Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at
Speaker 1: Bloomberg and.
Speaker 2: I'm Aldana Hire, a cross asset reporter with Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: And this week on the show, Well, the recent failure
Speaker 1: of some regional banks has turned investors' attention to the
Speaker 1: health of the credit markets and the possibility of a
Speaker 1: so called credit crunch in which the availability of debt
Speaker 1: financing becomes drastically reduced. So what kind of shape are
Speaker 1: credit markets in right now and what can we expect
Speaker 1: for the rest of the year. We'll get into it
Speaker 1: with a veteran portfolio manager in the fixed income markets.
Speaker 1: But first though, Donna, I have to ask, have you
Speaker 1: done all your Mother's Day shopping?
Speaker 2: I haven't bought anything for anybody?
Speaker 1: Nothing for not anybody mom.
Speaker 2: Not for my mom, not for my my husband's mom,
Speaker 2: not for his grandma.
Speaker 1: Nothing, nothing. A terrible daughter.
Speaker 2: I'll just buy flowers on the day off. I guess, okay,
Speaker 2: But we are flying to Florida to see my husband's grandma.
Speaker 2: She's ninety nine. Ohs, she's turning one hundred in August.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So that's the gift. Really, you know, Okay, have you
Speaker 2: done your shopping?
Speaker 1: I've got a reservation for my wife.
Speaker 2: That sounds nice that you're making me feel bad. You're
Speaker 2: making me feel a little bad.
Speaker 1: Of course I waited till last week and there's no
Speaker 1: reservations left, so I have a three thirty.
Speaker 2: No, you don't the worst time. It's like not brunch,
Speaker 2: but also not dinner.
Speaker 1: What is it? I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: You're lucky. The restaurant is even I'm.
Speaker 1: Trying to convince her. It's the new hip thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everyone's brunching it.
Speaker 2: It's early early bird, yeah, early the earliest, but late.
Speaker 1: It's a late night brunch.
Speaker 2: Nice. Nice, that's perfect. Anyway, our guest is waiting for us.
Speaker 2: I do want to bring her, and I'm so excited
Speaker 2: to have her on. I've heard her speak so many times.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy she could join us for the podcast.
Speaker 2: It's Elaine Stokes, executive vice president and portfolio manager and
Speaker 2: co head of the Full Discretion team at Loomis Sales. Elaine,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Like I mentioned, I've been to a bunch of you
Speaker 2: guys's events I've heard you over the last couple of
Speaker 2: years talk about your many different outlooks, but maybe we
Speaker 2: can just start with you just giving us a quick
Speaker 2: overview of who you are and what your role entails.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I am obviously you mentioned my name, Elaine Stokes.
Speaker 4: I've been working at Loomis for thirty five years this week.
Speaker 4: I am part of what we call the full Discretion Team.
Speaker 4: What we manage is multisector portfolios. We take a long
Speaker 4: term opportunistic approach, so active management, which.
Speaker 3: Has been a little out of othe as of late.
Speaker 4: But I think something that people are are, you know,
Speaker 4: eyes open to again now that we're starting to see
Speaker 4: some value in the market.
Speaker 1: You know, Elaine, I know you keep close eye on
Speaker 1: credit markets in your role, and there's been so much
Speaker 1: talk lately after the failure of these regional banks about
Speaker 1: a potential quote unquote credit crunch. So far, I'm not
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of like hard data evidence of it.
Speaker 1: If you look at say, high yield spreads, they seem
Speaker 1: pretty well contained. I know that FED Senior Loan Officer
Speaker 1: survey showed a little bit of an increase in tightening
Speaker 1: of standards, but nothing sort of through the roof. They're
Speaker 1: obviously are pockets of weakness commercial real estate, mortgage backed securities.
Speaker 1: Those spreads are getting pretty wide. But I'm curious how
Speaker 1: you're thinking about sort of the macro conditions for credit
Speaker 1: right now. Is that a real risk of a credit
Speaker 1: crunch where supply of credit gets greatly curtailed because of
Speaker 1: all these issues that we've seen in the banks.
