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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking to a

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Speaker 1: lady whom we hugely admire and have sided so many

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Speaker 1: times on stuff Mom Never Told You. Yes, I'm super

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Speaker 1: excited for you guys to hear our conversation with rad

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Speaker 1: lady journalist and podcaster and friedman Um. Kristen reached out

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Speaker 1: to Anne when we were on our way out to

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Speaker 1: California earlier this year on the off chance that we

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Speaker 1: might be able to chat, and she said yes, And

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Speaker 1: it was one of those things where you kind of

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Speaker 1: like do a little happy dance, even if it's just

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Speaker 1: in your brain. Uh, we're in the gifts that you

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Speaker 1: send each other in excitement, right exactly. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: usually involving like champagne or Oprah or something. Um to

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Speaker 1: really illustrate the true depth of our excitement. Um. But

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Speaker 1: we're such a fan of Ants because she is such

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Speaker 1: a fantastic writer, and that would be enough in and

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Speaker 1: of itself, but she really tackles a lot of fascinating

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Speaker 1: and fantastic issues around women and gender and feminism and

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Speaker 1: she's really sort of a critical voice in today's media. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and we've got to talk about Call your Girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: her fantastic podcast that she co hosts with Amnatu. So, um,

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Speaker 1: they talk about pop culture, politics, feminism, this weekend, menstruation stuff.

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Speaker 1: I ever told you fans, if you're not already fans

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Speaker 1: of Call your Girlfriend, you will be and you should be. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And when you hear the conversation, I hope it feels

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Speaker 1: like you're in the room with us having some lady chat,

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Speaker 1: because I know when I really listened to the interview,

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Speaker 1: that's how it felt to me. And I was there

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Speaker 1: the first time. Um, but we sort of in our

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Speaker 1: in our talk with and we sort of give a

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Speaker 1: glimpse into what it's like to be women whose voices

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Speaker 1: are public, whether that means fielding uh, responses from listeners

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Speaker 1: that are on the positive or the negative end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum, or just grappling with that whole lady voice issue,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't apologize, don't say sorry, also stay away

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Speaker 1: from vocal fry and like, oh, just talking about the

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Speaker 1: whole rule book for women's voices. And since she's full

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Speaker 1: time freelance, we also wanted to talk to her about

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Speaker 1: her as a business and a brand and the issue

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Speaker 1: of self promotion, because this is something that also gets

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Speaker 1: really gendered really quickly, and something that women might not

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Speaker 1: feel as comfortable doing. Um but it's so crucial to

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Speaker 1: the way a lot of our digital media businesses work

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Speaker 1: these days. Um And. Speaking of which, for people who

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Speaker 1: aren't familiar with an Freedman, let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about who she is, because she doesn't give like a

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Speaker 1: full bio she is and Caroline, I felt like such

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Speaker 1: a creeper the other night when I was putting together

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Speaker 1: you know, this bio that we were about to share,

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Speaker 1: and was googling her and ended up on her Wikipedia page.

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Speaker 1: Um and and felt like a huge stalker. Also because

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Speaker 1: reading the Wikipedia page, I was a little flummix that

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Speaker 1: it left out certain things that I particularly enjoy about

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Speaker 1: her work, like lady swagger that she talks about, like

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Speaker 1: shine theory. All of these like cornerstones to me of

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Speaker 1: a Freedman's work. I was like, who who wrote this

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia page? Also, in its description um of her as

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Speaker 1: a feminist, it says that like n. Freeman has publicly

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Speaker 1: identified in speeches as a feminist, is very stilted. I'm

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Speaker 1: very suspicious of whoever wrote her Wikipedia page. But let's

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Speaker 1: give a better or introduction than than that Wikipedia page

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Speaker 1: of who who Anne is? In not her words. Well, uh,

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Speaker 1: she is a fellow j school grad yeah, and is

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Speaker 1: an Iowa native. She studied journalism at the University of

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Speaker 1: Missouri Columbia before becoming an editor at Feminist NG, which

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Speaker 1: is another resource that you and I have sided quite

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Speaker 1: a bit on the podcast. Yeah. Then she was in

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Speaker 1: d C working as a deputy editor at The American

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Speaker 1: Prospect and then hopped over to become the executive editor

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Speaker 1: of Good Magazine, which, Uh, that whole thing went down

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Speaker 1: in flames, not because of Anne, but because of some

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Speaker 1: shoddy leadership. And I highly recommend that you listen to

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Speaker 1: her interview on the She Does podcast because she talks

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Speaker 1: more about that experience and how it fired her up.

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Speaker 1: And she used that really negative experience for her and

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Speaker 1: the other editorial staffers who were laid off as something

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Speaker 1: really amazing. Um, And ever since then, she's been building

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Speaker 1: her freelance lady empire. And let's talk about what what

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Speaker 1: this empire consists of. We've got her pie chart. She's

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Speaker 1: the mistress of gifts. She's a podcast or extraordinaire. Can

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Speaker 1: we explain her pie charts briefly for those who haven't

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Speaker 1: seen our tumbler, Yes, please do so. I love her

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Speaker 1: pie charts. They're hilarious. I have frequently posted them to

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Speaker 1: our sminty tumbler Kristen Um. Basically, she takes like a

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Speaker 1: current event or just something she's thinking about and breaks

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Speaker 1: it down. For instance, she has one what are we

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Speaker 1: doing on this airplane? Trying to open a third bag

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Speaker 1: of pretzels in the least noisy and humiliating way possible,

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Speaker 1: crying at a Pixar movie. Just things like that. And

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Speaker 1: she's so funny and so smart, and I have such

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Speaker 1: a lady crush on her. And honestly, the day we

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Speaker 1: met her, she was wearing the most fantastic lipstick and

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Speaker 1: I just so badly wanted to ask her what kind

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Speaker 1: of lipstick it was, but we had just met. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know if it would be weird. We were talking

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Speaker 1: about feminism, which of course you can talk about lipstick

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Speaker 1: and a conversation about feminism, but Caroline, I was right

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Speaker 1: there with you. It was this incredible bold shade of

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Speaker 1: not read yeah instead of just asking her about it directly,

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Speaker 1: we're now talking about it on a podcast. Well here,

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Speaker 1: let me do it and make a non creepy transition

