker 1: about Mike Shashevsky, The Rise and Rain of Mike Shashevsky

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Speaker 1: coach k At Duke. And it's interesting because college basketball

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Speaker 1: is my first thought today as Michigan and Wisconsin squared

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Speaker 1: off in a Big Ten game on Sunday. Now, by

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Speaker 1: this time you've seen the video of the coaches getting

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Speaker 1: into it and the players after that getting into it.

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Speaker 1: You know I would start with this. There are levels

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Speaker 1: obviously too bad behavior. So both Greg Gard, the Wisconsin coach,

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Speaker 1: and Jowan Howard, the Michigan coach, I think should be

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Speaker 1: suspended for their immature, juvenile, boorish behavior after the game.

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Speaker 1: As they got into each other's face, it appeared both

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Speaker 1: people touched each other. I don't care who did it first.

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Speaker 1: It's bad behavior. You're paid seven figures a year to

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Speaker 1: be the adults in the room. But of the levels

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Speaker 1: of bad behavior, which included Michigan and Wisconsin players getting

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Speaker 1: into like a fight afterwards, which has been underdiscussed, throwing

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Speaker 1: a punch by Juwan Howard at a Wisconsin assistant is

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Speaker 1: the worst behavior of all the really boorish, churlish behaviors.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he should be fired. But this all

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Speaker 1: comes down to ego. I went to social media. How

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Speaker 1: many guys said this, Hey man, you touched me. It's

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Speaker 1: game on. Well, no, it's not. You have to walk

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Speaker 1: away from that stuff. If you're a grown up that

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Speaker 1: wants to make five six seven million a year coaching

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Speaker 1: basketball at highest levels representing universities, it can't be about

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Speaker 1: your ego all the time. In life, Politicians sportscasters, basketball coaches,

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Speaker 1: public figures have to walk away from schmucks and jerks

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Speaker 1: and instigators. Okay, both coaches need to grow up. But

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Speaker 1: throwing a punch is the worst action of all the actions,

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Speaker 1: so therefore that's the one I would penalize and punish

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Speaker 1: the most. Some people said, well, Colin, in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: Bobby Knight did this and that. Listen. I'll never defend

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Speaker 1: Bobby Knight. He's my least favorite coach in the history

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Speaker 1: of my career. But in the eighties we smoked on airplanes.

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Speaker 1: Let's not take the behavior that was accepted in the

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Speaker 1: eighties and say in twenty twenty two it's all good.

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Speaker 1: Bobby Knight would not last today. Bobby Knights should not

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Speaker 1: have lasted in the nineties. It's embarrassing. And Ian O'Connor

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Speaker 1: writes about some of these instances. It's embarrassing that people

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Speaker 1: defended him and did for two and three decades. But

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Speaker 1: it's twenty twenty two. Joan Howard knows better and Greg

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Speaker 1: Gard knows better. Both the guys need to grow up.

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Speaker 1: I've always liked Phil Nicholson, the golfer, but he had

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Speaker 1: a tone deaf explanation for why he's supporting a Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabian back super golf league that's attempting to lure players

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Speaker 1: away from the PGA Tour. The new super Golf league

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Speaker 1: is proposing that some players would receive guaranteed money upwards

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Speaker 1: of thirty million a year. They would basically get paid

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Speaker 1: no matter how they play, like NFL or NBA stars.

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Speaker 1: Michelson's biographer quoted him saying, quote, we know they killed Kashogie,

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post journalist, and have a horrible record on

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Speaker 1: human rights. They execute people over there for being gay.

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Speaker 1: Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it?

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Speaker 1: Because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to

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Speaker 1: reshape how the PGA Tour operates. If you say something

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Speaker 1: and it sounds like an onion headline, you may want

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Speaker 1: to attract it as soon as you can. Listen when

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Speaker 1: you watch the PGA Tour, do you ever think, man,

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Speaker 1: these athletes look like they're being treated poorly. Come on now,

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Speaker 1: last year, the average player made one point five million dollars.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there have been multiple times in the last

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Speaker 1: twenty years the highest paid athlete in America has been

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Speaker 1: a golfer. Tiger Phil Mickelson. Fact twenty seventeen, Forbes released

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Speaker 1: a list of the highest paid A leads ever. For

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Speaker 1: the top six or golfers, Tiger Arnie Jacket, Phil, Michael

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Speaker 1: Jordan and Michael Schumacher were the other two. Phil Mickelson,

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Speaker 1: according to Forbes, has made eight hundred and fifteen million dollars. Phil,

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Speaker 1: when you say things and it sounds like an onion headline,

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Speaker 1: you got to retract it. Something else that happened over

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Speaker 1: the weekend. Rich Ornberger, former NFL player, a radio host

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Speaker 1: in San Diego and a frequent guest on my show,

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Speaker 1: The Very Popular Heard. I'm sure you've seen it. Most

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Speaker 1: of America has AnyWho. He came out and said with

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Speaker 1: absolute conviction, and he's got connections all over the league.