Speaker 4: It seems to us that what has happened and what
Speaker 4: we've really seen out of this banking turmoil, i'll.
Speaker 3: Call it, is that we have seen.
Speaker 4: A proof point that all these moves by the FED
Speaker 4: are finally working.
Speaker 3: But they're working in.
Speaker 4: People's risk appetite going down for things like new technology, crypto,
Speaker 4: even some private equity. But we're not seeing it in
Speaker 4: our day to day life right We're not seeing it
Speaker 4: to the extent that you would expect to be seeing
Speaker 4: it in normal day to day borrowing. What my fear
Speaker 4: is is that if we continue to have equity markets
Speaker 4: telling us that regional banks aren't safe, then regional banks
Speaker 4: and banks in general will then continue to tighten and
Speaker 4: continue to tighten.
Speaker 3: Their standards, and that's going to start to hit those
Speaker 3: small and medium sized businesses. If that happens.
Speaker 4: I think we all have a different view of what
Speaker 4: the recession will look like. Being the week prior to
Speaker 4: Mother's Day, and Regulate is liking to come out and
Speaker 4: give us something on Sundays.
Speaker 3: I was thinking that maybe.
Speaker 4: That would be the regulator's gift to us, is that
Speaker 4: they gave us something that would quiet down this. You know, constant,
Speaker 4: let's take a run at the regional banks and then
Speaker 4: settle down. Take a run at the regional banks and
Speaker 4: settle down, and would get something that would would put
Speaker 4: that potential crisis of confidence that we're all looking at
Speaker 4: and kind of put it to bed once and for all.
Speaker 3: We have strong.
Speaker 4: Banks, and it's a confidence game, and we need to
Speaker 4: do something to swelch that confidence or it is going
Speaker 4: to start to affect the economy.
Speaker 2: So you said in your notes, obviously a lot rides
Speaker 2: on a resolution to the banking issues. How plausible is
Speaker 2: it to actually see something like the universal Deposit insurance
Speaker 2: or how do you actually see things playing out going forward?
Speaker 4: You know, I really think a lot of it rides
Speaker 4: on watching what happens to the equities of these regional banks,
Speaker 4: because that's the only place we're still you know, keeping
Speaker 4: our eye on and watching where that fear is coming.
Speaker 4: If we can get to a steady state, maybe we're
Speaker 4: going to have an orderly merger or two beyond what
Speaker 4: we've already had, then I think we're past it. But
Speaker 4: if we I think the next two weeks are critical,
Speaker 4: and having the negotiations in Washington kind of hanging over
Speaker 4: our head at the same time definitely has the ability
Speaker 4: to make markets.
Speaker 1: Overreact, you know, And obviously it all comes back to
Speaker 1: interest rates and the path for the Fed this year. Elaine.
Speaker 1: We did get CPI data this week, headline number four
Speaker 1: point nine percent, that about one tenth from the previous month.
Speaker 1: Core at five point five percent, also down about a tenth,
Speaker 1: but really not aggressively normalizing the way it did, say
Speaker 1: last summer. What's your big picture view on where the
Speaker 1: Fed and rates markets are headed in general? Given this
Speaker 1: inflation scenario that the worst it seems to be over,
Speaker 1: but we really kind of seem to be plateauing almost
Speaker 1: at some pretty elevated levels. What do you expect for
Speaker 1: the rest of the year as far as rates and
Speaker 1: the Fed?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, because of the short term reasons we already mentioned, right,
Speaker 4: what's what's happening with the regional banks and the debt
Speaker 4: sailing talks. I think the FED will absolutely pause at
Speaker 4: its next meeting.
Speaker 3: But longer term.
Speaker 4: Our view is that there are some big picture secular
Speaker 4: trends that are going to keep inflation elevated, not necessarily
Speaker 4: elevated at five percent, you know, but I think it's
Speaker 4: going to be really really hard to get to target.
