1
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,420
Speaker 1: Hello, Odd Lodge listeners. I'm Joe Wiesenthal.

2
00:00:06,620 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy Alloway.

3
00:00:07,700 --> 00:00:10,270
Speaker 3: We're the hosts of the Odd Lodge podcast, and we've

4
00:00:10,300 --> 00:00:11,480
Speaker 3: got something exciting for you.

5
00:00:11,770 --> 00:00:13,970
Speaker 2: That's right. So one of the best parts of hosting

6
00:00:14,070 --> 00:00:16,830
Speaker 2: our podcast is we get to actually meet and interact

7
00:00:16,950 --> 00:00:19,709
Speaker 2: with our listeners. And we know we have some listeners

8
00:00:19,850 --> 00:00:20,989
Speaker 2: over in Los Angeles.

9
00:00:21,170 --> 00:00:21,550
Speaker 1: That's right.

10
00:00:21,570 --> 00:00:24,290
Speaker 3: So if you're in L.A., we're going to be recording

11
00:00:24,470 --> 00:00:28,090
Speaker 3: a live show, some live recordings at the Vermont Theater

12
00:00:28,130 --> 00:00:29,510
Speaker 3: in Hollywood on September 17th.

13
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,000
Speaker 2: We have some really exciting guests lined up, have some

14
00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:36,450
Speaker 2: really great conversations planned. So go ahead and get your tickets.

15
00:00:36,470 --> 00:00:39,890
Speaker 2: You can find those over at Bloomberg.com forward slash oddlots

16
00:00:40,030 --> 00:00:42,529
Speaker 2: or click the link below in the show notes and

17
00:00:42,690 --> 00:00:51,170
Speaker 2: come and say hi when you're there. Bloomberg Audio Studios.

18
00:00:51,630 --> 00:00:52,310
Speaker 3: Podcasts.

19
00:00:52,650 --> 00:00:53,970
Speaker 4: Radio. News.

20
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,620
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

21
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:09,900
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Weisenthal.

22
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy Alloway.

23
00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,230
Speaker 3: Oil has been in the headlines a lot lately.

24
00:01:14,390 --> 00:01:14,670
Speaker 2: Just a bit.

25
00:01:14,690 --> 00:01:20,890
Speaker 1: For obvious reasons. But, you know, it has gotten headlines.

26
00:01:20,970 --> 00:01:24,410
Speaker 3: But another commodity that's near basically at record highs that

27
00:01:24,430 --> 00:01:26,490
Speaker 3: just keeps to be going straight up for years now

28
00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:26,890
Speaker 3: is copper.

29
00:01:27,180 --> 00:01:30,789
Speaker 2: Yeah, so copper, I think, reached a new high of,

30
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,429
Speaker 2: it was something like 14,875 a ton earlier this week.

31
00:01:36,069 --> 00:01:39,930
Speaker 2: It is down about 3% as we're recording this episode,

32
00:01:39,970 --> 00:01:42,190
Speaker 2: but I think it kind of speaks to, I guess,

33
00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:44,369
Speaker 2: one of the tensions when it comes to copper, which

34
00:01:44,470 --> 00:01:47,350
Speaker 2: is everyone has been saying, or a lot of people

35
00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:51,640
Speaker 2: have been saying, that there is this long-term, strong demand

36
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,740
Speaker 2: impulse for copper because data centers use copper. We need

37
00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:59,270
Speaker 2: it to electrify the grid. all of that stuff. And

38
00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:03,070
Speaker 2: yet the price has often lagged behind. And moreover, you

39
00:02:03,090 --> 00:02:07,550
Speaker 2: get this volatility that means people who actually produce copper

40
00:02:07,950 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 2: are sometimes reluctant to increase production. And in fact, I

41
00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 2: was looking at a note from our colleagues over at

42
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,040
Speaker 2: BNF recently, and they were saying that this year we

43
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 2: might have the first decline in copper production since 2017.

44
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 3: I mean, this is part of why so-called like super cycles,

45
00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:27,350
Speaker 3: can happen.

46
00:02:27,370 --> 00:02:28,570
Speaker 1: And we've talked.

47
00:02:28,410 --> 00:02:30,680
Speaker 3: About this in so many different roles, both with the

48
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,460
Speaker 3: pure like sort of like resource extraction industry, but even

49
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,060
Speaker 3: now there's sort of like manufactured goods, like if we're

50
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,739
Speaker 3: talking about memory, which is you can have these like

51
00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,120
Speaker 3: periods of volatility. You don't really want to invest more

52
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,540
Speaker 3: during periods of volatility. Then you sort of have like

53
00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,690
Speaker 3: a scarcity of capacity. Then it ramps up the price.

54
00:02:50,070 --> 00:02:51,570
Speaker 3: And then it's like, oh, build more. But then it's like,

55
00:02:51,630 --> 00:02:52,489
Speaker 3: everyone remembers that vault.

56
00:02:52,510 --> 00:02:53,109
Speaker 2: Memories are long.

57
00:02:53,210 --> 00:02:53,410
Speaker 4: Right.

58
00:02:53,450 --> 00:02:54,950
Speaker 2: And we saw that in Shale as well.

59
00:02:55,030 --> 00:02:55,930
Speaker 1: Memories are long.

60
00:02:56,389 --> 00:02:59,370
Speaker 3: And then, you know, it's like, I guess it's human psychology.

61
00:02:59,830 --> 00:03:01,790
Speaker 3: Everyone finally taps at the same time.

62
00:03:02,030 --> 00:03:03,079
Speaker 1: And they're like, you know what?

63
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,620
Speaker 3: We're going to massively expand mining operations, which don't happen

64
00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:09,660
Speaker 3: overnight by any stretch. And then suddenly you get gluts

65
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 3: and your shareholders get mad at you, etc. Why don't

66
00:03:12,060 --> 00:03:15,840
Speaker 3: you just ride this wave, etc.? And so these things

67
00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:18,970
Speaker 3: can then just persist and feed on each other for

68
00:03:19,530 --> 00:03:22,070
Speaker 3: a long time. But to your point, it's a crucial,

69
00:03:22,090 --> 00:03:26,950
Speaker 3: you know, there's so much interest these days in resource nationalism, infrastructure,

70
00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:28,410
Speaker 3: electricity and so forth.

71
00:03:28,669 --> 00:03:30,070
Speaker 1: And copper really is at the center of it.

72
00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:32,649
Speaker 2: Did you see this is a slight tangent, but did

73
00:03:32,669 --> 00:03:34,430
Speaker 2: you see the tweet from Peter Schiff?

74
00:03:34,910 --> 00:03:36,990
Speaker 1: No. What do you say?

75
00:03:37,660 --> 00:03:41,180
Speaker 2: With copper at 6.85 per pound, the melt value of

76
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:46,890
Speaker 2: a pre-1982 penny is 4.5 cents. And he calls it,

77
00:03:47,470 --> 00:03:51,730
Speaker 2: he calls melting pennies not only risk-free, but the upside

78
00:03:51,770 --> 00:03:55,150
Speaker 2: potential is huge. Which is kind of funny because I'm

79
00:03:55,230 --> 00:03:58,570
Speaker 2: pretty sure that melting down U.S. currency is in fact

80
00:03:58,610 --> 00:03:59,950
Speaker 2: illegal in the U.S. I don't think you're supposed to.

81
00:04:00,010 --> 00:04:01,550
Speaker 2: And so there might be a little bit of a

82
00:04:01,590 --> 00:04:02,060
Speaker 2: risk there.

83
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,270
Speaker 3: I also like think about like, how much legwork and

84
00:04:06,370 --> 00:04:09,250
Speaker 3: effort you would have to do to even like find

85
00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:13,300
Speaker 3: a bunch of pre-1982 pennies and whether that would come

86
00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:15,700
Speaker 3: to more than three pennies each when you think about

87
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:16,060
Speaker 3: the effort.

88
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,420
Speaker 1: Anyway, but yes, copper.

89
00:04:18,740 --> 00:04:20,580
Speaker 2: I mean, that said, I mean, that tweet is funny

90
00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:23,400
Speaker 2: for many reasons, but there is a lot of supply,

91
00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:26,310
Speaker 2: copper supply that comes from recycling. And that is in

92
00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:28,630
Speaker 2: tension with the new production as well.

93
00:04:28,650 --> 00:04:30,230
Speaker 1: So we should talk about that. And that is an

94
00:04:30,390 --> 00:04:31,150
Speaker 1: important element.

95
00:04:31,310 --> 00:04:31,650
Speaker 4: Anyway.

96
00:04:32,470 --> 00:04:35,740
Speaker 3: We got to do a copper episode. And this time

97
00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:38,950
Speaker 3: we're going to be speaking with someone like right in it.

98
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,720
Speaker 3: Someone who has to make these decisions about investment and

99
00:04:42,779 --> 00:04:46,940
Speaker 3: how sustainable it is, what's optimal and the cost to

100
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,930
Speaker 3: build out new capacity, how these calculations actually work. We

101
00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,289
Speaker 3: literally have the perfect guest today. We're going to be

102
00:04:53,330 --> 00:04:57,370
Speaker 3: speaking with Robert Friedland. He is the founder of Ivanhoe Mines,

103
00:04:57,830 --> 00:05:02,060
Speaker 3: Ivanhoe Electric. a new startup called iPulse, which we're going

104
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,750
Speaker 3: to learn about. He has been in the industry for

105
00:05:04,930 --> 00:05:09,469
Speaker 3: over 40 years, literally getting his hands dirty and pulling

106
00:05:09,490 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 3: copper out of the ground. So, Robert, thank you so

107
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,620
Speaker 3: much for coming on OddLots. Thrilled to have you here.

108
00:05:14,980 --> 00:05:16,980
Speaker 4: What a pleasure to be in the New York studios.

109
00:05:17,450 --> 00:05:19,670
Speaker 4: I just had the opportunity to meet Mike Bloomberg, which

110
00:05:19,710 --> 00:05:20,490
Speaker 4: is amazing.

111
00:05:20,610 --> 00:05:20,990
Speaker 1: This is great.

112
00:05:21,050 --> 00:05:23,210
Speaker 3: You know, I've always said while I work at Bloomberg,

113
00:05:23,290 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 3: it's like the old ESPN commercials where you like walk

114
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,360
Speaker 3: around and you get to like meet all these luminaries

115
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 3: just milling about the office, including our boss.

116
00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 1: Why don't you give us a, for those who don't know,

117
00:05:34,180 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 1: why don't.

118
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,920
Speaker 3: You give us a little bit of overview of Ivanhoe

119
00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:41,730
Speaker 3: Mines and just like the portfolio of things you work on?

120
00:05:41,810 --> 00:05:44,010
Speaker 3: What does it all add up to and look like?

121
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,050
Speaker 4: Well, in life, you know, you tend to learn more

122
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,170
Speaker 4: and more about less and less. We've been in the

123
00:05:49,210 --> 00:05:55,750
Speaker 4: mining business for over 40 years globally. And in recent years,

124
00:05:56,490 --> 00:05:59,270
Speaker 4: Standard & Poor's has declared copper as the new oil.

125
00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,780
Speaker 4: We used to fight wars over crude oil. I doubt

126
00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:06,380
Speaker 4: we would have gone after Saddam Hussein with shock and

127
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,810
Speaker 4: awe if there was absolutely no oil in Iraq. But today,

128
00:06:10,830 --> 00:06:14,409
Speaker 4: the supply chain, which is a mystical concept to most people,

129
00:06:15,710 --> 00:06:21,290
Speaker 4: is being balkanized in competing geopolitical groups. There's a war

130
00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:24,830
Speaker 4: going on that's spreading, affecting the Strait of Hormuz and

131
00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,700
Speaker 4: other critical materials. And copper is central to everything we do.

132
00:06:29,779 --> 00:06:34,160
Speaker 4: This super high technology studio, which is enabling us to

133
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 4: talk to the whole world, is completely dependent on copper.

134
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,740
Speaker 4: And more importantly, on mining, because everything you touch, we

135
00:06:42,820 --> 00:06:45,990
Speaker 4: either mined it or we grew it agriculturally. And the

136
00:06:46,050 --> 00:06:49,870
Speaker 4: farmers are totally dependent on mined product anyway, like fertilizer

137
00:06:49,970 --> 00:06:53,650
Speaker 4: or their tractors. So it is time to talk about

138
00:06:53,810 --> 00:06:57,650
Speaker 4: copper's role as a paradigm for a suite of critical

139
00:06:57,690 --> 00:07:00,860
Speaker 4: metals without which we're really going to have severe problems.

140
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,180
Speaker 2: Can you give us your sort of origin story? How

141
00:07:04,220 --> 00:07:06,480
Speaker 2: did you get into mining? Why were you interested in

142
00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:07,020
Speaker 2: the space?

143
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,820
Speaker 4: This is a strange and bizarre story, but Steve Jobs

144
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,700
Speaker 4: and I had a partnership that goes way, way, way back.

145
00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,820
Speaker 4: Our partnership was stolen and has been sold on the

146
00:07:20,860 --> 00:07:23,740
Speaker 4: secondary market to a movie producer. But Steve and I

147
00:07:23,780 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 4: were 50-50 partners where I was the general partner and

148
00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 4: he was the limited partner. And we financed it by

149
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 4: a loan from the Bank of America on his Apple shares. Wow.