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Speaker 1: from the pie charts. We can just hop right over

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Speaker 1: cool our our lipstick admiration and mentioned that if you

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Speaker 1: want to see her pie charts every week, become a

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Speaker 1: premium subscriber to her newsletter, The Ann Friedman Weekly, which

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Speaker 1: I also highly recommend. I mean seriously, ants, ants got

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Speaker 1: at all? And that's why we were both excited, also

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Speaker 1: a little nervous slash naushs to talk to her in

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Speaker 1: this airbnb that we had rented in Silver Lake, which

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Speaker 1: was smaller than we thought it was going to be

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Speaker 1: and also under construction. So thank you for being a

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Speaker 1: good sport and and taking the time to talk to us,

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Speaker 1: because obviously she's a busy woman and it was just

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Speaker 1: a delight to pick her brain. So is it time

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Speaker 1: for us to share our convo with Anne? Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: like steel clapping with excitement. Let's roll it and the

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Speaker 1: two thinks that we started with a question that we

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Speaker 1: have shamelessly borrowed from another fabulous podcast you should listen to,

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Speaker 1: called Another round Um host Heaven and Tracy always asked

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Speaker 1: their guests what do you do and why? So we

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Speaker 1: asked and and this is what she had to say.

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Speaker 1: Both of those things have changed a lot over the years.

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Speaker 1: So right at this second, what do I do? So?

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Speaker 1: I write things and I report things. So I asked

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Speaker 1: questions and I try to answer questions, UM. And I

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Speaker 1: also have this podcast, not this particular podcast, a different

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Speaker 1: podcast UM where I think I usually UM, A lot

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Speaker 1: of the things I work on come from some point

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Speaker 1: of conflict or confusion within myself. It's like kind of

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Speaker 1: selfish where I'm like, I don't know if I feel

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Speaker 1: about that, or I don't know what we should do

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Speaker 1: about that, UM, or things that friends expressed to me.

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Speaker 1: They start from a pretty personal place. UM. But I

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Speaker 1: also think I have some broader goals and what I do,

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Speaker 1: which is UM. One of them is just kind of saying, like,

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Speaker 1: you're not crazy. The system is really rigged UM. Maybe

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Speaker 1: not totally against you, but like set up in a

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Speaker 1: certain way and trying to illuminate some of our inherited

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so I tried to I ask questions and

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Speaker 1: I answer questions, and I talk about questions. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of how I think about it. Right now, I have

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Speaker 1: to ask and I know you've answered this in your

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Speaker 1: fa ques on your website, but I have to ask

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Speaker 1: you about lady swagger and where it came from, and

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Speaker 1: what is behind the lady swagger ethos and how can

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Speaker 1: how can other ladies get some lady swagger? I think

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Speaker 1: it's an inherent trait and in most people have identified ladies.

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Speaker 1: I'll just say that, UM, I don't know, it's not

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Speaker 1: a real thing. It's kind of a made up thing,

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Speaker 1: I guess I UM. I wrote several years ago, like

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Speaker 1: probably a little more than five years ago, there were

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Speaker 1: a series of articles that were about men doing cool

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Speaker 1: stuff in media. There was there was there were some

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Speaker 1: about like dudes who had started out as bloggers growing

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Speaker 1: up and getting cool jobs. And then there were some

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Speaker 1: about prestigious magazines that all had young male editors they

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Speaker 1: referred to douditors. Um. And it just it just seemed

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Speaker 1: like at the time this was this was two thousand ten,

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Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, that there was just this like spate

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Speaker 1: of trend coverage of like men are doing things. Men

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Speaker 1: they got it going on like in media. It was

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Speaker 1: really annoying. So I wrote, I wrote some parody articles

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Speaker 1: that were sort of, you know, mocking that micro trend,

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Speaker 1: but also highlighting work that women were doing. And one

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Speaker 1: of the um one of the articles about men who

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Speaker 1: contained line where they described one of these duditors as

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Speaker 1: having a kind of low maintenance swagger and or something

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Speaker 1: like that. And so and I when I flipped, when

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Speaker 1: I reversed the genders to write the parody. I wrote

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Speaker 1: it as low maintenance lady swagger to describe a woman.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was me or another woman

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Speaker 1: I was writing about. UM, I don't really know how

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Speaker 1: it like how it sort of became. And then I

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Speaker 1: used it as the tagline on my tumbler for a

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Speaker 1: long time and then UM, I don't know. And then

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Speaker 1: and then when it became and I incorporated last year, um,

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Speaker 1: and there was this question of like, you know, am

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Speaker 1: I just an Friedman Ink or whatever? And or do

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Speaker 1: I want a different name? It's like I kind of

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Speaker 1: would like a credit card this says lady swagger, So

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Speaker 1: I have that. I did that. UM. I consulted a

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Speaker 1: lawyer friend and I was like, is there any reason

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Speaker 1: why I shouldn't have this as my escort name? She goes, well,

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Speaker 1: you'll probably only use it in tax dealings with the U. S. Government.

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Speaker 1: So if you could stand up in court and have

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Speaker 1: the US government address he was Lady Swagger, Inc. And

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Speaker 1: I was like in I was going out with the

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Speaker 1: paperwork before she was done, like just after her advice

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Speaker 1: had filled the g chat windows, like typing it on her.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's a very long answer to say that.

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Speaker 1: I kind of, Um, it was not born of like

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Speaker 1: me inventing a term. It was a response to something.

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Speaker 1: But the the term to me just kind of means that, like,

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Speaker 1: you are confident, but you're not, like, guess what, I'm

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Speaker 1: so confident, Like you know, you don't have to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, and you don't have to like make other

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Speaker 1: women feel like they're less put together than you to

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Speaker 1: sort of be aware that you have it going on.

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Speaker 1: I guess because of how I see it now, you said,

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Speaker 1: um at the beginning of your answer, like people who

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Speaker 1: identify as ladies, Like, how would you define a lady?

