1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Smantha.

2
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:08,480
Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by

3
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode

4
00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 2: that was near and dear to me women climbing mountains

5
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:31,319
Speaker 2: because I went down a wild rabbit hole during the

6
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,479
Speaker 2: pandemic and I actually got sucked back into it again

7
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,120
Speaker 2: like a year later.

8
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 3: Did our recent famous around the world kind of bring

9
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,279
Speaker 3: you in a little bit because we talked about our

10
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,640
Speaker 3: recent glaciologist who was mountain climbing for her studies.

11
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: Yes, it was part of it.

12
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,760
Speaker 2: I mean that actually came later than the second rabbit hole,

13
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,000
Speaker 2: but it's like it's always there.

14
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 1: Waiting to pull me back, because yes, it's just so fascinating.

15
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,080
Speaker 1: I love it.

16
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 2: I don't know quite why, but I love it. Adventures

17
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:16,319
Speaker 2: adventures maybe yeah, the danger it's dangerous. Well, please enjoy

18
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 2: this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and

19
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,160
Speaker 2: aw coome to stuff I Never told you Protection of iHeartRadio,

20
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 2: and today we're taking a bit of a break. It

21
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 2: wasn't intentional from the dark news of day to talk

22
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 2: about mountaineering and not to say that we aren't going

23
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,960
Speaker 2: to talk about some dark things.

24
00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 1: So I guess this is your content warning.

25
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,760
Speaker 2: I think it's nothing major, but we are going to

26
00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,440
Speaker 2: be talking about death in mountaineering.

27
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 1: And so this kind of came about because I recently.

28
00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 2: Went down a mountaineering rabbit hole because of a free

29
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,079
Speaker 2: Paramount Plus trial. I could go into the details, I won't,

30
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,720
Speaker 2: but basically I ended up watching a lot of documentaries

31
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 2: about mountaineering.

32
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: I have so many mountaineering facts.

33
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 2: I'm very surprised I did not bombard you with them

34
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 2: the last time we hung out, because I've the last

35
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,240
Speaker 2: few times i've been out with people and I've had

36
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:24,640
Speaker 2: a couple of.

37
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,200
Speaker 1: Drinks, I'm like, do you know about the des zone.

38
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: It's it's ridiculous.

39
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,679
Speaker 4: Bt Doves. Paramount Plus is not a sponsor for me.

40
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,880
Speaker 2: They are not a not currently, not currently, but hey.

41
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 4: I need a subscription, so if you want to.

42
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 2: Well that's the thing, I'm such a cheapskate. When I

43
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,080
Speaker 2: get the free trial, I watch things I would never

44
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,600
Speaker 2: watch otherwise. And this is how this happened. I wouldn't

45
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,440
Speaker 2: have watched these documentaries otherwise. I did enjoy them, clearly.

46
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you're like, guess what we're gonna do

47
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 3: an episode of Mountain And I was like, oh, okay,

48
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 3: here we go. I was like, have you heard about

49
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 3: the desta You're like what you did not ask me that?

50
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: Yes, but you were surprised when I told you that

51
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,040
Speaker 1: I've been on this mountaineering rabbit.

52
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,040
Speaker 3: Not as surprised because your mind is unique and like

53
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,360
Speaker 3: to go down mountains.

54
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure likes to go down mountains. My mind is unique,

55
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 1: thank you.

56
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,400
Speaker 2: And I actually have been mountaineering, Okay, not in anything

57
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 2: like this that we're specifically going to.

58
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 1: Talk about, but I have climbed.

59
00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 2: Uh. I have had to deal with a climatization and

60
00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 2: altitude poisoning.

61
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: Actually, oh wow, of course, Oh it's horrible. Don't recommend it.

62
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 2: But I watched these documentaries and I couldn't stop thinking

63
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 2: about the mindset of climbing a mountain. When the death

64
00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 2: rate is one four, which is what it is for

65
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 2: K two, I think, oh, look.

66
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 1: My mountaineering facts. They're coming to us. Here we go.

67
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,600
Speaker 2: However, I do want to point out because a lot

68
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 2: of mountaineers, I really don't want to do you in

69
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 2: justice if you're listening, say that like statistics numbers wise,

70
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 2: and we can argue about like the mindset specifically, but

71
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 2: you're actually more likely to die in.

72
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: A cra accident.

73
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,880
Speaker 2: But anyway, I think that's more of a numbers game

74
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 2: than and anyway I'm getting I'm already going off trail.

75
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,159
Speaker 2: But when asked about like why would you climb Mount Everest,

76
00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 2: famous British britishman George Lee Mallory, who is one of

77
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,720
Speaker 2: the first to summit, if not the first to summit

78
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,000
Speaker 2: Mount Everest, said because it's there and so here we are,

79
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 2: here we are.

80
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,240
Speaker 3: I feel like that's a lot of people like really

81
00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 3: have this level of seeing it and like, yes, I

82
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,600
Speaker 3: want because it's not it's dangerous, and it's it's so

83
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,160
Speaker 3: like incredibly hard to train. People don't understand all of that,

84
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 3: and it seems doable. So that's I'm going to climb

85
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 3: my Mount Everest, or I'm going to climb Machu Pichu,

86
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 3: like all of these amazing destinations without understanding the true

87
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 3: like behind the scenes of it. Just doing the at

88
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 3: twelve the Appalachi is pretty difficult, but it's not the

89
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,359
Speaker 3: level as you know again Mount Everest, Mancha Picci like that,

90
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 3: there's a whole different level mindset, but it seems attainable

91
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 3: because if you can walk for those who are able

92
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,560
Speaker 3: body enough to walk or even access a trail.

