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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a beautiful young bride to

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Speaker 1: be stabbed twenty times, including in the back, the back

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Speaker 1: of the head, the back of the neck. Ruled suicide. Tonight,

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Speaker 1: her parents force this case to be reopened. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: A shunking admission by the pathologist, and the stabbing death

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Speaker 2: of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.

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Speaker 1: It all starts here. Listen my part, she answers on the.

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Speaker 3: Floor with flood everywhere. But oh no, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I can tell you.

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Speaker 3: Does you have to calm yourself down in order to

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Speaker 3: get you somehow?

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking

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Speaker 4: at her right now. I can't see anything.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing broken.

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Speaker 4: She's leaped, Ellie.

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Speaker 3: You don't know where she's bleeding from from.

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Speaker 4: I think her head everywhere everywhere.

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Speaker 3: She might have fallen, you know what happened. She may

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Speaker 3: have slipped his blood on the on the table.

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Speaker 4: Her piece is a little purple.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold off.

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Speaker 3: For rest for her on the phone.

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Speaker 1: May have fallen, may have fallen on a knife twenty times,

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Speaker 1: may have slipped straight out to very special guests joining

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Speaker 1: us tonight. Ellen's parents that I now call friends, Josh

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Speaker 1: and Sandy Greenberg. Do you know how much I hate

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Speaker 1: play the nine one one call, especially when you're with me.

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Speaker 1: Every time I play it, Sandy, I literally get chilled.

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Speaker 1: She did not fall on a knife twenty times.

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Speaker 5: The phone call is chilling every time I hear It's

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Speaker 5: the way I heard it in the very beginning.

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Speaker 6: Let's look at what he sees when he walks in.

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Speaker 6: You're gonna tell me he didn't see a five or

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Speaker 6: six inch handle of a knife stuck in my daughter's

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Speaker 6: chest with her left hand on it, wrapped around a

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Speaker 6: white towel that completely was unobservable from walking in.

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Speaker 1: Come on, the whole thing is so fuldy. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that white towel. Josh and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to go to Inside Baseball because the three of us, well,

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Speaker 1: everybody on the panel knows these facts so well. But

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Speaker 1: for those of you just joining us tonight, Ellen, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I know Ellen so well now, but I

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Speaker 1: only met her in death. Ellen, sharing a luxury apartment

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Speaker 1: with her fiance Sam Goldberg, is found brutally stabbed and

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Speaker 1: some of us think strangled as well in the short

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Speaker 1: space of time when her fiance left the apartment to

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Speaker 1: go in the building's gym to work out. When Josh

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Speaker 1: that these are Ellen's parents, okay, and you may think

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Speaker 1: sometimes they seem really calm, you know what they are.

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Speaker 1: They're exhausted. They've been fighting this fight for years. They've

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Speaker 1: spent all their energy, all their time, all their savings,

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Speaker 1: everything trying to prove Ellen did not commit suicide, and

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Speaker 1: in the last days joining me to explain. John Lucy,

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Speaker 1: Journalistpenlive dot com and Patrioteese of Harrisburg specializing in true crime,

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Speaker 1: author of Kill the Story. John, I can't believe we're

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Speaker 1: right here, right now, We've actually had good news after

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Speaker 1: all these years of this ridiculous Actually it's not ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: It's a cover up, a cover up about Ellen's murder.

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Speaker 1: Tell everyone what has just happened.

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Speaker 7: Well, that allegation of a cover up was about to

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Speaker 7: go to a jury trial in Philadelphia, but in a

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Speaker 7: stunning reversal, the pathologist Marlon Osborne, who conducted Ellen's autopsy

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Speaker 7: in twenty eleven and have initially ruled it a homicide,

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Speaker 7: by twenty knife wounds and then about two months later,

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Speaker 7: changed it to suicide under pressure from detectives who, according

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Speaker 7: to the Greenberg lawyers, botched the case from the very beginning,

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Speaker 7: losing basically all the evidence that was at the scene.

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Speaker 7: Pressured him to change it to suicide, and he did

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Speaker 7: on April fourth, twenty eleven. That's where we've been for

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Speaker 7: fourteen years until earlier this week, when Osborne, in a

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Speaker 7: stunning reversal, said he was wrong, he would classify the

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Speaker 7: case as something other than suicide. And he listened to.

