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Speaker 1: Trust me?

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Speaker 2: Do you trust her?

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Speaker 3: I ever lead you astray?

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Speaker 4: Trust This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 1: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 1: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 1: and manipulation from two battie's in debt who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: Today's part two of our interview with Sarma mel Guiless,

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Speaker 1: author of The Girl with a Duck Tattoo, whom you

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Speaker 1: may have seen in the docuseries Bad Vegan. This week,

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Speaker 1: she is going to tell us about how her manipulator,

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Speaker 1: mister Fox, consumed her time, overwhelmed her with information, and

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Speaker 1: dangled promises of financial freedom that was always just around

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Speaker 1: the corner as a way to get her to borrow

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Speaker 1: and send him more and more and more money.

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Speaker 2: Damn this man.

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Speaker 5: She'll tell us about the fabricated online persona he created

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Speaker 5: as part of the manipulation, how he always knew things

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Speaker 5: it seemed like he couldn't have known if he didn't

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Speaker 5: have some kind of special power, and the tactics he

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Speaker 5: used to keep her in a constant state of confusion

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Speaker 5: and dependence, including an increasing barrage of tests, and then

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Speaker 5: we'll finally discuss how they drove across the country until

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Speaker 5: they were finally both arrested.

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Speaker 1: Plus how she felt about her time at Rikers and

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Speaker 1: the current status of her restaurant. Yes, indeed, I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy we got to have her on. I Like,

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Speaker 1: I've said it a million times in the interview, but

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Speaker 1: I just connect with so much about her story because

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Speaker 1: it's so similar to my mom's and hearing and reading

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Speaker 1: just like the details the changes. Oh god, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's really really insightful into the psychology of how

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Speaker 1: of the details of what happens. Megan, that's me. No,

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Speaker 1: Magnificent Megan, you don't know talk about it. No one

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Speaker 1: is going to understand this reference. But it's very funny,

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Speaker 1: I promise, Magnificent Megan. What is your cultiest thing this week? God?

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Speaker 5: Okay, Well, I mean this happened a couple months ago.

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Speaker 5: I've been hesitant to admit it because it feels shameful

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Speaker 5: to me, But after reading Sarma's book and knowing that

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Speaker 5: being open about these things helps, I'm just gonna say

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Speaker 5: it out loud. I got fucking scammed, bro.

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Speaker 1: You got scammed.

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Speaker 5: I got Target scammed hard? How will I will tell you?

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Speaker 5: Because I'm a person who's like pretty aware of scams.

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Speaker 5: I have the secret password for the family in case

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Speaker 5: somebody calls and like pretends to be kidnapped with the

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Speaker 5: like I am on top of my scammy shit, you

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Speaker 5: know what I mean. The other day, guy called me

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Speaker 5: and he was like, this has Chase. Did you just

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Speaker 5: charge nine thousand dollars to your card? And I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I did, and he was like it was in Florida

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Speaker 5: and I was like, yep, it was in Florida, and like,

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Speaker 5: I know when people are scamming me, okay, Amy who.

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Speaker 5: I feel like I'm pretty savvy about people trying to

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Speaker 5: scam me. However, when fear is involved, things get crazy.

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Speaker 5: And I got a message through my work email from

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Speaker 5: my boss that said, Megan, I need you to resent

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Speaker 5: your number.

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Speaker 2: I've lost it. This is from his.

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Speaker 5: Email immediately and I'm like, oh my god, it's blooda

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Speaker 5: da da da da da.

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Speaker 1: And he texts me and he's like, Megan, I need

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Speaker 1: you to.

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Speaker 5: Go grab me some gift cards from Target because I

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Speaker 5: made some people mad yesterday at the company, which I

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Speaker 5: knew is true, and I want to give them some gifts.

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Speaker 5: And I was like, that's so nice of you. I'm

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Speaker 5: really busy on this thing right now. And he's like,

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Speaker 5: I don't care. I need you to go now, and

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Speaker 5: I'm like what okay. Randomly my friend text me do

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Speaker 5: you want to go to Target?

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Speaker 2: What the fuck? Okay? I'm like sure, I'll meet you

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Speaker 2: at Target. So my friend is there and.

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Speaker 5: She's like like going down the aisle and I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I can't shop right now. I have to buy gift

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Speaker 5: cards for Target. Six hundred dollars worth of gift cards.

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Speaker 5: This man has me buy three two hundred dollars things. Okay,

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Speaker 5: I buy the gift cards. I'm like, weird, but whatever.

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Speaker 5: He goes megan, I'm so sorry, I need I need

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Speaker 5: three more, Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like is this coming from his phone number?

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Speaker 1: That's like no, no, the new number.

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Speaker 5: And I'm like, okay, fourteen hundred dollars this person has

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Speaker 5: me spending on gift cards. I go to a Target employee,

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Speaker 5: like the manager working behind what looks like the return

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Speaker 5: to usk talking to a girl and I'm like, please

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Speaker 5: look at these texts.

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Speaker 1: I'm so scared.

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Speaker 2: Is this illegal? Am I getting scammed, Like what's happening?

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Speaker 2: And because I'm such.

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Speaker 5: A goody goody tattletale like freaked out and he's like, no,

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Speaker 5: I mean it sounds like your boss was just a

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Speaker 5: dick to some people and months to be nice.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, wait, that's.

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Speaker 1: What the target is.

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Speaker 5: Because I gave him some backstory, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 5: Like I'm chatting a zero off, I'm yapping at him

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Speaker 5: and I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble.

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Speaker 2: My friend's like, let's go look at the beauty. I'm like, bitch,

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Speaker 2: I can't. I'm fucking I'm gonna work.

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Speaker 5: And wow, yeah, so them on the last fourteen hundred

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Speaker 5: dollars one.

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Speaker 2: I mean I only spent fourteen I'm the last buy.

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Speaker 5: My dad happened to call me, Oh thank god, and

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Speaker 5: I explained to him what I was doing and he goes, Megan, stop,

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Speaker 5: somebody just did this to one of his employees. Please

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Speaker 5: grab me some gift cards. I need it for the staff.

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Speaker 5: It made sense, and they're like, I'll reimburse you. I'll

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Speaker 5: reimburse you immediately.

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Speaker 1: Like Sam, that's such a good scam. That's such a

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Speaker 1: good scam. And was he like, and then give me

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Speaker 1: the number the car, scratch it off, send it to me.

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Speaker 2: I'm scratched to do it.

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Speaker 1: Oh of course, damn. I wish your dad had called

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Speaker 1: a little bit earlier. I couldn't have called a bit earlier.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, and I felt so stupid obviously, well thank you,

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Speaker 5: but like because the fear of it, I was like

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Speaker 5: arguing with my friend about you know, I was like

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Speaker 5: I have to hurry, Like there was just such a

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Speaker 5: sense of urgency within me of like I don't have

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Speaker 5: time to look at stuff.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I got think we should be on

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Speaker 1: the lookout for. It feels like it's it has to

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Speaker 1: happen right.

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Speaker 5: Now, like love bombing any of it. Like nothing's better

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Speaker 5: unless life saving medical.

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Speaker 1: If someone wants you to get gift cards urgently, right.

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Speaker 5: That CPR and the Heimlink maneuver, those are the urgent things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, not gift cards.

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Speaker 2: Not gift cards.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, the hard way When you looked back at

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Speaker 1: the email, was it actually from his email?

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Speaker 2: Like was he hack?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it's awesome that you shared that story because

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Speaker 1: that shit happens to so many people. It's I told you,

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Speaker 1: I've talked about the times that I've almost gotten scammed

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Speaker 1: by like someone calling me because they saw something on

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Speaker 1: my Twitter and they said they were from Twitter, and

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Speaker 1: they were like, right, yeah, no, that's so good to

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Speaker 1: know that. Are we able to like get a refund

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Speaker 1: or anything or no, partially, but some of it they're

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Speaker 1: just not giving me back.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it sucks.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: Well, I hope he enjoys whatever he's buying from Target. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know me, so I was like, damn enjoy the

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Speaker 1: Target cards. Well.

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Speaker 2: On a similar note, yeah, give me your cultiest thing

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Speaker 2: I was gonna do.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna do a K pop thing, but I

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Speaker 1: think I'm gonna switch it.

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Speaker 2: Actually.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, we'll talk about K pop another time. Okay, great.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I've written a couple of K

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Speaker 1: pop songs. I love k pop.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we love love k pop. No one is madic

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Speaker 5: k pop stands to know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the news Sora came out, Oh my god. As

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Speaker 1: our mutual friend posts videos, do you see these videos?

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Speaker 1: He posts all the time? Sign now, uh he loves it.