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Speaker 1: That Brady and arians relationship soured. My first takeaway is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you tell me the superstar in American sports

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Speaker 1: that likes being shouted out and ripped by his coach regularly.

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Speaker 1: I never liked when Arians did that. He has a

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Speaker 1: right too, he's the head coach coach, but Bruce can

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Speaker 1: be very loose in his coaching, in his style, and

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Speaker 1: I thought ripping Brady repeatedly publicly was poor form. Tom's

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Speaker 1: a good guy, but he's got an ego. He's the

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Speaker 1: best player in the history of the most popular domestic league.

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Speaker 1: I'd use discretion when ripping him publicly. So when I

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Speaker 1: hear these stories by rich Orenberger, I absolutely believe them.

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Speaker 1: I think Tom is retired for good. But I do

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Speaker 1: think some of the suggestions that he would consider the

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Speaker 1: forty nine ers, if they called, are real from their

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Speaker 1: favorite team. Total respect for Kyle Shanahan. They're built to

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Speaker 1: win now. They're very run centric, They're built for an

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Speaker 1: older quarterback. He doesn't have to throw forty five times.

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Speaker 1: Kyle Shanahan would prefer he throws twenty seven times now.

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Speaker 1: The division's tough. It'd be another system he has to learn,

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Speaker 1: and shanahan system is usually better for all quarterbacks Ryan

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Garoppolo in the second year. But I think he'd

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Speaker 1: consider it. He'd have a glass of wine with Gizelle

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Speaker 1: and they discuss it in their Coast of Rico village

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Speaker 1: they own, maybe an island for all I know, who knows,

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Speaker 1: but it's worth discussing. When I retire, somebody may come

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Speaker 1: and make me an offer, and I'm seventy years old

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Speaker 1: and then maybe an offer. I go, oh, consider it.

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Speaker 1: But I think Tom is a person that what he

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Speaker 1: says he believes, and what he says he usually does.

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Speaker 1: And I do think he's got a fairly broad life, kids, wife, businesses.

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Speaker 1: He'll stay retired. But the Niners offer would be worth

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Speaker 1: a glass of veno with your wife to discuss. All right,

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Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite guys that's ever written

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Speaker 1: a column I think sometimes columnists, not all, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of columnists to get it. To be a columnist,

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Speaker 1: you have to be a great writer. But sometimes when

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Speaker 1: a columnist becomes a columnist, they forget how good of

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Speaker 1: a reporter they were and what ian does. And I

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Speaker 1: think you do this better than any columnist in the country.

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Speaker 1: You're still a dogged reporter and a columnist, So you

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Speaker 1: remember your roots. We all in our twenties, we didn't

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Speaker 1: have these glamorous columnists and talk show jobs, so we

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Speaker 1: were covering you know, probably you were probably covering Ithaca

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Speaker 1: or so. What was your first gig? Well, I actually

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Speaker 1: was chasing Jerry Tarkanian around Las Vegas for the National

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Speaker 1: Sports Daily. Frankdoford's ball sports newspaper, right, So I had

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Speaker 1: a blast doing that. That was It wasn't a full

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Speaker 1: time job, but I did a lot of that and

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Speaker 1: I learned a lot actually about reporting. And before that,

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Speaker 1: I was doing death notices, obituaries, town meetings, high school sports,

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Speaker 1: so you name it. I did everything. I answered phones,

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Speaker 1: I got people lunch at the New York Times, so

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Speaker 1: I paid some dues anyway, But covering Tark was fun

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Speaker 1: in Vegas. It was my first job out of college.

