Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism. It's the patriarchy, zeph and
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Jamie, I am your father. Oh join me, we can
Speaker 2: rule this podcast as father and son.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: You didn't chant you, you only added the word podcast.
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, no, I would sooner free fall
Speaker 2: into space. Then rule this podcast with you. You sick? Oh fascist? Wow? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know it's my birthday though, I know. Sorry, happy birthday,
Speaker 2: but you did, Yeavy and you you brought it on yourself.
Speaker 2: We can't. We can't excuse fascism just because it's your birthday. Caitlin,
Speaker 2: Happy birthday, thank you. It's true. This is my birthday
Speaker 2: episode Big Year. Holy shit. Yeah, I'm forty bitch. I
Speaker 2: love it.
Speaker 3: I love it, and you've well tell tell the listeners
Speaker 3: at home how you've been celebrating.
Speaker 2: It's kind of been. I like that for you. You
Speaker 2: are so good at having a birthday and it becomes
Speaker 2: birthday season, not birthday the day. Yeah, it's a whole
Speaker 2: this time around, it's a whole year. I started in April.
Speaker 2: My birthday is in a few days from the release
Speaker 2: of this episode, but I started back in April by
Speaker 2: going to London to see Paddington the musical. That was
Speaker 2: my big birthday treat to myself, and it did not disappoint.
Speaker 2: It was so good. I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 3: That is like, Yeah, the second it happened, I was like,
Speaker 3: I know that Caitlin is going to find their way there.
Speaker 2: It really is just a matter of when. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: you made quick work of it, Thank you, thank you. Yes,
Speaker 2: I was very efficient. But yeah. And one of the
Speaker 2: other ways I'm celebrating is by making us talk about
Speaker 2: Empire strikes Back.
Speaker 3: Which I am actually I mean, wow, life comes at
Speaker 3: you fast because I'm so happy to do it, and
Speaker 3: I can't imagine myself saying that when this podcast started. No,
Speaker 3: I mean, this is just like a big nostalgia year,
Speaker 3: especially us wise, because it's our ten year. We're still
Speaker 3: figuring out how to celebrate.
Speaker 2: You know. But I think so much about how I remember,
Speaker 2: like your thirtieth birthday show at Nerd Melt yeah, and
Speaker 2: how that was a time where it was around the
Speaker 2: time that the Star Wars sequels were starting to come out,
Speaker 2: and I just couldn't have cared less. But time continued
Speaker 2: to march on, and then I realized I was wrong
Speaker 2: as hell. These movies are fun, They're good, They're fun
Speaker 2: and flawed. And guess what, I'm not better than a
Speaker 2: damn person in the world, unlike I thought when this
Speaker 2: twenty two or whatever. So I'm so excited. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean should we? I guess If this is your first
Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast episode, welcome. It's a fun one and we'll
Speaker 2: tell you what the show is really quick. This is
Speaker 2: our podcast where we take a look at your favorite.
Speaker 3: Movies and in this case, Caitlin's favorite movies, using an
Speaker 3: intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test as the jumping
Speaker 3: off point for a discussion.
Speaker 2: But Caitlin, yes, what is that? What is that? Not
Speaker 2: to quiz you on your birthday? Yeah, while making me
Speaker 2: do labor. It is a media metric created by our
Speaker 2: dear friend of the podcast, Alison Bechdel. Quick version is
Speaker 2: and our version is it? Do two characters of a
Speaker 2: marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?
Speaker 2: And is there conversation about something other than a man?
Speaker 2: And I think you'll find the reason that we're kind
Speaker 2: of glazing over the specifics of the test in the
Speaker 2: case of this movie is because well, it doesn't pass.
Speaker 2: Even does it doesn't help plow even a little bit
Speaker 2: to this movie.
Speaker 3: So you know, like there are certain episodes where we
Speaker 3: get really specific about like, well, it could mean this.
Speaker 2: It could mean this.
Speaker 3: But there are certain movies where you're like, well it
Speaker 3: either it's episodes where it happens a lot or never
Speaker 3: even runs the risk of happening, and this is the latter.
Speaker 3: We don't really need to get into the.
Speaker 2: Nitty gritty today, No we don't, but we do need
Speaker 2: to get into the nitty gritty of our relationship with
Speaker 2: Star Wars and Jamie, you were already talking a little
Speaker 2: bit about yours, but tell us what's your relationship with
Speaker 2: this movie specifically and then the larger universe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been it's been a journey. We actually we
Speaker 3: talked about this a fair amount in our Prequels tour,
Speaker 3: which happened early last fall in the Midwest, where my
Speaker 3: relationship with Star Wars began with the prequel. I just
Speaker 3: was not a sci fi kid at all. I was
Speaker 3: not sci fi or fantasy. I know, we were very
Speaker 3: different sci fi fantasy action. We're just not my vibe.
Speaker 3: I was like, performatively to criticize myself at eleven years old,
Speaker 3: performatively against a lot of it, because I don't know.
Speaker 3: I had this mentality that like magic was cheating, So
Speaker 3: that's why I don't know. But Star Wars, obviously, I
Speaker 3: remember I didn't see the first prequel in theaters. I
Speaker 3: did see the second one at a drive in, and
Speaker 3: remember it being the first movie.
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, that was boring, and you were
Speaker 2: not wrong. I was not wrong, and you can listen
Speaker 2: to our Prequels episode for more on that. And then
Speaker 2: the third one I performatively loved because they like kind
Speaker 2: of turned Darth Vader into like a sexy, hot topic character,
Speaker 2: which I was into so all over the place. But
Speaker 2: I never really watched or engaged with the original trilogy
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, so I wouldn't have seen
Speaker 2: The Empire Strikes Back at least until I lived in
Speaker 2: LA I would guess, not for the first time until
Speaker 2: like the last five years.
Speaker 3: Probably I just never I mean, and then it definitely
Speaker 3: rewatched it last summer when I was doing like pretty
Speaker 3: heavy prep on the prequel and the original trilogy for
Speaker 3: our for our tour, so I can now confidently say
Speaker 3: all this, YadA, YadA, YadA. I can now confidently say
Speaker 3: that Empire Strikes Back is indeed my favorite of the
Speaker 3: first trilogy.
Speaker 2: It's a lot of people's favorite.
Speaker 3: I would see, Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a
Speaker 3: controversial opinion, but it like it just it hits, it hits,
Speaker 3: and it I mean, while it makes a lot of
Speaker 3: the mistakes that movies of its era also make, there's
Speaker 3: a lot of tokenism, there's a lot of like there's well,
Speaker 3: we'll talk about it, but I think that in terms
Speaker 3: of mistakes that Star Wars often makes, it tends to
Speaker 3: avoid a few that I associate with this franchise in
Speaker 3: a way that I appreciate. And the performances are so fun.
Speaker 3: It's a great story. I love Lawrence Casten. I enjoyed
Speaker 3: learning about Lee Brackett, who I didn't really know anything about.
Speaker 3: Same and yeah, I don't know, I just this is
Speaker 3: my favorite one of the trilogy.
Speaker 2: Although I think that because I know your favorite is
Speaker 2: Return of the Jedi, that while that's.
Speaker 3: Not one that I love, I do love the Ewoks
Speaker 3: and if the Ewoks were in Empire strikes Back, it
Speaker 3: would be a perfect movie.
Speaker 2: I agree, yes, thank you. I know that I cite
Speaker 2: Ewoks as the reason that I love Return of the
Speaker 2: Jedi the most, and that's not entirely true. There are
Speaker 2: other things I like about it. And also, and I
Speaker 2: might have brought this up before, either on this podcast
Speaker 2: or I've guested on other Star Wars things in the past,
Speaker 2: but the version of Return of the Jedi that I
Speaker 2: watched growing up was an edited for TV version of
Speaker 2: the movie that we taped from TV onto a blank VHS,
Speaker 2: which like just trims a lot of the I think
Speaker 2: unnecessary bits from that movie makes it a lot tighter,
Speaker 2: and that version is my favorite movie. When I watched
Speaker 2: the theatrical cut of Return of the Jedi, there's weird
Speaker 2: stuff that wasn't in the edited down version that I saw,
Speaker 2: and I was like, what the hell is this? I yeah,
Speaker 2: I get why people think it's kind of not the best,
Speaker 2: But was there anything else about your your relationship with
Speaker 2: Star Wars Before I start to wax poetic about it, No,
Speaker 2: I just my favorite. I love Babbu Frick. I didn't
Speaker 2: see The Last Jedi when it came out in theaters.
Speaker 3: I might have seen episode seven, but we definitely saw episode.
Speaker 2: Nine together and we were freaking it up. That's my
Speaker 2: full history. Incredible for my Star Wars fandom. I mean,
Speaker 2: you have history, I've got history. This is a fandom
Speaker 2: that I do not talk about as much as some
Speaker 2: of my other fandoms, such as Paddington or Titanic, for example.
Speaker 2: But I am a long time Star Wars head, especially
Speaker 2: this original trilogy. I am not a completionist when it
Speaker 2: comes to all the Star Wars content out there. There
Speaker 2: are a bunch of series that I haven't watched, and
Speaker 2: I mean, at some point it's just like it kiss
Speaker 2: to be too much. Yeah, so there are many fans
Speaker 2: who know a lot more like Star Wars lore than me.
Speaker 2: But I've seen this original trilogy dozens of times, probably
Speaker 2: starting around like age nine or ten. This specific movie
Speaker 2: I've watched many many times. I love the World. I
Speaker 2: also love and Or. I have an and Or tattoo.
Speaker 2: I also love Baboo frick Ough now we're talking. I'm
Speaker 2: back excited to see him in the Mandalorian movie that's
Speaker 2: about to come out. I can't wait.
Speaker 3: We were just talking about because we were just talking
Speaker 3: about Kerry Fisher on a recent episode of Daly's Eeitgeist Icons.
Speaker 3: Yeah I haven't seen him. Sec Oh I remember you
Speaker 3: texting me saying that the Babu frick Gians were in
Speaker 3: Mandalorian season three.
Speaker 2: Right, that wasn't me because I did not watch the
Speaker 2: show that far.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, someone must have told me either way. But yeah,
Speaker 3: he's he's back, baby, He's on the poster and everything.
Speaker 2: I can't wait. Oh yeah, I'm very excited. So yeah,
Speaker 2: like because that movie's coming out, it felt also like
Speaker 2: a good time to talk about this movie, specifically because
Speaker 2: the lore of the mandolori Orians, like Bobaffett is like
Speaker 2: one of those people. The first Star Wars movie that
Speaker 2: he appears in is this one. I think, Like, I
Speaker 2: know he's not in a note of hope, but there's
Speaker 2: like also random like there's a Christmas special that everyone
Speaker 2: forgets about. But anyway, like I mean, people talk about
Speaker 2: the Christmas Special. This isn't isn't isn't Boba Fett like
Speaker 2: a meaningful part of that. I barely remember it. I
Speaker 2: just remember you meet Chewbacca's whole family and they look
Speaker 2: so fucking freaky. But honestly is worth a watch. We
Speaker 2: should watch it some Christmas together, should cover it, We
Speaker 2: should cover it, Yes, yes, but yeah, I love Empire
Speaker 2: strikes Back, and yet Return of the Jedi is still
Speaker 2: my favorite, and I will probably insist that we cover
Speaker 2: that for another birthday episode of mine, maybe even next year.
Speaker 2: We'll see Oh my god, wow. Okay, but uh yeah.
Speaker 2: Shall we take a quick break and then come back
Speaker 2: for the recap. Let's do it and we're back. Okay.
Speaker 2: So first, I'll start with a very brief recap of
Speaker 2: episode four, just in case anyone needs a refresher. The
Speaker 2: evil Galactic Empire has built this huge planet destroying Death
Speaker 2: Star space station thing. We meet Princess Leah. She's a
Speaker 2: member of the Rebel Alliance that are rebelling against the Empire.
Speaker 2: She puts blueprints for the Death Star into R two
Speaker 2: D two and then he and C three po escape
Speaker 2: to the planet of Tattooine, where they end up in
Speaker 2: the possession of Luke Skywalker, who links up with a
Speaker 2: Jedi knight named Obi Wan Kenobi. Together, they find a
Speaker 2: hologram message from Princess Leah about these Death Star plans,
Speaker 2: so they set off to deliver R two D two
Speaker 2: and the plans to the secret base of the Rebel Alliance.
Speaker 2: They do so in the Millennium Falcon, a ship piloted
Speaker 2: by space smugglers Han Solo and Chewbacca. You've seen it
Speaker 2: at the Lego store. Yes, it's a you know, a
Speaker 2: little known ship called the Millennium Falcon. And then as
Speaker 2: they're flying around in this ship, they get pulled into
Speaker 2: the tractor beam of the Death Star, where they find
Speaker 2: and rescue Princess Leia, who had been captured by Darth Vader,
Speaker 2: the big bad Boy. Yeah, and if you don't know
Speaker 2: who Darth Vader is, we can't help you. Sorry, we
Speaker 2: cannot help you. Yes, yeah, he and Obi Wan Kanobi
Speaker 2: have a lightsaber battle. Obi Wan is killed, the others
Speaker 2: escape in the Millennium Falcon again and they make it
Speaker 2: to the rebel base where the Death Star plans are analyzed.