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Speaker 1: It makes me feel insane. There was someone who and

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Speaker 1: this is also relevant to I'm just gonna shout out

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Speaker 1: my friend's movie app of PHOENIAX because uh, it deals

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Speaker 1: with this topic in the form of a horror movie.

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Speaker 1: You can now put yourself into Sora. This program like

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Speaker 1: put your face in one time and it can have you.

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Speaker 1: It could create a realistic video of you doing absolutely anything.

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Speaker 1: It can put you into any TV show and it's

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Speaker 1: still like maybe a little rough looking sometimes, but it's

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Speaker 1: very realistic.

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Speaker 5: For how early it is a hundred of myself doing ballet?

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Speaker 5: Why ballet? Because lifelong dream? And I was just like,

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Speaker 5: what would I look like doing ballet?

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Speaker 2: About yes, but.

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Speaker 1: There was a man who like he just very easily

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Speaker 1: made it look like he had robbed a bank. It

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Speaker 1: is so easy now to put somebody's face in any

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Speaker 1: environment and to just make up a fucking video perfect timing.

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Speaker 5: With our current administration and all the things that people

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Speaker 5: are going to be able to say, that was aa.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: And also just like the scams that are going to happen,

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Speaker 1: the manipulations that are going to happen, it's very very scary. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you one thing.

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Speaker 5: A lot of people have been sending me their SRA

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Speaker 5: videos of themselves, you know, like eating with all this,

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Speaker 5: and I'm like, real talk, I'm not going to watch

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Speaker 5: your Instagram video of your actual life. I'm letting definitely

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Speaker 5: not watching a fifteen second fake video of you eating

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Speaker 5: ice cream on the moon.

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Speaker 2: Wait, it does feel.

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Speaker 1: Fair alert when people did all those there've been all

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Speaker 1: those like little Here's what I'd look like as a

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Speaker 1: cartoon character, Here's what I'd look like as an old person,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't care. But but the fact that you

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Speaker 1: could like forge someone doing anything and saying anything totally

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Speaker 1: and use that as a tool of manipulation.

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Speaker 5: And sometimes people are already believing that it's a real

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Speaker 5: thing that happened and it says Sora on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because people just don't know what that means. They

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's a Sora on it. Guys, it's

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Speaker 1: definitely fake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also, look at the fingers. Are there five or are

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Speaker 1: there more or less? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's scary. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like, I know that this is a big debate among

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Speaker 1: everybody right now, and there are people who are like, well,

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Speaker 1: farmers were afraid of technology and like get sure, but

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Speaker 1: like this is the most like aggressively egregiously unregulated scam

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Speaker 1: potential and manipulation potential and like propaganda potential technology that

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Speaker 1: we've ever seen. And so I'm I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: see what transpires. What videos you gonna do with me?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. We'll see.

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Speaker 5: You might have to you might have to start doing

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Speaker 5: a few of yourselves. Send it around because they need

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Speaker 5: a scam that face.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to. Don't scam my face.

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Speaker 5: I had to do that full face scam for those

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Speaker 5: ballet of videos.

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Speaker 1: I will not be doing that, but it will be

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Speaker 1: able to make me anyway.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't matter if you had a childhood dream. I

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Speaker 5: do suggest putting yourself doing the thing. My childhood dream

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Speaker 5: was to be a princess. Then you can make that

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Speaker 5: happen and it's kind of fun. But don't show anybody.

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Speaker 5: Don't send it to anyone because they don't give a shit.

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Speaker 1: Also, Ai, I just want to study that data centers

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Speaker 1: in the UK actually this I think I saw this

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Speaker 1: through our guest from next week. But the amount of

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Speaker 1: energy that the data centers in the UK are using

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Speaker 1: totally negates the impact of switching to green.

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Speaker 2: So you can see yourself writing away it's not worth it,

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Speaker 2: literally not. Our plan is.

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Speaker 1: A good point because the good magnificent Megan the whale writing.

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Speaker 2: Video that I made.

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Speaker 1: Okay, why did I also get a man writing a dolphin.

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Speaker 5: Because that's what you want to see, and like, if

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Speaker 5: we have to destroy our one planet, then so be it.

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Speaker 1: No, let's not, I know not. I like our plan.

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Speaker 2: It's beautiful for now. I love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, let's talk to somebody who actually is doing something

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Speaker 5: to save the planet, A meaning Vegan.

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Speaker 1: Oh good segue. Okay, here we go. Welcome back, Sarma.

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Speaker 1: We left off last week talking to you about the

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Speaker 1: amount of money that mister Fox had scanned you and

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Speaker 1: your loved ones and associates out of For someone who

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Speaker 1: maybe hasn't seen Bad Vegan or hasn't read your book yet,

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Speaker 1: can you kind of just like explain, like in simple terms,

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Speaker 1: what the scam was, like what he was saying, or

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Speaker 1: like what he made you believe would happen if you

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Speaker 1: gave the money.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it's hard to do concisely because, as is common

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Speaker 3: with these people, the story keeps changing over time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So in the beginning it was one thing, and then

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Speaker 3: over time it worked into something else, and then it

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Speaker 3: worked into something else, to the point where at the

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Speaker 3: end he sort of found a way to justify everything

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Speaker 3: he was doing. By that point, it was so far gone,

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Speaker 3: and I was so far gone that he justified absolutely

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Speaker 3: every horrendous thing he did, but specifically all of the

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Speaker 3: money as being a bunch of these tests. Had to

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Speaker 3: pass these tests, and getting the money was part of that,

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Speaker 3: and he acted like it was no big deal, like

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Speaker 3: he was just putting.

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Speaker 4: It somewhere, and it was all about.

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Speaker 3: These tests of loyalty, and also making me believe that

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Speaker 3: none of it mattered, because as soon as we were

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Speaker 3: done with this thing, which that goalpost kept moving, all

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Speaker 3: of these people would be you know, I'd be able

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Speaker 3: to pay them back double triple. I could money with them,

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Speaker 3: as you said, So by that point I was far

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Speaker 3: into the delusion. He spun these stories that kept changing

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Speaker 3: and changing, and then over time you leave in that

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Speaker 3: psychological aspect to where it it's harder and harder for

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Speaker 3: me to get out of because I'm in so deep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at first, it's I'm going to pay you back

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Speaker 1: and you're going to be rewarded with so much more money,

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Speaker 1: and then it sort of evolves and there's like a

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Speaker 1: spiritual component, yes.

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Speaker 5: Like now these tests aren't even on this realm anymore.

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Speaker 5: They're kind of yeah, like, can you kind of walk

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Speaker 5: us through what?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean?

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Speaker 3: Over time, he had me convinced, not convinced, but he

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Speaker 3: had me sort of always with one foot in his

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Speaker 3: reality and then one foot of not really knowing what

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Speaker 3: was reality, but making it seem as if he had

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Speaker 3: all these special powers and what's eerie now? And I

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Speaker 3: don't think I've talked about this on any other podcasts,

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Speaker 3: but I found it fascinating and I noticed.

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Speaker 4: It while I was working on my memoir.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'd already written the whole draft, but I

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Speaker 3: made sure to work these things in because I'd started

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Speaker 3: to hear things about Kabbala, basically from Instagram reels, and

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Speaker 3: then I got really curious and I was looking into

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Speaker 3: it because I was hearing things that were reminding me

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Speaker 3: of stuff that he used to say to me.

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Speaker 4: And so this idea that my.

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Speaker 3: Soul came here and my primary issue to work out,

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Speaker 3: which if you looked into Kabbala, like everybody has their

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Speaker 3: takoon is what it's called, and mine was financial and

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Speaker 3: so that that's why he was testing me on this.

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Speaker 3: And then a lot of other things, like he sort

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Speaker 3: of conditioned me to not get mad at him, to

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Speaker 3: not get reactive. But he explained that if I get

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Speaker 3: reactive in a situation and I lose my temper, that

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Speaker 3: that will lead to something bad happening, not just in

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Speaker 3: a way that we could all imagine would logically happen,

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Speaker 3: potentially for example, and I've heard this explained in Kabbala,

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Speaker 3: that you know, if you're reactive to something and lose

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Speaker 3: your temper and lash out of somebody or whatever you do,

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Speaker 3: that that might then be the cause of your walking

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Speaker 3: outside and tripping and spraining your ankle, which is totally illogical,

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Speaker 3: but in a spiritual world it's made out like there's

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Speaker 3: that consequence to your action, and so he presented it

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Speaker 3: to me in that way. And there are all these

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Speaker 3: other examples, like later on the really icky, gross like

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse stuff, he would tell me that he needed

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Speaker 3: my light, that it was like energy, that he needed

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Speaker 3: my light. And that's also something that I heard talked about,

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Speaker 3: you know, listening to kabbala stuff online where you know

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Speaker 3: your sexual energy is like a light in your murdering

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Speaker 3: with that person, and I just all, it's just there's

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Speaker 3: so many examples where what he was telling me, now

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Speaker 3: I see happens to mirror that stuff. And I don't

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Speaker 3: know what to make of it, but he certainly wove

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Speaker 3: in this spiritual component that just added to this sort

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Speaker 3: of confusing soup in which he kept me boiling.

