1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Ricky Jackson's story, as well as his co defendants, Kwame 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Ajamu and Wylie Bridgman, is a terrifying tale that illustrates 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: just how important and imperative it is to abolish the 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: death penalty. And when we sat down with Ricky at 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty three Innocist Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona, 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: we spoke about everything Ricky is doing to spread that message. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: We're here at the Innocence Network Conference with the one 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: and only Ricky Jackson. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: We recently did a movie docu drama, Lovely Jackson, and 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 2: I've been traveling literally around the world promoting this movie. 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: But not only that, but you know about criminal justice reform. 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 2: Use of this movie is like my segue into those 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: kind of conversations about reform man, because it's a tragedy 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: to know that so many lives have been altered through 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: wrongful convictions and wrongful executions. It effects not only individuals 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: and victims, it affects eye on tires, society. 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: So, Ricky, your home never going back. What's life like 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: for you now? 19 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 2: Well, I taught of myself as being a professional dad. 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: You know that's my number one primary concern. But I'm 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: also an entrepreneur. I own a business. My wife owns 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 2: several businesses. 23 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: You know. 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: We have a home. 25 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: We have two dogs and five kids and a grand baby. 26 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 3: So an apartridge in the par tree and apotridge in 27 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 3: a pear tree. 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 2: Give me all the names we have, Juwan, we have Heavenly, 29 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: we have Lovely my two year old. We have Shamari, 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 2: and our grand baby's name is Royal. 31 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 3: So we got like the. 32 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: Brady Bunch thing going on. I wouldn't trade it for 33 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: the world. 34 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: Make sure you check out Lovely Jackson to put a 35 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: visual to our original coverage of Ricky's case starting now 36 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: On me nineteenth, nineteen seventy five, two men approach fifty 37 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: nine year old Harold Franks outside of a Cleveland, Ohio 38 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: grocery store demanding his briefcase. Franks resisted, and the men 39 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: clubbed him with a pipe and splashed acid in his 40 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: face before shooting him twice in the chest. The shooter 41 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: fired into the grocery store as well, hitting co owner 42 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: Ann Robinson, who survived. Mister Franks, however, did not. An 43 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: eyewitness wrote down the plate number as the assailants sped 44 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: off in a green convertible. Despite the plate number and 45 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: other compelling leads, police instead focused on the word of 46 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: twelve year old Eddie Vernon, who had been bragging about 47 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: witnessing the crime from a bus, repeating an alleged rumer 48 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: naming Ricky Jackson as well as Wiley and Ronnie Bridgeman 49 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: as the assailants. Vernon's classmates and the bus driver denied 50 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: even having the vantage point to see the crime during 51 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: interviews and then the lineup. When Eddie Vernon tried to 52 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: back away from the lie, the investigators threatened to lock 53 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: up his parents if he didn't stick to the story. 54 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: By ignoring more compelling suspects and instead coercing a child, 55 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: the states at Ricky Jackson, as well as Wiley and 56 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: Ronnie Bridge to death rout. When the nineteen seventy four 57 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: reinstatement of the death penalty in Ohio was struck dout 58 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: as unconstitutional in nineteen seventy eight, those condemned between those 59 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: years had their senses commuted to life, including Ronnie, Wileye 60 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: and Ricky, assuring the possibility of their innocence one day 61 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: being recognized. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: Today's story is important in so many ways. The man 63 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: who lived through this, well four decades of imprisonment on 64 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: the basis of an eyewitness who wasn't there, who was 65 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: twelve years old at the time, who was coerced, pressured, 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 1: broutbeaten by authorities, the same authorities who overlooked or ignored 67 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: evidence pointing to the actual to assailants and what was 68 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: a brutal, brutal crime. And I'm very, very honored to 69 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: have the man himself, Ricky Jackson. Ricky, thank you for 70 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: being here today. 71 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me Jason, I appreciate it. 72 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: Thank you. So let's set the stage here. When I 73 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: tell you the name of the place where this occurred, 74 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: people are probably going to be given some knowing nods 75 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: in their car or their home wherever they're listening, because 76 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: it feels like every other episode we do is a 77 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: wrong for conviction based in Cuyahoga County. 78 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: Well, when you look at the number of auxaneries through 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: Kyahoga County, it justifies the statement you just made. At 80 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: least in those times, the police pretty much owned the 81 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: prosecutor's office, the coroner's office. 82 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 3: Whatever they sent up the pipeline. Nobody went against the police. 