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Speaker 1: John, John, everything you're saying is correct, but you got

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Speaker 1: me drink from the fire hydrant. It's just too much

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Speaker 1: to take in right now. So hold on, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to dissect everything you said, and everybody on the panel

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Speaker 1: please jump in. Let me go straight out to Tom Brennan,

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Speaker 1: longtime family friend who took on this case. Hey Tom,

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Speaker 1: a congratulations. I almost hate to say it because I

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Speaker 1: don't want to jinx the case going forward, but it's

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Speaker 1: stunning to me how now, after fourteen years of the

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Speaker 1: parents fighting, they just sold their house. They put all

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Speaker 1: their money, all their time, all their energy into clearing

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Speaker 1: Ellen's name. Thats all they've got left. This is their

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Speaker 1: only child, right, and they know she did not commit suicide.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that's taken Osborne fourteen years to say,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, I screwed up. But listen to this Tom.

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Speaker 8: In a public statement, doctor Marlon Osborne said, after reviewing

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Speaker 8: additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from

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Speaker 8: the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as a consult with

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Speaker 8: doctor Lucy Rourke Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to

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Speaker 8: make the change in his verification. Osborne writes that he

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Speaker 8: is now unsure of the series of events that happened

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Speaker 8: that day. He also says he doesn't know whether the

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Speaker 8: door was forced open as reported, whether Ellen's body was

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Speaker 8: moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at

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Speaker 8: or near the time of her death, and the findings

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Speaker 8: of Lindsey Emery, MD from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's

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Speaker 8: cervical segment sample.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot to take in. Let's go back

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Speaker 1: to the nine to one one call. Listen forty six

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Speaker 1: one splat Rock Road.

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Speaker 4: Please Herry, Yes, Oh, I just I went downstairs go

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Speaker 4: work out. I came back up the door, the lash

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Speaker 4: my inside. She wasn't she wasn't answering. So after about

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Speaker 4: a half hour, I decided to break it down. I

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Speaker 4: see her now, it's on the floor before she's not

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Speaker 4: she's not responding.

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Speaker 2: Okay, breath, I can.

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Speaker 9: I calm down? How I was going away?

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Speaker 4: I don't see her moving.

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Speaker 1: No, she was not on her back joining me. Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Fate, death

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Speaker 1: investigator with over a thousand death investigations under his belt,

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Speaker 1: star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you and I mostly you did a complete

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Speaker 1: re enact of what happened to Ellen. Okay, she was

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Speaker 1: propped up. Yes, her rear end was on the floor

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen, but she was propped up in a

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Speaker 1: way against the kitchen cabinet, right.

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Speaker 10: So yeah, Nancy, you know, back when we did the

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Speaker 10: recreation of Ellen's apartment, one of the things that we

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Speaker 10: made note of at that particular time, and this is

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Speaker 10: it's quite glaring as well, is that she had essentially

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Speaker 10: a streak of blood that was Remember we have to

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Speaker 10: frame this and say that she was in a seated

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Speaker 10: upright position. She had a streak of blood that was

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Speaker 10: literally running parallel to her shoulders. Viscous fluid or any

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Speaker 10: kind of fluid doesn't work that way per the laws

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Speaker 10: of gravity. It flows downward. So at some point tom

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Speaker 10: she was seated or moved upwards, probably from a position

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Speaker 10: where she was laying down, and the blood had streaked

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Speaker 10: from her mouth at that point in time and was

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Speaker 10: running parallel to her shoulders. And of course something doesn't

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Speaker 10: fit with that. And I think that any investigator that's

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Speaker 10: working at the scene, particularly observing a body worth their salt,

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Speaker 10: would make note of that. Obviously at the beginning, that

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Speaker 10: would be a huge red flag. You would have to say, well,

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Speaker 10: how in the world could the blood flow be in

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Speaker 10: that position relative to the position we're observing her in now.

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Speaker 1: And of course, hey, Joe Scott, yes, Joe Scott, I

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Speaker 1: love the way that John Lucy put it. He refers

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Speaker 1: to it as the wrong way blood. Listen, we call

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Speaker 1: that the wrong way blood.

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Speaker 7: And it's one of the many anomalies at the crime

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Speaker 7: scene that was treated as a suicide scene the night

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Speaker 7: of her death and thus never preserved and never processed.

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Speaker 7: That is the original sin of this whole case.