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Speaker 1: Especially these days? I think it's like if you if

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Speaker 1: you identify with that term, it's great. I mean I

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Speaker 1: know plenty of women who, like some of whom identify

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Speaker 1: on the more butsch end of the spectrum who would

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Speaker 1: be like, I'm definitely a woman, but I don't call

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Speaker 1: myself a lady. Um. I think it sort of has

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Speaker 1: like a fami identity connotation. Um, I also use that

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Speaker 1: identify us, so it's clear that I'm talking about any

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Speaker 1: person who might identify that way. Um. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if there's like a lady, I don't know a lady

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Speaker 1: ETOs because we've talked. We did a whole podcast Hey ladies,

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Speaker 1: like kind of the reclamation of the term and how

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Speaker 1: um for second way feminists, they were like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then it just made something different because a lot

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Speaker 1: of people woman sounds like their moms, and girl is

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Speaker 1: too young? Is clinical? Yeah, females clinical or you're talking

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Speaker 1: about like horses or dogs or something, and yeah, ladies

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Speaker 1: seems to be not not quite ironic because people really

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Speaker 1: do embrace it, but almost like yeah, it's just it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a like almost a term of endearment for

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Speaker 1: my my lady friends. Yeah, I mean I use it.

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Speaker 1: It's it Actually I like to use it as a

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Speaker 1: modifier instead of females, so instead of like female swag

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But I my grandma always has gals she's like,

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Speaker 1: how those gals are running around with? And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: which girls have run around with a lot of girls? Um?

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Speaker 1: I like gals a lot too, as as sort of

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Speaker 1: something that doesn't feel quite so formal as to say woman.

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Speaker 1: I also like women. I don't know, I don't really,

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Speaker 1: I don't just remain My mom is you know, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't want me to say, but she's in her late

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Speaker 1: sixties and she calls herself and all of her friends girls.

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Speaker 1: You know, why doesn't she want you to say? I

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Speaker 1: think it's like, I don't know, she's obviously like your

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Speaker 1: she's she's she's I don't know. It's hard to deny

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Speaker 1: you've been around a certain number of decades and you

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Speaker 1: have a children, right, Like why why does it matter

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Speaker 1: if you're like fifty nine or sixty four or like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It could be the South Georgia thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I didn't know how old my mom

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Speaker 1: was until um I was a teenager because I finally

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Speaker 1: like snuck into her purse and looked at her. She

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Speaker 1: wouldn't tell you so much. She wouldn't tell me at

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Speaker 1: least even still, and even still, she's really weird now

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Speaker 1: it's passed along to grandkids. Where she turned seventy last

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Speaker 1: year and she was like, do not tell your nieces

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Speaker 1: and nephew is it's like what you looked great for

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Speaker 1: seventy should be pumped. That's crazy. I would say that, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, kids are san notorious for judging you. But

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Speaker 1: my niece actually put me through the ring or questioning

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Speaker 1: me as to why I did not have children? How

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Speaker 1: old are you? What job do you have? And why

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Speaker 1: don't you have children? I was like, you are seven?

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Speaker 1: Do were you? Like, let's have a conversation. Why are

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Speaker 1: you interested in I have children? Do you have children?

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Speaker 1: Did she ask him about the job? First? She asked

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Speaker 1: if I was in school? She asked him I had

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Speaker 1: a job, and then she's just like going through the

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Speaker 1: life stages. You know, Yeah, she knew I wasn't married,

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Speaker 1: although I think she finds it problematic that I'm at

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Speaker 1: this stage and I do have a job, but I'm

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Speaker 1: not married yet. She's identity. That's basically the cover of

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Speaker 1: dozens of like Newsweek millennial trend stories. You know, she's

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Speaker 1: just really summed it up there with the confusion. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you're a real model for her. She's gonna get to

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Speaker 1: she's gonna get to an age where she has a

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Speaker 1: job and doesn't have kids and be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so weird. It's weird for other reasons, but not

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Speaker 1: that sure. Yeah, apparently my my nephews were worried about

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Speaker 1: me for a really long time before I got engaged.

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Speaker 1: Just my sister informed me. It was like, cool, how

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Speaker 1: are they? They were like ten, But yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: treasure wow from children. But back to you, and I've

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Speaker 1: never had a child questioned my empty womb. It's like

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Speaker 1: it makes you want to like, who where are they

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Speaker 1: absorbing like these messages? I mean everywhere, that's true. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so away from away from our empty wounds. We didn't

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about the aspect of self promotion

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Speaker 1: as like, you know, Lady swagger ink um kind of

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Speaker 1: how how you approach that and your feelings around it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you wrote the piece in New Republic about

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Speaker 1: self branding and how kind of like awkward and bizarre

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Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, I don't really know. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: guess part of it is, um that if I write

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Speaker 1: something that I'm proud of, I want people to read it.

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Speaker 1: It's on a basic level of like I worked hard

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Speaker 1: for this in the same way, UM, in the same

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Speaker 1: way I am interested in like hearing about my friend's

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Speaker 1: work and supporting it when I can. UM, I don't

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Speaker 1: really have I swear to God honestly, like a negative

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Speaker 1: flip side of that, where I'm like, oh, Caroline is

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Speaker 1: my friend, but she hasn't shared any of the last

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Speaker 1: five articles that you know. I don't really keep tabs

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Speaker 1: on it that way, but I guess I tend to

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Speaker 1: think that people who I know will want to know

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Speaker 1: when I'm proud of something that I've done. So that's

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Speaker 1: like on a basic level. UM. I also think that

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Speaker 1: as a freelancer, if you are not talking about the

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Speaker 1: work that you're doing, it makes it harder to get

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Speaker 1: more work. So you know, there is I guess you

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Speaker 1: can call it self promotion, but part of it is

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Speaker 1: also because my work is scattered across so many different outlets,

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Speaker 1: I'm sort of the one place you can get at all.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know that if I want an editor

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Speaker 1: to know what I'm all about and to assign me

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Speaker 1: great work, I want them to be able to come

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Speaker 1: to a website where I've cataloged all of it or

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Speaker 1: come to my Twitter feed and see what I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about lately, and um, and that's that's different than just

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Speaker 1: me fire hosing what I've made out into the world.