Speaker 4: You know, we believe that the FED is going to
Speaker 4: be a little slower to react in cutting rates.
Speaker 3: We think the market's a little bit ahead of itself here.
Speaker 4: The market, I think is pricing in, you know, one
Speaker 4: of those first two short term items going horribly wrong
Speaker 4: and the FED having to come in and really cut.
Speaker 4: We think that, you know, this is what we refer
Speaker 4: to as the four d's. Right, we have demographics we're
Speaker 4: working against us. We have deglobalization working against us. We
Speaker 4: have decarbonization working against us.
Speaker 3: In growing deficits.
Speaker 4: Right, we have those four things that we all you know,
Speaker 4: are familiar with that are all potentially inflationary, and it's
Speaker 4: going to be hard for the FED to kind of take.
Speaker 3: The foot off the pedal completely.
Speaker 4: It just doesn't feel like a strong cutting cycle is
Speaker 4: in our future.
Speaker 2: Can we talk about what the market is expecting, because
Speaker 2: the market is pricing in cuts, you know, as early
Speaker 2: as July, which is like in a couple of weeks basically,
Speaker 2: so like what is behind that thinking there? And then
Speaker 2: almost everybody I talked to is like, that is not
Speaker 2: going to happen. The Fed is not going to be
Speaker 2: cutting in July.
Speaker 4: The only way that really makes sense to me is
Speaker 4: that the market is saying in putting pressure on the
Speaker 4: government to get its act together and come to an
Speaker 4: agreement or to figure out how to make this bank
Speaker 4: situation go away.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: I feel I got some market saying, hey, we're here
Speaker 4: telling you to get your act together, because it doesn't
Speaker 4: make sense given the economic numbers that we're seeing. You know,
Speaker 4: we're still seeing some up, some down, you know, a
Speaker 4: very mixed bag of economic numbers, and still have too
Speaker 4: many good potentials wrong drivers of this economy.
Speaker 3: So that just does not make sense.
Speaker 4: And I just think it's the market using whatever lever
Speaker 4: it has to get the attention of the regulators to
Speaker 4: force the fence hand.
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, you know, Elaine, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: fascinating time to be surveying the fixed income landscape because
Speaker 1: there's some tremendous opportunities in the front end. You know,
Speaker 1: even in a money market phone you can get five
Speaker 1: percent basically yield right now. So I'm curious, what where
Speaker 1: are you seeing value? You know, is is the front
Speaker 1: end the place to be right now with these high
Speaker 1: yields or is it you know, what are you looking
Speaker 1: at is terms as attractive corners of fixed income right now?
Speaker 4: What I love about fixed income is is you kind
Speaker 4: of have to triangulate. Right, it's great. We have over
Speaker 4: five percent in the short end, you know, up from
Speaker 4: under two percent, and for the last several years, any
Speaker 4: of us would look at five percent as wow, that's
Speaker 4: that's an healthy return.
Speaker 3: Let's not forget that inflation is still around five percent.
Speaker 4: If you take more risk, get involved in in high
Speaker 4: yield we're talking about eight and a half to nine
Speaker 4: percent type of yields, so that's really attractive. So the
Speaker 4: yield levels has gotten really interesting. Spreads have also gotten
Speaker 4: much larger than they were a year ago. Right we're
Speaker 4: pretty much almost doubled in spread levels that we're getting
Speaker 4: from our tights, So that means that we're we're getting
Speaker 4: paid a bigger premium to take on some risk. Is
Speaker 4: it enough that it looks like we're getting paid as
Speaker 4: if we're in a downturn or a recession.
Speaker 3: Not quite.
Speaker 4: But the difference right now is that the dollar price
Speaker 4: is lower. We have been living in a market where
Speaker 4: dollar prices for bonds have been well over par for
Speaker 4: very long time, and now we're looking at dollar prices
Speaker 4: that index averages are close to ninety cents on the dollar.
