1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: it just means the absolute world to have your support. 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Some 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: bad news for our quote unquote friends over at VANN 10 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: in terms of the ratings department. Of course, this comes 11 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: after they re overhauling the whole thing, a new morning 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: show boss, new strategy, and also at a time when 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: I have to say our show is doing better than 14 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: not show across the board that political news is just down. 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: Let's go and put this up on the screen. Now. 16 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: Granted this is Fox News is right up, so they 17 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: obviously have a dog in this fight. But the fact remains, 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: CNN has smallest weekly primetime audience in advertiser coveted demo 19 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: in over thirty years. I'll give you some of the 20 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: numbers here. So CNN during primetime finished with an average 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: of three hundred and eighty three thousand viewers. But they 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: say their more alarming issue comes in the Key demo 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: of adults age twenty five to fifty four, where at 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: their smallest primetime audience in over thirty years, they settled 25 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: in primetime for only eighty thousand total viewers in the demo. 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: And again I always say this in the biz of 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: cable news, no one cares about. The total numbers are 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: completely irrelevant. They don't matter at all. The only thing 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: people look at is the numbers in the demo eighty thousand. 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: But I have to say they looked at the Fox 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: News one was not all that impressive either. One hundred 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand this was for the daytime and two 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: hundred and nineteen thousand during primetime. That's also not like 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: amazing numbers for Fox News either. Exactly. Remember all this 35 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: YouTube shows all of us, A vast majority of our 36 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: audience is in the key demo, because that you know, 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: those are the people who watch our show. The vast 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: majority of many of these smaller time YouTube creators are 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: even still like a mid tier YouTube creator is bigger 40 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: in the key demo than any of these people. The 41 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: cultural relevance comes only from boomers and from mainstream media 42 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: respecting each other, that's it. But yeah, it is humiliating. 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: The literally the lowest advertiser coveted demo in thirty years, 44 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: almost the entire history of the network, back when they 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: were a fledgling startup. Is the last time that they 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: were doing this badly. So I just pray and hope 47 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: the cable companies take notice and they stop paying him 48 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: so many fees, because once that gravy train is gone, 49 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: the subscriber fees, these people are dead, completely dead. We 50 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: may not be that far off, who knows, maybe like 51 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: seven years or so. Apparently even Biden Secretary of State 52 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: Tony Blincoln made a joke about them. I don't know 53 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: if this was at the Gridiron dinner or where it's 54 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: a keynote speech at a Washington, DC event. Apparently said, 55 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: according to the guests, there are six hundred attendees here tonight. 56 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: CNN would kill for an audience like that. So, even 57 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: taking taken heat from the Biden administration, yeah, rule ratings 58 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: also just hit the all time low today the day 59 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: Biden segment. Yes, yeah, I saw that. People So okay, 60 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: all right, well they deserve each other. There you go. 61 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: We're always on the lookout for some good Kamala moment. 62 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: She certainly doesn't disappoint. First on Roe Versus, weighed with 63 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: the I do believe that we rightfully believe, and somehow 64 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: that one not learning her lesson and giving basically the 65 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: exact same response when asked on the most friendly environment 66 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: possible to Stephen Colbert Show about the Willow Project, here's 67 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: what she had to say. Was there any discussion in 68 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: the White House about what the blowback would be for 69 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: approving the Willow Oil project because people have gotten quite 70 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: upset about it. I think there's some protesters outside right now. Well, 71 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: I think that the concerns are based on what we 72 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: should all be concerned about. But the solutions have to 73 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: be and include what we are doing in terms of 74 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: going forward in terms of investments. So the concern should 75 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: be on the concerns of what we're concerned about and 76 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: the solutions. You know, she would be a great HR director, 77 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: That's what I think her. She went into the wrong business. 78 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: She would be a great HR director at a major 79 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: company and somebody's coming to them pissed off about a 80 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: legitimate issue, and she just tries to talk them off 81 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: the ledge until you basically tire of hearing like corporate 82 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: battle speak before you go outside. You want to blow 83 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: your own brains out, because that's how I feel listening 84 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: to her. How could you possibly not come up with 85 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: a better answer. It's like, you know, it's the same 86 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: thing as you said, Marshall says always at our live shows. 87 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: It's like she wants to be like an Aaron Sorkin 88 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: West Wing character, but doesn't have the talent or I 89 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: guess the intellect to come up with something actually smart 90 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: to see where any core value. Yes, yeah, you know, 91 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 1: have something to say. You have to have to believe 92 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: to say, do you have to believe something? And like 93 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: that has always been the problem for her. I mean, 94 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: this is a real sticky issue for the Biden administration 95 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: because Biden on the campaign explicitly said that he would 96 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: not move forward with this Willow oil project when he 97 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: was trying to curry favor with the Democratic base and 98 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: now has completely flip flopped. They've gotten very little pushback 99 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: on the fact that he broke what was a campaign 100 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: pledge from the media. This very gentle questioning from Colbert, 101 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: which then there's no follow up after she completely whiffs 102 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: it right, said that literally doesn't mean anything what you 103 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: just said. It means absolutely nothing. So my point is 104 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: this is an obvious issue for the administration that she 105 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: should have been very well prepared to be able to handle. 106 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: But of course she's not. And I am old enough 107 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: to remember that. Just last week, the view ladies Sonny 108 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: in particular, were asserting that any of the criticism of 109 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris was just sexism and racism, and Anna Navarro 110 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: was imploring everyone to shut up about any problems they 111 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: have with Kamala Harris because you know, this isn't just 112 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: about her being the vice president of the United States 113 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: was ultimately is like a role that doesn't have any 114 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: real official power. It's also about the fact that she 115 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: is a heartbeat away from the presidency and the president 116 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: is really old. So it becomes, you know, as they 117 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: face the next campaign, it becomes a super relevant issue 118 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: how while she is able to fare in these circumstances 119 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: and performances like this, or why a lot of people 120 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: are Yeah, even people who are Democratic allies are cringing 121 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and very uncomfortable. Absolutely, we're continuing to process the fallout 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: after SVB fails, Signature Bank failed and one of the 123 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: stories we're going to continue to focus in on is 124 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: exactly how this happened, what politicians were complicit in rolling 125 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: back regulations, and what exactly some of those corrupt ties were. 126 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: It's going to put this up on the screen. It's 127 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg News. They noted that Signature Bank this is 128 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: again one of the ones that collapsed, and we veiled 129 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: them out through a fundraiser for the congressman who is 130 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: now probing how it failed, GOP's McHenry, Chaish the House 131 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: Financial Services Committee. The campaign says the donations are not 132 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: going to be processed from the event, but it illustrates 133 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: the incredibly cozy ties between the legislators who are supposed 134 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: to be overseeing this sector and the banks themselves. Part 135 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: of what they say here is that the House Republican 136 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: overseeing that inquiry was inside Signature's boardroom on New York's 137 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: Fifth Avenue just ten days before their collapse. He was 138 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: there Patrick McHenry to raise thousands of dollars from bank executives. 139 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: According to them, the mood inside the Signature boardroom at 140 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: that fundraiser was crome. According to a person who was 141 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: at the event who asked for anonymity. There was no 142 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: overt anxiety or tension, they said, instead, there were questions 143 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: about the debt ceiling. Now, they did decide not to 144 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: process these contributions. However, it's worth noting that this same 145 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: member of Congress has been a favorite of Signature bank 146 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: employees since twenty seventeen. They've given him a little more 147 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: than a one hundred and eighty eight thousand dollars. That 148 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: has almost tripled the sixty six thousand dollars that they've 149 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: given to Minnesota's Tina Smith, a Democratic member of the 150 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: Senate Banking Committee, who has received the second highest amount 151 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: from them. So you can see how the game is played, 152 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, this reminds me of the how Richie Neil, 153 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: who was the Chairman of the House or was the 154 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,559 Speaker 1: chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, was throwing 155 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: fundraisers for the banks and in some cases having bank parties, 156 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: AIG parties in the committee room while it was all happening. 157 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: I remember that was a big story that I did 158 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: over at Rising. That's why I think that it's so 159 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: important to show you like this is direct pay to 160 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: play more than you give to anybody else. To the 161 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: guy who is literally the chairman of the Financial Services Committee. Yeah. Who. 162 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: You also have the former Chairman of the House Financial 163 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: Services Committee, Barty Frank, on the board of directors for 164 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: the bank, just to say, hey, you give us some 165 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: money work system, that's how it works. And guess who 166 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 1: else was on the board of Signature Bank. Tell me 167 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: Evanka Trump, Oh of course, yeah wow. So you know, 168 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: very bipartisan of fa they made shared to curry favor 169 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: with both parties. Barney Frank. I mean, this one, though, 170 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: is just so galling because this is the man that 171 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: when he was Chair of the House Financial Services he 172 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: was involved in drafting Dodd Frank. Then he goes and 173 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: joins the board of not just this bank, but there 174 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: was another one as well, or an investment fund or 175 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: something of that nature, and as part of Signature Bank, 176 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: goes and actually lobbies to roll back the very regulations 177 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: that he helped to craft and now is involved in, 178 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, this bank that collapsed and is you know, 179 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: being backstop by the US taxpayer. Ultimately, it really is 180 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: such a clear and disgraceful example of the revolving door here. 181 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: But you can see how they, you know, how they 182 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: play their cards here. In Washington, they make sure that 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: whoever sits on that committee that's relevant to them that 184 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: now is going to be charged with looking into what 185 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: exactly went wrong here and what sort of bad decisions 