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Speaker 1: I got a job at the NBC affiliate. I covered Tark,

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Speaker 1: Tye and Trouble and it was a great time. Back then,

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Speaker 1: the mobsters were in Vegas and Tark was I had

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Speaker 1: a love hate relationship with Dark. But I will say this,

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Speaker 1: college basketball was more fun then. There was a lot

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Speaker 1: of characters, a lot of the Big East had a

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Speaker 1: lot of them. But you know, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things I tell people that sports is better today than

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Speaker 1: it's ever been, except college basketball. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: better twenty years ago, no doubt about that. Colin. I

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Speaker 1: used to love going to the Big East Tournament and

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Speaker 1: covering it. Now I couldn't tell you half the teams

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Speaker 1: in the Big East, and so it's all changed. I

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Speaker 1: remember tarkanean talk about colorful characters after he lost that

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Speaker 1: epic game to Duke in the ninety one Final four,

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Speaker 1: that that Vegas team might have been the best team

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen. Yes, unbeaten. Going in that morning, he

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Speaker 1: was upset about something I wrote, and he called early

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Speaker 1: that next morning. I don't know if he had even

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Speaker 1: gotten to bed. He was so upset about that defeat,

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Speaker 1: and he threatened to kill me. He did. He said,

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Speaker 1: I will have your head blown off, and I shook

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Speaker 1: it off. I wasn't too concerned that it was a

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Speaker 1: real threat. He was just so mad. By the end

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Speaker 1: of that night, he had invited me down for cocktails

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Speaker 1: in the hotel lobby. That was Tark, that was covering Tark.

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Speaker 1: He he would get so angry, but he usually would

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Speaker 1: forgive and forget. And I'll never forget that night hanging

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Speaker 1: out with Tark and his buddies, as if that phone

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Speaker 1: call never happened. Yeah, Jerry Tarkanian. I and a reporter

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Speaker 1: named John Henderson who has since retired and moved to Italy.

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Speaker 1: He covered college sports with a Denver post. I believe

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Speaker 1: we sat it was called I think it was called

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Speaker 1: Tarks and we sat and had drinks one night and

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Speaker 1: it was it is a top ten sports moment. And

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Speaker 1: there was one moment where Tark said that John, he goes, John,

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Speaker 1: if you ever admit this, I'll kill you. But I

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Speaker 1: actually took a suggestion from one of your columns last

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Speaker 1: month instituted it into a game plan. And if you

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Speaker 1: ever tell any buddy, and we were laughing so hard.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, years ago, a Tarcat and I

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Speaker 1: had our battles. Years ago, I was doing a live

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Speaker 1: at Penn State and his niece's adorable nieces came up

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Speaker 1: and he was still living and he said, our uncle

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Speaker 1: just wanted to say he's really proud of how well

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Speaker 1: you've done. And he watches and listens and he just

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Speaker 1: wanted to say he hopes things are going well for you.

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Speaker 1: And I thought it really made not only made my day,

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Speaker 1: it was a really warm gesture, and it you know what,

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Speaker 1: We're all human, we have bad days. We're all. By

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Speaker 1: the way, speaking of that, I'm not done with your book.

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Speaker 1: I have about thirty pages to go. The book is

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Speaker 1: called The Rise and Reign of Mike Shashevski. This is

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Speaker 1: airing on Monday. It'll be available tomorrow. It is absolutely fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Your level of reporting is insane. I don't even as

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Speaker 1: I read it, I'm like, Okay, how the hell do

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Speaker 1: you know the stuff? You're going back to Army games.

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Speaker 1: But here's what's fascinating. We forget we are so impatient

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Speaker 1: with the young people these days. Mike Shashevsky had a

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Speaker 1: losing record at Army five years into Duke. They were

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Speaker 1: getting sand blasted by acc teams, and they gave him

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Speaker 1: a contract extension. And I think that gets lost in

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Speaker 1: this is that you go back to John Wooden. As

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Speaker 1: you know, Ian, he didn't win big for a long time.

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Speaker 1: But let's go back and discuss this. This book is

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Speaker 1: so fun, it really is. When you bring in the

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Speaker 1: Bob Knight stuff, it is jet fuel to this book.

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Speaker 1: It is just you can't get enough of this. But

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Speaker 1: let's go back. How the heck did he get that

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Speaker 1: Duke job? I know because I read it. He had

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Speaker 1: a losing recorded Army, and in fact, Bob Knight was

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Speaker 1: a much better coach at Army than Shashevsky. It would

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Speaker 1: be easy to go, well, Night's the great coach. You're

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Speaker 1: a shadow of Night. Why did he get it well.

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Speaker 1: Knight helped him get it, and thanks for the kind words, Colin.