150
00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:35,800
Speaker 1: What year are we talking about here?

151
00:07:35,980 --> 00:07:38,320
Speaker 4: Oh, it would have been in the 1980s. Okay. And

152
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 4: we went out and started buying timberland because we thought

153
00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:44,540
Speaker 4: we were going to be rich hippies. And trees grow

154
00:07:44,580 --> 00:07:48,730
Speaker 4: about 6% a year. Just leave them alone. Douglas fir trees.

155
00:07:49,030 --> 00:07:51,330
Speaker 4: We thought we'd just live in a teepee and get rich.

156
00:07:51,970 --> 00:07:54,650
Speaker 2: That's the dream, being a rich hippie, I got to say.

157
00:07:54,910 --> 00:07:58,670
Speaker 4: Yeah. And what happened was some of this timberland we

158
00:07:59,010 --> 00:08:01,970
Speaker 4: bought in Oregon, there was an old gold mine that

159
00:08:02,010 --> 00:08:04,700
Speaker 4: had been closed down in 1942. I don't know if

160
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:10,300
Speaker 4: you're aware, under Executive Order L-208, Franklin D. Roosevelt shut

161
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 4: all the gold mines to force the miners to mine

162
00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 4: lead and mainly copper and zinc for the war effort.

163
00:08:18,750 --> 00:08:21,570
Speaker 4: And in fact, during the war, for three years, we

164
00:08:21,610 --> 00:08:24,489
Speaker 4: made our pennies out of zinc rather than copper because

165
00:08:24,530 --> 00:08:28,590
Speaker 4: copper was so critical to World War II. In World

166
00:08:28,630 --> 00:08:30,630
Speaker 4: War I, the price of copper went to the moon,

167
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,110
Speaker 4: William Randolph Hearst owned the Butte, Montana copper mine. And

168
00:08:35,150 --> 00:08:37,070
Speaker 4: with that, he bought up all the media in the

169
00:08:37,090 --> 00:08:39,930
Speaker 4: United States and built the Hearst Castle. So he was

170
00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:42,630
Speaker 4: sort of the Jeff Bezos of his day. And in

171
00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:45,770
Speaker 4: World War II, copper was so scarce, we had to

172
00:08:45,809 --> 00:08:49,109
Speaker 4: mine zinc to make our pennies. And today, as you

173
00:08:49,170 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 4: just said, a copper penny is worth about four or

174
00:08:53,010 --> 00:08:57,079
Speaker 4: five cents. And that's a good sort of indication of

175
00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:57,740
Speaker 4: where we're headed.

176
00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:01,690
Speaker 2: So there was a mine. What happened from there?

177
00:09:01,950 --> 00:09:04,929
Speaker 4: Keep going, keep going.

178
00:09:05,030 --> 00:09:07,170
Speaker 3: If you want to just spend an hour telling Steve

179
00:09:07,190 --> 00:09:09,330
Speaker 3: Jobs mining stories, I'm very happy.

180
00:09:09,030 --> 00:09:09,489
Speaker 1: To just talk about it.

181
00:09:09,490 --> 00:09:10,829
Speaker 2: I just want to hear mining stories.

182
00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:13,830
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we could spend days on Steve

183
00:09:13,870 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 4: Jobs stories, but one thing leads to another, and I

184
00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 4: spent years in India studying yoga and meditation and never

185
00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:27,199
Speaker 4: dreamed in my wildest dreams that by my age I

186
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,500
Speaker 4: would learn everything there is to know about almost nothing,

187
00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:32,280
Speaker 4: which is how to find mines and how to develop

188
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,380
Speaker 4: them in countries around the world. And we've done that

189
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,900
Speaker 4: probably more than anybody. And we've found more critical copper

190
00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 4: mines and other types of mines than any other group

191
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,470
Speaker 4: in the world. So we've developed sort of a love-hate

192
00:09:47,510 --> 00:09:52,850
Speaker 4: relationship with mining. We've tasted failure and we've tasted success.

193
00:09:52,950 --> 00:09:56,390
Speaker 4: And success tastes a lot better. And now I've been

194
00:09:56,429 --> 00:09:59,970
Speaker 4: spending more time with our government, both the Biden ministry

195
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,579
Speaker 4: and the Trump administration, as the walls start squeezing in

196
00:10:04,660 --> 00:10:07,820
Speaker 4: on us. If you think about Indiana Jones and the

197
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,330
Speaker 4: Temple of Doom and the walls are coming in to

198
00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:13,490
Speaker 4: squeeze you and there's this giant ball coming down a

199
00:10:13,550 --> 00:10:16,590
Speaker 4: ramp to crush you and you have to dive underneath

200
00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:20,900
Speaker 4: a trap door that's coming down. We are really looking

201
00:10:21,179 --> 00:10:25,390
Speaker 4: at the weaponization of certain critical raw materials in the

202
00:10:25,429 --> 00:10:31,770
Speaker 4: supply chain. And it's really a profound national security interest.

203
00:10:32,270 --> 00:10:34,010
Speaker 4: And it comes at the same time that a lot

204
00:10:34,030 --> 00:10:38,449
Speaker 4: of humanity is still worried about anthropomorphic global warming. I

205
00:10:38,490 --> 00:10:41,230
Speaker 4: know it's not as fashionable during the Trump administration to

206
00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:44,640
Speaker 4: worry about how hot it is out there. But actually,

207
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 4: last year was the hottest year in 132 years since

208
00:10:48,059 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 4: temperatures were recorded And the metals we need to do

209
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,069
Speaker 4: something about that are the same metals that are needed

210
00:10:54,110 --> 00:10:58,030
Speaker 4: for drone warfare or the defense from drone warfare. And

211
00:10:58,130 --> 00:11:01,620
Speaker 4: so we're seeing a sort of perfect storm in a

212
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,730
Speaker 4: balkanized world economy where demand for certain critical metals is

213
00:11:06,990 --> 00:11:07,910
Speaker 4: going to infinity.

214
00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:25,770
Speaker 1: You know, I used to be a hippie, too.

215
00:11:25,790 --> 00:11:27,449
Speaker 2: I was used to be.

216
00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 3: Well, you know, like I was raised by vegetarian parents

217
00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:36,020
Speaker 3: who used to meditate. And then when I was in college,

218
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:38,460
Speaker 3: I lived in a vegan co-op and stuff like that.

219
00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:41,380
Speaker 3: But now I work in a big office building in

220
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,979
Speaker 3: New York City. And occasionally I even have to put

221
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,740
Speaker 3: on a suit and tie. And I like think about like, oh,

222
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,060
Speaker 3: what is my 20? What would my 22 year old

223
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,980
Speaker 3: self have thought? Do you have those thoughts? Do you

224
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:57,500
Speaker 3: ever think about where you are today and then the

225
00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,420
Speaker 3: 25-year-old version of you and think, is this continuity? Would

226
00:12:01,460 --> 00:12:04,010
Speaker 3: that person have been happy with me the way it was?

227
00:12:04,030 --> 00:12:05,050
Speaker 1: Because I think about these things.

228
00:12:05,270 --> 00:12:09,770
Speaker 4: Well, I'll deny the use of the word hippie. We'll

229
00:12:09,809 --> 00:12:12,090
Speaker 4: say it was plain living and high thinking.

230
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:13,370
Speaker 1: Okay.

231
00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:17,190
Speaker 4: We went through the psychedelic era before I was 20

232
00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:21,190
Speaker 4: years of age in the late 1960s. And it was

233
00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:24,490
Speaker 4: sort of tune on, tune in, drop out, and then

234
00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:27,750
Speaker 4: crawl back. And then we got into yoga and meditation,

235
00:12:27,790 --> 00:12:29,949
Speaker 4: went to India and did all that stuff for years.

236
00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 4: And then fell into sort of the reality distortion field

237
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,700
Speaker 4: of trying to dream up a business and make a difference.

238
00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:43,640
Speaker 4: And now I've passed the age of 76. I'm sort

239
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 4: of worried about our country's national security. I'm worried about

240
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,980
Speaker 4: the United States versus China. I think a lot of

241
00:12:51,020 --> 00:12:54,140
Speaker 4: people are selling the idea that the Chinese people are

242
00:12:54,179 --> 00:12:58,190
Speaker 4: the mortal enemy of the Americans. That's not true. It's

243
00:12:58,230 --> 00:13:02,490
Speaker 4: not true. But our systems are in conflict, and the

244
00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:06,709
Speaker 4: world is balkanized into opposing groups. And we're going away

245
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:09,190
Speaker 4: from crude oil being critical. We have plenty of crude

246
00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:12,250
Speaker 4: oil in the United States, although we don't have much

247
00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:16,130
Speaker 4: refining capacity. The crack spreads on diesel are at an

248
00:13:16,190 --> 00:13:19,850
Speaker 4: all-time high. Yeah. But these high diesel prices and the

249
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:22,840
Speaker 4: crisis around the Strait of Hormuz are going to lead

250
00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:28,059
Speaker 4: to some really crazy implicit consequences. And we sit in

251
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,699
Speaker 4: the middle of that storm in the mining industry, particularly

252
00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:34,460
Speaker 4: in copper. And that's something I'm very happy to talk

253
00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:34,760
Speaker 4: to you.

254
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

255
00:13:36,059 --> 00:13:39,600
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm tempted to ask more about your psychedelics era,

256
00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:42,340
Speaker 2: but I won't stick to the topic copper.

257
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:42,420
Speaker 4: So.

258
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,020
Speaker 2: We seem to have some consensus that demand for copper

259
00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:49,860
Speaker 2: is going up. There's this need to electrify. There's the

260
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 2: data center story. There's all of that. There's also the

261
00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:57,020
Speaker 2: national security interest angle, which you just described. And yet

262
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 2: production has lagged. We don't see a lot of new

263
00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:07,500
Speaker 2: mines started. And I'm just wondering, with copper at $ 15, 000

264
00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:09,450
Speaker 2: or almost $ 15, 000 a ton, what does the industry need

265
00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:13,050
Speaker 2: to see in order to be confident in boosting production?

266
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 4: Let's start with the fact that if we go back

267
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 4: to Mohenjo-daro, our species has mined 700 million metric tons

268
00:14:22,260 --> 00:14:26,060
Speaker 4: of copper. It sounds like a lot. And you could

269
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:27,880
Speaker 4: recycle it and get it back. All you have to

270
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,500
Speaker 4: do is tear down everything in the United States and

271
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,590
Speaker 4: make it look like the days of the woolly mammoths,

272
00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:36,730
Speaker 4: and we'd get back about 300 million tons. And in Europe,

273
00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:39,090
Speaker 4: we'd get 200 million tons, and in Asia and other,

274
00:14:39,090 --> 00:14:43,230
Speaker 4: 200 million tons. But unfortunately, we don't want to go

275
00:14:43,290 --> 00:14:48,490
Speaker 4: back to freezing in the dark. And at the rate

276
00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:52,150
Speaker 4: of current global economic growth with 8 billion people on

277
00:14:52,170 --> 00:14:58,160
Speaker 4: this planet, to maintain 3% GDP growth, absent the electrification

278
00:14:58,620 --> 00:15:02,180
Speaker 4: of the world economy, absent electric cars, and let's not

279
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,540
Speaker 4: even get started on data centers, we need to mine

280
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:07,739
Speaker 4: that same amount of copper that we mined in the

281
00:15:07,780 --> 00:15:12,979
Speaker 4: last 10,000 years in the next 18 years. And those

282
00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:14,880
Speaker 4: of us that are in the industry don't see that

283
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,680
Speaker 4: as being possible because, as you know, there's the old adage,

284
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,140
Speaker 4: what is 50,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?

285
00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 4: And the answer is a good start. Nobody has built

286
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 4: anything near anybody in the United States as we have

287
00:15:29,580 --> 00:15:33,180
Speaker 4: deindustrialized our country. We haven't built a copper smelter or

288
00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:36,930
Speaker 4: nuclear power plants in this country, nor high-speed trains. I

289
00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:40,430
Speaker 4: think we've been trying to build high-speed trains between Los

290
00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:43,940
Speaker 4: Angeles and and San Francisco for 30 years. But the

291
00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:47,960
Speaker 4: Chinese can build everything. They can build oil refineries, nuclear

292
00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:52,740
Speaker 4: power plants, and high-speed rail. But we outsourced all that.

293
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,270
Speaker 4: In the last decade, when you went to Walmart, everything

294
00:15:56,330 --> 00:15:59,750
Speaker 4: you saw said, made in China. In fact, one of

295
00:15:59,790 --> 00:16:02,450
Speaker 4: the best restaurants in Beijing, in the Grand Hyatt Hotel,

296
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:05,530
Speaker 4: took that as a label. It was called Made in China.