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Speaker 1: It's also me you know, tweeting about things I'm thinking about,

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Speaker 1: or or using using my website to high highlight other

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Speaker 1: work that I'm doing. And so I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: guess I think of it as like just being a

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Speaker 1: part of public spaces on the Internet. And some of

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Speaker 1: that is sharing what I've made, and some of that's

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Speaker 1: sharing what other people have made, and some of that

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Speaker 1: is a lot of that is consuming what other people

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Speaker 1: have made. It's not I don't know, and and um,

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Speaker 1: some of the more concrete questions about that that I

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Speaker 1: wrote about in the article for The New Republic, which

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Speaker 1: um are which sort of get into details of how

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Speaker 1: you talk about yourself. You know, it's stuff that is like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: if I incorporate as Lady Swagger, am I going to

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Speaker 1: make it an email address and make it a public

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Speaker 1: thing or is it just in the documents in hidden way?

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Speaker 1: And you know the answer to that is like, I

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Speaker 1: think it's fun. So it's you know, semi public. I

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Speaker 1: guess it's like I I bought the domain for sure,

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Speaker 1: because like, don't ever create a corporation and don't buy

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Speaker 1: the domain name. There's anything. My friend a Mina has

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Speaker 1: taught me, always buy the domain always. UM, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It gets a little thornier when you

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Speaker 1: start to think about questions of like what what am

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Speaker 1: Who am I as a brand versus who am I

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Speaker 1: as a human? You're sitting in the room with um,

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Speaker 1: and frankly I don't usually go that far down that path.

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Speaker 1: It's but but on questions of pure promotion, I think

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Speaker 1: usually people are overthinking it or being super weird if

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Speaker 1: they think it's only promotion. It's like usually just being

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Speaker 1: on social media and in a holistic way. So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like there's not much conflict for you between the

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Speaker 1: line of authenticity and the fakeer of just being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like almost like a used car sales and

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Speaker 1: just like throwing my work out there. I don't ever

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Speaker 1: feel like that. And if I write things that I'm

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Speaker 1: not that excited about, I don't push them very hard

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Speaker 1: or I don't share them. You know, they're sort of

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Speaker 1: the easy, like whatever publication I write it for, we'll

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Speaker 1: tweet it and then I can just retweet it and

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Speaker 1: go about my day. I don't really make an extra

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Speaker 1: effort to put it out into the world. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I there are definitely things that I mean, I'm not like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: time to get back on the self promotion treadmill, like

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Speaker 1: every more you know it's it doesn't it doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like that. And also I like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I my my column this week, for example, UM is

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Speaker 1: something I've been thinking about writing for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and so when I finally wrote it, I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: hearing what other people are saying about it. And there

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Speaker 1: there have been a couple of points where I'm just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I wish I could go back and revise and include

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Speaker 1: these like three great things that people said about it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I wouldn't have that feedback if I

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Speaker 1: were not, you know, pushing it up into the world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, like the New York magazine does some

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Speaker 1: of that, but if I were not interacting with the

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Speaker 1: people who were talking about it, I would miss out

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Speaker 1: on this whole dimension of the topic. So it's the

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Speaker 1: topic I wrote about, this idea of UM finding yourself

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Speaker 1: in a in a role at work, whether it's because

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Speaker 1: it's part of your explicit job description, or whether it's

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Speaker 1: because that's just kind of like where you end up

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Speaker 1: falling in the office ecosystem of being the person who

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Speaker 1: always says no to everything. So like you're in a

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Speaker 1: meeting and someone's like, yeah, it wouldn't it be great

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Speaker 1: if we just like set up a carnival outside and

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Speaker 1: started selling tickets to that, and that's how we plugged

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Speaker 1: our budget deficit. And you know, you're the one who's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're owned for that, and like

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Speaker 1: you know, like you find yourself, you know, because of

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Speaker 1: kind of yeah, but I don't, I don't know. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of about how like, um, how that role is

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Speaker 1: sort of invisible administrative work that often gets assigned to

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Speaker 1: women in part because of, um, the actual roles they

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Speaker 1: tend to occupy, but also sometimes because like you know,

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Speaker 1: you could be sitting That definitely happened to me where

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Speaker 1: I've been the only woman in a room with a

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Speaker 1: lot of men who are presumably coequal to me in

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Speaker 1: terms of the office or chart, but I'm the one

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Speaker 1: taking notes from the meeting. And then when when you're

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Speaker 1: the one taking notes a friend of mine pointing this out.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're the one who's like, oh, this doesn't

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Speaker 1: head up or or whatever. And so you're the one

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Speaker 1: who's sort of like, hey, hey, guys, actually this is

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Speaker 1: brilliant idea that you're all really excited about. Right now,

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna work for this reason. And then it's

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Speaker 1: just want want anyway. So um and that can be

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Speaker 1: kind of exhausting saying saying no a lot. There Historically

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways women are forced or have been

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Speaker 1: expected to say no in like the sexual realm, or

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Speaker 1: like moderating what they're supposed to be eating, or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like just think about everything a woman's magazine

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Speaker 1: has ever told you about anything like classically. Um and

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Speaker 1: and I was just talking about how that happens at work,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, and so there there have been comments

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Speaker 1: for women who are you know, have found themselves in

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Speaker 1: that role. Someone said, yeah, it's like Wendy and the

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Speaker 1: Lost Boys, you know, all over again. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think to mention Peter Pan and the

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Speaker 1: Lost Boys. You're so right, like Peter Pan is like

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Speaker 1: obviously a trope of young male Brooklyn Nights. But I

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Speaker 1: hadn't really thought about, Like yeah, it's like totally Wendy

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Speaker 1: and the Lost Boys. So just like little gems like

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Speaker 1: that where I'm like, okay, well, I mean I might

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Speaker 1: not revisit this topic next week, but if I ever

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Speaker 1: do revisit it, that's just like the perfect little metaphor

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Speaker 1: so that, yeah, I mean, how can how or should

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Speaker 1: like how can women escape those sort of office expectations

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Speaker 1: like can they? Should they? Okay, well, here's something else

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Speaker 1: someone said to me, which I did not even think

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Speaker 1: to include in the article. Is like numbers, you know,

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Speaker 1: if there are if there are more than, um, you know,

427
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: one woman in that meeting, chances are that there's not

428
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: one person always expected to take notes, and that the

429
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: person is always you because you're the woman. You know.

430
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: Diversity is something that can can help with us a

431
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 1: little bit. Um. I also think that like the way

432
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: um right now, a lot of roles are assigned in

433
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: the office um due to just like ingrain sexism, men

434
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: have a lot more freedom to be like, you know,

435
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: I have the year of the CEO, like let me

436
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: hit you with this crazy idea or whatever. You know.