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Speaker 1: But Knight was a fairly big advocate of Mike getting

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Speaker 1: that job at Duke. Now he was nine and seventeen

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Speaker 1: that final season. Tom Butters, the ad at Duke, deserves

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Speaker 1: so much credit for having the you know what to

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Speaker 1: hire him at nine and seventeen coming out of Army.

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Speaker 1: Steve as Sendak was an official in the athletic department,

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Speaker 1: former player, and he was an advocate too. He had

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Speaker 1: seen Mike coach at Army and was a pretty big

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Speaker 1: believer in him and sort of, Hey, you don't know

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Speaker 1: how to pronounce his name, You certainly don't know how

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Speaker 1: to spell it, but the guy's a really good defensive coach. You, Tom,

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Speaker 1: believe in defense. Let's give this guy a chance. And

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Speaker 1: Butters loved him in the interview process. And he just

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Speaker 1: had a hard time pulling the trigger. How am I

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Speaker 1: gonna sell this to an acc fan base? Bill Foster

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Speaker 1: just took us to the National Championship Game. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: hire a nine and seventeen coach at Army nobody's ever

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Speaker 1: heard of, but he did. Those early years were brutal

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Speaker 1: and the boosters were calling for his head at fans. Students,

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Speaker 1: faculty members wanted him out. He lost, you said, acc opponents.

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Speaker 1: He lost a Wagner at home. You go back and

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Speaker 1: look at that Wagner team in the ECAC Metro. I

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Speaker 1: believe they were in. They were terrible in that conference.

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Speaker 1: They were losing to l i U Saint Francis of

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Speaker 1: New York, and they beat Duke at Duke. And that

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Speaker 1: was the point where it really looked like Mike could

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Speaker 1: not survive. Somehow he hung in there. Butters out of

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Speaker 1: nowhere gives him a contract extension and the rest is history.

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Speaker 1: He got that recruiting class billis Allery Dawkins Henderson and

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Speaker 1: in West Virginia. Yeah, Johnny Dawkins. There's a moment with

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Speaker 1: Johnny Dawkins where I mean, they beat Carolina and they

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Speaker 1: have this embrace. There's a funny line tell the audience here.

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Speaker 1: So it's really it's the moment, it's Mike's. It really

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Speaker 1: crystallizes to me the book. The center point of the

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Speaker 1: book is that moment where you know, Dean Smith is

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Speaker 1: godlike Mike at one point challenges the media to have

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Speaker 1: a have an equal standard. You treat them like this

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Speaker 1: and us like the little engine, which by the way,

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Speaker 1: they mostly were. But that Johnny Dawkins, that win, that moment,

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Speaker 1: that embrace in that story right and finally beating Carolina

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Speaker 1: in a big moment on a big stage. And before

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Speaker 1: that game, he had told his players at that point

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Speaker 1: Duke had gotten pretty good, so they were not a

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Speaker 1: huge underdog in that game, but expected to lose and

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Speaker 1: he told his players, expect to win, and when we win,

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Speaker 1: don't act like you haven't been there before. Act like

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Speaker 1: you expected to do exactly what you just did, which

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Speaker 1: is beat North Carolina, your biggest rival. So they win

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Speaker 1: the game, and Shashevski's dancing around. He's happier than anybody,

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Speaker 1: and he hugs Dawkins, and Dawkins says to him, Coach,

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Speaker 1: I thought we weren't really supposed to celebrate this, That's

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Speaker 1: what you said, and coach Kaw, I'm paraphrasing a little

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Speaker 1: bit because I don't have the page in front of me.

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Speaker 1: Shut up, Johnny, Let's just enjoy this, okay. So I

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Speaker 1: thought that was that really was a beautiful scene. And

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Speaker 1: but yeah, Shchevski was He did not follow his own advice.

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Speaker 1: His players tried to, but then they saw how happy

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Speaker 1: Mike was and they played along. The criticisms of Shashevsky

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Speaker 1: he had a little Bobby Knight, he had a temper,

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Speaker 1: he could throw a chair, he was smarter than Bob,

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Speaker 1: and that he knew when the cameras were on. I

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Speaker 1: mean we saw him bark on the sideline for years.

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Speaker 1: What is the criticism of Shashevski that you would buy

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Speaker 1: into that you think is fair because he's he's obviously

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Speaker 1: he John Wooden. You know they're in this rarefied Bobby

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Speaker 1: Knight or in this rarefied air. We all know the

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Speaker 1: criticism you know of Wooden, which is did he buy

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Speaker 1: some of his players? We know the criticism of Night

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Speaker 1: is he was really at times a bully and a

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Speaker 1: bad person. What's the criticism that lands to you on

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Speaker 1: Shashevski When you mentioned he threw a chair, he actually

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Speaker 1: did in practice at Army. He threw a chair across

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Speaker 1: the floor. And the player who told me that story

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Speaker 1: said he threw the chair. He wasn't throwing it at me.