83 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: No, that's right. And so your story, as you were 84 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: telling me earlier, is important because if it could happen 85 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: to you, it can happen to anyone. And when I 86 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: say that you lived a relatively normal, peaceful life growing up, 87 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: you were only eighteen when this happened. You were still 88 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: really a child, let's face it, but you know, turning 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: into a man. 90 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: I mean back in the mid seventies, you know, life 91 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: was not as hectic as it is today, and I 92 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: was doing the typical eighteen year old stuff. One of 93 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: my friends, or Wilie Bridgeman, he had joined the National Guard. 94 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 3: He came home one day on leave. We saw that 95 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: uniform and we were so all and impressed and amazed 96 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 3: by that that we immediately set our sights so on 97 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: joining the military, you know. 98 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: And you joined the Marines, right, And then we're honorably 99 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: discharged for medical reasons. 100 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: Yes, I was doing a detail and the driver pulled 101 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: off before I had a good firm hold on the 102 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: back of a dump truck and I fell off, and 103 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: my back hasn't been the same. I thought I was 104 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: going to be able to get out. We had my 105 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: back and re enlist. But in the process of doing that, 106 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: Eddie Vernon happened. 107 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: Yes, Eddie Vernon happened. That's a help away of putting 108 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: it is very direct. It all comes down to this kid, 109 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about he was a kid. He was 110 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: twelve years old. I feel that he's a victim in 111 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: this as well. I don't know if you share that belief. 112 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: I do. 113 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 3: I do, I strongly share that. I mean, he was 114 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 3: a twelve year old kid. 115 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at twelve years old, we know how easily 116 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: influenced you can be and how easily scared you can 117 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: be at that age. And then a lie just grows 118 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: into something you can't control. Yeah, it grows horns and 119 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: it gets worse and worse. So Eddie Vernon, was he 120 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: just a kid from the neighborhood. Did you guys know him? 121 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: He used to be a paperboy at one time. I 122 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: remember when I used to come home from school to 123 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 2: have lunch in the winter time. He will be sitting 124 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: at our kitchen table. My mother would like give him 125 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: soup and a grilled cheese sandwich or something like that 126 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: because it was so cold outside. Before he continued on 127 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: with his route. I mean because of our age difference. 128 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: I never, you know, hung out with him and anything, 129 00:06:58,279 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: but I knew his family. 130 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: The crime itself, this is a crime that happened on 131 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: May nineteenth and nineteen seventy five when fifty nine year 132 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: old Harold Franks, who was a money order salesman, where 133 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: he was leaving a grocery store on Fairhill Road in Cleveland, Ohio, 134 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: when two men approached him. The men confronted mister Franks 135 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: and demanded his briefcase. And this is where it gets 136 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: really crazy. When Franks resisted, they clubbed him in the 137 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: head with a pipe and splashed acid in his face. 138 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: What kind of sick people of these? And one of 139 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: the men then shot him twice in the chest and 140 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: fired a shot through the store's glass front door, hitting 141 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: fifty eight year old Ann Robinson, who was the co 142 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: owner of the store. She was shot at the neck, 143 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: but somehow miraculously survived. Mister Franks tragically did not. The 144 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: two robbers fled with the briefcase, remember I said, two 145 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: robbers containing four hundred and twenty five dollars and some 146 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: blank money orders, and they escaped in a green car 147 00:07:58,240 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: that was parked down the street. Did you have a 148 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: green car. 149 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: By the way, No, never, I didn't even own a car. 150 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: Okay man so so and by the way, the three 151 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: guys convicted for a crime. The two guys committed that 152 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: that's just one little fraction of the problems with this case. 153 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: Right fight out. 154 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: As we go along. 155 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: May nineteenth, the crime had just happened not two hundred 156 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: feet from where we lived, the three of us, and so, 157 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: you know, we saw people gradually going towards the fair 158 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: Hill area, and so we asked, like, what's going on, 159 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 2: you know, and they're like, somebody just. 160 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 3: Got killed up at the store. 161 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: We didn't have nothing to do at the particular time, 162 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: so we decided to go up there and be lucky 163 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: lose as well. We got up there, and by the 164 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: time we reached the location, the police were up there. 