Speaker 2: They discover a weakness and after this big space battle,
Speaker 2: Luke Skywalker blows up the Death Star. The end and Now,
Speaker 2: and that leads us right into episode five. Empire strikes
Speaker 2: back with a very satisfying little time jump that I appreciated. Yes,
Speaker 2: we skip over some stuff and we're caught up to
Speaker 2: speed in the famous Star Wars opening scroll. Of course,
Speaker 2: I believe it's been a couple of years since the
Speaker 2: first I was seeing three years after the destruction of
Speaker 2: the Death Star, is what I was saying, which actually
Speaker 2: I didn't remember in preparing for this, and actually did
Speaker 2: kind of help address some of the story questions I had,
Speaker 2: where you're just like, well, it's been three years, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of shit that's gone on. It's been
Speaker 2: eighty four years minus eighty one years. At this point,
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, Lea and Han, it's like it's
Speaker 2: like a work crush, you know, like it's not love
Speaker 2: it for a sight. They've been they've been colleagues, yes,
Speaker 2: for years, right, And we don't know exactly how much
Speaker 2: time they've spent together in those three years. Yes, I
Speaker 2: was not totally clear on that. But we learn in
Speaker 2: the opening scroll that Imperial troops are hunting members of
Speaker 2: the Rebel Alliance across the galaxy. A group of Rebel fighters,
Speaker 2: including our friends Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Han, Solo, Tobacca
Speaker 2: C three, PO R two D two, and others, have
Speaker 2: established a secret base on the ice planet of Hath. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: Darth Vader is obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker and has
Speaker 2: sent out like probes to look for him. Question Mark, like,
Speaker 2: we I have to believe we're not meant to truly know.
Speaker 3: I did, Like I remember when I rewatched it last summer,
Speaker 3: being like, ooh, this is a fun little fashion moment
Speaker 3: in the Empire strikes back that because it starts on Hath,
Speaker 3: like everyone kind of has this like little ellll Bean.
Speaker 2: Thing going on where they're wearing parkas, and there's at
Speaker 2: least for Han and Luke, there's a big like I
Speaker 2: took my hood off and here I am and I'm
Speaker 2: still sexy and awesome moment that is so like we
Speaker 2: come to this place. I really I enjoyed it. I
Speaker 2: enjoyed the the de robing. Sure, sure, yeah, I meant
Speaker 2: to do this earlier during my like history and relationship
Speaker 2: with Star Wars. But I have a little show and
Speaker 2: tell moment if you'll indulge me. Oh please, I have
Speaker 2: a bunch of Star Wars memorabilia that I've collected over
Speaker 2: the years. Huh and so first, great for a podcast
Speaker 2: that we've refused to pivot to video. A Yes, this
Speaker 2: is an audio medium. However, I will describe these things
Speaker 2: and then people will really, you're a writer, Wow, thank you.
Speaker 2: We're going to conjure an image. My tools are words. Okay,
Speaker 2: So this thing is a canister of haf chocolate, Hoth cocoa. Wow, yeah,
Speaker 2: ok yeah, Hoth coco. I also have a Boba fet
Speaker 2: This is a coin bank. What is it about?
Speaker 3: What is it about boba fet that is so appealing
Speaker 3: to people? I like, I've never quite understood it because
Speaker 3: I was so surprised on the rewatch of being like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is the movie, we meet Boba fetted and.
Speaker 2: He's so like random to me. I just like, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't understand why people have but people have like
Speaker 2: an absolutely, like fervent connection to this character. I never
Speaker 2: really understood it either. He does appear on screen a
Speaker 2: little bit more in Return of the Jedi, but cumulatively
Speaker 2: his moments on screen and Empire are maybe one minute
Speaker 2: of screen timely there. They don't even call him my
Speaker 2: name either. Darth Vader just keeps calling him bounty hunter.
Speaker 2: He's a guy doing cool stuff. But there's a lot
Speaker 2: of guys doing cool stuff in Star Wars, and I
Speaker 2: don't think the prequels really help retcon that, honestly, because you're.
Speaker 3: Like, oh, Boba fet has a difficult relationship with his father.
Speaker 3: What's fucking new in this franchise?
Speaker 2: So true? God? Yes, Okay, a few more items, and
Speaker 2: some of them are very specific to this movie. This
Speaker 2: is a little book called I Just as Soon Kiss
Speaker 2: a Wookie and other Star Wars quotes. This is a
Speaker 2: book called the Star Wars Cookbook Wookie Cookies, Wookie Cookies. Yes,
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it was just sitting there precisely.
Speaker 2: This is a book called how to Speak Wookie. And
Speaker 2: then there's buttons on it. I wonder if the batteries
Speaker 2: are still alive. No, they sure aren't. I'd pressed a
Speaker 2: button and nothing happened. Okay. Last thing I'll share is
Speaker 2: we simply can't forget my Ladies of Star Wars Deck
Speaker 2: of Cards. Yes, yes, I honestly do sometimes because my
Speaker 2: my recall on the original trilogy. Unfortunately, my recall is
Speaker 2: best on the prequels because and again you should go
Speaker 2: back and listen to our Prequels episode because I'm very
Speaker 2: proud we did a lot of work to prep for that.
Speaker 2: We sure did. But this one. This one, for me
Speaker 2: at least, is gonna be a little looser because I
Speaker 2: did not have weeks to prepare and or tickets on
Speaker 2: the line. Yeah, but I kind of forgot if this
Speaker 2: was the the one with Java or not. It is
Speaker 2: not the one with Java, and I think that that
Speaker 2: works to its advantage quite a bit, I would say so.
Speaker 2: Although I love the sequence at Jaba's palace, so I.
Speaker 3: I, okay, this is like, well, this is related but
Speaker 3: not related to Empire Strikes Back. But I was so
Speaker 3: shocked because I'm so out of the loop with this
Speaker 3: franchise that I know that, like fans.
Speaker 2: Knew about Jeremy Allen Jaba for probably months and years,
Speaker 2: but I was so when I was watching the trailer
Speaker 2: for the Mandalorian and Grogu and they were like Jeremy
Speaker 2: Allen White, and I was like, where I must have
Speaker 2: missed me? I don't know about this of what do
Speaker 2: you speak? Look up Jeremy Allen White Star Wars. He's
Speaker 2: playing like Jaba's son nephew. Ever, forget where it is.
Speaker 2: He's Jeremy Allen Jaba. You're like, what, Well, if you
Speaker 2: recall I made a big deal about Jaba's small son
Speaker 2: who appears in Is that Jeremy Allan Jaba. I was
Speaker 2: so let me see. I also was like, I guess
Speaker 2: I don't understand what point in his career Jeremy Allen
Speaker 2: why does that? This is a confusing career marker where
Speaker 2: you're like, you can be in Star Wars, We're not
Speaker 2: gonna look at you like, yeah, well, it's like when
Speaker 2: Daniel Craig plays a Stormtrooper who's on screen for like
Speaker 2: three seconds in one of the sequels. Yeah, but you
Speaker 2: wouldn't know if it was him because he's in a Stormtrooper.
Speaker 2: But he was already very famous by that point. But
Speaker 2: Jeremy Allan Jaba is like second built. He's like a
Speaker 2: big part of Yeah, he plays Roda the hut Rada,
Speaker 2: the hut I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but yeah,
Speaker 2: he's calling him Jeremy Allen Jaba. That I just was.
Speaker 2: I don't know why that was so shocking to me.
Speaker 2: I just don't think of him as Jeremy Allen Jaba.
Speaker 2: I mean, he contains multitudes, I guess. So anyway, anyways,
Speaker 2: can't wait for Baba Frick, I will be seeing Jeremy
Speaker 2: Allen Jaba in theaters. Same do you want to go together?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, if you'll have me, I will. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 2: let's do this, do it? Okay? Back to fire strikes back,
Speaker 2: we cut too. Hof the ice planet, Luke is riding
Speaker 2: around on his ton Ton creature when the Abominable Snowman
Speaker 2: attacks and captures him. This is so iconic where you're
Speaker 2: just like, I didn't know that he could get to
Speaker 2: wherever this is. It is like right up there with
Speaker 2: monsters incorporated, with places you don't expect to see. The
Speaker 2: Abominable Snowman appear. No, he's around. Yeah, he gets around.
Speaker 2: He gets around, including a long time ago in a
Speaker 2: galaxy far far away, and so he captures Luke Skywalker. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: on the rebel base, Han Solo is getting ready to
Speaker 2: leave to pay off his debt to Jaba the Hut,
Speaker 2: father of Jeremy Allen Jaba. Princess Leah gets when the
Speaker 2: Han Solo is planning to leave, and she wants him
Speaker 2: to stay because he's a valuable asset to the rebellion
Speaker 2: and also maybe because she likes him. Question Mark, We'll
Speaker 2: talk about it. We'll talk about it. But whatever feelings
Speaker 2: they have for each other, they are unw willing to
Speaker 2: admit it to each other, and also it's mostly Han
Speaker 2: solo being a complete dick. Yeah. Hahn realizes that Luke
Speaker 2: is missing, so he goes out looking for him. Cut
Speaker 2: to Luke in an ice cave, the Abominable Snowman's ice cave,
Speaker 2: where he uses his Jedi powers that he's been working
Speaker 2: on to summon his lightsaber and kill the Abominable Snowman.
Speaker 2: But the Abottable Snowman made an incredible recovery at least
Speaker 2: by two thousand and one. In Monsters Inc. To meet
Speaker 2: Mike Wazaski. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, of course, Luke
Speaker 2: escapes into the blizzard. He's freezing to death. He starts
Speaker 2: Jedi hallucinating and sees a vision of Obi Wan Kenobi,
Speaker 2: who tells him to go to the Dagabus system and
Speaker 2: find Master Yoda so that Luke can complete his Jedi training.
Speaker 2: It's part of there ison that Jedi shit is so
Speaker 2: fun and has to be so useful as a writer,
Speaker 2: because it is just having a plot hallucination, a plot
Speaker 2: based hallucination. Whenever it's convenient, Obi Wan Kenobi's ghost like
Speaker 2: force ghost will just show up and either deliver some
Speaker 2: exposition or move the plot forward, and you.
Speaker 3: Really don't need It's not that you don't need to,
Speaker 3: it's that you're not allowed to ask questions because the
Speaker 3: very concept of faith is on the line. It's a
Speaker 3: very high stakes plot device they have.
Speaker 2: There, yeah, yeah, and good for them. Yeah. So then
Speaker 2: Han Solo finds and rescues Luke. They return to the base,
Speaker 2: where Han continues to be a dick. So Leah kisses
Speaker 2: Luke to perhaps make Han Solo jealous, which is one
Speaker 2: of cinema's most flaccid kisses. Also fully we don't know
Speaker 2: in this movie, but fully ancestual. Also yeah, she kisses
Speaker 2: her brother, but she doesn't know that they're brother and
Speaker 2: sister yet, so it's actually kind of cool and fun
Speaker 2: and flirty, I remember, right. Okay, So one of Darth
Speaker 2: Vader's probe droids shows up on the planet Hof, meaning
Speaker 2: the Empire knows that the rebel base is there, so
Speaker 2: the rebels start evacuating, but the Empire launches an attack.
Speaker 2: There's a big fight scene with Luke and the other
Speaker 2: rebel pilots battling the Empire and they're at ats, which
Speaker 2: is also not they are not named in this movie.
Speaker 2: I don't know how anyone figured out what they're called,
Speaker 2: but they're those like giant four legged things. I okay,
Speaker 2: this is the way that I think about it, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: but because I have two mini pets. But okay, they're
Speaker 2: called what I think it's pronounced at ats or maybe
Speaker 2: they're called atat's, but it stands for like all to
Speaker 2: rain something something.
Speaker 3: So to me, they look like and always have looked
Speaker 3: like if my cocker spaniel, Sunny, fans will know if
Speaker 3: he got this, if he got the surgery that Petropascala
Speaker 3: gets in materialists.
Speaker 2: That's what to extend his legs. I was like, that's
Speaker 2: what it would look like if Sonny got the surgery,
Speaker 2: you would look like there's I think they're so funny.
Speaker 2: I don't see them refer to comedically enough. They're too big.
Speaker 2: They're just too big. They're they're so legsy, tall and skinny,
Speaker 2: and you're just like the design flaws are abound, truly
Speaker 2: to the like, it's so easy for the rebel pilots
Speaker 2: to destroy them. They're they're called all terrain Armored Transports.
Speaker 2: I've got notes. But also like it's so funny.
Speaker 3: I mean I'm sure that this happens in actual terrifying
Speaker 3: you know, military industrial complex machines where you're just where
Speaker 3: it's just so unbelievably monstrously efficient.
Speaker 2: I mean, one of my favorite things to watch is
Speaker 2: videos of like AI robots that there's like a presentation
Speaker 2: of them. Someone's like unveiling this super high tech AI
Speaker 2: robot or whatever kind of robot thing, and then it
Speaker 2: immediately trips and falls and like breaks apart. Yes, it
Speaker 2: is so. It hits so hard seeing a Boston Robotics thing.