93
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like this could be something.

94
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you ever thought about it?

95
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,480
Speaker 3: I think I had actually said I was going to

96
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,600
Speaker 3: climb something. I forgot which one it is. I'm pret

97
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,560
Speaker 3: sure it wasn't Mount Everest, because I was like, I

98
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 3: know better than that, but because I also love hiking

99
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 3: and a long going hot I like, again, this is

100
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 3: one of the things, like I can walk, sure, so.

101
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 4: Let me try to do this.

102
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 3: I love hiking, I love seeing great views, and I

103
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 3: don't mind backpacking, so let's try this. Because I definitely

104
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 3: can't rock climb. You know, I'm like, well, I thought

105
00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 3: about skydiving, but that seems a little even more perilous

106
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,719
Speaker 3: in my head, like all of that. So I'm sure

107
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,719
Speaker 3: I have and you know, it's kind of that old

108
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,480
Speaker 3: like mid life crisis.

109
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 4: I'm going to climb on top of the mountain.

110
00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:02,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I've thought about it, but never seriously,

111
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,719
Speaker 2: or at least Everest, because I did do whatever. I

112
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 2: can't even remember the mountains name, but I have pictures

113
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:15,560
Speaker 2: and it looks great. But I don't think I ever

114
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 2: seriously considered it, and that surprises a lot of people,

115
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 2: and I tell them because I guess I'm kind of

116
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 2: like I'm making like a finger gun motion.

117
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:34,080
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, it's finger guns. Excuse you, no, geez,

118
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 1: so important.

119
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:36,840
Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about We're going to talk

120
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,600
Speaker 2: about a lot of accessibility issues, and of course we're

121
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,600
Speaker 2: gonna keep this intersectional as we want to do. Uh

122
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 2: And because of that, like I know, people get really

123
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 2: riled up about this.

124
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 1: So I'm going to start with a lot of disclaimers.

125
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,240
Speaker 2: Okay, so we are not going to really touch on

126
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,599
Speaker 2: the environmental impacts and a harm that the commercialization of

127
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 2: mountaineering has done, but we do want to acknowledge that

128
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:01,039
Speaker 2: is a.

129
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 1: Big part of the conversation and it should be.

130
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,599
Speaker 2: And also never ever ever want to undervalue the work

131
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,080
Speaker 2: of the surpas and high altitude porters who honestly make

132
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 2: it possible for most folks in this commercialization space and

133
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,800
Speaker 2: have risk serialized and sometimes died, especially when it comes

134
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,720
Speaker 2: to yes, this capitalizing climbing of mountains and government policies

135
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 2: that place profits over safety, but also the systems of

136
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 2: poverty that might make that an option considered in the

137
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 2: first place. This is not that podcast that does exist,

138
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,120
Speaker 2: because I have listened to it, I have watched it,

139
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 2: and I think that.

140
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,680
Speaker 1: Is an incredibly important part of all this, and that's.

141
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 2: Why we had to mention it at the top, even

142
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,760
Speaker 2: though that's not really what we're talking about today. Also

143
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 2: want to mention plenty of indigenous peoples and regions with

144
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 2: these mountains regularly transverse high altitudes. Maybe not summiting, but

145
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 2: worth mentioning, because a lot of the people we're talking

146
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,440
Speaker 2: about are kind of like getting to the top, taking

147
00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 2: the picture going down when.

148
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:00,720
Speaker 1: Other people might be doing it all the time, or

149
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: like something close.

150
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things that I've been seeing

151
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 3: on social media slash techtok is definitely a lot of

152
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 3: Native Haaians being like, please stop doing this. You don't

153
00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 3: know what you're doing, and you're causing dangers and then

154
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 3: becoming a whole risk and then having our people look

155
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 3: like the enemies for telling you not to do this,

156
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 3: and then also the enemies when we're like, we're not

157
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 3: going to risk our lives because you did something that

158
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 3: we told you not to do.

159
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, with everything we talk about, I

160
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 2: would just encourage everyone to do your research and to

161
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 2: be respectful and yeah, there's a safety question in this,

162
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 2: and you should take that very seriously because other people's

163
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,679
Speaker 2: lives and well beings are on the line other than yours.

164
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,000
Speaker 2: Another thing worth mentioning mountaineering is oftentimes, but not always,

165
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,720
Speaker 2: extremely inaccessible in terms of price of equipment and of travel,

166
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 2: So that's something of So a lot of the stories

167
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,679
Speaker 2: about mountaineering, and especially around tragedy in these situations are

168
00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,560
Speaker 2: a bit muddled for a number of reasons, and we

169
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 2: are going to talk about one specific case, but so

170
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,160
Speaker 2: just keep that in mind and final disclaimer, we are

171
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,480
Speaker 2: not experts, and please do not yell at us. I

172
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,839
Speaker 2: know commercial climbing really gets people angry, and I get it.