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Speaker 2: Where you were human and he was not was oh yeah, yeah, Now.

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Speaker 3: He made it out like he came here and he

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Speaker 3: was shepherding me through this process and now I'm this

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Speaker 3: is very typical I think in cold situations too, is

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Speaker 3: like I'm chosen, I'm special, I'm the chosen one. So

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Speaker 3: even though I'm just used to call me as TBA

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Speaker 3: just tiny belong human, therefore, by implication, is not human

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Speaker 3: and is something more like some kind of a god

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Speaker 3: that came here.

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Speaker 1: And Yeah, I want to just like sort of reiterate

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Speaker 1: your point about the story changing, because I think that's

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Speaker 1: something that people who have never experienced this kind of

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Speaker 1: manipulation I don't think necessarily often understand. Yes, And what

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Speaker 1: we kind of see over and over again is that

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Speaker 1: like once you have formed that bond with the manipulator,

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Speaker 1: that trauma bond, or once they have like convinced you

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Speaker 1: that they are the authority, no matter how smart you are,

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Speaker 1: they have systematically reduced your critical thinking abilities using and

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Speaker 1: true tactics. So it's you're not in a position mentally

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Speaker 1: to be like, wait, but the story changed, because your

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Speaker 1: lifeline is the person who is the authority, and once

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Speaker 1: you have given them that trust and they are that

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Speaker 1: figure for you, then they can kind of change it

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Speaker 1: however much they want. Because my dude also the number

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Speaker 1: of spiritual systems or political like he morphs it like

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Speaker 1: every six months, what he is saying he's about or

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Speaker 1: what the belief system is, it doesn't matter, it's not

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Speaker 1: the point. The point is he's got these people who

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Speaker 1: he has manipulated who will do whatever he says because

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Speaker 1: they are trapped in this hole and they don't know

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Speaker 1: how to get out.

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Speaker 5: And a great example of that is like end time dates.

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Speaker 5: People are like, well, if somebody gives an end time

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Speaker 5: date and it doesn't come true, everyone's gonna leave.

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Speaker 1: No, people don't walk any harder.

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Speaker 5: Like the trauma bond, the cognitive dissonance, And there is

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Speaker 5: that trauma bond statistic where it's like if you're nice

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Speaker 5: and then mean to a dog, it's like two hundred

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Speaker 5: and fifty three percent more loyal to you, Like, it's

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Speaker 5: just very very uh innate in our DNA.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all susceptible. This could happen to all of us.

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Speaker 1: We all the time talk about how we think we're

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Speaker 1: going to be like because we know someone is potentially

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Speaker 1: like a narcissist or like having antisocial tendencies or whatever,

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Speaker 1: that we won't be vulnerable to their tactics. But then

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Speaker 1: at the end of it, we're like, fuck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, because it just works.

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Speaker 1: It just works, because it's that alternating the high and

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Speaker 1: the crash and the high and.

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Speaker 2: The animals at the end of the day. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's really unfortunate that. I mean, I've been

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Speaker 3: through it multiple times now, so I realize from my

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Speaker 3: own experience how hard it is. You sort of think

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Speaker 3: if it happens as you want, it's never going to

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Speaker 3: happen again. But that's why I told the story in

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Speaker 3: as much detail as I did about my situation with Matthew,

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Speaker 3: because even on the other side of that, I came

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Speaker 3: out of that aware. You know, somebody who known him

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Speaker 3: for a long time said, well, he's a textbook sociopath,

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Speaker 3: And so I had done all this research on cinciopathy

397
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Speaker 3: and understood that people like that exhist and I think

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Speaker 3: I didn't think about it that much. I you know, again,

399
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Speaker 3: I was busy with the restaurant. I was preoccupied. I

400
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 3: was running the business on my own. And you should

401
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 3: have this feeling like, well, it could never happen again, right,

402
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 3: But it's the opposite. Whatever it was that made you well,

403
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,640
Speaker 3: woles of that in the first place is still there,

404
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 3: and you're it's more likely for to happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Another parallel between you and my mom making people up

407
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Speaker 1: on email invented persona's emailing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he did that.

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Speaker 1: Your responses in the g chat were so interesting because

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Speaker 1: you kind of know he's making this up, but like.

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Speaker 5: It's a man named well, it's a it's a man

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Speaker 5: named Will correct. Is this assistant, Yes, and so you're

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Speaker 5: emailing with him as as his assistant, But you're like,

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Speaker 5: you're the fucking same person.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I know there's time.

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Speaker 3: I know there's this time where I'm like, you know,

417
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Speaker 3: I'm like, fuck you, you should go blow each other.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm so angry at I'm saying all this crass stuff.

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Speaker 3: And I also found that fascinating about my own situation.

420
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Speaker 3: Is that I'm calling him out on it, but then

421
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Speaker 3: also just kind of going along with it at the

422
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Speaker 3: same time. But by that time, again he could get

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Speaker 3: away with anything and there was nothing to call him

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Speaker 3: out on because he had framed the whole thing as

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Speaker 3: if he was deliberately putting me through this test, so

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Speaker 3: that like gave him an out for absolutely everything.

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Speaker 1: Bro the test thing, I cannot Yeah, y'all, if anyone

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Speaker 1: says they're testing you, run.

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Speaker 5: And I also hate when people are like and he

430
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Speaker 5: did this to you so often, and it made me

431
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Speaker 5: physically ill because I hate the feeling when he'd be like,

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Speaker 5: I heard, I heard you did something bad.

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Speaker 2: You want to tell me about it, and you're like, oh.

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Speaker 4: My god, yeah, yeah. I mean I still have that.

435
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Speaker 3: I still get panicked anytime I think I've done something

436
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Speaker 3: wrong or I'm you know, like constantly feel like, oh

437
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Speaker 3: my god, I'm gonna get in trouble or I've done

438
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,479
Speaker 3: something wrong. It's it's it's a really difficult thing to

439
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Speaker 3: live with. I mean, I constantly was afraid I was

440
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Speaker 3: doing something wrong and I was going to get in trouble,

441
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 3: and he would be angry and I would suffer the

442
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,479
Speaker 3: consequences and you're like walking on eggshells, which is probably

443
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 3: why you know, my heart rate variability is still really

444
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 3: high because even years later, it's like you're walking around

445
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 3: primarily in that heightened state of flight or flight.

446
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: Right, did you have a sense that there were other

447
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 1: worldly figures who were judging, like who was doing the judging?

448
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 4: Well?

449
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 3: He yeah, there's this character of his brother, his sort

450
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 3: of omnipotent brother, which she made it seem as if

451
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 3: his brother was everywhere at all times. So I got

452
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 3: this feeling like I was always being watched. And she

453
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 3: never quite said things explicitly, but there were all these

454
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 3: times where he would talk about how he could only

455
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 3: tell me something in the box, right, as if we

456
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 3: were going into some sort of metaphorical skiff where he

457
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 3: could only tell me the truth when he did something weird,

458
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 3: and then we would be quote in the box, as

459
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 3: he said it.

460
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 2: Like another dimension of privacy or something.

461
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

462
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, like he did some weird sounds thing and now

463
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, we're not being observed by the

464
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 3: higher ups.

465
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: It's kind of like everything everywhere all at once us.

466
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 5: But you know, you like do something weird and random

467
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 5: to like throw off the timeline and then you can

468
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 5: talk really quickly, you know.

469
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 3: But but I haven't seen that movie, but I want

470
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: my guy.

471
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I mean the first time he did it

472
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 5: to my recollection, it did involve like blood.

473
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was like, I gotta, I gotta do something like.

474
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 3: It was a lot of effort for him to do

475
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 3: whatever he had to do so that we could talk

476
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,719
Speaker 3: in the box and he could he could be honest

477
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 3: with me. So he did whatever he did. He was

478
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 3: in the bathroom that he came out. We had some conversation,

479
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 3: and then I went into the bathroom later and it

480
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 3: was like blood in the sink.

481
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 5: So you're like, damn, the box is like kind of

482
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 5: hard to access. Yeah, it takes some blood.

483
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 4: So much creepy stuff like that.

484
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: Speaking of creepy stuff, I think one thing that is

485
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: really important to note is that he would know things

486
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 1: that you now have plausible explanations for, but at the

487
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: time you didn't. Can you tell us about some of that.