Speaker 4: So not only can you buy that bond at the
Speaker 4: five percent or the eight and a half percent, but
Speaker 4: you also have the potential to go up those ten
Speaker 4: price points if there's any type of positive economic news
Speaker 4: or specific news. So when I look at all three
Speaker 4: together and really think about the technicals in the market,
Speaker 4: and when I talk about the technicals in the market,
Speaker 4: what I'm really referring to is the lack of issuance.
Speaker 4: We've had very very low issuance levels over the last
Speaker 4: few years. Borrowers have gone private and that has made
Speaker 4: a big difference in the markets in the number of
Speaker 4: buyers out there looking for product. So when I consider
Speaker 4: all that together, I think that there's value in this market,
Speaker 4: and it's in the short and yes, but we also
Speaker 4: can go down the risk spectrum a little bit and
Speaker 4: pick up some nice, low dollar priced bonds that have
Speaker 4: the potential to go up in a lot of xcess yield.
Speaker 2: Elaine, we had this very interesting interview with Bill Gross
Speaker 2: earlier this week where he said that he really likes
Speaker 2: one month tea bills because he thinks the debt ceiling issue,
Speaker 2: although it's a risk that it will get resolved. And
Speaker 2: so I'm curious, like if somebody came to you, if
Speaker 2: a client came to you and you know, asked you
Speaker 2: about tea bills, what would you advise them? And this
Speaker 2: is my sort of runabout way of asking you how
Speaker 2: you're managing and thinking about the debt ceiling issue.
Speaker 4: I look at it as a bump in the road.
Speaker 4: We've seen this movie before. Yes, it feels a little
Speaker 4: bit worse. I was just noting that, you know, credit
Speaker 4: DeVault swaps and US credit devult swaps are now wider.
Speaker 3: Than Greece, Brazil, Mexico.
Speaker 4: Like I could go on and on, right, but when
Speaker 4: all is said and done, everybody in that room knows
Speaker 4: they have to come up with some type of agreement.
Speaker 4: The alternative is too bad politically for both sides. Do
Speaker 4: I think it makes sense to be super short. Yes,
Speaker 4: there is value there. But what I would say is,
Speaker 4: let's take advantage of the volatility. The volatility that I
Speaker 4: think we're going to have over the next couple weeks
Speaker 4: is going to be the opportunity. So take advantage of
Speaker 4: that opportunity to buy a little further out the curve,
Speaker 4: to buy low dollar price bonds, to build in real
Speaker 4: return for a long time.
Speaker 3: Why stay. Maybe I'm too much of a risk taker.
Speaker 4: I was brought up in the high yield market, but
Speaker 4: these are the periods going into the downturn that you
Speaker 4: build your long term portfolios. So that's what I would
Speaker 4: use this opportunity for.
Speaker 1: So you do think high yield is worth the risk
Speaker 1: if we do get some volatility, even with all the
Speaker 1: recession concerns floating around.
Speaker 4: Yes, I don't believe that this time around it's going
Speaker 4: to be the traditional high yield market that's going to
Speaker 4: see the big wave in defaults. That is going to
Speaker 4: happen in either the bank loan market or the private market,
Speaker 4: and then we might not even see them as defaults
Speaker 4: because a lot gets worked out behind the scenes there.
Speaker 3: But that's where the weaker.
Speaker 4: Issuance has come and you know, the lower quality issuance.
Speaker 4: So the traditional high yield market is actually setting up
Speaker 4: to look pretty attractive, you know, Eleaene.
Speaker 1: I wanted to rewind a little bit because you mentioned
Speaker 1: something that I had intended to ask you about, and
Speaker 1: that is the shift into private credit that we've seen.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how many stories I've seen
Speaker 1: about you know, borrowers tapping into the private credit markets
Speaker 1: more and more. I don't think we quite have the
Speaker 1: visibility into it and the transparency to put dollar figures
Speaker 1: on how big of a shift it's been. But clearly
Speaker 1: there's been a big shift into private credit. I'm curious
Speaker 1: what you think is driving that. I mean, is it
Speaker 1: simply a matter of less paperwork, less need for disclosure,
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, or is there more to within that.