173
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,480
Speaker 2: We're doing more of a history of women who have

174
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,400
Speaker 2: climbed mountains and also occurrent I'll look at what's going

175
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 2: on right now. And also we are sticking to basic

176
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,439
Speaker 2: mountaineering facts when it comes to the women we're talking about,

177
00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 2: So it could be they have something less than savory

178
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,040
Speaker 2: in their past.

179
00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:36,680
Speaker 1: It could be that they're worth talking about more.

180
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,160
Speaker 2: And if you know more about that, please let us know,

181
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,479
Speaker 2: because clearly I'm eager.

182
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 1: For mountaineering facts. I'm like just ready to receive them.

183
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,040
Speaker 4: He's ready for trivia.

184
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: Let's go.

185
00:09:47,960 --> 00:10:03,720
Speaker 2: I am, I am imm all right, So let's start

186
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 2: with the definition. What is mountaineering exactly? Well, actually, huh.

187
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,960
Speaker 2: It is not as simple as you think and is

188
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 2: up for debate. Most seem to agree that it typically

189
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 2: involves traversing snow and possibly ice and glaciers to reach

190
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 2: a summit, which is called summitting. Others define it as

191
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 2: scaling a mountain. Sometimes rock climbing does get roped into it.

192
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 2: I think we're more specifically talking about summitting, ice, snow,

193
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,199
Speaker 2: glaciers involved, though, So.

194
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 4: Would Tom Cruise be a mountaineer.

195
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 1: The question of the podcast.

196
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 2: I would love if I became like you know how

197
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,560
Speaker 2: on trivia teams you have like your sports person, you're

198
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 2: like music person.

199
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,240
Speaker 1: I would love if I was a mountain I bet

200
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 1: he is, Yes, I bet he.

201
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,680
Speaker 3: Well, I just wondered because I just remember that picture

202
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,640
Speaker 3: of him like hanging from the edge, and I know

203
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,600
Speaker 3: that that's free climbing essentially, but I'm guessing it's probably

204
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,680
Speaker 3: roped up into this. Again, people need to be trained.

205
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 3: I cannot emphasize this enough. People really do things on

206
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,320
Speaker 3: a silly idea and not researching it heavily.

207
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 4: Please don't do this.

208
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 3: So, of course, numbers are sort of hard to track,

209
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 3: but according to some data from the Outdoor Industry Association,

210
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,320
Speaker 3: there are about two million climbers in the US, and

211
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,319
Speaker 3: as far as women, we couldn't find a general number,

212
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 3: but data from specific mountains in the case, it ranges

213
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 3: from ten to twenty percent, but has been on the rise.

214
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,719
Speaker 2: Yes, and since the first known summit of Everest in

215
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty three, only about eight percent of those who

216
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,800
Speaker 2: have summited Everest have been women. Many women have reported

217
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,439
Speaker 2: misogyny and getting questioned at every turn. And I will

218
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 2: say researching this, I found a lot of troubling. I

219
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,080
Speaker 2: have an anxiety around articles that go to a strictly

220
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 2: biological sense.

221
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,840
Speaker 1: Oh right, why things are the way they are?

222
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 2: That makes me really yeah, that makes me really nervous.

223
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,000
Speaker 2: There are a lot about this. A lot of them

224
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,680
Speaker 2: say women and men evolved equally to be able to

225
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,840
Speaker 2: summit mountains, and there were scientific articles about that, but

226
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,040
Speaker 2: I just felt really uncomfortable talking about it, to be honest.

227
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 2: But they do it right, Okay, So let's get into

228
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,360
Speaker 2: some history, and this one is kind of a mess.

229
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to be straightforward, that's kind of a mess.

230
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 2: But I think we've got it wrangled up where it's

231
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,960
Speaker 2: it's going to be interesting. It's got quite a few

232
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,679
Speaker 2: intersecting threads. So let's start with alpine mountaineering, which really

233
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,199
Speaker 2: took off during the nineteenth century, and the first men

234
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 2: to complete these climbs capture the attention, awe and ire

235
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,839
Speaker 2: of the publics of these alpine mountaineering.

236
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,600
Speaker 1: Perhaps I don't need to say it, but you know,

237
00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 1: climbing mountains in the Alps.

238
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 2: Women they also climbed these peaks, though unlesser numbers, but

239
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 2: with perhaps even more ire mm hmm.

240
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 3: So for a lot long time throughout history, mountaineering has

241
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 3: been traditionally and firmly in the domain of men. In fact,

242
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,200
Speaker 3: af Mummery, a Victorian mountaineer, claimed that mountains have three phases.

243
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,840
Speaker 3: They go through the inaccessible peak, the most difficult ascent

244
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,600
Speaker 3: in the Alps, and a quote an easy day for

245
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 3: a lady, implying that once a woman climbs it, anybody

246
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 3: can do it in the mountain loses it's allure and

247
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 3: it's no longer worthwhile.

248
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but Mummery himself knew that women could climb,

249
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,680
Speaker 2: He commented on Lily Bristow's eighteen ninety three climb of Grippon.

250
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,040
Speaker 2: Lucy Walker climbed the matter Horn in eighteen seventy one,

251
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 2: only six years after a man made the first ascent.

252
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 1: Mummery talked about.

253
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 2: That too, and his own wife, Mary was a skilled climber.