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Speaker 1: When we're talking about wrong way blood? Okay? Now, why

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Speaker 1: is jo Scott talking about wrong way blood? When I

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Speaker 1: asked him, wasn't Ellen sitting up propped back against sitting

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Speaker 1: on the floor, propped back against sketching cabinets? Okay? He

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Speaker 1: immediately in his mind he's three steps ahead of everybody else,

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Speaker 1: went to the wrong way blood. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: That means that the blood on Ellen, she's sitting up,

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Speaker 1: is going like this? Okay? I believe in gravity. I

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Speaker 1: know about saraizing Newton. So why is the blood not

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Speaker 1: only going the wrong way across her face for instance,

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Speaker 1: knows to ear if it doesn't match the way her

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Speaker 1: body is found? And not only that the blood was dried? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So how long? John Lucy Hey, let me go to

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Speaker 1: bene nowur joining us. Beney and I have researched this

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Speaker 1: case with the help of so many people, including Sandy

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Speaker 1: and Josh, and we went through every single report, every

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Speaker 1: single document. Beney now a co author with me of

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Speaker 1: what happened to Ellen and an American miscarriage of Justice PS.

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Speaker 1: All of the proceeds are going to National Center Missing

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Speaker 1: Children be Nay, how long approximately do we think Goldberg,

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Speaker 1: the fiance was gone from the apartment in the workout room.

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Speaker 11: We don't think it was even an hour. We don't

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Speaker 11: believe it possibly could have been two hours. We don't

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Speaker 11: believe it was even an hour.

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Speaker 1: Joining us in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg been

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Speaker 1: an hour, Joscott Morgan, John Lucy to Tom Brennan, what

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Speaker 1: do you think, Tom? How long was Goldberg out of

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Speaker 1: the apartment to go to the workout room? And Tom,

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Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know this. Why do you say that? Why do

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Speaker 1: you think it was forty five minutes?

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Speaker 12: Because we could observe him on the security cameras in

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Speaker 12: the ability where he walked down the hall to go

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Speaker 12: to the gym, and when he came out out of

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Speaker 12: the gym. It's on the video taps.

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Speaker 2: The stabbing death of twenty having year old Philly teacher

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Speaker 2: to be reinvestigated as the medical examiner says he was wrong.

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Speaker 2: The family fights for years to get her suicide ruling changed.

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Speaker 1: It all started here.

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Speaker 3: Listen, Okay, you know how I got Okay, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: tell you what to do.

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Speaker 11: Okay until they get here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Well with me. Over the fall, I have

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Speaker 4: you right?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so you know, fight on her bank, bear her set.

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Speaker 1: Gang over for sure.

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Speaker 9: Okay, you'll be out by her side.

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Speaker 4: Merchant. Listen, you can't freak out. Okay, I'm sorry. After

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Speaker 4: trying to her shirt will come off as a different Okay.

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Speaker 4: She stands herself where she's so nice? Oh no, her

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Speaker 4: narves sticking out? What because its sticking out of her?

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Speaker 12: He stands herself.

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Speaker 4: I guess you're going it. I don't know. Okay, well,

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Speaker 4: don't touch it.

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Speaker 1: Will a jury ever here these nine one one calls. Well,

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Speaker 1: as of now, they're one inch closer to hearing them

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Speaker 1: in the last days. A stunning turn of events after

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year battle. Imagine going through the devastation of

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Speaker 1: learning your daughter is dead in the midst of planning

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Speaker 1: a wedding a guy she truly believed she loved he

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Speaker 1: was mister big Right. Then to find out it was suicide.

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Speaker 1: Then in the middle of her memorial at the synagogue,

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Speaker 1: to find out no, it's not suicide, it's homicide. Only

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Speaker 1: to have the medical examiner go at a closed door

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Speaker 1: meeting with police and district attorneys who I might add

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Speaker 1: one of them as ex She's got an immunity in

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Speaker 1: this so she can't be prosecuted. That stinks to how

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Speaker 1: I haven't and have it now ruled back to suicide.

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Speaker 1: To Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who have been through so much,

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Speaker 1: I mean, hell on Earth, you can find them at

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Speaker 1: Justice for Ellen, Sandy. Why is it the settlement happens

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Speaker 1: as you're about to strike a jury after fourteen years

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Speaker 1: and bring all these people, including the medical examiner, the police,

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Speaker 1: others in to tell what happened in that closed door meeting,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly, oh no, no, no, no no, they

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Speaker 1: don't want that, and there's a settlement at the midnight hour,

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Speaker 1: the twelfth hour, the last minute, as the jury is

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Speaker 1: literally about to be picked. What happens, Sandy the city.

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Speaker 5: Back together. I guess that they were not prepared to

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Speaker 5: really to go to trial. They were hoping that they

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Speaker 5: would all have high immunity and everyone would get off.