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Speaker 1: He was throwing that chair instead of me, but he

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Speaker 1: was so angry. He did actually do something before Bobby

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Speaker 1: Knight threw a chair on TV in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the game. That's a difference. Mike did it behind closed

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Speaker 1: doors and Bob Knight did it on television in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the gate. So that sort of is where

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Speaker 1: those two. I always thought Mike would go up to

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Speaker 1: the line that Night would cross. But Mike would never

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Speaker 1: cross that line and certainly get physical with a player,

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Speaker 1: but the degrading language was so intense at times, I

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Speaker 1: do think it was too much, and most of that

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Speaker 1: was in practice. Tomo. The first time I sat behind

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Speaker 1: him at a game, it was at ninety nine sweet

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Speaker 1: sixteen against Steve Alford's Southwest Missouri State team, and I

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Speaker 1: could not believe for two and a half hours how

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Speaker 1: relentless the profanity was. And not just how relentless it was,

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Speaker 1: it was the profanity was not just your regular profanity.

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Speaker 1: It was really tough to listen to, and I was surprised.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. I said, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of grandmothers around America who would be mortified who loved

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Speaker 1: this guy if they ever sat behind him. But I

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Speaker 1: think the criticism, to me that is very fair is

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Speaker 1: he has a hard time ever saying I'm wrong. It's

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but guess what you were wrong too? The

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Speaker 1: mistakes he made with the Jeff Capel chance, with attacking

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Speaker 1: or ambushing the student sports staff of the student newspaperback

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety and then he can't ever really apologize fully.

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Speaker 1: The Dylan Brooks thing, it's always I was wrong, but

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Speaker 1: guess what you were wrong too? So he's very sensitive

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Speaker 1: to criticism. He has a very hard time saying I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: I would say though overall his flaws are fairly benign

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Speaker 1: for the most part, but they're there, and I do

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Speaker 1: document them in the book. I really do hold him

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Speaker 1: in a very elite class. I've always, I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: I've been forced to separate art from artist. So Bobby

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Speaker 1: Knights to me despicable in so many ways. But I

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Speaker 1: do think creating the motion offense maybe the best basketball

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Speaker 1: team in this you know, seventies that undefeated Indiana team, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, in your book it's detailed the Indiana

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Speaker 1: players thought the team the year before was better than

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Speaker 1: that team, although they had a heartbreaking loss. I do

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Speaker 1: think I didn't see Moliba, but the Kentucky coach, well,

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Speaker 1: Joby Hall, Joeby Hall, Joeby Hall. Might I apologize, but

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Speaker 1: I think wouldn't Bobby Knight coach k am I missing

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Speaker 1: somebody Ian Smith, if you're talking about right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you want to put up there, although I have

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Speaker 1: a hard time putting up anywhere based on the way

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Speaker 1: he conducted his program, and obviously he discriminating against African

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Speaker 1: American players, So I don't put him on the mount.

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Speaker 1: But I think Schefsky and Wooden are one in one A.

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Speaker 1: I would put Mike ahead of John Wooden. Actually, he's

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Speaker 1: won five hundred and thirty more games than John Wooden.

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Speaker 1: I believe durability matters. They both went to twelve final four.

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Speaker 1: As I understand the Wooden crowd says, it's a ridiculous comparison.

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Speaker 1: It's ten to five at national titles. How can you

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Speaker 1: put the two in the same category? But no, I

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Speaker 1: think when you've won five hundred and thirty more games

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Speaker 1: in a tougher era, to do it with parodies and

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Speaker 1: one and done all the things Coach K had to

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00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: adapt to that wouldn't didn't really have to worry about.

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Speaker 1: I would go Mikeschowski one, John Wooden one. A College

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Speaker 1: sports now are going through an interesting time transfer portal, name,

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Speaker 1: image likeness. Coach K is still very good, do you think,

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Speaker 1: and he's pretty spry for his age. Do you think

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Speaker 1: any of the changing of the sport? A couple of

387
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: years ago he was really critical publicly that he was

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Speaker 1: so disappointed in the lack of leadership in the sport.