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of things that have been
Speaker 3: driving that.
Speaker 4: Part of it was, and I do want to tell
Speaker 4: you that kind of that straight line up has started.
Speaker 3: To roll over.
Speaker 4: Okay, so a little bit less year to date has
Speaker 4: been going into the private markets versus the public markets
Speaker 4: were starting to shift. Rates were so low, so much
Speaker 4: money was looking for something better to do a place
Speaker 4: where they could get higher returns, so they were going
Speaker 4: to the private market.
Speaker 3: That cash was going to the private markets. So now
Speaker 3: the private markets.
Speaker 4: Were flushed with all this cash and what are we
Speaker 4: going to do with it? And they started putting together
Speaker 4: and what we call them club deals. They started to
Speaker 4: join forces, friends getting together, and they would puck deals
Speaker 4: right out of the public market, print them a little
Speaker 4: bit about the same level or even a little bit
Speaker 4: tighter than they would have happened in the public market.
Speaker 4: But for the issuer, they took away that market risk,
Speaker 4: you know, that process of having to bring it out
Speaker 4: into the market as an issuer.
Speaker 3: Oh it's you know, it's five buyers.
Speaker 4: This is going to be much easier to negotiate if
Speaker 4: we do get ourselves into trouble. And a lot of
Speaker 4: this debt that came there was single B and below,
Speaker 4: you know, so it was definitely riskier type of debt.
Speaker 4: It kind of set itself up on both sides to
Speaker 4: be advantageous. Now with money being pulled back from taking
Speaker 4: on that excess risk and short rates at five percent,
Speaker 4: do we really need to go into that type of risk,
Speaker 4: So money is pulling away from it, and those same
Speaker 4: deals that come into the market, and whether they're private
Speaker 4: credit or bank loans, we're seeing them come to the
Speaker 4: market and looking to come back to the high yield market.
Speaker 4: So we're starting to go full circle on this whole swing.
Speaker 4: The bottom line is, I think this is one of
Speaker 4: the most fascinating parts of the debt markets right now.
Speaker 4: These markets are converging. It's getting harder and harder to
Speaker 4: tell the difference between the high yield market, the bank
Speaker 4: loan market, and the private debt market, and the players
Speaker 4: are a lot of the same players.
Speaker 3: The syndicate desks.
Speaker 4: Are you know, for new issues, are all talking to
Speaker 4: each other, and you know, almost any given deal, you
Speaker 4: could find a way to put it into the market
Speaker 4: that you want it to be in if you're a
Speaker 4: large enough buyer. So it's really become an interesting part
Speaker 4: of the market and we're watching it really really closely
Speaker 4: as potent she'll.
Speaker 3: Supply coming back into the debt markets.
Speaker 2: Elaine, I wanted to ask you because we're talking about
Speaker 2: all of these different risks that potentially are on the horizon.
Speaker 2: One of them, which you touched on, is that potentially
Speaker 2: inflation proofs you know, stickier than people think the other
Speaker 2: one is that we are misreading the labor market. And
Speaker 2: I'm wondering what your thought is on that, Like how
Speaker 2: potentially we might be misreading it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, labor has been sticky.
Speaker 4: An other words, unemployment has stayed surprisingly low. We had
Speaker 4: a significant number of cross currents during COVID that took
Speaker 4: a lot of labor out of the market. But aside
Speaker 4: from that, we've also had some really big structural changes.
Speaker 4: We have the baby boomers getting older and getting to
Speaker 4: that age of retirement.
Speaker 3: It's a different cohort.
Speaker 4: They're looking at retirement as let's go, you know, get
Speaker 4: a condo in Florida and play pick a ball and golf.
Speaker 2: That sounds really nice. Actually, I would love to be
Speaker 2: doing that right now.