186 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: and potentially even fraudulent decision went into it. Well, maybe 187 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: this guy is given back or not going to process 188 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: the donations from this particular fundraiser, but don't worry. They're 189 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: already in about two hundred thousand dollars to them, so 190 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: they already have curried plenty of favor. So when he 191 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: looks at this, potentially he'll have a more favorable view 192 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: than he might otherwise. Yeah. I just think it's completely 193 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: ridiculous the way that this is handling. And the fact 194 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: too that you know, outside of a very limited amount 195 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: of coverage, he's not getting a lot of questions about this. 196 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: He's like, what are you going to do? And that's 197 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: actually part of my biggest beef with the entire Washington 198 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: response is it did not prompt at least a new 199 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: type of DoD Frank regulation, Like we didn't even start 200 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: discussing like Okay, what is Congress going to do? Are 201 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: we going to have hearings? Like how is all going 202 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: to work? Nothing. Instead, it's all the FED and FDIC 203 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: that are stepping in to take the regulatory role. That's 204 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: Congress's entire job. Yeah. Well, there have been some lawmakers 205 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: who have you know, been advocating for, especially rolling back 206 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: that deregulation that happened in twenty eighteen. But you're correct 207 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: to know that there doesn't seem to be a lot 208 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: of momentum behind that. And we certainly haven't heard the 209 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: White House taken the lead in terms of saying, hey, 210 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: we did this for the banking sector, now we need 211 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: to make sure this never happens again. Here's the legislation 212 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: I want to see, put it on my desk. We're 213 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: not seeing any sort of urgency around this whatsoever. Yeah, 214 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: I think you're right. Hi. I'm Matt Stoler, author of 215 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: monopoly focused newsletter Big and an anti trust policy analyst. 216 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: I have a great segment for you today on this 217 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: Big breakdown. So since August of last year, there have 218 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: been shortages of a drug called Adderall, which is used 219 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: to treat conditions like autism, narcolepsy, and most commonly, attention 220 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: deficit disorder. People with ADHD have trouble focusing and sometimes 221 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: even doing routine tasks like telling the time. Adderall addresses 222 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: this problem and has improved the lives of millions of 223 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: people with this disorder. So here's Matt Ford, a journalist 224 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: for The New Republic, discussing his use of adderall and 225 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: the shortage. I've been taking this for twenty years. No 226 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: stranger to the stigma, even for people who legitimately needed. 227 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: Still incredible that Congress and the Biden administration don't seem 228 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: to care enough to even pretend they're doing something about it. 229 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: Here's a follow on tweet. I've spent all day calling 230 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: every pharmacy near me in DC. They're all out. No 231 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: idea what it'll be back in stock, no idea where 232 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: I can find a place that might be able to 233 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: help I run out later this week. Without going into specifics, 234 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: my quality of life is about to get a lot 235 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: worse now. Like a lot of drugs, adderall has properties 236 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: that are addictive is if misused, and people do abuse it. 237 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: In that sense, It's a lot like fetnyl morphine oxycoton, 238 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: which are prescription drugs that have very similar properties to 239 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: heroin and are often used to treat cancer pain, but 240 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,239 Speaker 1: can also be abused. People buy them and from pharmacies 241 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: and resell them. This class of drugs medicine is called 242 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: they're called scheduled drugs because the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Agency, 243 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: places them on a schedule and has special regulatory limits 244 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: to prevent resale and essentially drug dealing. America does have 245 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: a serious prescription drug abuse problem, where people who shouldn't 246 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: get prescription drugs get them, abuse them, resell them, and 247 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: in many cases people are dying. So we had over 248 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand deaths last year from fentnyl and other opioids, 249 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: not all or prescription drugs, but it often it came 250 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: from a prescription abuse crisis. So here's a chart from 251 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: the Center for Disease Control, and you can see that 252 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: the lines point very much the wrong way. At the 253 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: same time, we also have a prescription drug shortage, where 254 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 1: people who should be able to get prescription drugs for 255 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: legitimate medical purposes can't get them. And believe it or not, 256 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: both of these problems have the same root, which is 257 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: a form of monopoly power that used to be called 258 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: absentee ownership. So that's what I'm going to talk about today, 259 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: and I'm going to focus on the adderable shortage and 260 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: its roots in surprisingly the opioid crisis. Now, there's a 261 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: lot of good reporting on the adderall shortage. There are 262 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: discussions of supply chain fragility, DEA regulations, the complexity of 263 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: the different players in the pharmaceutical markets, and so on 264 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: and so forth, and a lot of these articles that 265 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: you read, and they're everywhere. If you need aderall, you 266 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's all very difficult to figure 267 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: out what's going on. It's also complicated, or so we're told, 268 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: and the reporting is by and large right. The shortage 269 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: is complicated and it has several causes. So TEP Pharmaceuticals, 270 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: for instance, which is the largest producer of adderall and 271 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: it's also the largest producer of generic pharmaceuticals in the world, 272 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: it had significant problems with one of its factories. They 273 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: called it the labor shortage. There might have been other issues, 274 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: but we don't hear a lot about an obvious part 275 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: of the problem. Or we do, but it's indirect and 276 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: that is monopoly. So a few months ago I got 277 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: a text from one of the smartest pharmacists I know, 278 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: who owns an independent pharmacy that's been in his family 279 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: for three generations. He knows the business cold. He also 280 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: consults for other independent pharmacies, and he told me something 281 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. He told me that big distributors are no 282 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: longer allowing most pharmacies access to controlled substances, the independent pharmacies. 283 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: This is controlled substance is another way for saying scheduled drugs. 284 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: So these are useful medicines that can also be addictive. Now, 285 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: as the Adderall shortage stretches on endlessly, I figure I 286 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: would share what he told me. While, you know, while 287 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: a temporary shortage makes and sometimes you know there aren't 288 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: enough Taylor Swift tickets, or if there are factories at 289 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: the biggest problems at the factory of the biggest producer 290 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: of Adderall, which is Teva, you know you would expect 291 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: maybe a temporary shortage, but persistent shortages of easily produced 292 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: medicines that are not patented because Adderall is not on patent, 293 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: so anybody can come in with an FDA proof factory, 294 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: and those kinds of shortages shouldn't exist in America. I mean, 295 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: if you can sell medicine for a lot of money, 296 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: you would think someone would be doing it. So what's 297 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: going on with Adderall? Well, my contact told me that 298 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: one likely cause of the shortage, and not the only one, 299 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: but probably a significant one, is a certain form of 300 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: a monopolistic behavior in the pharmaceutical industry that prevents new 301 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: entrants from coming into the market and selling and distributing 302 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: these kinds of drugs. So there are three major distributors 303 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: of medicine in the United States, McKesson, amerisource Bergen, and 304 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: Cardinal Health. They are sometimes referred to as the Big Three. 305 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: According to a Senate report a couple of years ago, 306 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: they collectively control roughly eighty five to ninety percent of 307 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: the market. You won't be surprised to hear that these firms, 308 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: which does an oligopoly, exist because of a series of mergers. 309 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: The big one was the formation of amerisource Bergen in 310 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, but there are many other mergers 311 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: over the last couple of decades that it's been a 312 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: consolidating industry like a lot of America because of our 313 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: policy choices to allow that the business of distributing drugs 314 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: is pre conceptionly is pretty simple. Obviously, there's a lot 315 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: of details. It's very complicated when you get into the 316 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: actual specifics, but Conceptually, it's simple. You buy medicine from manufacturers, 317 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: you put them in a warehouse, and then you sell 318 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: them to pharmacies, hospitals, medical providers who need them, and 319 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: then dispense them to patients. But the key to the business, 320 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: the specific business model of these wholesalers sometimes they're called 321 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: the wholesaler, sometimes distributors, and the key to that business, 322 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: at least on the pharmacy side, are exclusive contracting arrangements 323 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: with independent pharmacies. And these are contracts which are almost 324 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: always secret. So if you're a pharmacist and you want 325 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: to buy from a distributor, you basically have to take 326 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: a contract from a distributor or an affiliate of that 327 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: distributor to get ninety percent of your generic pharmaceuticals from 328 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: that one distributor. So my contact has a contract with 329 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: Cardinal where he has to buy nine twenty percent of 330 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: his pharmaceuticals from Cardinal. He's not sure what will happen 331 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: if he doesn't meet that threshold because he's not actually 332 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: allowed to read the contract that he's a party two, 333 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: which is crazy. It's a secret contract that binds him. 334 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: But he tries to buy as much of the generic 335 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: medicine as he can through Cardinal as possible. Now, it's 336 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: not just problems in the distribution arrangement. There's all sorts 337 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: of other other middlemen in the pharmaceuticals supply chain. These 338 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: contracting arrangements are secret in a lot of cases. So 339 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: Tava is the largest producer of Adderall, it probably has 340 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: contracts with the different wholesalers that create an exclusive arrangement 341 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: as well. So Cardinal will say maybe Tava's products are 342 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: it's preferred version of Adderall in return for rebates or 343 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: something like that. We don't know because the contracts are 344 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: are private. Now. In twenty eighteen, the Senate Finance Committee 345 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: produced a report and noted that the opaque nature of 346 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: the current system allows for little insight into how the 347 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: price of a drug changes or is otherwise affected by 348 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: the terms of these financial relationships. And Teva is also 349 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: a giant and I'm going to get into why Teva matters, 350 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: but it had seven multi billion dollar acquisitions in the 351 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: last twenty years alone, including a forty billion dollar acquisition 352 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: of Myelin in twenty sixteen. It is now the largest 353 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: generic pharmaceutical producer in the world. So these are giant companies. Right, 354 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: the wholesalers have hundreds of billions of dollars revenue apiece. 355 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: Teva is massive, okay, And that brings me to the 356 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: first part of the problem, which is the opioid crisis. 