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Speaker 1: Roy Williams, by the way, could have continued to coach

390
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Speaker 1: although for some reason to me it feels like coach

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Speaker 1: K has more prime years than Roy did at the end.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there are, you know, mitigating factors why

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Speaker 1: coach K retired or is it just I did it,

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Speaker 1: I'm done. It's a good number, I'm out. No, I

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Speaker 1: think Colin there are mitigating factors. And he said the

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Speaker 1: pandemic had nothing to do with it. He said, the

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Speaker 1: new era of college basketball, there's free agency through the

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Speaker 1: transfer portal, nil being a part of that and an

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Speaker 1: extension of that. I think that definitely was a factor,

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Speaker 1: because he talked to some of his friends about those

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Speaker 1: very things, and those friends told me about that that

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Speaker 1: he was saying those things, and so I think there

403
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Speaker 1: were a number of different factors. Certainly, age seventy five,

404
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Speaker 1: it's time. He does want to spend more time with

405
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Speaker 1: his grandchildren, his family, his wife Mickey. Those things are

406
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: all true, but that the pandemic really wore him down.

407
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: He did that was a bad team last year. He

408
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: did a bad coaching job with a bad team, and

409
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Speaker 1: so he knew this team was going to be better

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Speaker 1: than that. And I think he did want to end

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Speaker 1: obviously on a good note. But he told some of

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Speaker 1: his friends. Hey, I don't know who's coming and going.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who's in quarantine today, who's coming to practice?

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Speaker 1: Are we going to have our game played tonight or

415
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Speaker 1: will it be canceled? So that did wear him down

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Speaker 1: without question I think also, I don't know who's coming

417
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Speaker 1: and going in the transfer portal, and I think that

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Speaker 1: threw him for a bit of a tizzy without questions.

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Speaker 1: So those factors were part of it. He said they

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Speaker 1: were not, and I just frankly don't believe that part

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Speaker 1: of his explanation anyway. The book is called The Rise

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Speaker 1: in Rain Coach k The Riseing Rain of Mike Shashevski.

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Speaker 1: It's really it's so instructive. There's so many historic elements

424
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: to it, fascinating stories. I just think you'll love it, folks.

425
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: I think you'll really really love it. And I say

426
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: this with a bit of disappointment. Is my first job

427
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: out of college, I covered tark so the first sport

428
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: that I really covered. The first two sports I covered

429
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: that were big time that made me feel like I

430
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: belonged were boxing in Vegas Tyson Fight Sugary Leonard Herns

431
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: and college basketball. I was at when David Robinson was

432
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: at Navy, Pat O'Brien was on the sidelines. It was

433
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: really appointment viewing. We get that so infrequently now in

434
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: college basketball, So I just couldn't recommend this more highly

435
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: to any of you. I want to talk about a

436
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: couple of New York things because I regret it if

437
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: I didn't. Sometimes things are simply coincidental. But the sports

438
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: right now in New York are so bad across the

439
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: board and disappointing. The Yankees certainly have talent, but I

440
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: don't always think it's the shrewdest front office. Is it

441
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: coincidental or is it tax rates, bad weather, bad ownership?

442
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, for instance, we have some of those issues,

443
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: high taxes, big city, yet our teams are across the

444
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: board really strong. Lakers obviously are going through a tough

445
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: time as they age. But how do you have a

446
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 1: theory of belief of it's been several years now here

447
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: Ian's it's been half a decade of just Drek Why well,

448
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: I think Colin the Knicks are in their own category

449
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: of terrible management ownership for the better part of twenty years.

450
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: You thought last year they got it right with TIBs,

451
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: and now they're sort of back to where they were

452
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: pre TIBs. And I think two things happen with the

453
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: Yankees and the Giants is Derek Jeter and Eli Manning

454
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: got old and that changed things around the same time

455
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: for those franchises. And I think part of it is

456
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: colin that the world is so small now that New

457
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: York doesn't have the advantage it used to have. It

458
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: used to be in free agency. Hey, come to New York.

459
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: You can enjoy all the spoils of big market New York. Well,

460
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: you can get that anywhere now. And I think this

461
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: shrinking world has shrunk New York to some degree, and

462
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: the advantage that the big city had is really off

463
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: the table now. Free agents don't care. I can get

464
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: that in Cleveland. I can get that in Oklahoma City.

465
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: I can get it in Houston. I can get it anywhere.