165 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 2: There were TV cameras out there, the police had the 166 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: area cordoned off, and there was a body with a 167 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: sheet laying askew. And I saw Eddie Vernon at the 168 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: scene at a crime and he was looking around like 169 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: everybody else was. And so we stayed up there for 170 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: a prosequently fifteen to twenty five minutes, and we left. 171 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: The investigation involved detectives Eugene Terpe and James Farmer, as 172 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: well as numerous others. They had the license plate number 173 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: of the green escape car. This case came with instructions 174 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: that escape car belonged to a guy named Ishmael Hickson, 175 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: and they were also pointed this is I mean when 176 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: I read this, my head about exploded. Okay, so get 177 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: this everyone. They were also pointed in the direction of 178 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: Paul Gardenshire, whose own mother contacted the store owner and 179 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: the police to report that her son had a gun 180 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: and that she believed that he was involved in the shooting. 181 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 182 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: The same caliber gun, mind you, of the gun that 183 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: was used to kill mister Franks. 184 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: The guy's freaking mother came forward. And then another informant 185 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: also implicated Gardenship, who said that he stole his grandfather's 186 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: thirty eight caliber gun, which was the murder weapon, and 187 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: was driving around in a convertible that was, yes, you 188 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: guessed it green in color, and that was the escape car. 189 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: These details were not public knowledge at the time, right, 190 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: so this is inside information. And Officer Terpe found the 191 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: green convertible exactly where the informant said it would be. 192 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills. 193 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 3: Now, there were a lot of viable suspects. 194 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: The FBI even got in contact with the Cleveland Police 195 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: Department and told them that you need to be looking at. 196 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: These guys right here. 197 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 2: They have anmo of throwing liquids in people's faces when 198 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: they round them, you know, and you know, the police 199 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: for a time went down this road. But when you 200 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: got a twelve year old boy saying that he was 201 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: an actual eyewitness, you know they're not going to spend 202 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: on that time chasing these leads of what might have 203 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: been when we got an actual witness. 204 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: And of course she referring to Eddie Vernon, who had 205 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: he actually seen anything? And had you and the bridgeman's 206 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: actually been the culprits, he could have pointed you out 207 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: to the police when you were all at the scene 208 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: right after the crime had occurred. But the fact is 209 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: he hadn't seen anything, as he admitted so many long 210 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: years later, he was actually on the bus with a 211 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: bunch of his classmates at the time of the crime. 212 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: They all heard the gunshots, but none of them had 213 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: a vantage point to see anything. It was not possible 214 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: for them to see the crime, not even the bus driver, 215 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: who would have had the best view. So from what 216 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: I understand, there was a rumor that you and the 217 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: Bridgemans may have been involved. We don't know how this 218 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: river got started. Maybe there wasn't even a rumor at all. 219 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: Maybe your name came from the cops. Either way, it's 220 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: hard to know. But how the hell does Eddie end 221 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: up as a target of police coercion and get forced 222 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: into making a statement implicating you as well as Wiley 223 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: and Ronnie Bridgeman. 224 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: Edward Vernon was running around the neighborhood telling people that 225 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: he had saw the whole crime and he knew who 226 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: did it, and so, you know, eventually this got back 227 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: to the gentleman that owned the store where the crime 228 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: took place, and so he tracked Edward Burning down, took 229 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: him back to the store and started grilling him, like, 230 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: if you saw who did this, you need to tell us. 231 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: And so the store owner got the police involved, and 232 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: then the police started putting the screws in Eddie burning 233 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: But upon talking to this twelve year old boy, even 234 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: for a rookie police officer, it would have been easy 235 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: to tell that this kid was fabricating a lot of shit. 236 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I mean this is probably an insecure 237 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: kid who wanted to be the center of attention, so 238 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: he went out and told people he had seen the crime. Well, 239 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: and that's what started this whole snowball effect. And then 240 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: the police get this tunnel vision and they decide that 241 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: they don't really care about investigating the crime. In fact, 242 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: when they did investigate the crime with investigation, they did. 243 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: They collected physical evidence from the scene, but inconveniently, none 244 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: of it matched you, Ronnie or Wiley. So the evidence 245 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: that they did have, which again should have been the 246 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: giant red flag ding ding ding ding thing that should 247 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: have been it, right, all of that evidence pointed to 248 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: other people, including the license plate number of the green 249 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: escape car which they had. 250 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: I mean, and all these people had arm robbery on 251 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: the rap seats. 252 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: So no other investigation was conducted into these or any 253 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: other leads. Once Eddie Vernon came forward, all the other 254 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: investigations stopped and they focused on you three guys with 255 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: absolute total tunnel vision. 