357 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: There were many causes of mass drug addiction in America 358 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: over the last twenty years, but Teva, McKesson, Cardinal, and 359 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: marisource Bergen were knee deep in the problem. They were 360 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: breaking the law to dispense pills, to make and dispense 361 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: pills illegally, and then they kept they get caught, and 362 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: they kept it again, doing it again. So let's just 363 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: take Cardinal, right, because that's the one that I'm going 364 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: to focus on. The other two have similar records. So 365 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, it pays a thirty four 366 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: million dollar penalty related to claim of opioid diversion from 367 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: seven of its warehouses around the United States. In twenty twelve, 368 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: it was caught again, this time for shipping twelve million 369 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: opioid pills to just four pharmacies in Florida. In twenty sixteen, 370 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: it paid forty four million dollars for failing to report 371 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: suspicious orders in Maryland and a bunch of other states. 372 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, same thing, twenty million dollar payment to 373 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: West Virginia for not reporting suspicious transactions and orders of 374 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: opioid pills the other distributors. The same thing in twenty seven. 375 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: In fact, this is my favorite quote. The DEA said 376 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: that the continued registration of Amerisursbergen constitutes an imminent danger 377 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: to public health and safety. Okay, so the three main distributors, right, 378 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: the big ones that distribute to everyone that you have 379 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: to use, are all illicit drug dealers, right, and you 380 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: can't go to I mean, there are some smaller ones, 381 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: but you basically can't get everything you need from them. 382 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: So that's the situation. Now. In twenty twenty one, there 383 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: was a national settlement because opioid crisis became such a 384 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: big political issue and we said we're going to put 385 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: a stop to this and the distributors. Lots of players 386 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: in the industry had to pay. The distributors were included 387 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: in that. So the distributors had to pay twenty one 388 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: billion dollars over eighteen years to resolve all state litigation 389 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: including opioids, and Teva paid four point five billion dollars 390 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: over thirteen years. I've read one of the key complaints 391 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: against these firms from Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson, 392 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: and what is interesting about it is that the allegations 393 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: are not that these guys were like Entenlily, trying to 394 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: addict people to opioids. It's just that they were neglectful. 395 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: It wasn't that these guys, you know, wanted to addict America. 396 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: They just didn't have the ability or really they didn't 397 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: try to stop doing so. They didn't really want to 398 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: do any work. Right, if someone some pharmacy was buying 399 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: ten million pills, they just didn't care enough to stop them. 400 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: And that's where the story of adderall shortages begins. You see, 401 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: the opioid settlement for the state attorney generals was mostly 402 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: about money. The state at ags wanted to get money 403 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: from distributors and spend it on treatment and on dealing 404 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: with the crisis that they're now confronting. This makes sense, right, 405 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the first of a prescription drug addiction, and then when 406 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: people couldn't get prescription drugs, then they went to the street. 407 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: They bought heroin, they bought a llegal fentanyl. Like, it's 408 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: not a prescription drug crisis as much anymore. It's now 409 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: just an addiction crisis. But all these states have to 410 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: deal with it. So they need money and they were 411 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: going to well, you guys cause it, so we're going 412 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: to get money from you. And they did get money 413 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: from them, but they weren't thinking about the cause of 414 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: the crisis, the institutional cause of the crisis in these firms, 415 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: or the consequence of retaining a monopolized wholesaling market. They 416 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: weren't thinking, oh, we have three companies that are big 417 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: drug dealers, maybe we should have a market where not 418 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: every big institution that deals medicine is an illicit drug dealer. 419 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: They just said, well, that's how it is. We have 420 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: a monopolized market, so let's figure out what we can 421 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: do with it. And so aside from money, the settle 422 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: they put some rules in there, and those rules were 423 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: rules that the distributors, these big distributors had to follow, 424 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: and they were very strict these rules in trying to 425 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: block what controlled substances wholesalers could sell. Now here's the 426 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: main document. It's really boring, but I read it for 427 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: you and it has a section on how wholesalers must 428 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: now be more careful in selling opioids and controlled substances 429 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: in general to pharmacies. This seems to make sense. It 430 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: sets out a number of what it calls red flags 431 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: for potential customers, like if you're pharmacy, you're selling to 432 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: a pharmacy and that pharmacy has been sanctioned by the authorities, 433 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: or you have to see whether that pharmacy is up 434 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: to date unlicensing requirements, or if that pharmacy has a 435 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: lot of cash buyers, or if that pharmacy is responsive 436 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: to requests for information. Stuff that you would think is 437 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: pretty serious, right, like if you have been sanctioned by 438 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: your state board, maybe you are. Maybe there are issues 439 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: if you refuse to give information or you take a 440 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: lot of cash. These are signs. These are red flags. 441 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: But also red flags included things like the amount of 442 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: controlled substances you prescribe has grown, or if the ratio 443 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: of controlled substances versus normal medicine has increased above an 444 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: average amount for pharmacies in your area. And that too 445 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: seems reasonable on first glance, but it is in fact 446 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: the cause of the adderall shortage, as I'll get to 447 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: in a moment. So what happens if there's a red flag, Well, 448 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: the distributor is supposed to do some due diligence to 449 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: make sure the pharmacy isn't what's called a pill mill, 450 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: which is a edity that just sells lots of controlled 451 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: substances for resale. And if they find out that it 452 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: is a pill mill, right is buying lots of opioids 453 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: or whatever you know, vic it in and then selling 454 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: it to people who then resell it. You cut them off. 455 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: You black bailed them. You don't blackball them, you don't 456 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: let them buy any more controlled substance. But if a 457 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: pharmacist is trying to get people medicine in good faith 458 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: and they've just had an increase in say, cancer patients, 459 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: then you let them keep getting the medicine that they 460 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: need to prescribe to patients. But of course, wholesalers didn't 461 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: want to do work during the opioid crisis to stop 462 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: selling millions of pills, and now they want to do 463 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: work to make sure that the pharmacies that they're selling 464 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: to are legitimate or not. And they really don't have 465 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: relationships with the pharmacy they sell to. They're just too big. 466 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: They communicate with them via via algorithm essentially, so instead 467 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: of due diligence, they arbitrarily cut off pharmacies who increase 468 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: the amount any controlled substance they prescribe. So, according to 469 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: The New York Times, I said algorithm. This is where 470 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: I got it from. The distributors use algorithms that cap 471 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: the quantities of controlled substances of pharmacy can sell. In 472 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: a month before the settlement, pharmacists said they could explain 473 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: to a distributor the reason for a surge and demand 474 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: and still receive the medication past their limits. Now, the 475 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: caps appear to be more rigid. Drugs are cut off 476 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: with no advanced notice or rapid recourse. So the net 477 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: effect of this is that if a pharmacy fills too many, 478 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: say aderall prescriptions or prescriptions for cancer pain, they are 479 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: cut off and can no longer buy any controlled substances, 480 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: from ambient to pseudi fed defentanyl to percocet to riddlin. 481 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: And that is actually a big financial hit. So if 482 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: you're a pharmacy, every time a new patient comes to 483 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: you with a legitimate prescription for painkiller or for ADHD medication, 484 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: you have to weigh whether it's worth getting your entire 485 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: business cut off to fill it, not all of it, 486 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: but all of your controlled substances, which is, you know, 487 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: ten to twenty percent of your revenue. So I come in, 488 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,479 Speaker 1: I say I need a Riddlin prescription or I need 489 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: an adderall prescription, and the pharmacist says, I can fill it. 490 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: I know this guy needs it, I know it's legit. 491 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: I know that doctor. He's a good doctor. I know 492 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: this patient. But I might have fifteen to twenty percent 493 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: of my revenue cut off if I fill it. That's 494 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: the choice that these pharmacists face. Medicine is a system. Pharmaceuticals. 495 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: It's a system, and when one pharmacy is cut off, 496 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: the legitimate demand doesn't go away. If I say to 497 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: that If I'm a pharmacist and I say to that patient, 498 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to fill it. I can't do it. 499 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: It's not like he's going to stop looking for attall. 500 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: He's going to go elsewhere. And the remaining pharmacies willing 501 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: to fill legitimate prescription will end up increasing their ratio 502 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: of controlled substances to normal medicine because there's all this 503 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: demand that's looking for a place to go. Well, of 504 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: course that means that their ratios go up and then 505 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: they get cut off, and so on and so forth 506 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: in a downward spile, because you have all this legitimate 507 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: demand that goes to a smaller number of pharmacies, each 508 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: of which then increasingly trips these red flags and then 509 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: they get black bull So what eventually has happened, and 510 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: what's happened now is that a lot of pharmacists have 511 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: conduct concluded that it's just not worth it to prescribe 512 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: any controlled substance unless a patient buys a lot of 513 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: other normal medicines as well, so that your ratio of 514 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: controlled substance to normal medicines doesn't get out of back. 515 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: So over time it's become impossible to get a prescription 516 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: filled for adderall, especially if that's basically the only medication 517 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: that you take. Now, there are other problems that make 518 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: the situation worse. The DEA, the Center, the CMS, the 519 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: centers for medic Medicare and Medicaid services, state licensing boards 520 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: have rules that are public that make it harder and 521 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: harder to prescribe controlled substances. The DA they're embarrassed for 522 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: their own failures during the opioid crisis, and so they 523 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: also flipped the wrong way, and now they're too tough 524 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: on prescribing legitimate medicine. But the real problem here is 525 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: the wholesalers. Because while they have rules, those rules are 526 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: totally secret. A pharmacist can't call up and find out 527 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: whether they're violating them. If a patient comes to me 528 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: and says I need adderall, I can't call up Cardinal 529 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: and say, hey, have I tripped the cap? They won't say, right. 530 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: At least the public rules from the government agencies are public. Now, 531 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: this is what happened to my contact. He was seeing 532 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: more and more adderall patients because farm near him stopped 533 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: serving those patients, and it was legitimate demand. So he 534 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: and his dad been in the community for their whole lives. 