254
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,040
Speaker 2: Together they climbed two felscruts during a thunderstorm and something

255
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 2: of a mountaining as I think I'd made that up,

256
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 2: but now we're saying it a mountaining legend. But in

257
00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,680
Speaker 2: his mind, her participation lessened that a comp and the

258
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,280
Speaker 2: mountain itself. If a woman can do it, he thought,

259
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:08,959
Speaker 2: can't anybody, so therefore useless and as we've discussed in

260
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,559
Speaker 2: multiple episodes, including our look at Women in the Olympics,

261
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 2: Gym timidation and a History of Women Exercising, the early

262
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 2: twentieth century is when younger, middle class, typically white women

263
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 2: started playing certain sports, usually ones where it was believed

264
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 2: it was possible to remain lady like while playing them,

265
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,760
Speaker 2: aka you won't sweat and you can wear like a skirt.

266
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 2: As this was happening, male explorers were going to Antarctica

267
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 2: and planning to summitt Everest. Women and young girls not

268
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,480
Speaker 2: infrequently wrote to these explorers asking to join them on

269
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 2: their endeavors. Women in this realm were often well off

270
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 2: and or unmarried, and or ill that whole mountain air

271
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 2: saying like, go get some mountain air. They were often

272
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 2: in their thirties and forties when they got their start,

273
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,040
Speaker 2: and many were husband and wife teams, but a lot

274
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,440
Speaker 2: were sister teams or our friend. Women who did dare

275
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 2: to climb mountains with the men often caused somewhat of

276
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 2: an uproar. For instance, when Bristow shared a tent with

277
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 2: mail climbers, people who knew her raised their eyebrows. On

278
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 2: the other hand, when Gertrude Bell helped rescue some of

279
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 2: her fellow mail climbers, she was praised by the guide

280
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,239
Speaker 2: and others in the group. Women's clothing was still policed.

281
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: Some women climbed in skirts, while others made news by

282
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 2: climbing in pants. Wearing a skirt to climb was pretty

283
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 2: much always unsafe, so like while trying to summit the

284
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 2: matter Horn with her father in eighteen sixty seven, Felicite

285
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 2: Carell's skirts kept catching dangerously in the wind until eventually

286
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 2: she could go no further. The matter horns coal Felicitae

287
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 2: is named for her. Many women would wear a dress

288
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 2: from the hotel and then take it off at the

289
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 2: bottom of the mountain to make climbing easier and safer,

290
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,840
Speaker 2: or some variation of that, like maybe they would take

291
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 2: it off once they got started climbing.

292
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 1: Whatever.

293
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 2: A climber named missus Audrey leblond or Lizzie leblond On's

294
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 2: had to return to a summit when on the descent

295
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 2: they realized she realized she'd left her skirt there, so

296
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 2: they'd go back up.

297
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 3: Oh man, those damn scarves, the chafing alone.

298
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 1: On the sing alone. Yeah no, thank you.

299
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 3: So when the Alpine Club was founded in eighteen fifty seven,

300
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 3: they did not allow women as members.

301
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 4: Surprise.

302
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,160
Speaker 3: In response, women created the Ladies Alpine Club in nineteen

303
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 3: o seven. Leblon served as the first president. Congratulations and

304
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,320
Speaker 3: some did view mountaineering as somewhat of a feminist thing,

305
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 3: which is interesting.

306
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: Some viewed it as a feminist thing like women can

307
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: climb mountains too.

308
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 2: But others viewed it as like, look at those men

309
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:56,280
Speaker 2: climbing their mountains. Silly, it's interesting, So we did want

310
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,080
Speaker 2: to talk about some famous women mountaineers and some famous

311
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:04,719
Speaker 2: incidents involving women mountaineers. Again, this is really abbreviated and short,

312
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 2: so if you are interested, I'm like they are their

313
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,359
Speaker 2: fellow interested mountaineering people out there, please let us know

314
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,040
Speaker 2: and we can do a whole episode on it. And

315
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 2: we have mentioned some already, but we want to go

316
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 2: over a few more. One is Fanny Bullock Workman, who

317
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 2: was the first woman to ascend many peaks in the

318
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 2: Himalayas man or woman. In nineteen twelve. Bullock Workman was

319
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 2: photographed in the Himalayas holding a sign that read votes

320
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 2: for women, and she had a nemesis who I didn't include,

321
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,440
Speaker 2: who is also feminist, but they were nemeses, so that's interesting.

322
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 2: Then there's Miriam O'Brien. After O'Brien was told she needed

323
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 2: a man to show her where some it was, she

324
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 2: was infuriated and wrote, the one who goes up first

325
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,119
Speaker 2: on the rope has even more fun as he solves

326
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,480
Speaker 2: the immediate problems of technique, tactics, and strategy as they occur.

327
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,119
Speaker 2: I saw no reason why women ipso facto should be

328
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,239
Speaker 2: incapable of leading a good climb. They had, as a

329
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 2: matter of fact, already done so on some few scattered occasions.

330
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 2: But why not make it a regular thing on the

331
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 2: usual climbs of the day. I decided to try some

332
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 2: climbs and not only guideless, but manless. By the nineteen twenties,

333
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 2: she followed up on this promise. She and other women

334
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 2: without the Eight of Men completed many summits and many

335
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 2: first She even had an essay published an edition of

336
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,120
Speaker 2: National Geographic titled Manless Alpine Climbing, which is actually where

337
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 2: that quote is from myself.