297
00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:09,470
Speaker 4: It was a great Chinese restaurant. But now we're waking

298
00:16:09,510 --> 00:16:13,220
Speaker 4: up to the fact that we've deindustrialized our country and

299
00:16:13,270 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 4: we need copper metal if you believe in greening the

300
00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 4: world economy. If you want electric cars, air conditioners, microwave ovens,

301
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:24,500
Speaker 4: we need copper metal. It's very copper intensive. We also

302
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,660
Speaker 4: need copper in sophisticated armaments and in those kinds of

303
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 4: missiles like Patriots that are interceptors against weaponry that is

304
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,130
Speaker 4: suddenly being used against civilians in conflict. that we haven't

305
00:16:37,170 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 4: seen since World War II. And this is at a

306
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,980
Speaker 4: time that most of the great copper mines in Latin

307
00:16:43,020 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 4: America are little old ladies laying in bed waiting to die.

308
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:50,620
Speaker 4: And this is something I need to explain to you guys.

309
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 4: So what started all this was originally the biggest producer

310
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,979
Speaker 4: of copper in the world was the Democratic Republic of

311
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 4: the Congo. It used to belong to King Leopold of Belgium.

312
00:17:01,860 --> 00:17:05,110
Speaker 4: He owned the people, the elephants, the ivory. And they

313
00:17:05,130 --> 00:17:09,290
Speaker 4: mined copper there for centuries. But around the turn of

314
00:17:09,330 --> 00:17:13,860
Speaker 4: the century, America dug the Panama Canal with big steam shovels.

315
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,140
Speaker 4: A lot of people died of malaria digging that canal.

316
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 4: But when the canal was finished, there were these giant

317
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,900
Speaker 4: steam shovels that were left over. And the Guggenheim family,

318
00:17:24,940 --> 00:17:26,730
Speaker 4: who were in the rag trade here in New York,

319
00:17:26,810 --> 00:17:29,770
Speaker 4: bought those shovels for pennies on the dollar and took

320
00:17:29,790 --> 00:17:32,710
Speaker 4: them down to Chile and to use them to start

321
00:17:32,750 --> 00:17:35,149
Speaker 4: digging for copper metal, because we were getting into the

322
00:17:35,210 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 4: first industrial revolution, 1910, 1920, President Polk, and they went

323
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 4: to a place called Chuqui, Camada, in Chile, and the

324
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:47,260
Speaker 4: grade of the copper was 3%. They took those old

325
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,260
Speaker 4: steam shovels, and their company was called Asarco, which was

326
00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:55,210
Speaker 4: affectionately known as the American Smelting and Robbing Company. And

327
00:17:55,250 --> 00:17:57,790
Speaker 4: the Guggenheim family made so much money, they left the

328
00:17:58,210 --> 00:18:01,810
Speaker 4: Solomon R. Guggenheim Company Museum of Modern Art here in

329
00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:06,820
Speaker 4: New York on Fifth Avenue, designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Now,

330
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 4: there were two other great American mining companies that rose

331
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,540
Speaker 4: out of our industrial renaissance. There was Anaconda and Kennecott,

332
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,940
Speaker 4: but all of them were nationalized by a leftist president

333
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,489
Speaker 4: in Chile named Allende. Allende took them away, took them

334
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:27,650
Speaker 4: for the Chilean state, and America responded by killing him.

335
00:18:27,869 --> 00:18:32,409
Speaker 4: The United States CIA, murdered Allende, and he was replaced

336
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:38,609
Speaker 4: by a right-wing general named Pinochet. And Pinochet said, I

337
00:18:38,670 --> 00:18:40,750
Speaker 4: need these copper mines. He didn't give them back to

338
00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:43,710
Speaker 4: the United States. In fact, he kept them. They're called

339
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:47,730
Speaker 4: Codelco today. And he said, 10% of the copper produced

340
00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:50,929
Speaker 4: will come off the top to finance the Chilean army.

341
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:54,130
Speaker 4: And that was sort of the beginning of the wave

342
00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:59,129
Speaker 4: of nationalization of resources in And Aramco was originally found

343
00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:03,390
Speaker 4: by an American oil company, and then Saudi Arabia took

344
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:06,100
Speaker 4: the oil back. And today, most of the oil in

345
00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:11,159
Speaker 4: the world belongs to sovereign oil companies. And America was

346
00:19:11,260 --> 00:19:16,660
Speaker 4: left without a great copper champion. And when I was younger, during, say,

347
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:22,970
Speaker 4: the Clinton era, we started embracing China. I was very

348
00:19:23,050 --> 00:19:24,990
Speaker 4: early into China. I first went into China in the

349
00:19:25,030 --> 00:19:29,190
Speaker 4: early 1980s. George Shultz introduced me to China. I was,

350
00:19:29,250 --> 00:19:32,590
Speaker 4: in fact, the first American to go mining in China,

351
00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:38,390
Speaker 4: in Western China, in Xinjiang. And I watched the incredible

352
00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:42,130
Speaker 4: rise of the Chinese people. No one has uplifted their

353
00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:46,190
Speaker 4: economy that far that fast in human history. And we

354
00:19:46,270 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 4: thought by bringing China into the WTO, we were going

355
00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:53,179
Speaker 4: to turn the Chinese into Americans. We thought all the

356
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,300
Speaker 4: girls wanted Manolo Blahnik shoes and Birkin bags. All the

357
00:19:57,340 --> 00:20:01,379
Speaker 4: guys wanted Porsches. And they did an incredible job of

358
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 4: uplifting their society. But things haven't worked out exactly right.

359
00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 4: as we thought, between our respective societies. Now, most of

360
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,459
Speaker 4: the mining fell to junior mining companies listed in Australia

361
00:20:18,550 --> 00:20:22,530
Speaker 4: or Canada for decades. These companies were registered in Canada,

362
00:20:22,550 --> 00:20:27,149
Speaker 4: like ships are registered in Liberia. Legislation was friendlier up

363
00:20:27,170 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 4: there for the risks with mining. Thousands of these little

364
00:20:30,820 --> 00:20:33,780
Speaker 4: juniors would go around looking for mining, and the big

365
00:20:33,859 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 4: mining companies became more and more brain-dead. They became like

366
00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:42,859
Speaker 4: giant donut-shaped law firms with mediocre operating companies in the middle.

367
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 4: For example, Exxon doesn't really drill for oil today. It's

368
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,780
Speaker 4: a big law firm, but they hire people like Schlumberger

369
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,100
Speaker 4: or Baker Hughes to do their work, and they just

370
00:20:53,140 --> 00:20:57,510
Speaker 4: sort of move on. And if you look at the

371
00:20:57,570 --> 00:21:00,290
Speaker 4: food chain, when I was young, I grew up in

372
00:21:00,310 --> 00:21:03,950
Speaker 4: the 1950s, the United States government made a little pyramid,

373
00:21:03,970 --> 00:21:06,140
Speaker 4: a food pyramid for us, and it said, You're supposed

374
00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 4: to drink four glasses of cow's milk every day and

375
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:11,830
Speaker 4: a certain amount of milk and cheese and eggs and ham.

376
00:21:12,350 --> 00:21:15,710
Speaker 4: And at the top of that food pyramid was steak, meat.

377
00:21:16,190 --> 00:21:18,189
Speaker 4: And when I was in school, you know, we were

378
00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:20,689
Speaker 4: given that food pyramid. And when I was a kid,

379
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:24,330
Speaker 4: you know, I'm remembering this vividly. At the age of eight,

380
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:27,489
Speaker 4: they made us get under the desk to practice for

381
00:21:27,530 --> 00:21:29,859
Speaker 4: nuclear war and the event of a nuclear bomb. And

382
00:21:29,910 --> 00:21:32,780
Speaker 4: I was the kid that told my teacher, this is crazy.

383
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,710
Speaker 4: We're all going to get vaporized. If there's a nuclear war,

384
00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:38,870
Speaker 4: it's always a rebel, always sort of getting in trouble. Now,

385
00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:42,580
Speaker 4: nobody that I know of in California eats out of

386
00:21:42,619 --> 00:21:48,300
Speaker 4: that food pyramid anymore. People go to Erewhon, and there

387
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,140
Speaker 4: are maybe wheatgrass juice and sunlight and some Pilates, but

388
00:21:52,220 --> 00:21:55,139
Speaker 4: there's nobody eating that stuff anymore. But I want you

389
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,649
Speaker 4: to know the Pentagon also had a food pyramid, and

390
00:21:58,690 --> 00:22:03,030
Speaker 4: they got that all wrong. And what modern warfare requires

391
00:22:03,109 --> 00:22:05,070
Speaker 4: is none of the stuff in that food pyramid. And

392
00:22:05,109 --> 00:22:08,310
Speaker 4: so now I get to get on odd lots and

393
00:22:08,369 --> 00:22:11,010
Speaker 4: try to explain the magic of mining to you guys.

394
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:13,090
Speaker 1: Amazing. Amazing.

395
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:15,930
Speaker 3: You know, just again, not to keep belaboring the point

396
00:22:16,060 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 3: as hippies, but as someone who grew up in the

397
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 3: presence of a lot of wheatgrass, once again, it feels

398
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 3: like history comes back. And I was well prepared for

399
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:24,660
Speaker 3: this moment.

400
00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:25,139
Speaker 4: All right.

401
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: Let's talk about that pyramid then. Let's just say the

402
00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 3: politics suddenly changed such that you didn't need a lot

403
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: of lawyers, such that people didn't complain if they lived

404
00:22:36,420 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 3: in the presence of a mine or something. I don't know,

405
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,050
Speaker 3: miraculous things that could never happen. Why don't you just

406
00:22:43,070 --> 00:22:45,810
Speaker 3: talk about, I guess, the math and the engineering in

407
00:22:45,869 --> 00:22:50,970
Speaker 3: terms of the deficit that you foresee between demand, supply,

408
00:22:51,130 --> 00:22:53,629
Speaker 3: and what it would take, I guess, from an engineering

409
00:22:53,650 --> 00:22:58,310
Speaker 3: standpoint or a money standpoint? to build out the supply

410
00:22:58,369 --> 00:23:01,629
Speaker 3: that we need for whatever are the key rungs of

411
00:23:01,650 --> 00:23:02,169
Speaker 3: that pyramid?

412
00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:07,180
Speaker 4: That's a brilliant question and opens up an amazing can

413
00:23:07,220 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 4: of worms for your audience. So the largest copper mine

414
00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:15,060
Speaker 4: in the world is La Escondida. It's in Chile. And

415
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,590
Speaker 4: we need to look at that clinically to try to

416
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:23,140
Speaker 4: understand the existential dilemma we face. When it was first

417
00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 4: found a generation ago, the grade was close to 2% copper.

418
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 4: They've been digging deeper, deeper, deeper, and today it's 0.8

419
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,270
Speaker 4: of 1%. It belongs to Rio Tinto and BHP, the

420
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:38,590
Speaker 4: largest mining companies in the world, in the Western world.

421
00:23:39,330 --> 00:23:41,609
Speaker 4: But within two years, the grade is going to drop

422
00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:45,310
Speaker 4: to 0.4 of 1%. So the grade is going down.

423
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:49,109
Speaker 4: And as that grade declines, the rock deeper in the

424
00:23:49,150 --> 00:23:52,730
Speaker 4: pit is getting harder and harder to to crush and grind.

425
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,859
Speaker 4: And you need to take rock and reduce it to

426
00:23:55,940 --> 00:23:58,379
Speaker 4: talcum powder to get the metal out. The way we

427
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 4: get the metal out of rock is we make talcum

428
00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 4: powder out of it. And about 4% to 5% of

429
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 4: all the energy produced on planet Earth is utilized in

430
00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 4: the crushing and grinding of rock, which is a huge

431
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 4: number when we're worried about the generation of global warming gas. Now,

432
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,459
Speaker 4: that mine sits at 12,000 feet elevation in the Andes.

433
00:24:22,109 --> 00:24:26,490
Speaker 4: And it hasn't rained in the Atacama Desert in 30,000 years.

434
00:24:27,310 --> 00:24:31,379
Speaker 4: And you need two cubic meters of water to crush

435
00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:35,220
Speaker 4: one cubic meter of rock. So as the grade of

436
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 4: that rock is declining in copper, you need to crush

437
00:24:38,980 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: and grind more and more rock to get less and

438
00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 4: less metal. And since you're generating the electricity in Chile

439
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,909
Speaker 4: by burning primarily coal, they have some solar, but the

440
00:24:49,950 --> 00:24:53,290
Speaker 4: sun only shines six hours a day. You need 24-hour-a-day

441
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:57,110
Speaker 4: power in the mining industry. The global warming gas generated

442
00:24:57,150 --> 00:25:00,010
Speaker 4: by crushing and grinding that copper is going up and

443
00:25:00,070 --> 00:25:03,510
Speaker 4: up and up. And to further confuse you, they built

444
00:25:03,530 --> 00:25:08,970
Speaker 4: a $ 4 billion desalinization plant at sea level. They take

445
00:25:09,850 --> 00:25:13,070
Speaker 4: ocean water, get the salt out of it. That's using

446
00:25:13,090 --> 00:25:16,409
Speaker 4: a million dollars a day of electricity because you have

447
00:25:16,430 --> 00:25:19,510
Speaker 4: to pump that water from sea level up to 12,000 feet,

448
00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:23,390
Speaker 4: and the water consumption is going up. The energy to

449
00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:26,330
Speaker 4: generate and pump that clean water uphill is going up.