256 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: They pretty much kidnapped this kid, you know, and they 257 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: told his parents if they ever tried to get involved 258 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: or ever tried to stop them from coming to get Edward, 259 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: that they would prosecute them. They had complete and total 260 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: control of this twelve year old kid, and so this 261 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: began the process of molding Eddie Vernon from a liar 262 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: and to a lying witness. They pretty much had to 263 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: build this case and give Edward burning information as they 264 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: went along, which is why his testimony and his statement 265 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: changed from day to day, you know, because they were 266 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: feeding him information. He didn't see what happened, and so 267 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: he had to create something and they kept the pressure 268 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 2: on it. Fast forward a few days later, the three 269 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: of us were coming home from a party. Was about 270 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: one o'clock at night, and my dad had this policy 271 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: when he locks his doors at night, all in ain't 272 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: getting in, you know, so it wasn't not common for 273 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: me to, you know, go sleep at the Bridgeman's house, 274 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: who stayed just a couple of houses down for me. Anyway, 275 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: just as I was knotted off, I saw lights going 276 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: by my window, you know, flashlights, and before I could 277 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: get my whereabouts together, the door was exploded. 278 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: In the room was filled with police. 279 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: Officers who with guns lights, and they were shouting my 280 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: name and was shouting at Bridgeman's names. They at me 281 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: first because I was right there on the couch in 282 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: the front room where the door was kicked in. So 283 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: they grabbed me, threw me to the floor, knees in 284 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: the black handcuffed me, asking me what were the bridgeman's 285 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: at And I was so confused. I didn't know what 286 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: to say because I was horrified. I mean, it was 287 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: just like a total shock. But by the time they 288 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: drugged me outside and had me on top of a 289 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: police car, I could look down the street and see 290 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: my entire family. I could see my entire family stressed 291 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: out in the street, and every one of them had 292 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: a shotgun pointed at their heads. 293 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenbrook Traric 294 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: through its pro bono program. Greenberg t leverages it's more 295 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to 296 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 297 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice, 298 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: Greenbrook Triwery attorneys have exonerated in freedomand in Philadelphia, represent 299 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as 300 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and received the American Bar Association's 301 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation 302 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is 303 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: reimagining what big law can be because a more just 304 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: world only happens by design. 305 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: It became obvious to me that they had hit my 306 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: house first en route to the Brisma's house, and they 307 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: finally got the Brismans out of the house, and I mean, 308 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: we will still just totally in shock. 309 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 3: We didn't know what the hell did we do. We 310 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: had just came from a party. 311 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: There was no incident at the party, so we are 312 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: totally confused as to what's going on, not knowing that 313 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: this is all related to that man having got killed 314 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: a couple of days earlier up at Fair Hill. 315 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: We didn't know this at the time. We had no clue. 316 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: We get downtown the next morning, we go into a lineup, 317 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: they do their thing. 318 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 3: They let us out. 319 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: Unbeknownst to us at the time, Eddie Bernon was standing 320 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: behind that two way glass and he refused, he couldn't 321 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: pick anybody. He didn't pick anybody, and so the police 322 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: never told us we were free to go. Instead, they 323 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: took Edward Vernon in the back room, a twelve year 324 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 2: old boy unescorted by a parent or a lawyer, took 325 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: him back in the back room and they threatened him. 326 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: They told him that they couldn't do nothing to him 327 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 2: because he was a kid, but if he didn't pick 328 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: us out in that lineup, Ricky Jackson and Wally Bridgman 329 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: and Ronnie Bridgeman, that they would make sure that he 330 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 2: never saw his mom and dad again. They were sending 331 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: his mom and dad to prison for a long time 332 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: because he started this process. 333 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 3: And now he had to finish it. 334 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: And so while we were outside in the common area 335 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: making a phone call to call our folks and say, well, 336 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 2: you know, they haven't told us anything, so I guess 337 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 2: you can come and get us, he points us out 338 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: while we're out in the common room with hundreds of 339 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: other people prisoners or whatever, making phone calls, and a 340 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: couple hours later, they called us and told us that 341 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: we had been indicted for murder and they were seeking 342 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 2: the death penalty. And that's when we found out that 343 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: Edward Vernon was a kid that was saying that he 344 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: has saw us do this. It was just mind boggling 345 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 2: because my mind instantly went back to that day when 346 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: I saw him standing there at the scene of the crime, 347 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: like everybody else in the neighborhood, you know, and like, 348 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: why wouldn't you say to the police, because there was 349 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: plenty of police. 