338
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 4: I need to do like a theatrical reading of this.

339
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: Oh you're speaking my language, Samantha.

340
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 3: I'm just saying manless alpine climbing should be a reading

341
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 3: for us like this.

342
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:46,760
Speaker 4: I say, that's a great user, so good, so good. Yeah.

343
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,359
Speaker 3: So then there's also Alma Wagen Wagan Wagin. All right,

344
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 3: we're gonna say Wagan okay, And if someone knows they're

345
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 3: going to correct me, I know they will, and I

346
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 3: really want you to also. Fun fact, my great grandmother's

347
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,439
Speaker 3: name was Alma anyway, so she often gets the credit

348
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 3: as the first woman mountain guide in North America, and

349
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty three, she said, quote, there were places

350
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 3: to climb, and I wanted to teach other women.

351
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 4: The joy of climbing.

352
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 1: Yes.

353
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 3: Yes, And then we have Arlene bloom Bloom that the

354
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 3: first all women are sent on Annapurna. That was also

355
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 3: the first successful American attempt in nineteen seventy eight. Oh,

356
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 3: that's pretty recent. She was the first woman out of

357
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,880
Speaker 3: the US to try her hand at climbing Mount Everest,

358
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 3: and she was a member of the first all women

359
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 3: team to summit the NULLI.

360
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 1: Yes, and my mountaineering fact.

361
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,280
Speaker 2: Annapurna, I believe has been an is still the most

362
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 2: dangerous mountain to summit.

363
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 1: It has the highest death rate, so it's pretty easy. Yees.

364
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm speaking of This is kind of the darker part.

365
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,119
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about some death.

366
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,120
Speaker 2: I did want to include it because I hadn't heard

367
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 2: about it, and that was sort of the point the

368
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 2: article I was reading was making, was like, this was

369
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,199
Speaker 2: a huge tragedy, but because of a couple of political things,

370
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 2: but also because they were women, we don't hear about it.

371
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 2: The whole team was women, So just forewarning. In nineteen

372
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 2: seventy two, Elvira Chattevaya organized the first all women's climb

373
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 2: of a seven thousand meter peak, and this was not

374
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 2: by far her last time contributing to mountaineering history or

375
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 2: her first time so. In June nineteen seventy four, one

376
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy climbers from several different countries came together

377
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: in a mountaineering camp in the Premier Mountains and the

378
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 2: USSR but is now the border of Tajikistan and Kurdistan.

379
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 2: A many with a goal of climbing the over seven

380
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 2: thousand meter peak Lenin. This was a part of a

381
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: USSR hosted international events, and many of the organizers were

382
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 2: unsure about including women, but felt like having zero women

383
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't look good for them. It was meant to foster

384
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: a healthier relationship between the US and the USSR and

385
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: to promote mountaineering, especially to younger people. Most of the

386
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 2: climbers were going to ascend, or hoped to ascend, the

387
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 2: country's second highest peak when an.

388
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: Earthquake shruck shaken in more wayte than one. I did

389
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: not mean to make that fun.

390
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 2: After the earthquake, American climber Mollie Higgins reported turning a

391
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 2: corner and seeing a Russian woman, Chadavea, bossing around four

392
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 2: Russian men. She turned to Higgins and said, I am

393
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,880
Speaker 2: alviras Chadavea, I am master of sport.

394
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: What are you?

395
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 2: And master of sport was a top credential in USSR

396
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,479
Speaker 2: sport and rarely obtained by women at the time. Higgins

397
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: later said, I thought it was great. I didn't want

398
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 2: to be bossy like that, but here was a woman

399
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 2: who really was capable. I wanted to be like her.

400
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 2: That strong and that experienced, she was a heroine right there.

401
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: By many accounts, the women of this expedition generally stayed

402
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 2: on the Soviet side of the camp, helped each other out.

403
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: They practiced, they sang songs, they talked, they laughed, all

404
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: while taking what they were doing very very seriously. They

405
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: didn't really argue our fight with each other. Shadavea wrote,

406
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: you men have never dreamed of such openness. Another American

407
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 2: who we just mentioned, Arlene Blum, remembers being welcomed by

408
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 2: Shadava after some politics that had her feeling left out

409
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: of the American crew.

410
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 1: Basically, they were like, you're not experienced enough to be here.

411
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 2: You go over there, and Shadavea informed Blum that the

412
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: mail climbers didn't believe a woman's team could ever summit

413
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: Pete Lenin, but that was Shadavea's goal. Her plan was

414
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: to take a team of eight women to traverse the peak,

415
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: the first to do so, no meta, the gender and BioVac,

416
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 2: which is basically extreme temporary camping on the top peak overnight.

417
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 2: But of course, the weather was out of their control.