450
00:25:27,050 --> 00:25:32,470
Speaker 4: And the metallurgical recovery is going down. And so they're

451
00:25:32,510 --> 00:25:35,090
Speaker 4: modeling 10, 12 billion of investment just to make that

452
00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:38,750
Speaker 4: mine go down in production. And that is what's happened

453
00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:42,050
Speaker 4: to our industry. Our global production of copper this year

454
00:25:42,550 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 4: is down, even though prices are up. And that's amazing

455
00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:49,580
Speaker 4: because I just told you we need to mine as

456
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 4: much copper as in the next 18 years, as we

457
00:25:53,460 --> 00:25:58,500
Speaker 4: did in the last 10,000 years, just to maintain global 3%

458
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:03,350
Speaker 4: GDP growth without the electrification of the world economy. Now,

459
00:26:03,790 --> 00:26:06,550
Speaker 4: when you look at data centers, it really gets, if

460
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:11,209
Speaker 4: you want to use our earlier term, psychedelic. Because the

461
00:26:11,270 --> 00:26:17,570
Speaker 4: hyperscalers have incredible market capitalizations. And they had a beautiful

462
00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 4: viral technology. And in fact, in the last 30 years,

463
00:26:21,460 --> 00:26:24,729
Speaker 4: all the capital on Wall Street went into sexy technology

464
00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:28,429
Speaker 4: like the internet and broadband and Netflix and wireless. And

465
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:31,490
Speaker 4: all the kids went into that and the Bloomberg Studios

466
00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:34,970
Speaker 4: were built. But when all the money goes in that direction,

467
00:26:35,930 --> 00:26:39,909
Speaker 4: we didn't put money into basic raw materials, which are

468
00:26:39,950 --> 00:26:43,209
Speaker 4: the foundation on which everything sits. In fact, we stopped

469
00:26:43,290 --> 00:26:47,230
Speaker 4: mining things in the United States. And we sort of

470
00:26:47,790 --> 00:26:49,810
Speaker 4: pushed this all to China. We said, well, let's let

471
00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: the Chinese build everything at Walmart. You go to Walmart,

472
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 4: everything's made in China. So all the pollution was over

473
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 4: there in China. And we thought, this is a good deal.

474
00:26:59,020 --> 00:27:01,869
Speaker 4: We can be a consumer society. We'll drink our lattes

475
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,030
Speaker 4: here and complain about global warming and just let the

476
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:09,510
Speaker 4: Chinese do all the work. And this model is no

477
00:27:09,550 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 4: longer viable. And now we're waking up and finding that

478
00:27:13,410 --> 00:27:17,649
Speaker 4: there really is a critical raw material supply chain In

479
00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 4: the Biden administration, when I used to work with Amos Hochstein,

480
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 4: who was in charge of the energy transition, it was

481
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 4: all about global warming. You remember that world as we

482
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: came out of COVID? We saw that it was getting

483
00:27:30,660 --> 00:27:33,740
Speaker 4: hotter and hotter, and we started thinking for solar power,

484
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,330
Speaker 4: you need copper. For wind, you need copper. The way

485
00:27:37,369 --> 00:27:40,650
Speaker 4: we generate electrical energy, the way we transmit it, this

486
00:27:40,690 --> 00:27:46,090
Speaker 4: studio is ludicrously copper-intensive and energy-intensive, and there is nothing

487
00:27:46,609 --> 00:27:50,950
Speaker 4: And I mean nothing about the internet that is inherently green.

488
00:27:51,790 --> 00:27:54,060
Speaker 4: Let me give you an example. When you do a

489
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 4: Google search, and all of us are guilty of having

490
00:27:57,660 --> 00:28:00,580
Speaker 4: done a Google search, you push that key, you're using

491
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,700
Speaker 4: the amount of electrical energy that it takes to run

492
00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:06,859
Speaker 4: a 100-watt light bulb for about 12 seconds, which doesn't

493
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:09,590
Speaker 4: sound like a lot, but there are hundreds of billions

494
00:28:09,619 --> 00:28:13,270
Speaker 4: of Google searches. And that electricity is not free. You

495
00:28:13,290 --> 00:28:15,989
Speaker 4: think it's free when you do that Google search, but

496
00:28:16,010 --> 00:28:20,129
Speaker 4: it's paid for by advertising. Now, when you do an

497
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:24,630
Speaker 4: AI search, and I use ChatGPT4, and we're using Cloud,

498
00:28:25,210 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 4: and you do an AI search, you're using 30 times

499
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 4: more electrical energy. You're using the power it takes to

500
00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 4: run a 100-watt bulb for two minutes or three minutes.

501
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,740
Speaker 4: And every single kid in the world, a five-year-old with

502
00:28:38,780 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: an iPad, is going to be using AI searches. And

503
00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:46,670
Speaker 4: so the electrical demand for AI searches Literally goes to infinity.

504
00:28:47,570 --> 00:28:52,550
Speaker 4: Now here's our problem. Here is our dilemma. AI is

505
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:56,150
Speaker 4: at its roots a military technology, and I want to

506
00:28:56,210 --> 00:28:59,210
Speaker 4: explain why. Do you want to hear this? Please. So

507
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 4: we have a genius, a polymath named Elon Musk. You know,

508
00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:08,500
Speaker 4: his brain is beyond most people's comprehension. It reminds me

509
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 4: a lot of Steven Jobs, but He's developed a series

510
00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 4: of low Earth orbiting satellites where the latency, when we

511
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,420
Speaker 4: send a signal up to outer space, is 27 millionths

512
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,590
Speaker 4: of a second, going up and coming down. Now, if

513
00:29:25,660 --> 00:29:29,710
Speaker 4: I'm sending a drone to kill you, Joe, it knows

514
00:29:29,730 --> 00:29:32,130
Speaker 4: what you look like, even though you've grown your beard

515
00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 4: a little longer. It can identify you.

516
00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:35,250
Speaker 2: To hide from drones.

517
00:29:35,310 --> 00:29:36,710
Speaker 4: You know, a little micro drone. They could be a

518
00:29:36,730 --> 00:29:39,910
Speaker 4: mother drone. It releases baby drones. And this drone is

519
00:29:39,980 --> 00:29:42,780
Speaker 4: looking for you. And going back to the IPI era,

520
00:29:42,820 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: all it has to do is attach itself to your

521
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 4: third eye. Boom, and you're gone. Now, this is a

522
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 4: military technology. Drone technology is so efficacious that the Leopard

523
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,790
Speaker 4: tanks and the Abrams tanks we were giving to Ukraine

524
00:30:00,830 --> 00:30:03,870
Speaker 4: are parked and no longer used because a $ 12 drone

525
00:30:04,250 --> 00:30:07,210
Speaker 4: can find them from the heat signature, from the tailpipe,

526
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 4: and just kill them. So drone warfare depends on AI

527
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,380
Speaker 4: because there's an AI identification of the target. Up it

528
00:30:16,420 --> 00:30:19,540
Speaker 4: goes to the satellite. It comes back down, wipes out

529
00:30:19,580 --> 00:30:23,570
Speaker 4: the target. And if my satellite system has a millionth

530
00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:27,350
Speaker 4: of a second less latency than yours, you die, I don't.

531
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: So AI first goes, to military application. And later on,

532
00:30:34,620 --> 00:30:37,500
Speaker 4: it goes to a beautiful, sexy doll to make love with.

533
00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 4: They're selling those beautiful robots right now in China. And

534
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: those humanoid robots also will utilize astronomic amounts of these

535
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 4: same critical raw materials. And maybe those robots will be

536
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: a terminator, or maybe they'll make a great lover, you know,

537
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: very sympathetic chatting to you. But all of these technologies

538
00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 4: are insanely... Consumptive of electrical energy. Your AI girlfriend is

539
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,100
Speaker 4: actually created by servers. And a server in a server

540
00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:13,530
Speaker 4: farm uses 20 critical metals that are the new oil.

541
00:31:13,570 --> 00:31:16,830
Speaker 4: And you don't even know that you need niobium and

542
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:21,710
Speaker 4: tantalum and palladium and rhodium and rhenium. Or for example,

543
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 4: if you're Jensen Wang and you've got NVIDIA, you need

544
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,610
Speaker 4: gallium nitride. Or if you want to improve memory in chips,

545
00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:36,180
Speaker 4: you need scandium nitride. And so instead of the food

546
00:31:36,220 --> 00:31:39,820
Speaker 4: pyramid that the Army, Navy, and Air Force relied on

547
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 4: in those days, it was stuff like coal and oil.

548
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:45,140
Speaker 4: And yeah, they had a little bit of copper in

549
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,660
Speaker 4: the old food pyramid. Today, it's what we call critical

550
00:31:49,140 --> 00:31:50,620
Speaker 4: raw materials.

551
00:31:51,930 --> 00:31:54,310
Speaker 2: AI girlfriends and boyfriends, please.

552
00:31:54,370 --> 00:31:55,110
Speaker 4: Let's see.

553
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:57,890
Speaker 2: Equal opportunity for parasocial relationships.

554
00:31:57,910 --> 00:32:03,740
Speaker 4: We agree. If you want an Arnold Schwarzenegger-style male robot,

555
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,820
Speaker 4: they're coming and they're opening soon at a theater near you.

556
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,979
Speaker 4: And the actuators, the electrical motors, these things are going

557
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 4: to go and plug themselves into the grid to recharge

558
00:32:15,620 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 4: are incredibly dependent on AI and And this whole unbelievable

559
00:32:21,460 --> 00:32:25,010
Speaker 4: machine we're building that requires the medals that I'm talking

560
00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:25,950
Speaker 4: to you about right now.

561
00:32:26,750 --> 00:32:29,770
Speaker 3: I didn't expect this conversation to be the moment where

562
00:32:29,810 --> 00:32:32,210
Speaker 3: I sort of reveal one of my takes, but.

563
00:32:31,970 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: While we're here. It's not on sex robots, is it?

564
00:32:34,390 --> 00:32:36,910
Speaker 3: It's not on sex robots per se, but kind of

565
00:32:37,150 --> 00:32:39,390
Speaker 3: in the sense that I think that like the boomer

566
00:32:39,450 --> 00:32:43,060
Speaker 3: generation had to sort of get comfortable with the fact

567
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,340
Speaker 3: that their children might be gay. The millennial, the Gen

568
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: X generation had to get comfortable that they're... children might

569
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,660
Speaker 3: have trans partners. And the millennial generation is going to

570
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,530
Speaker 3: be the one that has to get comfortable when someone

571
00:32:57,570 --> 00:33:01,850
Speaker 3: brings back their AI robot or girlfriend and they're going

572
00:33:01,870 --> 00:33:03,820
Speaker 3: to get mad at their parents when they don't respect it.

573
00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:04,630
Speaker 1: Anyway, keep going.

574
00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: Thank you for that image, Joe. Back to Copper. Does

575
00:33:10,130 --> 00:33:13,820
Speaker 2: technology solve any of the mining constraints that we've had?

576
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,540
Speaker 2: Because there must have been technological developments in the industry

577
00:33:17,660 --> 00:33:19,940
Speaker 2: over the course of your career. And of course, we

578
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,900
Speaker 2: all know about the shale revolution and what happened there.

579
00:33:23,740 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: Do you see tech advancing in such a way that

580
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:27,980
Speaker 2: maybe production does increase?

581
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,980
Speaker 4: Well, now that we've unleashed AI, and I hope as

582
00:33:33,030 --> 00:33:39,490
Speaker 4: a card-carrying humanoid, that we can control it. That's an

583
00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:42,630
Speaker 4: open question. I want to tell you, I'm not a robot.

584
00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:48,570
Speaker 4: I'm a grandfather. You're asking some very, very important questions.

585
00:33:49,590 --> 00:33:54,790
Speaker 4: We cannot, as an industry, find and responsibly mine the

586
00:33:54,810 --> 00:34:01,020
Speaker 4: copper that we need for an energy transition with yesterday's technology.

587
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,430
Speaker 4: It's just impossible. We can't mine more copper in the

588
00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: next 18 years with yesterday's technology without generating the same

589
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 4: global warming gas that we were worried about in the

590
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,979
Speaker 4: first place. Because the energy requirement, I'm just talking about diesel,

591
00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:21,660
Speaker 4: the diesel price has skyrocketed. Let's talk about that. The

592
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:28,060
Speaker 4: straight-air moose remains closed largely today. Global hydrocarbon coming to

593
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 4: the market is down at least 10%, and the tertiary

594
00:34:30,739 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 4: implications are terrifying. sulfuric acid. About 25% of the copper

595
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:40,580
Speaker 4: that we recover in the world requires sulfuric acid to

596
00:34:40,620 --> 00:34:43,700
Speaker 4: leach it. And it comes out of the Middle East

597
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,530
Speaker 4: from natural gas in places like Qatar. So without that

598
00:34:47,910 --> 00:34:51,169
Speaker 4: sulfuric acid, we've seen prices in the last eight months

599
00:34:51,210 --> 00:34:54,830
Speaker 4: go from $ 150 a ton to well over $ 1, 000 a

600
00:34:55,250 --> 00:34:58,509
Speaker 4: ton for sulfuric acid. It's also used to make fertilizer

601
00:34:58,969 --> 00:35:02,930
Speaker 4: or food or to make semiconductors. It's Sulfuric acid is

602
00:35:02,989 --> 00:35:07,739
Speaker 4: the king of chemicals, but it's a funny byproduct of

603
00:35:07,780 --> 00:35:10,500
Speaker 4: the closure of the strait that the price of sulfuric

604
00:35:10,580 --> 00:35:14,660
Speaker 4: acid is skyrocketing. And in the Congo, we heap leach copper.