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Speaker 5: We didn't back down, and they made a proposal, which

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Speaker 5: Joe will explain to Josh and I. It took a little.

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Speaker 1: Explanation, explanation.

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Speaker 5: It still hasn't completely sunk in, but at least we've

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Speaker 5: turned the corner.

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Speaker 6: I don't see why the city has to do another

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Speaker 6: examination on a body that's been in the ground for

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Speaker 6: almost fifteen years.

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Speaker 7: But we had to agree to that.

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Speaker 6: We had agreed that there are really four options that

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Speaker 6: the medical examiner come up with, two of which are

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Speaker 6: homicide and two of which your homicide and unexplained, and

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Speaker 6: the third one accidental and suicide. We know it's not accidental,

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Speaker 6: we know it's not suicide, less homicide and undetermined. That's

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Speaker 6: what the city is going to come up with. Probably,

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Speaker 6: I can't say for sure anything. I will say that

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Speaker 6: I still don't trust the city at all.

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Speaker 1: Well for good reason, Josh, for good reason, you know,

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Speaker 1: trust the city. So you're telling me, Josh, that Ellen

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Speaker 1: is going to be exhumed, if I have anything to

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Speaker 1: say about it, it said.

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Speaker 5: The city spokesperson said that the medical examiner will go

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Speaker 5: through her autopsy file. Big deal cut that out last night.

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Speaker 1: I saw that. You know, I'm very curious because Sandy

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Speaker 1: and Josh, if Benay and I could, with the help

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Speaker 1: of Joe Scott Morgan and doctor Dupree and others, if

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Speaker 1: we could go through the file and find all of

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Speaker 1: these problems and inconsistencies and bruises and bruises to her

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Speaker 1: strat muscles indicating she was strangled, defensive bruises on her body,

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Speaker 1: so much evidence that she was killed. If we can

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Speaker 1: find that, I'd be very surprised if someone else can't

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Speaker 1: find it. Guys, joining me right now is a very

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Speaker 1: special guest, and I'll tell you why. Guy DeAndrea is

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Speaker 1: with us. He's a now a trial lawyer with Laffy Bouci, DeAndrea,

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Speaker 1: Reich and Ryan. But for my purpose it's so important.

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Speaker 1: He was in the DA's office at the time they

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Speaker 1: were looking at Ellen's case, and somehow, after the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner said oh, yeah, Ellen was murdered, there was a

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Speaker 1: closed door meeting with a member of the DA's office

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Speaker 1: and police. That assistant DA has been given immunity in this.

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Speaker 1: That stinks, guys. Why would a prosecutor who is charged

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Speaker 1: with upholding the law and always doing the right thing

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Speaker 1: have to have immunity for what she said or did

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Speaker 1: in this closed door meeting. Guy to Andrea, you took

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Speaker 1: a big red flag at the time, and I was

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Speaker 1: waving it back and forth. I think this is a homicide.

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Speaker 1: What happened? Guy, and Who was the elected DA at

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Speaker 1: that time?

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Speaker 13: Yes, Nancy, the elected DA at the time with Seth Williams,

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Speaker 13: I did raise the red flag after doing a thorough

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Speaker 13: and full investigation that this from my perspective, not based

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Speaker 13: on opinion, but based on evidence that you went over

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Speaker 13: copiously today, that she was killed by homicide, period, end

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Speaker 13: of story. And I proposed that, and the conclusion that

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Speaker 13: was reached is that it would be changed to homicide

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Speaker 13: after the neuropathologist, the independent one that was hired, came

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Speaker 13: up with their conclusions. So long as the conclusions were

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Speaker 13: that her spinal column was pierced, and in fact it was,

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Speaker 13: I had left the office, so I thought, as of

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Speaker 13: twenty seventeen, Nancy, this would be changed. And here we

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Speaker 13: are in twenty twenty five. As you said on the

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Speaker 13: twelfth hour, they finally caved.

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Speaker 2: I guess a little bit.

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Speaker 1: We'll call it, but there's now going to be an

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Speaker 1: investigation at least, Guy.

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Speaker 13: Well, an investigation fourteen years later that showed took place

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Speaker 13: played frankly in twenty eleven, if not in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 13: certainly in twenty fifteen, sixteen and seventeen when I was

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Speaker 13: looking at it saying this isn't right, look at the evidence.