418
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: The worst storm in a quarter decade rage, causing dangerous

419
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 2: avalanche conditions, many of which would go on to kill

420
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: several climbers. The day before the storm hit, organizers warned

421
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 2: that serious weather conditions were impending and they advised everyone

422
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 2: to descend. The group of Russian women led by Shadavaya

423
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: were witnessed around four hundred feet from the summit, about

424
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty two meters, and they sent a

425
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 2: message that they had in fact submitted, so they did

426
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 2: the thing. The following day, they radioed again and forming organizers,

427
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: one of whom was Shadabaya's husband, of the issues that

428
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: they were having winds of seventy to eighty miles per hour,

429
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: temperatures as low as negative forty degrees fahrenheit, and a

430
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 2: foot of snow made visibility virtually impossible. Chadava reported that

431
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 2: one of the women was sick and the other unwell.

432
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: She was advised to descend and if necessary, leave the

433
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: sick women behind. As they started to descend, one of

434
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: the women would tragically die, allegedly freezing to death as

435
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: she held the rope for others to climb down. The

436
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: survivors made it a few hundred feet before setting up tents.

437
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: That night, or perhaps the next, the two sick women died.

438
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: The winds blew away much of their equipment, and the

439
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: five surviving women to shelter in a tent without poles

440
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 2: and only three sleeping bags. The next morning, some climbers

441
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: who overheard the trouble the Russians were in tried to help,

442
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: but weren't able to get far because of the weather.

443
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: Hadavea informed organizers that three more of the women were

444
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: sick and they could not leave them after everything they'd

445
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 2: been through together and what they've done for each other.

446
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: A few hours later, she messaged, it is very sad

447
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: here where it was once so beautiful, And within a

448
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 2: few more hours some of the women had died, and

449
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: Shadavea radioed they are all gone.

450
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: Now.

451
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: That last asked when will we see the flowers again?

452
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 2: Two others earlier asked about their children. Now it is

453
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: no use. A few hours later, we are sorry, we

454
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: have failed you. We tried so hard. Now we are

455
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: so cold. And a few hours later another of the

456
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: women had died, and then another, Shadaveya, told organizers she

457
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: was too weak to hold down the transmit button anymore.

458
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: And the final message came later from the remaining climber,

459
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: Galina Parahojuk. Now we are two and now we will

460
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 2: all die. We are very sorry, we tried but we

461
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: could not. Please forgive us. We love you, goodbye. When

462
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: the weather cleared, the American team started to ascend towards

463
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: the peak. None the wiser, Higgins, successfully summited, as did

464
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: another American woman, the respected mountaineer Marty Hoey, who would

465
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 2: later die on Everest in an attempt to become the

466
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 2: first woman to summit in nineteen eighty two. They, among

467
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: other climbers that summited, found the bodies of the Russian women.

468
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: In total, thirteen died, including the eight women on that team.

469
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,239
Speaker 2: There were many reasons for this tragedy. One Higgins has

470
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: suggested is they were the test group. They felt they

471
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: needed to do it to uphold the standard of the

472
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: women's team, and Plum said the women were so very

473
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 2: loyal to each other they stayed together until the end.

474
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: So again the article was making the point like this

475
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 2: is a pretty serious tragedy and mountaineering history, and a

476
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: lot of the tragedies that people can name and in

477
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: successes people can name are about men, and this one

478
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: has sort of been buried and people don't know about it.

479
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: It was an all women's team and they were the

480
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: first to summit, but they didn't didn't survive it.

481
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 4: Oh goodness. M Blum didn't go with them then.

482
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 2: No, she was on Yeah, this was an all Russian team.

483
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: Blum was on the American. She wanted to go with them,

484
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: but because of the like politics of it, they wanted

485
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: it to be an all ussr team.

486
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really tragic. I feel like though, there's definitely.

487
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: Been movies on all male teams or at least most

488
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 3: of the male teams who have died, and you are horror.

489
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: Stories and then they are kind of elevated to like

490
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 4: hero status sometimes.

491
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, typically.

492
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 3: Watched them, so like at this point, you know this

493
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 3: is really sad they didn't make it, and then the

494
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: loyalty they had to each other.

495
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 4: It could have been a movie. I feel like this

496
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 4: has been a nineties movie.

497
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: I feel I mean, maybe it exists, listeners, maybe let

498
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 2: us know. I don't, right, because the whole point of

499
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: the article was like, how the hell we don't talk

500
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 2: about this?

501
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: Right?

502
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 3: Of course it has a lot to do with like

503
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 3: at that point the USSR being kind of the enemy

504
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: of the state. I mean today we're not standing with Russia,

505
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: so it's kind of that level, I'm sure, which we

506
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: don't know how much politics plays into it, and I

507
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 3: wonder how much. Yeah, the USSR history sticks with the

508
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 3: within Russia, like the former Soviet all of that area.

509
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 4: How much did they know Do they actually know a

510
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: lot of it?

511
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: And we just we don't know a lot of it,

512
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 3: which happens a lot when it comes to international stuff. Yeah,

513
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: but moving on to the less sad, less sad historical context,

514
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: we have a Junko Tabe who became the first member

515
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 3: to Summit Everest in nineteen seventy five as part of

516
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 3: an all women team, which is awesome. And we have

517
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: Alison Hargreaves who was recognized as the first person to

518
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 3: solo climb all six of the Great and Northern faces

519
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 3: of the Alps, and is credited with climbing ever its

520
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: solo without oxygen or the support of a sherpa. I

521
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: feel like without the oxygen thing.

522
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: That's a huge space.

523
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 4: It should happen.