605
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,700
Speaker 4: About 25% of the production needs that very same sulfuric acid. Now,

606
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,130
Speaker 4: I'm fortunate in that our company built the largest copper

607
00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:27,470
Speaker 4: smelter on the African continent. It's the most modern copper

608
00:35:27,489 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 4: smelter built in the world, and we produce sulfuric acid

609
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,009
Speaker 4: as a byproduct of our copper mines. And we sell

610
00:35:34,070 --> 00:35:37,230
Speaker 4: that sulfuric acid to our brother copper miners in the

611
00:35:37,290 --> 00:35:40,590
Speaker 4: Congo at higher and higher prices. But there is a

612
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:44,350
Speaker 4: worldwide shortage of sulfuric acid. Russia and China have now

613
00:35:44,469 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 4: banned the export of sulfuric acid. And if we don't

614
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 4: have more of it, food prices are going to rise globally.

615
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 4: And we are seeing incipient inflation arising through the supply

616
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:01,780
Speaker 4: chain as our beautiful, integrated, just-in-time world economy breaks down

617
00:36:01,969 --> 00:36:05,750
Speaker 4: into a just in case economy. And now what do

618
00:36:05,790 --> 00:36:09,290
Speaker 4: I mean by just in case? Every country in the

619
00:36:09,350 --> 00:36:13,850
Speaker 4: world is looking to their own supply chain. Japan is

620
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,860
Speaker 4: building up its military. North and South Korea are building

621
00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 4: up their respective militaries. They don't like each other. Taiwan

622
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 4: is trying to turn into a big porcupine. And in fact,

623
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:31,090
Speaker 4: if Taiwan goes to Chinese control, TSMC They're a semiconductor company,

624
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:35,730
Speaker 4: and AMSL, who make the lithograph machines to make semiconductors,

625
00:36:35,810 --> 00:36:38,550
Speaker 4: are rigged to be exploded in the event of falling

626
00:36:38,590 --> 00:36:44,180
Speaker 4: into Chinese hands. China has a massive military buildup. India

627
00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:47,140
Speaker 4: and Pakistan fought a war a little over a year ago.

628
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,090
Speaker 4: Could have gone nuclear. They're both increasing their military budgets.

629
00:36:51,950 --> 00:36:55,650
Speaker 4: Europe is waking up and going to a 3% GDP

630
00:36:55,690 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 4: military budget, worried about Russian drones and unconventional warfare. And

631
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 4: you know the Trump administration is proposing a $ 1. 5 trillion

632
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: budget next year, up 50% for defense. And all of

633
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:15,149
Speaker 4: these modern systems are copper-intensive. And what happens as these

634
00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:19,130
Speaker 4: countries start to look at copper as a proxy on money?

635
00:37:19,710 --> 00:37:22,830
Speaker 4: Let's just explain that in the last year or two,

636
00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:25,219
Speaker 4: we've seen the dollar price of copper go from $ 4

637
00:37:25,180 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 4: to $ 6 or $ 7. But if you live in Japan,

638
00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 4: it was only 50, 60, 70 yen to the dollar.

639
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:37,350
Speaker 4: As it went to 160 yen to the dollar, it

640
00:37:37,390 --> 00:37:39,549
Speaker 4: just took so much more yen to buy copper. It

641
00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:43,190
Speaker 4: looks twice as expensive in Japan. And in fact, as

642
00:37:43,210 --> 00:37:48,860
Speaker 4: Scott Besson, our Treasury Secretary, is trying to prevent the

643
00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 4: yen from melting down. It's so good for the carry trade,

644
00:37:51,739 --> 00:37:58,180
Speaker 4: for all your hedge fund listeners. But if the yen collapses, Mrs. Watanabe...

645
00:37:58,250 --> 00:38:01,970
Speaker 4: might not buy our treasuries. And then rates go even higher,

646
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 4: and that wouldn't be good for the midterm elections or

647
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 4: the 2028 elections. So we've come to a point where

648
00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 4: push has come to shove, and we just haven't had

649
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,009
Speaker 4: enough capital or technology in the mining industry. So we're

650
00:38:16,030 --> 00:38:20,210
Speaker 4: getting back to your question. Can we use Yankee ingenuity

651
00:38:21,110 --> 00:38:23,430
Speaker 4: and innovate our way out of the fact that the

652
00:38:23,489 --> 00:38:28,210
Speaker 4: walls are crushing in on us? Indiana Jones and the

653
00:38:28,290 --> 00:38:29,210
Speaker 4: Temple of Doom.

654
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:32,489
Speaker 2: You definitely have a way with metaphors. Can I just

655
00:38:32,530 --> 00:38:32,870
Speaker 2: say that?

656
00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:36,310
Speaker 4: Well, no. Those of us in the mining industry scratch

657
00:38:36,350 --> 00:38:39,330
Speaker 4: our heads and wonder, don't these people on Wall Street

658
00:38:39,450 --> 00:38:42,410
Speaker 4: understand how hard it is to build a mine? The

659
00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:45,870
Speaker 4: Resolution Copper Project in Arizona has been trying to get

660
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:49,850
Speaker 4: a permit for 35 years. So the banana principle is

661
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:57,430
Speaker 4: build absolutely nothing anywhere near anybody. And the old adage was,

662
00:38:57,489 --> 00:39:00,390
Speaker 4: what's 50,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea? And

663
00:39:00,410 --> 00:39:03,529
Speaker 4: the answer was a good start. How does Japan work

664
00:39:03,570 --> 00:39:08,710
Speaker 4: with only 2,000 lawyers? We have millions. So we need

665
00:39:08,910 --> 00:39:12,330
Speaker 4: to re-perceive copper as a good. And in the Biden administration,

666
00:39:12,989 --> 00:39:16,009
Speaker 4: we finally got copper added to one of the lists

667
00:39:16,090 --> 00:39:19,290
Speaker 4: as a critical raw material. But the Democratic Party under

668
00:39:19,310 --> 00:39:23,850
Speaker 4: the Biden administration couldn't bring themselves to putting a good housekeeping,

669
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,549
Speaker 4: seal of approval on a mine. They were sort of

670
00:39:28,010 --> 00:39:30,260
Speaker 4: warming up to the idea that we need money. Otherwise,

671
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,580
Speaker 4: you have to burn coal or oil. And they were

672
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 4: moving in the right direction. I worked with Amos. He

673
00:39:36,820 --> 00:39:38,900
Speaker 4: was in charge of the energy transition, and they were

674
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 4: recognizing that solar is good, wind is good, but the

675
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,779
Speaker 4: wind doesn't blow all the time, the sun doesn't shine

676
00:39:45,820 --> 00:39:49,390
Speaker 4: all the time, you need grid-scale batteries all My obsession

677
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: is with geothermal power. And my obsession is with a

678
00:39:52,780 --> 00:39:56,020
Speaker 4: cleaner and greener way to liberate these metals. And the

679
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,739
Speaker 4: good news is that there is disruptive technology available that

680
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 4: we are working on. We've had the support of a

681
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 4: lot of major tech investors and a number of governments, Japanese, French,

682
00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 4: and the United States government. And we do think it

683
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,299
Speaker 4: is with great difficulty possible to innovate our way out

684
00:40:16,340 --> 00:40:19,180
Speaker 4: of this mess. but it's going to be very tough

685
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 4: and it's going to be a very closely fought thing.

686
00:40:38,989 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: You know, I recognize that you, you know, when we

687
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,060
Speaker 3: talk about your actual operational footprint, You're talking about Africa.

688
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,540
Speaker 1: We've also talked about South America.

689
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,140
Speaker 3: In this world now where everybody is trying to, we

690
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:56,490
Speaker 3: call it balkanization or resource nationalism or so forth. Earlier

691
00:40:56,530 --> 00:40:59,980
Speaker 3: this week, I know that's not where you're digging stuff

692
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 3: out of the ground, but where you have kind of

693
00:41:02,140 --> 00:41:05,310
Speaker 3: a base in Canada. There was news of the government

694
00:41:05,350 --> 00:41:10,270
Speaker 3: investing $ 405 million on a new highway project, build out

695
00:41:10,350 --> 00:41:14,690
Speaker 3: the transportation infrastructure in parts of the country, a country

696
00:41:14,730 --> 00:41:18,230
Speaker 3: that is endowed with quite a bit of important materials.

697
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,100
Speaker 3: Do you think there is a big opportunity there? The

698
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,700
Speaker 3: current government actually seems quite serious about resource investment in

699
00:41:27,739 --> 00:41:31,310
Speaker 3: a way that perhaps prior liberal governments governments in Canada

700
00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:34,210
Speaker 3: hadn't been. Are you optimistic or do you see a

701
00:41:34,410 --> 00:41:37,469
Speaker 3: prospect for there is a lot there if we invest

702
00:41:37,530 --> 00:41:39,790
Speaker 3: in the infrastructure to drive out and get it?

703
00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:44,180
Speaker 4: So I need you to understand that we are in

704
00:41:44,260 --> 00:41:50,660
Speaker 4: the low foothills, not the Rocky Mountains. We're in the

705
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:56,310
Speaker 4: low foothills of the Himalayas and the metal demand we

706
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:58,989
Speaker 4: face if we want to green the world economy, because

707
00:41:59,010 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 4: the Bloomberg organization has a lot of good work done

708
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:09,419
Speaker 4: on global ecological issues. And yet we face the incipient

709
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 4: and viral war that has broken out in Ukraine, in

710
00:42:14,180 --> 00:42:19,990
Speaker 4: the Middle East, Iran, Hormuz. And we have balkanized ourselves

711
00:42:20,070 --> 00:42:25,050
Speaker 4: into two giant opposing groups. We have Russia, China, North Korea,

712
00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:30,469
Speaker 4: and Iran closely cooperating. Iran now has hypersonic missiles, which,

713
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:33,830
Speaker 4: by the way, we don't have yet, that are steerable,

714
00:42:34,350 --> 00:42:40,149
Speaker 4: that are incredibly amazing that Iran can target missiles so

715
00:42:40,210 --> 00:42:44,060
Speaker 4: precisely with technology that must have come from Russia or China.

716
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,980
Speaker 4: And we have a countervailing pressure. And if you look

717
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,380
Speaker 4: at our president, he told Mr. Zelensky in Ukraine, I

718
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,130
Speaker 4: will help you if you give me critical raw materials.

719
00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:59,290
Speaker 4: It's become very mercantile. You never saw an American president say,

720
00:42:59,750 --> 00:43:02,770
Speaker 4: I will help you, only if we have critical raw materials.

721
00:43:03,370 --> 00:43:05,489
Speaker 4: If you'll give me five minutes, I want to talk

722
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:08,469
Speaker 4: to you about World War II and the current situation.

723
00:43:08,890 --> 00:43:14,590
Speaker 3: Tracy and I are both middle-aged dads who love.

724
00:43:12,830 --> 00:43:13,590
Speaker 2: World War II.

725
00:43:13,610 --> 00:43:17,049
Speaker 4: Most of your listeners are too young, so I really

726
00:43:17,090 --> 00:43:19,850
Speaker 4: need to explain this to you by analogy. The Japanese

727
00:43:19,890 --> 00:43:21,670
Speaker 4: thought it was a good idea for some reason to

728
00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:25,230
Speaker 4: bomb Pearl Harbor. They had an idea in their mind,

729
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:28,049
Speaker 4: and they did it, and Franklin D. Roosevelt, who was

730
00:43:28,090 --> 00:43:29,860
Speaker 4: a Democrat, was President of the United States, and he

731
00:43:29,890 --> 00:43:33,660
Speaker 4: was an isolationist. He did not want to get involved

732
00:43:33,739 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 4: in World War II, but in England, you had Chamberlain

733
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 4: and you had Churchill. And Churchill was obsessed with the Nazis,

734
00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:46,890
Speaker 4: and he came to Franklin D. Roosevelt begging for help.

735
00:43:48,010 --> 00:43:54,750
Speaker 4: And ultimately, in 1940-41, Churchill grudgingly said, got a message

736
00:43:54,810 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 4: from Roosevelt, I will lend you and I will lease

737
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,339
Speaker 4: you what you need for the war effort. I won't

738
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: give you anything for free, but I'll lend you coal,

739
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,259
Speaker 4: I'll lend you oil, I'll lend you copper, I'll lend

740
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 4: you tin, I'll send it over on my merchant shipping

741
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 4: with American boys, and later on you pay me back

742
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 4: with interest. Because he was an isolationist. He didn't want

743
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:18,140
Speaker 4: to get in the war. The Germans invented these incredible

744
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,009
Speaker 4: little U-boats, little needle submarines, and they started sinking our

745
00:44:22,050 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 4: merchant shipping, interrupting the supply chain, between the United States

746
00:44:27,140 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 4: and Great Britain during the war. Fortunately, a group of

747
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,500
Speaker 4: mathematicians in England broke the Enigma code. And had that

748
00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:41,700
Speaker 4: not happened, everybody in England today would be speaking German.