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Speaker 13: How are we making this conclusion.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy grace A joining me is renowned

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Speaker 1: psychologist joining us out of Manhattan TV radio trauma expert.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen

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Speaker 1: with a Sea if you're looking for her. Karen Starr,

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Speaker 1: you and I have discussed the old old story of

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Speaker 1: David and Goliath. Right here you have. It's almost making

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Speaker 1: me tear up. Karen. You've got Josh and Sandy. You've

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Speaker 1: got Padrasa and Brennan who've been working for free now forever,

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Speaker 1: trying to attack this case.

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Speaker 12: And this.

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Speaker 1: Couple, Sandy and Josh are taking on not only the

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Speaker 1: city of Philadelphia, not only the District Attorney's office, but

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Speaker 1: the then ag now Governor Josh Shapiro, who had a

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Speaker 1: chance to open this and did not. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: got to be so overwhelming, Karen start and to have

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Speaker 1: to live with.

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Speaker 14: Them for so many years, Dancy knowing that this is

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Speaker 14: your one and only child, and that there is no

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Speaker 14: way that she could commit suicide, that she would do that,

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Speaker 14: it doesn't even make any sense. Really, don't stab themselves.

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Speaker 14: Most of the time that I take kills or some

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Speaker 14: thing that was not physicult and how could she do

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Speaker 14: that to herself? And they had to live with this.

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Speaker 14: The best thing that ever could have happened is that

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Speaker 14: they didn't give up, that they had purposed, They focused,

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Speaker 14: and they were able to do something eventually, because that

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Speaker 14: kind of grief, it just doesn't go away. It's the

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Speaker 14: worst thing you could possibly think of. Right your child

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Speaker 14: is dead.

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Speaker 2: A shocking admission by the pathologist and the stabbing death

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Speaker 2: of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg the case to be reopened.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I'm.

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Speaker 14: Going to tell you what to do.

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Speaker 4: Okay, you'll her five.

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Speaker 1: You can't freak out.

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to Her shirt won't come off into a zipper.

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Speaker 4: She stabs herself.

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Speaker 1: Wait she fell knife?

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Speaker 4: Oh no, her nice checking out, a nice sticking out

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Speaker 4: of her. Hunter does he stands her south? I guess so.

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Speaker 4: I don't know where she's telling it. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, don't check it. And that is where the

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Speaker 1: specter of suicide first rears its ugly head, right there

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Speaker 1: in the fiance's nine to one one call. She stabbed herself,

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Speaker 1: she fell on a knife. Joining me. In addition to

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Speaker 1: Ellen's parents, a guy who has been on this case

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Speaker 1: from the very beginning, and I stuck with it. John

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Speaker 1: Lucy is with me Panlive dot Com, Patriot News, Harrisburg,

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Speaker 1: also specialty true crime author Kill the story John Early.

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Speaker 1: When we first started talking tonight, Josh Ellen's dad brought

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Speaker 1: up a pristine white dish trag that Ellen was holding

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Speaker 1: in one hand, no blood on it at all. Now,

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Speaker 1: let me understand this, John. So there's a blizzard that day.

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Speaker 1: She leaves her little elementary school students early. Then she

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Speaker 1: calls all the parents to make sure they get home.

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Speaker 1: She stops geffer gas, gets her car ready in case

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Speaker 1: she needs to go somewhere in the snow, comes home

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Speaker 1: and starts making I guess lunch or dinner, a big

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Speaker 1: fruit salad, and in the middle of the fruit salad,

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Speaker 1: she goes, oh, to hell with this, I'm gonna kill myself.

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Speaker 1: That's the theory, right, And yeah, that's the theory.

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Speaker 7: And that was the operating assumption of the people who

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Speaker 7: responded on that snowy night. The detectives and there was

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Speaker 7: a representative from the emy's office. They bought into that

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Speaker 7: narrative of suicide. And because of that, there was no

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Speaker 7: forensics the crime scene. The scene was not preserved as

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Speaker 7: a crime scene because suicide is not a crime. It

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Speaker 7: is a crime, but it's against yourself. So that's why

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Speaker 7: this case never went anywhere. Even after Osborne rolled it

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Speaker 7: a homicide. The detectives went back a couple of days

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Speaker 7: later with a search warrant and a forensics team, but

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Speaker 7: the place had been sanitized, the entire apartment.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing left. There was nothing to investigate.