Speaker 2: Eat shit, it feels so good to see. It's awesome.
Speaker 2: My favorite one is it like goes well, I didn't
Speaker 2: even if it goes viral. I also feel old saying
Speaker 2: goes viral.
Speaker 3: Now, I don't know if people say that anymore, but
Speaker 3: there's that one of I think it's a Tesla robot
Speaker 3: trying to like serve a drink and then it.
Speaker 2: Just like passes out. It's it's it's real fun. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I love those videos. Yeah, okay, fuck them, fuck fuck them. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The problem with Star Wars is while it is cool conceptually,
Speaker 2: uh you know, robots aren't gonna like help or anything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but well it's always the Empire that uses them. That's true.
Speaker 2: I mean, well droids, I guess robots. Droids are actually robots,
Speaker 2: and yeah they are. Look, it's complicated, it's complicated, it
Speaker 2: is it is. Yeah. But anyway, this battle is happening,
Speaker 2: the Rebellion is losing, and then Darth Vader shows up
Speaker 2: at the rebel base just as Han Leia, Chewy and
Speaker 2: c Threepo managed to escape in the Millennium Falcon. But
Speaker 2: Star destroyers and other Imperial ships are chasing and shooting
Speaker 2: at the Millennium Falcon, which is damaged and can't get
Speaker 2: to light speed, so they end up in this asteroid
Speaker 2: field that they have to maneuver through. They enter a
Speaker 2: cavern on one of the bigger asteroids to hide while
Speaker 2: Han and Chewey repair the ship. But wait, there's something
Speaker 2: weird about this asteroid or this cave, but they don't
Speaker 2: know what's going on yet. Meanwhile, Luke and R two
Speaker 2: D two head to the Dago bus system. They kind
Speaker 2: of crash land into this like spooky bog and they're
Speaker 2: trying to figure out where they are where This Yoda
Speaker 2: character is some I was I was gonna say, kind
Speaker 2: of a bit of a swamp like a like a
Speaker 2: like kind of somewhere where like a like Shrek lives
Speaker 2: kind of like somebody can start playing it anytime, kind
Speaker 2: of that wow, that kind of vibe. And you know
Speaker 2: this is a swamp where a green outcast lives. That
Speaker 2: I And it's interesting and there's someone should write their
Speaker 2: thesis paper on why green house casts, you know, sort
Speaker 2: of trend towards these settings. I have Okay, I have
Speaker 2: a letter box list that I've been working on. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's called something like movies where a character who is
Speaker 2: green has been cast out by society and lives alone somewhere. Grinch,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Grinch, Shrek, Wicked, Wicked.
Speaker 3: Wow, for that's that's official. Yeah, and Yoda that wow.
Speaker 3: What's going on? What's going on here? And in a way,
Speaker 3: because there's like the little I've.
Speaker 2: Been well whatever it's Minion season, Kitla and I well,
Speaker 2: you don't have to tell me twice. Hello, we're gonna
Speaker 2: I cannot wait for the new Minions movie. But that's
Speaker 2: a separate like little yellow cartoon characters are another whole
Speaker 2: thing too, Because you've got SpongeBob, you've got Minions, you've
Speaker 2: got like the list goes on and on. You're just like,
Speaker 2: what is it? What does it mean? Someone give me answers?
Speaker 2: Let's continue to explore this, shall we? Yes? But anyway,
Speaker 2: Yoda is Shrek, but they don't know that yet. Luke
Speaker 2: and are two D two and come upon Unlike Shrek Yoda.
Speaker 2: To be fair, Yoda is like open to others being
Speaker 2: at his swamp, but it really depends. He's kind of
Speaker 2: like if Shrek and Donkey were one character. Yes, yeah, wow,
Speaker 2: huge for Yoda. What a compliment? Yeah, right right, because
Speaker 2: like Donkey, Yoda is annoying. He's really annoying and always
Speaker 2: like but also you know, wants company so badly. It's true.
Speaker 2: So Luke is looking for Yoda, but he doesn't know
Speaker 2: what Yoda looks like or who he is, and he
Speaker 2: comes upon this weird green, little muppety guy. Boy is it?
Speaker 2: I'm up? And it's literally Frank miss Piggy. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: and he's super annoying. So Luke is like, what the fuck, dude,
Speaker 2: leave me alone. I'm trying to find Yoda, and this
Speaker 2: little guy is like, I am Yoda and you are
Speaker 2: too impatient, too angry, and too old to be a Jedi.
Speaker 2: You crusty bitch. So here's maybe a controversial thought. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it comes with many layers and does tie into
Speaker 2: our previous prequels research Yoda, Like, what a wild swing
Speaker 2: the character Yoda is conceptually versus how hugely like society
Speaker 2: embraced Yoda as a character. I think with this in mind,
Speaker 2: things make a little bit more sense into like the
Speaker 2: jar Jar of it all. Now I look at how
Speaker 2: weird and annoying Yoda is, an empire strikes back and
Speaker 2: sort of understand why George Lucas, who is like not
Speaker 2: known for really thinking things, thinking how things might be
Speaker 2: perceived through sure might have thought that jar Jar was
Speaker 2: really going to work. We talk about in the prequel
Speaker 2: all of the reasons that that may not be the case,
Speaker 2: but there's precedent for it. Yeah. I feel like people
Speaker 2: talk about jar Jar like an annoying character coming out
Speaker 2: of nowhere in Star Wars is a completely out of
Speaker 2: nowhere thing, but it's like there is precedent and there's
Speaker 2: precedent of it working. Yeah, but yeah, shrug, who knows. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Yoda is reluctant to teach Luke, but Luke is like, no,
Speaker 2: teach me, please teach me, Daddy, teach me daddy. Luke
Speaker 2: always wants a daddy. That's kind of his whole He's
Speaker 2: obsessed with having a daddy. I mean, to be fair,
Speaker 2: they keep dying true, So he thinks back on the
Speaker 2: Millennium Falcon, they're working on the ship. They're still trying
Speaker 2: to repair it. Han Solo continues to be an ass,
Speaker 2: but Lea quote unquote likes it, and they kiss on
Speaker 2: the lips and again we'll talk about it. But then
Speaker 2: they go outside because some creatures are lurking around and
Speaker 2: there's again something really weird about this cave, except it's
Speaker 2: not a cave. It's a giant space worm that they
Speaker 2: have to fly out of slash narrowly escape from. Fun.
Speaker 2: It's fun. This is a great part. Yeah, I love worm.
Speaker 2: So then we see Darth Vader having a little chat
Speaker 2: with the Emperor about Luke Skywalker, how the Force is
Speaker 2: strong with him, and how if they can turn him
Speaker 2: to the dark side he could become a powerful ally
Speaker 2: and Darth Vader says he will join us or die.
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that the Empire
Speaker 2: strikes Back has going for it is like, not too
Speaker 2: heavy on the Emperor. You really have to have a
Speaker 2: careful balance of Emperor in your Star Wars movie. I
Speaker 2: feel too much Emperor is annoying and or boring. A
Speaker 2: little bit of Empire is fun. I agree, And I
Speaker 2: think there is too much of the Emperor in Return
Speaker 2: of the Jedi and also in the prequels and sequels,
Speaker 2: except except in that amazing fight with Samuel L. Jackson.
Speaker 2: That's the right amount. Oh my gosh. Yes, there's fun
Speaker 2: Emperor and there's not fun Emperor. I like that he's
Speaker 2: there for a scene and then we just move on.
Speaker 2: We move on. Yeah, Okay. So we're talking about the
Speaker 2: dark Side and they're trying to get Luke to come
Speaker 2: over to it. Back on Digoba, Yoda has agreed to
Speaker 2: start training Luke, and so they're doing that. Luke asks
Speaker 2: about the dark Side. Then he goes into this cave
Speaker 2: where he faces his fears that he will be tempted
Speaker 2: by the dark Side and become someone like Darth Vader.
Speaker 2: So now we have this like looming thing over Luke,
Speaker 2: and it's also freshman year philosophy seminar. What's going on
Speaker 2: in this cave. It's like, it's it's good shit, it's fun. Yeah, Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: Darth Vader hires a bunch of bounty hunters, including Boba Fett,
Speaker 2: to find the Millennium Falcon, and apparently a lot of
Speaker 2: people were like, hubba, hubba, who's that? And I'm just like,
Speaker 2: he looks like a fucking any anyone else in Star Wars.
Speaker 2: I don't get it. There is certain like sci fi
Speaker 2: fan braid that I just like, I need it really
Speaker 2: spoon fed to be because I don't understand. I don't
Speaker 2: necessarily get this one either. I understand that he's like cool,
Speaker 2: I guess, and his costume's cool, But why people glombed
Speaker 2: onto him so much? I don't know. I don't quite
Speaker 2: know if you did, or know why sound off. I'm
Speaker 2: genuinely curious why this character of all characters for sure. Okay,
Speaker 2: So Luke keeps working on his Jedi training, which is
Speaker 2: mostly just like floating rocks around. He does try to
Speaker 2: Jedi lift his ship out of the swamp. Luke literally
Speaker 2: kind of like has a little grad school side quest
Speaker 2: like yeah, he's like he's doing a workshop. Yeah, like
Speaker 2: many like many grad school courses. You're like, so, what
Speaker 2: is the function of this? I'm sure it'll become clear.
Speaker 2: Eventually and it does, Yes, it does anyway. Luke he
Speaker 2: he can't lift something as heavy as a spaceship out
Speaker 2: of a swamp, but Yoda does it with relative ease,
Speaker 2: and Luke is like, oh shit, I'm a free in
Speaker 2: eighty eight. I still have so much to learn, mupp
Speaker 2: It's awesome. Yeah, and then Luke, with his force powers,
Speaker 2: sees a vision of the future which is Han and
Speaker 2: Leah in danger. Yeah. So Luke wants to go help them,
Speaker 2: but Yoda and obi Wan's force ghost try to discourage him,
Speaker 2: saying it's a trap and he needs to finish his
Speaker 2: training and he's being tempted by the dark side. Blah
Speaker 2: blah blah. They're like, don't quit grad school and he's like,
Speaker 2: don't worry, I'm just gonna take a sabbatical. Yeah. He's like,
Speaker 2: it's just one session. I'll be back. I'll finish my degree.
Speaker 2: I swear, I swear. So Luke leaves and obi Wan
Speaker 2: says to Yoda he's like, ugh, that boy is our
Speaker 2: last hope. And then Yoda is like, no, there's another
Speaker 2: and we're like, oh my gosh, who is it. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: Leah and Han and Chewy and C three po arrive
Speaker 2: in Cloud City, where we meet Landol Kelrisian. He is
Speaker 2: an old pal of Hans and also a scoundrel like Han,
Speaker 2: so not someone they can really trust, and there's definitely
Speaker 2: something suspicious going on. It turns out that Lando sold
Speaker 2: them out to Darth Vader, so our friends are imprisoned
Speaker 2: and tortured. C three Po is torn to pieces, Hans
Speaker 2: Solo is frozen in carbonite and turned over to Boba Fett,
Speaker 2: and this is where we have the famous scene of
Speaker 2: Leah saying I love you and Hans says I know,
Speaker 2: and we're rolling our eyes and they're all right. A
Speaker 2: lot of people were irreparably harmed by that line of dialogue,
Speaker 2: including me as a child, So I'm not above that
Speaker 2: the line that no, but no, it's not being above,
Speaker 2: it's just it's it's the line that inspired a million
Speaker 2: emotionally volatile relationships. Yes, sad but true. Yeah. And then
Speaker 2: Luke shows up to Cloud City and there's a big
Speaker 2: confrontation between him and Darth Vader. They're lightsaber battling. Vader
Speaker 2: is like, join me on the dark side. It's really
Speaker 2: cool over here. Meanwhile, Lando double crosses Darth Vader to
Speaker 2: then help his friends. After all, so Lando lea Chewy
Speaker 2: c three po they're running around. They're trying to save Han,
Speaker 2: but they're too late, and then they have to make
Speaker 2: an escape from Cloud City because it's being taken over
Speaker 2: by stormtroopers and everything. We cut back to the lightsaber battle.
Speaker 2: Darth Vader chops off Luke's hand and then reveals to Luke,
Speaker 2: I am your father, and we're like narratives a movie
Speaker 2: about fathers and sons. Yeah, and then it becomes nine
Speaker 2: movies about fathers and sons, try as it may to
Speaker 2: occasionally become other things. That is where we keep going.