749
00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:45,700
Speaker 4: It was a very closely fought thing. The Germans were

750
00:44:45,739 --> 00:44:50,779
Speaker 4: working on heavy water reactors and nuclear weapons. Ultimately, we

751
00:44:50,860 --> 00:44:55,669
Speaker 4: dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. It was a uranium bomb,

752
00:44:55,710 --> 00:44:58,730
Speaker 4: and then our second bomb we dropped was a plutonium bomb.

753
00:44:58,810 --> 00:45:02,270
Speaker 4: It was a science experiment. Truman authorized a second bomb

754
00:45:02,290 --> 00:45:04,509
Speaker 4: to be dropped, and America came out on top of

755
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:10,220
Speaker 4: the world. Now, today, the supply chain is being interrupted,

756
00:45:10,780 --> 00:45:13,180
Speaker 4: and none of those commodities that we needed in World

757
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 4: War II are relevant. Without gallium, there is no NVIDIA,

758
00:45:18,219 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 4: no NVIDIA chips. Without scandium, rhenium, dysprosium, niobium, tantalum. These

759
00:45:24,860 --> 00:45:27,580
Speaker 4: are metals you don't even know about. We can't build

760
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:32,910
Speaker 4: this studio. We can't develop AI as fast as the Chinese.

761
00:45:33,570 --> 00:45:38,189
Speaker 4: And our hyperscalers are getting in debt. They're borrowing money

762
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:41,190
Speaker 4: to pour concrete and steel. Their heads are in the clouds,

763
00:45:41,210 --> 00:45:44,300
Speaker 4: but their feet are of clay. They're sitting on the earth.

764
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,860
Speaker 4: And there's a shortage of electrical capacity in our country

765
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,580
Speaker 4: to run these data centers. In fact, there's a backlash

766
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:54,089
Speaker 4: against data centers in the US because voters are seeing

767
00:45:54,110 --> 00:45:57,009
Speaker 4: the price of electricity go up. And so this is

768
00:45:57,070 --> 00:46:01,310
Speaker 4: a very strange, weird thing unfolding here, that China has

769
00:46:01,370 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 4: more than twice the electrical energy it needs to run

770
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,540
Speaker 4: its society, and we don't. You know, there was a

771
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 4: power failure here in New York. I think it was

772
00:46:11,380 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 4: the 1970s or 1980s. Our power here in New York

773
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,750
Speaker 4: comes from a hydropower in Quebec. It comes down from

774
00:46:17,770 --> 00:46:21,370
Speaker 4: hydroelectric dams that you could never build today. The A

775
00:46:21,410 --> 00:46:23,350
Speaker 4: bunch of hippies would lay in front of the bulldozers

776
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:26,150
Speaker 4: to prevent those lakes from being developed. But when the

777
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:27,509
Speaker 4: power went out here in New York, a lot of

778
00:46:27,550 --> 00:46:30,450
Speaker 4: babies got made. Nine months later, there was a big

779
00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:33,570
Speaker 4: bump of babies because there was nothing else to do.

780
00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 4: It was dark out. People stayed at home. They were

781
00:46:36,620 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 4: worried about looting. But today, if you want everything Elon's doing,

782
00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 4: if you want Grok, if you want AI, you want

783
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 4: humanoid robots, you want electric cars, you want microwave ovens

784
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,700
Speaker 4: and washing machines, you want to clean the environment, and

785
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,540
Speaker 4: you want to defend yourself against drones coming to get you,

786
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 4: you need ultra-sophisticated critical metals. And unfortunately, all of them

787
00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:07,980
Speaker 4: are developed by China. They're not found here in the

788
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,910
Speaker 4: United States. And the Chinese are very rationalized and in

789
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:16,029
Speaker 4: an intelligent way are saying, we're not going to sell

790
00:47:16,050 --> 00:47:18,509
Speaker 4: them to you unless we agree. In fact, If you're

791
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:21,550
Speaker 4: a U.S. manufacturer, you now have to give your plans

792
00:47:21,610 --> 00:47:25,370
Speaker 4: to the China Military Commission and say, why I want

793
00:47:25,450 --> 00:47:28,210
Speaker 4: one of these metals. And then they study it, they

794
00:47:28,250 --> 00:47:31,050
Speaker 4: look at your blueprints, and they can refuse the supply

795
00:47:31,090 --> 00:47:34,850
Speaker 4: of those metals for any reason or no reason. Now,

796
00:47:35,219 --> 00:47:39,020
Speaker 4: we're ahead as a society on chips, and they're ahead

797
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 4: on critical raw materials. And maybe there's some big trade

798
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 4: to be made here when Scott Besant negotiates, and in fact,

799
00:47:46,739 --> 00:47:49,310
Speaker 4: President Xi Jinping is is due in the United States,

800
00:47:49,350 --> 00:47:54,580
Speaker 4: September 24th, and this could go two ways. We could

801
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,260
Speaker 4: play the game with each other like on a level

802
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,500
Speaker 4: playing field with a game of rules like rugby, where

803
00:48:01,020 --> 00:48:03,620
Speaker 4: I break your collarbone and you break mine, but we

804
00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:06,410
Speaker 4: don't kill each other. Or this could spin out of

805
00:48:06,469 --> 00:48:10,770
Speaker 4: control because Chinese AI is coming. It's as good as ours.

806
00:48:11,370 --> 00:48:15,530
Speaker 4: It's 99% as good as ours, and they're going open source.

807
00:48:16,170 --> 00:48:18,830
Speaker 4: They're going to give it to American Enterprise for free

808
00:48:19,590 --> 00:48:23,610
Speaker 4: while the hyperscalers are betting the farm on astronomically large

809
00:48:24,070 --> 00:48:28,029
Speaker 4: capital investments. But they can't find the electricity in the

810
00:48:28,050 --> 00:48:31,580
Speaker 4: United States and the critical raw materials to develop these things.

811
00:48:31,620 --> 00:48:34,740
Speaker 4: And that's why I told Bloomberg recently as a miner,

812
00:48:35,219 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 4: I'm being approached by unconventional interest out of Silicon Valley.

813
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 4: And we're talking to the big hyperscalers who are saying,

814
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:43,420
Speaker 4: my God, we've got a problem now.

815
00:48:44,510 --> 00:48:46,770
Speaker 2: What exactly do they want to do here? Are they

816
00:48:46,810 --> 00:48:50,810
Speaker 2: talking about like investing equity or owning some sort of facility?

817
00:48:51,210 --> 00:48:53,730
Speaker 4: Well, you know, nobody that's in technology wants to get

818
00:48:53,770 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 4: their hands dirty mining because, you know, a tailings dam

819
00:48:58,380 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 4: can collapse. There could be an environmental issue in mining.

820
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 4: And we like to think that technology exists in a

821
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 4: parallel universe where we never get our hands dirty, but

822
00:49:07,980 --> 00:49:11,820
Speaker 4: it's the technology that's drawing all this electricity that is

823
00:49:11,890 --> 00:49:15,029
Speaker 4: generating global warming gas. In other words, It would be

824
00:49:15,090 --> 00:49:18,750
Speaker 4: neat if Microsoft could run all of their power off

825
00:49:18,770 --> 00:49:21,969
Speaker 4: of nuclear power plants. In fact, they went after Three

826
00:49:22,010 --> 00:49:25,259
Speaker 4: Mile Island to reopen it to provide the electricity for

827
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 4: these data centers. But actually, currently, they're going to natural gas,

828
00:49:30,460 --> 00:49:33,620
Speaker 4: and that's not really that green. And there's a seven-year

829
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,420
Speaker 4: wait to get a gas turbine to power a natural

830
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 4: gas power plant, ergo bloom energy. Their stock has gone

831
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 4: up because they have solid oxide fuel cells as an

832
00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:48,410
Speaker 4: alternative to generate electrical energy for a data center. A

833
00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:53,230
Speaker 4: data center needs uninterruptible power. It can't work on solar

834
00:49:53,250 --> 00:49:55,810
Speaker 4: because the sun doesn't shine all the time. It can't

835
00:49:55,850 --> 00:49:58,190
Speaker 4: work on wind. The wind doesn't blow all the time.

836
00:49:58,810 --> 00:50:01,430
Speaker 4: And so to build a solid oxide fuel cell, you

837
00:50:01,469 --> 00:50:05,170
Speaker 4: need scandium metal. You can't build it without it. Or

838
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:08,410
Speaker 4: to build a natural gas turbine, you need rhenium metal.

839
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 4: metal in the core of the turbine. And so we're

840
00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 4: really bumping up against critical materials to enable this kind

841
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,380
Speaker 4: of thing that we're doing today to exist at scale.

842
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 4: And the problem for us is that the response to

843
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,890
Speaker 4: this question has to be at the scale of the

844
00:50:25,930 --> 00:50:29,790
Speaker 4: American economy. If we're a little country like Honduras, we

845
00:50:29,830 --> 00:50:34,029
Speaker 4: wouldn't need very much, but we're big. And in order

846
00:50:34,050 --> 00:50:38,330
Speaker 4: to keep growing and going to AI, suddenly the miners

847
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 4: become the key, and we can't go on mining the

848
00:50:42,180 --> 00:50:44,260
Speaker 4: way we used to mine or we're going to destroy

849
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:48,450
Speaker 4: this planet. Instead of mining oil and gas and coal,

850
00:50:48,890 --> 00:50:51,370
Speaker 4: we're going to rip up every mountainside on the planet

851
00:50:51,850 --> 00:50:54,870
Speaker 4: trying to find enough copper to have an energy transition.

852
00:50:54,930 --> 00:51:00,049
Speaker 4: And so we are dependent on becoming technologically savvy and

853
00:51:00,070 --> 00:51:03,390
Speaker 4: a technological revolution. It's not going to be easy, but

854
00:51:03,660 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 4: I'm working on it and a lot of people I

855
00:51:05,620 --> 00:51:05,810
Speaker 4: know are.

856
00:51:05,820 --> 00:51:06,090
Speaker 1: Thank you.

857
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 3: Just real quickly, you mentioned the long wait for natural

858
00:51:10,180 --> 00:51:15,620
Speaker 3: gas turbines right now. For you, placing orders for equipment,

859
00:51:16,219 --> 00:51:19,370
Speaker 3: just the standard run-of-the-mill equipment, things that dig stuff out

860
00:51:19,410 --> 00:51:23,990
Speaker 3: of the ground, are there constraints these days the likes

861
00:51:24,030 --> 00:51:25,910
Speaker 3: you wouldn't have faced 10 years ago to buy the

862
00:51:25,930 --> 00:51:27,529
Speaker 3: same thing?

863
00:51:27,830 --> 00:51:31,629
Speaker 4: It's so bad that it's beyond your wildest imagination. We

864
00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:36,250
Speaker 4: went up to Mongolia in the Gobi Desert. And we

865
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:38,870
Speaker 4: discovered the Oyotogo at Copper and Gold Mine, which today

866
00:51:38,930 --> 00:51:41,770
Speaker 4: is ranking about number four in the world in copper

867
00:51:41,810 --> 00:51:44,270
Speaker 4: and has the world's second or third largest gold resource.

868
00:51:44,780 --> 00:51:46,980
Speaker 4: And we're in the Gobi Desert. And we invested about

869
00:51:46,980 --> 00:51:52,020
Speaker 4: $ 7 billion to discover this thing and to start to

870
00:51:52,060 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 4: build it. But we didn't have the water. We didn't

871
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,460
Speaker 4: have enough water around the mine. So we had to

872
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,780
Speaker 4: go out looking for water. And if we couldn't find

873
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:02,030
Speaker 4: the water, we would have had a $ 7 billion modern

874
00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:05,930
Speaker 4: art sculpture out there in the middle of the Gobi Desert. Today...

875
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 4: About $ 20 billion of capital has gone into that mine.

876
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:14,670
Speaker 4: Rio Tinto bought the company, and it's in production. And

877
00:52:15,090 --> 00:52:19,109
Speaker 4: it runs on imported electricity from China on a $ 100

878
00:52:18,750 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 4: million extension cord, and the Chinese can just unplug it.

879
00:52:23,489 --> 00:52:26,860
Speaker 4: But they sell all of that copper into the Chinese economy,

880
00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:30,819
Speaker 4: so it's in China's interest to allow that mine to operate. So,

881
00:52:30,940 --> 00:52:33,779
Speaker 4: you know, there's an example of going somewhere to find

882
00:52:33,820 --> 00:52:37,410
Speaker 4: something that's very energy-intensive. Now repeat your question.

883
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:41,810
Speaker 1: No, I just mean you want to buy a big shovel.

884
00:52:42,170 --> 00:52:45,230
Speaker 1: A big, like, what's the backlog for that?

885
00:52:45,330 --> 00:52:47,140
Speaker 4: I want to tell you about that mine. So when

886
00:52:47,180 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 4: we were building that mine, I built the phase one mine.