488
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 3: He would do stuff like, you know, he would say

489
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 3: so and so is about to call you, so you

490
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 3: might want to like turn to ring around or something

491
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 3: like that. You know, he would say something like so

492
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 3: and so is about to call you.

493
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 4: And then you know later that person would call.

494
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 3: And what I assume now is that because he had

495
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 3: access to my email on his phone and I'm maybe

496
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 3: doing something, he's probably sitting there sees an email come

497
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 3: in from you know whatever, Joe Schmo saying yeah, great,

498
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 3: got your message. I'll call you in five minutes, and

499
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 3: then he would mister Fox would like quickly delete that

500
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: message so I never see it. The person calls it

501
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 3: five minutes, but he was able to say so, and

502
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 3: so I was going to call you a five minutes.

503
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

504
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 3: Like, I can figure out lawsible explanations for a lot

505
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: of that stuff that he did. Now, some of it

506
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 3: I can't necessarily, but a lot of it I could. Yeah.

507
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: At the time, he seems to have this like psychic ability,

508
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: which just lends credibility to this persona that he's yeah, presenting.

509
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and every you know.

510
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 3: Again, towards the end, it's like he had an excuse

511
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 3: for everything. So even his getting fatter and fatter, he

512
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 3: was like, you're supposed to hate me. You're supposed to

513
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: hate me. I was supposed to be an asshole to you,

514
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 3: and you're supposed to be disgusted by me, and you know,

515
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: I'm tired of walking around in this fat.

516
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 4: Meat suit for you. I gotta do this for you.

517
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 4: That was his excuse for being the bild.

518
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 5: Wow.

519
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: Can you talk about the information overload? This is something

520
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: I find endlessly fascinating just because we see it now

521
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: in our world.

522
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 3: I mean, I think you're somebody that is trying to

523
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 3: keep up with politics, it's impossible. There's information overload, and

524
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: so all of these atrocities one thing after another. I mean,

525
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: if you think about like the current administration and whatever,

526
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 3: you think about it like just insane shit happening, and

527
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 3: you know, shattering.

528
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 4: Of norms, and.

529
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: Then the next thing happens, and then the next thing happens,

530
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: and the next scandal and the next thing, and so

531
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: nobody can keep up and you're just exhausted by it all.

532
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 3: And then that allows people to get away with a

533
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: lot of shit they otherwise wouldn't if we had time

534
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: to pay attention to that one thing. And so he

535
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: did a lot of that with me, and just bombarding

536
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 3: me with stuff all the time and keeping me in

537
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: used and exhausted. And you know what I understand now,

538
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: I did in the course at the time is creating

539
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 3: cognitive dissonance is a tool of manipulation because when you're

540
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: in a confused state, you're just way more suggestible, and

541
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: so it's a deliberate tactic.

542
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: I've probably talked about this on here before, and this

543
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: is a very writtenam story. I apology, apologize, high apology, jeez.

544
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: But I was at a gas station once, and stop

545
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: me if you've heard this one more. But I was

546
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: at a gas station once and a man came up

547
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: to me and started shouting at me in another language

548
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: and then took the gas uh nozzle pump pump the

549
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: pump out of my hand that I had paid for

550
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: and put it into his car and was just like

551
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: shouting at me in another language. So yeah, so I froze,

552
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: and I was like oh, because at first I was

553
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: like he made it. He was making it seem like

554
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: I had done something to him, and so I was

555
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: just like stunned in this like confused state. And then

556
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: like it took me like ten seconds of being like hey,

557
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: and and then I like ran off, and then I

558
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: ran inside and told the gas station attendant and he

559
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: drove off without even taking it out of his car.

560
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: So obviously this is like a non tactic, but like

561
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: that thing of like I'm gonna bombard you and confuse

562
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: you and so that you don't do anything to stop me.

563
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: It just felt like it feels like a microcosm of that.

564
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: I guess.

565
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it could be used like if you were,

566
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 3: you know, if somebody started to like drag you into

567
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: an alley late at night to mug you or something.

568
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,239
Speaker 3: I've heard of stories where people have used it in

569
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 3: self defense, you know, to get away from somebody.

570
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: Oh that's smart.

571
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: Instead of having a typical reaction of being like, oh

572
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: my god, no, what are you doing, like doing something

573
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 3: so out of left field and bizarre that the person

574
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: is momentarily stunned.

575
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: Long enough for you to just bold.

576
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: You know.

577
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 4: Anyway, I don't know, it's an interesting tactic.

578
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: Oh we shouldn't practice that, yeah, because I imagine it takes

579
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: repetition to like have that be your instinct.

580
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

581
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 5: I feel like I've gotten myself out of a lot

582
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 5: of pickles by just genuinely having a different brain than

583
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 5: people expect me to be. And I'm like, why are

584
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 5: you wearing that shirt while they're like mugging me or something?

585
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: And then they're like yeah and run away.

586
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 1: Oh I love it.

587
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird.

588
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: I did write down one thing he said in the

589
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: g chat conversation because whether he intended to or not,

590
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: he literally like spelled up this tactic. Yeah, the quote

591
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: is and it's all washed and mixed with misinformation that

592
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: appears as lies and good and bad and up and

593
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: down to make it so there is no on paper choice.

594
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: It forces you to listen to your heart, not your head,

595
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: aka stop thinking because you're so confused, and just do

596
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 1: whatever I tell you.

597
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

598
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was that, like in the middle of one

599
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 3: of his longer rants.

600
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: I think so.

601
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just like, yeah, noticed those lines and

602
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, he's literally telling her

603
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: what he's doing.

604
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that happens very often. They do kind

605
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: of tell you what they're doing. And yeah he did.

606
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 3: He certainly did in that case. And I noticed in

607
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: some of those things too, where he would say read

608
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: this over and over again, you know, which is another

609
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 3: like drill us into your brain, which is just that

610
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: concept that you know, you repeat something long enough you Yeah.

611
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: How did he involve your poor mother?

612
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 4: Oh?

613
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he just got into her head as well.

614
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: And then can then sort of it. I was having

615
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: issues and he was taking care of me and basically

616
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 3: prayed on her as well and got a bunch of

617
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: money out of her, which is really got.

618
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: Wrenching for me.

619
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: Oh what a terrible person.

620
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's really gross. I mean, what's so icky.

621
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 3: On the other side of this is I was reminded

622
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 3: of in that conversation that you had with your mom

623
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: on this podcast where she says, and of course, I

624
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: mean what she went through was so I mean beyond heartbreaking,

625
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 3: but just on the other side of it, that realization.

626
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: I think she said, everything I'd been through, everything that

627
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: I'd lost, had been for someone's sadistic entertainment. Yeah, that

628
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: really hit me because I sort of went through that too,

629
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: just thinking.

630
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 4: Like, oh my god, I've been through.

631
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: This messed up, agonizing hell, and again what your mom

632
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: went through was like way worse. But either way, just

633
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 3: realizing that all of that was you know, getting them

634
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: off sadistically so to speak, And how rough that realize.

635
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think like that idea. Facing that

636
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: idea is one of the things that keeps people on

637
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: the hook so long because the realities, the two realities

638
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: I have to choose between are one where everything's gonna

639
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: be okay, there's an end to this, it's all the

640
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: relief is coming, Like this was not all for nothing,

641
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: there was a purpose or this sadistic fuck just destroyed

642
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: my whole life and I alienated everyone I care about

643
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: for no reason.

644
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 4: Right, and and I'm in this massive hole of debt.

645
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: So I'm like, oh, all these people money, they're either

646
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: the way out that he keeps promising me with his

647
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: hypnotic eyes that it's true and it's coming and it's

648
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 3: just around the corner, or I have to face like

649
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: the most epic humiliation and guilt and shame.

650
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: And of course that ended up being what happened.

651
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was like forcing, like how you forced quite

652
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: a mac. He was like force, like psychosis almost upon

653
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 5: you with just sleep deprivation.

654
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: Why can't they speak deprivation derivation?

655
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 5: Just like I don't know it just it's it's heartbreaking,

656
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 5: and like we said, I think in the first part

657
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 5: of this interview, it's just so unfathomable for non sociopaths

658
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 5: to think sociopathically, so to think of somebody just being

659
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 5: like damn, she crawled out of that while I'm in

660
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 5: a torture again, Like let's.

661
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: See what you were like.

662
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 5: That wouldn't be fun at all, but like people like it.

663
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really it's really hard to imagine. And Mark

664
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 3: Vicente is coming out with a film called The Narcissists Playbook.

665
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: I think it is what the current title is going

666
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: to be. But he's coming out with a documentary about

667
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: narcissists and sociopaths. And I was able to see in

668
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: a dance copy and I'm I just like, I can't

669
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: wait for to come out.