466
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: So I think part of the problem if you're looking

467
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: for a trend or a narrative thread to run through

468
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: the dysfunction and losing in New York that we've seen

469
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: over the years. To me, as I thought about it,

470
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: that is the first thing that comes to mind. And

471
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: Los Angeles probably survives that because a it's Mediterranean weather,

472
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: and b there are so many entertainment options and soilary

473
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: income opportunities out here. I mean, it's there's a YouTube

474
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: building next to my house, and Google's down the street

475
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley out here in northern California. So I think

476
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: to some degree, I mean, I think you've really hit

477
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: on it. I think LA survives that because it's it's

478
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: a very easy you know, New York largely a lot

479
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: of this is it's a it's a football shaped island

480
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: you build vertically. It's it's it's a lot of noise,

481
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: it's a lot of congestion. In Los Angeles. You can

482
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: live in Malibo, a thousand oaks and literally high from

483
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: the fans. Can't. I mean, you really can't. It's the biggest,

484
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: second biggest county in America. I never see rams in town.

485
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: I've been here six years. I've never seen a single

486
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: Los Angeles ramp at any event anywhere in town. You Know.

487
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: It's amazing too, is when I think of LA, I

488
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: just automatically gravitate toward the Lakers. And we talk about

489
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: terrible ownership and management in New York with the Knicks.

490
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: You have the opposite of that with the Lakers. It's

491
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 1: funny Laker dysfunction over the years. Phil Jackson in fighting

492
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: with others in the organization. Meanwhile they're they're competing four championships,

493
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: winning championships. Shack is fighting Kobe's. That's a problem. Well,

494
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: it's their dysfunction compared to Nick's dysfunction. And New York

495
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: fans would take that in a heartbeat. I mean that trade.

496
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: And so I think LA is defined by the Lakers,

497
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: and the Lakers are almost always there. I know this

498
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: year has been a big disappointment, but there'll be back

499
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: next year. Davis will come back on a mission not

500
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: making the All Star team. He'll be healthy again, and

501
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: I think Lebron will win another title or two, and

502
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: LA will be carried by a very functioning basketball organization

503
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: while New York is being dragged down by the very

504
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: opposite of that. If I said to you Giants, Jets, Mets,

505
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: because I still think the Yankees are a viable team,

506
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: I like Aaron Boone. They've got some really nice sticks.

507
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: They've still got, you know, they're the Yankees. They've got,

508
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, virtually unlimited payroll. But if I said to

509
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: you Giants, Jets, Mets, because those are viewed as really

510
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: dumpster fires. One of them, over the next three or

511
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: four years is going to remove themselves from that group

512
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: and start winning. Are you optimistic about one of those three?

513
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: The New York Mets? And I don't say that because

514
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: my wife is an absolute diehard Mets fan, has been

515
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: for forty plus years. I think I'm a bo ever

516
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: and Buck show Walter, yeah, and I think he'll come

517
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: in and they need that veteran presence. And they were

518
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: in the World Series what six seven years ago, so

519
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't that long ago when they were near the

520
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: top of the mountain, So I think the Mets I

521
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: would pick. I like Brian Dable's staff that he assembled.

522
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: I don't know about Daniel Jones, Zach Wilson, we certainly

523
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: don't know about. And those two franchises that Jets and

524
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: Giants haven't won a playoff game in a decade combined.

525
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: So if I had to pick one of those three,

526
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm pretty confident Buck Show Walter will make the Mets competitive,

527
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: make them relevant, so I'd go with them. Make sure

528
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: to check out the Draymon Green Show. I brought Draymond

529
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining

530
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: voices in sports. Unique perspective understands Behind the Rope also

531
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: chops up with guests like Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady.

532
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: Make sure download The Draymond Green Show wherever you get

533
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: your podcasts only on the Volume podcast Network. Finally, you

534
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: have a book, I Can See Behind You Belichick, which

535
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: was again classic Ian O'Connor, dogged journalism and reporting. So

536
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: I saw a story this weekend, Brady, and you know,

537
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what to believe on social media. I mean,

538
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: the less I read it the better, but that Brady

539
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: would consider the forty nine ers. And I do think

540
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: there are jobs. I mean, you came back and you're

541
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: a columnist in New York. Those are prestigious jobs. You

542
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: didn't need to be a columnist, but there are calls

543
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: you get in your life and go, that's worth having

544
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: a glass a wine with my wife and talking about right.

545
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: And I do think San Francisco Kyle Shanahan, it's not

546
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: an offense that needs Tom to be He matches Tom's intensity.