Speaker 2: It is ultimately because a movie about fathers and sons. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: I mean, the sequels, right, are ultimately kind of more
Speaker 2: about Adam Driver and Hans Solo than they are about
Speaker 2: Ray and the people. They can't decide if they're hurt, Like,
Speaker 2: they can't decide who Ray's parents are, so it's not
Speaker 2: about her and her parents. They're like the Emperor whatever
Speaker 2: I mean. And I'm not the first and only person
Speaker 2: to make this observation, but the sequel trilogy really suffers
Speaker 2: from two men having a narrative dick measuring contest with
Speaker 2: each other because it's Ryan Johnson and JJ Abrams being like, no,
Speaker 2: it's my thing. No, it's my thing, which is like,
Speaker 2: you know, annoying and ridiculou. But it's also like you
Speaker 2: would think that there would be a system in place
Speaker 2: that would like decide who was going to do what
Speaker 2: in advance. It is still so shocking to me. And
Speaker 2: I don't care about the continuity of Star Wars, so
Speaker 2: I'm not like super worried about it, but it is
Speaker 2: shocking to me every time I hear how those things
Speaker 2: played out, where it was like, see, your plan was
Speaker 2: to spend like a billion dollars of these movies and
Speaker 2: you didn't want to decide in advance who was going
Speaker 2: to do what and when and if they agreed with
Speaker 2: each other about a single thing like that is kind
Speaker 2: of like it's almost awesome, how how like ridiculous it is.
Speaker 2: I guess it's you could see it as encouraging the
Speaker 2: huge corporation of Disney, who they let Ryan Johnson do
Speaker 2: his thing. But right, they're giving creative control to the filmmakers,
Speaker 2: but at what cost? Right, But then they can't decide
Speaker 2: if they like regret doing that or not. I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's been so much discussion over the sequels, but what.
Speaker 3: Does seem interesting to me after just like rewatching this
Speaker 3: and watching watching the prequels and you know, not having
Speaker 3: quite as firm a grip on the sequels, But it's
Speaker 3: like it is sort of different versions of the same
Speaker 3: cultural biases that become an issue every single time with
Speaker 3: this franchise. They never true, they're always promising they're about
Speaker 3: to course correct, and they just kind of it seems
Speaker 3: like outside of like ancillary series like and or, but
Speaker 3: out of like non feature entries to the franchise, they
Speaker 3: never really quite managed to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: So I.
Speaker 2: Okay, So Darth Vader has just told Luke that he
Speaker 2: is Luke's father, and Luke is like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: what Kenobi told me that you murdered my father?
Speaker 1: There?
Speaker 2: That bitch is a liar. Yep, it's funny. In Return
Speaker 2: of the Jedi, Obi Wan's Force ghost appears again and
Speaker 2: Luke confronts him about lying to him, and Obi Wan's
Speaker 2: Obi Wan's explanation is like, well, if you just like
Speaker 2: really interpret it very weirdly, actually what I told you
Speaker 2: was true, so it was just shut up I'm just
Speaker 2: saying stuff whatever. Yeah, Okay, So Vader wants Luke to
Speaker 2: join him so that they can rule the galaxy as
Speaker 2: father and son, and Luke is like pass and he
Speaker 2: like drops into the abyss and ends up like dangling
Speaker 2: from an antenna or something in Cloud City and he's like, uh,
Speaker 2: somebody help me, lay up. Help and Leah, who is
Speaker 2: flying away with the others and Millennium Falcon, here's Luke's
Speaker 2: call because maybe the Force is strong with her also.
Speaker 2: So they turn around and rescue Luke and they're trying
Speaker 2: to get away, but the Falcon's hyper drive is still
Speaker 2: fucked up, so they can't get to light speed, and
Speaker 2: Luke is having a Force conversation with Vader about joining
Speaker 2: the dark Side. He's literally having a job interview on
Speaker 2: like over the Zoom Force Zoom. Yeah exactly. Then R
Speaker 2: two D two fixes the hyper drive and they escape
Speaker 2: and then make arrangements to go rescue Han Solo from
Speaker 2: Job of the Hut on Tatooine, which will happen in
Speaker 2: the next movie. And that's the movie. So let's take
Speaker 2: a quick break and we'll be right back. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: we're back. Well, Caitlin, I mean birthday privileges. Where would
Speaker 2: you like to begin this discussion? Oh my gosh, well,
Speaker 2: I feel like it makes sense to start, as we
Speaker 2: often do, with some context. I did some research on
Speaker 2: Lee Bracket, and if you're wondering, huh, who's that? Well,
Speaker 2: I didn't know. Let us tell you.
Speaker 3: I didn't know before researching for this episode. It was
Speaker 3: a delightful little journey because Luke, sorry, George Lucas is
Speaker 3: simply so sonomyous.
Speaker 2: My god, wait, is that why his name is Luke?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I just did, like a Freudian slip. It's like if
Speaker 2: I named my protagonist Loft, You're like, you know, Loft
Speaker 2: my last name. It's like CBS Luke Skywalker. Well, I
Speaker 2: never connected those dots, but maybe wow, are we the
Speaker 2: first we? With Star Wars? I never believe anyone's the
Speaker 2: first person to make an observation, but what if we were?
Speaker 2: Who knows? Yeah, Anyway, what I was trying to say
Speaker 2: is that George Lucas is so synonymous with Star Wars
Speaker 2: and its conception that people tend to forget who else
Speaker 2: was involved in the making of these movies. So, of course,
Speaker 2: the first movie, episode four was written and directed by
Speaker 2: George Lucas. But Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin
Speaker 2: Kirshner and the screenplay was written by Lawrence Casten and
Speaker 2: drum roll, please a woman. Lee Bracket is her name,
Speaker 2: which would that ever happen again? No?
Speaker 1: You?
Speaker 2: I don't think so? Wow?
Speaker 3: Really good guys, great job guys. And Lee Brackett has
Speaker 3: a kind of fascinating life story. Do you, I mean,
Speaker 3: do you want to take it away? Because she passes
Speaker 3: unfortunately before the movie comes out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so here's the research I did. If you
Speaker 2: have anything extra, please chime in. But Lee Brackett was
Speaker 2: one of the most prominent woman writers during the Golden
Speaker 2: Age of sci fi, so like the forties and fifties,
Speaker 2: I think primarily she was known as the Queen of
Speaker 2: space opera. She wrote a bunch of sci fi novels
Speaker 2: and short stories throughout her career. She also has numerous
Speaker 2: screenwriting credits, including The Big Sleep, The Long Goodbye, and
Speaker 2: Wild Right like crossing genres too totally, and she worked
Speaker 2: on an early draft of Empire Strikes Back. So what
Speaker 2: happened here is that Lucas.
Speaker 3: George Lucas reached out to her right, Yeah, yes, he
Speaker 3: approached her because it was like, George Lucas was a
Speaker 3: big enough sci fi fan that I'm sure that he
Speaker 3: was aware.
Speaker 2: Of her totally. Yeah, And what I read was something
Speaker 2: to the effect of he he didn't like love building
Speaker 2: out the world of Star Wars and like figuring out
Speaker 2: all the lore. So he's like, let me find a
Speaker 2: sci fi writer who's been doing this for decades who
Speaker 2: loves and bring her in. Yeah. Yeah, So he approaches
Speaker 2: Lee Bracket and in late nineteen seventy seven they come
Speaker 2: together and basically like put the pieces of this story
Speaker 2: together for the sequel to Star Wars. George Lucas had
Speaker 2: some core ideas in mind, but he wanted Lee Brackett
Speaker 2: to kind of form them together into a cohesive story.
Speaker 2: So she went off. She wrote a draft and turned
Speaker 2: it into George Lucas. However, she was sick with cancer
Speaker 2: and by the time he like kind of came back
Speaker 2: to her with notes on her draft, she was hospitalized
Speaker 2: and she died a few weeks later, very young, tissues
Speaker 2: in her sixties. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was I mean speaking of just like how
Speaker 3: especially when you get past a certain point in history.
Speaker 3: But this is nineteen eighty It's pretty ridiculous how infrequently
Speaker 3: women writers are acknowledged or remembered, because I mean, and
Speaker 3: this is not a dig at Lawrence Kasten, whose work
Speaker 3: I really love, but like everyone knows who Lawrence Casten is.
Speaker 2: And part of this is that apparently there's this kind
Speaker 2: of phenomenon where people generally acted like nothing from Lee
Speaker 2: Bracket's draft appeared in the fire film, and so people
Speaker 2: just kind of weren't really talking about her and her
Speaker 2: contributions to the story, which is especially that makes me
Speaker 2: frustrated on the George Lucas side of things, particularly because
Speaker 2: they know she's like not around to advocate for herself. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: So it is just like kind of a full erasure
Speaker 2: for sure. And for many years her draft of the
Speaker 2: screenplay was available to read, but it was only available
Speaker 2: to read at a library in New Mexico and only there, Okay,
Speaker 2: so it was hard to get your hands on, yeah,
Speaker 2: until twenty sixteen when it was published, and so I
Speaker 2: would be interested in reading it. I have not read
Speaker 2: that draft of the script, but for those who have
Speaker 2: read it, the consensus seems to be that many of
Speaker 2: the basic story beats between Lee Bracket's draft and the
Speaker 2: final film are more or less the same. There are
Speaker 2: a few differences, such as the love triangle between Luke, Leah,
Speaker 2: and Hahn is far more prominent in her draft. In
Speaker 2: her draft, Luke has a secret sister named Nellith.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: I remember learning this in my Women of Star Wars
Speaker 2: research last year. Nelleth the character who would never be
Speaker 2: nice and try right. Oh, you wanted to write another
Speaker 2: woman in the movie. Well, too bad. Well you're gonna
Speaker 2: have to wait another twenty years. And don't worry, we're
Speaker 2: gonna write her out immediately. Yeah, we won't give her parents.
Speaker 2: We'll never figure out who her parents are. Another difference
Speaker 2: was in Lee Brackett's draft, Luke's father and Darth Vader
Speaker 2: are separate characters, and then there's some other kind of
Speaker 2: minor differences here and there. I mean, yeah, that's a
Speaker 2: to be fair, no no offense to our friend Lee.
Speaker 2: That's a pretty big chain. If that's a Lawrence Casten idea,
Speaker 2: that's Darth Vader being the father kind of crucial fair, yes,
Speaker 2: for sure. Yeah, But I think people were sort of
Speaker 2: acting like her entire draft was scrapped, right, and they
Speaker 2: basically started from scratch. But like Lawrence Casten was building
Speaker 2: on her work precisely, and so and I'm paraphrasing a
Speaker 2: piece from the Den of Geek website, But in her
Speaker 2: draft there is a battle on hof, the flying through
Speaker 2: the asteroid field sequence is there, as is the city
Speaker 2: in the clouds, various unexpected betrayals, the climactic duel between
Speaker 2: Luke and Darth Vader. So like so much of her
Speaker 2: that's massive. Yeah, so was she?
Speaker 3: I mean, and I did not watch the credits when
Speaker 3: I was doing my rewatch is she credited I name
Speaker 3: in the original movie or is it just Laurence.
Speaker 2: Cast In she is credited? She is. Okay, that's good
Speaker 2: because I think that there's like, in general, a like
Speaker 2: still to this day, cultural misunderstanding of like how writing
Speaker 2: for TV and film works where it's well, I feel
Speaker 2: like there's a cultural misunderstanding because it is unclear in
Speaker 2: many cases, and you've talked about this on the show before,
Speaker 2: where like your name will be on an episode that
Speaker 2: you didn't actually write that version of the script, or
Speaker 2: you did write the script, and then you are not
Speaker 2: credited because xyz reason.
Speaker 3: So there's like all these it's like the crediting system
Speaker 3: is very weird because the crediting to some extent, is
Speaker 3: just done to justify how money.
Speaker 2: Is distributed between writers.
Speaker 3: Which is very confusing as well, Like the WGA crediting
Speaker 3: conventions are really confusing. But like even all that aside,
Speaker 3: like like you're saying, the fact that one writer is
Speaker 3: credited disproportionately kind of under cuts the whole point of
Speaker 3: like how it works, which is like that they're even
Speaker 3: if they're not working together at the exact same time,
Speaker 3: which they weren't, they're still collaborating, and that it ends
Speaker 3: up being kind of this genderless dick measuring contest that
Speaker 3: mysteriously writers who are not CIS men tend.
Speaker 2: To lose almost always, as evidenced by what we both said,
Speaker 2: which is that we were not aware that a woman
Speaker 2: named Lee Brackett wrote a draft of this movie. I've
Speaker 2: been watching this movie for over three decades. Oh was
Speaker 2: this your first time hearing it for? I didn't know
Speaker 2: if it was Yeah, Like I wow, Yeah, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I mean that, and that it took until twenty sixteen
Speaker 2: for you know, that to become even knowledge that we
Speaker 2: could have, because it's like truly without and this is
Speaker 2: like where fan communities are can be amazing. It's like
Speaker 2: without people willing to go to the library in New Mexico,
Speaker 2: it's like her contributions could have been downplayed for decades
Speaker 2: to come. Yeah. Yeah, So her contributions to the film
Speaker 2: are undeniable, but her work is often completely overlooked because
Speaker 2: people are just like, yeah, George Lucas and Lawrence Kasden, duh.