670
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 4: I think it's going to do so much good.

671
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: Because somehow it really lands like it's one thing to

672
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 3: read the Sociopathist, or you see it in fictional movies

673
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: or maybe even here some fucked up stories in the news,

674
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: or watch Bad Again or whatever. But there's something about

675
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: his film that it really kind of lands that, oh,

676
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: my god, these people exist and they're they're out there.

677
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 3: And I think that that's part of how these people

678
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: get away with what they do is because most of us,

679
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: or a lot of us, just can't even imagine that

680
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: that kind of psychology exists.

681
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, or or people on TikTok who think everyone is

682
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: that it's one of the other or the other. Yeah, no,

683
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: but I mean I'm excited to see that we have

684
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: to have morek on. I can't believe we haven't had

685
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: them on yet. Man, I made a list of excuses

686
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: that he made.

687
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to be mad about these. I can already

688
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: tell I'm looking at them.

689
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: I just I mean, I could have I could have

690
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: pulled even way more. But just to illustrate, the goalpost

691
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: moving everything is pretty much John and ready to go.

692
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: Money was moved today. I am waiting on confirmation and

693
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: should get it today or tonight. It's almost over. Prepare

694
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: for your life to change forever. Throughout the week tomorrow

695
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: we will start. It's just like over and over again,

696
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: like you're almost there. You're almost there.

697
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also, what he got me to do a lot,

698
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 3: which I think the term is like future faking. But

699
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: what he did and not like promising all these things,

700
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: is he got me to get into the headspace of

701
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: it by getting me to imagine things and asking me

702
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: to make lists of all the things I will do

703
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: as soon as the money comes in, right, And I

704
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: mean it's sort of like what people do nowadays, and

705
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: the whole like MANIFESTI thing right, and then even the

706
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: whole thing with that that big fancy apartment that he

707
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: said if we were going to buy, and so we're

708
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: like going through the apartment and going through the emotions.

709
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 3: And then even though I'm not like a diamond for

710
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: I don't care about that kind of stuff, but the

711
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: thing where he took me to the top floor of

712
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: Tiffany's and acted like he could buy anything. But yeah,

713
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: he would ask me to make can list, to make

714
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: lists of start to prepare for.

715
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 4: All of this money coming in.

716
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 3: And I'm going to be liberated now to you know,

717
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: grow the business in whatever way I want to. And

718
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 3: you know, I found some of those lists, the ones

719
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: that I had done in my computer, and it was

720
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 3: like phase one, phase two, and you know, I'm going

721
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: to buy the building that the restaurant is in and

722
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm going to do this and I'm going to pay

723
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 3: off of this and I'm going to expand this. And

724
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: it was all about gruwing the business. But I think

725
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 3: that's a tactic, is getting you to get yourself into

726
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: that fantasy headspace. So it's like baking it in.

727
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 5: Yeah you called it, h Ea, happily ever after, Yeah,

728
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 5: happily after hia a little acronym to just go right

729
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 5: two years.

730
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that that's there's like a name

731
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 4: for it.

732
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 3: I know Sarah Edmondson, who also from Mexiam, has talked

733
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 3: about it. It's basically it's like when they have a

734
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 3: word it's like a thought stoper or something.

735
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 4: But it's basically like.

736
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: A terminating cliche.

737
00:34:58,600 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 4: Ye, yeah, exactly.

738
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 3: So like I could be making some kind of an

739
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: argument or something and he'll just say, like aga, and

740
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: it's happily ever after, And so that's going to get

741
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 3: me to like jolt into that space of happily ever

742
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: after whatever it is.

743
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: But yeah, he did a lot of that stuff.

744
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: How did he weaponize concepts from the secret? Like obviously

745
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: he's making you envision your dream world without living in

746
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: the grounded reality of what's going on, But like you

747
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: describe some other ways that he used that, Yeah, like

748
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: can blame me.

749
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 3: When did the Secret come out? I don't know when

750
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: when that happened, probably like.

751
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: Two thousand and three. I was a big fan.

752
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 4: Oh, I guess it wasn't a long time ago. It

753
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 4: was less bad.

754
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: It was more like later on he talked about the

755
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: whole parallel realities exist at the same time, which now

756
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: you hear all the time people on Instagram and whatever

757
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 3: talking about how there's like parallel realities and maybe that's

758
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 3: what that movie is about that I said I should see.

759
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: It is everything everywhere, all around. So now it's a

760
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: much more mainstream. But I realize that's how we explain things.

761
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: When he took me away, was like, we're just sliding

762
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: into this other reality. And another like sort of Cambolish

763
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: thing that he said was like at every moment, I

764
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 3: could go left or I could go right, and then

765
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: the whole trajectory of everything changes, and now I'm on

766
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 3: a different plane of reality and all of those other

767
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: realities exist, so so somehow we could just jump to

768
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 3: another one at any time.

769
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 5: He's like giving you OCD two in a weird way,

770
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 5: you know, Like I don't know. That's a lot to

771
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 5: be processing on a daily basis as a working woman.

772
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, And there's there's in terms of that sort of

773
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 3: secrety step. Something I heard in and I think it

774
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 3: was a podcast interview with one of the Epsteine victims,

775
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: where she talked about him sitting her down and looking

776
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: out the window at this sort of landscape nature out

777
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 3: I don't know, his office or one of his big

778
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: houses or something, and he had her closer eyes and

779
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 3: like put his hands on her shoulders and then so

780
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 3: when you open your eyes, everything's different now and it's

781
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: all going to look magical and are now entering this

782
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: other realm or something. And she said, I opened my eyes,

783
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 3: and she said everything looked brighter and more magical. And

784
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 3: that's just the power of suggestion, like super what, there's

785
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: a real thing. And he would sometimes do stuff like

786
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: that to me too, yeah, you know, and then like yeah,

787
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 3: throw in there that he could make me. He definitely

788
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: weaponized my age and the fact that that's something that

789
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 3: most women are very vulnerable to or you know, just

790
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 3: aging and getting older, and as if he would be

791
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: able to prevent me from aging.

792
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, like just all that shit.

793
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, like every possible insecurity and way that he could

794
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 3: get in.

795
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 5: And write the promise kind of seemed like you would

796
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 5: be forever twenty five, your dog would be with you forever. Yeah,

797
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 5: And then he also seemed to weave in that he

798
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 5: would just fuck off and disappear, which was like a

799
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 5: good dream, yeah exactly, I know.

800
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was smooth with that.

801
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I think he figured like I think he

802
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 3: knew I mean again, because I wasn't in love with him.

803
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: He had to have known that I didn't want to

804
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 3: be with him. So therefore in the fantasy had to

805
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 3: be that all about me being able to grow my

806
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: business and do all this stuff with independence, and he's

807
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 3: kind of out of the picture.

808
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

809
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: Well, I can't believe we've already talked for this long. Okay,

810
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: I know you've had a little Yeah, so the restaurant

811
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: closed and you didn't even know about it at first?

812
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: What went through your mind?

813
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 4: That was the hardest chapter to write.

814
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 3: And I don't remember, like I remember the moment I

815
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: found out and absolute sort of panic and fear. And

816
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: then it's almost as if my brain shut off. And

817
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: the next memory I have is because he sent me

818
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 3: to Florida. And the next memory I have is being

819
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 3: back in New York and walk I do remember walking

820
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: in for the first time when it had closed, and

821
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: I think that's just the you know that, that's like

822
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 3: what happens psychologically, is we dissociate and forget. But somehow

823
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 3: I got myself on an airplane back from Florida, to

824
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 3: New York and then you know, again I don't remember

825
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: where did I go, which apartment was it at that time?

826
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: And then and then I remember walking into the restaurant.

827
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 3: But that was absolutely devastating. At that point, my options

828
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: were to get the restaurant back open, which felt like

829
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: this cow in the world am I going to get

830
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 3: this done? Or like the only other option was I

831
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: that I would have to like, I would have to

832
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 3: like kill myself because what else would I do?

833
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 4: You know?

834
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that that was the worst part of it.

835
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: That was way worse than any of the peoping sex

836
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: stuff for anything else. That was the worst part when

837
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 3: that restaurant was closed, and that fear of you know,

838
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 3: what if I can't get it back open and what

839
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: if this is gone?

840
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: I that's your dream, that's your life's work.

841
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

842
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: Through all of this, what he was dangling to you

843
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: was the promise that you would be able to achieve

844
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: your dreams.