350 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 3: That's him right. 351 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: There, because Eddie Vernon never saw a freaking thing nothing. 352 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: He just told a lie like many little kids do. 353 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: And then he got roped into repeating that lie in 354 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: an arena where the stakes were well life and death 355 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: and so on May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five, You, 356 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: Wiley and Ronnie were all charged with aggravated murder, aggravated 357 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: attempted murder, as well as aggravated robbery, and the trial 358 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: started that August. You guys went to trial. The prosecution's 359 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: case rested, well, there was nothing else other than the 360 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: testimony of this little kid who is now thirteen. His 361 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: testimony was all over the place. He initially told the 362 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: cops that he was on the bus coming home from 363 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: school when he saw two men attacked mister Franks as 364 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: he got out of his car walked the store. But 365 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: a trial, Eddie testified that he had already gotten off 366 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: the bus when he saw the attack, and that the 367 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: attack occurred as Frank's emerged from the store. So very 368 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: very different than what he originally said. That should have 369 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 1: been a huge flag there as well. Ann Robinson meanwhile 370 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: testify the woman who was shot in the neck that 371 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: she had been shot by a bullet that came to 372 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: the store's front door, but she was unable to identify 373 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: the robbers understandably so. And a sixteen year old neighborhood 374 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: girl testified for the defense, saying that she walked into 375 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: the store just before the attack and saw two, not 376 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: three men outside the store, and that neither of the 377 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: two men or any of you three guys. Very brave 378 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: young girl. Several of Eddie Vernon's classmates testified that he 379 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: was on the bus with them when they heard the 380 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: gun shots, but that none of them were able to 381 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: see the robbers. 382 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 2: During the course of our three separate trials, we had 383 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: nearly every kid on that bus testify in our behalf 384 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 2: about what they saw where the bus was at that time, 385 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: and there was like ten or twelve kids saying the 386 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: same thing. You know, he couldn't have possibly seen it. 387 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 2: We were all on the bus together. He didn't get 388 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: out before we got all we got off at the 389 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: same stop, and the bus driver, he's got the best 390 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: seat in the house, you know, but he didn't see anything. 391 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: But it was so easy to inflame an all white 392 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: jewry when you got a black person accused of killing 393 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: a white person. You know, anything you have to say 394 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: on your behalf now really not listening to that, you know, 395 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 2: Let's just get to the park where we execute this dude. 396 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: You know. 397 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what my trial balled down to, 398 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: you know. I mean a judge even said during a 399 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: recess that he didn't believe the state witness for one minute. 400 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,719 Speaker 2: But I'm not gonna take the power out of jury's hands. 401 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 2: That's your job as a judge. If you have a witness, 402 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: a key witness, you talk about executing three people, and 403 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 2: you say outside of the court record of I don't 404 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: believe this kid for a man that he's lying. I 405 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 2: saw him being coached out in the hallway, but I'm 406 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: not gonna do anything about it. And when you're up 407 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: against stuff like that, there's no way you can win. 408 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: And let us not forget that. In so doing, and 409 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: not just the judge, but the prosecutors, the cops, and 410 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: everybody else who was involved in this fiasco. They're also 411 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: allowing the two guys that committed this disgusting crime to 412 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: remain free. 413 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: Thank you for bringing that up, because it's a point 414 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 2: I try to make so often about the uncounted victims 415 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: that off Boss imprisonment possibly created. 416 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 3: We'll never know the numbers. 417 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: You guys. Meanwhile, did have alibi witnesses who testified. 