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Speaker 7: And you know, the one thing about this case where

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Speaker 7: we're at now, Yes, theme is going to look at

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Speaker 7: the manner of death one more time, but also, I mean,

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Speaker 7: there's a homicide that has yet to be solved here

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Speaker 7: that is now, who's going to do it? The FBI,

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Speaker 7: the AG's office, the county district attorney where it resides,

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Speaker 7: and is currently an evry No no no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no Padraza help me out here. We cannot

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Speaker 1: have the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office take this because they've

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Speaker 1: got too many connections to the then AG Shapiro. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that can't be typically everybody when we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: AG that's like the top cop within the state. There's

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Speaker 1: also an AG AG for the US government, right for

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Speaker 1: the United States, Every state has an attorney general. So

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Speaker 1: if you think your local DA is screwing up, is falsifying,

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Speaker 1: is not doing their job, you take it up to

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Speaker 1: the top cop, the attorney general. Right the Attorney General

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Speaker 1: at the time of this incident was Shapiro. He's now

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Speaker 1: the government. It's got to be the Fed's Pa Draza.

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Speaker 1: There are too many connections with the AG's office, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not impugning integrity on any of them. It's just

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Speaker 1: like I say, Hey, Jackie, I want you to investigate me.

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Speaker 1: We're friends, we work together every day. That has the

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Speaker 1: stink of impropriety. Can't do that, well, that's agreed, Nancy.

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Speaker 15: And ideally what we like to do is to have

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Speaker 15: a special prosecutor, especially assigned to the case given its history,

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Speaker 15: one who is acceptable not only to the family, but

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Speaker 15: also has a reputable reputation as a prosecutor within the

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Speaker 15: resources of the powers of grand jury, etc.

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Speaker 13: At their disposal to go forward.

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Speaker 16: Now, whether that is a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor,

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Speaker 16: we don't really fancy either one as long as they're objective, confident,

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Speaker 16: and committee.

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Speaker 1: But as Brennan, Pedraza and I are discussing, if this

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Speaker 1: case is ruled homicide, which it should be. That opens

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Speaker 1: this up to a criminal investigation if the district attorney

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Speaker 1: has the backbone to do it, and if not, maybe

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Speaker 1: an independent secuter will. Now that leads me to the

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Speaker 1: specter of a cover up. Listen.

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Speaker 17: The second suit, which was filed in twenty twenty two

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Speaker 17: and slated for trial this week at City Hall, alleged

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Speaker 17: the investigation into Greenberg's death was embarrassingly botched and resulted

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Speaker 17: in a cover up by Philadelphia authorities. It sought monetary

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Speaker 17: damages for intentional infliction of emotional distress against several city

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Speaker 17: employees who were involved in the investigation.

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Speaker 4: Here with her, Yeah, we're the only one here. No, no,

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Speaker 4: I went downstairs to work out, and when I came

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Speaker 4: back off the door with a lash, you know it

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Speaker 4: wasn't you know. We walked from the inside and I'm

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Speaker 4: yelling no, no, no, no, no, no break in no

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Speaker 4: no found of breaking. It will be when you get

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Speaker 4: you're glad to break the flash up. Okay, right, Oh

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Speaker 4: my god, oh my god, all right.

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Speaker 1: To beney now, are joining me co author with me

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Speaker 1: of what happened to Ellen? All pre proceeds going to

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Speaker 1: national Center Missing Exploited Children Beney. Also, mister Goldberg stated

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Speaker 1: that he asked the front desk security to come with

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Speaker 1: him when he knocked down the door, and that he

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Speaker 1: had a witness the front desk security person. Correct, yes, No,

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Speaker 1: that's correct. Okay. Isn't it true that we located the

434
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: front desk security person and that security person signed an

435
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: f David? And what did the security person say? In

436
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: the affidavit?

437
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 11: He said he was asked to accompany Sam and told

438
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 11: him absolutely he could not, that he could not leave

439
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 11: his desk, and that he absolutely did not accompany him.

440
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: He was not at that door.

441
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 11: He stated that over and over and over again in

442
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 11: that affidavit.

443
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: Another interesting theory emerging. Listen.

444
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 8: Doctor Greenberg is walking through the courthouse and tells some

445
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 8: reporters Ellen, considering she was found with twenty knife wounds

446
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 8: in her head, neck, back in chest, Doctor Greenberg says

447
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 8: he thinks his daughter was strangled. Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne

448
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 8: k Ross is commissioned by the Greenbergs to review the case.

449
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 8: Doctor Ross says there's evidence of strangulation. Ross says there's

450
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 8: a mark over the front of the neck and in

451
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 8: the strap muscles over the right side of the neck,

452
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 8: claiming these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation. Ross

453
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 8: also points out the number of bruises over different parts

454
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 8: of Greenberg's body are consistent with the repeated beatings. He writes,

455
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 8: it is my opinion that the investigating authority should pursue

456
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 8: this case as a homicide. It is further my opinion,

457
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 8: to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner

458
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 8: of death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative

459
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 8: of a homicide.