535 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: They talked about it, and they decided it was important 536 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: to help people who needed this medication, even that there 537 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: might be a risk. Then, of course, as they prescribed 538 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: more and more of this, the pharmacy got cut off 539 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: from all controlled substances by Cardinal. And this wasn't actually 540 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: because of the This wasn't when he prescribed another adderall patient. 541 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: There was one cancer pation that he had that had 542 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: his or her painkiller dose increased, and then boom, cut 543 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: off all those patients have to go elsewhere to get 544 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: their controlled substances because he can't get he can't get 545 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: those from Cardinals, So he calls Cardinal. They say, reapply 546 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: to get controlled substances in three months, so he does. 547 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: Three months later. Cardinal says, sorry, no, Dice, We're not 548 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: going to reassate your pharmacy and allow you to buy 549 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: controlled substances, even though you gave us all of the 550 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: information you needed and you look legitimate. And he's like, 551 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: well why, As it turns out, they say, well, you 552 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: got blackballed by Teva Pharmaceuticals as well, which is the 553 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: manufacture of many of these medicines and also party to 554 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: the settlement and also too big to manage. Contact Teva, 555 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: they said. So he calls Teva and he's like, why 556 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: am I black balled by you? And they say, well, 557 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: we blacklisted you because Cardinal have blacklisted you. So get 558 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: Cardinal to undo the blacklist. So it's like each of 559 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: these giant bureaucracies is saying, well, that guy blacklisted you, 560 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: so we have to. And the other guy says, well, 561 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: that guy blacklisted you, so we have to. So it's 562 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: this is bureaucratic. Hell, if you're a pharmacist. You just 563 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: can't do legitimate business, even if you want to do 564 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: that and help people. The simple lesson, and I think 565 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: the lesson a lot of journalists have taken a lot 566 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: of people looking at this is to say, oh, this 567 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: is all just so complicated, and bureaucrats just do what 568 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: they do, and we have these this system set up 569 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: and it's just it's brittle, and we need to figure 570 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: out how to make new rules. But here's the thing. 571 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: My contact has been able to obtain some supply of 572 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: controlled substances from smaller distributors, smaller wholesalers. None of the 573 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: smaller ones have, in his words quote, looked at us funny. 574 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: They asked for information to make sure he's not a 575 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: pill mill. He gave it to them, and they said, oh, 576 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: your policies and procedures look legitimate. And these are distributors 577 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: that weren't engaged in illegitimate drug dealing during the opioid crisis. 578 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: They don't use algorithms to make determinations about their customers. 579 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: They often know their customers. They are quite reasonable and 580 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: they so it's like, Okay, you've got these three distributors 581 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: who've been really bad drug dealers in during the opioid crisis, 582 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: but we're still going to rely on them. You have 583 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: these other distributors that you would want to compete. They 584 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: can't get into the market. Now, why can't they get 585 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: into the market. He can buy from them, but he 586 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: can't buy that much from them, because remember he is 587 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: locked into his ninety percent purchasing requirement from Cardinal. It's 588 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: important to recognize that the distributors and some of the 589 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: government agencies, the big guys, make an assumption to facto 590 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: that every person who uses prescription drugs that are controlled 591 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: substances is a criminal, and every pharmacy that prescribes these 592 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: is a drug dealer. But the small guys who know 593 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: their customers don't make those assumptions. They can distinguish between 594 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: people who need controlled substances in people who are abusing them. 595 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: They didn't facilitate the abuse years ago, and they're not 596 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 1: facilitating the shortage now. And in some cases they have 597 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: more reasonable terms and prices. But the smaller distributors can't 598 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: get into the market because pharmacists cannot buy from them. Mckisson, 599 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: ameersis burgand and Cardinal have exclusive contracting arrangements that prevent 600 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: rivals from trying to take business. Now, there are actually 601 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 1: laws that should prohibit these kinds of exclusive contracts. These 602 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: kinds of monopolies are oligopolies. So the Clayton Act, which 603 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: was passed in nineteen fourteen, Section three bars exclusive dealing contracts. 604 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: There are also other laws that bar the kinds of 605 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: discrimination and conflict of interest games that the wholesalers and 606 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: others in the pharmaceutical supply chain play to monopolize the business. 607 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: But the thing is, we haven't enforced these rules for 608 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: quite some time since the nineteen eighties, and the courts 609 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: have made it hard to bring cases around this form 610 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: of monopolization. But we are starting to recognize that we 611 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: need to enforce these laws, and not just at a 612 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: federal level, and not just you and me, but a 613 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: lot of state attorneys general are realizing in other contexts 614 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: that market structure matters. They're ssuing Google, they're suing hospitals, 615 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: they're doing a bunch of antitrust work in other areas, 616 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: and they're also starting to realize that contract contextual arrangements matters. Now, 617 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: one of the things I think was a missed opportunity, 618 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: but might be there might be another bite at the 619 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: apple was the opioid settlement. So the opioid Settlement should 620 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: have included anti monopoly provisions to take business away from 621 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: the giant firms that facilitated the crisis. They could have 622 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: officials could have tried to break the distributors when they 623 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: did the settlement, or they at very least they could 624 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: have changed their contracting practices rather than just saying, hey, 625 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: you guys are big, incompetent organizations that really screwed up. 626 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: Here's a bunch of homework that we know you're not 627 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: going to do, which was essentially what they did. It 628 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: reminded me a lot actually, of how we do banking 629 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: regulation for big bangs. You give them a bunch of 630 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: homework and then they get around it right because the 631 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: business is just too complicated. So regardless, given this serious 632 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: problems with both the opioid crisis and now the Opioid 633 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: Crisis Settlement and the shortages that it has helped to accelerate, 634 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: it's time to examine what went wrong and fix it. Now. 635 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is the only cause I haven't 636 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: done a deep dive investigation into this market, but this 637 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: does seem to be significant here, and a lot of 638 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: the reporting does kind of dance around it. There are 639 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: other issues here. I don't want to say there aren't 640 00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: other issues, but this strikes me as pretty meaningful because 641 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: in this case, the three big distributors are giant bureaucracies, 642 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: and we've all dealt with giant bureaucracies like this, and 643 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: they are organized with secret contracts and they are on 644 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: autopilot because they have market power. Now would the opioid 645 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: crisis or would this autoall shortage have happened without these 646 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: giant distributors and producers of generic fennyl and oxycoton. Maybe again, 647 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: this isn't the only cause, but maybe not, and the 648 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: problems would have been a lot less meaningful. They wouldn't 649 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: have been as big. You would have had a distributor 650 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: who said, eh, maybe we shouldn't be selling twelve million 651 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: pills to four pharmacies in Florida. If you're a pharmacist 652 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: who wants to buy from a distributor who didn't kill 653 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: lots of Americans, you pretty much can't. That's in the contract. 654 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: It shouldn't be, but it is. And that is a 655 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: fundamental problem that we're going to keep experiencing in lots 656 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: of different ways until we fix it. So thanks for 657 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: watching this big breakdown on the Breaking Points channel. If 658 00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: you'd like to know more about big business and how 659 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: how our economy really works, you could sign up below 660 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: for my market power focused newsletter Big In the description, 661 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: thanks and have a good one. Google, under pressure from chat, 662 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: GPT and other AI products, has put out Barred. I 663 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: signed up for the waitlist this morning. Bard was initially 664 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: developed it sounds like, starting back in twenty fifteen, as 665 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: a way to artificially produce poems. That's where Bard comes from. 666 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: They have been The reporting is that they were basically 667 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: pressured into releasing something they didn't quite want to release 668 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: yet because Bing and Microsoft, following from chat GPT, released 669 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: their own AI integrated it into BING and for the 670 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: first time it was making real inroads against Google, or 671 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: at least Google was perceiving the threat that they might 672 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: do that. They issued internally what code read or a 673 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: red alert that put all of their developers software engineers 674 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: onto moving this as fast as possible and put a 675 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: lot of pressure on their AI ethicists to clear the 676 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 1: way for this to finally get rolled out. They're rolling 677 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: it out in a much smaller to a much smaller 678 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: circle of people than previously. But it does seem like 679 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: this is the clearest sign yet of any that the 680 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: AI arms race is really on right. And this is 681 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 1: from Alphabet in The Wall Street Journal quotes them referring 682 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: to this as an early experiment, and to unleash these 683 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: quote early experiments on the world, I just think is 684 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: a grave danger. It sounds like it's not that big 685 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: of a deal. It sounds like the worst thing that's 686 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: going to happen is we get some wrong answers and 687 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: some cheating in school. It goes so far beyond that. 688 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: We have so many vulnerabilities that we don't even know about, 689 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: some that we do know about in terms of hacking, 690 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: in terms of the security of our data, of our information, 691 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: all of these things that can be targeted by artificial 692 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: intelligence that is going to get more intelligent every single 693 00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 1: day as we open these tools up to the pub 694 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: like now. Generally, I think it's good that we democratize 695 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: extremely powerful things like this. I do, however, think that 696 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: when you see the nervousness among engineers, among tech executives 697 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: about what could happen with this technology, that they're referring 698 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 1: to as an experiment and just unloading to the public. 699 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 1: Let's take one example. We talked last week about Snapchat, 700 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: Snapchat and the experiment the Center for Humane Technology ran 701 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: with Snapchat's new AI, which is a four dollars a 702 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: month premium feature that children can access. Well, Wappo repeated 703 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: that experiment essentially with Bart and they found they got 704 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: similar inappropriate advice for teenaged users. This is from the 705 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 1: Washington Post. After I told Bart I was about to 706 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: have my fifteenth birthday party and wanted some advice on beer, 707 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: it gladly provided me advice on how to hide the 708 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: smell of beer and breath on my breath from my parents'. 