524
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: I have like I could go.

525
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: If this is a different podcast, I'd be talking about that,

526
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: I'd be talking about the dangers you're descending.

527
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: I'd be talking about ice glaciers. Like I'm terri you.

528
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: I just I feel like I get I get the

529
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: like notoriety to it, but I'm like, is it necessary?

530
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 3: Is it?

531
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 4: Okay?

532
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 3: All right, all right, all right, I don't I'm not

533
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: a mountaineer. There's a whole lot of things I don't know.

534
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 4: Obviously.

535
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: I am a mere amateur hiker at best, probably just

536
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: a walker.

537
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 4: I don't know.

538
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: So she died on K two, one of the most

539
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: dangerous summers in the world, in nineteen ninety five.

540
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

541
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: K two and Anna Perna are the two that are

542
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,239
Speaker 2: like tied for the most team I think, or they

543
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: go back and forth.

544
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: This is the actual better news. Okay, this one's actually better.

545
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: In two thousand and six, Sophia Danenberg became the first

546
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: black woman to summit Everest. She said that at the

547
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: time of her climb quote, when I was at base camp,

548
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: if there were twenty female climbers, there must have been

549
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: two thousand men. And mountaineering generally there aren't many women.

550
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: But there are so few women on Everest. And it's

551
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: not just the climbers. Almost all the sherpas, guides, cooks,

552
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: and staff are men. It's like being in a small

553
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: town with almost no women, and if you're climbing, you're

554
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 2: there for months. This macho climbing culture can be intimidating

555
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: for women. Young women, including women of color, are bringing

556
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: their values into climbing and demanding that things are different.

557
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: It grows exponentially once it started. Mountaineering is kind of

558
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: lagging behind, but the industry is to respond. She's also

559
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: been very outspoken about her experience climbing as a black woman. Quote,

560
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: there are a lack of role models for people of

561
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: color in the climbing community. I also think that climbing

562
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: is an indicator of lagging social economic issues in her country.

563
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: People who climb big mountains are all the same, well educated,

564
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: work at an engineering company, from upper middle class families.

565
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: Climbing is time consuming and costly. No matter what anyone

566
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: says about the metaphysical part of climbing, it's a selfish,

567
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: non productive activity. It's a hobby that takes up a

568
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: lot of time. It's a selfish hobby. It's a hobby

569
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: that I love. Some people don't have the privilege of

570
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: not being productive. And then further, I've noticed that when

571
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: I've met people on my expeditions, they treat me with

572
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: a level of respect because I treat them with respect.

573
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: People in countries in South America, Africa and Asia are

574
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: so happy to see another brown person checking and climbing.

575
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: They don't make the normal assumptions of being a rich

576
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: white man. People have offered me additional information and have

577
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: showed me immense hospitality. And we're going to be talking

578
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: about her a bit more in a second. But she's

579
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: got a lot of great quotes and still got a

580
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: lot of greatquotes about always being questioned as being an expert,

581
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: Like they're always like, oh, it can't be you, but.

582
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: You don't look like a climber. Excuse me, what does

583
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: that look like?

584
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: Yeah?

585
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: And I've been following again with the social media is

586
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: but a lot of hikers who have been doing special episodes,

587
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: I guess, or doing specific things to show showcase whether

588
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: or not an area is safe for people of color,

589
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: specifically black people. And I think that's a sad and

590
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: necessary both of those things. And we've talked about that

591
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: and travel wise, but specifically for climbing and for hiking

592
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: and climbing in wilderness a type of things talking about

593
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: whether or not you are safe because we are more isolated.

594
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 4: We've talked about that as an issue.

595
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: For women in general and for non binary people, but

596
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: for you know, black the black community, it's a whole

597
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: different conversation once again, whether it's welcoming in general. And

598
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: I find that interesting because this is that conversation of like, yeah,

599
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: it's kind of for me as a person of color

600
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: when I see all white people. Don't get me wrong,

601
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: I still have the privilege of not of being considered

602
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 3: the model minority. Do I get some looks, sure, but

603
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: I don't get as much discrimination as a black person would.

604
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: I absolutely believe that, and I've seen it, but it's

605
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: still like the relief to see another person of color.

606
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: We're kind of like, Hi, oh you made it so

607
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 3: maybe this is a little you know, like trying to

608
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: give us each other heads up. And it's definitely that

609
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 3: conversation of who is welcome and who was seen as

610
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: an expert because well, you don't look like ABC and D.

611
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: So it's very interesting. I'm glad to hear they're making

612
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 3: changes and bringing some good, good noted difference in intersectional perspective.

613
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely great quotes.

614
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: She's also been very outspoken of, like we're gonna again,

615
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: We're going to get to this more in a second.

616
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: But like when she did this, it was pretty historic

617
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,239
Speaker 2: and really didn't make news and it should have, right,

618
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: so of course.

619
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: And then we have named Doma Sharpa, who at the

620
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: age of seventeen, became the youngest woman to summit Mount

621
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: Everest in two thousand and eight. She grew up in

622
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: a remote mountain village and Nepal, dreaming of climbing herself.

623
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: And she said, quote, the Sharpa are known as mountain heroes,

624
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: and I always wanted to live up to my name.

625
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 4: And apparently she did good job. My god, what was

626
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 4: I doing sitting on don't.