460
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to Joseph Scott Morgan joined me,

461
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: death investigator at Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University. Of course,

462
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm just a lay person, right. But she bled If

463
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: she were already dead from strangulation, I don't think that

464
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: would have been copious amounts of blood. Number one, Number two,

465
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: There is evidence of strangulation, particularly specifically, the bruising is

466
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: sub under the skin. Bruising under strap muscles is clearly strangling.

467
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: She doesn't have to be strangled dead to undergo strangulation

468
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: and then a stabbing. Why can't both be true?

469
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 10: I'm going to say something very plainly here, Nancy and

470
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 10: I don't care who hears it or what they think

471
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 10: about it. This has all of the earmarks of what

472
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 10: we refer to as overkill. Anytime you have an intimate

473
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 10: event like this, and when I say intimate, I'm talking

474
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 10: about from a homicide perspective where you have twenty two

475
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 10: zero stab wounds to an individual. These are things that

476
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 10: we see, Nancy, when there is a tremendous amount of passion.

477
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: Over all of my.

478
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 10: Career working at two major corner and medical examiner's offices,

479
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 10: I have never seen, never seen a case where I've

480
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 10: had twenty self inflicted stab wounds to an individual. And

481
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 10: then we come to these anomalies on the neck that

482
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 10: Josh has pointed out, you had external and right there

483
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 10: you can see it very plainly. You have an external

484
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 10: manifestation of these anomalies. Nancy. This is not mentioned anywhere

485
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 10: in the autopsy report. And one more thing, when you

486
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 10: have this idea of an intimate overkill event, particularly with

487
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 10: a female, one of the things that you're going to

488
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 10: do is in the neck. In the neck, and there's

489
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 10: only cursory mention of an absence of hemorrhage, which is

490
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 10: striking to me. In the autopsy report, the neck is

491
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 10: very complex. Relative to this network of muscles you had

492
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 10: mentioned the strap muscles. You literally at autopsy, and I

493
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 10: participated in this hundreds of times. You literally dissect each

494
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 10: muscle group and you flip it back and you look

495
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 10: at it both on the anterior that means the front

496
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 10: section and posterior the back section, and that gives you

497
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 10: an indication as to how much pressure was applied to

498
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 10: the neck. Now, she's already in a compromised position where

499
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 10: she's been so freaking traumatized relative to these knife wounds,

500
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 10: it would not take too much to push this precious

501
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 10: angel over the edge relative to her ability to uptake oxygen?

502
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 10: Do you hear what I'm saying? So all of these things,

503
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 10: can you do have concurrence here? I'm just amazed, Nancy,

504
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 10: that there is no mission of this in the autopsy report.

505
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 10: As a matter of fact, if you look at the

506
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 10: internal where it's listed as internal section, it's just a

507
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 10: passing thing to state that there is nothing there. And

508
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 10: one more thing and I'll shut my mouth. Over the

509
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 10: course of my career, I have never seen a case

510
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 10: where an emme changed the manner of death. Three times

511
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 10: I've seen it happen most of the time. What happens

512
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 10: is you go with undetermined, then you go to suicide,

513
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 10: you go to undetermined, then you go to homsid undetermined,

514
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 10: then you go to accident. It ain't what happened here.

515
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 2: This is mind blow up Discott.

516
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: In all the years I have investigated, prosecuted, and covered homicides,

517
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: never once, never, once have I seen a COEOD cause

518
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: of death be changed like this. Usually I see a

519
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: determined to homicide. If there's any change at all, usually

520
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: they know at the get go what's happening now? I

521
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: was following along everything you just said. But can I

522
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: boil it down for you and get a simple yes? No,

523
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: Ellen was stabbed twenty times in the back, the back

524
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: of the neck, the back of the head, covered in bruises. Yes,

525
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: that's not suicide.

526
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 10: Yes, no, no, it's not suicide. I'll plainly say that.

527
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 8: The Ellen Greenberg evidence includes searches allegedly made by Greenberg

528
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 8: using Google to research suicide methods. The searches were not

529
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 8: added to the Greenberg evidence file until years after her death,

530
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 8: and Guy DeAndrea says he knows what was in the

531
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 8: file and Google searches of suicide by Ellen Greenberg was

532
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 8: not in the evidence file with me?