709 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: Tips included using mouthwashed, chewing gum, drinking water, and even 710 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: quote avoid getting too close to your parents. Again, this 711 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: is funny, and it is one experiment. What we saw 712 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: with Snapchat and the Center for Humane Text experiment was 713 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: they were telling a thirteen year old that was a 714 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: little less funny, how to lose her virginity. This was 715 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: AI walking through those steps. And again, if your kid 716 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: has four books on a debit card to put in 717 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: the Snapchat, it's there right now. I'm sure they've corrected 718 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: it since that was publicized, but you have no idea 719 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: where this AI goes. And that's part of the fear 720 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: that Google has, and you can see it. You can 721 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: read what they're telling their employees internally. Their memo was published, 722 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: was published in the media. They're nervous about this stuff, 723 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: and I just don't. I know a lot of people 724 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: play around with chat, GPT and all that stuff, but 725 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: I just have a very hard time funny anymore because 726 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 1: it seems to be going in a really dark direction 727 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: really quickly. And what we don't even understand is what's 728 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: going to happen when this artificial intelligence is directing people 729 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: to do some really really dark stuff. The more we 730 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: use it, the smarter it becomes. I have no fears 731 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: about it becoming sent sent to it whatsoever. It's artificial intelligence. 732 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: It will always be artificial intelligence. But man, are we 733 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: going in uncharted territory really quickly. The hacking part is 734 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: deeply disturbing as well, extremely because there's been this race 735 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: between encryption and security and the you know, hacker penetration 736 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: intrusion technology. You already have the chat bots trying to 737 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: kind of crack the new security piece that people put up, 738 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: which is annoying to everybody, but we recognize that works 739 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, find a picture with the cars, 740 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: and so far the counter software has not been able 741 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: to crack that, but artificial intelligence is easily going to 742 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: be able to nucod's way right through there. Artificial you know, 743 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: AI can take at this point handwritten a screenshot of 744 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: cursive handwriting and turn it into text and analyze it. 745 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: So it's not gonna be long before they can find 746 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: a fire hydrant. And so that's that's just one example. 747 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,439 Speaker 1: The other security protocols that we have in place, using 748 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: your voice over the phone to talk to somebody h 749 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: certainly the idea that you know last for your social 750 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: and your mother's made the name are going to are 751 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: going to be secure enough. And if you have customer service, 752 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: which is then you'll completely run by AI, then you're 753 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: going to have you know, AI scams, AI hackers interacting 754 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: with AI customer service. And so that's that's just how 755 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: how do you how do you keep the kind of 756 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: infrastructure of the Internet secure in that situation. It's to me, 757 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: it seems like we're just gonna have constant outages constant 758 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: sites going down h and constant fraud as people are 759 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: just getting ripped off day after day. No, and again, 760 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: I don't dispute that there's really good ways that this 761 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: technology is going to evolve that. I mean, that's the 762 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: case with every technology that has its upsides and its downsides, 763 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: and there is a double edged sword. But it's unclear 764 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: right now if the genie has sort of actually been 765 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: let out of the so called bottle because or of 766 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: the proverbial bottle. Because if that is the case and 767 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: this technology, which is by all the reason they're releasing 768 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: this technology, and they're in a race to integrate this 769 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: technology into existing products. Google is so sensitive about its 770 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: brand because they know that they're the top search engine 771 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: in the world. They don't want to jeopardize that. It 772 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: shows you how intense the pressure is to get this 773 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: stuff out there that they're releasing and integrating it with 774 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: Barred and doing this little quote early experiment. It shows 775 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: you how high the pressure is. These are the same 776 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: people that botched much less powerful technology with social media, 777 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: and it's the same set of people and this is 778 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: a much more powerful technology that is now going to 779 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: be in the hands of anybody who wants to do 780 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: bad with it. So we've talked about scams, think about blackmail, 781 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: think about how code can be exploited. Like, there are 782 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: just things that as I've talked to people in the 783 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: industry who have explained this to me, I would not 784 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: have even considered the dangers of But the more they 785 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: think about them. In some cases they don't realize these 786 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: vulnerabilities until other people exploit them, until the experiments are run, 787 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: they're like, holy smokes, you can do that with AI too. 788 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: Isn't it fun that we're all doing this in real 789 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: time and that anyone can do it, even people that 790 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: want to do us harm. So if the genie is 791 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: out of the bottle, we're looking back years from now 792 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: and saying, as of this moment in March of twenty 793 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: twenty three, the genie was let out of the bottle, 794 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: that this technology had been put in the hands and 795 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: was advanced enough in the hands of those people who 796 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: wish to do us harm to just start doing mass 797 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: cyber attacks, advanced cyber attacks, hacking, all of that. It's 798 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: such a sad moment that nobody learned from what happened 799 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: with social media and the odds. Yeah, I'm going back 800 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: to Vermont. That's smart. Don't blame me. Hey, we're going 801 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off last week exploring 802 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 1: the origin of the bowl outbreak in twenty fourteen. We're 803 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: going to be joined by two authors of a fascinating 804 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,439 Speaker 1: article published in Independent Science News. If we can put 805 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: that up there, and so, this is Jonathan Latham. He's 806 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: the editor of Independent Science News and he's executive director 807 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: of the Bioscience Resource Project. The article was co authored 808 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: by Sam Husseini, who is a journalist on Substack and 809 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,720 Speaker 1: elsewhere and was the co author of this story. Happy 810 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:36,240 Speaker 1: to welcome them both to Counterpoints today, Sam, doctor Latham, 811 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. So. I 812 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: wanted to start out, as we did last week by 813 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 1: playing a clip from a podcast that included virologist Christian 814 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: Anderson attempting to kind of debunk a conspiracy theory, but 815 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: in the process making a fascinating admission. If we could 816 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 1: roll that. The problem is that people see these coincidences. 817 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: One of the new ones is to a bowler lab league, 818 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: which also is being blamed on us because we have 819 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: been studying ebola in Canaman, Sierra Leone and Lo and behold, 820 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,320 Speaker 1: Ebola emerged just a few miles from there in twenty fourteen, 821 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: right obviously across the border in Guinea, but it's maybe 822 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: one hundred miles or so away. And people then put 823 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: that together and saying, oh, so that Ebola must have 824 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: been a lab league too, And it was Robert Gary 825 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: and Christian Anderson again. And the reason why these names 826 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,280 Speaker 1: keep coming up, and the reason why we get grant 827 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 1: money to study infectious diseases is because we study infectious 828 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: diseases and have done so for many, many decades. And 829 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: that's why the names keep coming up again. Right, It's 830 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: not because there's some major conspiracy theory here where all 831 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,360 Speaker 1: of us have been sort of fiddling with the fields 832 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 1: well prior to the pandemic, and so sam, the mainstream 833 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: media's initial story of the outbreak of Ebola was that 834 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: in Guinea, a two year old child was playing with bats, 835 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: and then several months later you wound up with an 836 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: ebola outbreak. What to you was so important from that 837 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 1: interview that doctor Anderson gave, Well, my suspicions predated his 838 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,439 Speaker 1: recent statements of obviously, but it's remarkable that he would 839 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,800 Speaker 1: be saying this at this point, they have been denying 840 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: that they were working on Ebola this entire time. In 841 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: their prior statements, Gary wrote an article his co partner 842 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: as head of the Viral Hemorrhagic Fever Consortium. These are 843 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: the labs in West Africa that Africans claimed might have 844 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: been the source of the twenty fourteen Ebola outbreak. He 845 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: recently denied it in an article. So for Anderson how 846 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,680 Speaker 1: to be seeming to admit in a very interesting and 847 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,240 Speaker 1: curious way that they were in fact working on Ebola 848 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: is I think potentially an incredibly significant development. But the 849 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: case against their narrative that it effectively pinning this on 850 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: a too. He wasn't even two years old. He was 851 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: eighteen minutes old. This was over a thousand miles away 852 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,799 Speaker 1: from prior Ebola outbreaks. In prior Ebola outbreaks, there was 853 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: always a die off of the local mammalian species. There 854 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 1: was no such die off of local mammalian species. They 855 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: even acknowledged that Fabian Linders, who wrote the sort of 856 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: what we would call the cover story, and who was 857 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: also part of the Huhan Institute of Prology investigation by 858 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: the World Health Organization. They acknowledged in their article that 859 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: there were no bats that they could find in the 860 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: village that they claim where the outbreak started, and they 861 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: also acknowledged that there was no die off of the 862 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: mammalian species. So there are an incredible number of holes 863 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: in their dominant narrative. And the closer you look at this, 864 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,439 Speaker 1: the more it points to a concerted effort to effectively 865 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,840 Speaker 1: frame Guinea. This happened in you know, three countries, and 866 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: there's a whole series of patterns in which they seem 867 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 1: to have tried to pin this on Guinea just over 868 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,399 Speaker 1: the border from Sarah Leone to get it away from 869 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: where the US labs were, right and doctor Latham want 870 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: to bring you in here, what did What does the 871 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,720 Speaker 1: evidence as far as we know say about the where 872 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: the most likely origin was, Well, I mean, the balance 873 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: of evidence I would say favors Guinea, but there are 874 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: some open questions about the provenance of some of the 875 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: samples that were taken. So, for example, during the outbreak 876 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,879 Speaker 1: at the very beginning, MSF doctors without Borders alleged that 877 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 1: the initial they were the people who identified the initial 878 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: the very first confirmed cases. But what they argued was 879 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 1: that those confirmed cases were in fact coming from across 880 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: the border in Sierra Leone. And if you look at 881 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: the phylogenetic research that has been used to pin the 882 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: outbreak on Guinea, what you see is that some of 883 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,839 