418 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: I hate to keep saying this man, but whatever we 419 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 2: had to say. Yes, we had a lot of witnesses, 420 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: you know, my mother, I mean, timelines, everything. But all 421 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: they wanted to know was like, when is we gonna 422 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: hang this league? And I'm sorry to say that, but 423 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: that's what I felt like. 424 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: You know. 425 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: It didn't matter what we had to say. It didn't 426 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: matter that the evidence was shitty. A white man is 427 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: dead and somebody needs to pay for it. If they 428 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: didn't do this, they probably did something else, you know, 429 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: And that was the prevailing attitude. How can you be 430 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 2: prepared to kill three young men based on almost absolutely nothing, 431 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: But they were willing to and didn't blink an eye 432 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 2: about it. I spent two and a half years on 433 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 2: death Rod. I came within two months of being executed. 434 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: This has got to stop. For a long time, I 435 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: thought that this was just a ratio and an economical issue. 436 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 3: But this happens that everybody. 437 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: I know a lot of gunneries from around the country, 438 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: including Hawaii. You know what I'm saying, that had professions, 439 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: they had children, they were happily married, and they got 440 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: caught up in this same madness. 441 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: They got caught up in the same madness. 442 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: And when it's you against the state, guess what, You're 443 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 2: gonna lose every time. You are gonna lose every time 444 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: because they don't have to follow the rules. And if 445 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 2: they get caught, guess what, there's no repercussions. 446 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: Right. Imagine if the suspect went to a twelve year 447 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: old kid and threatened him, I'm gonna take your parents 448 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: away from you. You'll never see him again unless you 449 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: do exactly what I said. You lie like I tell 450 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: you too. I mean, we all know that no one's 451 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: allowed to bribe a witness, but the government can offer 452 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,479 Speaker 1: them plea deals. I can threaten them and not supposed 453 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: to threaten them, but they do. But they can definitely 454 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: offer them plea deals, and that's the best price of all. 455 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, you have no shot in hell. 456 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and you had no shot in hell. 457 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: So in August of nineteen seventy five, you were convicted 458 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: along with Wiley, and Ronnie was convicted in September, and 459 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: all of you were sentenced to death, later commuted to 460 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: life in prison, which is like a living death sentence. 461 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: What was your experience of death. 462 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: Throw The moment you got back, there was always this 463 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 2: feeling I'm impending doom, like it was right around the corner. 464 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: You know. 465 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: You had you had two options, go crazy or you 466 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: accept this. 467 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: And make it work for you. 468 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: You know. 469 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 3: I was on the mission anyway, you know. I was innocent, 470 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 3: you know, and I wasn't gonna lay back here waiting 471 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 3: for my death. Dating. 472 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 2: So between my workouts, I would write. I wrote so 473 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: many letters, you know, And they cut the lights off 474 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 2: at a certain time in prison, so you got to 475 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: get up on the bars and like get the little 476 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: light coming out from the security light outside. And I'm up, 477 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: like two thirty in the morning just writing anybody that 478 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: would listen, you know, like I'm on death row, my 479 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 2: execution data so and so so and so I'm innocent. 480 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: My two friends are innocent looking to my case, you know. 481 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: And that's what I did, worked out, made friends back there, 482 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: you know, You survived, man, the best you could, you know, 483 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: like I said, but it was always an impending doom 484 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: while I was back there. You know, the Ohio state 485 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: legislation was in flux about what they wanted to do 486 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: with the death penalty and soul. They placed the moratorium 487 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: on executions, and that's what eventually got everybody off of 488 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 2: death Row. 489 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 3: Doing my stint back there. 490 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: But life in general back there was like, you don't 491 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: have a life. Your life is on the calendar. You know, 492 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 2: you can see the end of your life. It's on 493 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: the calendar. So you live from day to day and 494 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: hope something comes down from the United States Supreme Court 495 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: or the Higher Supreme Court that's going to spare your life. 496 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: You know, things could have went the other way. This 497 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 2: interview might not ever be happening today. My daughter might 498 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 2: not be here today, my wife, my other children. Things 499 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: could have easily went the other way. 500 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: You know. 501 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: It's not uncommon for innocent people to get executed. It 502 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: happens all the time. 503 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: So I know you had been writing letters. A very 504 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: powerful image you gave before from death row leaning up 505 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: against the bars to get a little bit of light 506 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: you could get. So you had written probably to everybody 507 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: and their mother by this point. But how did you 508 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: manage to get the Ohio Innocent's Project particulication? When did 509 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: they get about I. 510 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: Think it was around two thousand and five when I 511 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: first wrote them. They were just themselves starting up. I 512 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: contacted them and I gave them in particulars of my case. 513 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: It was a long process, I mean, because they vetted 514 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 2: everything that you send them and say to them, because 515 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 2: they only you deal with totally innocent people. I said, 516 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: over a period of like three and a half years, 517 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: I got a letter from saying that they had decided, 518 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 2: after reviewing my case, to take our case. It took 519 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: another additional three or four years, you know, to get 520 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 2: to the point of the recantation for Maddie Vernon. 