Speaker 2: And it is at that point I think, particularly on
Speaker 2: George Lucas, to emphasize her contributions, and I think that
Speaker 2: that failure to do so is something that we're allowed
Speaker 2: to be pissed off at. Sure. Yeah, so shout out
Speaker 2: to Lee Brackett rip our friend Lee Brackett. Yes, So
Speaker 2: with that in mind, let's talk about the movie. Although
Speaker 2: there's a little bit more of I think behind the
Speaker 2: scenes stuff regarding Leah slash Carrie Fisher that will kind
Speaker 2: of dovetail into perhaps a discussion about Princess Leiah.
Speaker 3: Yes, maybe I should have said that during my Star Wars.
Speaker 3: My biggest connection to Star Wars is I love Carrie Fisher, Yes, more.
Speaker 2: So than anything else. Yeah. No, she was so awesome,
Speaker 2: gifted writer rip to her as well, just amazing. God,
Speaker 2: I want to live in a world where Carrie Fisher
Speaker 2: was allowed a crack at any Star Wars script. I know,
Speaker 2: like a proper crack at it, right, because listeners may
Speaker 2: or may not know that Carrie Fisher was a highly
Speaker 2: sought after script doctor for a while and she would
Speaker 2: be hired to fix or polish or punch up scripts.
Speaker 2: But that was after she was in the original Star
Speaker 2: Wars trilogy, right, Okay, So Carrie Fisher like was pretty
Speaker 2: open about like saying that she was having a hard
Speaker 2: time connecting to her character Leah. Yeah, she found her
Speaker 2: to be pretty one dimensional. She joked that basically the
Speaker 2: only thing she knew about Leya was that she likes
Speaker 2: to wear white clothes. You're like, hey, so that's actually
Speaker 2: not a caaracs.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 2: And we know from the diaries that Carrie Fisher kept
Speaker 2: at the time of filming these movies that she was
Speaker 2: envious of Harrison Ford because he was allowed to rewrite
Speaker 2: dialogue for Han solo.
Speaker 3: Often on the fly, so that he would never have
Speaker 3: to actually learn how to act. And that's my I'm
Speaker 3: not a Harrison Ford fan.
Speaker 2: I think he's obviously like undeniably he's got riz all
Speaker 2: that stuff. But it's like, well, yeah, because he can't
Speaker 2: do anything else, so of course he's gonna need the dialogue.
Speaker 2: She doesn't have range. No, that is many movie stars don't.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah. So a prime example of this is
Speaker 2: during the scene where Leah says I love you and
Speaker 2: Harrison Ford improvised the I know response. So he was
Speaker 2: doing that from time to time on set, just kind
Speaker 2: of rewriting his lines and doing whatever he felt like. However,
Speaker 2: director Irvin Kirshner would not allow Carrie Fisher to do
Speaker 2: something similar. But what she did do was just kind
Speaker 2: of make a bunch of notes for herself for the
Speaker 2: laya character in an attempt to kind of provide some
Speaker 2: extra characterization in context that this script doesn't script. This
Speaker 2: was discovered when her copy of Empire Strikes Back was
Speaker 2: like put up for auctions. So I believe after her death, yes,
Speaker 2: I saw this as well, and a lot of her
Speaker 2: note for herself was something along the lines of man
Speaker 2: are so disappointing, and so that is something that it is.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, it's so cool watching actors. It's
Speaker 3: just like every time you see and this isn't I mean,
Speaker 3: this movie is a great movie. But every time you
Speaker 3: see an amazing performance in a movie that you're like,
Speaker 3: how the hell did you manage to do a great
Speaker 3: performance in this like otherwise kind of boring movie, it's
Speaker 3: because of stuff like that. It's so cool that, like
Speaker 3: she had.
Speaker 2: To create a character where a character didn't exist because
Speaker 2: she cared. Yeah, it's awesome, dude, I love it. I
Speaker 2: know if only any of the actors did that in
Speaker 2: the prequel trilogy. Well, let's not blame the actors in
Speaker 2: the prequel trilogy. We know who who the problem was. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: but like I think Iwan McGregor in the prequel trilogy,
Speaker 2: it's a great example of someone giving a like an
Speaker 2: amazing performance in like pretty boring movies. I agree. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was thinking of Samuel L. Jackson, who is one
Speaker 2: of the most prolific actors of our time, and he
Speaker 2: gives the flattest, dullest performance imaginable. But I'm not blaming
Speaker 2: that on him because iconic director George Lucas sucks directing
Speaker 2: and doesn't like people were actors or apparently you just
Speaker 2: told me writing so so. So you're an editor, man,
Speaker 2: He's an editor, he's a special effects guy, he's a
Speaker 2: he's a special effects whiz. Yeah, and that's why he
Speaker 2: made the Star Wars movies. Yeah, which is all good,
Speaker 2: but it is futty to learn.
Speaker 4: Like.
Speaker 2: Oh, and he also hated writing.
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, we hated actors and writing, directing, directing.
Speaker 2: Cool. Yeah. Anyway, So Carrie Fisher, through her performance, helps
Speaker 2: to give Princess Leah more characterization than she otherwise had.
Speaker 2: And I think it's a huge reason why I always
Speaker 2: connected to the Princess Leah character. I always admired her.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the reasons I like this
Speaker 2: trilogy so much. She's doing so much with so little.
Speaker 2: She's amazing. Yes, however, she still is the only woman
Speaker 2: in the galaxy. Yeah, it's I mean, and I have
Speaker 2: to be willing to criticize my faves too. It's kind
Speaker 2: of like Minions vibes. It's it's every setting in the
Speaker 2: original Star Wars trilogy has minions rules, has full on
Speaker 2: smurf rules. Yes, yeah, there's only one woman and we're
Speaker 2: not allowed to ask where the others went. It's still
Speaker 2: just her. But I mean in that there's well, it's
Speaker 2: it's interesting because I'm curious what you think. I think
Speaker 2: that Leah. I also feel this way about Episode four,
Speaker 2: but I think more so about this movie. She is
Speaker 2: a very active character. She is a character with a
Speaker 2: lot of power and a lot of agency, and while
Speaker 2: she is not always the person making the most active
Speaker 2: decision in from scene to scene, she is always a
Speaker 2: part of the action. It's something I really appreciate about her.
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes, especially kind of older Star Wars fans.
Speaker 3: Will use that very true fact as a way to
Speaker 3: dismiss some of the more stereotypical aspects of Leah. To
Speaker 3: be like, I mean, I encountered this today and I
Speaker 3: was like, okay, where they're like it doesn't matter if
Speaker 3: she's the only woman, because she well did in that scene.
Speaker 2: You know, like you're just like, okay, we've got to
Speaker 2: be able to hold a couple things at once here.
Speaker 2: Because I love that she welded. We celebrate that she welded.
Speaker 2: What was she doing we don't know, and no one
Speaker 2: could tell us, but like, yeah, she's always actively involved.
Speaker 2: But to be fair, when like Han and Cheweye are
Speaker 2: welding this ship, I also don't have any fucking clue
Speaker 2: what they're doing. Well, that's that's what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's like she's doing she's doing space sides. I just
Speaker 3: think it's funny that, like the sort of tokenism around
Speaker 3: gender that exists in this trilogy. I think for big fans,
Speaker 3: they're sometimes like, you can't say it's not feminist, she welded.
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, but has she met another woman before?
Speaker 2: Has she made the questions like she's a part of
Speaker 2: a love triangle, because really sloppy romantic interests, the sloppiest
Speaker 2: love triangle's ever written. Yeah, but yeah, Like I rewatched
Speaker 2: episode four as well, just to see if there were
Speaker 2: any significant differences between how she's framed in the first
Speaker 2: movie versus this sequel, and I think the main difference
Speaker 2: is that in episode four she I wouldn't even say
Speaker 2: primarily but she is like the princess who has to
Speaker 2: be rescued. Yeah, and they kind of drop the more
Speaker 2: princessy elements of her in this I thought, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I agree, No, I totally agree. And even though even
Speaker 2: though she has to be rescued, I would almost argue
Speaker 2: that in that movie, she isn't necessarily damseled the way
Speaker 2: other damsels in distress will be treated, because she's taken
Speaker 2: as a political prisoner rather than like a woman love
Speaker 2: interest being captured to raise the stakes for the male protagonist.
Speaker 2: And she's taken as a political prisoner because she's suspected
Speaker 2: of rebel activity, which she was doing because she was
Speaker 2: putting the plans to the deathk Star into R two
Speaker 2: D two. Well, unlike most other women who become damsels
Speaker 2: in a movie, she was actually doing something to impact
Speaker 2: the direction of the plot. And then as soon as
Speaker 2: she's released from captivity, she jumps right back into the action,
Speaker 2: which also we tend not to see in a typical
Speaker 2: damsel situation. So I think from the jump she has
Speaker 2: been written as a character who is a very significant
Speaker 2: part of the narrative, the action, the beats that move
Speaker 2: this story forward.
Speaker 3: And it's also that she's always been a like revolutionary general,
Speaker 3: which also remains to be true. I mean, I think
Speaker 3: throughout the rest of her time in the series, like
Speaker 3: in the sequels as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you know, we could talk about the
Speaker 2: girl Boss optics of becoming a military general, sure, but
Speaker 2: you know, I think for a military for the resistance,
Speaker 2: for the revolution, Yeah exactly. Yeah, So I just I
Speaker 2: don't know, I appreciated that you know, two things are
Speaker 2: true here, and I think also to build on because
Speaker 2: we covered episode four, we should recover it because we
Speaker 2: covered it. One of the I remember I was late
Speaker 2: because I was working at Playboy, and it was ten
Speaker 2: years ago when we first did that episode. It's our
Speaker 2: first episode that appears in our feed. Yeah, so for now,
Speaker 2: for now, but yeah, I mean it's I feel like she,
Speaker 2: you know, I love that she's a revolutionary. I love
Speaker 2: that she you know.
Speaker 3: I think maybe ten years ago it was like, well,
Speaker 3: we don't want any love stories, and now I think,
Speaker 3: you know, the show has grown to be like, no,
Speaker 3: it's not that, it's that it really depends on what
Speaker 3: the love story is.
Speaker 2: And like, m hm, so let's talk about that. Yes,
Speaker 2: let's talk about it. Okay. So Han is in love
Speaker 2: with Leah, but he cannot be vulnerable enough to directly
Speaker 2: communicate to her. Yeah, presumably because he's afraid of rejection.
Speaker 2: So in episode four, Han has a conversation with Luke
Speaker 2: about how like, oh, would a princess ever get with
Speaker 2: a scrappy guy like me? So he's afraid of a
Speaker 2: class based rejections. But instead of you know, being vulnerable
Speaker 2: and communicative about his feelings, he nags her, he projects
Speaker 2: onto her. There are all these scenes toward the beginning
Speaker 2: where he's like, you want me to stay because of
Speaker 2: the way you feel about me. Yeah, he's handsome and awesome.
Speaker 3: It's the BISHEMI test vibe of just like he and
Speaker 3: and what's interesting. And I don't think we could have
Speaker 3: talked about this when we talked about A New Hope,
Speaker 3: because I don't think it was out yet.
Speaker 2: We now know. We just talked about this on Zeitgeist
Speaker 2: the other day that Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford had
Speaker 2: an affair with a significant age gap. She was a
Speaker 2: teenager and he was in his early thirties on the
Speaker 2: set of A New Hope. Not this movie, but that again,
Speaker 2: just like speaking to how aggressively Han Solo mirrored who
Speaker 2: Harrison Ford was a lot of the issues Leah is
Speaker 2: having with Han in this movie are issues that Carrie
Speaker 2: Fisher was having in like trying to have this relationship
Speaker 2: with Harrison Ford, of.
Speaker 4: Like being emotionally inaccessible, of being dismissive, of you know,
Speaker 4: doing all these things that I think men are socialized
Speaker 4: to be permitted to do and women are socialized to tolerate.
Speaker 2: For sure, So we have Han Solo not treating Lea
Speaker 2: well because of his insecurities of being rejected by someone
Speaker 2: he loves. Now with life, it's telegraphed to us that
Speaker 2: she has feelings for him as well, but also doesn't
Speaker 2: want to admit it, perhaps also for a class based reason,
Speaker 2: like a social status thing where she might think he's
Speaker 2: beneath her or something, or maybe because he's kind of
Speaker 2: a being a dick.
Speaker 3: It's like when you're really attracted to someone who is
Speaker 3: an asshole, and you're like, maybe best to just keep
Speaker 3: this as a crush.
Speaker 2: Yes, And to Leigh's credit, she is always pushing back
Speaker 2: against him when he's being a dick. She's calling him delusional.
Speaker 2: She calls him a stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking
Speaker 2: nerf Herder, an iconic line, but she it is very like,
Speaker 2: we're never meant to fully believe that. And I think
Speaker 2: that the reason we're not supposed to fully believe that
Speaker 2: is because of how you're socially conditioned long before you're
Speaker 2: sitting in the theater, right. And yes, so it's like
Speaker 2: one of those tricky things where I think there was
Speaker 2: like an era of media criticism where it would be
Speaker 2: like Star Wars did this, and it's like, well, no,
Speaker 2: star Wars didn't do this, but star Wars reflected this
Speaker 2: to a very young audience. Yeah. Star Wars didn't invent this,
Speaker 2: but it did perpetuate it. Yeah, and in a way
Speaker 2: that like, I mean, you only need to visit a
Speaker 2: forum or two to understand that some people really took
Speaker 2: this mentality quite seriously. Yes, yeah, okay, So then there's
Speaker 2: the kiss scene. Yeah, this is when Leah is welding,
Speaker 2: aka doing the most feminist thing ever women be welding.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it is. Do you remember when I
Speaker 2: think we talked about.