437
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean, like a lot of the way networks work

438
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: right now, disadvantage women, um, and so having stronger networks

439
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: of women first of all, like women truly supporting each

440
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: other at work, um, but also just having in sheer numbers,

441
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: more women in leadership roles. I mean, the one of

442
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: the points that I made here is like, yeah, yeah,

443
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: we know that like of you know, secretarial and administrative

444
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: assistant positions them or women that's like Department of Women,

445
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 1: that's Department of Labor Statistics. That's not like feminist, like

446
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: you know, whatever perception. But but one of the things

447
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: about this being the no woman is that they're frequently

448
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: higher on in sort of a leadership role, which is

449
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: something that I experienced. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm

450
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: not the secretary, but I'm still the one. And so

451
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: I don't even remember what the question was and why

452
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: I was talking about the distinction, but I do think

453
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: that there's something about diversity and strengthen numbers and just

454
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: general women's advancement helping to make this less of a phenomenon. Yeah,

455
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: I was a question of like women resisting that role

456
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: doing it, but it's an important role. I mean, that's

457
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: what I couldn't decide either. You know, it's obviously a

458
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: valuable role, like we don't want to set up a

459
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: card val outside like that would be a waste of

460
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: our budget, like we couldn't get the permits whatever. You

461
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: know what I mean, It's like someone has to be

462
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: the one to say it, and ultimately those rules are

463
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: really valuable. It's just a question of do you feel

464
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: like you know it always false to you to be

465
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: the one to call that out. I mean, it's tough.

466
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: I don't I don't have the answer. Do you feel

467
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: comfortable saying guys, this is not gonna work? And do

468
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: other people respect you for it? And if they don't,

469
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: is it because of your gender or is it just

470
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: because they just want to put up a freaking card vrole?

471
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: Or do you say, guys, this is not going to

472
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: work because you know you're going to be stuck like

473
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: cleaning up after it when it doesn't. You know what

474
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: I mean? I think that that was something that I

475
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 1: ran up against um in my last job, is that

476
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: I had I had bosses who would be like, yeah,

477
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: it wouldn't it be awesome? And then yeah, go make

478
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: it happen, and I was my my choices were tell

479
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: them in the moment, no, it can't happen. For these

480
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: really you know, not fun reasons, or you know, try

481
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: to make it happen on air, quoting you can't see

482
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: me on the podcast, try to make it happen and

483
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: then fail through action and then be like, well, you know,

484
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 1: either way, I'm wasting my time and it's annoying and

485
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I think that the fundamental

486
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: problem is probably just the male ego, and like we're

487
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: all working to solve that every day. So women are

488
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: working very hard to solve some that are also working.

489
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: Some men are also working absolutely Like I think we

490
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: just send up the podcast. But speaking of women in

491
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: the office and also at large, UM, we wanted to

492
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: talk to you about this whole concept of the female

493
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: voice because you have been interviewed a lot and talked

494
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: a lot about this whole trend of women being policed

495
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: for their speech of um, you know, stop saying sorry,

496
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: stop saying just you know, the whole um. Google extension

497
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: that will empower your email and curious to know your

498
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: thoughts on that because that's also something that you've talked

499
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: about on the podcast too. Yeah, we get a lot

500
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: of mail from people who say, you know, I take

501
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: you so much more seriously, if you didn't say like

502
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: every third word. Do you guys get that mail too?

503
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: Not as much, but um we'll we'll get it with

504
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: what you used to get. She used to get letters

505
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: like right when I came on the podcast using the

506
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: word like of course um uh. Used to get letters

507
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: from people saying you've got to stop saying if you will.

508
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. It was the weirdest thing because that's not

509
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: even a traditional but we do. We do get dinged

510
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: for like minus um as I went through like um

511
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: just like an exercise and almost masochism, and went to

512
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: some a bunch of iTunes comments and I don't do that.

513
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: Don't do that. It's for the purpose of an essay

514
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: I was writing, and so I was looking at them

515
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: from like I wanted the very worst, and a lot

516
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: of them were complaining about these these accents, fake accents

517
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: that I will slip into okay for the records. Great voices,

518
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: and I as her cred as love then and her

519
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: friend in life. I love her voices. Yeah, so that

520
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: but that's like that's my um my life. But it's

521
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: long anyway, short answer, real long. Yes, we get our

522
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: voices right, So my view on all kinds of verbal ticks,

523
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: whether they're used by men or women, is that it's

524
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: great to pay attention to how you talk and why.

525
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes when I'm nervous, I use more

526
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: of them. I mean, I'm a human being. We all

527
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: tend to do that, and so it can be nice

528
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: to be aware of that is a thing. Oh I'm

529
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: saying like a lot. Maybe it means I'm nervous right

530
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: now or you know, and just self on a level

531
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: of self awareness. I don't think it's bad to think

532
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: about the filler words you use and the way to speak. UM.

533
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: What I do have a problem with is the implication

534
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: that if women just strip certain phrases or certain constructions

535
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: or certain words from their emails, that they will magically

536
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: be taken more seriously um for the content of what

537
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: they're saying, And that I think is really misguided. It's

538
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: like it's sort of like saying every woman has done

539
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: the thing where you're like, I would not wear that

540
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: to the office, or I would not wear that to

541
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: a professional event. You know, everybody judges, um, but you know,

542
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: and where when would you argue that, Like if you

543
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: were dressed in a certain way, you shouldn't be heard

544
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: or you shouldn't be taken to you know what I mean,

545
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: there's sort of and so I think that the same

546
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: thing kind of applies, Like think about you know, how

547
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: you are perceived for how you're talking, Like consider it.

548
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: Maybe you don't want to use the same um little

549
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: verbal crutch that you that you tend to fall into

550
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: just for clarity of communication. But you know what, like

551
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: you get nervous, you also want to express yourself authentically

552
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: the way you talk to your friends. And I think

553
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: that a lot of the advice on this front is

554
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: sort of adding to a long list of women that

555
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: if things women are already asked to consider when they

556
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: present themselves to the world. And it would probably be

557
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: a lot better if we were all just a little

558
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: calmer about that, and people who are on the listening

559
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: end of it mediated their own biases about what it

560
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: says about the intelligence of women who are speaking. So

561
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: the speaker maybe focus on confidence and feeling comfortable, yeah,

562
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: or just take a breath in a pause. I mean,

563
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: I think, um, I definitely say like quite a bit.