Speaker 4: And they have more means to retire early. I think
Speaker 4: a lot a lot of people were looking at that
Speaker 4: as a fluke, the early retirements and people coming out
Speaker 4: of the labor force through COVID. You know, don't forget
Speaker 4: how big that baby boomer cohort is. They're going to
Speaker 4: continue to be coming out of the labor force at
Speaker 4: a faster pace.
Speaker 3: And I think at the at the same time.
Speaker 4: Anecdotally locally, what I've noticed is when when we decide
Speaker 4: we're going to go out to dinner.
Speaker 3: Just an example, we decide we're going to go out
Speaker 3: to dinner, we.
Speaker 4: Have to really think about which restaurant is open which
Speaker 4: day because all of the restaurants in our area are
Speaker 4: short staffed.
Speaker 3: So what they've started to.
Speaker 4: Do is closed down for a cup days a week.
Speaker 4: And it's not just happening there. It's not just happening
Speaker 4: in the restaurant industry. It's happening that type of thing
Speaker 4: is happening where you know there is a need or
Speaker 4: companies would like to give better service, have more employees,
Speaker 4: but they're just on the employees to hire. I think
Speaker 4: there's some pent up demand there for labor that will
Speaker 4: come back in if.
Speaker 3: The labor market loosens up.
Speaker 4: So I do think if there's anywhere where we might
Speaker 4: be misreading, is that the pressure on the labor market
Speaker 4: and potentially wages might stick around a little bit longer.
Speaker 1: Well, Elaine Stokes, the new kid on the block, only
Speaker 1: thirty five years at Loomis Hills. Great to catch up
Speaker 1: with you. We're almost out of time. We can't let
Speaker 1: you go yet though, because Lol, Donna's going to tell
Speaker 1: us the craziest thing she saw in markets this week.
Speaker 2: Okay, remember last week I had a kind of lame
Speaker 2: one about Wendy's the chili and the can or whatever. Okay,
Speaker 2: this week's is also about Wendy's. I haven't been to
Speaker 2: Wendy's in years, but Frosty's in the can. No, this
Speaker 2: is so interesting. Oh that's a really good idea. They
Speaker 2: should sell that at grocery stores. I would definitely buy
Speaker 2: Frosty's ice cream anyway. Wendy's is going to start testing
Speaker 2: an AI powered chat bot for drive through orders, so
Speaker 2: you can go to Wendy's, go through the drive through,
Speaker 2: and potentially be talking to an AI chat bot to
Speaker 2: take your place your order.
Speaker 1: She makes a lot of sense, especially given Elaine's restaurant
Speaker 1: worker shortage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and isn't that so cool? Like up until now,
Speaker 2: mostly when we're when any of us have interfaced with
Speaker 2: AI stuff, it's like you going to chat GPT and
Speaker 2: iking you to write you a song around and this
Speaker 2: is like you're out in the real world, You're not
Speaker 2: looking for AI stuff, and potentially you run into this,
Speaker 2: you know, chat spot, Yeah exactly. Yeah, hopefully then I'll
Speaker 2: mess it up.
Speaker 1: That's pretty interesting, I thought, so, yeah, all right, that's
Speaker 1: a good one. How about you, Elaine, see anything crazy
Speaker 1: this week?
Speaker 4: I'm really struggling between my silly one and my serious one.
Speaker 4: I think my silly one a little bit goes with yours,
Speaker 4: and it is how new technology is being used in
Speaker 4: a strange way.
Speaker 3: Sea urchins, you know what.
Speaker 4: Little sea urchins are not well known fact. They like
Speaker 4: to put rocks and shells on their heads to keep predators.
Speaker 3: In the sun away.
Speaker 4: So at an aquarium, some of the workers at the
Speaker 4: aquarium decided to make them to three D print them hats.
Speaker 4: You know, there are going to be uses we're not
Speaker 4: expecting from AI, from three D printing, from all this
Speaker 4: technology that's happened over probably this last ten years.