Speaker 3: This forever ago what Julia Roberts movie is it where
Speaker 3: we were like, oh, the the rom com trope, where
Speaker 3: like we know that she's she's going to get the
Speaker 3: guy the end.
Speaker 2: If she like fixes car at some point. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like the mechanic trope to be like, I'm I'm
Speaker 2: a girl that's more doing more traditionally masculine things. Therefore
Speaker 2: I'm not like other girls. I'm cool. I'm Yes, it
Speaker 2: happens in a lot of movies. Actually, I don't think
Speaker 2: this is when Leah is welding. She's just doing some
Speaker 2: other repair work on the Millennium falcon anyway, not important. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she's fully evolved at every step of the action. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: Han comes in as she's like doing this repair work.
Speaker 2: He starts immediately invading her personal space, trying to either
Speaker 2: like take over what she's doing or help. She shoves
Speaker 2: him off. He starts condescending to her, calling her a
Speaker 2: nickname that she doesn't like. He's touching her hands. Intimately,
Speaker 2: she's telling him to stop that, he keeps inching his
Speaker 2: face closer and closer to hers. He has also backed
Speaker 2: her into a corner so she cannot, like get away.
Speaker 3: It is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario. I mean truly,
Speaker 3: it is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario that exists.
Speaker 3: But like just in terms of being textbook, Murky consent
Speaker 3: the whole premise and relies on it being Harrison Ford
Speaker 3: in a movie.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, Like, yeah, he's charismatic and rugged, so obviously
Speaker 2: anyone's gonna want to kiss him, is the idea. So
Speaker 2: he's he's close to her. They exchange a few more
Speaker 2: words and then he interrupts her with a kiss. Their
Speaker 2: kiss is interrupted when C three po comes in and
Speaker 2: then as Han is talking to him, Lea sneaks away.
Speaker 2: As far as the kiss itself, it's also murky because
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, I wouldn't classify it as a surprise
Speaker 2: kiss because she also goes in for the kiss, but
Speaker 2: only because she is written in such a way that
Speaker 2: she's like relenting to him basically, and the scene feels
Speaker 2: quite coercive. Yes, he has treated her badly up until
Speaker 2: this point and continues to like nag her after this.
Speaker 3: And also I think that it is like a tricky
Speaker 3: like even if we are to believe that the character
Speaker 3: like that, you know, I do think that like obviously
Speaker 3: Carrie Fisher is like giving a performance where it's like, oh,
Speaker 3: she's attracted to Han, but to be clear, which I mean,
Speaker 3: we we know we're fully appreciated the choir here, but
Speaker 3: that like, being attracted to someone does not entitle them
Speaker 3: to do anything to you physically, yes, of course. So
Speaker 3: like again, it's just like it's a lot of murky
Speaker 3: logic that this movie is, like, assuming we're all on
Speaker 3: board with.
Speaker 2: Totally, because you can read it as either like he
Speaker 2: wears her down until which is like also doesn't feel
Speaker 2: like quite it either like there's just this like I
Speaker 2: don't know how to describe exactly what's going on, because
Speaker 2: it's because it could be like, actually she secretly likes
Speaker 2: it when he mistreats her and nags her in many scenes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't know exactly what it is, but it's not good,
Speaker 2: and it's a lot of like again, it's like it's
Speaker 2: a lot of tropes that like it's that this is
Speaker 2: just one of the most famous examples of It reminds
Speaker 2: me of our conversation around like when we redid our
Speaker 2: Twilight episode not too long ago, of the idea of
Speaker 2: like fantasy fulfillment and yeah, but how murky a conversation
Speaker 2: that becomes like where if like you if this scene.
Speaker 3: Affected you in a way that like you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: that's such a hot scene like that that's not an
Speaker 3: irrational reaction based on how people are socialized, you know.
Speaker 2: It's just because like I mean, it's complicated by the
Speaker 2: fact that there is this like there is a trope
Speaker 2: that like, well, women want to be ravaged by a
Speaker 2: masculine either man or beast. That's a pervasive trope throughout literature.
Speaker 2: But then some women do kind of.
Speaker 3: Want that, right, Well, yeah, it's right, it's just like
Speaker 3: presenting it that like whatever, Like not everyone wants that,
Speaker 3: and some people do want that, but this story beat
Speaker 3: tends to prove.
Speaker 2: I mean it's like kind of just like Fopio on
Speaker 2: the cover of a paperback novel. Thing they're doing here.
Speaker 2: I mean that's literally what the like the movie poster
Speaker 2: looks like with the two of them. For sure, he's
Speaker 2: like kind of looming above her. She's like, if I'm
Speaker 2: remembering it correctly, like she's got her head kind of
Speaker 2: thrown back. Yeah, I mean, it evokes a lot of
Speaker 2: romance novel stuff, and so it's hard to know what
Speaker 2: to do with because I think that for me, it's
Speaker 2: like it's mainly how young, like the general audience for
Speaker 2: these movies were. Yeah, in a way that I think
Speaker 2: we've seen in the way that the fandom has sort
Speaker 2: of played out over the decades that there are some
Speaker 2: positive takeaways right where it's like Leah is a very powerful,
Speaker 2: outspoken woman who is always a member of the action,
Speaker 2: who is still subject to these romantic troops exactly. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and like, let me know what you think about this,
Speaker 2: But in various scenes when we're seeing her making strategic
Speaker 2: decisions about what the Rebel Alliance should do. She's giving
Speaker 2: orders to people parentheses men because it's just a bunch
Speaker 2: of men. They respect her authority, they don't question her choices.
Speaker 2: So it almost seems like even though there is a
Speaker 2: dearth of women in the galaxy, or at least in
Speaker 2: the Rebel Alliance and the Empire, there doesn't really seem
Speaker 2: to be like systemic space sexism against her.
Speaker 3: No, which feels very much like borrowed from like Star Trek,
Speaker 3: where you know, we are also to believe that there
Speaker 3: isn't space racism, right, but also that doesn't stop Star
Speaker 3: Wars from being subject to all of the race associated
Speaker 3: tropes that.
Speaker 2: Existed in the US in nineteen eighty so, and we'll
Speaker 2: talk about landolcar Parisian I'm sure though, But yeah, there
Speaker 2: aren't these like systemic, like these systems of oppression and bias. Really,
Speaker 2: it's just like individual men being shitty to lay us,
Speaker 2: such as Han Solos. Well, that's what makes it kind
Speaker 2: of like again like this bizarro cultural artifact where you know,
Speaker 2: we're being told we're in a world where women can
Speaker 2: easily be you know, unquestionably in power and powerful, but
Speaker 2: how can we hold that being true with Leah still
Speaker 2: being treated like a woman might have been treated in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty in the US. Like, you know, it's just again,
Speaker 2: It's like it's not a problem specific to this movie
Speaker 2: or franchise, but you know, you certainly do feel the
Speaker 2: reverberations of this kiss and this relationship dynamic the I
Speaker 2: love you I know, which is like, you know, I
Speaker 2: got to hand it to whichever writer wrote it. It's
Speaker 2: a snappy fucking or I guess Harrison Ford, Harrison Ford
Speaker 2: impacted on set. It's a snappy line of dialogue and
Speaker 2: it like tells you who this character is. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean it. It is obviously like a.
Speaker 3: Very particular melodramatic dynamic that in a movie that I
Speaker 3: think is pushing back on gender archetypes with Lea in
Speaker 3: some ways, it really doesn't romantically or with this love
Speaker 3: triangle that becomes increasingly incoherent as they're changing their mind
Speaker 3: between movies, which I guess is what Star Wars has
Speaker 3: always done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really represents a relationship model that so many
Speaker 2: men thought they should follow, so many women thought they
Speaker 2: had to follow. Like for what a burgeoning romance was
Speaker 2: supposed to look like and again I fell for it.
Speaker 3: It does feel like well wherever, we won't need to
Speaker 3: get into it too much today. But how you know,
Speaker 3: every feminist movement comes with a period of backlash, some
Speaker 3: of which is over, some of which is like a
Speaker 3: little more subtle. And I think that like at every
Speaker 3: step of feminist representation in media, because Lea is too
Speaker 3: many an iconic feminist character. That for many of these characters,
Speaker 3: especially in like bigger projects, it's like they can have
Speaker 3: power to a point or in certain arenas, but in
Speaker 3: other arenas they have to remain submissive and okay with
Speaker 3: blah blah blah blahlah. But then that you know, that
Speaker 3: is a little bit in conflict with the fantasy fulfillment.
Speaker 3: Like it's just it's it's we're not Luke, We're not
Speaker 3: at Jedi grad school, but like, but it is.
Speaker 2: It is really interesting because I think that we're having
Speaker 2: a very different conversation about this now than we would
Speaker 2: have when this show started. It's true, it's true, well,
Speaker 2: growth growth, we love to see it. Well, happy birthday
Speaker 2: to me. And speaking of age, you already mentioned this,
Speaker 2: but the Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher age gap because
Speaker 2: I believe she was was at nineteen and he was
Speaker 2: in his early Yes, she was an adult, but she
Speaker 2: was still quite young. Yeah, not so not legal but
Speaker 2: not good and so yeah, he is pretty significantly older
Speaker 2: than her well and married also oh right, oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 2: I forgot about that for the sake of the relationship
Speaker 2: in this movie. It's a classic case of you know,
Speaker 2: a Hollywood age difference where the woman is far younger
Speaker 2: because society hates older women. And once again, happy fortieth Birthday.
Speaker 3: Which like which luckily Carrie Fisher had no shortage of
Speaker 3: things to say about when she was younger and when
Speaker 3: she was older. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it is
Speaker 3: it is like so unquestioningly like to the point where,
Speaker 3: like I had to, I had to have it pointed
Speaker 3: out to me when I was first watching Star Wars,
Speaker 3: where You're like, yeah, he's visibly so much older than her,
Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, I guess I'm just used
Speaker 3: to seeing that, right, But yes, don't. Do you have
Speaker 3: any other thoughts on Ley and this?
Speaker 2: I mean, the other thoughts I have on her are
Speaker 2: are generally quite complimentary, Like I just I love this
Speaker 2: is my favorite movie for her just a few things,
Speaker 2: such as in this movie she's never damseled, but she
Speaker 2: is instrumental in saving Luke at the end, which normally
Speaker 2: we don't see. That her costuming does not sexualize her,
Speaker 2: which or objectify her. I mean, that's a different conversation
Speaker 2: in Return of the Jedi, But in this movie, I
Speaker 2: was also thinking about Padme. Yeah, I've spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time thinking about we both have and how you
Speaker 2: know not It's again, I'm not saying this to be
Speaker 2: like super complimentary, but it was. It is interesting to
Speaker 2: observe how the state of the Western feminist movement is
Speaker 2: reflected throughout whatever over like basically half a century through
Speaker 2: these movies, because somehow in two thousand we're in a
Speaker 2: worse position than we were in nineteen eighty, which was
Speaker 2: also just culturally true. Where you know, between the second
Speaker 2: and third movies, in this and the original trilogy and
Speaker 2: the sequel the Original Trilogy, we decide that while and
Speaker 2: Return of the Jedi, we have the whole jab a thing,
Speaker 2: but we decide that Leah is more powerful than we
Speaker 2: could have possibly conceived of. She is a Jedi and
Speaker 2: she has access to the Force. Whereas in the prequels.
Speaker 2: Padme gets an unbelievable character downgrade.
Speaker 3: Between movies two and three. She is more a part
Speaker 3: of the action than she'll ever be in part two,
Speaker 3: which isn't saying that much, and then in part three
Speaker 3: she's just weeping in a room the whole time.
Speaker 2: She's pregnant. She's gonna be dead soon. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 2: like it's it's she's she's really left in the trenches.
Speaker 2: So it is. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I do appreciate that Leah is being set up a
Speaker 3: rocky third movie, but a movie in which she will
Speaker 3: continue to be I don't know. I haven't I didn't
Speaker 3: watch Return of the Jedi before this, and I know
Speaker 3: she has sidelined for a significant part of the third movie,
Speaker 3: so maybe it's just tradition, right.
Speaker 2: I also didn't rewatch it for this, so it's not
Speaker 2: super fresh in my mind. But again, we'll just cover
Speaker 2: it my next birthday. But uh, yeah, I love Leah,
Speaker 2: And even though I understand why, at least during the
Speaker 2: filming of this movie, Carrie Fisher was kind of lukewarm
Speaker 2: on her get it luke warm. I wonder if I've
Speaker 2: made that joke before. I feel certain you have. I
Speaker 2: understand why she's a beloved character, and yes, I love
Speaker 2: her and that so much of that has to do
Speaker 2: with Carrie Fisher. Yes, I also love Leah, and I
Speaker 2: think this is of the three movies kind of like
Speaker 2: the best showcase of what's great about her character. Shall
Speaker 2: we talk about Lando Calarusian? Let's talk about our friend Lando.