564
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: I say it more often when I'm trying to figure

565
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: out exactly how I feel about something. Or what I

566
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: want to say about it, um, And so for me, it's, oh, yeah,

567
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: maybe I should just slow down a little. I'm a

568
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: fairly fast talker. Maybe I should just pause right now

569
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: instead of trying to like ramble through it um. Which

570
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that I don't think you should take me seriously.

571
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: If if I decided to say like a bunch of

572
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: times instead, I don't know. That's yeah. So if you're

573
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: if you're if you're the speaker, maybe just notice when

574
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: you're doing it and decide if it really is a

575
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: problem or if it's someone else's problem. Chances are it

576
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: someone else's problem. And if you're a listener, um, get

577
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: over it. Yeah I was. I was fist pumping in

578
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: my bathroom when I was listening to Call Your Girlfriend episode.

579
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: When you all read the letter from the Australian Femine,

580
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: it's basically saying like, I love you guys even more

581
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: if or you're undercutting your authority with all of the

582
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: verbal um ad libs and Amina like having none of it.

583
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: And I was like, she's saying everything that I wish

584
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: to care like could say sometimes because and it was

585
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: great to hear because yeah, well it's really it's actually

586
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: really difficult because you know, for example, I don't think

587
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: that that one listener, I mean she's a stand in

588
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 1: for a lot of mail that we get, And so

589
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: I do feel bad sometimes. Or people will tweet things

590
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: at us that will just make us. I rate, like

591
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: you know where where where you don't really want to

592
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: lay into one person because I understand that you are

593
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: one person you don't deserve. We have a bigger platform

594
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: than you do, like in this situation, her sending us

595
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: a letter and us calling it out on the air

596
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: like we're the big fish, right. But um, when it

597
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: becomes a pattern, or when you know, when it's sort

598
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: of a perfect distillation of a lot of the mail

599
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: you get or a lot of the things people imply

600
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: about would make your podcast better, Um, that's when it

601
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: just it does hit a little bit of a tipping

602
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: point sometimes. So I would also encourage people to just

603
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: think about how you must sound, whoever you are, male

604
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: or female, old or young, how you must sound talking

605
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: to your friends. And you shouldn't necessarily expect like NPR

606
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: style PBS delivery just because it's a podcast. Well, and

607
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: I think that people I mean to be totally honest

608
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: The thing that has made our podcast well received is

609
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: the fact that it is conversational in a real way.

610
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: It's not like, hey, sister, how is it going? Like

611
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, there's not it's obviously we

612
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: just talked to each other the way we talked to

613
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: each other, and so you know, um, and this is

614
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: what I'm sort of getting at. Yeah, it makes sense

615
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: to think about how we're using words, because we do

616
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: want to express ourselves clearly on the podcast, but not

617
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: at the expense of the conversational tone that makes it great,

618
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: an authenticity and how you actually would want to each other. Yeah. Absolutely.

619
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: And the truth is, I don't think women sound stupid

620
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: when they say like, so I don't feel bad about

621
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: saying it. Yeah, And I mean truth is, I've heard

622
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: plenty of guys say it. This is not completely It's

623
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: not as if like is the sole providence of women.

624
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: Women just exist in the world of like. Yeah. And

625
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: I interviewed a bunch of linguists for the article that

626
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: I wrote about this, and they were saying that, yeah,

627
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: men have just as many like ticks, used just as

628
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: many filler words as women tend to. It is honestly

629
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: only advice levied at women that that is, it's like

630
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: this false hope for being taken more seriously, if you

631
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: can only stop saying like if you could only like,

632
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, wear a shirt that was slightly higher cut

633
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: or whatever, if you could only like, you know, drink

634
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: with the dudes that you know, whatever. I don't know

635
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: what it is like whatever dumb thing that people say

636
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: is not sexism that is keeping women down there, you know,

637
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: it's just like another one on the laundry list. Yeah, well,

638
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: speaking of calling your girlfriend to take it back a

639
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: couple of steps. Um, we had read that it sort

640
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: of started a little bit on a lark at the

641
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: suggestion of your producer and you and I mean it

642
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: also wanting to like experiment with audio formats, and so

643
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: I was kind of wondering why why you even wanted

644
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: to experiment to begin with. Um, I don't know, we're

645
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: both we both just I mean, this is gonna sound

646
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: this is so, this is so cheesy. We're both like

647
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: trying new things. But for real though, so our our producer,

648
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: Gina is is really brilliant, and at a certain point,

649
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: when a smart person who is really skilled in a

650
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: certain area says, I think you guys would be good

651
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: at this, and I want to work with you. You

652
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: have to be a fool to just keep saying no um.

653
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: And so I think once we decided what we wanted

654
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: to call it, then it was over. We kind of

655
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: we kind of sort of talked about it for a while,

656
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: and she she poked us about it and suggested suggested

657
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: it for a while. But when we decided that we

658
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: wanted to call it that, and we were like, oh yeah,

659
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: and then it could just be a call between us.

660
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: We wouldn't even have to like, you know, set it up,

661
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: set up a format. We could just call each other.

662
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: That's when we're like, okay, we can actually do this. Well,

663
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: what have you guys? I'm really interested to know what

664
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: you guys have learned about each other, maybe that you

665
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't have figured out if you guys were just having

666
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: a drink somewhere or a cup of coffee somewhere, Like

667
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: you specifically uncovered something about your friend because you have

668
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: to have these conversations in this particular format. Yeah, it's weird.

669
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: It's it's actually it's not that it's deepened our friendship

670
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: because if you listen, we don't really get personal I mean,

671
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: we are, we are personable, but you know, we don't

672
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: really talk about you don't really know who each of

673
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: us is sleeping with or like whether what's going on

674
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: in terms of like are we happy, are we sad?

675
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: Is it a tough time? Is it a fun time

676
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: for us? You know that that stuff is like only

677
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: really the surface level personal details make it out. So

678
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that, like, um, the content of what

679
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: we talk about has led us to know each other better.