627
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: Want to think about.

628
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 4: Then we have Sarah Kumalo.

629
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: Kumala became the first Black African woman to summit Everest

630
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen.

631
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: Also a lot of great quotes, and then we did

632
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: want to wrap up with some more modern news. In

633
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: recent years, organizations run by women have come together to

634
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: lead all women summits of Everest. One such group operates

635
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: with a local Nepalese organization launched by Nepali entrepreneur Indira Bata.

636
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: It employs all Napali women as guides and provides funding

637
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: for other local women to train guides. And this is

638
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: a pretty big deal because over of the over twenty

639
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: two thousand guides in the country, less than nine hundred

640
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: are women. It's pretty it's a good earning. This is

641
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: not a strict endorsement of this company or again of

642
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 2: climbing efforts, because I know that and itself is controversial,

643
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: but just want to right mention it right again.

644
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 3: We always want to think about the environmental impact, so

645
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: that's all we're talking about. But if you're something that

646
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: intrigues you make.

647
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: Sure you get your research.

648
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 3: Yes on again, if you're thinking this has been a

649
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: lot of white folks, you are correct, though we don't

650
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: want to erase what women of color have done. Still

651
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 3: of the about four thousand people who have some of

652
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 3: the Everest, only eight of them have been black. Again,

653
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 3: there are some efforts to change that, and yeah, there

654
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: are already people.

655
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 4: Doing amazing things.

656
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: Of course, just a reminder, so many conversations about this,

657
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: but the opportunity, the affordability, accessibility, and probably just the

658
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 3: overall racism can be factors.

659
00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 4: Or why this is.

660
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: And then one of these efforts, by the way, is

661
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: a group of black climbers and mountaineers called a Full Circle.

662
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: In the words of a member, Rosemary Saul, it is

663
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 3: an expedition that is certainly about climbing, it is about

664
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: spending time in the mountains, but it's also about building community,

665
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: global community, and it's about changing the narrative of the

666
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 3: black community, particularly in the United States, and how we

667
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 3: interact with outdoor spaces. Yeah, and in twenty twenty two

668
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 3: they became the first all black team to summit Everest.

669
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: There's also Brown Girls Climbing, which is a US organization

670
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: dedicated to introducing climbings to girls of color.

671
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 4: And you know, we've talked about the hiking.

672
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: Experience, wilderness experience with other organizations and why this is

673
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 3: important that they are able to build that community.

674
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 4: It's beautiful to see.

675
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and a good source to check out complete with

676
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: people to follow on social media is melaninbasecamp dot com.

677
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: And then in twenty twenty one, Soriah Sarhati Nelson, who

678
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 2: is working on a book about women African climbers, reported

679
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: on an Afghan mountaineering women's team stranded in Afghanistan after

680
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: the US left. When the Taliban was in charge. Previously,

681
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: women and girls were not allowed to participate in sports,

682
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: but in the post Taliban era they have fought to

683
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: compete and they have had successes. When the Taliban regained control,

684
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: some started banning women from participating once again, and this

685
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: team's trapped.

686
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: It was an.

687
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: Upsetting and very informative article, but it was kind of

688
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: using this team to look at what's going on in

689
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: Afghanistan at large for women.

690
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, obviously, again, this is one of the big

691
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 3: conversations of who has accessibility to doing these things and

692
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: why the numbers for those marginalized people are so low,

693
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: and how it's not their fault.

694
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 4: Is literally society's fault.

695
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and definitely like.

696
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 2: Not to harp on this point, but harp on this point,

697
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: like As the climbing of mountains has become more commercialized,

698
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 2: more and more people are doing it, and I'm happy

699
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: to see like it's becoming more diversified. But as we've

700
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: said throughout, do your research, because we've all, I think

701
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: a lot of us have seen the pictures now of

702
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: like the line to suit Everest and the trash that's everywhere. Like, right,

703
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: if you're going to do it, you have to be respectful,

704
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: take care of the environment, think about what you're doing.

705
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and also yeah, all that to understand that

706
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: if native people of that land are asking you something,

707
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 3: not even asking you, but pleading with you, yes, to

708
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 3: not do something, Let's listen.

709
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 4: Let's listen.

710
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I mean there's so many there's so

711
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: much we could talk about with this, but we're we've

712
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: got to stay our feminist. It's hard because I want

713
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: to talk about it, but those podcasts do exist, and

714
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: there is so much information out there about this, and

715
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: I am glad that I got to to share some mountaineers.

716
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 4: Except for the tragic but you know, yes, it happens.

717
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 1: It does.

718
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: That's what the whole thing got started because I was

719
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 2: just curious.

720
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Well, if we have anybody in our.

721
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: Audience who's a mountaineer who has climbed some mountains, we

722
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you. Pictures too, Yes, oh

723
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: my gosh, yes, send us pictures. You can email us

724
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: at Steffidia mom Stuff at iheartmeia dot com. You can

725
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on

726
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: Instagram at stuff I Never Told You Things is always

727
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: to our super producer Christina.

728
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 4: Thank you Christina, and thank see you for listening.

729
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: Stuff on Ever Told Your Prediction?

730
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 2: By Heart Radio For more podcast from my heart Radio,

731
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: is it the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or

732
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: regular listen to your favorite shows