Speaker 2: I don't have a whole awful lot to say, but
Speaker 2: similar to how Leah is the only woman in the galaxy,
Speaker 2: Lando is the only black person in the galaxy, at
Speaker 2: least with lines of dialogue that we yeah, which is
Speaker 2: and again this is another like I think Star Wars
Speaker 2: fan cope with all due respect if there's members of
Speaker 2: the community listening that people were like, well, James Earl
Speaker 2: Jones is a black actor. You're like, uh, well come on, yeah,
Speaker 2: but we never don't see him, and when you do
Speaker 2: see him, he's a white guy. He's a white guy,
Speaker 2: and he's canonically hating christiansen So that.
Speaker 3: Actually does not defly like, well, well, James Earl Jones,
Speaker 3: you know, is the most iconic cast member arguably in
Speaker 3: the entire franchise. Like, we can't be making that sort
Speaker 3: of argument, right, I have a little bit to say
Speaker 3: about Lando, who is like Billy T.
Speaker 2: Williams is just like, oh so amazing. Yeah, I was
Speaker 2: looking for a little background in how he is characteristic,
Speaker 2: and there was a fair amount written about Lando as
Speaker 2: a character when Solo came out. And then I think
Speaker 2: that conversation promptly stopped because no one saw that movie.
Speaker 2: But that's speak for yourself. I saw it in theaters
Speaker 2: twice for some reason. There were dozens of you there.
Speaker 3: But Donald Glover plays a young Lando Calrisian in that
Speaker 3: prequel movie. And so anyways, there was like a brief
Speaker 3: period of time in twenty eighteen where black culture writers
Speaker 3: were reflecting on the legacy of Lando. So this is
Speaker 3: pulling from a Slash Film article from twenty eighteen by
Speaker 3: Monique Jones Pimpin and the Black Exploitation Roots of Lando Calrissian,
Speaker 3: in which she kind of traces she mentions something that
Speaker 3: George Lucas is always He's like, Star Wars isn't racist,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, Okay, if you have to say it,
Speaker 3: maybe you need because Star Wars famously I mean, and again,
Speaker 3: like if we're thinking about Star Wars in a longer timeline,
Speaker 3: this is something that the franchise makes steps towards but
Speaker 3: never actually meaningfully improves on because you think about how
Speaker 3: John Boyego was rightfully speaking out during this sequel trilogy
Speaker 3: about how severely scaled back his character was and how
Speaker 3: he was a race from promotional materials in certain countries
Speaker 3: that were extremely racist against black people.
Speaker 2: So same thing with the Jar Jar Binks of it
Speaker 2: all and all of the racist Trump's president ar like
Speaker 2: it just well. I was also going to say the
Speaker 2: Rose character played by Kelly Marie Tran, she was the
Speaker 2: recipient of so much racist vitrey, Yeah when her character
Speaker 2: was introduced, and then she.
Speaker 3: Was completely sidelined in Rise of Skywalker. This is historically,
Speaker 3: I mean, this happens in movies quite a bit with
Speaker 3: actors of color that are initially cast in large roles.
Speaker 3: This is certainly the case consistently in Maine Star Wars
Speaker 3: franchises without fail. I mean the fact that Samuel L.
Speaker 3: Jackson turned in a mid performance through like something's going
Speaker 3: on here.
Speaker 2: Something's not right.
Speaker 3: But with Lando, who is the first significant black character
Speaker 3: in the Star Wars franchise ever. Yeah, Monique Jones talks
Speaker 3: about the cultural ideas around blackness that are being pulled
Speaker 3: from to create this character. So something I wasn't sure
Speaker 3: about but is true, is that Lando Caversian was always
Speaker 3: envisioned as a black character, and was also always.
Speaker 2: Envisioned as Billy d Williams.
Speaker 3: Specifically, I guess George Lucas was a fan, so like
Speaker 3: in his original notes, he was like Blue Dye Williams,
Speaker 3: So this part was kind of written for him. But
Speaker 3: it's pulling on a series of tropes and specifically the
Speaker 3: blaxploitation movies of the seventies. So quote Lando further defines
Speaker 3: the mainstream image of blackness as being one synonymous with
Speaker 3: coolness and slickness, but with that image comes negative associations
Speaker 3: of blackness being shifty, dangerous, and untrustworthy. It's unclear if
Speaker 3: Lucas was directly inspired by blaxploitation, but Blaxploitation's pervasiveness certainly
Speaker 3: informs Lando's character, from the cape to his roguish personality.
Speaker 3: There's a reason that many fans refer to Lando as
Speaker 3: a pimp in space. In just looks alone, Lando fits
Speaker 3: in with the sweet Sweetbacks, Dolomites, and superflies who preceded him.
Speaker 3: The iconography of the pimp is one of the lasting
Speaker 3: controversial effects of blaxploitation popularity. The image is emblazoned in
Speaker 3: our minds. A charismatic black man with perm straight hair,
Speaker 3: a flashy hat, and equally flashy clothes. Auf fur or
Speaker 3: cape of some kind was always in the mix. Lando
Speaker 3: iiO has relaxed hair, a saunter an expensive looking blue
Speaker 3: cape lined with luxurious gold fabric, complete with a gold
Speaker 3: neck chain. Looking at Lando from a blaxploitation perspective, the
Speaker 3: character continues in the tradition of updating the trickster persona
Speaker 3: via the pimp. Even though Lando is in a galaxy
Speaker 3: in which racism doesn't exist, his costuming and his cape
Speaker 3: in particular calls back to the movie Pimps of the
Speaker 3: recent past of the time, showing the audience he has
Speaker 3: the mystique that the other white characters can't quite replicate
Speaker 3: or understand. His clothes exemplify his ability to work outside
Speaker 3: the system that is still despite it being at a
Speaker 3: galaxy far far away, set and run by white people.
Speaker 3: In this way as well, Lando's character harkens back to
Speaker 3: black exploitation. His individual acts of resistance, such as tricking
Speaker 3: Han and working with Darth Vader with the goal of
Speaker 3: securing Cloud City's protection are quote conceived in confusion and
Speaker 3: executed in panic. He doesn't stop to think how his
Speaker 3: double crossing would have come back to cross him. All
Speaker 3: he knows are the ways of the swindler. Despite his
Speaker 3: role as a government leader, his trickster ways are tied
Speaker 3: to his blackness. And whether or not Lucas realized this,
Speaker 3: he still gave his critics ammunition against him despite his
Speaker 3: inclusion of a black character. So it's a very interesting piece.
Speaker 3: She also later goes on to review how Lando's character
Speaker 3: is addressed in solo, which isn't relevant here. But we haven't,
Speaker 3: you know, really talked about the black exploitation genre in
Speaker 3: any deep way here, and I wanted to just acknowledge.
Speaker 2: That that was a.
Speaker 3: Very very thoroughly discussed and people are of so many
Speaker 3: minds about it genre that was, you know, sort of
Speaker 3: at its height in the seventies, and that you can
Speaker 3: see its influence on Lando Calrisian. But what every analysis
Speaker 3: of Lando, like it always ends, including this piece, ends
Speaker 3: with that said. I love Calrisian and he's really cool,
Speaker 3: and Billy D.
Speaker 2: Williams is awesome, and Lando Rocks, and I think that
Speaker 2: both of these things are true that like, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: and what is also true is and this is part
Speaker 2: of the you know, like smooth talker, like blaxploitation inspired
Speaker 2: characterization of him. You might call him a smooth talker,
Speaker 2: or you might say that he's being a creep toward
Speaker 2: Leah because he's always being like, I mean, look what
Speaker 2: we have here, And I think in that way he's
Speaker 2: being a creep in the same way Hans a creep.
Speaker 2: This is true, Like, yes, they're just both creepee guys
Speaker 2: who found each other, like many creepy. And that said,
Speaker 2: I do love Landell Kelrisian. So yeah, it's complicated. I
Speaker 2: really think everyone loves I mean, I don't know. I
Speaker 2: was not in my admittedly kind of like not deep research,
Speaker 2: but I was not able to find any Lando calrisy
Speaker 2: and haters. I don't which is all Billy dev I mean,
Speaker 2: like Billy D. Williams is so awesome. Yeah for sure.
Speaker 3: So anyways, yeah, I do think that there Even though
Speaker 3: George Lucas has resisted any racial analysis of this character,
Speaker 3: obviously it is there. It has been discussed quite a bit.
Speaker 3: And again there's like the classic Star Wars tokenism to
Speaker 3: this character that also exists for Lea, where in the
Speaker 3: entire galaxy there is one black person and one woman,
Speaker 3: and she of course is white. And for many classic films,
Speaker 3: this was the way the world worked.
Speaker 2: I do appreciate with with Lando, it's like it's impossible
Speaker 2: to I think, impossible to dislike him by the end
Speaker 2: of the movie. And I do appreciate that we are
Speaker 2: given context for why he's doing what he's doing. He's
Speaker 2: not double crossing Han and Lea because that's just who
Speaker 2: he is out of like SPIKEE or Malice. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a survival based decision, does it. There are many implications
Speaker 2: that come with that. But I did appreciate that, like
Speaker 2: you are given a clear reason not just why he
Speaker 2: does it, but but why he is later forgiven right
Speaker 2: because the first chance he gets he double crosses Darth
Speaker 2: Vader and tries to help his friends so and then
Speaker 2: appears again in Return of the Jedi as one of
Speaker 2: the crew. I mean well, speaking to that, speaking to
Speaker 2: like a choice of survival, something that we didn't talk about,
Speaker 2: I don't think on our first Star Wars like our
Speaker 2: New Hope episode, but the fact that this is like, now,
Speaker 2: if I was there, I no idea. Yeah. I also
Speaker 2: think that might have been one of the episodes where
Speaker 2: you kind of didn't watch the movie. Yeah, I didn't
Speaker 2: think podcasting was going to be a job. I just
Speaker 2: thought we were so we were chilling, having fun. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But the anti imperial nature of this whole franchise, I
Speaker 2: think it's best handled in and or it's very very simplified.
Speaker 2: I think in the original trilogy, where it's just sort
Speaker 2: of like Empire, bad Rebel, Alliance, good guys. Well, and
Speaker 2: it's like the first trilogy is really clearly pulling on
Speaker 2: World War two stuff. I mean it's like that, sure,
Speaker 2: you know in a way that I feel like, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I'm not trying to hand it to George
Speaker 2: Lucas with the subtlety of his storytelling, but some of
Speaker 2: like the visuals are so overt that it feels like
Speaker 2: you don't that they're like sort of electing you to
Speaker 2: fill in the blanks on your own based on your
Speaker 2: knowledge of what would have then been like pretty recent history.
Speaker 2: But oh yeah, yeah, if you look at like side
Speaker 2: by side footage from this original trilogy and footage from
Speaker 2: Nazi World War two. Yeah, battles like the parallels are visible.
Speaker 2: But this is why I like and Or so much
Speaker 2: because it examines in a far more nuanced way what
Speaker 2: a fascist empire looks like and what it does, what
Speaker 2: a revolution against that looks like, how a resistance movement ignites,
Speaker 2: and the complicated figures who are participating in it along
Speaker 2: the way. Yeah, so everyone should watch and Or. But
Speaker 2: but then it's like to do that, watch it illegally
Speaker 2: because Disney Plus is well that that's the thing is now,
Speaker 2: like you have to make well, you don't have to. Also,
Speaker 2: you don't have to you don't have to make anti
Speaker 2: fascist content for the fascist but like you know, there
Speaker 2: are there are many, uh like for for a certain budget,
Speaker 2: people are forced to put themselves or to forced to
Speaker 2: choose to be in that position. Yeah, it's a whole
Speaker 2: thing anyways, and Or's good. And the last thing I
Speaker 2: wanted to touch on was just a little bit about
Speaker 2: the Jedi. Are we talking religion because like iology, Okay,
Speaker 2: and we talked a bit about this in our Prequels
Speaker 2: episode as well, but I wanted to talk a little
Speaker 2: bit more about the kind of like philosophy and ideology
Speaker 2: of the Jedi. There is a video essay from Pop
Speaker 2: Culture Detective Agency which we might have cited this specific
Speaker 2: essay before, but it's about how even though the Jedi
Speaker 2: in these movies are portrayed as these like wise heroic
Speaker 2: protectors of the galaxy, they actually represent a rather toxic
Speaker 2: version of masculinity because a huge part of their ethos
Speaker 2: is suppressing your feelings emotional vulnerability equals weakness, and because
Speaker 2: most Jedi Knights are men, especially in the first two trilogies,
Speaker 2: we can see the parallels between Jedi ideology and patriarchal
Speaker 2: conditioning in our galaxy, in our world. Yeah, it gets
Speaker 2: more into the Jedi lore, I guess in the prequel
Speaker 2: trilogy because the reason Anakin is seduced by the Dark
Speaker 2: Side is because he makes the mistake of having feelings
Speaker 2: and of having deep connections with women, both his mother
Speaker 2: and his beloved Padme right, and that's what inevitably leads
Speaker 2: him to the dark Side, which you could read as
Speaker 2: commentary on like, look what horrible things happen when men
Speaker 2: are discouraged from freely feeling their emotions, But the prequels
Speaker 2: do not frame it that way.