887
00:52:50,140 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 4: We had the world's largest electrical motors. They're like giant

888
00:52:53,460 --> 00:52:57,220
Speaker 4: washing machines. And there's rocks and steel balls. You tumble

889
00:52:57,260 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 4: the rocks. And slowly the rocks bash against each other

890
00:53:00,219 --> 00:53:02,710
Speaker 4: with these steel balls. And with a huge amount of

891
00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:05,390
Speaker 4: electrical energy, you grind it down to talcum powder. to

892
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:10,630
Speaker 4: liberate the copper. And the ring gear around those giant motors,

893
00:53:10,670 --> 00:53:14,299
Speaker 4: these motors are 40 feet in diameter approximately, it was

894
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 4: a four and a half year wait to get the

895
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 4: ring gear. In other words, you order the motor, four

896
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:21,750
Speaker 4: and a half years later, Siemens or ABB could build it.

897
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 4: Today it'd be an eight or 10 year wait, if ever.

898
00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:29,470
Speaker 4: And the hyperscalers are trying to get a gas turbine today,

899
00:53:30,330 --> 00:53:31,750
Speaker 4: because we have a lot of natural gas in the

900
00:53:31,770 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 4: United States. You're generating global warming gas for your AI,

901
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 4: but it's about a six or seven or eight year wait.

902
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,500
Speaker 4: And today, when you read the fine print in those

903
00:53:41,580 --> 00:53:45,250
Speaker 4: supply contracts, they say, well, there's a force majeure clause.

904
00:53:45,290 --> 00:53:47,890
Speaker 4: If we can't get one of the metals, we just

905
00:53:47,930 --> 00:53:49,850
Speaker 4: won't deliver it. Now, I'll give you an example. We

906
00:53:49,890 --> 00:53:53,310
Speaker 4: had a temporary problem at one of our copper mines

907
00:53:53,790 --> 00:53:58,390
Speaker 4: in the Congo. We had a flood due to a

908
00:53:58,489 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 4: seismic event. And we needed to pump the water out

909
00:54:01,780 --> 00:54:05,009
Speaker 4: of the mine. And, you know, the mine's about the

910
00:54:05,050 --> 00:54:08,029
Speaker 4: depth of the height of the Eiffel Tower or a little,

911
00:54:08,530 --> 00:54:11,910
Speaker 4: maybe two Eiffel Towers deep. And the pumps we needed

912
00:54:12,270 --> 00:54:17,900
Speaker 4: pump 1,300 liters per second, three times the height of

913
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:21,779
Speaker 4: the Eiffel Tower. So these are very sophisticated pumps. And

914
00:54:21,820 --> 00:54:24,859
Speaker 4: we called the Americans. They said, sorry, we can't build them.

915
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,460
Speaker 4: We called the Germans. No deal. We called all over

916
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 4: the planet. We said, why not? And they said, we

917
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,420
Speaker 4: can't get the samarium cobalt magnets for the electric motors

918
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,060
Speaker 4: because these pumps are like a rocket ship. They're almost

919
00:54:38,100 --> 00:54:43,650
Speaker 4: three meters in diameter. They're 80, 90 feet long. We

920
00:54:43,989 --> 00:54:47,149
Speaker 4: lowered them down these shafts. Only the Chinese could build

921
00:54:47,210 --> 00:54:51,670
Speaker 4: those pumps. Fortunately, the Chinese were buying our copper. And

922
00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:53,950
Speaker 4: so they built the pumps in 30 days, and we

923
00:54:53,969 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 4: got the mine pumped out. When we were flooded, we

924
00:54:56,940 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 4: were losing about $ 15 million a day in revenue. So

925
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 4: it wasn't a money question. It was just, who's going

926
00:55:02,300 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 4: to sell us a pump? So, you know, there's a

927
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,549
Speaker 4: great song by Bob Dylan. You know, you're both too

928
00:55:08,610 --> 00:55:11,270
Speaker 4: young to remember it. It was the first real rap song.

929
00:55:11,890 --> 00:55:15,910
Speaker 4: It was called Subterranean Homesick Blues. And you should play

930
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:19,710
Speaker 4: it because it's early rap. But there's two great lines

931
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:26,549
Speaker 4: in that song from Robert Zimmerman, a.k.a. Bob Dylan. One was,

932
00:55:27,210 --> 00:55:29,210
Speaker 4: you don't need a weatherman to know the way the

933
00:55:29,250 --> 00:55:33,130
Speaker 4: wind is blowing. And the final line in the song,

934
00:55:33,570 --> 00:55:37,630
Speaker 4: it ends with, the pump won't work because the vandals

935
00:55:37,690 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 4: took the handle. And what's happening now is that it's

936
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:48,379
Speaker 4: recognized that by withdrawing certain critical raw materials, you can

937
00:55:48,540 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 4: bring our economy to a halt. If you look at

938
00:55:51,140 --> 00:55:55,340
Speaker 4: a Boeing 747 on the runway, it's got four million parts.

939
00:55:56,130 --> 00:55:58,569
Speaker 4: But if one part is missing, it doesn't take off.

940
00:55:59,270 --> 00:56:04,009
Speaker 4: And so as our systems get more complex, we're in

941
00:56:04,030 --> 00:56:06,450
Speaker 4: a position to blackmail each other. And right now we

942
00:56:06,469 --> 00:56:08,109
Speaker 4: could tell China, I'll give you an example. I was

943
00:56:08,530 --> 00:56:12,910
Speaker 4: talking to our treasury secretary. He's an amazing person, Scott Besson.

944
00:56:13,590 --> 00:56:15,989
Speaker 4: And I was asking about our discussion with the Chinese.

945
00:56:16,030 --> 00:56:18,460
Speaker 4: And he said, I sat down with the Chinese and

946
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 4: they said, you bastards haven't delivered the Boeing, the General

947
00:56:24,420 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 4: Electric engines, For our Boeing airplanes, you promised us. And

948
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 4: he said, well, you haven't given us the critical metals.

949
00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 4: We need to build those engines. And so we're starting

950
00:56:34,300 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 4: to point a gun at each other's temple. And there's

951
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 4: this giant chess game going on. And we used to

952
00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 4: get this over crude oil. And now it's moving towards

953
00:56:45,219 --> 00:56:48,590
Speaker 4: a suite of critical metals that you don't talk about

954
00:56:48,850 --> 00:56:50,150
Speaker 4: enough on Odd Lots.

955
00:56:51,310 --> 00:56:53,089
Speaker 2: Well, we're fixing that now.

956
00:56:53,110 --> 00:56:53,310
Speaker 4: Yeah.

957
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,739
Speaker 2: So related to this, one of the reasons that copper

958
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 2: is falling this morning, and we're recording this on September 10th,

959
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 2: but there's a report out saying that the White House

960
00:57:04,460 --> 00:57:08,750
Speaker 2: hasn't made a decision yet on refined copper tariffs. Do

961
00:57:08,810 --> 00:57:12,750
Speaker 2: tariffs help boost production in the U.S. if the constraint is,

962
00:57:12,770 --> 00:57:15,670
Speaker 2: you know, geological and legal and bureaucracy?

963
00:57:16,330 --> 00:57:18,910
Speaker 4: So Ernie called me from Reuters yesterday and I told

964
00:57:18,930 --> 00:57:22,070
Speaker 4: him I didn't want to comment on it because I've

965
00:57:22,090 --> 00:57:24,250
Speaker 4: been wearing out my shoe leather going into the Biden

966
00:57:24,270 --> 00:57:29,230
Speaker 4: administration and Trump administration. But I could argue both sides

967
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:32,450
Speaker 4: of the proposition for you without telling you where I stand.

968
00:57:33,790 --> 00:57:34,990
Speaker 1: Personally.

969
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:38,870
Speaker 4: Smart. You know, in the old days, tariffs was the

970
00:57:38,950 --> 00:57:44,590
Speaker 4: principal way that governments collected revenue in the British Empire

971
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 4: when the sun never set on the British Empire and

972
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:53,380
Speaker 4: we had ships. the British crown authorized piracy. You know,

973
00:57:53,420 --> 00:57:55,380
Speaker 4: you're a privateer, you go out and kill somebody, and

974
00:57:55,660 --> 00:57:58,620
Speaker 4: as long as 12.5% went to the crown, or they

975
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 4: had tariffs. And we didn't invent income taxes until the

976
00:58:03,950 --> 00:58:08,110
Speaker 4: 1930s or so. And the problem is that if I

977
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:11,190
Speaker 4: go to the Congo, the grade of the copper there

978
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 4: is 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%. It's unbelievably rich. And there's

979
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,700
Speaker 4: 100 million people in the Congo. The median age, do

980
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 4: you know what the median age of a person is

981
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 4: in the Congo?

982
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:23,230
Speaker 2: 18.7.

983
00:58:23,220 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 4: So it's a very young population, Generation Z. And they

984
00:58:29,980 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 4: don't remember the days of the Civil War. They want

985
00:58:31,860 --> 00:58:34,980
Speaker 4: to work. And I can get a brilliant software engineer

986
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:40,090
Speaker 4: that's Congolese, who knows AI, or who can run automated

987
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:43,890
Speaker 4: equipment for $ 800 or $ 1, 000 a month. If I want

988
00:58:43,910 --> 00:58:47,740
Speaker 4: to mine copper in the United States, The United Steelworkers

989
00:58:47,780 --> 00:58:50,620
Speaker 4: of America want over $ 100 an hour to go underground.

990
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:54,930
Speaker 4: And we have environmental legislation and legal constraints that make

991
00:58:54,970 --> 00:58:57,630
Speaker 4: it much more expensive to mine in the United States.

992
00:58:58,370 --> 00:59:00,330
Speaker 4: But this is a paradigm. If you want to build

993
00:59:00,390 --> 00:59:02,750
Speaker 4: a nuclear power plant in the United States or you

994
00:59:02,770 --> 00:59:04,110
Speaker 4: want to put it in a data center in the

995
00:59:04,130 --> 00:59:08,370
Speaker 4: United States, it takes big, big money. So mining tended

996
00:59:08,410 --> 00:59:11,420
Speaker 4: to go around the world. where the resources are higher

997
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:17,180
Speaker 4: grade or lower cost. But what happened was the financial

998
00:59:17,260 --> 00:59:20,390
Speaker 4: system invented the net present value model. It was originally

999
00:59:20,430 --> 00:59:25,050
Speaker 4: made for oil and gas. The mining companies started NPV models.

1000
00:59:26,130 --> 00:59:28,370
Speaker 4: All the mining companies were valued on NPV. And it's

1001
00:59:28,410 --> 00:59:32,450
Speaker 4: a stupid idea because Mines cannot be modeled to NPV.

1002
00:59:32,810 --> 00:59:35,950
Speaker 4: Oil fields can, but not mines. Oil fields decline very

1003
00:59:36,030 --> 00:59:39,790
Speaker 4: fast if you don't put money into them. The energy

1004
00:59:39,810 --> 00:59:43,050
Speaker 4: in the reservoir depletes. But a mine with 100 years

1005
00:59:43,090 --> 00:59:45,990
Speaker 4: of reserves doesn't deplete like an oil field. So the

1006
00:59:46,070 --> 00:59:50,380
Speaker 4: NPV model suppressed the valuation of mining companies. In fact, today,

1007
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,340
Speaker 4: mining companies in the aggregate only have the value of

1008
00:59:54,380 --> 00:59:57,060
Speaker 4: less than 1% of the S & P 500, which

1009
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 4: is an all-time low for mining. Now, The Chinese saw

1010
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,060
Speaker 4: this and they said, my God, we got 1.3 billion

1011
01:00:04,100 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 4: people to feed forever. These stupid Americans are willing to

1012
01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:09,650
Speaker 4: sell all this. And they just came in over the

1013
01:00:09,710 --> 01:00:14,050
Speaker 4: top and they intelligently just bought the entire supply chain.

1014
01:00:14,550 --> 01:00:18,190
Speaker 4: They bought everything that wasn't bolted down. And so, you know,

1015
01:00:18,610 --> 01:00:22,710
Speaker 4: the problem is that the Chinese did something very intelligent

1016
01:00:23,130 --> 01:00:25,570
Speaker 4: for the Chinese people. And today we don't own these

1017
01:00:25,670 --> 01:00:28,570
Speaker 4: assets anymore because all of our money went into Netflix.

1018
01:00:31,340 --> 01:00:34,170
Speaker 4: You know, this really has to be, somebody has to

1019
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:37,330
Speaker 4: tell the truth about all this because basically we got

1020
01:00:37,390 --> 01:00:40,430
Speaker 4: caught with our pants down. Now, can I tell you

1021
01:00:40,450 --> 01:00:45,770
Speaker 4: about my interviews with American billionaires? So, you know, every

1022
01:00:45,810 --> 01:00:48,780
Speaker 4: time Bloomberg writes about me, they say billionaire Robert Friedland.