Speaker 1: the very earliest cases that are pinned on Guinea are 884 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: probably actually from an outbreak in Sierra Leone. And so 885 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: you if you undo that misattribution, as it were, then 886 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,760 Speaker 1: what you come up with is almost certainly in origin 887 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,359 Speaker 1: in Sierra Leone. And did it start earlier than has 888 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: been publicly claimed the epidemic that is, or do we 889 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: have evidence of that at this point? Well, the official 890 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,759 Speaker 1: start of the outbreak is the first diagnosed cases on 891 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,920 Speaker 1: March the seventeenth, but what the people in Sierra Leone 892 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,879 Speaker 1: identified was a start on May twenty fifth, so this 893 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,400 Speaker 1: is two months later. And they so they they for 894 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: what they found when they first started identifying cases is 895 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,399 Speaker 1: that these cases were many mutations different from each other, 896 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,440 Speaker 1: which implies that there had been an outbreak in Serial 897 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: Leone long before, but we don't know if there was 898 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: an outbreak in Guinea long before. That is the allegation 899 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: of fabian Lean dirts and the paper that essentially found 900 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: nothing in Guinea when they went to look at the 901 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: purported outbreak site. So the claim is, the claim of 902 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: Lean Dirts, is that the outbreak started in December with 903 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: the death of this young child, but there is essentially 904 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: no evidence for that. So the children, the child doesn't 905 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: have a confirmed diagnosis, none of hes contacts has a 906 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,399 Speaker 1: confirmed diagnosis. There is no confirmed diagnosis for almost three 907 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: months after that. So for the scientific community to allege 908 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: that that is the first date of the outbreak is 909 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 1: frankly ridiculous. What else? What else could that child have 910 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,560 Speaker 1: died of? Like they say it was a bola what 911 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 1: else could it have been? His father thinks that he 912 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,760 Speaker 1: died of malaria, and you know that his father didn't 913 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: get anything, The healthcare workers in the village didn't get anything. 914 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: His mother did also die, but that was apparently potentially 915 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: for treatment that she got from a bulah. She was 916 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 1: pregnant at the top, so she was in a vulnerable, 917 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,080 Speaker 1: particularly vulnerable state. I don't know if Jonathan could have 918 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: more ideas than that. There are some suggestions that she 919 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 1: might have had cholera too, but at the time, there 920 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,880 Speaker 1: was no suggestion that she had a Bola virus. And obviously, 921 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: you know people who had miscarriages, you know, viral hemorrhagic fevers, 922 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:50,439 Speaker 1: diseases associated with loss of blood. But obviously so are miscarriages, 923 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,399 Speaker 1: and so she died along with her child, and so 924 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 1: so there's no real reason to think, so far as 925 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,360 Speaker 1: I can see that, to think that she had a BOLA, 926 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,320 Speaker 1: because it could bess misdiagnosed so easily. I mean, basically, 927 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,280 Speaker 1: the only way that anybody considers that you can confidently 928 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 1: diagnose the bola is with a lab test, and no 929 00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,799 Speaker 1: lab tests were done to tell the middle of March. 930 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,240 Speaker 1: And why, Sam, what do we know about this lab 931 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,920 Speaker 1: that was in SI early on? And why would there 932 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: be this two month period in which it seems as 933 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: if a ball is circulating but it's not getting picked up. 934 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: I'll let Jonathan speak to the second point. But this 935 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: lab is headed by Robert Gary and Christian Andersen. Those 936 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 1: names might ring a bell with people because they are 937 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:42,400 Speaker 1: the authors the two primary authors of the proximal Origins paper, 938 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: which came out in the spring of twenty twenty and 939 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:52,080 Speaker 1: asserted that COVID could not be a laboratory construct. It's 940 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,239 Speaker 1: very difficult to overstate the importance of this article. It 941 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,800 Speaker 1: really set the tone for the dominant mainstream media coverage 942 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,319 Speaker 1: COVID that it couldn't possibly come out of a lab, 943 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 1: and you were a nut job to think that it 944 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,400 Speaker 1: could possibly come out of a lab. So they had 945 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: a massive conflict of interest to dismiss the possibility of 946 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: lab origin, because the next question would be if the 947 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: if the global public. Imagine if the global public understood 948 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 1: in early twenty twenty that this plague ravaging through the 949 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 1: world could have come out of a lab, one of 950 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,319 Speaker 1: the next major questions would have been what about prior outbreaks? 951 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,280 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, you know, I asked 952 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,879 Speaker 1: in February of twenty twenty the CDC if it could 953 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:34,480 Speaker 1: have come out of if COVID could have come out 954 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:38,000 Speaker 1: of a lab, and their response was a disingenuous And 955 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,799 Speaker 1: then when I followed up and I pushed, they said, well, 956 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,840 Speaker 1: we got to be careful about what kind of information 957 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,319 Speaker 1: we put out here because remember what happened with the 958 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: ebola in twenty fourteen, and we had to dismiss the 959 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 1: possibility of the lab origin then in order to have 960 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: people deal with the disease, which was a very weird 961 00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:02,360 Speaker 1: way to put it, So that that that's a major 962 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,960 Speaker 1: thing that we have to keep in mind. There are 963 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of US institutions that are involved with this 964 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:13,880 Speaker 1: viral hemorrhagic Fever Consortium, and the work done there was 965 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: increasingly done on dangerous viruses, particularly after people may remember 966 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:23,240 Speaker 1: the anthrax attacks of two thousand and two. Turnoba emphasizes 967 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,319 Speaker 1: this Seraalonian journalists that there was a spike in that 968 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:33,680 Speaker 1: activity and massive funding for work on dangerous viruses and 969 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 1: pathogens during that period, So we know that it was 970 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 1: working on deadly pathogens and we know that that they 971 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,360 Speaker 1: had safety issues. There were statements by some of the 972 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 1: scientists there saying, you know, well, we can get so 973 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,960 Speaker 1: much work done here than we could in the United 974 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: States because the safety concerns are not onerous from that 975 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,120 Speaker 1: point of view. They don't have to be in a 976 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,040 Speaker 1: bs L four lab and be in a you know, 977 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,000 Speaker 1: spacesuit kind of thing. So from their point of view, 978 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,799 Speaker 1: it's so much easier to do this kind of dangerous 979 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 1: not not cost free yet Jonathan, to that second point, 980 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 1: how would you have a two month outbreak in in 981 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: Sierira leone that that doesn't get picked up? And what 982 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: did what did ms? What was MSF's response to that, Well, 983 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 1: the the simple answer to the first part is that, uh, 984 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 1: you know, the beginning of an outbreak, there are not 985 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 1: very many cases typically so and abola doesn't transmit that easily, 986 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,680 Speaker 1: so so it would be possible to miss it. In 987 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,399 Speaker 1: between that and the problems with diagnosing a bola, which 988 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:50,279 Speaker 1: especially in its early stages, looks like many other illnesses 989 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,160 Speaker 1: like we've seen like we've heard about malaria of cholera, 990 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: but they also this is an area of the of 991 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 1: West Africa that that is UH in which less of 992 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,520 Speaker 1: fever syndemics, So that's another disease that can be uh 993 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:09,319 Speaker 1: miss misattributed in this case. So so you have all 994 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:15,440 Speaker 1: these possible confusions and what ms FUH discovered when they 995 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,440 Speaker 1: went to the lab and also the World Health organizations, 996 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,840 Speaker 1: a series of organizations went to the lab after the 997 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 1: outbreak started. This is the Viral Hemorrhagic Fever Consortium Lab 998 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: in Kenema in Sierra Leone, and they went there and 999 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:33,919 Speaker 1: they discovered all kinds of biosecurity breaches. There were allegations 1000 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,680 Speaker 1: of needles all over the floor, that they didn't have 1001 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:43,120 Speaker 1: UV decontamination procedures in place, and that samples were being 1002 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, reagents were being reused and so forth, and 1003 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,760 Speaker 1: we know that there was confusions. There was a group, 1004 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,600 Speaker 1: there's a there's a company called Metabiota, and there's a 1005 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,439 Speaker 1: viral hemorrhagic fever consortium that were basically operating the same 1006 00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,000 Speaker 1: premises but essentially ended up in conflict with each other. 1007 00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,960 Speaker 1: And this conflict seems to have started in confusion. But 1008 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:09,319 Speaker 1: there's also the possibility, exactly like COVID, that there is 1009 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,480 Speaker 1: a great benefit to anybody who leaks a lab to 1010 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,200 Speaker 1: confuse the data around the origins, because then it becomes 1011 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 1: impossible to re establish what actually where the chains of 1012 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,320 Speaker 1: the contact chains and the dates of diagnoses and so 1013 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: far of the people who first get beyond it. Have 1014 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,280 Speaker 1: you heard about this junk fees? Junk fees junk fees. 1015 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:39,280 Speaker 1: Biden wants to crack down on junk fees, unnecessary, unavoidable 1016 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 1: or surprise charges that inflate prices while adding little to 1017 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,160 Speaker 1: no value. But of all the junk fees, there is 1018 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,640 Speaker 1: one that is so malignant, so predatory. It's not just 1019 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,440 Speaker 1: an inflation of an advertised price. It's a fee you 1020 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 1: can only get when you were already completely broke. It 1021 00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 1: is the overdraft fee. I was eighteen, going to school 1022 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,400 Speaker 1: in the city, had maybe one hundred bucks in my account, 1023 00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,080 Speaker 1: bought lunch, coffee, train ticket back home. Check my bank 1024 00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,080 Speaker 1: account that night. Turns out I started that day with 1025 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,640 Speaker 1: a little less than I thought, and almost all of 1026 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 1: those purchases came with a thirty five dollars overdraft fee. 1027 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,440 Speaker 1: I was hundreds of dollars below zero, and I remember thinking, 1028 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,440 Speaker 1: whose idea was it to charge people, people who necessarily 1029 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 1: have no money, thirty five dollars over and over again. 1030 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: I assume someone whose childhood was spent vivisecting animals in 1031 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 1: the backyard, someone with a serial killer's penchant for cruelty. 1032 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,480 Speaker 1: That's the mind it would take to conceive of the 1033 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,680 Speaker 1: overdraft fee. Okay, so, in the time before debit cards, 1034 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,640 Speaker 1: when people wrote checks, if you wrote a check for 1035 00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 1: more than you had in your checking account, it would bounce, 1036 00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: you would be charged a fee, and if the money 1037 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: wasn't in your account the next day, you might even 1038 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,840 Speaker 1: be charged that fee again. Additionally, what if the thing 1039 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,560 Speaker 1: you were trying to pay for was rent or a 1040 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,560 Speaker 1: car payment, and you got charged a late fee on 1041 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 1: top of the fees for bouncing the check, So as 1042 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,600 Speaker 1: a courtesy, the bank would basically give you a very 1043 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,080 Speaker 1: short term loan. They don't call it alone. There's a 1044 00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,480 Speaker 1: good reason for that. But they would let you overdraw 1045 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,240 Speaker 1: your account by up to a few hundred dollars and 1046 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,760 Speaker 1: you would pay it back out of your next deposit. 