521 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: So Okay. Twenty eleven, Cleveland Scene magazine published a very 522 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: detailed examination of the case and highlighted the many, many 523 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: inconsistencies in Vernon's testimony, as well as the absence of 524 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: any other evidence linking you, Ronnie or Wiley to the crime. 525 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: And the article pointed out that Vernon had been paid 526 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: fifty dollars by Ann Robinson's husband to testify at the trial. Okay, 527 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: now fifty dollars in nineteen seventy. Whatever it was to 528 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: a twelve year old kid, probably was a lot of money. 529 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: But besides that, there's all the other stuff. But that 530 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: was the fact, most importantly that Vernon had failed to 531 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: mention in his testimony that he had literally been paid 532 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: for it. Okay, So Kyle Swenson, the recorder who wrote 533 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: this article, attempted to interview Eddie Vernon, but he refused 534 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: to talk about the case. So Swinson reached out to 535 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: Vernon's pastor, Arthur Singleton. This Swinson, guy, man, I'd like 536 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: to buy him a beer. When Singleton mentioned to Vernon 537 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: that the reporter wanted to talk to him, Vernon brushed 538 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: him off, telling him to ignore the reporter. But months 539 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: later Swinson sent his article to Singleton, who asked Vernon 540 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: about it, and still Vernon refused to talk about it. 541 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, Singleton paid a visit to Vernon in 542 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: a hospital where Eddie Vernon was being treated for high 543 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: blood pressure. Singleton later said in a sworn Affidavid that 544 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: he asked Vernon again about the article, and this is 545 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: a direct quote. Eddie Vernon told me that he lied 546 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: to the police when he said he had witnessed the 547 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: murder in nineteen seventy five and he had put three 548 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: innocent men in prison for the murder end quote. Then 549 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: another quote, he told me that he tried to back 550 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: out of the lie at the time of the lineup, 551 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: but he was only a child that the police told 552 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: him it was too late to change his story end quote. 553 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: Singleton said that Vernon then broke down and wept, and 554 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 1: he said, quote I could see the weight being lifted 555 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: from his shoulders end quote. 556 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: By then, I and myself, Brian Howell, Mark Gatzi, and 557 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: the rest of the team were quite familiar with each other. 558 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: I get a call one day and Brian said, I 559 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: could immediately tell that it was something something I've been 560 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: waiting for for a long time. I didn't know what 561 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: it was, but I knew just by his attitude and 562 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: the way he was trying to keep his composure, I 563 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: knew it was something big. And when he told me 564 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 2: that Eddie Vernon had recanted his testimony being a lawyer, 565 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 2: that he is the great lawyer that he is, he 566 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: was like, Yep, this is great, but it's not the 567 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: end of the journey, you know. Now we have to 568 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: get a judge to accept this. And I got to 569 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: tell you, Ricky, recantations are the hardest piece of evidence 570 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 2: to get before a judge. You know, once a witness 571 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: makes a statement, that's it. We're going to assume what 572 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: we can do. 573 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: So now, after this recantation, Brian Howe and Mark Gotsei 574 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: at the Ohio Innocence Project filed the petition for a 575 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: new trial on behalf of you Ricky Jackson, and similar 576 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: petitions were later filed on behalf of the Bridgeman brothers, 577 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: and the Ohio Innocence Project's reinvestigation of the case uncovered 578 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: evidence that when Vernon attempted to recant his identification of 579 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: the three defendant's, police intimidated him to testify falsely. The 580 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: police had never disclosed to the defense attorneys to any 581 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: of you guys that Vernon attempted to recant his accusations 582 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: prior to the trials. Of course, if they had, it 583 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: would have blown the case up. So of course they didn't, right, 584 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: because they were just deep in their own lives now. So, 585 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: police reports obtained by Ohiouse Innocence Project also showed the 586 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: police considered the two other men, Paul Gardenshire and Ismael 587 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Hickson as suspects, but their investigation was terminated as soon 588 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: as this young kid falsely identified you three guys. And 589 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: of course, lastly, the license plate on the green car 590 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: scene speeding away from the crime, was matched to a 591 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: car belonging to mister Hickson, whose record, his long rap sheet, 592 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: included a robbery and a shooting a year earlier. Back 593 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six, a year after the Franks murder, 594 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: Hickson pled guilty to over a dozen counts of aggravated robbery. 