845
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and just yeah. I mean, as we enter

846
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 5: this kind of third act of the story, it's like,

847
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 5: not only has the isolated you common tactic, but another

848
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 5: common tactic that I didn't really think about but I've

849
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 5: been researching, is just taking people out of their environment,

850
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 5: and he took you away from your apartment and your

851
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 5: home and your safe space, and he just starts moving

852
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 5: you around the freaking world. Like yeah, Carmen san Diego,

853
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 5: You're bouncing around, and I cannot fathom how untethered you

854
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 5: must have felt.

855
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: How it's just it's terrifying.

856
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 3: Even right now, I get really upset by I mean,

857
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 3: it's not like I don't travel anywhere these days, but

858
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: even just recently, somebody wanted somebody wanted me to, you know,

859
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 3: like change some appointments and go to this thing that

860
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: i'd have to take any track to just for the day.

861
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 3: And I got so upset just the idea of it.

862
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 3: For anybody else, it would be like, why is that

863
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 3: such a big deal if he cares and you go,

864
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 3: or you don't there so you got to change some appointments,

865
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 3: Like well, it's a big deal. It's just a one

866
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: day trip. But I got really upset by it because

867
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: it just reminded me of being back in that place

868
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 3: where at any time, you know, I mean, he did

869
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 3: this to me all the time, like a total change

870
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: of plan. I mean the way he made me pack

871
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 3: up that apartment and then I had to unpack it

872
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: and then pack it all again and then unpack it,

873
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 3: and like I never knew where I was going to

874
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: be and for how long?

875
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 4: And then you'd have me fly here and go there.

876
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: And it's probably no wonder that I get crazy about traveling.

877
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: Totally makes sense. Yeah, again, just recap for someone who

878
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: maybe doesn't know the story. Like this whole time, you

879
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: are essentially like using your contacts to borrow money to

880
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: take money out of the business. You're like yelling at

881
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: him and saying you don't want to do it, and

882
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: like begging him to not make you do it. But

883
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: it's just like over and over again, these like transfers,

884
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: these transfers, these transfers. How did the arrest finally happen?

885
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: What led to the arrest?

886
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 3: Well, I mean what's strange is that the money that

887
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 3: I got from investors, what ended up happening is that

888
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: I was able to reopen the restaurant, right, which you know,

889
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: I should be proud of myself for that.

890
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 5: I don't know.

891
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 4: That was quite good.

892
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: That was amazing.

893
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: Actually, I was able to.

894
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: Get the restaurant back open, and you know, that's that's

895
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 3: probably a really hard part for people to read in

896
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,479
Speaker 3: the story, because then, of course, you know, he takes

897
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: me away again. But what's weird is that what I

898
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 3: was prosecuted for was mostly the money that I got

899
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: from investors, which the vast majority of it it went

900
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: to reopen the restaurant. It went to pay the back

901
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 3: rents and vendors and employees and all that stuff. So

902
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: it didn't really make sense that I was being charged

903
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 3: for defrauding investors because that money went into the reopened

904
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: the restaurant. It's just that he then took me away

905
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: again and I disappeared right on the other side of this.

906
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: How do you.

907
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: Explain this insanely complicated, messed up situation, you know, to

908
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 3: a prosecutor. And I still naively thought that once they

909
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: started link at it, they'd see that he's clearly a

910
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: criminal con artist and I lost everything, and so why

911
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 3: would they continue charging me as aggressively as they did.

912
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 3: But what ended up happening is it took me away

913
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 3: and we were driving across the country and that's when

914
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 3: he gave me that sort of story about parallel realities.

915
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 3: But by then I was completely I mean, the association

916
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 3: was poor and poor at that point, Like I really

917
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 3: was kind of behaving as a robotic child in a way.

918
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: And there's so much that I don't remember from that trip,

919
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 3: but he just sort of convinced me that, yeah, like

920
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,479
Speaker 3: we're in like a parallel reality and you know, you'll

921
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: get it all back, it'll all be fine. And on

922
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 3: this insane road trip from hell all over the country,

923
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: at one point we end up in digon Borge, Tennessee,

924
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: which is among the stranger towns can even possibly imagine.

925
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: It sounds sounds so crazy.

926
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a strange place.

927
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 3: And one of the things I'll never know for sure

928
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 3: is I really feel like he got us arrested on purpose,

929
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 3: and we're going to be arrested, and for some reason,

930
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 3: maybe he thought that the way it was going to

931
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: play out would be different. I don't I don't really know,

932
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: But anyway, we were arrested, and then I was extracited

933
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 3: back to New York and handcuffs and in various jails

934
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 3: in first and Tennessee Dale in that small town, and then.

935
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 4: Being extradited to writers in New York. Wise time writers too.

936
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: He deleted all of your emails, your email exchanges, except

937
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: for one in which he tries to pin it all

938
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: on you.

939
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, so it makes sense.

940
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: To me that he thinks that that would be a

941
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: useful move for him, because he didn't think about booking

942
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: g chat. Also, you do talk about this in the book,

943
00:44:58,080 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: and we've talked about this here as well. Of course,

944
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: can had yet to enter the mainstream as a concept,

945
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: and it still has yet to truly like penetrate the

946
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: legal system in America, which sucks. Yeah, but can you

947
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: just briefly describe your jail experience and like sort of

948
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: the deprogramming that happened over time.

949
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was never like a wake up moment, you know,

950
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 3: And of course I'm also in the middle of those

951
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 3: very strange experience of being arrested and in jail, and

952
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 3: you no, I've been for the most part, was such

953
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: a one of those people that never got in trouble.

954
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 3: So the idea that I would be in jail was

955
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: just and that's sort of traumatic in its own way.

956
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 3: So there's never like a wake up moment. It was

957
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 3: just this gradual, like layers of realizing that, oh my god, nightmare,

958
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 3: like the worst, the worst, worst, worst case scenario is

959
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 3: now coming true, and now this is the reality that

960
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 3: I have to face, and I don't know how to

961
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: explain it, and what we talked about before where that

962
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 3: weird paradox of there being something comforting about him being

963
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 3: around because he's the only one that knows what he's

964
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: putting me through, so he's the only one who can

965
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,919
Speaker 3: get me out. And now all of a sudden, it's

966
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 3: just me and I'm having to face everybody alone, and

967
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: I don't know how to explain it. I don't know

968
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 3: what to say. I mean, it was absolutely brutal, that

969
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 3: part of it. And then yeah, I was at Wrikers

970
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 3: for I think about a week, and then I got

971
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 3: out on bail. But I just naively thought that surely

972
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 3: the prosecutor, once they look into this, will realize that

973
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 3: they might not understand what happened. But like, I'm a

974
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 3: good person. I've always been a law abiding, good person.

975
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 3: I never intended to do anything wrong. And I lost

976
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 3: as much as other people lost money and their jobs

977
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 3: and stuff, and that was all heartbreaking and I feel responsible.

978
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 4: And all the shame for all of that happening.

979
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 3: But at the same time, logically I lost more than

980
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 3: everybody and it's not like I was arrested with bags

981
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: of other people's money trying to board a playing in Mexico. Right.

982
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 4: I was just sitting there in this.

983
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 3: Hotel in Tennessee. And the detective who arrested me, who

984
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 3: I write about a lot in the book. He's such

985
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 3: a great character. He'd be such a great character like

986
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 3: in a film.

987
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 4: His name was Ray.

988
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 3: Brown, and he knew like what he saw, he saw

989
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 3: mister Fox, he saw me, and he very quickly understood, Okay,

990
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 3: I get what's going on here. This is a certain

991
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 3: type of a con artist, which she'd probably encountered in

992
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: his long career of dealing with messed up people as

993
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 3: as a detector. And she's clearly, you know, the zoned out,

994
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,959
Speaker 3: traumatized victim of his. So he got it, he really

995
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 3: understood it. But the prosecutor was a totally different story.

996
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 3: And so I ended up being prosecuted and then getting

997
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: sentenced to go back to write there for four months.

998
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 5: I mean, I think we always talk on the show

999
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 5: about like when did your shelf break or when did

1000
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 5: you like really realize this was a con. But it

1001
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 5: was one of the first things in the book, and

1002
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 5: it just struck me as like damn, Like even when

1003
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 5: you were in the first jail in Tennessee. You're like,

1004
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 5: maybe these are all actors, Like they're really good actors.

1005
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 5: They're like you're in such a state of cognitive despair

1006
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 5: that you're like, is this just a set and like

1007
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 5: my final test?

1008
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's just wild that.

1009
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 5: Your brain is still trying to cling on to some

1010
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 5: sort of like this must be real, this must be real,

1011
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 5: this must be real. And then that process of like

1012
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 5: slowly being like, God, it's it's not I know, I.

1013
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 4: Know, I mean, that's exactly what. How is this?

1014
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: Maybe some people are going to show up and whisk

1015
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 3: me out of here and it's all going to be okay.