1023
01:00:48,820 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 4: I kind of get tired of that phrase. I've now

1024
01:00:52,420 --> 01:00:58,700
Speaker 4: interviewed 50 male and female billionaires and I've asked them,

1025
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 4: Do you kind of sit down and put your pants

1026
01:01:03,140 --> 01:01:05,260
Speaker 4: on one leg at a time? Or do you hold

1027
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:07,820
Speaker 4: your pants up in front of you and jump in

1028
01:01:08,180 --> 01:01:12,940
Speaker 4: with both legs simultaneously? And I haven't found one billionaire

1029
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 4: who claims that he or she jumps into their pants

1030
01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:19,580
Speaker 4: both legs at a time. And so this whole thing

1031
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,919
Speaker 4: is overrated. It's just paper money. What I'm worried about

1032
01:01:22,940 --> 01:01:28,390
Speaker 4: is my grandkids. I'm worried about the sustainability of How

1033
01:01:28,430 --> 01:01:33,500
Speaker 4: do we provide food and water and clean air to

1034
01:01:33,500 --> 01:01:37,780
Speaker 4: 8 billion inhabitants without warring groups? We used to fight

1035
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,980
Speaker 4: over crude oil. Most of the wars of the last

1036
01:01:40,020 --> 01:01:43,260
Speaker 4: century was over crude oil. And now we might start

1037
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,590
Speaker 4: fighting related to AI and the critical raw materials to

1038
01:01:47,630 --> 01:01:50,730
Speaker 4: support that AI. And that's why I think this should

1039
01:01:50,770 --> 01:01:54,090
Speaker 4: be a series. This should be like Breaking Bad, not

1040
01:01:54,110 --> 01:01:57,570
Speaker 4: a one-off movie where we peel this onion and and

1041
01:01:57,610 --> 01:02:00,890
Speaker 4: go deeper into the core of this issue. And I

1042
01:02:00,930 --> 01:02:02,550
Speaker 4: know a lot of your guests have been starting to

1043
01:02:02,590 --> 01:02:06,450
Speaker 4: talk about this, but this is a subject that is

1044
01:02:06,650 --> 01:02:09,530
Speaker 4: not gonna go away for the next 10 or 20 years.

1045
01:02:10,310 --> 01:02:12,850
Speaker 4: This is like a permanent subject. For example, I remember

1046
01:02:12,930 --> 01:02:18,050
Speaker 4: the 1987 crash. Rates were 12% and the stock market

1047
01:02:18,090 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 4: crashed and Volcker cut rates and the bond market went

1048
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 4: up for 35 years. Right now, this is not an

1049
01:02:25,220 --> 01:02:28,940
Speaker 4: ephemeral short-term thing. That article that came out on Reuters

1050
01:02:29,340 --> 01:02:31,820
Speaker 4: today that spooked the copper market a little bit is

1051
01:02:31,860 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 4: talking about tariffs. You ask me what I think about tariffs. Well,

1052
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 4: if you want to mine in the United States, if

1053
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 4: you want to be self-sufficient, tariffs are a great idea.

1054
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 4: Because if copper's six bucks, you put on a 30% tariff, 30%

1055
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,470
Speaker 4: of six bucks is $ 1. 80. You'd have $ 7. 80 copper. I

1056
01:02:51,510 --> 01:02:55,010
Speaker 4: could afford to hire a mine worker at the United

1057
01:02:55,050 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 4: States Workers of America and mining in the United States.

1058
01:02:57,940 --> 01:03:02,860
Speaker 4: It would make it more viable to do that here. However,

1059
01:03:03,820 --> 01:03:07,980
Speaker 4: the other side of the equation is it'll create domestic inflation.

1060
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 4: Rates will otherwise go up. We have the midterm elections coming.

1061
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,740
Speaker 4: So there's a political issue. Do you want to reindustrialize

1062
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:21,410
Speaker 4: America or do you not want to reindustrialize America? If

1063
01:03:21,450 --> 01:03:24,270
Speaker 4: you can't build a nuclear power plant, if you can't

1064
01:03:24,290 --> 01:03:27,980
Speaker 4: build a ship, you lose your sovereignty. Last year, America

1065
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 4: built about eight ships and China built a thousand. And

1066
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 4: so this is a very big question. And do you

1067
01:03:37,940 --> 01:03:40,820
Speaker 4: really want to replace the entire system of crude oil

1068
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,330
Speaker 4: and replace it with huge data centers run by clean

1069
01:03:44,370 --> 01:03:47,550
Speaker 4: energy or don't you? And I want to tell you,

1070
01:03:47,590 --> 01:03:51,190
Speaker 4: this country is well endowed by the creator in all

1071
01:03:51,250 --> 01:03:54,050
Speaker 4: manner of good things. We have water, we have amber

1072
01:03:54,090 --> 01:03:57,910
Speaker 4: waves of grain, 10% of the copper ever mined in

1073
01:03:57,950 --> 01:04:01,900
Speaker 4: the world came from the great state of Arizona. The

1074
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 4: California license plate used to say the golden state because

1075
01:04:06,140 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 4: we discovered gold in California. And the Arizona license plate

1076
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,390
Speaker 4: said the copper state. And people were proud of it.

1077
01:04:14,590 --> 01:04:17,210
Speaker 4: And listen to Bruce Springsteen. I mean, we used to

1078
01:04:17,250 --> 01:04:20,330
Speaker 4: do stuff in this country. We used to have blast

1079
01:04:20,370 --> 01:04:24,810
Speaker 4: furnaces and steel mills. And we lost all that because

1080
01:04:24,850 --> 01:04:28,130
Speaker 4: we thought we could outsource all this to China. And

1081
01:04:28,510 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 4: everything at Walmart said made in China, whether it's a

1082
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 4: microwave oven or a washing machine. And this is part

1083
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 4: of the big debate is if you want to reindustrialize America,

1084
01:04:37,780 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 4: let's do it in a better way. Let's try to

1085
01:04:39,780 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 4: figure out a more sustainable way to do it. But

1086
01:04:42,540 --> 01:04:45,900
Speaker 4: if we don't do it, we have lost our sovereignty.

1087
01:04:45,980 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 4: And I think that you're discovering this in Europe. And

1088
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 4: this is being discovered globally. And that's why we're beginning

1089
01:04:54,980 --> 01:04:58,700
Speaker 4: the age of hoarding. What's happening is that governments are

1090
01:04:58,740 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 4: buying copper metal as a proxy on money. And they're

1091
01:05:02,860 --> 01:05:07,470
Speaker 4: not reporting it. And nobody can calculate the supply-demand balance

1092
01:05:07,510 --> 01:05:09,810
Speaker 4: on any of these metals because why would you? Like,

1093
01:05:10,050 --> 01:05:13,290
Speaker 4: we're seeing the statistics that China's buying gold all of

1094
01:05:13,330 --> 01:05:16,750
Speaker 4: a sudden. And they're not buying our treasuries. They're selling

1095
01:05:16,810 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 4: our treasuries. And some people think Bitcoin is an alternative

1096
01:05:21,380 --> 01:05:28,220
Speaker 4: asset for the United States dollar. There's a great debasement

1097
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 4: trade starting. Hedge funds borrow the yen and rely on

1098
01:05:32,420 --> 01:05:34,500
Speaker 4: the yen to weaken, not to have to pay the

1099
01:05:34,540 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 4: money back. But we're at an inflection point now where

1100
01:05:38,900 --> 01:05:43,180
Speaker 4: this is all being exposed and everything is becoming naked

1101
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 4: and available to global scrutiny. And we're seeing that demand

1102
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,950
Speaker 4: has come against push. And we're getting into a more

1103
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:57,650
Speaker 4: sophisticated understanding that, do you want AI? To what good?

1104
01:05:58,150 --> 01:05:59,770
Speaker 4: Do you want to make all of our kids get

1105
01:05:59,830 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 4: brainwashed on TikTok or Facebook? Do you really want to

1106
01:06:04,620 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 4: get our kids? We're turning into two rival tribes here

1107
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 4: in the United States with the way social media is working.

1108
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,020
Speaker 4: And it's all driven by AI. And I can make

1109
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:19,150
Speaker 4: it even more dangerous. You know, I've got a grandson.

1110
01:06:19,330 --> 01:06:22,470
Speaker 4: You know, when I took my grandson's iPad away, he'd

1111
01:06:22,490 --> 01:06:27,390
Speaker 4: just freak out, right? You know? So, yeah, I'm a

1112
01:06:27,450 --> 01:06:28,210
Speaker 4: baby boomer.

1113
01:06:28,390 --> 01:06:29,170
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1114
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:30,910
Speaker 4: I admit it. You know, I admit it.

1115
01:06:31,940 --> 01:06:34,900
Speaker 3: Well, Robert, really looking forward to having you back tomorrow

1116
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: for part two and then the next day for part

1117
01:06:36,860 --> 01:06:39,660
Speaker 3: three of this discussion. But, no, really appreciate you coming

1118
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,290
Speaker 3: on Odd Lots. That was fantastic. We should talk again tomorrow.

1119
01:06:43,310 --> 01:06:44,770
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, to be continued.

1120
01:06:57,310 --> 01:06:59,430
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting to talk about sex robots.

1121
01:07:00,030 --> 01:07:01,090
Speaker 2: I was going to say.

1122
01:07:01,130 --> 01:07:05,430
Speaker 3: But when we're thinking about future sources of demand for copper.

1123
01:07:05,450 --> 01:07:06,010
Speaker 2: For energy.

1124
01:07:06,290 --> 01:07:06,850
Speaker 1: I suppose.

1125
01:07:07,110 --> 01:07:08,430
Speaker 3: I suppose that's one.

1126
01:07:08,630 --> 01:07:08,970
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1127
01:07:09,030 --> 01:07:10,830
Speaker 2: Got to plug in your significant other.

1128
01:07:10,850 --> 01:07:11,690
Speaker 1: You got to build it in. You got to plug

1129
01:07:11,710 --> 01:07:13,310
Speaker 1: it in. And you have to keep it plugged in.

1130
01:07:13,390 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, as far as baby boomer conversations go, that was...

1131
01:07:17,990 --> 01:07:18,470
Speaker 2: A fun one.

1132
01:07:18,650 --> 01:07:19,910
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

1133
01:07:20,490 --> 01:07:23,810
Speaker 2: I didn't hear a lot of solutions to the problem,

1134
01:07:23,850 --> 01:07:26,440
Speaker 2: which I guess is why we're talking about this at all.

1135
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,460
Speaker 3: There are obvious solutions, but I think before you can

1136
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,580
Speaker 3: even talk about solutions, you have to identify the problems.

1137
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 3: And I think one of the problems that we face

1138
01:07:37,420 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 3: is that at every step of the chain, there are constraints, right?

1139
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,090
Speaker 1: So let's say you make the decision to.

1140
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 3: We really want to make a big investment in a

1141
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 3: new copper mine somewhere.

1142
01:07:49,340 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: Well, there's a year's long wait to.

1143
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,660
Speaker 3: Get the equipment, to get the earth moving equipment or

1144
01:07:54,700 --> 01:07:57,570
Speaker 3: the engines that you need to do that. And the builders,

1145
01:07:57,740 --> 01:08:00,430
Speaker 3: someone says, OK, we want to build a lot more

1146
01:08:00,590 --> 01:08:02,590
Speaker 3: engines because there are people who want to build a

1147
01:08:02,630 --> 01:08:05,090
Speaker 3: lot more mines. Well, I guess then we need more.

1148
01:08:05,610 --> 01:08:09,330
Speaker 3: gallium or whatever critical resource it is. And so I

1149
01:08:09,390 --> 01:08:11,610
Speaker 3: think one of the things that's very helpful is to

1150
01:08:11,630 --> 01:08:13,970
Speaker 3: say like, oh, just build more mines, just build more memory.

1151
01:08:14,290 --> 01:08:17,030
Speaker 3: But in each leg of the chain, one level up,

1152
01:08:17,530 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 3: you know, higher up river, et cetera, they have their

1153
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 3: own backlog.

1154
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,620
Speaker 2: And it's still not clear that the market will actually

1155
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,580
Speaker 2: reward you for increasing production because you still have the

1156
01:08:25,620 --> 01:08:30,219
Speaker 2: volatility and super cycle supply problem. Yeah. Seems hard.

1157
01:08:30,750 --> 01:08:32,390
Speaker 1: I think he said plenty. It's like almost, I don't

1158
01:08:32,410 --> 01:08:33,879
Speaker 1: have anything to add to it, you know?

1159
01:08:34,100 --> 01:08:34,799
Speaker 4: Yeah. All right.

1160
01:08:34,820 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 2: Shall we leave it there?

1161
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there.

1162
01:08:36,380 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast.

1163
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me at Tracy Allaway.

1164
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart.

1165
01:08:45,180 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 3: Follow our producers, Kermen Rodriguez at Kermen Armand, Dashiell Bennett

1166
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,790
Speaker 3: at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano

1167
01:08:51,950 --> 01:08:54,870
Speaker 3: at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more Odd Lots content,

1168
01:08:54,910 --> 01:08:57,990
Speaker 3: go to bloomberg.com slash oddlots. We have a daily newsletter

1169
01:08:58,010 --> 01:09:00,220
Speaker 3: and all of our episodes. And you can share about

1170
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:05,050
Speaker 3: all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash OddLots.

1171
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:07,710
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like it

1172
01:09:07,790 --> 01:09:09,590
Speaker 2: when we talk about mining, then please leave us a

1173
01:09:09,689 --> 01:09:12,990
Speaker 2: positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if

1174
01:09:13,010 --> 01:09:15,770
Speaker 2: you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all

1175
01:09:15,790 --> 01:09:18,630
Speaker 2: of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do

1176
01:09:18,710 --> 01:09:21,450
Speaker 2: is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow

1177
01:09:21,490 --> 01:09:23,650
Speaker 2: the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

1178
01:09:39,580 --> 01:09:39,900
Speaker 4: So