533
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: Is Guy DeAndrea, who was in the District Attorney's office

534
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: at the time and reviewed with a fine tooth comb

535
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: all the evidence, Guy, rapid fire. Isn't it true that

536
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: Ellen's devices, her laptop and more were taken from the

537
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: crime scene by members of the Goldberg family? Is that true?

538
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 4: True?

539
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: All of those devices were returned? Were they not? After

540
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: being requested? They were? Isn't it true that that is

541
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: not SOP standard operating procedure for it is to be

542
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: taken from a scene. But wait, in this case, it

543
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: was a suicide, so apparently there was nothing wrong with it. Yes, no, no,

544
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: it is not standing operating procedure. But this was a suicide,

545
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: so possibly police didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

546
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: To Sandy and Josh Green, these devices belonged to your daughter.

547
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: Were you asked if Goldberg family members could take them? No?

548
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: What did you have to do to get them back?

549
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: In a nutshell, big borrow and steel? Okay, but you

550
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: did get them back. Now Here is my question to

551
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: Guide DeAndrea. You state you carefully examined the entire file

552
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: and there was no evidence on her devices, any device

553
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 1: that she was looking up manners of suicide. Is that true?

554
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 13: That's true, Nancy. There was no reports of searching for suicide.

555
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 13: But more importantly, the computers were examined by the Federal

556
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 13: Laboratory our CFL, and their report details that nothing of

557
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 13: significance as it relates to suicide was found, meaning plain language,

558
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 13: no searches for suicide.

559
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: So you search the FBI search. There was nothing in

560
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: the police files or the investigation files about her searching

561
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: for suicide. But y years later these searches emerge. That's

562
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: right to Joseph pedraza attorney for the Greenberg family, partner

563
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: LAMB mccarlan, Joe, I'm stunned only when a jury was

564
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: literally being struck. Okay, you know, I've seen it a

565
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: million times. When they look at the jury, they're like, Okay,

566
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: I'll plead or I'll do a settlement. Because the chickens

567
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: have come home to roost. It's happening. Osbourne would have

568
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: to take the stand and everyone would have to explain

569
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: why they covered up his failure. Why what happened in

570
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: that meeting. That's what I want to know. What happened

571
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: in that meeting with cops, the ADA, and Osborne, the

572
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: medical examiner, they would have to under oath say what happened,

573
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: and instead of doing that, they settled. My question is

574
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: what now can and we get this too a criminal

575
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: investigation by an independent investigator.

576
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 16: We will and we will take every measure of that

577
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 16: is possible to get it there. And failing to get

578
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 16: appropriate response by a prosecutorial authority or a law enforcement authority,

579
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 16: we're going to pursue c evinly. We're not letting this end.

580
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 13: We've gotten the ball to the goal line.

581
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 16: Now the time is to hold somebody responsible for this murder,

582
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 16: a massacre of this child.

583
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: To Josh and Sandy Greenberg joining us who have been

584
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: through so much, all out of love for Ellen, what next, Sandy?

585
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: What next? We're going to go ahead.

586
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 6: I'm not Sandy. There's something I would love to bring up.

587
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, Nancy. The court that turned us down for

588
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 6: not handing standing not having standing. The second the last

589
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 6: paragraph of the second page, the examination by the medical examiner,

590
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 6: the district attorney, and the detectives were faulty. That's by

591
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 6: a judge.

592
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: Battle Then they.

593
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 6: Went on for thirty to thirty pages saying why we

594
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 6: should have justice for our daughter that's what paved the

595
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 6: way to the Supreme courts. Dancy, I'm sorry, you know what, Josh,

596
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 6: You're right.

597
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, every fact is so important. You're right.

598
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: A court said the investigation was faulty. So now what

599
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: are they going to do? Sandy? What do you think

600
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: will happen next? What do you want?

601
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 5: I want to see the death certificate changed to homicide.

602
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 5: We'll see how quickly that ocurse it occurs. Honestly, I

603
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 5: don't have a lot of legal ease, so I don't

604
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 5: really know where this is going to take us, but

605
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 5: I feel that we made.

606
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: Progress.

607
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 6: It's most important to us that this has done fair

608
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 6: and legal, unlike what happened to our daughter.

609
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: To Sandy and Josh, please know, I know it feels

610
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: like it, but you are not alone tonight. When we

611
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: normally remember a fallen American hero, our heroes tonight are

612
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Parents, out of such deep love

613
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: for their daughter, have sacrificed it all the last fourteen

614
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: years of their life, their livelihoods, their money. They just

615
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: sold their home and now they are true David battling Goliath.

616
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,