1016
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: But then that like little lifeline that I'm trying to

1017
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 3: hang onto is like it's thinner and thinner and thinner,

1018
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 3: and then eventually, you know, eventually I just have to

1019
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 3: accept the actual reality of what had happened.

1020
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: I was very upset to find that he is not

1021
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: in jail and wasn't really for very long.

1022
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 3: No, he got out before because he stayed in jail,

1023
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 3: he was never bailed out. So even though I got

1024
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 3: a four month sentence, he was only spends to AYR

1025
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 3: and he'd already completed that, so he was out and

1026
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: free before I had to go back in, and so

1027
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 3: I'm going in to be locked up while he's out

1028
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 3: bringing and I'm I am now having to go in

1029
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 3: for four months. But the reality is that that four

1030
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 3: months wasn't really the worst punishment. The worst punishment was

1031
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 3: just the overall destruction of everything. Like I would go

1032
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 3: to jail for whatever if you told me I could

1033
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 3: have it all back and just repair everything and rebuild

1034
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 3: the restaurant and whatever.

1035
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 4: Like the jail in comparison, no big deal.

1036
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 3: But it was having to come out the other on

1037
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 3: the other side of the whole thing, and you know,

1038
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: feeling like because of course I'm I'm not a sis here,

1039
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 3: Like I feel like it's all my fault, and I

1040
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 3: feel like all this destruction and all the pain that

1041
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 3: was caused to other people is my fault because I

1042
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 3: let this monster in my life, but it happened through me,

1043
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 3: and it.

1044
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 4: Feels like it's my fault.

1045
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, the whole story doesn't

1046
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 3: even make sense to people, so they don't understand what happened.

1047
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 4: And so, yeah, it's been a lot on the other

1048
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 4: side of it.

1049
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: So what has your rebuilding process looked like I already

1050
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: wanted to write another book, but the story keeps getting

1051
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: more and more interesting because I moved back here to reopen,

1052
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: and yeah, I was brought back here to reopen, and

1053
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 1: then there was all this stuff that was misleading.

1054
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: About it, and then they didn't pay me, and then

1055
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 3: they put me in a comprolizing situation, and then they

1056
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 3: demanded that I do X y Z that I never

1057
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 3: said I would do, and then friends like, okay, then

1058
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 3: there's no.

1059
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 4: Restaurant and screw you. You're on your own. And by

1060
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 4: the way, now you're in waiting more debt.

1061
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1062
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 4: So yeah, the story continues.

1063
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: And then in the middle of all this, publishing my memoir,

1064
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 3: which I had thought I was going to be publishing

1065
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 3: at the same time as a big restaurant relaunching and reopening,

1066
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: and like it was going to be this epic comeback.

1067
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: You know, it can still happen, but I'm I'm in

1068
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 3: the thick of it right now, and so it's been

1069
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: really strange. I'm happy that the book is out, and

1070
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 3: I'm happy to talk about it and I'm happy to

1071
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 3: promote it, but I also I chose the option of

1072
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 3: publishing it independently, which is basically like self publishing, because

1073
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 3: it was so important to me to maintain control.

1074
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 4: Of the story.

1075
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 3: And you know, one of the things we didn't talk about,

1076
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: which is fine because I've talked about it so much

1077
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 3: on other podcasts that I feel like I'm like, I

1078
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 3: sound like I'm a whiny complainer and for me. But

1079
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: the Netflix show Bad Vegan like totally turned my story

1080
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: around and did it in this very messed up way

1081
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 3: where some people see it to what it was some

1082
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 3: people didn't. But they also were supposed to put into

1083
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: that show that I was only paid an amount of

1084
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 3: money that was equal to what my employees were owned,

1085
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 3: because that's what I wanted, and I so badly wanted

1086
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 3: my employees to be repaid. So I got seventy five grand.

1087
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 3: All of that went to repay my employees. They were

1088
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 3: made whole. I got nothing more but the Fox who

1089
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 3: made that show and manipulated it so that all these

1090
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 3: people watch it and think that like there's a twisty ending,

1091
00:51:58,120 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 3: and I was in on it all along, and I'm

1092
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 3: like a criminal, like Anadeli con artist myself.

1093
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 5: God, I watched that show and came away thinking you

1094
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 5: were awesome and great.

1095
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: So I don't know what.

1096
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 3: No, I appreciate that, but that's because that's because of

1097
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 3: the lens that you're right, which you're watching it, right,

1098
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 3: I'm telling you an enormous amount of people and not

1099
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 3: like don't came away thinking, oh, yeah, that's the twisty

1100
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: ending she's laughing with him on the phone at the

1101
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: end of the show. She was, and they moved my

1102
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 3: words around to change what I said to him, right,

1103
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 3: And and those people who did that made millions of

1104
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 3: dollars from and I know that for a fact because

1105
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 3: I know the numbers.

1106
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:36,720
Speaker 4: I know what they made.

1107
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 3: And that's and I And now it's like I'm trying

1108
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 3: to you know, I'm trying to like keep my shit together,

1109
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 3: and I have to pay my rent on credit cards

1110
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 3: and I'm in debt, and so it's it's hard to

1111
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 3: talk about because I don't want to wallow in that

1112
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 3: victim energy. Like it's just a tough thing to navigate

1113
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 3: because it's hard not to be angry or to want

1114
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: to explain that and then at the same time not

1115
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 3: want to, you know, to kind of want to move

1116
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 3: past that and just put the past in the past

1117
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 3: and focus on myself.

1118
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's tough.

1119
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: You got to talk to my mom because she did

1120
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 1: have an experience. It wasn't as big of a show

1121
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: as Bad Vegan, but she did have an experience with

1122
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: a TV show that painted her as someone who's just

1123
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: like doing it because she wanted to be with this

1124
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: guy and all that, you know.

1125
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 4: Like, oh my god, that's so.

1126
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 3: I mean after hearing that podcast just this morning, I

1127
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 3: listening to the one you did with your mom. That

1128
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 3: was heartbreaking to listen to, and yeah, it's sickening. And

1129
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 3: then I remember, I think Steve Pawson told me that.

1130
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 3: I think we said that that's why you want to

1131
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 3: ask to be in touch.

1132
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: That's why she got her PhD and did her dissertation

1133
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: on the Traumatic impact of media misrepresentation, I think is

1134
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: what it's. Yes, yeah, two things come up for me.

1135
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 5: Number one, how dangerous it is to be a beautiful

1136
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 5: woman who is doing something super good in the world

1137
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 5: because people want to hate and they want to be

1138
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 5: like the vegan ordered pizza and cheese.

1139
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: And loon blah blah blah blah blah. So I stand

1140
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 2: with that.

1141
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 5: And the number two, like, while acknowledging the very deep

1142
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 5: despair that is the current moment. Like this book and

1143
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 5: this story is the perfect concoction to help so many

1144
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 5: people because there's just no if ans and butts around it.

1145
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 5: You are smart, period, You are like a good person, period,

1146
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 5: and this horrifying thing happened to you that I'm like,

1147
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 5: this is going to be a staple of helping so

1148
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 5: many people get out truly totally.

1149
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 3: I mean, it means so much to me when people

1150
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 3: are reading my book and they dm me that they

1151
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,479
Speaker 3: feel less alone, they feel less stupid, or that it's

1152
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 3: really helped them understand their own situation. The reader that

1153
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 3: will I hope be the most impacted if they could

1154
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: get in their hands, is I just wish a lot

1155
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 3: of young people would read it, you know, maybe young

1156
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,399
Speaker 3: women who would identify with some of the things that

1157
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 3: you know, characterize my early life, or I would hope

1158
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 3: that it would get read by young people who haven't

1159
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 3: been through something like this, so that it really sinks

1160
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 3: in and if they encounter somebody like this, they'll think, huh,

1161
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 3: this kind of reminds me of that story and then go,

1162
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 3: now I have this awareness to look for red flags

1163
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 3: and just avoid the situation because.

1164
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know.

1165
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 3: I would think that if I had read a story

1166
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 3: like mine, that when he started throwing some of these

1167
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 3: things at me, I might have thought, yeah, this kind

1168
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 3: of sounds like yeah, yeah, that means a lot to

1169
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: me that it could help people and also help all

1170
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 3: the psychologists to study this kind of stuff.

1171
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 4: That's like, look, here's all of his words.

1172
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: Here's not all of it, but here's a lot of

1173
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 3: his words and are back and forth, and I really

1174
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 3: lay out as much as I could his tactics.