680
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: I do think that the thing is, and I'm sure

681
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: you guys have experienced this too, is we're business partners now,

682
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: you know, I mean we definitely it is. It is.

683
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: It is you know, financially speaking, not really business yet,

684
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: but in terms of you know, we we have a

685
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: regular thing that we're committed to doing together, and they're

686
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: like increasing amounts of responsibility to have to to do

687
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: with that. And so I think that I'm learning about

688
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: both Amina and Gina as like coworkers, and you know what,

689
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: they're great coworkers. If everyone I've ever worked with was

690
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: as great a coworker as they are, we are like

691
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: you know, our Google Dot game is like so tight

692
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: and and you know, and we are all really on

693
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: top of it. I think that I've done a lot

694
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: of passion side projects where it can be hard to

695
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: wrangle everyone involved, and um, and we're just like, we're there.

696
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: If we make a meeting, we're there. If someone says

697
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: that they're going to follow up on something, of the time,

698
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: they follow up on it and make it happen. And

699
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: so I think that a lot of what I've learned

700
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: is just this this not so much as a friend,

701
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: but like this whole other dimension of people who I

702
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: already really liked and respected, and that's been cool. I'm wondering, um,

703
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: since you all here from so many air quotes, baby feminists,

704
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: if there are um certain themes to the questions and

705
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: quandaries that they ask you all, or just like topics

706
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: that especially resume, A lot of them are based on

707
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: things that we've already talked about on the show, So

708
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, it'll be someone has a workplace dilemma or um,

709
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: you know, we get questions about friendship a lot. I

710
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: had a falling out with a friend of mine, or

711
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: we're not as close as we used to be, or

712
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: I just moved somewhere. How do I make new friends?

713
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of them kind of deal

714
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: with friendship as a topic. But there's there's a strain.

715
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: There's sort of a strain of the questions we get

716
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: that are just like Ann and Amina fix my life,

717
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 1: like like a'm very like like own network show, Time

718
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: of Time situation um where no, we get a lot

719
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: and and um that are like I can sort of

720
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: give you the outlines, like, hey Anna, Amina, I've been

721
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: listening to the show for a while. It seems weird

722
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: to write you this email, but you know, like there's

723
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: always a bunch of caveats and then it's like I'm

724
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: nice tew three definitely in that age range. Um, what

725
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: am I supposed to do with my life? Like, you know,

726
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: I don't know who I'm supposed to be dating? Men

727
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: kind of suck. Am I even supposed to be dating? Then?

728
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: What should my major b? I don't feel passionate about anything,

729
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: but I have so much to give the world. But

730
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: I am passionate, you know. I mean they're kind of

731
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: like this everything question um, and we we try. You know,

732
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember right now we answered one of

733
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: them and I can't remember if if it was like

734
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: a microphone malfunction and we lost the answer or if

735
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: it was too long and it ended up getting cut

736
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: and we'll end up appearing in a future episode, but

737
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: we took one of them. Um. And you know, interestingly,

738
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: that's like a lot of the mail from young women

739
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: that I get to my personal account as well. It's

740
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: just kind of this general everything seems to suck? What

741
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: do I do? And I'm just like, yeah, everything just

742
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: sucks when you're at age, Like I always just right, like,

743
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: it just sucks to be to be that age. It's

744
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: really hard. It's like everything is up in the air

745
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: and you have no money and you know, it's it's

746
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: really hard to like, there's the older you get, the

747
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: more the more the steps behind you start to look

748
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: like they were a dedicated path, you know. And and

749
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: you know, when when you haven't had that many steps

750
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: to put behind you yet, it can be hard to

751
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: sort of look back and be like, okay, like maybe

752
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: now I can look forward based on where I've been. UM.

753
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: So I just tried to sort of send that um

754
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: and uh. And I also try to describe, like, you know,

755
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: let me tell you about the disaster show that was

756
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: my life when I was twenty two. You know what

757
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean just like which is which is not to

758
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: say which is which is only a reminder that um

759
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's it's easy to see this stuff in

760
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: in retrospect, not so much at the time. Yeah, so

761
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: I don't know that's that's like a theme that is real. Yeah.

762
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: We get a lot of really great feedback from listeners

763
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: whenever we share our screw up the things that we

764
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: struggled with now or when we were younger, because a

765
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: lot of people just love to hear like, oh, it's

766
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: so important. People that like I listened to my ear

767
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: earbuds that I think are like so important because I

768
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: have a podcast, Like oh, they struggled with that too.

769
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: They have pimples too, or they like didn't know what

770
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: they wanted to major. I have this weird patch of

771
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: dry skin from my eyebrows right now that I'm just like,

772
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: am I molting? Like what is going on? I shouldn't

773
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: have winter skin. It's it doesn't even get cold. Yeah, exactly.

774
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: Not perfect. We can be back from people because I

775
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: think that people are so refreshed and pleasantly surprised when

776
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: they are presented with authenticity, and I think that our

777
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: feedback shows that and I mean that makes me curious, like, what,

778
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: what do you guys get super responses too? Is there

779
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: something that you talk about in particular or a tone

780
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: or a theme or overarching topic that people just super

781
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: respond to. Yeah, I think that, Well, we get we

782
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: get lots of mail from people that basically thanks us

783
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: for talking about electoral politics and the Kardashians or like,

784
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: you know, essentially recognizing that, um that women slash people

785
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: can be interested in all these variety of things at once. UM,

786
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: So that that's sort of one thing. UM. Personal stories

787
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: definitely get get emails. UM when we when we talk

788
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: about we were talking about anything medical, people totally want

789
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: to tell us well, here's what I'm putting in my

790
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: vagama or that's not what my doctor told me or whatever.

791
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: You know, like there's the medical stuff. And in part

792
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: because we are openly and SENDI deliberately kind of ignorant,

793
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: we're like, let me ask Google m D what this

794
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: problem is or whatever. You know, doctors write us and

795
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: they're like, UM, but and then and then sometimes like um,

796
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: you know, there will be there will be a segment

797
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: that UM that speaks to something that's happening in the

798
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: news in a slightly more nuanced way, or because we

799
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: can approach it conversationally. We had the journalist Rebecca Traster

800
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: on who's a friend and whose personal friend of both

801
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: of ours, and it's awesome. Um. She talked a little

802
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: bit about like Hillary and Bernie and like her conflicting

803
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: feelings about both of those, like camps and um. And

804
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: we got mail from a lot of people who were like, oh, yeah,

805
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: like that I support insert Bernie or insert Hillary or whoever,

806
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: and that put it in a new light for me.