547
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: They're both very smart, very intense. There's a Belichick in

548
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: feel to it. You know that's important to Tom and

549
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: just too loose. It would be an upgrade over Jimmy

550
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: g Maybe Tom's got a little of that. It's his hometown,

551
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: it was his favorite team I think he has. It's

552
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: also an offense that doesn't ian ask the quarterback to

553
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: carry them. It's really a run centric offense. Do you

554
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: think he'd take the call and give it a week

555
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: or two thought? Not only do I think he'd takes

556
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: the call call, and I think he's coming back. I

557
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: never thought this was the end of Tom Brady as

558
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: a football player. In fact, when he made his announcement,

559
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: I don't think he used the word retirement in it.

560
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: And so listen, I had a conversation with him on

561
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: the phone for about forty five fifty minutes twenty seventeen.

562
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: We were talking about him playing at age forty seven,

563
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: forty eight, never mind forty five. But he did set

564
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: forty five as a goal. He never falls short of

565
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: his goals, and he actually did so. I don't think

566
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: this was planned. I do believe, and I always thought

567
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: this that something happened down there that hasn't really fully

568
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: been detailed yet. Anyway, I never thought he was going

569
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: to love Bruce Arian style, the opposite of Belichick with

570
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: a motto win or lose we booze. That is not

571
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: Tom Brady's philosophy on football in life. So I think

572
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: he'll either play for the forty nine Ers after I

573
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: do think he'll take a year off, But I think

574
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: he comes back and either plays for the forty nine

575
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: Ers or Josh McDaniels in Las Vegas. So those would

576
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: be my two franchises to watch. And I think people

577
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: will say you can't take a year off at forty

578
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: five comeback and win a super Bowl at forty six. Well,

579
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: he's now created yet another challenge for him to conquer

580
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: by stepping aside for a year and doing it with

581
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: yet another franchise. So now I'm going to get eight.

582
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to be two ahead of Michael Jordan, and

583
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it with a third franchise. And

584
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: you're telling me I can't do that at forty six

585
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: and forty seven, Well guess what I'm going to do it.

586
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: So to be honest with you, Colin, I would be

587
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: shocked if he doesn't play again. You just convinced me

588
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: you've literally rocked my world. I literally, well, you know

589
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: him better than I do. Well, no, I don't, I don't,

590
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: I do not. He did not talk to me for

591
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: the book. I don't have a any sort of personal relationship.

592
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: That was my only one on one with him was

593
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: for ESPN dot com and it was about five years

594
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: ago and it was long. But I do not pretend

595
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: to know him. But I know a lot of his

596
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: friends and have talked to them extensively about this and

597
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: other subjects about Belichick a lot over the years, and

598
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: they would be surprised if he doesn't play again. And

599
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: that Arian's relationship I never thought was going to last.

600
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: It was, It was productive while it did last, obviously,

601
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: but he went to a coach who was the exact

602
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: opposite of Bill Belichick, and and it was a short

603
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: term thing. And now I think he's ready to try

604
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: it with a different franchise. And again, get who ring

605
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: number eight be two ahead of Jordan, maybe go down

606
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: as the greatest American team sport athlete ever. Certainly that

607
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: would enhance his claim. Yeah, I never liked Arians taken

608
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: repeated shots at Tom publicly. I think you could do

609
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: it once twice. Sometimes it sounded personal, a little harsh.

610
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: I think that's Bruce's authentic personality. But in my years

611
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: of covering athletes, even the gracious ones, you have to

612
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: use discretion when criticizing them publicly. And Colin I was

613
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: at his first game in New Orleans, I believe, and

614
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: they lost a first game with Tampa Bay, and Arians

615
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: criticized them after that game and his postgame presser. I

616
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. I remember writing about that. Belichick never

617
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: would have done that. Bill was tough on Tom at

618
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: all times in practices, in film study and so forth,

619
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: but criticizing Tom Brady after game he did that very

620
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: rarely over two decades. Ian O'Connor coach k the Rise

621
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: and reign of Micsha Chefski, absolute must read, my friend.

622
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: It was great as always, Thank you so much. Say

623
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: hi to everybody. His wife. By the way, years ago,

624
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: I had some speaking engagement at a bookstore and somebody

625
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: asked me about Ian O'Connor and I said, I love

626
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: you o'connory. Oh, you're one of my favorites. It was

627
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: your wife. I told her to ask that question. So

628
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: that was me great seeing you man, Hey, Thank you,

629
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: thanks for doing me a favor. Colin appreciate it. The

630
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: volume