1047 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,240 Speaker 1: This privilege was granted on a case by case basis 1048 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,440 Speaker 1: by actual people at the bank. They did the overdrafts 1049 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,720 Speaker 1: for people they knew, people they went to church with, 1050 00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,360 Speaker 1: and they decided whether to let your check bounce or 1051 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,080 Speaker 1: let you overdraft and give you a loan. But it's 1052 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: not alone. Then in nineteen ninety four, this guy, Bill Shrunk, 1053 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,800 Speaker 1: banking consultant from Texas, has this idea. It says, basically, 1054 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,200 Speaker 1: instead of doing this case by case, why don't we 1055 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,960 Speaker 1: just make this policy but not just that, you offer 1056 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,560 Speaker 1: truly free checking accounts, which would peel people away from 1057 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,160 Speaker 1: payday lenders, i e. People with not very much money, 1058 01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 1: the same people who are the most likely to overdraw 1059 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,880 Speaker 1: their account. Strung says with this policy, banks could make 1060 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,560 Speaker 1: sixty dollars a year more per customer. Now, how can 1061 01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:16,720 Speaker 1: it be called free checking if you get charged overdraft fees. See, 1062 01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:19,280 Speaker 1: a bank makes more money from people who are broke 1063 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,919 Speaker 1: than from people who aren't. A customer who's charged one 1064 01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,720 Speaker 1: non sufficient funds fee per month generates as much profitability 1065 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,600 Speaker 1: for lenders as one maintaining a twelve thousand dollars average balance. 1066 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,240 Speaker 1: They taught lenders how to order the processing of consumer 1067 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,880 Speaker 1: transactions to maximize overdraft fees. So what they would do 1068 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,640 Speaker 1: is they would put through bigger purchases first, so you 1069 01:00:41,760 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 1: hit zero faster. And with debit cards, which are just 1070 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,040 Speaker 1: electronic checks, it became even easier to charge your card 1071 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 1: overdraft and do it even a couple times before you 1072 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,160 Speaker 1: realize you're out of money. Now, the same reason they 1073 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: don't call it alone is the same reason they're allowed 1074 01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,040 Speaker 1: to call those checking accounts free. There is something called 1075 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,920 Speaker 1: the Truth in the Lending Act, which requires full disclosure 1076 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,560 Speaker 1: of the terms and conditions of finance charges and credit transactions. 1077 01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,520 Speaker 1: So if you overdraft on a five dollars item, i e. 1078 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,480 Speaker 1: They loan you five dollars and you pay a thirty 1079 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,760 Speaker 1: five dollars fee, that's an insanely high interest rate on 1080 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,360 Speaker 1: a five dollars loan. Therefore, they don't call it alone, 1081 01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:49,040 Speaker 1: but rather a non contractual courtesy. The overdraft fee is 1082 01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,560 Speaker 1: simply a handling fee, and a handling fee isn't subject 1083 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,440 Speaker 1: to the Truth in Lending Act. And since the overdraft 1084 01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,080 Speaker 1: fee isn't in your actual fee schedule, you could still 1085 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 1: advertise free checking and it didn't violate TILA. So Strunk 1086 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:07,800 Speaker 1: and the other consultants pushing for these overdraft policies clearly 1087 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:13,280 Speaker 1: crafted predatory policy. But even Strunk didn't anticipate where it 1088 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,120 Speaker 1: was going to go seven eight nine charges in a 1089 01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 1: day on a debt's abusive I agree with that overdrafting 1090 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 1: made banks thirty four billion dollars a year by two 1091 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,080 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Now think all of that money came 1092 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 1: from people whose checking accounts fell below zero. So in 1093 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, the overdraft fee is finally beginning 1094 01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:37,280 Speaker 1: to unravel a little bit. Suddenly, the banks had to 1095 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,360 Speaker 1: offer the option to opt in or out. But remember 1096 01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:45,080 Speaker 1: the overdraft fees are the reason for the free checking accounts. 1097 01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,600 Speaker 1: So what happens to free checking accounts? A number of 1098 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,920 Speaker 1: banks have modified their policies on which customers qualify for 1099 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:56,000 Speaker 1: free checking. The most likely reason banks are hoping checking 1100 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: account fees will help offset the loss of extremely profitable 1101 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,760 Speaker 1: overdraft fees. The banks have no incentive anymore to provide 1102 01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,880 Speaker 1: actually free checking. It was always just a way to 1103 01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,520 Speaker 1: lure people into your bank who were more likely to overdraft, 1104 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,200 Speaker 1: so you could charge them overdraft fees. And I mean 1105 01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,439 Speaker 1: you can still get free checking, but usually it comes 1106 01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:18,680 Speaker 1: with some kind of stipulation, like you have to maintain 1107 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,160 Speaker 1: a fifteen hundred dollars balance. Okay, So fortunately banks have 1108 01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,800 Speaker 1: taken a hit on overdraft fees, but in twenty twenty one, 1109 01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,920 Speaker 1: banks still made over eight billion dollars in these fees, 1110 01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: eighty percent of which coming from the bottom nine percent 1111 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,120 Speaker 1: of accounts. These people are paying ten or more overdraft 1112 01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:39,200 Speaker 1: fees a year, So to some extent, the jig is 1113 01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 1: up more scrutiny from Biden, and the CFPB is putting 1114 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,760 Speaker 1: even more heat on this thing that people already despise. 1115 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,600 Speaker 1: So you have people like Jamie diamond saying they may 1116 01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:53,240 Speaker 1: be late to the show, but if it's appropriate, we're 1117 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: going to make a bunch of changes. Well, overdraft fees 1118 01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,480 Speaker 1: only make a couple percent of JP Morgan's income. For 1119 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,800 Speaker 1: others like TD Bank, overdraft fees are a whole quarter 1120 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,320 Speaker 1: of their income. But no bank wants to be regulated 1121 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:11,720 Speaker 1: at all, and they certainly don't want to be forced 1122 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:16,440 Speaker 1: to take these fees totally off the table. So vampires 1123 01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:20,680 Speaker 1: sustain themselves by sucking the life force from regular living humans. 1124 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,640 Speaker 1: And the most efficient way to extract vital fluid from 1125 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,600 Speaker 1: the most souls is actually by working at a banking 1126 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,720 Speaker 1: trade group. And the banking trade groups love playing up 1127 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,280 Speaker 1: the idea that the banks are providing some kind of 1128 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,240 Speaker 1: service by letting people overdraft. The term junk fee is 1129 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,760 Speaker 1: overly broad and ignores the needs of low income and 1130 01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,880 Speaker 1: middle income consumers. Consumers use overdraft protection as a safety net, 1131 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,560 Speaker 1: protecting them from life's challenges. Biden's statements fail to recognize 1132 01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,800 Speaker 1: that some Americans rely on bank products like overdraft to 1133 01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:55,360 Speaker 1: pay their bills. Wow, these banks are kind of like 1134 01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,360 Speaker 1: charities or something. But obviously the issue isn't the courtesy 1135 01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,320 Speaker 1: of letting some one overdraft. No one's trying to end that. 1136 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,840 Speaker 1: The issue is that they charge a maddeningly high fee 1137 01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:10,000 Speaker 1: to people who just spent their last dollar. So where 1138 01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,200 Speaker 1: are we with this? Where's it going to go? The 1139 01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,360 Speaker 1: White House just released a guide on what states can 1140 01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:18,000 Speaker 1: do to address junk fees. The CFPB, the Consumer Financial 1141 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:21,400 Speaker 1: Protection Bureau, is on this. That's a constant project of theirs, 1142 01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,280 Speaker 1: and it's true that banks are extracting less of this 1143 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,320 Speaker 1: money now than anytime in the last twenty years. But 1144 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,480 Speaker 1: I'll say this. In Canada, overdraft fees are capped at 1145 01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,600 Speaker 1: five Canadian dollars, which is about three fifty US, and 1146 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:39,520 Speaker 1: they're only allowed once a day. But meaningful reform like 1147 01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,520 Speaker 1: that is probably not worth holding your breath over because, 1148 01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:46,000 Speaker 1: as was just reaffirmed by the whole Silicon Valley Bank episode, 1149 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:51,160 Speaker 1: financial relief is typically reserved for the wealthy, and that 1150 01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,360 Speaker 1: will do it for me. If you found this video interesting, 1151 01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,840 Speaker 1: make sure you are subscribed to Breaking Points. Of course, 1152 01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:58,640 Speaker 1: you can also check out my YouTube channel where I 1153 01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,800 Speaker 1: talk about media and politics and other interesting things. Lincoln description. 1154 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,480 Speaker 1: Liking and sharing always helps. Please do that. Thank you 1155 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,200 Speaker 1: to Breaking Points, Thank you so much for watching, and 1156 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 1: I will see you in the next one. I often 1157 01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:16,120 Speaker 1: say we're not a serious country, and a perfect example 1158 01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,280 Speaker 1: of that to me is TikTok. When you say it 1159 01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,520 Speaker 1: in the abstract, I know it sounds laughable, but in 1160 01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,120 Speaker 1: the height of peer competition with a malvolent foreign government. 1161 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,840 Speaker 1: We are allowing the most downloaded app in the United States, 1162 01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:31,160 Speaker 1: most used social media app, to be one controlled by 1163 01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,760 Speaker 1: that foreign adversary, an adversary which, by the way, specifically 1164 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,960 Speaker 1: does not allow US based social media companies to operate 1165 01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,880 Speaker 1: there under the belief that doing so would allow us 1166 01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,920 Speaker 1: to shape their population towards democratic norms and corrupt their society. 1167 01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,200 Speaker 1: Yet we have continued to let our society increasingly be 1168 01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,520 Speaker 1: reliant on set app, with no serious effort yet by 1169 01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,400 Speaker 1: both Trump and Biden to do what obviously needs to 1170 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,480 Speaker 1: be done. Just ban the damn app and be done 1171 01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:59,880 Speaker 1: with it. Well, Sager might just be getting his wish. 1172 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,040 Speaker 1: Congress has rolled out a new bill, a bipartisan bill. 1173 01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,560 Speaker 1: Whenever something is bipartisan, we should probably be paying close 1174 01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,240 Speaker 1: attention anyway. The bill is called the Restrict Act, which 1175 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,280 Speaker 1: would make it easier for the Biden administration to ban 1176 01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,680 Speaker 1: TikTok nationwide. First off, my name is James Lee. Thank 1177 01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,960 Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in to another segment of 1178 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,920 Speaker 1: fifty one to forty nine on Breaking Points, and today 1179 01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,440 Speaker 1: let's talk more about the potential ban of TikTok, a 1180 01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,760 Speaker 1: very very popular social media app owned by a Chinese 1181 01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,880 Speaker 1: company called ByteDance. Last month, the President said you wasn't 1182 01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,200 Speaker 1: sure if the US should ban TikTok when he was 1183 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,000 Speaker 1: asked about this. Now the administration seems to be hardening 1184 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,760 Speaker 1: its stance. You're backing this legislation, as you mentioned. You know, 1185 01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,440 Speaker 1: we've learned now warning that a possible ban could be 1186 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:49,680 Speaker 1: at risk. Here what changed. Look, the bottom line is 1187 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:53,160 Speaker 1: that when it comes to potential threats to our national security, 1188 01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to the safety of Americans, when it 1189 01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:58,880 Speaker 1: comes to their privacy, we're going to speak out and 1190 01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,160 Speaker 1: we're going to be very clear about that, and the 1191 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,959 Speaker 1: President has been the last two years. And so we're 1192 01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,880 Speaker 1: asking Congress to act. We're asking Congress to move forward 1193 01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:10,240 Speaker 1: with this bipartisan legislation to restrict at as I just mentioned, 1194 01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,480 Speaker 1: and we're going to continue to do so. So we 1195 01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,320 Speaker 1: are meant to believe that TikTok must be banned because 1196 01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,599 Speaker 1: it poses a major national security risk and is also 1197 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,000 Speaker 1: a risk to your personal privacy. And here's where I 1198 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,559 Speaker 1: completely agree with Sager and that we are not a 1199 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:27,360 Speaker 1: serious nation. Because I care about national security, I also 1200 01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,400 Speaker 1: care about privacy. But if we're being honest, is that 1201 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,480 Speaker 1: really the reason behind the bipartisan effort to ban TikTok. 1202 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,800 Speaker 1: This is from the Spanish newspaper El Pais quote. If 1203 01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:42,320 Speaker 1: we compare the data gathered by different platforms, Facebook surpasses TikTok. 