807
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: We got an email from a friend of ours who

808
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: works in politics and is like a hardcore Hillary hater

809
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: who was like, you really made me rethink not how

810
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: I feel about her, but how I respond to her publicly,

811
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: and like how what the narrative is and like that

812
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: was really cool. Um. So sometimes it is like about

813
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: the more sort of substantive serious stuff, not so much

814
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: the personal anecdotes. Um. But yeah, there's really a range

815
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: and and mostly it's like, you know, we'll mention something

816
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: like a weird aside and someone will be like, I'm

817
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: also from that part of iowan have a mole on

818
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: the right blood sheet or whatever, you know what I mean.

819
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: Like people, people are really looking to identify with like

820
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,959
Speaker 1: whatever you know, which is cool, which is really cool.

821
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: It's like you know when when you when you stack

822
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: up all of like my life experience in demographic details

823
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 1: and all of Amina's like that. We actually probably overlap

824
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: with a lot of women, so you can imagine the

825
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: mail we get like that. Well, Caroline, that seems like

826
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: the perfect transition point back into the stuff I never

827
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 1: told you studio for our listener mail. But of course

828
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: first we want to thank An again so much for

829
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: talking to us and even though she wasn't there, Amina,

830
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: thank you too. Thank you for making call your girlfriend

831
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: with and Friedman. Um. Y'all need to go right now

832
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: to call your girlfriend dot com and or and Friedman

833
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: dot com and get on these ladies radars or get

834
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: these ladies on your radar, or I mean if you

835
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: can get on their radar, then that's amazing too. Call everyone,

836
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: all of your girlfriend on all the radars, listen to

837
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: the podcasts. And I know that there are a lot

838
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: of call your girlfriend and and fans listening, So send

839
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: us yell fan mail on step at house Stuffworks dot

840
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us

841
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: at mom stub podcasts or messages on Facebook. And we've

842
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you when

843
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick right, Hey, Caroline,

844
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: you know what time it is? What time? Is that

845
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: time for me to brag about my personal website that

846
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: I built with square Space? Oh good, I hear it

847
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: was really easy. It was so easy, Caroline, not even kidding.

848
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 1: I don't know how to code beyond very basic HTML skills,

849
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: and that was totally fine because square space offers so

850
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: many intuitive tools and beautiful designs for you to choose

851
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 1: from that my personal website, Christ and Conqueror dot com

852
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: looks like maybe I hired someone or maybe I'm just

853
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Speaker 1: really good at building websites. Nice. I love a good

854
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Speaker 1: illusion me too. So to get in on the square

855
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Speaker 1: space action listeners, because really, who doesn't need a website

856
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Speaker 1: these days? Head on over to squarespace dot com and

857
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Speaker 1: us a code mom stuff for ten percent off your

858
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Speaker 1: first purchase, and if you sign up for a year,

859
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Speaker 1: you get a free domain. That's perfect. What more can

860
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: I want? Nothing, Caroline, except maybe ten percent off your

861
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: first order at squarespace by using the code mom stuff.

862
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: And now back to the show. Well, I have a

863
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: letter here from Myra. It is a bit of a

864
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: correction from our disability and Sexuality episode. Myras says, just

865
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: a quick note. I also tweeted as I was listening

866
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: to your disability podcast about a common but potentially serious error.

867
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: Learning disabilities and mental disabilities are conflated in your podcast.

868
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: That's not a fair thing to do, and those who

869
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: have learning disabilities may well catch it and WinCE. Learning

870
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: disabilities never involve lower or slower intelligence or brain damage.

871
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: People with learning disabilities can be geniuses and can often

872
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: be expected to work to the same standards as non

873
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: disabled people in much more complicated tasks than people with

874
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: many mental disabilities. I have great respect for people with

875
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: Down syndrome, for instance, and accommodating these people matters to me,

876
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: but they are not in the same category of disability

877
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 1: as someone with a d D or dyslexia or Asperger syndrome,

878
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: or my own learning disability, and to imply so demeans

879
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: the potential and flexibility of what I or anyone else

880
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: with a learning disability can, with proper accommodation, be expected

881
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: to do. Many people and even scholars, make these errors,

882
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: so it's understandable, but please take note that the wrong

883
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: language and causes problems for people in the same way

884
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: that conflating physical and mental disabilities does. Thanks and I

885
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: love that you're dealing with this topic. And thank you Myra.

886
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 1: We appreciate it well. I've got a letter here from

887
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: Maya about our episode on Anita Hill, and she writes,

888
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your episodes on the llegal

889
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: history of sexual harassment and the legal battle of Anita Hill.

890
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: Her usual. I enjoyed learning all the information you brought

891
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: to the podcast. This week, However, I reached a new

892
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: level of shocked at how much I know about what

893
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: I didn't know As a black female graduate student at

894
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: the University of Oklahoma. I was flabbergasted to find out

895
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: I had never heard the name Anita Hill. It appears

896
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: as legal war was great wage at the perfect place

897
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: and time to get left out of the majority of

898
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: the national conversation on equality in the workplace. It was

899
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: long enough ago for many to stop talking about it,

900
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: but still too recent to be in our history books.

901
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: That being said, I don't think any textbook publishing company

902
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: has the brass to include such a controversial conversation about

903
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: a current Supreme Court judge. Though I can't wait to

904
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: see Carrie Washington take on this powerful role, I can't

905
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: help but wonder who else have we forgotten? I can't

906
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: wait to call others into this conversation because now that

907
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: I know better, I need to do better. Well, thank

908
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: you so much, Maya, and we are really excited to

909
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,760
Speaker 1: watch Gary Washington's confirmation as well, hitting HBO very soon.

910
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: And with that, dear listeners, you know where to email

911
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: us Mom Stuff at House of works dot com. Is

912
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: he addressed? And for links all of our social media

913
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts

914
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: with our sources so you can learn more about the

915
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: fabulous and freedman. Head on over to stuff Mom Never

916
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands

917
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com