Speaker 1: I'll say I was not expecting that one.
Speaker 2: That's awesome, honestly, that's so good. That's a really good one.
Speaker 4: And then my serious one is I don't know if
Speaker 4: you saw the story about temperatures in Vietnam.
Speaker 3: Reaching forty four point one.
Speaker 4: Degree celsius that's one hundred and eleven degrees. Thailand tapped
Speaker 4: out at forty four point six celsius.
Speaker 3: That's one hundred and twelve degrees. There is a major
Speaker 3: heat wave going on.
Speaker 4: These are record temperatures. These are temperatures where it doesn't
Speaker 4: matter if it's dry heat or not. I mean, these
Speaker 4: are crazy temperatures.
Speaker 3: And it just got my mind going.
Speaker 4: You know, we have been so focused and so worried
Speaker 4: about heating Europe in the winter. Now we need to
Speaker 4: worry about cooling the planet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point, especially those when those heat
Speaker 1: waves hit Europe and the air conditioning is in the electricity.
Speaker 2: It effects also food supply chains, tourism at.
Speaker 1: Such a Yeah, that's true. That is some hot temperatures. Though,
Speaker 1: all right, I'll give you mine. So Steve Jobs, Uh
Speaker 1: oh no, I didn't look. I didn't pekin Veldona.
Speaker 2: I have my eyes closed.
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs famously did not like to give autographs, so
Speaker 1: which means that in the collector's market his old checks
Speaker 1: are very much a hot item. Who was he banking
Speaker 1: with Apple was Wells Fargo? Wow, it's a check from
Speaker 1: the seventies up for sale on our our auctions. Still
Speaker 1: six hours left to go for the bidding. Okay, sign
Speaker 1: checked by Steve Jobs. Elaine, It's time to play the
Speaker 1: prices precise not.
Speaker 2: The price is right.
Speaker 1: The price is precise. I'll warn you there are six
Speaker 1: hours left in the auction as of the time we're recording.
Speaker 1: But the bidding is pretty close to what his last
Speaker 1: sign check sold for, so I think we're pretty close
Speaker 1: in the price discovery, what do you think the going
Speaker 1: bid is for? Were assigned cashed Steve jobs check.
Speaker 2: I'm going first, you go first. One hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: One hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That's a very confident
Speaker 1: and quick answer.
Speaker 2: Thanks.
Speaker 1: Thanks Elaine, you know the rules. What do you think
Speaker 1: the bid is for? Assigned check Apple computer company check
Speaker 1: signed by Steve Jobs.
Speaker 4: I was going to say exactly what you said, so
Speaker 4: I am gonna take a leap.
Speaker 3: Three hundred and thirty three thousand.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, you guys are big spenders.
Speaker 2: Don't tell me it's like ten thousand.
Speaker 1: Currently I had fifty three thousand.
Speaker 2: Oh that's so much.
Speaker 1: The well come in my experience with these things is
Speaker 1: someone comes in with a high bid at the end.
Speaker 1: Last year's was fifty five thousand for a.
Speaker 2: Piece of paper. Hop that doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 1: Hop on there and bid away. Beldada, you got success.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, these bidders would love to have me.
Speaker 2: I just overbid on every.
Speaker 1: Show Tier one hundred and fifty thousand.
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, not that you much?
Speaker 1: And maybe it is alone? All right? Now you got
Speaker 1: me thinking maybe maybe I should bet on it. It seems underpriced.
Speaker 1: Wildna Kaipar fifty three thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me just spend more with you, all right?
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 1: With that, said Elaine Stokes of Bluma, seals great to
Speaker 1: catch up with you. Really appreciate you allowing us to
Speaker 1: pick your brain on the markets.
Speaker 3: Had a good time, great, Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Elaine. What Goes Up We'll be
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Speaker 2: produced by Stacey wom and our head of podcas cast
Speaker 2: is Stage Problem. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.