595 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: So now we get to twenty fourteen. Judge Richard mcmonagall 596 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: held a hearing on your motion for a new trial. 597 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: Eddie Vernon testified that police had bet him. The details 598 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: of the crime is direct quote from him. I don't 599 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: have any knowledge about what happened at the scene of 600 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: the crime. Everything was a lie. They were all lies. 601 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: End quote. 602 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: Edward Vernon was the catalyst to all of this. He 603 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: got all of this started, He got us locked up. 604 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: But in the end his testimony is what got us free. 605 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: Anybody that was in that courtroom, in that gallery that day, 606 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: hearing him from the witness stand, I have no doubt 607 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: in anyone's mind that this was a guy that had 608 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: made a terrible mistake and now he's sitting here, everybody 609 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 2: against him, everybody hating him. But he's sitting up here 610 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: and doing what he know he has to do. And 611 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: he did it, man, he really did it. And so 612 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: I know a lot of people can't understand this, People 613 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: like I don't care, I still would hate him or whatever. 614 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 3: Well, that's the y'all's problem to deal with. I don't 615 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 3: have no time for it. 616 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: You know, I'm just giving credit what credit is due 617 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: because his testimony and his candor, oh, that witness stand 618 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: was tent about to us being free here today. 619 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: So Vernon told the judge that he was on the 620 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: bus when he heard two pops that sounded like firecrackers. 621 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: A bus was, you know, in the neighborhood, in the 622 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: area of the store, but not near enough to the 623 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: crime scene that he could have seen anything that took place, 624 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: just like all the other kids on the bus had said. 625 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,719 Speaker 1: But based on a rumor he heard on the street, 626 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: he went to the scene and told police that you 627 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: three guys committed the crime. He was thinking at the 628 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: timers doing the right thing, he said to the officer, 629 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: and that you do who did it? But he testified 630 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: that he had tried to recamp. The detectives took him 631 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,760 Speaker 1: to a room, just like you said, into a room 632 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: and told them that they would arrest his parents for 633 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: perjury and he would never see them again, etc. So 634 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: he agreed to testify at the trials. So he a 635 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: traumatized kid at that point, and I can't even imagine 636 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: being in his shoes, much less yours. 637 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 2: The court had decided to take a brief recess, and 638 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: the prosecutor went to the bench and they talked to 639 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: the judge and they took me back into my holding 640 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 2: sale and I was in there about a minute, and 641 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: my lawyers came in and said, Rick, they got a 642 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: proposition for you. They said, if you plead guilty right 643 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: now to all the charges, they'll consider sitting served and 644 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: you can go home today. And we got to have 645 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: a decision right now. I mean nothing in the courtroom 646 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 2: was guaranteed. This was guaranteed. You know, plead guilty and 647 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 2: you can go home today, but you're gonna live your 648 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: life as a convicted murderer. It only took a few 649 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: seconds when I told my lawyers, like, you know what, man, 650 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: I'm innocent, and it came too far at this point, 651 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 2: I ain't got nothing to lose. I'm gonna stay with 652 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: the hand I was deal. We went out there, We 653 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 2: went back out in the courtroom and proceeded with the proceedings. 654 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: And after most of the testimony, the pertinent testimony, the 655 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: prosecution once again went to the bench, and I heard 656 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: the judge say are you sure in a whispery tone, 657 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 2: and the lady nodded, and they went back to their 658 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 2: prospective benches, and the. 659 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 3: Judge asked me to rise. 660 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: He said that the state was not gonna, you know, 661 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 2: they weren't going to pursue me anymore. In other words, 662 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: they weren't going to try to prosecute me anymore. They 663 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: really believed that was innocent, you know, And it was 664 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: just as simple man. After all that. 665 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: It was just a simple man. 666 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: So Cuyahoga, the county prosecutor, Timothy McGuinty said, and this 667 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: is very powerful, he said, quote the state concedes the obvious. Wow. 668 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: McGonagall journed the hearing, granted motions for the new trial 669 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: filed by you and Wiley, and vacated your convictions. Ronnie's 670 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: conviction would later be vacated as well. The prosecution then 671 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: dismissed the charge, and you were released after thirty nine years, 672 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: three months, and nine days, and would you say four 673 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: hours on top of that, and at that time you 674 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: were the longest serving defendant exonerated in US history. We 675 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: know that there are others who