1204 01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,360 Speaker 1: It knows the user's exact location at all times and 1205 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:49,959 Speaker 1: stores and processes all the information on the user's profile. Furthermore, 1206 01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:54,240 Speaker 1: prohibiting downloading TikTok may not prevent user data from ending 1207 01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:58,240 Speaker 1: up on Chinese servers. According to research published yesterday by Gizmoto, 1208 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,479 Speaker 1: the platform attains data from more than twenty eight thousand 1209 01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,719 Speaker 1: different applications. That's not only the case with TikTok. Many 1210 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,679 Speaker 1: social networks also obtained information through third parties using cookies. 1211 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:13,559 Speaker 1: Because Moto also revealed three years ago that Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Gmail, 1212 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:17,080 Speaker 1: Snapchat and other apps put us user data at risk, 1213 01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:20,000 Speaker 1: just like TikTok, because they all have deals with Chinese 1214 01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:24,479 Speaker 1: ad tech companies. Unfortunately, data is now a commodity any person, 1215 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:28,360 Speaker 1: any company, any nation, including China, if they wanted to 1216 01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:31,120 Speaker 1: have access to our data, they could just go out 1217 01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:33,880 Speaker 1: and buy it. It is all for sale. So it 1218 01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,840 Speaker 1: seems to me like if we are actually serious about 1219 01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:40,120 Speaker 1: national security, we should look at not only TikTok, but 1220 01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:44,960 Speaker 1: also Meta, Google, Twitter, Snap, basically every other company who 1221 01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,000 Speaker 1: is also pillaging our data for profit and privacy. The 1222 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,760 Speaker 1: US is one of only a handful of countries that 1223 01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,280 Speaker 1: still lacks a blanket data protection law, and forty seven 1224 01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,920 Speaker 1: of the fifty states have weak or non existent consumer 1225 01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,240 Speaker 1: data privacy laws. So now they aren't serious about protecting 1226 01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:06,120 Speaker 1: our privacy either. It's just odd. You can say it's irony, 1227 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,880 Speaker 1: maybe something more subversive, but the fact that is, they 1228 01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,479 Speaker 1: are spending tons of political energy to ban the most 1229 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,960 Speaker 1: popular social media app in America because it's supposedly so 1230 01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,360 Speaker 1: important to protect our privacy. Yet they are unable or 1231 01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:23,400 Speaker 1: unwilling to pass a national privacy law. So what's really 1232 01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,599 Speaker 1: going on? Truth there is, with one hundred million Americans 1233 01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,439 Speaker 1: daily on TikTok on an average of ninety minutes a day, 1234 01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,040 Speaker 1: this is an issue. I imagine most of you would 1235 01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:35,840 Speaker 1: like your networks to get ninety minutes a day from 1236 01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,639 Speaker 1: one hundred million Americans. That is a quiet, part out 1237 01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,440 Speaker 1: loud moment. Senator Mark Warner, one of the co sponsors 1238 01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:44,920 Speaker 1: of the Restrict Act. Underlying all of this talk of 1239 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,880 Speaker 1: national security privacy protection is an inescapable tenant of the 1240 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,519 Speaker 1: free market competition in which there is a winner and 1241 01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,719 Speaker 1: there is a loser, and TikTok is eating everybody's lunch. 1242 01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,160 Speaker 1: So the House has approved the bill that would give 1243 01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,320 Speaker 1: the president the ability to ban ticknok. What's interesting about 1244 01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:05,120 Speaker 1: this are the rumors circulating about why here's the quick rundown. 1245 01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,759 Speaker 1: For the past few years, we have witnessed Google slash YouTube, 1246 01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:13,080 Speaker 1: Instagram slash Facebook slash Meta fights for their lives to 1247 01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:17,439 Speaker 1: compete with TikTok. It's true, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube have been 1248 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,439 Speaker 1: hemorrhaging users to TikTok, which is now the number one 1249 01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:23,360 Speaker 1: social media app in terms of average time spent on 1250 01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,519 Speaker 1: the platform. YouTube you can see it down four percent 1251 01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:29,320 Speaker 1: year over year, Facebook down nine percent, TikTok is up 1252 01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:32,400 Speaker 1: nineteen percent year over year, Instagram up two percent. So 1253 01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,559 Speaker 1: more or less, flat one is going up like a 1254 01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,280 Speaker 1: rocket ship. The others are all taking a nosedive, and 1255 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure the shareholders are not too happy. So 1256 01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:43,719 Speaker 1: now Facebook is pulling out the big guns. Facebook hired 1257 01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:48,839 Speaker 1: a company to do a calculated smear campaign against TikTok. 1258 01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,960 Speaker 1: The idea was to plant negative ideas of TikTok in 1259 01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,519 Speaker 1: the minds of political leaders. The name of the company 1260 01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,439 Speaker 1: is Target Victory, and they contracted with dozens of PR 1261 01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:01,320 Speaker 1: firms across the US to sway public opinion and against TikTok. 1262 01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,879 Speaker 1: They planted stories casting TikTok as a threat to children 1263 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,200 Speaker 1: and pushing to draw political reporters and local politicians into 1264 01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:11,759 Speaker 1: helping them take down their biggest competitor, aka TikTok, paying 1265 01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 1: special attention to target key congressional districts. So here we are, 1266 01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:18,559 Speaker 1: we're inching closer to the day where we see that 1267 01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:23,200 Speaker 1: it's possible for Meta to literally obliterate their biggest competition 1268 01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:30,120 Speaker 1: by means of propaganda and subconsciously planted political influence. Not bad. 1269 01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,920 Speaker 1: I've found that on TikTok. She did make it sound 1270 01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,960 Speaker 1: kind of conspiratorial, but it's all very transparent and it's 1271 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,960 Speaker 1: really not too hard to connect all the dots. March 1272 01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:43,759 Speaker 1: first article from CNBC TikTok's potential ban in US could 1273 01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,880 Speaker 1: be booned for Meta and Snap. A TikTok ban in 1274 01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,880 Speaker 1: the US could benefit digital ad companies including Meta, Snap, 1275 01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and Google. The US House Foreign Affairs Committee on Tuesday 1276 01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:56,200 Speaker 1: took up legislation that would give President Joe Biden the 1277 01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:00,479 Speaker 1: authority to ban TikTok, Meta and snapshares rallied on to Tuesday. 1278 01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,320 Speaker 1: We just live and die by that share price, don't we? 1279 01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:06,360 Speaker 1: And according to a March ninth article in Yahoo Finance, 1280 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:10,559 Speaker 1: meta alphabet appears safe from regulatory action in twenty twenty 1281 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:14,680 Speaker 1: three as TikTok band gain steam coincidence, I think not. 1282 01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:19,920 Speaker 1: There's no way a group of billionaires could control the 1283 01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:29,360 Speaker 1: polybureau as billionaires control American policymaking. So in China you 1284 01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:33,360 Speaker 1: have a vibran market economy, but capital does not rise 1285 01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:42,960 Speaker 1: above political authority. Capital does not have enshrined rights. In America, capital, 1286 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,160 Speaker 1: the interest of capital, and capital itself has risen above 1287 01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:52,840 Speaker 1: the American nation. The political authority cannot check the power 1288 01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,080 Speaker 1: of capital. Wow. That short summary credit Eric Lee, a 1289 01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,880 Speaker 1: Chinese VC and political scientist. But that short summary character 1290 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:04,920 Speaker 1: the difference between American and Chinese capitalism helps crystallize this 1291 01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:08,920 Speaker 1: whole banning TikTok situation in America. Because the interests of 1292 01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:12,160 Speaker 1: capital have usurped the interests of the nation as a whole, 1293 01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,960 Speaker 1: the American government is unable to adequately protect the privacy 1294 01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:19,360 Speaker 1: or security of its citizens, because doing so, in this 1295 01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:23,400 Speaker 1: case would necessarily threaten the financial interests of the ruling class. 1296 01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:27,760 Speaker 1: Data is now considered the new gold and is a 1297 01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,599 Speaker 1: giant revenue stream not only within big tech, but every 1298 01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,599 Speaker 1: major corporation. So they, meaning the politicians, have shown no 1299 01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:37,599 Speaker 1: ability to pass any federal privacy laws. They have shown 1300 01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,920 Speaker 1: no ability to tell Meta or Google, hey, the data, 1301 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:44,080 Speaker 1: It's not yours to sell. Opposite for the people who 1302 01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,200 Speaker 1: argue that TikTok is a harmless platform, one that exists 1303 01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:50,640 Speaker 1: for your benefits. Hi, everyone is show here. I'm the 1304 01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:54,200 Speaker 1: CEO of TikTok. I'm here in Washington, DC today and 1305 01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,880 Speaker 1: I have some news and updates to share with everyone 1306 01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,599 Speaker 1: here today. I'm super excited to announce that more than 1307 01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:04,000 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty million Americans on TikTok. That's almost 1308 01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:08,000 Speaker 1: half of the US coming to TikTok to connect, to create, 1309 01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:10,840 Speaker 1: to share, to learn, or just to have some fun. 1310 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:14,160 Speaker 1: Now this comes at a pivotal moment for us. Some 1311 01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:18,040 Speaker 1: politicians have started talking about banning TikTok. Now, this could 1312 01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:20,799 Speaker 1: take TikTok away from all one hundred and fifty million 1313 01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:23,719 Speaker 1: of you. I'll be testifying before Congress later this week 1314 01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,240 Speaker 1: to share all that we're doing to protect Americans using 1315 01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:30,440 Speaker 1: the app and deliver on a mission to inspire creativity 1316 01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:33,400 Speaker 1: and to bring joy. That's just the CEO saying CEO 1317 01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:37,040 Speaker 1: type things, because, as you heard, for the Chinese, no 1318 01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:42,200 Speaker 1: societal interests, certainly no humanitarian interests, and no economic interests, 1319 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,960 Speaker 1: no matter how lucrative, is more important than the interest 1320 01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:48,360 Speaker 1: of the CCP. It doesn't matter what kind of data 1321 01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:52,679 Speaker 1: security infrastructure TikTok has supposedly put in place, or how 1322 01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:56,440 Speaker 1: many times the CEO of TikTok can assure and reassure 1323 01:15:56,479 --> 01:16:00,559 Speaker 1: Congress and whoever else that TikTok is just a harmless 1324 01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:05,080 Speaker 1: platform that exists only to inspire creativity or to spread joy. 1325 01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:09,240 Speaker 1: None of that holds any water. If President She wants 1326 01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,320 Speaker 1: that data, the company will give him that data. Just 1327 01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:15,519 Speaker 1: ask every other Chinese CEO billionaire who has had their 1328 01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,640 Speaker 1: own ideas. Oh wait, you can't because they have been disappeared. 1329 01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:23,599 Speaker 1: So I guess I'm not saying that TikTok shouldn't be banned. 1330 01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:27,040 Speaker 1: I just think that when we hear about a bipartisan bill, 1331 01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:31,000 Speaker 1: when we have evidence of a coordinated media blitz. When 1332 01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,920 Speaker 1: we see just how much money, how much capital, is 1333 01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,640 Speaker 1: at stake, it would probably behoove all of us to 1334 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:40,559 Speaker 1: look deeper to see if another narrative exists, perhaps one 1335 01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,760 Speaker 1: that is suppressed, to hopefully arrive at a conclusion that 1336 01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:47,040 Speaker 1: is probably closer to the truth, so we can make 1337 01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:50,559 Speaker 1: an informed decision, such as which platform she wouldn't be on, 1338 01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,559 Speaker 1: or maybe none at all. But to make a decision 1339 01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,599 Speaker 1: that is truly ours, in our best interest, in your 1340 01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:59,439 Speaker 1: best interest, whatever you think that might be, instead of 1341 01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:03,320 Speaker 1: somebody telling us what is or isn't in our best 1342 01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:07,040 Speaker 1: interests and making that decision for us. That is all 1343 01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,040 Speaker 1: for me this time. I hope you found today's segment 1344 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:11,920 Speaker 1: about TikTok to be helpful. What are your thoughts? I 1345 01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:15,120 Speaker 1: would encourage you to share in the comments below. Also, 1346 01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:18,000 Speaker 1: if you enjoy these breakdowns, I make a ton more 1347 01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:20,720 Speaker 1: videos like this on my channel fifty one forty nine 1348 01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:23,960 Speaker 1: with James Lee on YouTube. I would also encourage you 1349 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,080 Speaker 1: to check that out and subscribe. It just takes a 1350 01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,400 Speaker 1: couple of clicks and helps me out so much. The 1351 01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:30,760 Speaker 1: link will be in the description below. Of course, keep 1352 01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:33,080 Speaker 1: on tuning into breaking points and thank you so much 1353 01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:33,840 Speaker 1: for your time today,