Speaker 3: Really, No, the prequels the prequels kind of, I think
Speaker 3: if we're operating in and I think that that is
Speaker 3: actually a good reason people don't like because there's some
Speaker 3: reasons people don't like the Prequels that are annoying and
Speaker 3: some that are valid, which is that like this whole
Speaker 3: spiritual encouragement to connect with one's emotions, to have a
Speaker 3: clear perspective of the world, and to meditate and all
Speaker 3: these things that are demonstrably good is retconned to be
Speaker 3: this like weirdo. It's just like over explaining and kind
Speaker 3: of undercuts what makes it so interesting in the first
Speaker 3: place and what makes it possible for viewers to kind
Speaker 3: of take on for themselves in a positive way.
Speaker 2: Right Because going back to the specific movie we're discussing today,
Speaker 2: I think that one of the things that distinguishes Luke
Speaker 2: Skywalker from his father Anakin slash Darth Vader is that
Speaker 2: Luke kind of rejects this part of Jedi ideology. And
Speaker 2: we see this in a scene where Luke sees that
Speaker 2: like future vision of Han and Leah being in danger,
Speaker 2: possibly about to die, and he wants to go save them.
Speaker 2: Yoda and Obi Wan's Ghost, which are his Jedi trainers,
Speaker 2: are like, no, who cares about your friends? You have
Speaker 2: to stay here and finish your Jedi training, and Luke
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to sacrifice my loved ones, which, to be fair,
Speaker 2: I guess knowing the events of the prequels helps that
Speaker 2: moment hit a little harder, where you realize that like
Speaker 2: Yoda and Obi Wan are kind of like beating the
Speaker 2: same drum until Luke proves them otherwise. Sure, yeah, I guess,
Speaker 2: but it's it's all over the place. It's all over
Speaker 2: the place.
Speaker 3: I do like that, and that like multiple things end
Speaker 3: up being true, where like Luke does is right to
Speaker 3: go and rescue his friends. And also it was a trap,
Speaker 3: like they weren't totally wrong.
Speaker 2: They were wrong. But Luke is like, well, since I
Speaker 2: know it's a trap, I can maybe work around that.
Speaker 2: Leah still has to tell him it's true. But isn't
Speaker 2: that isn't not the way? I mean, She's always the
Speaker 2: most discerning character in the room. She's always the voice
Speaker 2: of reason she is, and the franchise eventually recognizes that.
Speaker 2: It just takes it takes a while. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: guess what I'm saying is. One of the things I
Speaker 2: like about this movie is that at least Luke is
Speaker 2: permitted to be more emotionally vulnerable. He's more expressive with
Speaker 2: his emotions, certainly than Han solo is. He cares deeply
Speaker 2: about his friends, and he's not afraid to show it.
Speaker 2: I love you need more men like that. I love
Speaker 2: Luke so much. I feel like we really often not
Speaker 2: that Luke Skyworker is an overlooked character. Obviously he isn't,
Speaker 2: but that in favor of Han in terms of like
Speaker 2: what makes a character interesting and attractive, I do think
Speaker 2: he is kind of overlooked. Sometimes no totally.
Speaker 3: Because his qualities are objectively I guess and whatever. I'm
Speaker 3: speaking for myself here, but like more attractive than what
Speaker 3: Han is doing. But the movie is very didactic in
Speaker 3: telling you who deserves romantic attention and what behaviors should
Speaker 3: be quote unquote rewarded. And that's a whole other thing
Speaker 3: with romantic attention and what shouldn't be And like Luke,
Speaker 3: while we clearly we love Luke, he is you know,
Speaker 3: he is our protagonist. He is notably the recipient of
Speaker 3: less romantic attention than Han.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Leiah only kisses him to make Han jealous, and then.
Speaker 3: They make that weird and gross in retrospect and like
Speaker 3: their sister and brother. Actually, and I'm not saying that
Speaker 3: like Luke should have a romantic interest, Like, That's not
Speaker 3: what I'm saying at all. I just think it's pointed
Speaker 3: who you know has the because in this world and
Speaker 3: in this time and still often now, the romantic interest
Speaker 3: of a CIS woman is treated as a plot reward,
Speaker 3: and Hana is clearly the recipient of that plot reward
Speaker 3: in this franchise.
Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, I have come all the way around on this.
Speaker 2: Where as a kid, as a teenager, into my twenties,
Speaker 2: maybe even into my early thirties, I was like Luke
Speaker 2: Skywalker whiny and annoying, Hans Solo cool and hot and rugged,
Speaker 2: And now I'm like Han Solo a dick who needs
Speaker 2: to go to therapy, Luke Skywalker soft, gentle kind, sweetie
Speaker 2: and sweet. And again, I look, if you're someone in
Speaker 2: the business of dating straight men, you'll encounter your fair
Speaker 2: share like no, no shade. If you're still like I like,
Speaker 2: unfortunately Hannegging is hot to me, Like you, you live
Speaker 2: in the society and it's your right. I'm just saying
Speaker 2: that Luke is mister Sweety and and I recognize that.
Speaker 2: And also it seems like Mark Hamill was mister Sweety,
Speaker 2: and it is possibly mister Sweety to this day. Do
Speaker 2: you remember when we went to that event at a
Speaker 2: now defunct comedy space, UCB Sunset and he was there?
Speaker 2: No where were we. It was something that Liz Winsteed
Speaker 2: was doing. Oh, it was a comedy show. I think
Speaker 2: it was a fundraiser that was promoting access to abortion.
Speaker 2: I do remember going to that. I don't remember that
Speaker 2: Mark Hamill was there. Mark Hamill was there, I think,
Speaker 2: like doing random illustrations or something. He's like, I mean,
Speaker 2: from what I know, and I'm not a Mark, but
Speaker 2: it seems like, you know, I'm sure they're a little
Speaker 2: lib but like it seems like he's he's like a
Speaker 2: genuinely like sweet and thoughtful person. I think so. And no,
Speaker 2: he was, he was there. I'm wondering if I can
Speaker 2: like dig up pictures from this event, but yeah, he
Speaker 2: was there, and I was like freaking out. I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's Luke Skywalker. This is incredible. And
Speaker 2: you were sitting next to me being like I feel nothing.
Speaker 2: I guess that's why I don't remember, because I felt nothing.
Speaker 2: It was just another day for me. Yeah, yeah, fair,
Speaker 2: but but no, Yeah, he's mister sweetie. He seems like
Speaker 2: a sweetie. And yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's everything I had for this.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's tricky because when you're talking about one
Speaker 3: Star Wars movie, you're kind of talking about all of them.
Speaker 3: So I'm sure that there's things we missed. Listeners. If
Speaker 3: there is anything in particular that you feel we should
Speaker 3: have discussed and didn't, please let us know. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, there's so much to love about this movie.
Speaker 2: I understand why it's a lot of people's favorites. I
Speaker 2: will point out that this is the and I'm not
Speaker 2: totally sure why this is, but this is the only
Speaker 2: Star Wars movie of the original trilogy that was not,
Speaker 2: I believe, edited by a woman, Marsha Griffin, who would
Speaker 2: have been Marshall Lucas at the time, who I remember
Speaker 2: because of her iconic quote about how she, long after
Speaker 2: her divorce, saw Star Wars Episode one and went to
Speaker 2: her car and cried after and was like, what happened
Speaker 2: to my ex husband? What a flop? Why did he
Speaker 2: make such a bad movie, but she did. She did
Speaker 2: edit episode four and six, so I'm not sure why
Speaker 2: she didn't edit this one, but she needed a break maybe,
Speaker 2: I mean, we just we haven't talked about the original
Speaker 2: trilogy in so long that I just wanted to shout
Speaker 2: her out. She also, I mean, she was like very
Speaker 2: much in this group where she also edited American Graffiti
Speaker 2: and but a bunch of Scorsese movies, Taxi Driver, New York,
Speaker 2: New York. Alice doesn't live here anymore, Like she's a legend,
Speaker 2: a legend anything else you want to talk about. No,
Speaker 2: I can't wait to see Babu Frick. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: we're gonna see And look, I'm not above thinking Grogu
Speaker 2: is cute.
Speaker 3: I look, there's sometimes I look at my cat Casper,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, hmmmm, Grogu vibes, and I see it.
Speaker 2: Look, we're uh. Sometimes you just have to remember we're
Speaker 2: living at difficult times and you have to be cringe
Speaker 2: every once in a while, and it's a sign of
Speaker 2: you know, uh whatever, it's a sign of happy birthday. Caitlin,
Speaker 2: does this say past the absolutely not. No, I didn't close.
Speaker 2: There's not another woman there is I did see with
Speaker 2: mine own eyes. Oh no, not us starting to do
Speaker 2: the like I saw a woman. You're talking about it,
Speaker 2: like how they talk about like the munchkins that are
Speaker 2: allegedly dead in the background of Wizard of Ows. That's
Speaker 2: how you're you're like, oh, wait, we actually correct it.
Speaker 2: We actually updated it to four K. And it was
Speaker 2: a tree. It wasn't anything. It wasn't a woman at all.
Speaker 2: Even so U huh, there's a woman. She's on hof okay,
Speaker 2: at the rebel base. She I think is in front
Speaker 2: of a computer. She maybe has a headset on that's
Speaker 2: so valid. So she's doing something that's so valid, but
Speaker 2: Leah doesn't talk to her. In twenty seventeen, they would
Speaker 2: have made a four part mini series about her. But
Speaker 2: now there's no more TV and misogyny's back, and they
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't anyway. So yeah, that's a note on the
Speaker 2: Bechdel test. But what about our nipple scale, where we
Speaker 2: rate the movie on a scale of zero to five
Speaker 2: nipples examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens hm hmm. Indeed, well, again,
Speaker 2: we've talked about how Lea is an iconic and admirable
Speaker 2: ca character. She is not immune to gendered tropes of
Speaker 2: the time, but she also defies a lot of gendered
Speaker 2: tropes of the time in that she's allowed to actually
Speaker 2: participate in the story and the action. And that's that's
Speaker 2: not insignificant. The bar is in hell, but that there
Speaker 2: is that. But I do love Leah and I love
Speaker 2: Krrie Fisher. I don't know. I guess maybe like a
Speaker 2: nipple and a half. Yeah, maybe two. I was gonna
Speaker 2: give it too. Based on the existence and delayed celebration
Speaker 2: of Lee Bracket fair where while Star Wars is very flawed,
Speaker 2: I think you're hard pressed to find many movies of
Speaker 2: its era where there are women in roles that prominent,
Speaker 2: including in the editing booth, et cetera. Again, it's peanuts,
Speaker 2: but it was rare at the time. And I'll I'll
Speaker 2: say two nipples for that. Same one goes to Carrie Fisher,
Speaker 2: one goes to Lee Bracket. I'm gonna do the exact
Speaker 2: same secret. Third nipple goes to Babu Frick Baboo Frick. Guys,
Speaker 2: we're gonna, we're gonna all start cheering at the theater
Speaker 2: when he comes out, right right, I will, We're gonna
Speaker 2: get him that side thing that they were supposed to do.
Speaker 2: Do you remember how the voice of Babou Frick said
Speaker 2: that she wanted there to be a serious about him,
Speaker 2: about his romantic exploits of the past. I did not
Speaker 2: know that, but but I need it. I really, I
Speaker 2: really carry a torch for that, for that anecdote where
Speaker 2: she was like, if she's like, there's a story here this,
Speaker 2: this little guy has lived, Babu Frick Fricks, it's right there.
Speaker 3: It's right there, and we're available for work when the
Speaker 3: series gets greenlit. Keivin Happy birthday, Thank you so much,
Speaker 3: thank you for bringing one of the best Star Wars
Speaker 3: movies ever.
Speaker 2: Happy to do it, and I don't know if I
Speaker 2: will commit to covering Return of the Jedi next year
Speaker 2: for my birthday, but it's a strong possibility, but love it.
Speaker 2: Thank you for covering this with me today.
Speaker 3: Of course, and thank you listeners as always. Sorry, my
Speaker 3: computer's going to die in like two minutes, so I'm
Speaker 3: racing to the finish. You can find us as always
Speaker 3: if you enjoyed this episode, but just the two of us,
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Speaker 3: fun community that we're very thrilled to be a part of.
Speaker 3: So yeah, check us out there and on Instagram for updates,
Speaker 3: and uh, that's kind of it.
Speaker 2: That's kind of it. Shall we get in our millennium
Speaker 2: falcon and press the hyper drive button and go to
Speaker 2: light speed whatever the hell that means. Let's do it, Okay,
Speaker 2: Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
Speaker 2: hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and Me Caitlyn Durrante.
Speaker 2: The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann and edited
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