1175
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is so amazing, and so to read his

1176
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: exact words, I mean, the whole time, I'm just like

1177
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: wanting to throw a book across the room because I'm like,

1178
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: fuck this guy, you know, but he's like he is gaslighting,

1179
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: he is manipulating, he is doing everything, and it's all

1180
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: right there. And I do think that's really useful because

1181
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: we hear these stories a lot of the time, and

1182
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: we don't get to see what they're actually literally saying

1183
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: in real time so often. So I think it's yeah,

1184
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: really kind of a treasure trove.

1185
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: And that's part of why I published it, you know,

1186
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: independently self publishes, because I just couldn't bear to have

1187
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 3: a publisher control of my story. After what happened with

1188
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 3: Bad Vegan Butt Show on Netflix, I couldn't bear to

1189
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 3: have somebody take control of the story and manipulate it

1190
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 3: or control it totally.

1191
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 1: If you had to look for a gem of positivity

1192
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: or like useful lessons and all of the shit that

1193
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: you waded through, I mean, what would those be?

1194
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 3: You know? In my story? Like I think I say

1195
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 3: this in the very beginning. You know, nobody died. What

1196
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 3: was lost is theoretically recoverable. I thought I was in

1197
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 3: the process of recovering it and being able to get the.

1198
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 4: Restaurant in the business and the brand back. That still

1199
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 4: could happen.

1200
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 3: I just wouldn't need the right partnership and the right people, because,

1201
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 3: as you imagine, I am left with a lot of

1202
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 3: trust issues. I think somehow it broke me open in

1203
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 3: a way that if I imagine if I had just gone

1204
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 3: forth and unlucky dock blew up, I probably would have

1205
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 3: added some kind of a crash.

1206
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1207
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: It's kind of like almost like people go through life

1208
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 3: and end up having some kind of a crisis that

1209
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 3: brings you to a place where you're forced to do

1210
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 3: a lot of self reflection and come to terms with

1211
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 3: healing all your family sounds calling, but healing all your

1212
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 3: childhood and really examining it all and becoming an extremely

1213
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 3: self aware person. And weirdly enough, you know, mister Fox

1214
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 3: kept referring to when you wake up, this will all

1215
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 3: make sense, or when you wake up, you don't care

1216
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 3: about what people think anymore when you wake up. And

1217
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 3: what's weird is I feel like I've had id of

1218
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 3: awaken right.

1219
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: Just not in the way that you were expecting.

1220
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it would have been a lot nicer to you know,

1221
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 3: maybe have just gotten really overworked and then done like

1222
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 3: the eat Prey Love version of it, you know, go

1223
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 3: to Bali and meditate for love.

1224
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, not be bombarded.

1225
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 3: That would have been a much nicer awakening and the

1226
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 3: way that it happened. But speaking of Elizabeth Gilbert, I,

1227
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 3: you know, I'm fascinated by I've listened to all her

1228
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 3: podcasts learning her new book. And it's funny because she

1229
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 3: talks about Earth School and you know, our souls coming

1230
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 3: here to learn lessons, and I think about that, and

1231
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 3: I'm like, and then and then my head starts to

1232
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 3: go into a tripping place because you know it then

1233
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 3: would mean that some of the things that you said

1234
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 3: were potentially true, but he knows.

1235
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:55,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1236
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 5: I think we talked on an episode we did with Anne,

1237
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 5: one of our former guests, where she was just like

1238
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 5: and now I can't think about any of that that

1239
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 5: she was like and now I just have to live

1240
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 5: in the boring none of that. But yeah, I'm prone

1241
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 5: to thinking that way as well.

1242
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean colts will weaponize your you know,

1243
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 6: if you have an inclination towards I don't know, any

1244
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 6: kind of a spiritual spirituality or spiritual life, they'll weaponize that.

1245
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 3: But then it becomes hard to figure out wearing land

1246
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 3: on the other side of it, because so much of

1247
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 3: that now is associated with them and the things that

1248
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: they've said, and so you know, you want to reject

1249
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 3: it completely. It's kind of like somebody who might have

1250
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 3: been abused in a church or whatever. They're going to

1251
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: completely reject that religion and they don't want anything.

1252
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 4: To do with it.

1253
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 3: So it's a similar thing if somebody's kind of weaponized spirituality. Now,

1254
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 3: how didn't get back to it in a place where

1255
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 3: you feel comfortable?

1256
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.

1257
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is true that when we hit a

1258
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: rock bottom. It can be the doorway into absolutely a

1259
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: new level of self awareness and new level of empathy

1260
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: and connection with other people that we wouldn't have maybe

1261
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: accessed before. But it doesn't mean it was worth it.

1262
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 5: But a gorgeous a gorgeous book that will change lives.

1263
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Tell us the name again and where

1264
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: they can find it.

1265
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 3: The name of the book is The Girl with the

1266
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 3: Duck Tattoo, and it is because of the way I published.

1267
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 3: It's not like it's not like you can find it

1268
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 3: in every bookstore. But you can get a signed copy

1269
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 3: from me, which is the amazing option. You can also

1270
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 3: get it directly from the printer, which is another good

1271
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: option that bypasses Amazon and is a better I'm just

1272
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 3: being like full disclosure, but a much better margin for me.

1273
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 3: Its the same price as Amazon. And you can also

1274
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:44,959
Speaker 3: just get it from Amazon, and then you can also

1275
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 3: get the kindle version on Amazon, which is the most

1276
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 3: affordable way to get it. And all of those links

1277
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 3: are I made a website for the book, just the

1278
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 3: Girl with the Duck Tattoo dot com that has all

1279
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 3: of those links, and also I put by chapter photos.

1280
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 3: There's tons of photos that you can look at that

1281
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 3: are listed by chapter.

1282
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to go look at those me too.

1283
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 3: My Instagram is where I'm communicate with people most and

1284
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 3: that's just my full name at Instagram. I'm pretty easy

1285
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 3: to find that and all those links are on Instagram.

1286
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: Too, amazing. Thank you so much for talking to us

1287
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: for so long.

1288
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah really, yeah.

1289
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 4: No, I'm I mean, I'm happy to do it, and

1290
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 4: this is fine. I did a podcast few weeks ago

1291
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 4: that was six hours.

1292
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 5: So that's honestly how long I wanted to know.

1293
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, well this is very different because you

1294
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 3: guys read the book and I can't tell you how

1295
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 3: much I appreciate that. It's a much much richer conversation

1296
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 3: because of that, and also, you know, your personal experiences

1297
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 3: means that you understand it and it's a much richer discussion.

1298
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: Oh hey, well I loved it. Everybody, go buy the book.

1299
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Thank you Sarma for that incredible conversation.

1300
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so last week, Lola, you asked me if I

1301
01:01:58,840 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 2: would join this cults.

1302
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: I did, and you would, but you can't because you

1303
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: don't have enough money. I can't afford that, and I

1304
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: also do not have enough money otherwise I'd be on it.

1305
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 5: I did think that there was an interesting takeaway, which

1306
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 5: is that people have this misconception that somebody can be

1307
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 5: so smart that this would never happen to them.

1308
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 4: Right.

1309
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: And she went to Wharton, she worked on Wall Street.

1310
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: If you read her book, she was one of the

1311
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: most effective people at like every job she did.

1312
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 5: Basically working at all the big banks. She's running up

1313
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 5: the ranks like she's a genius.

1314
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: And creates this amazing restaurant Like yeah, truly, and we

1315
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: see it all the time. So many of our guests

1316
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: are so highly educated, so thoughtful, so just incredibly intelligent.

1317
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you get the right person who

1318
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: knows the right tactics to break down your defenses, to

1319
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: break down your critical thinking, yep, to overwhelm your time,

1320
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: to confuse you, you know, like, and.

1321
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 5: Then opt to ikers you go, oh man, Yeah, it's

1322
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 5: scary stuff.

1323
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 2: It really is. But I am so glad that that

1324
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 2: chapter of her life is over.

1325
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 4: Me too.

1326
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 2: I can't wait to be eating her ice cream someday.

1327
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: I know, if there are any like money people listening

1328
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 1: who are not scammers, please invest in her new restaurant.

1329
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 5: I want to eat there. Read the book and maybe

1330
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 5: let's do it in La.

1331
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because I can't find in New York. I

1332
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: can't afford that right now. No, we can't, We can't

1333
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: go there. As al is, thank you so much for

1334
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 1: listening to another week of Trust Me. Make sure to

1335
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: leave us a review we love a review with five

1336
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: stars stars.

1337
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 5: And remember to follow your gut, watch out for radflax.

1338
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me.

1339
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: Bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted by

1340
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: me Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer

1341
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: is Gee Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1342
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 5: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberla, and our guest booker

1343
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 5: is Patrick Kottner.

1344
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1345
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 5: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark

1346
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 5: and Danielle Kramer.

1347
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1348
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1349
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 5: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1350
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 5: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1351
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1352
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts,