WEBVTT - Ep. 24: Wyman Meinzer 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:06.240 Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number twenty four of The 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:10.160 Hunting Collective. I'm been O'Brien today. I'm gonna start a 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:14.200 little bit of a journey, uh, a journey and podcast 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:19.200 for him, but a journey nonetheless my family and I. 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.480 Hopefully you have heard this by now, or if you're listening, 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.200 you may have caught wind a bit. We are moving 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:30.680 from Texas to Montana. Um, why are we moving Texas Montana? Well, 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.000 Montana is a beautiful place, a beautiful place to raise 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.479 your children, a beautiful place to recreate, a beautiful place 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.320 to hunt, a beautiful place to fish in a place 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.279 that I've always desired to spend my life, even from 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:44.680 when I was a little kid. I used to my 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.960 dad used to watch with us Lonesome Dub the miniseries 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:50.519 when I was a kid. I must have watched it 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.480 hundreds of times over my life. And those folks I 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:56.960 thought about Montana much the way I think about Montana. 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.160 This great frontier. This is a place to live your 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.440 life and the things you want to do. And those 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.440 guys and Loan some Dove, those cowboys went from Texas 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.800 to Montana. And so that's what I'm going to do. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.199 But before I leave Texas, I want to have conversations 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.040 with people that are important to me during my time here, 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.399 but also important to this place because this is a 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.640 place where my son was born. This is the place 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:23.000 where I was privileged enough to work for a company 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.039 called Yetti Cool. This is a place where I was 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.880 privileged enough to um core and expand as a person, 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.240 and that means more to me than than this place 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.280 will ever understand or I would probably ever understand. So 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:44.320 the next few podcasts will be in Texas, and they 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.039 will be with people that I think speak to my 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.560 time here, but also the state and it's culture and 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.640 it's hunting Way, and so hopefully you enjoy um My 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.200 victory lab is not a good term my final lab 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.080 in Texas and get to explore are some new people 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:06.440 in places with me before we go. So, without further ado, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.640 the first person on my list to talk to in 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:15.200 this Texas Final Lap was Wyman Men's. Wyman Men's are, 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.480 if you don't know him, is an extraordinary human being, 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:21.880 and he's extraordinary in many many ways. His life and 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:28.120 times are exceptional. He is a man of great faith 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.560 in the outdoors. He is a man of great creativity. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:36.000 He's a man that that is exceptional and what he 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.680 can build and and his photography and his hunting life. 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.760 So what you're about to hear is Wyman men'ser, legendary 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:51.639 Texas kyote hunter, state photographer and a man of many schemes. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.360 So you're about to hear this man, a man that 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.800 is very special to me. Hopefully you learn about his 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.080 life and in doing so, learn a little bit about 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.760 his connection to check in my connection to him. So 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:24.959 without dude, Episode number twenty four, menor Wimon and Sarah 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.000 being Now are you sir? I'm well, thank you. Oh 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.040 we're in Benjamin, Texas, are we not? Yes, sir, you 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.920 lived here your entire entire life. Yes, I was raised 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.840 on a ranch about eleven miles out of Benjamin. Yeah. 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.640 You don't have to tell your age, but yeah, sixty 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.880 seven years old. I'll go ahead and be honest. I 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.800 didn't want to pressure you in anything at all. Uh. Well, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.960 that's an impressive that's an impressive feet given a lot 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.080 of times today. You know, guys my age don't stick 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:02.840 around their home place very very often. Yeah. Um, you know, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.080 I really didn't think that I would once I got 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.360 out of college. Um, I wasn't went to Texas Tech University, 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.280 but it came back and circumstances were such that that 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.240 I felt like this would be a good place to headquarter. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:22.279 And it worked out, yeah, in spades, in spades. Well, 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.000 I mean, might as well start at the very beginning. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.640 You grew up here, uh with a brother and a sister, right, Um, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:30.800 you grew up on a ranch not far from here, 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.280 and tell you, just tell me about growing up and 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.360 and you call it the big empty Well we uh 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:39.640 the ranch that uh that we were reared on as 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.240 a twenty seven thousand acre, which is not a big 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.680 outfit in this part of the country, but it's it's 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.480 a decent size, definitely good for a couple of buys 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.440 to be raised on. My dad was a foreman there 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.559 and he was there for thirty years and uh raised 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.880 up as a as a cowboy and learned to to 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:02.039 work cattle and break horses in the whole deal. And uh, 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:07.400 but my main love was wash was hunting and studying 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.200 the natural history of various species. And I was always 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.080 going and collecting bird eggs and inspecting birds that I 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.560 had to shot with a bb gun and and uh 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.840 a key and them out and it it lent to 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:27.039 to what I'm I'm doing today for for sure. Yeah. 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.120 And we were talking about this at breakfast this morning, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.480 you know, and even and over whiskey last night, about 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.280 growing up in that environment and what that, how that 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.880 shapes you, and what that makes you, the grit that 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.320 it gives you, the drive and work hard. I mean 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.400 you were raised at a hard work and hard scramble 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:49.240 and life this country, you know it it's pressure, I 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:55.359 mean it is it's it's not an easy place to live. Um. Uh. 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.400 You know, we find a lot of old house places 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.679 we found there on the ranch. Um in the early 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:08.120 nineteen hundreds, people really came in here in droves and 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.720 you know, um farmed, you know, cut out a little 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:13.960 piece of parcel of land and tried to farm it. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:20.719 And through time the land pretty well, um weeded out 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:25.240 to where it's now probably at its carrying capacity. Early on, 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.720 it was it was just you know, overgrazed more or less, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.320 I guess you could say. And so even today though, 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.560 it's hard because you know, it's just mostly big ranch 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.760 country and uh, ranching practices have changed. You don't need 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.760 as many people working on ranches and So the town 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.640 of Benjamin itself used to be a population of like 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.919 six hundred. Now it's like two. But that's basically what 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.599 it what it should be. And so my dad and 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.680 mom were both raised in the Depression years, raised hard. 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.800 My dad was on the large Emily and that where 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.279 they parceled out the kids to other families where they 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.800 could have enough to eat. My mom lived in dugouts 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.000 and tents during the Depression. She has bad memories about it, 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.960 but they were resilient people. And they taught my brother 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.080 and I, especially my brother and I my sister not 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.480 so much, but taught us, you know, how to how 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.280 to be independent and to appreciate doing things for yourself. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.320 And I appreciate that very much and it's and it's uh, 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.240 it's been good good to me because so much of 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.840 my life revolves around, you know, uh, doing things your 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.520 own way and trying to figure things out and uh 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.040 and to make it work, make do yeah. Yeah, I 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.840 mean the early part of your story is very much 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:49.800 just you know, the life most kids would dream about, right, 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.720 I mean, a roaming around this country on horseback, roaming 0:07:53.720 --> 0:08:00.280 at will your parents to uh did not um, you know, 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.600 stay on you constantly you know, where are you going? 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.480 It was just like, watch for rattlesnakes. That that was 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.320 the warning when we were kids. When you go outside, y'all, 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.760 watch for rattlesnakes. And if you got a half a 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.880 mile from the house with your baby gun or you're 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.960 twenty two and mothers missed you, will she'd host jard 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:20.880 holler and you could hear a mile away. She had 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.280 a shrill voice, and you knew it was time to 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.840 come back home. But they just didn't keep a rain 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.080 tight rain on you. You were allowed to go out 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:33.599 and be yourself and explore and be creative and in 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.640 doing uh fighting things to do. And it was it was. 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.360 It was a good thing. It's a good life. Well, 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.680 I mean you got a good power of description. I 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.480 mean describe for people listening that I've never been to 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.240 this country. Of course, this is north You go on 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.320 north central Texas and I would say, um, what this 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.240 country looks like. I mean that the I think, the land, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.720 the animals, just the feeling of being here. Well, uh, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.120 first off, whether wise, it's we have some fairly cool 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.520 cold winters, very hot summers, so it's it's kind of 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.640 one extreme to the other. Um it. We have a 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.880 thousands of acres what they call the bad lands and 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:18.200 local bad lands, Knox County bad lands and uh it's 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:23.199 it's just the old red beds, ancient red beds, uh 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:28.320 apparently old river beds, because you'll find uh gravel, layers 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.560 of gravel, and the edges of the cliffs with a 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:36.200 lot of of mammoth bones. I've actually had paleontologies come 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.000 out and I show them these skeletons and they say, yes, 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.240 that's mammo, that's that's camel as the ancient horse bones. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.800 And then you have your your deep soil sites where 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.640 there's a lot of mesquite. The bad lands pretty well 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:56.440 um is uh um dominated by by juniper. And then 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.680 your your deep soil size from mesquite and to boast 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.640 of grass, buffalo grass. We have whitetailed deer, a lot 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:09.400 of wild of wild farrell hogs, a lot of coats 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.920 and um and quite a few bobcats. We don't have 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.640 any foxes to speak of. They live more or less 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.480 in the in town where they're where they're protected from 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.480 coats because coats even like hot dogs, they hang out 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.280 at the bars, so they they hang out in people's 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.760 garages up in the attics because if they get out 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.400 of town, the coats eat them. And because we have 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.000 in the wintertime and this is a central flyway, so 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.400 we have a good, uh, a good population of snow 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.880 geese and the and the Canadians come through. Not a 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.079 lot of ducks. Back in the sixties, you know, I've 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:52.400 seen a transition in the in the waterfowl, the makeup 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.200 of the water waterfowl population. In the sixties, it was 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.240 just the opposite. We had a lot of crane saniel, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:06.240 cranes that stayed here through the winter, tremendous almost unimaginable 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:12.199 numbers of green heads, canvasbacks, and a few uh, Canadian geese. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.880 And now it's just reversed. We have a few cranes 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:20.160 come in early along with your your teal and and 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.199 and those little species, and then the cranes move on 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.559 up to the panhandle, right, and then the ducks they 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.400 just we just don't have the duck numbers we did 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.320 in the sixties. And I don't understand why, because we've 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:38.400 got as much or more water, but it may have 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.160 they switched they've switched their flyaway there fat well, I mean, 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.600 that's a good description of this place, and I mean 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.360 it's it's shaped you in a lot of ways. It has, 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.960 um you know, like I say, growing up on the 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.520 ranch and and being raised as as an independent person. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.400 And of course when I went to Texas Tech, I 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:03.000 studied while biology and then whenever I left, instead of 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.080 getting a job, I became a coon hunter, professional Kyan 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.880 hunter and living out on a pitchfork ranch and a 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.360 half dug out. And there's where you really became independent 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.160 because you know, you go into town once week to 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:20.280 get groceries and um, and basically you were your own man. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.680 I mean there was there was nobody to ask questions to, 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.320 nobody to talk to to exchange ideas with. It was 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.960 just you in the land. Yeah, I want to go 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.400 through that specifically specific but I don't know if you've 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.200 ever talked about other than the time you told me 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.480 the first time you saw a hippie on the Texas 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.720 the first time you encountered a hippie who was having 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.760 a deep conversation with some fire and it was some 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.080 red ants, some harvest dance, so he was probably having 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:52.079 a good talk with him apparently. So they're circumstances exactly. Um, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.480 But you went to Texas Tech and wildlife biology was 0:12:55.520 --> 0:13:01.600 the choice of trade. Was that just because the intense 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.199 connection you had to this place and the animals, all 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.600 those things, that's what drove you to that. And then yes, 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.800 and the study of that kind of reaffirmed right. And 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.800 I knew that. I knew there were no job opportunities. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.840 I was aware of that at the time, and but 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.640 I was determined to get a degree in wildlife apology 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.680 while back then they called it wildlife management. And um 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.680 but uh uh, you know, I mean I could have 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.880 been a cowboy. Heaven forbid. I mean, I respect, I 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:35.440 love cowboys. I love that life way. I still um 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.560 across paths wism work with them in some of my 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.560 photo shoots. I can speak their language. It's just that 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:46.200 I've smelled enough horse flat horse swept my life. It's 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.760 just that I really loved working with with wild creatures. 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.440 That and I actually aspired at one time to be 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.679 a paleontologist and found out that it took too much math, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.199 and so I'm not a mathematician. That I I still 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:05.840 have a great interest in paleontology. Yeah. Well, that so 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.840 you graduated from college, you go through the process there 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.120 and you decide pretty much immediately right too, to come 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:18.160 back become a professional hunter. You lived in a in 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.320 a it was a dugout. There's a little half dugout. 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.600 It was built in nineteen forty eight when the Pitchfork 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.120 bought that portion of the ranch from the Matador. And 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.080 I actually I actually knew uh the man who helped 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:37.440 build it in nineteen and and so um uh it was, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.600 um just a little one room shack with a fireplace 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.200 in the end. And uh partially you know, the windows 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.240 up was out of the ground and the windows down 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.600 was below ground. And it was in the middle of 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.600 a hundred and sixty eight thousand ranch, a Pacer ranch, 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:57.280 And of course I had surrounding ranches that I hunted on. Also, Uh, 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.320 you had the bags fifty thousand acres, and you had 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.920 and uh an old fellow name of Hubert Young, and 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.080 he had ten thousand acres. And then you had the 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.760 springer was forty thousand and another ten thousand acre wrench. 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.880 And that was before commercial hunting. I was the only 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.680 guy out there. I never heard a rifle shot, I 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.000 never saw another person hunting. The years that I spent 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.200 three winners that I spent actually five winners. I spent 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.920 three winners living in the dugout, and then two other 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.520 winners hunting out there still working out of Benjamin. I 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.520 never saw anybody else hunning. And it was it was 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.800 like you stepped back into the eighteenth, eighteen hundreds, and 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.120 nineteenth century. You're living in a You're living in a 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.680 one room dugout. Very much that was very much akin 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.520 to win was built in the forties, right, I'm seeing pictures. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.720 I mean it is. It was literally a one room 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.520 hole in the in the side of the hill and 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:57.560 you're you get up every morning, you were running traplines 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:02.120 me and just talked about the daily life. Because I 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.920 think we've talked a lot about this in this visit 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:06.800 when we visited a bunch of times, but in this 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:12.080 particularly visit a lot about what how soft our life 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.000 is right now? You know, my like, how how I'm 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.360 trying to escape the softest of life by going out 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.400 and hunting. You came out of college and plunged into 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:30.360 the headlong into the hardest, hardest life imaginable. It was. 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.160 You know, of course I didn't. I didn't going to 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.320 a dog pool slate or anything like that. I had 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.360 my forward drift pick up. But every morning was it 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.880 was a ritual. Every every day I took out when 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.240 I when I moved in, I took five thousand rounds 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.240 of twin two ammunition and a couple of hundred rounds 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.440 a high powered rifle to shoot my coys. With my 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.960 twenty two, I used to dispatch animals and trapped in practice, 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.200 and of course my my food stuff. And then in 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.960 the mornings, I would get get up before daylight, eat breakfast, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:09.440 fixed my lunch, same lunch every day, a summer sausage sandwich, 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:18.000 canteena water, and a peanut peanut patty candy bar that 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.000 I would not eat a piece of it until I 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.160 caught an animal. When I called a code, I would 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:29.080 break a piece off to reward myself. And all day 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.720 I went along the trap line like fifty sixty miles. 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.439 And then when I got back to cabin in the evening, 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.639 I skinned stretched and if I had enough time, I 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:44.199 would practice shooting with my Winchester and mountain and uh. 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.640 Then I cut for firewood, draw my water for that night, 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.440 for either a bath on it took one bath week, 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:55.359 or washing dishes, and then I would finish dinner, wash 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.560 the dishes right in my journal, sit in front of 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.440 the fire, and then go to it every night, seven 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.680 days a week, thirty days a month, all winter along. 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.800 That's what that was alive. And it was great. I 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.400 loved it, Yeah, I loved it. First winter was fabulous. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.440 Second winner got a little tougher. Third winter was real 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:20.120 tough because I've become a little bit more uh social, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.479 and living down there, you were pretty restricted. I mean 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.679 you're a young man at this point, right, you know 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.760 I needed to see somebody, Yeah, and so every once 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.560 in a while cowboy would come by and I'd say 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.120 hi to him and be able to talk to him. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.639 But other than that, I'd go to a day or 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.080 two days without saying anything. And that that kind of 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.720 got to you after a while. Yeah, I imagine it would. 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:46.600 So you're killing coyotes, bobcats. You're you're earning money right 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:51.200 from from the pelts, right, So you were how many coyotes, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.480 uh among how many kods a season? And how many boats? Well, 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.800 how much money would you make? Well, you know, we 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.120 did our coats here in Texas weren't worth that much. 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.280 You were fifteen bucks piece, but I needed to make 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.840 four I need to catch four animal units today, and 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.120 I considered an animal unit. A code bobcat was worth 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.480 two animal units, a fox three quarters of a unit. 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.440 And uh, with four animal units today, I could make 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.000 my pickup payment, my college loan payment, and buy groceries 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.199 and have some spending money. And so my goal was 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.280 to at four animal units today and I did a 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.800 lot of people nowadays say I'm a professional hunter. That 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:35.280 is what you were. It was professionally that was hunting, right, Yeah, 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.000 I mean what I ask many questions about that time 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:39.560 in your life. But one of my I always thought 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.840 was like, what are your main takeaways? Because well, I'll 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.520 tell you. You know, uh, you know, with age, you 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:50.760 you know, you you become mellowed out and you don't 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.800 hunt as much. But I can look back on those 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:59.080 years and realize that hunting at that level it is. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:05.600 People can't fathom being that involved in hunting today, uh, 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.359 back in the eighteen hundred year, But you become so 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.720 you become so involved in the natural history of the 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.320 species that you were after every I mean every track. 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.119 You know, you studied the tracks, you studied the what 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.080 you thought was the time of day or night. The 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:30.600 tracts were made you watched weather patterns. Uh, you anticipated 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.840 animal movements in accordance to weather patterns. Uh, you learned 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:40.320 that cos travel in certain areas in the daytime versus nighttime. 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.840 And your average person today who goes out and quote hunts, 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:51.439 has no idea of that level of understanding of the 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:56.239 natural history of animals that you have to that you 0:20:56.320 --> 0:21:00.320 have to have in order to be a professional hunter. Yeah, 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.200 and and it's I wouldn't trade for those years. Well 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.280 not only did or your professional hunter, but you were 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:14.119 as a biologist logging your kills exactly. I took all. 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.199 I was very much a note taker, and and I 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.359 would document each animal, Uh, you know, at the distance 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.199 that I shot it, or the trap I caught it in, 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.879 what foot I caught it on, and um, and I 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.560 still have all those that information today from all all 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.879 the way back in the journals. Now I've I've with 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.720 a rifle. I've shot one thousand, seven hundred and sixty 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.719 with the rifle alone, and I was not counting traps. 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:44.000 It was another hundred or sold with traps, eight hundred 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:49.000 and seventy seven bobcats, and so you know, and and 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.199 it's something and it's not something that I'm necessarily proud 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.560 of it. Is just that was a way of life. Yeah, 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:57.520 you know, And and as like I said, as an 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.399 older person, I don't hunt like I used to. I 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.000 have a softer heart then I used to. That's always 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.560 the most interesting storyline about you know, when I think 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.159 about your life, which is this tremendous tapestry of you know, 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:14.160 it's something that's to be admired really and in all 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:16.639 its stages. But when you're when you're back there and 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.119 you're killing these kaiaks for a living. You know, a 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:23.199 lot of people nowadays might say, well, what a terrible thing. 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.280 You're out there and just taking life and wholesale and 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.280 make money and you're selling furs, and you know, in 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.080 the modern day that might be looked at as as 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.240 a negative to the landscape. But describe in that place 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:38.320 in time, you know, how you thought about the animal. 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.040 You respect for it. I mean, I know just from 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.359 knowing you that that's the case I did have and 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.000 I still do. I mean, I'll always have great respect 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.520 for the cord. I think they're very intelligent, uh uh 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.240 an animal that uh they can make those make the 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:55.880 changes with man, whereas the wolf could not. And they 0:22:55.920 --> 0:23:00.199 were pretty well exterminated from Texas. But the cowt is 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:10.000 uh very adaptive and very sharp, and so early on 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:12.800 the one of the reasons that I started taking notes 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.480 was that I just wanted to learn more about them. 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.399 And so the earliest notes came whenever I was in 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.399 uh like a sophomore attach and I wanted to become 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.760 a better code hunter, and so I thought, well, I'm 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:29.800 going to have to understand the feeding habits of code. 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.119 So I conducted a full year of research on my 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:40.040 own by collecting stomach samples, fecal samples, and uh documenting 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:48.200 the areas um separating them by vegetation, topographical, geoogy, geological features. 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.359 And then I received a grant to study another year 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.639 and so um, you know, all of this, this note 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.800 taking has been a very positive thing because to this day, 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:02.720 I'll sit down, I'll get bored some day and just 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.280 sitting with all those notes and go through them just 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:09.199 to remember and and uh, and I'll see things that 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.320 I've forgotten, you know, in in thirty years since I've 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.280 seen them, and it's uh, he just continues to be 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:19.040 a learning process even after all these years. I mean, 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.040 didn't when you were a professional hunter. Back in those 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.240 days you're living in a dugout. Do you remember having 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:27.640 Do you have any of that? Do you sit here 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:31.320 now and your grandfather and time has passed, you look 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:36.120 back and have any remorse for for the animals you killed? Yes, yes, 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:41.160 I do. I do. I I can recall some instances, 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:45.119 especially one one day that that touched my heart into 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:49.240 this day, and that has been forty four years ago, 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:55.560 to this day still tugged at my heart and um. 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:57.879 And it was the cod caught in a trap and 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:01.919 uh and I don't know that that cod he just 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:04.159 he just sat there and just and just looked at me. 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:09.560 I didn't try to fight. And then whenever I I 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:19.879 dispatched it, there there was there was a look of 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.960 helplessness that it knew it was going down. And and 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.520 I sat down in my pickup and cried. After all 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:31.280 those all those animals had taken, that particular animal made 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:34.199 me sit down in my pickup and cry. And to 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:36.160 this day I still think about it. It tugs at 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.800 my heart. And another one in particular is one of 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:42.399 the first really neat shot photographs I'd take him because 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:45.359 at that time I was working on my photography. I 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:47.399 remember I called him in the J two pasture on 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:51.280 the pitch for a real rough country, just savagely rough country. 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:53.880 And it was at the dead end of an old 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.720 bulldozed road and I caught this big mail code and 0:25:57.800 --> 0:25:59.800 I mean he stood up and fought me like a lyon. 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:02.000 I mean I got out of the pick up and 0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:04.600 he was snarling. He was caught up in a number 0:26:04.600 --> 0:26:07.520 four new house trap, no way of getting out. And 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:09.679 I had the greatest respect for that animal. And I 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.640 pulled a camera out and took a photograph of him, 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:14.760 and I mean, he's got his teeth bared and he's 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:17.080 just saying, you know, I know this is it? Bring 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:21.119 it home. And and I still think of that, that animal, 0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:24.320 and that that that bravery that he showed in the 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:28.560 face of death. That picture was selected by Texas Monthly 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:30.840 as one of the greatest pictures of twenty five years 0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:34.680 that they had published a magazine. Wow. Yeah, I mean 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:39.240 that that's a great I find myself. I'm not I 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:40.679 got a lot of years to live, hopefully a lot 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:43.040 of years to hunt. But I find myself examining those 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:46.480 those that relationship with the animals that you kill me 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:50.639 because you said you kill thousands upon thousands of these animals, 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:53.880 But it doesn't mean that you don't have an emotional 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:57.800 connection to him. Uh today And and then, like I said, 0:26:57.800 --> 0:26:59.360 it was just a way of life. Is a way 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:01.639 of life. What you did, it was a way of life. 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:05.400 And and uh and I also I was enjoying just 0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:08.040 being a part of the land. You know, every day, 0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:11.720 the sunsets, the sun rises, the weather changes. All of 0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:15.439 those things still have an impact on me today. I 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:20.000 still refer back to those years and and what I learned, 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:24.919 and in the animal movements, animal patterns, like I can say, like, 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:27.040 for instance, a couple of days ago, I saw a 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:33.040 rattlesnake crawling. Anytime that I start seeing an immediate uh, 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:36.479 an increase in animal movement. When I'm walking in the mornings, 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:41.000 You'll start seeing various creatures. Tracks suddenly appear, and I'll 0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:44.600 tell Slender my wife, we go, weather coming. And I 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:48.680 learned that from those years as a professional hunter, because 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:52.919 I studied, I lived and breathed those habits, those weather changes, 0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:57.000 and how they affected animals behavior and uh and it 0:27:57.160 --> 0:28:00.320 just and it still serves me today. Yeah, that's amazing. 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:03.880 You don't have to become an animal yourself. You're out there, yeah, 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:06.399 not not speaking for some days, and I'm sure you 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:09.000 can feel like that you're getting your own head. Yeah, 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.720 you're getting your own head big time. You better like yourself, 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:15.199 so all I can say you better like, yeah, you 0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:19.080 better enjoy just you know, appreciate you being you, because 0:28:19.119 --> 0:28:22.240 you're gonna learn yourself. Did you I mean, when you 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:24.920 were doing that, did you think, Hey, look, forty years 0:28:24.960 --> 0:28:26.680 from now, I'm gonna look back and there's gonna be 0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:28.440 the golden years. Do you think, man, this is I'm 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:31.320 a crazy son picture for doing this. I mean, was 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:33.840 there a self realization at any point during this? Now 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:41.280 I realized that the days would end? And uh, I 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:43.840 remember drawing on the wall and it's been covered up 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:48.920 since then. It was the last few days of that 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:51.920 first winter, that first winner was the golden winter. That 0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:55.720 was the best because I'd been seemingly all my life 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:58.560 in school. As most guys that go to college realized, 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:02.520 you go from them in my day's first grade to 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:06.880 college and there's no break. And he's like, I've been 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:09.200 going to school forever and I was sick of it 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:12.680 and men going out and being on your own, and 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:16.640 of course immersing yourself in the land with a rifle. 0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:19.760 I always love to hunt. Wasn't that bigger fisherman, But 0:29:19.840 --> 0:29:23.400 I love to hunt and uh and I love just big, 0:29:23.440 --> 0:29:26.880 wide open country with with lots of elbow room. And 0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:29.680 I realized something told me that first winter at the 0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:34.280 end that my days were limited. This freedom would some 0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:37.719 day in this this level of freedom. I mean, I'm 0:29:37.720 --> 0:29:40.000 free and happy today, I'm doing what I want to do. 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:44.760 But back then, man, it was it was really indescribable. 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:48.640 And I drew on the door, on the closet door, 0:29:48.640 --> 0:29:50.960 and that had a little tiny closet in the corner, 0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:53.800 and that that dug out a dug out, and I 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:57.200 drew a cowd in a trap, and in the distance 0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:01.080 were these two prominent hills called Double Mountains. They've been 0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:06.920 they've been mentioned in in uh Ronald Mackenzie's books on 0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:11.160 his fight with the Indians commands in eighteen seventies. They've 0:30:11.160 --> 0:30:14.760 been landmarked for probably ten thousand years. But I could 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:18.600 see him in the distance from my trap line, and 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:21.520 I drew those hills, and I drew this kite in 0:30:21.560 --> 0:30:24.040 a trap, and drag marks leading up to where he 0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:27.200 had caught being caught up and couldn't go any further, 0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:33.080 and I wrote beneath it, uh, something to the effect of, 0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:39.040 to this end, let's see what was it? Uh? I too, 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:43.400 I too shall to realize this in meaning that this 0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:48.920 grand life of freedom will someday be over. And uh 0:30:48.960 --> 0:30:51.000 it got painted over a few years ago, and it 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.160 just makes me sick. I'm thinking about going back out 0:30:54.160 --> 0:30:57.600 there and trying to redraw. Did you ever get a 0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:00.280 photo of it? Or just I did not know? I 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:03.400 did not? Oh? Yeah, I mean that too. It was 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:07.200 to this end, I too shall pass, To this end, 0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:09.720 I too shall pass, And it was a code and 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:13.760 a trap, and knowing that the end was near, and 0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:16.560 seeing that great land or those heels in the distance, 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:20.360 and knowing the freedom and it would be over. And 0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:21.880 that's the way I felt at the end of that 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:25.400 first winter. And it was true. I've never have never 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.240 been able to feel that kind of magic again. I've 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:32.080 had great life, wonderful life of of traveling and seeing 0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:35.240 the land and going on ranches where nobody else hardly 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:38.760 ever goes but with a camera in hand. But there's 0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:41.600 always that restriction now that I didn't have it back then. 0:31:42.040 --> 0:31:49.040 I was young, totally completely healthy, lots of ammunition and 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:50.840 and more land than I knew what to do with. 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:53.080 And I've never known that sense. And of course, now 0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:56.840 with commercial hunting taking over, that land doesn't exist anymore. 0:31:57.200 --> 0:32:00.640 It's gone. I can still go to that cabin and 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:03.640 I'm welcome to the rancher says, hey, go out there 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:06.760 and do whatever you wanna do. You know you're part 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:08.480 of this ranch as well. You think you're part of 0:32:08.480 --> 0:32:11.880 the history. But all that country's lease. And so I 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:15.280 go down there and I work on the cabin. I'll 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.600 pop open a beer, eat some deer sausage, sat down 0:32:18.640 --> 0:32:24.480 on the porch, and remember, and then I'll leave. I mean, 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:28.640 that isn't every person in some way chasing that sense 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:31.320 of freedom? Like not everybody knows exactly how they're gonna 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:34.840 get to it. Believe me, I whenever I give presentations 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:37.240 and I talk about I have one presentation that I 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:39.920 give quite often, and it's called the Evolution of a 0:32:39.960 --> 0:32:43.560 Texas Photographer. And and I give that part of my 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:47.400 life and almost without failed, people come up to me, 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:51.480 older people especially, and say, how I wish I would 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:54.240 have taken the opportunity to do that, Because there's only 0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:57.640 a small window of time. If I give presentations to 0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:03.440 say to a college class, I will. I will every 0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:07.280 time of the time. I will say, when you finish college, 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:12.560 you have this small window of opportunity to do exactly 0:33:12.600 --> 0:33:15.000 what you want to do. And I said, when you 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:19.400 let that window pass, it's over your stab. You become 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:22.280 that's in that established line of life, you know, and 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:26.680 that so called rut, and it's hard to turn back. 0:33:26.960 --> 0:33:29.240 I said, So, if you have any kind of a 0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:33.720 a dream, you know, some heartfelt message that you want 0:33:33.720 --> 0:33:37.560 to go try out for a year, do it. Because 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:40.240 it is sad to talk to those people who will 0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:43.320 will visit with me and say I had that opportunity 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:47.360 and I didn't take it. Yeah, but I can go 0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:52.520 if I pass tomorrow. I have no regrets. I did 0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:54.440 exactly what I wanted to do. And how much of 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:56.680 the rest of your life did that inform Knowing what 0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:59.760 that freedom felt like, knowing what what the land did 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:01.920 for you, and what those animals would provide to you, 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:03.880 how much you know there's I don't think there's any 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:06.160 way you'd be where you are today with exactly I 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:09.040 mean it. It established the basis for what I do today. 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:12.279 Without doubt, I just use a camera and still arrived 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:14.799 from Why I still hunt, you know, I have uh 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:18.279 I I love venison and I'll kill my three or 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:23.239 four deer every winter, and uh I called up last winter, 0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:25.680 I called up a hundred and seventy five cops, but 0:34:26.840 --> 0:34:30.200 them I shot with a camera. I still shoot a 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:35.799 few just to maintain my log my data and entered 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:39.839 my log book so I can keep continuity. But most 0:34:39.840 --> 0:34:42.680 of the time I hunt with camera. Yeah, and that's 0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:46.319 you look back like you're in those days and you 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:49.759 have this. I mean, I think everybody, even me sitting 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:53.919 here now, I'm thinking like how beautiful time that must 0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:57.480 have been. And everybody that listens to this can can 0:34:57.800 --> 0:35:02.080 think about what they're ultimate freedom looks like and what 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.480 what the thing is that would would evoke those feelings 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:07.600 in them, because I think it sounds to me like 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:11.480 you knew during it that it was special and life 0:35:11.040 --> 0:35:14.040 a life defining, but even even as you went on, 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:16.640 you would look back and it became more important as 0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:23.839 it is. I I catch myself so often in times 0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:29.600 of you know, uncertainty, I will just sit down and 0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:32.400 I remember those years perspective. I mean, is that just 0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:34.520 what it gave you right, he gave me. It gave 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:39.760 me perspective, and and it gives me solace today because 0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:44.160 because I revisit and and almost become, you know, go 0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:47.040 back to that time, and just even if it's for 0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:50.840 an hour or so of sitting and reminiscing, I'm happy 0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:54.200 again and I feel that freedom. And I can pick 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:56.680 up that same model line in four Winchester twenty two 0:35:56.719 --> 0:35:59.880 and I shoot and it feels just like it did whenever. 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:03.640 Was just burning that five thousand rounds practicing and nineteen 0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:07.799 seventy four, seventy five, seventy six, I need to burn 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:09.800 out a lot of barrels shooting like that. I burned 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:12.799 out three to forty three barrels in that in that 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:14.520 rifle that I had at the time. I was too 0:36:14.560 --> 0:36:17.040 poored but own anything else but a two forty three, 0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:20.239 that is, that was not a good fur rifle. I 0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.400 learned how to be a real good seamstress or a seamster. 0:36:23.800 --> 0:36:28.200 I could sew very well, and so I burned. But 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:30.480 I burned out three rifles and the two burned out 0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:34.399 three barrels of two forty three. Well, I mean, so 0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:38.319 moving on to the next portion of your life, I heard, 0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:40.120 I heard tell from some people that you were a 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:45.040 wild man sometimes, uh you know, and that and that 0:36:45.320 --> 0:36:49.520 actually that actually sourced from those years of doing that 0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:51.759 type of thing. Of course, you know, I mean I 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:54.840 I became a pilot, and I would fly for ranchers 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:59.040 looking for cattle, and and you know, you'd fly much 0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:02.760 like a bush pilot, low slow all the time, and 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:06.400 and I would do things in a plane and all this, 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.360 all these things combined sort of. There's guys today that 0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:12.600 that I that I won't see for months, but when 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:14.719 they see him, they say, hey, wow, man, what's going on? 0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:20.920 And I go, well, I'm just living you know, well 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:23.239 on that yetie filing there or some some I can't 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.640 remember who said it, but somebody said, my mama said, 0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:29.359 don't don't be hanging out on that one. That was 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:31.759 That was Mike Gibson. He said, my daddy didn't like 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:37.440 me hanging out with you because because I, even as 0:37:37.480 --> 0:37:42.200 a teenager, I pretty well danced my own drummer and 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:47.200 um and as and his father was pretty established, you know, 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:50.439 you know in in this is the way life should 0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:53.960 be a B C. D. And I wasn't following that. 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:58.280 I was jumping from A to E and and he 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:02.160 he didn't want his son going A to E. And 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:05.239 so it was the steps. So that time in your 0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:08.760 life you were just doing random You were still hunting, obviously, 0:38:09.120 --> 0:38:11.719 And when was it this post when you got out 0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:16.160 of being a professional hunter trapper of the dugout right 0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:18.600 just described that next portion of your well. I I 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:22.000 was married nineteen seventy eight, when I was just essamisally 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.040 twenty eight years old. I got married first time, hopefully, 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:29.440 hopefully this might slender, will be my last one. I 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:33.160 don't let me go. No, I get beat up if 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:35.759 I try to go anywhere. But it sounds like a 0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:40.600 bad idea. Yeah, but uh, but I continued. I continued 0:38:40.680 --> 0:38:44.440 hunting and trapping. But I was also working on on 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:48.720 my photography. I I in nineteen seventy but nineteen seventy six, 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.560 I was thinking that I would probably like to do 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:57.160 some editorial photography, and so I started submitting to magazines 0:38:57.239 --> 0:39:00.120 and got him kicked back and started realizing what I 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:02.719 needed to do in the level of excellence that I 0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:06.640 need to achieve in order to be considered a viable 0:39:06.719 --> 0:39:11.200 photographer and for people to be depended on magazines, And 0:39:11.280 --> 0:39:14.440 so I finally broke in in nineteen seventy eight, and 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:18.000 the more I photographed, the less I hunted, and uh. 0:39:18.040 --> 0:39:20.440 And that was a period in the nineteen nineties that, uh, 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:23.920 my log books were pretty thin because I was really 0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:27.000 I had to my two sons at the time, and 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:30.600 I was really pushing the envelope, you know, traveling a lot, 0:39:30.960 --> 0:39:34.759 a whole lot. I look back at at my calendars 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:36.719 and and I don't know how I did it. I 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:38.799 don't know how I stood it because I was going 0:39:38.960 --> 0:39:42.520 all the time, book signings, you know, doing radio TV 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:46.960 interview to San Antonio, Houston, Austin, you know, Avarella, just 0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:50.319 all around and uh, and then traveling all over the 0:39:50.360 --> 0:39:55.880 state and shooting for the for various book projects and um. 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:58.640 And then then I then I began to realize I 0:39:58.680 --> 0:40:01.520 missed my hunting, and so now I try to balance 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:05.600 it out a little bit. Although photography does take the heavier, 0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:08.719 heavier load. Yeah, maybe he skipped over the story. I 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:10.759 wanted to make sure we recover. Now you you had 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:13.920 a little plane crash one time. Yeah, I don't want 0:40:13.920 --> 0:40:18.279 to skip over that. But yeah, it's a gym. Yeah, 0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:22.560 well I was I was looking for a cattle. Uh, 0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:25.319 my brother had leased some land or actually he owned 0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:27.520 some landing, and he had a couple of heifers missing, 0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:30.439 and so he asked me if I if I would 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:33.279 take plane and go over and look look for him. 0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:36.720 And I was flying low and slow with the brush 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.839 and decided finally that that I couldn't I couldn't get 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:42.240 them located. They must have gotten out into another onto 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:45.879 another ranch. And so I had climbed out to about 0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:47.799 a hundred and fifty feet and I was banking and 0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:50.320 headed back to the airport and my engine just died, 0:40:52.360 --> 0:40:57.520 just just it was just like silence, and I just 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:03.880 I was remembered so vividly thinking this didn't happen. I 0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:06.680 cannot get this engine started. I mean, I'm too low. 0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:11.040 Besides that you had the proper plane off, and so 0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:16.000 uh instantly I went into survival mode. My my flight 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:18.319 instructor was an O B twenty four pilot from World 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:23.759 War Two, and he pounded into my head airspeed airspeed, airspeed, 0:41:24.040 --> 0:41:27.600 airspeed equates to life, and so I nosed it over 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:30.440 and I started looking for a place to land, and 0:41:30.480 --> 0:41:33.560 I knew it was gonna be bad, but but I 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:36.280 can remember that still remember vividly the whistling of wind, 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:40.399 the sound of silence except for the wind, and me 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:45.000 frantically thinking how can I get out of this alive? 0:41:46.080 --> 0:41:48.799 And to the right, to the left was where I 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:50.880 wanted to land into the wind, but there were two 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:52.959 barb war fences, and I could tell by my ready 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:55.520 descent that I was going to take these two fences. 0:41:55.520 --> 0:41:58.360 Out in front of me was a wall of mesquite, 0:41:58.400 --> 0:41:59.960 and I didn't want to drive a me skit tree 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:02.600 through my through my chest. And to the to the 0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:05.200 right of me, down wind, which is where I didn't 0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:07.240 want to go because I'd be a built an air speed, 0:42:08.640 --> 0:42:12.719 was a hilltop that had been freshly deep broke what 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:16.279 they called big ox, which you have clods, you know 0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:19.080 that way fifty pounds sixty pounds, And I knew that 0:42:19.080 --> 0:42:21.719 that was gonna be a rough run, but I chose that, 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:25.839 and so I banked it over very steep, built up 0:42:25.880 --> 0:42:28.839 my airspeed, did a ninety degree banking. As I leveled out, 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.440 I was about ten ft above the ground. And my 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:33.879 big plan, my big battle plan, was to just pull 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:36.560 the nose up as high as I could and barely 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:39.680 flopp in. But I was I was really moving pretty 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:43.239 quickly a ground speed with a tail wind, and all 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.400 I remember was a bang. And the next thing I remember, 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:48.560 I was hanging upside down the plane in cart wheel 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:52.320 and uh. And I could hear gas spewing as it 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:54.799 run onto the engine, and I thought, I gotta get 0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:57.200 out of here. I'm gonna burn up. So I grabbed 0:42:57.200 --> 0:42:59.800 my shoulder harness and clicked it loose, fell out against 0:42:59.840 --> 0:43:01.919 the roof of the plane, rolled out on the wing, 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:06.520 and I took off running. Plane didn't burn. But uh, 0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:10.359 but that was that was a very memorable experience. But 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:14.320 as I was mentioned to you earlier, I would suggest 0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:19.040 people who go outdoors and especially engaged in dangerous thing 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:25.160 read a book called Deep Survival, Deep Survival. That book 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:31.799 explains why I survived. And it was the preparation. The 0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:34.640 preparation of that old be twenty four pilot taught me, 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:38.320 who spent three years of his life in a German 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:43.080 PLW camp. But he pounded in my head, this is 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:46.480 the way you survive in a plant, whether you're hunting 0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:50.200 where your mountain clapping, whether you're flying where you're skinning 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:56.839 a deer. Preparation and the ability to change at a 0:43:56.920 --> 0:44:00.840 moment's notice, not stick to the battle plan, not go 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:03.959 I got to go A, B, C D. I can 0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:07.640 go from A to E in order to survive. And 0:44:07.719 --> 0:44:10.600 that's what kept me alive. Well. And he said, you're 0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:13.200 describing all these options. I'm sure that wasn't ten minutes. 0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:17.200 You had to just seconds. You're talking about some boom boom. 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:19.360 You had to make that decision, absolutely, and didn't you 0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:21.120 just walk out to the road, hitchhight and go home. 0:44:21.280 --> 0:44:23.279 I walked out to the highway and hitchtight. And the 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:26.200 cowboy picked me up, who knew me, and said, do 0:44:26.200 --> 0:44:28.200 you have a flat And I said, no, I plane 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:31.799 crash and he I thought, he nearly ran off the road. 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:35.000 He looked at me and go you okay? I said, yeah, 0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:38.600 I just need to go home. I'll get back to 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:41.320 that plane when it back that plane one of these days. 0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:48.719 I want to also talk about when you became a father, right, 0:44:48.800 --> 0:44:52.160 I mean, you had a a marriage dissolved, which happens 0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:55.520 to many many people. But but coming to father your 0:44:55.520 --> 0:45:00.040 two boys, like when the how old are you and 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:02.120 that happened? How old were you when they were born? 0:45:02.719 --> 0:45:07.200 I was, let's see, eighty three. I was thirty Uh, 0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:10.719 the way you might see see eighty three. So yeah, 0:45:10.800 --> 0:45:13.960 I was thirty three. I was thirty three when I 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:16.320 had my first son. In thirty four in my second, 0:45:16.960 --> 0:45:20.759 which it's similar to my age. And and hopefully my 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:23.160 wife thinks that's the child output you would like to have. 0:45:23.360 --> 0:45:26.399 She told me, she told me on the far came 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:28.720 up yourself, what do you think about having four boys? 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:34.160 I said, well, we got one. Let's go one at 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:38.759 a time, exactly exactly. Blessing that that was the That 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:41.759 was the greatest blessing of my life. Yeah, they having 0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:44.359 those two boys. I I've told so many people that 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:48.520 young people who and I was one of them who go, 0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:50.960 you know, I'm not gonna have any children. You know, 0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:53.480 I think that I know what love is. You do 0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:55.920 not know. And you know, as you know, you do 0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:58.840 not know the definition of love until you hear that 0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:03.080 little child cry when he's born. That's when you know 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:06.640 this is what love is all about. And I raised 0:46:06.640 --> 0:46:10.360 my boys like my parents raised me, with a loose rein. 0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:15.560 Taught him how to trap. Uh. Didn't really want them 0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:18.279 to go into cowboy and so much. And they did, 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:21.000 and they did for a while. They didn't go to college. 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.200 They didn't want to go to college, and I respected that. Um. 0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:27.279 I realized now that not everybody needs to go to 0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:32.120 college to be wildly successful, because both my boys are 0:46:32.760 --> 0:46:37.600 very successful and uh and it's just a work ethic. 0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:40.960 The one thing that I was able to teach them 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:44.160 is a work ethic. Those boys started early, very early, 0:46:44.200 --> 0:46:50.480 working and uh. And I when their mother left, I 0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:52.240 told him that we were gonna have to stick together. 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:54.680 They had a job to do. I was gonna be 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.360 on the road and we needed to be a team. 0:46:57.480 --> 0:47:00.759 And they rose to the occasion. Yeah. I mean that 0:47:00.840 --> 0:47:04.200 was most of their lives. You know, you raised them 0:47:04.200 --> 0:47:09.600 by yourself. Uh well, uh, it's well not most They 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:13.480 were like you know, thirteen in in fourteen something like that. Whatever. 0:47:16.120 --> 0:47:19.360 That was a tough time. That was that was tough. 0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:22.640 That was that was tough. Um. Of course there was 0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:26.319 the stigma of the divorce. I didn't like that. UM, 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:29.040 but I realized in the long run later that it 0:47:29.120 --> 0:47:32.360 was the best thing, because you know, nobody wants to 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:36.600 get a divorce. That that's hard, especially with children. UM. 0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:42.200 I have I have. I have apologized to my boys 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:46.800 numerous times, wishing that they had not had to see 0:47:46.920 --> 0:47:51.520 what they saw, the arguments, you know, the the strife, 0:47:51.600 --> 0:47:56.799 the stress, and their response was very mature. They said, Dad, 0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:00.439 we understood y'all just weren't meant for each other. And 0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:02.600 I thank god that they look they look at it 0:48:02.719 --> 0:48:06.000 like that and they realized that we weren't. But I 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:11.080 am thankful too that she and I were married because 0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:16.480 I have my boys. Yeah, I'm thankful for that. But 0:48:16.480 --> 0:48:18.759 but I can tell you that, uh, and I know 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:23.160 this may sound corny, that if everybody could find a 0:48:23.239 --> 0:48:30.160 woman like my cylinder, there would be no divorces. And 0:48:30.200 --> 0:48:33.239 I and I and I did not. I was not 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:38.640 looking to find anyone. I was burned out, you know. 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:41.480 I would have been married twenty years and a lot 0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:45.759 of strife and stress trying to build up my photography 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:51.840 were we didn't have a lot. It was very tough. Um. 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:54.480 But when I met her, I realized that I that 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.640 I had met a jewel. Yeah she is that she 0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:04.080 is the challenge of raising those boys. And in this country, 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:06.920 I mean both of them still live. I mean Peyton 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:08.920 lives right down the street. He lives down the street. 0:49:08.920 --> 0:49:13.120 Of course. Hunters a horse trainer at at near Weatherford 0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:19.239 at Peaster and uh, highly highly successful, very successful young man. 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:24.160 Um world renowned to that world renowned he is. And 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:26.480 so you know you raise him on a ranch. You're 0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:28.960 raised them much like you did. They were on horseback, 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:32.640 they were hunting with dad. They were probably reloading bullets 0:49:32.640 --> 0:49:37.080 and working over action rifles and and uh it took right. 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:39.600 I mean we were talking about breakfast again in this morning, 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:42.799 like you the challenge of raising your kids and this 0:49:43.440 --> 0:49:45.920 my son, and this environment and what I'll have to 0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:51.280 face with technology, with the changing culture, with the liberal 0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:53.880 nature of a lot of our cities and people and 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:57.239 things that that are challenging. Um. Based on the way 0:49:57.280 --> 0:49:58.800 that you grew up and your kids grew up, I 0:49:58.840 --> 0:50:02.640 mean what you look back at that? And oh well, 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:04.839 I just kept thinking it took. I mean you talked 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:08.000 to his boys away to live. They live life their 0:50:08.040 --> 0:50:11.319 way much like you've lived, George. And it was it's 0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:13.880 independence that I that I taught him, like for instance, 0:50:13.880 --> 0:50:18.600 a good a good uh story here is when paid was, 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:23.520 you know, maybe seventeen sixteen, and he came in one 0:50:23.600 --> 0:50:27.800 day and said it was like February, early February, late January, 0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:30.920 and uh, and he wanted to buy a pickup and 0:50:31.000 --> 0:50:34.719 don't use pickup. And I couldn't afford to buy the 0:50:34.719 --> 0:50:38.080 pickup for him. That just just what it was. I'm 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:42.440 struggling And I said, uh, he said, Dad, there's not 0:50:42.480 --> 0:50:44.719 any there's not any day work going on. He said, 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:47.120 I need I need this much money to make a 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:49.719 down payment, just pick up. I said, well, i'll tell 0:50:49.719 --> 0:50:53.640 you what. I can't help you, but there's the fur 0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:55.839 market is up a little and I'll show you how 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:59.279 to trap. And I took him out and showed him 0:50:59.760 --> 0:51:02.359 where to set traps, how to how to read sign 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:06.520 on bobcats. And in one month he caught like twenty 0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:10.240 eight bobcats, enough to make a down payment on his pickup. 0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:14.160 And I said, now you're gonna skin him too. And 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:15.920 there's a couple of times he called said hey, Dad, 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:17.640 I'm busy. Can you skin a cat? I said no, 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:21.120 he'll be here waiting for you. You gotta do it yourself. 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:27.040 I've skinned enough. And it was teaching the boy's responsibility 0:51:27.320 --> 0:51:30.000 and that that they needed to work, you know, And 0:51:30.040 --> 0:51:32.960 it was it was nothing wrong with working hard. It 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:38.240 was nothing wrong with sacrificing and and taking that extra 0:51:38.280 --> 0:51:40.560 time when you got in although you were tired, you 0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:43.319 still had a job to do before you turned in 0:51:43.320 --> 0:51:46.560 for the night. And it was a positive thing all 0:51:46.600 --> 0:51:48.759 the way, all the way around. It was good for 0:51:48.840 --> 0:51:52.160 them in the long haul as as men today and 0:51:52.200 --> 0:51:56.920 who they are and there their productivity and the respect 0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:01.680 that they command with other people, and everybody knows him 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:04.120 and and respects them. I mean, we've all got an 0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:07.920 enemy here and there, but by and large, yeah, I 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:11.760 found that traveling around that the unique nature of somebody 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:14.520 that's raising that environment. We had another I had another 0:52:14.520 --> 0:52:17.879 guy named fred Eikler on the podcast UM some months ago. 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:19.800 I was out turkey hunting his place in Colorado. He 0:52:19.840 --> 0:52:22.000 lives on a ranch, his kids grow up much like 0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:26.360 yours did, and his son, I think is probably thirteen 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:30.200 or fourteen, maybe a little younger than that even Um, 0:52:30.239 --> 0:52:32.040 but the young man walks right up to you, shakes 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:34.880 your hand, looks you square dead nuts in the eye 0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:37.640 right and says it was a pleasure to meet you. 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:41.799 And sure he means it. He's eleven years old. And 0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:45.880 that struck me, as you know his father and his parents. 0:52:45.880 --> 0:52:51.480 But his environment is that you get up in the morning, chores, chickens, goats, 0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:56.960 run horseback right, this, that and and that always struck me. 0:52:57.080 --> 0:52:59.640 And you know and pay to that course. Hunter and 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:03.200 and Alicia don't have children yet, but Pete has three 0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:08.680 and to the daughter and the son, uh eleven and ten. 0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:14.439 I believe they have their chores every day. It's clean 0:53:14.520 --> 0:53:18.000 out the horse stalls, feed the dogs, water the dogs, 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:22.600 water the horses. Every day. They have these chores. And 0:53:22.640 --> 0:53:26.000 I was asking, Uh, Tristan the little boy the other 0:53:26.040 --> 0:53:29.239 day when I took him about hunting. I asked him 0:53:29.280 --> 0:53:31.960 if he liked these chores, doing his chores. He said, oh, 0:53:32.040 --> 0:53:34.919 not really. And I said, but those chores are good 0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:38.479 for you. They're teaching you a lesson everybody. I said, 0:53:39.360 --> 0:53:43.319 when when Pappy that's me and Uncle Rick that's my brother. 0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:46.000 When we were little in your age, we had our chores. 0:53:46.160 --> 0:53:48.600 We gathered eggs, we cleaned out the barn, we cleaned 0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:51.040 out the chicken pan and it was good for us. 0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:54.759 And this is good for you and and it's and 0:53:54.800 --> 0:53:58.680 it's unfortunate that more parents don't expect that out of 0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:02.359 their children. They try to keep trying to insulate your 0:54:02.440 --> 0:54:06.799 children from that. And that's wrong. I'm sorry, that's wrong. Yeah, 0:54:06.840 --> 0:54:08.880 I mean it shows in the way. You know, I 0:54:08.920 --> 0:54:11.920 hate to make it up. It's not because there's definitely 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.319 parents that live in urban environments that do things like that, 0:54:14.400 --> 0:54:16.080 and that's that that I don't want to make it 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:18.400 sound like that, but I just I've found in travel 0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:21.600 around and hunting and meeting young folks that live in 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:26.080 small town environments, that live in places where work is required, 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:28.319 you couldn't just like you, you know, you wake up 0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:32.040 on on a ranch and sleep in and for a 0:54:32.040 --> 0:54:34.359 couple of days just watch TV and take the weekend off. 0:54:34.560 --> 0:54:38.480 Next thing, you know, yeah, things aren't going life's not 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:41.080 going away exactly. And so I'm not sure if it's 0:54:41.120 --> 0:54:43.520 connected to that or just connected to the culture and 0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:45.920 these in small towns and the connection to people in 0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:48.640 the land and all that. I'm not sure. I wonder 0:54:48.680 --> 0:54:50.600 what your opinion on that is, because it's it's just 0:54:50.640 --> 0:54:54.920 has always struck me that the direct nature of of 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.040 children raised in that in that environment, and then meeting 0:54:58.160 --> 0:55:02.360 sometimes meeting kids that are raised with iPad um raised 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:04.919 iPads and sleeping in in the summertime, you know, yeah, 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:07.319 it's when you're when you're I think, in the in 0:55:07.360 --> 0:55:10.640 the environment that uh, that defines this part of the country, 0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:14.680 you know, a ranching culture. Uh. You know, kids are 0:55:16.320 --> 0:55:20.759 raised knowing that they have to work and I know, 0:55:20.840 --> 0:55:26.759 you know learning you know, being uh computer individual. You know, 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:31.600 everybody has to be somebody and you gotta have that 0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:37.600 kind of person. But two, it would not hurt those 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:42.160 kids to go and get a job sacking groceries and 0:55:42.239 --> 0:55:47.120 knowing they have to be there at seven thirty to 0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:50.240 clock in and they have to work until this period 0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:54.280 of time. Then they can go and study their computers 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:59.680 and you know, and there whatever you know, and and 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:02.919 be that and pursue the job of career that they want. 0:56:03.440 --> 0:56:07.839 But there's nothing wrong with learning to be responsible as 0:56:07.880 --> 0:56:10.759 a young person. And you're just talking about the handshake. 0:56:11.000 --> 0:56:14.120 My dad taught my brother, and I remember it vividly. 0:56:14.960 --> 0:56:17.360 You shake hands with a man, you look him in 0:56:17.400 --> 0:56:20.560 the face, and you squeeze his fist. And old Daddy 0:56:20.840 --> 0:56:26.120 born nineteen eighteen. Uh sadly tragically lost him when he 0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:29.440 was sixty five years old. But man, he grabbed us 0:56:29.520 --> 0:56:30.960 by the hand. He said, now you look at me 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:33.239 and you shake my hand, you squeeze. I talked my 0:56:33.280 --> 0:56:36.839 boys the same way, and to this, I mean, and 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:40.759 he is teaching. They're his children to do the same thing. 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:46.560 And that's that's good. And and and and Pete's son 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:48.440 even though Peate is a is a man of the 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:52.080 land like I was raised and my brother was raised. 0:56:53.400 --> 0:56:57.680 And and hunter he's more he's he's he dips in 0:56:57.719 --> 0:56:59.719 and out. He lives close to Dallas, and you know 0:56:59.840 --> 0:57:02.040 he can deal with both. But pat is you know, 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:06.240 he trains horses, but as a hunting service, he trains dogs. 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:11.479 And and he's more of your of your from the land. 0:57:11.920 --> 0:57:16.360 But his son wants to be like a marine biologist. 0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:23.680 Brilliant young man uh into into making model airplanes and 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:29.080 studying aerodynamics. It takes my college books that I in 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:33.400 parasitology and comparative anatomy, and those are the books he 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:37.760 looked likes to read at eleven years of age. And 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:40.919 I stressed to him, if this is what you want 0:57:40.920 --> 0:57:45.720 to do, do it, but do your chores. Do your chores, 0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:50.400 because you will take you will take those values that 0:57:50.480 --> 0:57:54.600 work ethic into whatever field that you choose, whether it's 0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:58.600 computer science, whether it's marine biology, whether it's being a 0:57:58.640 --> 0:58:01.960 math teacher, or whether it's being a pilot. You're gonna 0:58:02.000 --> 0:58:05.360 take those work ethics and apply it. Yeah, I mean 0:58:05.360 --> 0:58:07.640 it's discipline, right this, I mean that seems to be. 0:58:08.920 --> 0:58:10.440 You know, every once in a while, I wake up 0:58:10.440 --> 0:58:12.400 in the morning and think, man, you know, I could 0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:15.680 sleep in. Man, my kid was up all night, or 0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:17.720 I was up doing this, or I worked worked late. 0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:20.720 I'll sleep in and I think about disci plane like 0:58:20.840 --> 0:58:24.000 if you if you do things when you rather not 0:58:24.120 --> 0:58:27.200 do them, that's the definition of success. That's that's it. 0:58:27.640 --> 0:58:29.520 That's it. And I and I and when I give 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:34.440 this presentation of evolution with a photographer, I talked about 0:58:35.960 --> 0:58:39.320 being raised on ranch, being required to do a job, 0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:42.440 and how it could have been so easy for me 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:45.880 once I got out of college and moved out there 0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:48.840 to that, to that dugout. I could have slept in. 0:58:50.040 --> 0:58:53.040 I can win. Man is cold outside and as far 0:58:53.160 --> 0:58:57.760 as going and so comfortable with no. I knew that 0:58:57.880 --> 0:59:00.000 I had to get up and I had fifth years, 0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:02.960 six few miles of rough country that to to cover. 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:06.600 I knew that I needed to have four animal units 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:10.080 today because I had a college loan payment to go, 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:13.320 I had pick up payments, I had groceries to buy, 0:59:13.480 --> 0:59:15.280 you know, and I needed a little extra you know, 0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:20.320 folding cash and and UH, but it was it was 0:59:20.360 --> 0:59:23.320 what I learned when I was a young kid. How 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:26.200 many days in your life have you worked for someone else? 0:59:27.840 --> 0:59:31.360 I've never. I've never had a steady job. It's always 0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:33.880 been a part time. I worked for the Forest Department 0:59:33.960 --> 0:59:40.360 once UH from seven and from UH September one November one, 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:44.800 in nineteen seventy five. It's a long tenure, a long 0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:47.800 tenure in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and in Las Vegas, 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:51.000 New Mexico, and came back and we hit the trap 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:53.520 line again. And then I worked as a crop adjuster 0:59:53.680 --> 0:59:59.560 during the summer. UH. Whenever I was in college, I 0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:02.760 worked in the summertime for the Highway Department, and in 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:06.120 the afternoons after I got off work, I weld it 1:00:06.200 --> 1:00:09.800 to make extra money so I wouldn't have to float alone. 1:00:09.840 --> 1:00:11.280 I didn't get to have to have to float alone 1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:13.400 for college until I was to my last semester and 1:00:13.440 --> 1:00:16.360 as a senior. But but I would hold down two 1:00:16.440 --> 1:00:19.720 jobs in the summer and so I could so I could, 1:00:19.840 --> 1:00:22.280 UH could study and and go to school and not 1:00:22.360 --> 1:00:24.280 have to work in the wintertime. And now I work 1:00:24.360 --> 1:00:26.720 on weekends. I come on and work and when the 1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:29.720 first got up in seventy three, I came home and 1:00:29.800 --> 1:00:32.520 hunted on weekends because I could make more trapping and 1:00:32.640 --> 1:00:36.800 hunting coves and working cattle. See that It gets me 1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:40.360 now because you know people working these corporations, right, I mean, 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:42.240 you get to be working for somebody else, and I 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:45.560 don't know the freedom and the discipline it takes to 1:00:45.680 --> 1:00:47.800 be like I can't you know, I gotta be work 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:50.520 at eight o'clock and my boss is happy. Well, you 1:00:50.560 --> 1:00:52.360 get up in the morning at seven o'clock and start 1:00:52.440 --> 1:00:56.960 working your bosses yourself. Yeah, you know, you never know anything. 1:00:57.160 --> 1:00:58.920 And you and you have you have great years, and 1:00:58.920 --> 1:01:03.520 you have terrible years. That's just that's just working for yourself. Um. 1:01:03.560 --> 1:01:05.960 You know the great years wonderful of terrible years. You 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:08.320 know they're hungry and you know you have to do 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:13.200 without um and and and and you if some people 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:15.720 think some people think, well you're past that, well you're not. 1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:20.200 You never get past the uh there. It's just like 1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:22.920 a cowd I compare my life a lot to the 1:01:22.960 --> 1:01:27.120 life of a coat. You know, the season's come and 1:01:27.160 --> 1:01:30.600 then in September, you know I'm eating I'm eating good 1:01:30.600 --> 1:01:35.200 on cedar berries. January comes and and I'm eating the 1:01:35.280 --> 1:01:37.360 last of the cedar berries and things are getting tough, 1:01:38.160 --> 1:01:40.120 and things don't get good to the low berry crop 1:01:40.240 --> 1:01:42.600 comes on in April, and I'm eating good and then 1:01:42.640 --> 1:01:45.600 I go to grasshoppers and skip beans and cactus apples. 1:01:46.120 --> 1:01:48.560 You know, there are hard times and there's good times, 1:01:49.480 --> 1:01:52.640 and so you just you just learned to to to 1:01:52.760 --> 1:01:54.920 deal with it. Yeah, let's in your Life's not to 1:01:54.920 --> 1:01:57.240 find by either one of those things. You life to 1:01:57.240 --> 1:02:00.480 find by your discipline. Throughout discipline, and the happens with 1:02:00.560 --> 1:02:03.800 what you're doing. If you're satisfied and you go you 1:02:03.840 --> 1:02:05.480 go home at night and go to bed, and you 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:09.600 feel good about the day you've done. Will Yeah, Well, 1:02:09.680 --> 1:02:11.400 I mean one of the things you've been most successful 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:13.800 at it's photography, right, you talked about a little bit. 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:18.080 So you decided after college and after your time as 1:02:18.120 --> 1:02:22.760 a as a hunter professionally so that you want to 1:02:22.760 --> 1:02:25.000 start dabbling around with the camera and figuring it out. 1:02:26.280 --> 1:02:29.000 And this is in the seventies or eighties, seventies whenever 1:02:29.040 --> 1:02:32.520 I started aspiring, and then it was like nineteen seventy 1:02:32.560 --> 1:02:35.680 eight is when I first got published in both in 1:02:35.760 --> 1:02:38.080 parks and Wildife and National Wife about the same month. 1:02:38.160 --> 1:02:40.600 It might have been a month apart. And of course 1:02:40.720 --> 1:02:44.240 once as you will know, once you get published, it's like, 1:02:45.040 --> 1:02:47.160 I love this, you know, I really want to do 1:02:47.240 --> 1:02:51.440 more of this. And then night one bro and actually 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:54.959 nineteen eighty a Rooken the Field and stream eighty one 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:59.400 is was that that that transitional year when I had 1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:02.160 three over his three national covers one month, and I 1:03:02.200 --> 1:03:05.720 realized then that that I stood a chance. But I 1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:09.400 was still holding down another job in the summertime, photographing 1:03:09.400 --> 1:03:14.560 in the winter, and I remember vividly in that I 1:03:14.640 --> 1:03:17.120 was driving a diesel truck in the summer for a 1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:20.760 friend of mine and I received the letter from Lionel 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:24.040 app Well at Sports of Field and he said, You've 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:30.840 been chosen as one of five America's like new photographers, 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:36.680 UM kind of the photography of the future, photographer the future, 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:41.640 and that we wanted to we want to to uh 1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:45.480 to uh write a story, you know, devoted magazine issue 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:48.800 to you guys. And I realized, then, you know what, 1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:53.280 I may have something going on here, and he wrote 1:03:53.280 --> 1:03:55.400 that piece. I still have it today. The new Breed 1:03:56.000 --> 1:04:01.720 they called the New Breed and UM and then um 1:04:02.360 --> 1:04:06.320 published my first book in ninety three, Roadrunners, which was 1:04:06.360 --> 1:04:10.480 an immediate success. Uh. The images were published all over 1:04:10.520 --> 1:04:13.560 the world. UH did a ten page spread for a 1:04:13.560 --> 1:04:18.360 Smithsonian magazine. UH, did a big spread for a Career 1:04:18.440 --> 1:04:24.600 Geo German magazine, French magazines. And then I received an 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:28.440 award for that magazine. I forgot what it was out 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:32.480 of San Antonio. And then things started popping, you know, 1:04:32.560 --> 1:04:40.440 things started rolling. I got seven I was voted as uh, 1:04:40.520 --> 1:04:43.280 what was it? An outstanding a lum at Tech. I 1:04:43.360 --> 1:04:48.160 was not a great student, I'll admit that. And I 1:04:48.280 --> 1:04:50.800 questioned why I was given that, and they said, it's 1:04:50.800 --> 1:04:52.920 not what you did with you're in school, that's what 1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:56.200 you accomplished when you're out of school. And so then 1:04:56.240 --> 1:05:03.880 in I got distinguished Alum at Tech. Uh uh the 1:05:03.880 --> 1:05:07.200 State Photographer of Texas from George W. Bush, the governor, 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:11.000 then seven fifth of the legislature, and then things just 1:05:11.040 --> 1:05:15.880 started going. Most recently in February of two thousand and eighteen, 1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:19.880 Field and Stream name is one of ten American outdoor 1:05:20.000 --> 1:05:24.760 Legends because of my my predator hunting. I also in 1:05:24.960 --> 1:05:33.120 April received the Leaving Legacy Award from the It's a 1:05:33.120 --> 1:05:37.280 foundation out of Corpus Christie. It's a big deal. I 1:05:37.320 --> 1:05:38.960 didn't know it's such a big deal till I went, 1:05:39.000 --> 1:05:40.840 and he was like, this is big. There's only three 1:05:40.840 --> 1:05:44.440 people before me it received, and all of them artists, 1:05:44.440 --> 1:05:50.000 and what it is. It's art inspiring others to be 1:05:50.960 --> 1:05:55.320 interested in conservation the art that you produce. And that 1:05:55.400 --> 1:05:58.320 was the reason the other three guys. Well, I mean 1:05:58.320 --> 1:06:00.720 you take that all back, all the things you've achieved 1:06:01.200 --> 1:06:04.200 in the even later years, but those first covers and 1:06:04.200 --> 1:06:07.520 all that stuff, and prior to that was a stack 1:06:07.600 --> 1:06:11.320 of rejection with and I still have them. I still 1:06:11.360 --> 1:06:14.680 have them to read them. Yeah, and I don't I 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:17.760 don't submit that much anymore. It's mostly I do books 1:06:17.800 --> 1:06:20.640 sometime in magazine we're calling them need images, and I'll 1:06:20.640 --> 1:06:22.960 publish the story or something here and there. And I 1:06:23.040 --> 1:06:26.480 like I enjoy writing especially about kayle my years as 1:06:26.520 --> 1:06:32.640 Kyle Hunting. I enjoyed doing that. Uh but uh um, 1:06:32.680 --> 1:06:35.360 But I still have those rejections lad. In fact, I 1:06:35.520 --> 1:06:38.520 read one too to the guy who gave it to me, 1:06:38.560 --> 1:06:42.120 A nineteen and seventy eight and seventy seven Bill Reaves 1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:45.120 at parts twelve, and he said, you actually kept that 1:06:45.200 --> 1:06:49.439 letter and I said, Bill, I've got them all. Yeah. 1:06:49.440 --> 1:06:53.440 I mean, you think about those rejections and then it 1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:55.280 would be interesting to hear because I know you talked 1:06:55.280 --> 1:06:57.920 about and you're one of your presentations about you never 1:06:58.000 --> 1:07:01.400 knew there was a state photographer Tex but you just 1:07:01.440 --> 1:07:03.480 worked and you worked and you worked, that worked, and 1:07:03.520 --> 1:07:06.200 then all of a sudden somebody said you are that, 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:09.000 and you're like that, that's nice. That's another lesson that 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:11.840 I tried to to instill in people whenever I give 1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:15.160 a presentation, is that if you love what you do, 1:07:16.280 --> 1:07:19.280 if you work from the heart, if it if you 1:07:19.400 --> 1:07:22.160 if it comes from the soul, then the good things 1:07:22.160 --> 1:07:26.840 will happen. Uh. But don't don't set in the beginning. 1:07:26.880 --> 1:07:28.960 Don't say well I want to be this, I want 1:07:28.960 --> 1:07:32.880 to be that. Just work and love what you do 1:07:34.120 --> 1:07:37.280 and if it was meant to be those those other 1:07:37.320 --> 1:07:41.560 things will come, those accolades, whatever is out there, they will, 1:07:41.600 --> 1:07:43.840 they will come about. Well, like you said, there's certainly 1:07:43.840 --> 1:07:47.360 struggles in your career and constantly, you know where you 1:07:47.520 --> 1:07:49.800 have two kids and you're trying to make ends, meeting 1:07:50.320 --> 1:07:53.280 you gotta stacker rejection letters and you know what do 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:55.200 you do do you quit? You go get a nine 1:07:55.240 --> 1:07:58.080 to five, and sometimes you think about it. You go, 1:07:58.160 --> 1:08:00.600 you know, there must be an easier way, and then 1:08:00.640 --> 1:08:03.080 you think, jeez, I don't want to live like that. 1:08:03.920 --> 1:08:05.880 I want to I want to continue being free, being 1:08:05.880 --> 1:08:09.880 able to roam over this old hardass country here and 1:08:09.920 --> 1:08:12.000 the and the rolling plains of Texas called a big 1:08:12.040 --> 1:08:16.200 empty and and mix with the cowboys, go out here 1:08:16.240 --> 1:08:18.479 on these big canyons early in the morning and watch 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:21.439 the fall rise from the canyon floor. I want to 1:08:21.439 --> 1:08:22.680 see that. I want to be able to see that 1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:26.080 all the time. And so I'm willing to sacrifice and 1:08:26.160 --> 1:08:27.880 able to do that, but to be able to do 1:08:27.920 --> 1:08:30.760 that and to work hard for it. So your photography, 1:08:30.960 --> 1:08:33.160 it's an art, right, I mean, you're you're an artist. 1:08:33.560 --> 1:08:35.599 Describe what that that art means to you, like kind 1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:38.360 of how you developed your style and your well, your 1:08:38.479 --> 1:08:42.760 functionality of h When I was trapping, when I was 1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:47.479 living out there on the Pitchfork, I was always fascinated 1:08:47.520 --> 1:08:51.000 by the light playing on those cliffs. And in one 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:56.960 of my one of my journal uh entries at the 1:08:57.120 --> 1:09:00.920 very end of that first year, I wrote about the 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:03.840 way the light played on the cliffs and how I 1:09:03.840 --> 1:09:07.600 would watch it disappear, and I felt like that was 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:11.439 much like the life that I was living, that that 1:09:11.560 --> 1:09:17.920 beautiful light, that beautiful life was fading, at least the 1:09:17.960 --> 1:09:21.240 feeling that I had for that year. But but still 1:09:21.560 --> 1:09:24.080 I would take and I still have those photographs of 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:27.040 those sunsets and sunrise. Of course, then composition is not good, 1:09:27.600 --> 1:09:29.800 you know. I all have was a fifty millimeter lands 1:09:29.840 --> 1:09:33.519 on an old cannon Tell shooting code chrome and sixty four. 1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:41.400 But but the light was really what UM played a 1:09:41.479 --> 1:09:45.080 huge role in in the style of my photography. And 1:09:45.240 --> 1:09:49.479 I learned that and also from the hunting, because I 1:09:49.520 --> 1:09:53.880 would shoot my photographs much like I would when I 1:09:53.920 --> 1:09:57.160 was hunting from a low you know, ground level, you know, 1:09:57.640 --> 1:09:59.960 shooting kind of eye level at the at the animal. 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:04.920 And so I remember calling Gary Gretter at sports Field, 1:10:05.040 --> 1:10:09.639 was asking him before I became published a lot about 1:10:09.760 --> 1:10:12.720 my imagery and he said, you've got a style, and 1:10:12.760 --> 1:10:15.080 he said I like it. He said your eye for 1:10:15.280 --> 1:10:19.320 light and color and the angle that you shoot from. 1:10:19.360 --> 1:10:21.680 And I realized at that point that I had established 1:10:21.680 --> 1:10:25.360 a style, and to this day that's I've been at 1:10:25.360 --> 1:10:27.840 this over forty years. People will say, I know your 1:10:27.840 --> 1:10:30.479 image is the minute I see them because of the 1:10:30.560 --> 1:10:34.240 light you use and the angle that you shoot from. 1:10:34.280 --> 1:10:36.640 And that's I mean. And again, you just had a 1:10:36.640 --> 1:10:38.800 passion about something. You were at it every day and 1:10:38.800 --> 1:10:44.360 eventually you had you had developed something hammering on the 1:10:44.439 --> 1:10:47.200 rock and eventually and that wasn't you know at the 1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:49.599 time in the late seventies, nobody around here was being 1:10:49.600 --> 1:10:52.680 published at all. I mean, the closest guy was San Antonio, 1:10:53.840 --> 1:10:57.200 and then the next guy was h an Alice Texas, 1:10:57.680 --> 1:11:03.200 Jerry Smith, hell of a photographer, and um. And so 1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:07.280 the rest of the people were what New Jersey all 1:11:07.320 --> 1:11:09.400 around you know, you I forgot their names. And now 1:11:09.439 --> 1:11:13.800 it's been so long ago. Bill McCrae, those guys super guy, 1:11:14.080 --> 1:11:18.559 super photographer, I hope so because he was a nice fellow. 1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:21.240 But you had Leonta Rue. You know, those are the 1:11:21.320 --> 1:11:23.280 and and that God knows they live across the United 1:11:23.320 --> 1:11:26.320 States from me, and so you know, and at that 1:11:26.400 --> 1:11:28.720 time sent a roll of film. Often it was a 1:11:28.720 --> 1:11:31.400 week or so before I get it back, and so man, 1:11:31.479 --> 1:11:34.040 it was it was basically you know, flint and steel, 1:11:34.760 --> 1:11:37.519 you know, starting to fire. Oh, I had to just 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:40.160 you know, writen down my exposures. And then when I 1:11:40.160 --> 1:11:41.800 get the shots back, I look and I go, well, 1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:45.040 screwed this one up? Wine, I look over and go okay, 1:11:45.080 --> 1:11:47.920 now no way and uh. And it was it was 1:11:47.960 --> 1:11:52.400 a hard process and um and in the twelve years 1:11:52.439 --> 1:11:57.920 I taught it tech as an adjunct professor or an instructor. UM, 1:11:57.960 --> 1:12:01.960 I would instill that in in in people in that 1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:05.760 I am here. You have the opportunity to learn from 1:12:05.800 --> 1:12:09.639 someone who started from the ground up with flint and steel, 1:12:10.240 --> 1:12:14.400 with a stick and string, and and you better pay 1:12:14.439 --> 1:12:18.840 attention because there's not a lot of me around. And 1:12:18.880 --> 1:12:21.280 so for twelve years I shared that with those kids, 1:12:22.280 --> 1:12:24.880 and and I still have letters from them today. I 1:12:25.000 --> 1:12:28.800 kept those letters telling me how much they appreciate my 1:12:28.960 --> 1:12:32.040 sharing the knowledge that I learned from the hard knocks. 1:12:32.360 --> 1:12:35.760 Because there are those folks myself included, or anybody who 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:38.519 wants to be a photographer, even a hunter, it will 1:12:38.560 --> 1:12:41.400 be be loath to know kind of what how you 1:12:42.160 --> 1:12:46.640 hammered that skill out, the process you had to go 1:12:46.720 --> 1:12:48.400 through to your kid to refined image and then to 1:12:48.439 --> 1:12:54.519 mail at somebody and sell itude or whatever. Um. They 1:12:54.560 --> 1:12:57.080 won't know that there's no way for anybody to unless 1:12:57.120 --> 1:13:00.559 they deliberately use that process, they won't know the perspective 1:13:00.600 --> 1:13:02.880 you gain from britt out how how much every image. 1:13:02.880 --> 1:13:04.600 Probably by the time you got an image published, you 1:13:05.520 --> 1:13:10.320 worked and refined and and checked and rechecked. And I 1:13:10.439 --> 1:13:13.600 talked to people. I'd call New York. I mean a 1:13:13.640 --> 1:13:16.320 guy here in Benjamin, Texas, you know, turing fifty eight people. 1:13:16.880 --> 1:13:21.160 Nobody who are Benjamin was? They do now, you know? Uh, 1:13:21.400 --> 1:13:24.200 but uh, for the most part, I mean a lot 1:13:24.200 --> 1:13:26.719 of people don't. But still I would call the guys 1:13:26.760 --> 1:13:29.200 in New York and just say, what do I need 1:13:29.240 --> 1:13:31.519 to do to make a difference? How can I be better? 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:36.120 And luckily they would talk to me. And uh, you 1:13:36.160 --> 1:13:39.840 had Victor Classie at Field and Stream at the time. Good, 1:13:40.000 --> 1:13:42.600 good guy, great guy. Talk to him, you know, and 1:13:42.640 --> 1:13:45.080 he would share ideas with me, and I would try. 1:13:45.080 --> 1:13:48.120 I would go out and I'd hammered out and and 1:13:48.160 --> 1:13:51.559 try to do better. Yeah, I mean, and teaching those kids. 1:13:51.560 --> 1:13:54.880 I mean, I'm sure you learned something about how to 1:13:54.920 --> 1:13:57.880 construct your own ideas the things that you've done, you know, 1:13:57.960 --> 1:13:59.639 he said, you weren't sitting there thinking about I gotta 1:13:59.640 --> 1:14:01.559 have style. I gotta have a style. But eventually with 1:14:01.600 --> 1:14:03.479 your the way you can see things, the way the 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:06.200 light places of what you'd like that it all started 1:14:06.240 --> 1:14:09.280 out with a rifling hand. That was the source, That 1:14:09.400 --> 1:14:12.360 was the seed that that grew into what I have 1:14:12.479 --> 1:14:14.640 today and what I do today and the way I 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:18.080 see life. Well, what did you teach those kids? I mean, 1:14:18.080 --> 1:14:20.000 and you can't say all that wasn't place. It was, 1:14:20.120 --> 1:14:23.800 you know, basically it was responsibility. You know, especially when 1:14:23.800 --> 1:14:26.439 I was teaching at Junction when it was they called 1:14:26.479 --> 1:14:30.719 the Intercession. It was a two week class, a full semester, 1:14:30.760 --> 1:14:34.479 cram in to two weeks, and and the very first day, 1:14:35.080 --> 1:14:37.720 you know, my t A and I laid out the 1:14:37.800 --> 1:14:39.439 battle plan. I mean, this was the way it was 1:14:39.479 --> 1:14:43.160 gonna be done. You had to be on time. If 1:14:43.200 --> 1:14:46.200 you were not on time, if you were three minutes late, 1:14:46.320 --> 1:14:50.120 you were left. So get it. You know. You learn 1:14:50.320 --> 1:14:53.200 up front there will be no sleeping in for two weeks. 1:14:53.560 --> 1:14:57.800 This is gonna be a boot camp. And you will 1:14:58.000 --> 1:15:01.719 walk in the creeks. You will weigh in the beaver 1:15:01.840 --> 1:15:06.120 feeces an Independence Creek. If you have to. You will 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:08.760 wade up to your chin and water to get the 1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:12.600 photograph you will lay down in front of the rattlesnake. 1:15:12.920 --> 1:15:14.559 I don't care if you're afraid of him or not. 1:15:14.920 --> 1:15:17.160 I will keep the snake off of you. But you're 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:19.800 gonna lay down and get eye leveled because that is 1:15:19.840 --> 1:15:23.280 the best angle in which to shoot a rattlesnake. And 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:27.880 I had people scared to death shaking, but when it 1:15:27.960 --> 1:15:32.720 was over, they said, thank you for making me do that. Yeah, 1:15:32.800 --> 1:15:35.400 what are your what are your favorite images that you've 1:15:35.439 --> 1:15:41.120 ever Oh, you know, uh, I love photographing coles, you know, 1:15:41.120 --> 1:15:43.840 because I love photographing deer. I've got photographs of big 1:15:43.880 --> 1:15:47.280 white tails fighting, you know, seeing I've seen things from 1:15:47.320 --> 1:15:50.280 being out on some of these big outfits where where 1:15:50.360 --> 1:15:53.760 other people can't go to most for the most part, 1:15:54.680 --> 1:15:57.160 and being able to see two big bucks go together, 1:15:58.160 --> 1:15:59.880 you know, out in the middle of nowhere, not not 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:03.240 in a fenced area, but just be driving along hilarious 1:16:03.280 --> 1:16:06.120 and all of a sudden crash or be rattling and 1:16:06.160 --> 1:16:08.200 see five bucks come in and all of a sudden 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:10.880 to of them turn on each other and you know, 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:12.720 just go at it, you know, I mean, for the 1:16:13.320 --> 1:16:16.719 I call them Gladiators of the wild Horse Desert because 1:16:16.760 --> 1:16:20.360 I mean they're fighting to fighting to the death. As 1:16:20.400 --> 1:16:22.719 you saw in my home. I got those two skulls 1:16:22.760 --> 1:16:27.760 walk together, and uh, things like that are even a 1:16:27.800 --> 1:16:31.280 little simplistic photographed, like in the in the eighties. One 1:16:31.360 --> 1:16:32.960 day I was into when I was living at the 1:16:33.040 --> 1:16:37.160 jail house there before we built the annex. H a 1:16:37.200 --> 1:16:39.200 snowy day and I was bored, and I went out 1:16:39.520 --> 1:16:42.599 in a pray dog town and photographed this little burrowing 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:46.320 out peering over a snowbank. At that's a wonderful photo 1:16:46.560 --> 1:16:49.400 and and just a great shot. You know. It's just 1:16:49.600 --> 1:16:53.639 it reaches your it touches your soul. Just very simple 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:58.000 images like that, you know, are very memorable shots. Um, 1:16:58.400 --> 1:17:00.639 you know, it doesn't have to be something bodic thing. 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:03.200 Some some people say, well, how long did you wait 1:17:03.240 --> 1:17:07.080 for for a certain image? Will Yeah, I waited one time. 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:12.040 Uh went out every day for like a month and 1:17:12.080 --> 1:17:15.400 a half waiting to catch a coyote two cote fighting. 1:17:16.600 --> 1:17:19.760 That was tough, you know, and like froze my butt 1:17:19.800 --> 1:17:23.160 off his in December and stayed in an old blind 1:17:23.200 --> 1:17:26.200 built out of my skite stumps, and I finally got 1:17:26.200 --> 1:17:30.080 the shot of two cote fighting. But just as significant 1:17:30.640 --> 1:17:34.880 as I came across um a jack rabbit one day 1:17:34.920 --> 1:17:39.400 that accepted my friendship or my my my presence and 1:17:39.880 --> 1:17:43.160 just laid down in the cool sand and stretched out 1:17:43.200 --> 1:17:46.360 like he and just basically went to sleep. And I 1:17:46.479 --> 1:17:49.759 was like ten steps from you, And that was special. 1:17:49.920 --> 1:17:53.720 I'll never forget that. Are are making friends with two 1:17:53.800 --> 1:17:57.720 roadrunners who for all summer allowed me to hunt with 1:17:57.800 --> 1:18:01.040 them every day and I could reach out and touch them. 1:18:01.160 --> 1:18:04.000 They allowed me to do that. It doesn't have to 1:18:04.000 --> 1:18:07.040 be something exotic to make it a great image. It's 1:18:07.080 --> 1:18:09.400 just a memory of that of making that image. What 1:18:09.400 --> 1:18:12.120 what led up to that image that I'll never forget that? 1:18:12.320 --> 1:18:14.479 They will always be special. Yeah, I mean that's got 1:18:14.600 --> 1:18:18.519 to define let's define the creativity. I mean there, that's 1:18:18.560 --> 1:18:22.000 a moment to be able to capture that relationship in 1:18:22.040 --> 1:18:24.360 some rare form like, that's a moment that no, you'll 1:18:24.400 --> 1:18:27.360 never be able to recreate, but then you can share 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:30.720 with many people has decided to look at it or 1:18:30.840 --> 1:18:34.080 come across them. You have got to be important, you know. 1:18:34.280 --> 1:18:35.840 As a writer, I think of that all the time. 1:18:35.880 --> 1:18:38.920 I think that these words, you know, while they mean 1:18:40.160 --> 1:18:42.800 something to be now, they will forever be wherever they 1:18:42.880 --> 1:18:44.200 end up, you know, they end up in a print 1:18:44.240 --> 1:18:47.599 magazine or whatever. They'll forever be there in the form 1:18:47.640 --> 1:18:52.040 that they're in, and nobody can change that. Hopefully someday 1:18:52.080 --> 1:18:54.280 they'll read yours like that, like like we read Jack 1:18:54.320 --> 1:19:02.680 O'Connors today. Hell no, if I could be Billy O'Connor, 1:19:03.760 --> 1:19:08.439 yeah just as well. But yeah, there's hopes of that, right, 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:11.519 you have hopes that your ideas and your creativity somehow 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:14.400 created an impact on the right and I and I 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:17.720 enjoy writing. I enjoy right. I I don't write. I'm 1:19:17.760 --> 1:19:20.920 not a big time writer, like like Henry Chappell, a 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:23.960 guy who I've collaborated with who's just a spiritual writer 1:19:24.320 --> 1:19:27.479 writes from the soul. But I spent a lot of 1:19:27.520 --> 1:19:31.840 time in work in UH, in association on several books 1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:34.400 with John Graves, is one of the great writers, the 1:19:34.479 --> 1:19:38.920 late John Graves, fabulous writer published UH, Goodbye to a 1:19:39.000 --> 1:19:45.559 River and not sixty and he influenced me greatly his 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:50.599 writing style and UH, and I if I feel like writing, 1:19:50.680 --> 1:19:54.160 I love to write. I will not write on anything 1:19:54.400 --> 1:19:56.880 that I don't know something about. I could I could 1:19:57.000 --> 1:20:00.799 never be a news writer. But if I feel like 1:20:00.800 --> 1:20:02.840 like for instance, I wrote a post the other day 1:20:02.880 --> 1:20:07.599 about the history of the jail there that that I've purchased, 1:20:07.640 --> 1:20:10.800 night two, that was built in eighteen eighty seven, and 1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:14.200 I went through the history and the the times of 1:20:14.240 --> 1:20:17.840 living there and the experience. And it was a long 1:20:17.960 --> 1:20:21.840 post and and I'm very proud of that post. I 1:20:21.880 --> 1:20:25.040 spent time in in it, and it's a good example 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:28.519 of my writing style. And hopefully one of these days 1:20:28.520 --> 1:20:30.439 I'll be able to publicsh say it in some little 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:34.080 booklet of my writings, you know, just columns that I've 1:20:34.120 --> 1:20:38.639 written and in posts. Yeah, I mean, I always thought 1:20:38.680 --> 1:20:40.360 about I think about writing in two ways, and in 1:20:40.439 --> 1:20:44.320 the first the first ways, I think it's hard. It's 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:48.000 painful process. It is, and I'm sure photography is that 1:20:48.000 --> 1:20:49.840 way for you. I mean, when I write a long 1:20:49.920 --> 1:20:54.400 form story, it is the worst. Like the actual process 1:20:54.479 --> 1:20:56.880 of mentally like okay, now I gotta do this, now 1:20:56.880 --> 1:21:01.240 I gotta do this, and going over every line and reworking, 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:05.440 and it is. People say, you know, do you enjoy 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:08.879 when you were a writer full time? Do you enjoy 1:21:09.080 --> 1:21:12.559 that process? I'm like, not all I'm doing it, I don't. Yeah, 1:21:12.720 --> 1:21:15.559 it is, it's it's a lot a lot of heart heartaches, 1:21:15.600 --> 1:21:17.400 staying up all night thinking about is this the right 1:21:17.400 --> 1:21:18.920 way to this phrase? This? Is this the right way 1:21:18.960 --> 1:21:21.160 to get my ideas across? Is this the right ending? 1:21:21.200 --> 1:21:24.920 Is this right beginning? Did I carry on through with it? 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:26.800 Just like you? Is that you get passionate about the 1:21:26.800 --> 1:21:28.680 subject or whatever you're right about. You know a lot 1:21:28.720 --> 1:21:30.479 about it and it's important to you, and you think 1:21:30.520 --> 1:21:32.640 like it. Normally you're limited to a certain amount of 1:21:32.680 --> 1:21:37.080 words and you're just trying to, you know, release all 1:21:37.080 --> 1:21:40.160 the energy you have into this short or depending on 1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:44.360 how long it is, into this motive copy. And it's 1:21:44.400 --> 1:21:47.439 just I'm always just distressed. Whenever I turned something in 1:21:47.680 --> 1:21:52.479 is the most it's like the release of all have 1:21:52.560 --> 1:21:55.120 a beer like I did. It might suck, it might 1:21:55.120 --> 1:21:58.080 be really good, but at least it's gone. You know. 1:21:58.160 --> 1:22:00.559 When I was teaching how I totally students. Of course, 1:22:00.560 --> 1:22:03.320 I've taught in mass communication and I had a lot 1:22:03.400 --> 1:22:06.519 of ad com students as well, and it was a 1:22:06.560 --> 1:22:10.440 senior level and graduate level. Photographers, I mean in photography 1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:14.640 was my class. It was editorial photography basically, but I 1:22:14.360 --> 1:22:20.320 I taught my My approach was, okay, you people are 1:22:20.880 --> 1:22:27.760 advanced students and you're in communication. Remember you're in a 1:22:27.760 --> 1:22:32.240 photography class. Building a good photo is like building a 1:22:32.240 --> 1:22:35.880 good paragraph. You have to have a beginning and a 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:39.479 good ending. So, like writing a story, you have these 1:22:39.520 --> 1:22:42.559 elements that must be there in order to carry the 1:22:42.640 --> 1:22:45.840 viewer all the way through to the end. I said, 1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:49.080 think of a photograph. It's writing an article or a 1:22:49.080 --> 1:22:52.679 good paragraph. It's got to start, whale's got to end. Well, 1:22:53.200 --> 1:22:57.519 you gotta have interest points in between. And that was 1:22:57.560 --> 1:23:00.840 my approach. Well, sometimes I'm sure it's like this is 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:03.120 a photography for for writing. For me, sometimes it's like 1:23:03.160 --> 1:23:05.320 I know where I want to get to, but I 1:23:05.360 --> 1:23:07.920 don't necessarily know all the steps to get there. You know, 1:23:08.360 --> 1:23:10.000 like you're saying, I want to get a shot at 1:23:10.000 --> 1:23:12.400 two Bucks fighting. If I knew how to get there, 1:23:12.400 --> 1:23:14.200 I just walk over there and do it. But I 1:23:14.320 --> 1:23:15.800 know I want to get there, and I gotta take 1:23:15.840 --> 1:23:19.439 all these steps get there so that the copy becomes 1:23:19.479 --> 1:23:24.080 this like you know learning process that people cant reread through. 1:23:24.120 --> 1:23:26.320 They get read through your learning process. And I'm sure 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:29.519 with photography, you know, people don't see all the work, 1:23:29.960 --> 1:23:32.320 but they see the end product. You had to take 1:23:32.360 --> 1:23:35.200 every step to get to that and and go. Now, 1:23:35.320 --> 1:23:39.080 it's not it's not easy. They're struggling there. That's not evident. 1:23:39.160 --> 1:23:41.439 There's a you know, a lot of some people recognize. 1:23:41.479 --> 1:23:43.880 I said, man, we knew what you. We understand that 1:23:43.920 --> 1:23:46.080 you probably went through a lot of trouble to get 1:23:46.120 --> 1:23:48.760 these other people that's just a great picture. But they 1:23:48.800 --> 1:23:53.080 can't and I appreciate them appreciating it. Yeah, but some 1:23:53.120 --> 1:23:55.679 people can see the paintings. Some people can see the strokes. 1:23:55.960 --> 1:23:59.320 And it's like like someone I learned very early in 1:23:59.320 --> 1:24:02.960 in editorial work, the editor doesn't give a damn how 1:24:03.040 --> 1:24:05.240 much trouble it took to get the image. Just get 1:24:05.280 --> 1:24:09.040 the image. So don't worry about telling him or her 1:24:09.640 --> 1:24:11.720 you know how hard it was to get. Just make 1:24:11.760 --> 1:24:16.360 sure it's right. Yeah, we're talking about your the creativity 1:24:16.400 --> 1:24:18.600 it takes to do that. And then you know, it 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:21.000 takes pressure to make a diamond, right, I mean, the 1:24:21.160 --> 1:24:24.840 struggle for you as real. But then you started to 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:27.960 very quickly, uh find success, Well not very quickly, but 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:31.200 you you started to find success and and eventually you 1:24:31.240 --> 1:24:34.720 were you know, you marry that up to today and 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:40.360 you're putting out books, films, what you're doing speaking engagements, 1:24:40.360 --> 1:24:44.800 you're doing photography classes. You're pretty much immersed in this 1:24:44.920 --> 1:24:49.519 life that that is defined by success, many successes, many 1:24:49.600 --> 1:24:54.120 varying successes at different levels. Um, how does that feel? 1:24:54.160 --> 1:24:56.520 Just as I just remove everything else, just as a photographer, 1:24:56.560 --> 1:24:59.680 just as a creativity, just a creative person. Yeah, you know, 1:24:59.760 --> 1:25:02.439 you've feel it's a it's a positive thing. You know, 1:25:02.479 --> 1:25:06.360 you feel like that you've achieved. I know that in 1:25:06.360 --> 1:25:10.760 the early years, you know, there was this yearning what 1:25:11.680 --> 1:25:15.919 is the sign of when will I know that success 1:25:15.960 --> 1:25:19.960 has right? Uh, It's like I told my students, Uh, 1:25:20.120 --> 1:25:25.000 not not necessarily monetary in monetary ways. There are other 1:25:25.160 --> 1:25:31.240 other times, other aspects, other elements that define success. And 1:25:31.280 --> 1:25:33.960 one of them is, you know, are some of them 1:25:34.000 --> 1:25:37.400 are people calling you? You know, would you please come 1:25:37.439 --> 1:25:41.439 and share your knowledge with us? And uh, or share 1:25:41.479 --> 1:25:45.599 your imagery or we want to use your imagery. And 1:25:45.640 --> 1:25:47.559 of course obviously you know you want to get paid 1:25:47.600 --> 1:25:50.479 for it. But but still that people want to hear 1:25:50.560 --> 1:25:53.160 your word, they want to hear your your message. They 1:25:53.160 --> 1:25:55.800 want to know the experiences that you that you had 1:25:55.840 --> 1:26:00.000 to endure to get to where you are today. And uh, 1:26:00.160 --> 1:26:02.800 and I you know, I'll admit, you know, it's not 1:26:02.840 --> 1:26:04.360 like me in movies or anything. But you know, I've 1:26:04.360 --> 1:26:06.800 gone to Cabella's and places and people will come up 1:26:06.840 --> 1:26:09.200 and say, you know, you know, I'm a fan of yours, 1:26:09.200 --> 1:26:11.880 blah blah blah blah blah blah, you know what you 1:26:11.880 --> 1:26:14.400 you know, sign your autograph, you know, And I and 1:26:14.439 --> 1:26:20.040 I appreciate that. I'm humbled by it. But when I leave, 1:26:20.080 --> 1:26:24.240 I feel good because I know that I really did arrive. 1:26:25.360 --> 1:26:29.559 And again it's not something that I that I set 1:26:29.600 --> 1:26:33.560 as a goal. It was just It's just an ancillary 1:26:33.640 --> 1:26:37.200 thing of the success of a lot of hard work. 1:26:38.040 --> 1:26:40.360 And and I do appreciate it. And I tell people 1:26:40.720 --> 1:26:44.400 thank you so much because I appreciate people saying what 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:46.879 you just did to me. It makes me feel like 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:50.280 like what I've done is worth worth and is it impactful. 1:26:50.439 --> 1:26:53.519 I don't the same. But beyond the you know, even 1:26:53.560 --> 1:26:56.800 beyond photography, you'd have to admit to some level, because 1:26:56.840 --> 1:26:58.439 I remember when I first came up here and I 1:26:58.479 --> 1:27:02.600 was describing, man, I met this guy, like this exceptional 1:27:02.720 --> 1:27:08.240 fella in Benjamin Kayok killing some be but exceptional. So 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:10.680 you don't have to admit to some level of exceptionalism 1:27:10.720 --> 1:27:14.960 outside of of your professional life in your career, just 1:27:15.040 --> 1:27:20.120 when it comes to building your own calls, having a 1:27:20.200 --> 1:27:23.680 book of all your kayo kills, the histories that are 1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:28.559 are in the jail have remodeling that jail house, and 1:27:28.560 --> 1:27:31.640 and having to be featured on what HTTV building a 1:27:31.720 --> 1:27:35.479 dugout with your brother Rick. So you I want to 1:27:35.520 --> 1:27:37.280 get you to admit to some level of like just 1:27:37.760 --> 1:27:40.599 exceptionalism outside of just hey, I wake up in the morning, 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:42.240 I'm gonna do this or that. I mean, they're just 1:27:42.360 --> 1:27:45.439 is uh something in you? Yes, there's a drive, there's 1:27:45.479 --> 1:27:47.960 a fire, there's a fire that I have to excel. 1:27:48.040 --> 1:27:50.280 I can't. I'm not to kind of get a person. 1:27:50.400 --> 1:27:52.160 And then I know a lot of my friends this way, 1:27:52.240 --> 1:27:54.800 my boys, this way. You get up in the morning 1:27:54.880 --> 1:27:57.519 and you want to achieve something. I don't care if 1:27:57.520 --> 1:27:59.920 it's building a Kayo call. I don't care if it's 1:28:00.040 --> 1:28:04.519 more in the lawn exactly right, are building a wooden box? 1:28:05.280 --> 1:28:06.840 You know. I want to know by the end of 1:28:06.840 --> 1:28:10.040 the day, I have achieved something that I can be, 1:28:10.400 --> 1:28:13.760 that I can take pride in and and something that 1:28:13.920 --> 1:28:17.200 is lasting that I can turn around and view and 1:28:17.200 --> 1:28:21.439 go I did that. And that's just the way I'm built. 1:28:22.000 --> 1:28:25.400 It's it's genetically coated in me. My father was that way. 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:28.559 He worked too much. He was a workaholic. He was 1:28:28.600 --> 1:28:32.960 just an old cowboy work, you know, born in eighteen nine, eighteen, 1:28:33.000 --> 1:28:37.280 worked through the depression, was hungry and he knew he 1:28:37.360 --> 1:28:39.479 had to work. And I was told by the old 1:28:39.479 --> 1:28:42.240 timers that he was a hell of a horseman. He 1:28:42.360 --> 1:28:46.080 rode the rough string at some of these ranches, rode 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:50.240 their bad horses. He was just cut like that. And uh, 1:28:50.320 --> 1:28:52.800 and that's just that's just the way that some of 1:28:52.880 --> 1:29:00.360 us are. And um. And like yesterday, yesterday, I had 1:29:00.360 --> 1:29:02.120 the grandkids there, but I wanted to take a break 1:29:02.120 --> 1:29:03.720 and go out to my shop and I built a 1:29:03.760 --> 1:29:07.479 Kyo call and I felt great, I felt wonderful. I 1:29:07.479 --> 1:29:09.160 went back to the house and went, I have a 1:29:09.280 --> 1:29:13.080 cheese something. Today. I built a kyo call that is 1:29:13.160 --> 1:29:16.639 so good that I'm putting it in my personal collection. Yeah, 1:29:17.640 --> 1:29:20.640 that's yesterday. That was yesterday. Yeah, when I when I 1:29:20.680 --> 1:29:22.479 came up here the first time you had I remember 1:29:22.479 --> 1:29:24.360 you had we were over there at the Spike Box 1:29:24.360 --> 1:29:26.040 f Nance and you came out and you had your 1:29:26.080 --> 1:29:28.240 book of all the kaya Kills. And we looked at 1:29:28.240 --> 1:29:31.160 that and I thought, I've never seen I mean, these 1:29:31.160 --> 1:29:37.400 are you know how many notebooks are there now? One, two, three, 1:29:37.840 --> 1:29:41.200 four or five and around five or six seven, something 1:29:41.200 --> 1:29:42.920 like that. And to describe what this looks like, this 1:29:43.000 --> 1:29:45.760 is a stack of old to new body like. Some 1:29:45.840 --> 1:29:50.000 of them are held together with great tape, little dusty, 1:29:50.120 --> 1:29:54.080 dirty duct tape. You have, dirty, bloody And it's essentially 1:29:54.120 --> 1:29:56.280 a roll of row of columns. And you you wrote, 1:29:56.680 --> 1:29:59.719 you can tell me but where, Yeah, I put the date, 1:30:00.320 --> 1:30:04.880 the location, the rifle of the distance, if he was 1:30:04.960 --> 1:30:09.040 running or walking, the age, the way, the gender, the 1:30:09.120 --> 1:30:12.200 weather conditions, if I called him up, the direction the 1:30:12.280 --> 1:30:16.560 approached in the direction of the wind. And then comments 1:30:17.400 --> 1:30:21.160 was he was he in good condition? Um? You know, 1:30:21.280 --> 1:30:23.800 was there something wrong with him? That type of thing. 1:30:24.000 --> 1:30:25.400 And so you can flip through. And I remember the 1:30:25.400 --> 1:30:27.200 first time you did very flip through and be like 1:30:27.400 --> 1:30:30.519 there you up sixty nine, Me and old Bob waters 1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:36.879 the winds out of the north, and this kid approached 1:30:36.920 --> 1:30:39.160 up this little royal and he shot him at twenty yards. 1:30:39.320 --> 1:30:41.880 And I and I've since I've taken my my notes 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:48.000 to a statistician and he has gone through bless his heart. Wow, 1:30:48.080 --> 1:30:50.400 that was that was a job amassing all this. I 1:30:50.439 --> 1:30:52.960 had to go through all my notes and put him 1:30:53.000 --> 1:30:57.520 in order and then gave him to the statistician Neil Wilkins, 1:30:58.479 --> 1:31:03.240 and he came up with all this data wind direction, 1:31:03.320 --> 1:31:09.360 average wind velocity, average weight. Uh does male do male? Uh? 1:31:09.479 --> 1:31:13.120 Cotes answer a call more prevalent than a female? Blah 1:31:13.120 --> 1:31:16.800 blah blah. And then I went in and then slice 1:31:16.880 --> 1:31:22.439 this into time frames and figured out, uh, you know, 1:31:22.920 --> 1:31:26.519 the percentage of coves that would come up wind, down wind, 1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:32.240 cross wind, Uh, the average distance they were, Um, you know, 1:31:32.400 --> 1:31:35.360 the average male and the female. What what the what 1:31:35.479 --> 1:31:39.400 the ratio was? And broke that down and I keep 1:31:39.479 --> 1:31:42.240 that and now do that each year. And I just 1:31:42.320 --> 1:31:45.360 finished this last my last season, just just a few 1:31:45.439 --> 1:31:48.559 days and going I'm going this could get oh real quick, 1:31:49.960 --> 1:31:52.760 The hell have I been doing a god? You know, 1:31:52.800 --> 1:31:55.640 I get to get the calculators and they're picking in 1:31:55.680 --> 1:31:58.400 the numbers and go I thought through this not teams 1:31:58.680 --> 1:32:02.720 seven before, and I got out of heck, you know, statistics, 1:32:02.920 --> 1:32:05.640 I love it, but yeah, it just it draws me 1:32:05.680 --> 1:32:07.559 back to this when you see you know folks would 1:32:07.560 --> 1:32:12.639 ever see that book. Um, it's just this exceptional display 1:32:12.800 --> 1:32:17.400 of of I'm not even sure other than just say 1:32:17.439 --> 1:32:20.800 like there's there's an exceptionalism to the consistency with which 1:32:20.840 --> 1:32:23.479 over the years that you did that. That statutician Neil 1:32:23.520 --> 1:32:27.000 Wilkins told me, he said, this is very interesting because 1:32:27.080 --> 1:32:30.360 I doubt there are there are there is any data 1:32:30.439 --> 1:32:33.680 like this anywhere anywhere in the world. How could there 1:32:33.720 --> 1:32:39.160 be this is there couldn't put the range of the 1:32:39.240 --> 1:32:42.080 kia or it's lived for that many years, because they've 1:32:42.080 --> 1:32:44.640 been certainly been spread around in the recent years, but 1:32:44.680 --> 1:32:48.479 they weren't always spread around this country. Uh, the amount 1:32:48.479 --> 1:32:51.720 of years where the kio lived, in the amount of 1:32:51.720 --> 1:32:55.120 times that you recorded the KaiA, it's crazy. Couldn't be. 1:32:55.200 --> 1:32:58.559 And I started when I started it. The first note 1:32:58.600 --> 1:33:01.519 that I ever took was October's seventeenth, nineteen sixty five, 1:33:01.560 --> 1:33:04.599 when I shot my first one, and all it was 1:33:04.600 --> 1:33:07.160 was a card, a little fold that card that you 1:33:07.200 --> 1:33:09.679 would put in a file, and it had Wyman Men's 1:33:09.680 --> 1:33:16.280 are Killed A code to fift PM. October sevent nineteen 1:33:16.360 --> 1:33:20.479 sixty five with a thirty thirty Marlin with a two 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:23.240 and a half power scope with a hundred fifty grain 1:33:23.320 --> 1:33:27.800 bullet shot running at two hundred forty seven yards. Who 1:33:27.880 --> 1:33:31.240 was with me, my friend Kermit Woollie. That was the 1:33:31.280 --> 1:33:36.360 first note I ever wrote on on hunting, and and 1:33:36.400 --> 1:33:40.719 then and then after that, I would just put one, two, three, five, 1:33:40.760 --> 1:33:42.760 six seven, then I put a mark to it. And 1:33:42.760 --> 1:33:44.920 then when I got to a hundred, I went, I'm 1:33:44.920 --> 1:33:47.599 gonna start keeping more detailed notes. And then I started 1:33:47.680 --> 1:33:49.479 keeping him a little bit more detail, and then way 1:33:49.520 --> 1:33:52.960 more detail, and then got deeper into it. And so 1:33:53.040 --> 1:33:55.240 now I've got a And then there were years that 1:33:55.280 --> 1:33:57.600 I would kind of very ago, I'm too busy to 1:33:57.640 --> 1:34:00.880 put that many notes down, but I would document. I 1:34:00.880 --> 1:34:04.520 would document, but I might not put the weather conditions 1:34:04.640 --> 1:34:09.200 or something like that. But now it's absolute. In the 1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:12.680 last you know, eight or ten years, it's absolute. I 1:34:12.720 --> 1:34:15.680 don't miss any notes. I even put a blood if 1:34:15.720 --> 1:34:18.280 I kill the kid, if if I'm not photographing, I'll 1:34:18.280 --> 1:34:21.519 actually put a blood print. I put my fingerprint, and 1:34:21.560 --> 1:34:26.800 I put a blood spot. And and I actually had 1:34:26.840 --> 1:34:30.280 dinner with uh, with one of the greatest cat men 1:34:30.479 --> 1:34:35.519 in America. While researcher Mike Toois, who knows more about 1:34:35.960 --> 1:34:39.040 Austin than any man in the world. And I told 1:34:39.080 --> 1:34:41.120 me about my notes, and he said, one of these days, 1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:43.880 I would like to look at your Bobcat notes and 1:34:43.960 --> 1:34:46.840 your blood prints, because I we might be able to 1:34:46.840 --> 1:34:51.120 take DNA samples from those blood prints and find out 1:34:51.240 --> 1:34:53.719 something about the bobcats and you're part of the country 1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:57.240 versus bobcats elsewhere. And that's one of the reasons I 1:34:57.280 --> 1:35:00.479 did that blood print, because I got to thinking, what 1:35:00.680 --> 1:35:05.679 if the old wolf trappers in the nineteenth century who 1:35:05.760 --> 1:35:12.080 exterminated the Texas buffalo wolf, but I mean literally exterminated 1:35:12.120 --> 1:35:16.479 that wolf. I don't remember. The subspecies was Kenis lupus, 1:35:16.800 --> 1:35:20.080 one of them was monstrobolis, and then there was another 1:35:20.080 --> 1:35:23.280 and there's like three different wolves in Texas of gray wolves, 1:35:23.880 --> 1:35:26.360 but they exterminated. Well, what if each one of those 1:35:26.360 --> 1:35:29.160 guys would have kept a blood print, but they could 1:35:29.160 --> 1:35:37.880 take the DNA and compare it with the wolves in Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Alaska, Ontario, 1:35:38.720 --> 1:35:42.519 British Columbia. What if? And so I said, you know, 1:35:42.520 --> 1:35:45.640 I'm gonna starting doing that so and I won't realize it, 1:35:45.840 --> 1:35:48.840 but some day somebody might realize something from this that's 1:35:48.880 --> 1:35:53.160 positive yeah, and there will. It's no doubt about it 1:35:53.160 --> 1:35:56.160 in my mind. And that's too to see you walk 1:35:56.160 --> 1:35:58.000 out with a big stack of thingy like, that's a 1:35:58.120 --> 1:36:01.559 life right there. That's that is that am life. It is. 1:36:01.800 --> 1:36:04.519 It is a huge part of it. So the next 1:36:04.560 --> 1:36:07.880 exceptional thing that you've done, it's not in order at all. 1:36:08.000 --> 1:36:11.840 But you bought a jail, yes, and then you remodeled 1:36:11.880 --> 1:36:14.760 said jail, lived in that jail house. We're talking an 1:36:14.800 --> 1:36:20.080 old eighteen hundreds stone j right, So why did you 1:36:20.080 --> 1:36:25.240 do that? Could my ex wife wanted it? That could 1:36:25.240 --> 1:36:28.439 be serious another chapter of the book, right, and I did. 1:36:28.520 --> 1:36:30.439 I mean all I can see was a tremendous amount 1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:32.840 of work. And but we hired a couple of guys 1:36:32.880 --> 1:36:35.600 who are really good freelance guys. They weren't your you know, 1:36:35.720 --> 1:36:38.600 your follow you have to follow a line, you know 1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:42.080 this ABC, D f G. And these were the guys 1:36:42.120 --> 1:36:44.400 who would look at a blueprint and go, yeah, I 1:36:44.400 --> 1:36:46.559 think we can do this, or they look at us 1:36:46.560 --> 1:36:50.320 say yeah, let's do this. It may not be the 1:36:50.479 --> 1:36:52.759 exact way it should be done, but this is probably 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:56.800 the way that it would be stronger. And they lived here. 1:36:56.960 --> 1:36:58.360 One of them is to cease now, but one of 1:36:58.400 --> 1:37:01.240 them still lives here and works for the Army Corp 1:37:01.240 --> 1:37:06.160 of Engineer Tracy Cartwright. And so together we put that 1:37:06.360 --> 1:37:10.360 we worked years on it, and uh and I it's 1:37:10.479 --> 1:37:13.719 it's it's a work. I'm very proud of the place. 1:37:13.920 --> 1:37:15.320 We don't live in it now. It's more or less 1:37:15.320 --> 1:37:19.920 a museum, but it represents another era. And in my 1:37:19.960 --> 1:37:23.160 appreciation of history, I can go in there and I 1:37:23.200 --> 1:37:24.880 can pick up that old jail book and I can 1:37:24.880 --> 1:37:30.280 look at the name October seven, W. E. Willis, horse theft, 1:37:30.400 --> 1:37:32.720 the first guy ever thrown in there. Then you look 1:37:32.800 --> 1:37:37.439 down and a week later W E. Willis? You know, 1:37:38.080 --> 1:37:42.519 W was a popular dude here. And then I put 1:37:42.560 --> 1:37:45.559 this on Facebook, this page, and here this guy right, 1:37:45.640 --> 1:37:50.120 he said, W. Willis is my great great grandfather, and 1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:54.479 he was. He and Mr Drummond I think it was. 1:37:54.880 --> 1:37:57.760 That's just down the line from him. Was thrown in 1:37:58.520 --> 1:38:03.280 the state penitentiary and it escaped and w was never 1:38:03.320 --> 1:38:05.519 heard from again. We don't know where he went. But 1:38:05.600 --> 1:38:07.760 this other fellow turned up and lived a good life 1:38:07.840 --> 1:38:10.880 after that. But he said, we don't know where W went. 1:38:11.680 --> 1:38:15.639 He just disappeared. It's amazing, you know, all this stuff 1:38:15.720 --> 1:38:18.160 just pops up. It's amazing. Yeah, if you got your 1:38:18.200 --> 1:38:21.200 own history, it's always yeah, it's just it's just all 1:38:21.800 --> 1:38:24.839 and you know, and I bought that jail nineteen eighty two, 1:38:25.040 --> 1:38:27.160 and so it was a around a hundred years old, 1:38:27.320 --> 1:38:31.240 hundred basically a hundred years old. And then he was like, yesterday, 1:38:31.280 --> 1:38:33.160 I get this email from this guy that tells me 1:38:33.200 --> 1:38:36.880 about W. Willis And I've been looking at his name 1:38:36.920 --> 1:38:40.120 since nineteen two. And you guys have worked on that 1:38:40.200 --> 1:38:42.600 jail for how long? Jeez? It took two and a 1:38:42.600 --> 1:38:44.880 half years. Was it crumbling when you bought it? It 1:38:45.000 --> 1:38:49.960 was a horrible condition that windows were all broken out, Uh, 1:38:50.240 --> 1:38:54.280 raining in the windows, the rock was disintegrating. It was 1:38:54.320 --> 1:38:57.479 just terrible. And so it just took. You know, we 1:38:57.600 --> 1:39:00.519 bought the thing for six thousand, and it took. I 1:39:00.560 --> 1:39:04.040 looked at the old uh, the old notes, the old 1:39:04.160 --> 1:39:07.760 entry in the courthouse, Uh, in the county notes, and 1:39:07.800 --> 1:39:10.920 it's cost six thousand dollars to build it. I paid 1:39:10.960 --> 1:39:15.080 six thousand dollars for a nineteen two and UH put 1:39:15.120 --> 1:39:19.400 about sixty thousand in it to refurbish it. And uh, 1:39:19.520 --> 1:39:21.800 and it's it's quite a deal. H g TV has 1:39:21.840 --> 1:39:26.000 been there three times, and it's beautiful and it's like 1:39:26.120 --> 1:39:28.519 you know when you know. Yetie came and they did 1:39:28.560 --> 1:39:32.160 all their interviews in the jail, and then last a 1:39:32.240 --> 1:39:35.920 year ago, this past June, Best made Uh out of 1:39:35.920 --> 1:39:38.559 New York City came and shot the catalog, some of 1:39:38.600 --> 1:39:41.639 it in the jail. It's just a really neat place. 1:39:41.720 --> 1:39:44.559 And and when people come in, you know, sometimes someone 1:39:44.600 --> 1:39:46.519 will stop said, man, that's a neat place and said, 1:39:46.800 --> 1:39:49.439 how would you like to go for a walk through? 1:39:49.760 --> 1:39:51.640 Would you really take me through? That said sure, I 1:39:51.680 --> 1:39:53.840 got some time. One day I stopped and there's three 1:39:53.840 --> 1:39:56.559 guys standing in the ditch, So can I help you? 1:39:56.560 --> 1:39:59.080 And they said, ah really, I said, well, I own 1:39:59.160 --> 1:40:01.479 that place right there. I said, would you like a visit? 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:04.280 And there were three Texas Rangers. He said, oh, you 1:40:04.360 --> 1:40:06.880 take us through. I said sure, so would give me 1:40:06.880 --> 1:40:08.800 a minute. A part took him through there, and I 1:40:08.880 --> 1:40:12.360 mean they were so happy, so thankful. And of course 1:40:12.400 --> 1:40:13.920 one of the guys that used to live in there 1:40:13.960 --> 1:40:16.920 in the twenties was a Texas Ranger when he died 1:40:17.640 --> 1:40:20.040 home with Team Melton. He's an old buddy of mine 1:40:20.680 --> 1:40:22.559 and he'd tell me stories when he was a kid 1:40:22.680 --> 1:40:25.759 leaving to jail and nineteen twenties during the Prohibition years, 1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:30.400 and all the people his daddy threw in jail, including 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:35.400 the sister of Ernest Tub, the country singer Ernest Tub Yeah, 1:40:36.080 --> 1:40:40.080 Jules Snailson, and that I mean when he walked through 1:40:40.080 --> 1:40:42.840 that place. You've kept it, You've updated it to this 1:40:42.920 --> 1:40:47.640 beautiful I mean it could be a bed and breakfast, um, 1:40:47.680 --> 1:40:51.200 but it still has the original bars on something, a 1:40:51.200 --> 1:40:54.600 lot of the windows still a lot of the bars, 1:40:55.280 --> 1:40:57.040 and so it just has this it's much like I think, 1:40:57.040 --> 1:40:58.760 it's kind of like the way you lived your life. 1:40:58.760 --> 1:41:01.040 It's like this beauty full representation of who you are, 1:41:01.120 --> 1:41:05.400 your creativity. But it's it's it's has respect for what 1:41:05.439 --> 1:41:07.439 it is, respect for the history of that building to 1:41:07.520 --> 1:41:10.599 what it means. And so it's it's another I say, 1:41:10.720 --> 1:41:14.000 like another example. The other example is you and your 1:41:14.040 --> 1:41:18.320 brother Rick build a dugout angler creek dugout on the 1:41:18.479 --> 1:41:21.280 creek dug out. I took a few years off your life. 1:41:22.360 --> 1:41:26.200 That came from that came from our appreciation for the 1:41:26.280 --> 1:41:28.280 life our mother lad when she had lived in a 1:41:28.320 --> 1:41:31.880 dugout when she was a young child during the depression. 1:41:32.160 --> 1:41:34.160 And the dugout is essentially just a hole. That's a 1:41:34.240 --> 1:41:36.040 hole dug in the back of the bank with a 1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:38.640 with a roof put on top of it and the 1:41:38.720 --> 1:41:42.080 roof covered in dirt with a stove pope steaking at 1:41:42.080 --> 1:41:46.439 the top. And we worked from February of I think 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:52.000 two thousand and fifteen, and we finished that thing and 1:41:52.080 --> 1:41:56.519 like about November of two thousand and fifteen. And it 1:41:56.600 --> 1:41:58.760 wouldn't work on it, you know, on weekends and and 1:41:59.320 --> 1:42:02.120 but the main thing is like we consistently and we 1:42:02.120 --> 1:42:04.720 we had a plan. Let's do abcd f G. We 1:42:05.560 --> 1:42:09.559 I actually saw a dugout in the sixties when I 1:42:09.560 --> 1:42:12.240 was cowboying on the ranch, and it was a one 1:42:12.240 --> 1:42:15.479 man dugout. And I remember the construction of it. I 1:42:15.520 --> 1:42:17.920 remember getting on my hands knees and looking inside and 1:42:17.920 --> 1:42:20.800 seeing how they had the ridge pole and and the 1:42:20.840 --> 1:42:24.200 support poles. And so that's the way we built it 1:42:25.240 --> 1:42:29.599 and um and it's built to stay. It'll be here 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:32.360 for a long long time. We built it to last. 1:42:32.400 --> 1:42:37.120 It wasn't something that might crumbled in five years to 1:42:37.160 --> 1:42:40.200 that place. Now, you guys cut how many trees? How 1:42:40.200 --> 1:42:44.439 many days there were days we were cut we would 1:42:44.479 --> 1:42:47.840 go cut red cedars. We traded. We traded a bunch 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:49.840 of We traded a case of beer for a bunch 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:53.680 of red cedar trees. And we would go out and 1:42:53.720 --> 1:42:56.400 I remember the wait, what kind of beer was it? Uh? 1:42:56.479 --> 1:42:58.559 It's uh. We told the guy just buy something, we'd 1:42:58.600 --> 1:43:00.240 would pay for it. It It might have been and I 1:43:00.439 --> 1:43:03.760 might have been some some Coors Light. I don't preferably 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:09.320 it was dos Achies, but he or yeah, but uh anyway, Um, 1:43:09.600 --> 1:43:12.400 I remember one day it was dove season and we 1:43:12.439 --> 1:43:14.679 had a hundred and like a hundred two degree days. 1:43:14.760 --> 1:43:17.479 Wind was blowing. God, it was hot. We were right 1:43:17.520 --> 1:43:20.559 there cutting those things. They weighed like a hundred fifty 1:43:20.600 --> 1:43:24.280 pounds each, thirty five ft long. Was carrying him out 1:43:24.320 --> 1:43:26.040 if we took the cut the limbs off of them, 1:43:26.080 --> 1:43:28.400 loading him in a trader. And here comes the game 1:43:28.400 --> 1:43:30.080 ward and driving up and he'd been watching us and 1:43:30.120 --> 1:43:31.800 he thought we were dove hunting, and he's he's a 1:43:31.800 --> 1:43:36.200 good guy, great guy. He said, Oh, I thought y'all 1:43:36.240 --> 1:43:38.400 were hunters, and I was come to check your license. 1:43:39.040 --> 1:43:41.400 I said, no, we're just cutting these trees. Were working 1:43:41.439 --> 1:43:44.080 on our dugout and I said, I said man, if 1:43:44.120 --> 1:43:46.040 you're gonna give us a ticket, give us a ticket. 1:43:47.000 --> 1:43:48.800 If you're if you're not gonna get out and help 1:43:48.920 --> 1:43:52.040 us or give us a ticket, just move on, man, 1:43:52.680 --> 1:43:57.720 he said, I believe I'm gonna leave there and man 1:43:57.800 --> 1:44:01.080 at work. But we uh, oh, my jeez. I don't 1:44:01.120 --> 1:44:03.240 know how we survived through that, because I remember one 1:44:03.320 --> 1:44:08.519 day shoveling dirt onto that roof for six hours, six hours, 1:44:08.680 --> 1:44:11.439 and I didn't know at the time I had like blocks. Yeah, 1:44:11.479 --> 1:44:14.800 we were talking about that the next year, and in 1:44:15.160 --> 1:44:17.479 November of two December of two thousand and sixteen, I 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:21.080 had to have a stint in my left left artery. 1:44:21.320 --> 1:44:23.320 We'll talk about one to achieve something. I mean, there 1:44:23.400 --> 1:44:25.559 is zero reason for you guys to build that, like 1:44:25.640 --> 1:44:27.640 the zero practical reason for you guys to build a 1:44:27.720 --> 1:44:30.680 dugout right. It was just it was just an appreciation 1:44:30.720 --> 1:44:33.439 for an old whale wife. And like I said, we'll 1:44:33.479 --> 1:44:36.479 be there for We can go there and take our kid, 1:44:36.560 --> 1:44:38.760 we can go there and take friends, we can celebrate, 1:44:39.080 --> 1:44:40.920 we can open a bottle of wine on a fall 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:44.800 evening or in or spend the night, get up on 1:44:44.840 --> 1:44:48.080 the deck and set up there and and listen to 1:44:48.160 --> 1:44:50.760 the wild turkey and listen to the bird's call and say, 1:44:50.880 --> 1:44:53.839 that's the sound of winter, that's the sound of spring, 1:44:54.800 --> 1:44:57.679 that's the sound of fall. That's the first geese I've 1:44:57.680 --> 1:45:00.120 heard come in. Those are the sand hill cranes us 1:45:00.120 --> 1:45:03.519 the beginning of autumn. And just and just talk about that, 1:45:03.600 --> 1:45:06.439 and that takes us back to when we were young, 1:45:06.640 --> 1:45:08.960 and when we lived a quarter of a mile away 1:45:09.000 --> 1:45:11.840 where we were raised, when we used to walk down 1:45:11.880 --> 1:45:16.160 to that same spot and hunt like fifty yards away 1:45:16.240 --> 1:45:19.400 with an old sawt off twive gate shotgun that was 1:45:19.479 --> 1:45:23.680 held together with copper wire that had bulges in the 1:45:23.720 --> 1:45:27.200 barrel where people had shot with with something in the barrel, 1:45:27.960 --> 1:45:31.360 and and uh, dangerous is heck? But that's the guns 1:45:31.360 --> 1:45:36.400 we used, and and and reminisce and have a good time. Yeah, 1:45:36.920 --> 1:45:38.960 Well that's where you are, you know. I'm sure it's 1:45:38.960 --> 1:45:41.600 your life now. In the Yetie film you said you 1:45:41.680 --> 1:45:46.920 gotta be at a and and so you're a z um. 1:45:48.120 --> 1:45:52.160 You got grandkids, we'd say, seven grand grandkids, a wonderful wife, 1:45:52.280 --> 1:45:56.040 great home here, lots of lots of friends, lots of friends, 1:45:56.080 --> 1:45:59.240 lots of memories, lots of artifacts from your life and 1:45:59.240 --> 1:46:01.920 other folks life. They appreciate it. I mean, what's what's 1:46:01.960 --> 1:46:03.719 the feeling when you get up in the morning nowadays? 1:46:03.720 --> 1:46:06.920 I mean, what's up again? It's what can I do today? 1:46:07.400 --> 1:46:09.519 What can I do today that I can achieve something? 1:46:10.640 --> 1:46:15.480 And um and I and I suppose it will never change. 1:46:16.000 --> 1:46:18.320 I want to achieve and I don't care how how 1:46:18.360 --> 1:46:21.559 minimal it is, how how insignificant people are. Why why 1:46:21.600 --> 1:46:24.479 are you building that the little call? You know, it's 1:46:24.560 --> 1:46:27.320 because I want to and I want it to sound 1:46:27.479 --> 1:46:31.040 just right to where I can put it down and 1:46:31.080 --> 1:46:35.479 say I have I have achieved something positive, something that 1:46:35.520 --> 1:46:38.559 I can use or I cannot use. But it's something 1:46:38.600 --> 1:46:42.120 that someday someone will look at with my initials and 1:46:42.200 --> 1:46:45.320 say he built this. This is from why i'man menzer 1:46:46.479 --> 1:46:51.640 and there's a lot of that hopefully. Yeah, you're a 1:46:51.680 --> 1:46:53.400 part of this land. This land is a part of you, 1:46:53.520 --> 1:46:56.360 I'd like to think. So that's definitely as part of me. 1:46:56.439 --> 1:46:59.240 It's it's it Its shaped my whole, my whole life. 1:46:59.280 --> 1:47:02.800 It shaped myself. I mean it's from a child. I mean, 1:47:03.360 --> 1:47:09.400 it's the light, the roughness of the land. To the 1:47:09.479 --> 1:47:12.600 American called it. Lizards that used to fascinate me to 1:47:12.920 --> 1:47:15.320 the bones of a of a mami stick and have 1:47:15.400 --> 1:47:19.320 a creek bank, uh, finding a buffalo skull. All those 1:47:19.360 --> 1:47:24.599 things have have created the foundation for what I am today. 1:47:25.320 --> 1:47:27.680 What what do you say? I think I know what 1:47:27.720 --> 1:47:29.960 you'd say, But what would you say to somebody who 1:47:30.439 --> 1:47:32.080 Because I think there's a lot of people that listen 1:47:32.120 --> 1:47:36.640 to this particular program that maybe your thirty five or 1:47:36.680 --> 1:47:41.040 forty or twenty five, or just are curious about hunting 1:47:41.240 --> 1:47:43.439 just starting out. I've met a lot of them. I 1:47:43.520 --> 1:47:45.400 heard fu lot of them via email, I've heard from 1:47:45.400 --> 1:47:49.280 a lot of them on messages from different platforms that 1:47:49.360 --> 1:47:53.800 are it's curious about hunting, getting outside. They're new to it. 1:47:54.040 --> 1:47:57.200 They're not children, they're adults. They have fully formed a 1:47:57.439 --> 1:48:00.479 lot of their opinions in the world. But either kind 1:48:00.479 --> 1:48:03.880 of going outside with this newfound motivation to discover everything 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:06.439 that they've never known, This wild places that you grew 1:48:06.520 --> 1:48:09.280 up in you were lucky enough to have been presented 1:48:09.280 --> 1:48:11.760 to you when you were just a little one. What 1:48:11.800 --> 1:48:13.639 would you say to those folks that are going outside? 1:48:13.640 --> 1:48:15.519 When they go outside, what should they look for? What 1:48:15.560 --> 1:48:19.280 should how should they think and try to be as 1:48:19.360 --> 1:48:21.800 close to the land as possible. Don't go and sit 1:48:21.880 --> 1:48:26.040 in a blind, don't go stare mindlessly at a feeder. 1:48:27.280 --> 1:48:29.920 Take that rifle. If you're gonna hunt, take that shotgun, 1:48:30.080 --> 1:48:33.400 take the pistol, take the bow. Go out and read 1:48:33.520 --> 1:48:40.040 sign and and wonder why why that animal was walking 1:48:40.439 --> 1:48:43.800 or heading in that direction on that particular day. Why 1:48:43.920 --> 1:48:47.559 were there so many snake tracks today and not so yesterday. 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:51.240 Ask yourself the questions and try to find the answers, 1:48:52.000 --> 1:48:55.360 and and just be a thinker. And don't just don't 1:48:55.400 --> 1:48:57.120 don't just walk out of the gun and say I'm 1:48:57.160 --> 1:49:00.000 gonna go kill something and I'm gonna be happy because 1:49:00.040 --> 1:49:03.000 that's notice what it's about. Be a part of the land, 1:49:03.560 --> 1:49:08.320 and yeah, yeah, be be aware, be aware, be a 1:49:08.360 --> 1:49:13.080 part of the land, and be aware and appreciate uh 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:17.360 and have reverence. Yeah, I would prescribe your reverence through 1:49:17.360 --> 1:49:21.760 this place after I mean reverence from everything to road 1:49:21.840 --> 1:49:25.240 runners to quail. I know I I look at each 1:49:25.360 --> 1:49:29.360 at each creature, and I know it's it's uh the 1:49:29.439 --> 1:49:33.800 reason for its existence. I know its job. I know 1:49:33.840 --> 1:49:36.880 it's placed in the equal system, and I appreciate. I 1:49:36.880 --> 1:49:42.120 don't kill rattlesnakes, you know, I avoid them if unless 1:49:42.120 --> 1:49:44.800 I'm taking photographs. I mean, I've crawled down into a 1:49:44.880 --> 1:49:48.320 DNA rattlesnakes and they'll be teen or fifteen rattlesnakes all 1:49:48.360 --> 1:49:52.120 around me. But I just go down there to take photographs, 1:49:52.200 --> 1:49:54.839 and I get up and leave. I get my images. 1:49:55.760 --> 1:49:59.960 I've done, I've I've created, my've I've enacted my career 1:50:00.240 --> 1:50:03.320 duty for the day. And they didn't bite me, and 1:50:03.400 --> 1:50:06.400 for that I appreciate it. And so and I invaded 1:50:06.439 --> 1:50:09.679 their place, and so I leave, But I have reverence 1:50:09.680 --> 1:50:11.759 from them. Now. I don't want them in my house. 1:50:12.720 --> 1:50:16.640 I'd rather they they not be in my yard. But 1:50:16.760 --> 1:50:19.120 whenever I see him any place sales, I go, hey, 1:50:19.360 --> 1:50:22.559 you belong here. I have reverence for you, and I 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:26.080 know how to understand your job. Is there a way 1:50:26.120 --> 1:50:28.639 that you would because you talk a lot about last 1:50:28.760 --> 1:50:32.040 night at dinner and this morning and throughout this visit 1:50:32.080 --> 1:50:36.880 about how the difference and the types of people, types 1:50:36.920 --> 1:50:40.000 of humans in this world. You know, we label them 1:50:40.000 --> 1:50:44.679 with different labels, but there's there's We talked about soft 1:50:44.760 --> 1:50:47.400 and hard, we talked about liberal and republican. We talked 1:50:47.400 --> 1:50:50.840 about a lot of different types of people, but there 1:50:50.880 --> 1:50:54.679 certainly is people that enjoy wildlife, people enjoy going outside, 1:50:54.720 --> 1:50:57.840 people that don't do that. But as I said before, 1:50:57.880 --> 1:50:59.720 there's some chunk of people in the middle that just 1:51:00.640 --> 1:51:04.240 didn't have the you know, the luck or the circumstances 1:51:04.320 --> 1:51:07.439 that you had or even I've had in my life. Um, 1:51:07.479 --> 1:51:10.439 and they're curious, but never have never been presented that. 1:51:10.520 --> 1:51:13.000 How do you how do you feel after all your 1:51:13.080 --> 1:51:15.280 years of doing this that if somebody said, I have 1:51:15.400 --> 1:51:18.720 no idea about anything, I've not rarely ever been outside. 1:51:19.880 --> 1:51:23.640 Why do I approach this stuff? Well, you know, they 1:51:24.400 --> 1:51:29.640 need to to isolate the interest point, the point of 1:51:29.680 --> 1:51:33.800 interest that there that they they're seeking, read up on it, 1:51:33.840 --> 1:51:35.720 and then go out and just try to experience it. 1:51:36.360 --> 1:51:37.960 If you have to go to a state park, go 1:51:38.000 --> 1:51:42.360 to a national park, go high. But be observant, be 1:51:42.439 --> 1:51:49.720 aware and uh and and just be take notice, you know, 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:54.439 of of all your surroundings from the vegetation. Understand that 1:51:54.479 --> 1:51:58.200 there's plants that that that that blossom in the fall. 1:51:58.640 --> 1:52:01.919 Why do they there's there's plants that blossom and nightfall 1:52:02.000 --> 1:52:06.120 and not during the daytime, you know, and and recognize that, 1:52:07.040 --> 1:52:10.799 study it and recognize that that some plants are essential 1:52:10.880 --> 1:52:14.360 for the existence of some species of animals. You know, 1:52:14.760 --> 1:52:20.280 understand that that that sticky lope bush with forns three 1:52:20.280 --> 1:52:26.000 inches long that produces that little berry, little purple berry 1:52:26.080 --> 1:52:29.760 that has a consistency of a near rotten apple, is 1:52:29.760 --> 1:52:32.800 one of the most sought after food atom items of 1:52:32.880 --> 1:52:36.760 coats in May in early June. That's just on the land. 1:52:37.800 --> 1:52:40.360 And know that all those mesquite beans daming from the 1:52:40.600 --> 1:52:45.040 from the limbs will soon be eaten by deer, wild hogs. 1:52:44.760 --> 1:52:49.080 It uh it u is an essential food item for 1:52:49.160 --> 1:52:53.559 all these animals. Unfortunately, some of them spread that its 1:52:53.640 --> 1:52:58.160 seed while also like the coat. When they eat a 1:52:58.160 --> 1:53:02.040 mesquite being, they virtually kill the viability of that seed. 1:53:02.880 --> 1:53:06.000 And people don't know that. It's amazing how many people 1:53:06.040 --> 1:53:08.439 around here thinking what kind spread p squite? I don't know. 1:53:08.479 --> 1:53:11.720 They don't hell I was involved in research and we've 1:53:11.720 --> 1:53:17.080 proved otherwise. Cattle spread it. They actually scarify the seed 1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:20.920 to where it grows better and faster, but when it 1:53:20.960 --> 1:53:25.479 goes through the couch uh digestive system, it kills the seed. 1:53:26.760 --> 1:53:30.479 Understand small things like that and just learn begin at 1:53:30.520 --> 1:53:34.880 the bottom. Begins slow with easy things, and work your 1:53:34.920 --> 1:53:39.080 way up. It takes time. It's taking me sixty seven 1:53:39.160 --> 1:53:44.599 years to get to this point. It's not an overnight thing. Yeah. 1:53:44.640 --> 1:53:48.160 I think that's with people that are either new or 1:53:48.160 --> 1:53:50.240 trying to get into this thing. That's what that's what 1:53:50.360 --> 1:53:54.679 it is. It's a discipline, very discipline, and it takes time. 1:53:54.880 --> 1:53:57.799 It takes time. I see that a lot in in people, 1:53:57.840 --> 1:54:01.800 and like say, for instance, rights photographers, I'll see that 1:54:01.840 --> 1:54:03.960 a lot in young ones, very young with just starting out. 1:54:04.240 --> 1:54:08.840 They want to go from A to Z, not A B, C, D, 1:54:08.840 --> 1:54:12.080 E f G. Yeah, that's not the way it works. 1:54:13.200 --> 1:54:17.200 It's very disciplined. You have to go through the stages 1:54:18.400 --> 1:54:21.760 and uh. And otherwise you're gonna be a flash in 1:54:21.800 --> 1:54:25.040 the pan. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. I mean today you 1:54:25.640 --> 1:54:29.679 have this do you have the internet, that's this wealth 1:54:29.720 --> 1:54:32.520 of information, but it's also this wealth of perspective or 1:54:32.560 --> 1:54:34.360 you see this guy's doing that, this guy's doing that's 1:54:34.840 --> 1:54:37.160 get lost in what everybody else might be doing, and 1:54:37.240 --> 1:54:39.720 I forget that. You have to change stiff to your 1:54:39.760 --> 1:54:42.920 own path, stick to your path, and understand that if 1:54:42.960 --> 1:54:44.640 you have a passion and you follow it, you'll get 1:54:44.640 --> 1:54:48.360 there eventually, get there tomorrow, right Uh. And you struggle. 1:54:48.360 --> 1:54:51.600 Awhile with that struggles damn good struggles, struggles worth it. 1:54:51.640 --> 1:54:55.440 If you if you stay stay hooked, well you've you 1:54:55.480 --> 1:54:59.400 certainly live the outdoor life. And and for them for 1:54:59.440 --> 1:55:04.720 Fielding Stream to call you that was that was pretty cool. Yeah, 1:55:04.920 --> 1:55:07.360 that was cool. I remember a guy I'd forgotten all 1:55:07.400 --> 1:55:10.040 about it, and a writer I think from hours somewhere. 1:55:11.560 --> 1:55:14.320 He called and he said, I'm I'm doing interviews with 1:55:14.400 --> 1:55:19.240 ten guys from Feeling. I picked my film stream and 1:55:19.280 --> 1:55:21.960 so I interviewed with him and totally forgot about it. 1:55:22.640 --> 1:55:24.960 And then a friend of mine, Ol Brothers, who's an 1:55:25.000 --> 1:55:27.360 old time or eight eighties, some fine years old South 1:55:27.360 --> 1:55:29.840 Takes has called me. When they said, have you seen 1:55:29.880 --> 1:55:34.600 film stream? I said no, it's well, you need to 1:55:34.600 --> 1:55:38.600 see it. I said, okay, al, I'll gave me a coffee. 1:55:39.160 --> 1:55:41.760 He said, you're in it. I said, well, what did 1:55:41.840 --> 1:55:44.360 I do? And he told me he said, you were 1:55:44.400 --> 1:55:48.040 Slavis one of the top ten outdoor legends in America. 1:55:48.560 --> 1:55:52.680 And I went really, And then then I went, I 1:55:53.480 --> 1:55:58.680 remember the guy interviewed me, and it was cool. It's 1:55:58.800 --> 1:56:01.440 it's really special, lant I appreciate it. And I think 1:56:01.520 --> 1:56:05.040 that was the last published issue all the risk of 1:56:05.080 --> 1:56:06.960 its own lane. I think. So there's something that that 1:56:07.080 --> 1:56:10.600 was online the part that I've read, but that gave 1:56:10.640 --> 1:56:12.760 me a smile. I thought, yeah, that's right, I got 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:16.280 the hard copy. I got the last hard copy. Right. Well, 1:56:16.320 --> 1:56:20.760 I mean, there's no way to help folks understand like 1:56:21.040 --> 1:56:24.040 your ethos. So hopefully this conversation has but your ethos 1:56:24.040 --> 1:56:26.000 and your way of life and how that's led you 1:56:26.040 --> 1:56:29.000 to where you are. But is there one philosophy or 1:56:29.080 --> 1:56:31.920 ideology that you've had. I mean, we've talked about the 1:56:31.920 --> 1:56:34.720 hard work and the work ethic. Is there some parallel 1:56:34.800 --> 1:56:38.200 philosophy that we can end with that'll that'll really don't 1:56:38.200 --> 1:56:40.200 really wrap it up. A lot of pressure now, I know. 1:56:40.960 --> 1:56:47.520 Just I mean basically basically, it's uh having willingness to 1:56:47.560 --> 1:56:49.600 work hard and have that pack. You've got to have 1:56:49.680 --> 1:56:53.880 a passion. I remember an old photographer one time that 1:56:53.920 --> 1:56:57.600 I met from Medicine Lodge, Kansas, and I was just 1:56:58.320 --> 1:57:02.920 in early years and and we were out together on 1:57:02.960 --> 1:57:06.000 a ranch shooting photographs. It was early in the morning 1:57:07.400 --> 1:57:09.920 and the cowboys are saddling up for the sun came 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:12.040 up and I was up on a hill ready to 1:57:12.040 --> 1:57:15.640 start shooting and he told me later, I said, well, 1:57:15.680 --> 1:57:18.040 I don't know. You know, this is a hard, hard business, 1:57:18.080 --> 1:57:21.520 and he said, you'll do well. You've got a fire 1:57:21.520 --> 1:57:27.360 in your gut. I'll never forget that. Yeah, well, I 1:57:27.360 --> 1:57:29.440 mean I can. I thank you because you know, I'm 1:57:29.480 --> 1:57:31.760 getting ready to move out of Texas and then go 1:57:31.840 --> 1:57:35.960 on another little adventure here with my family. But it's 1:57:36.120 --> 1:57:37.920 it's been good to visit with you. The times I've 1:57:37.920 --> 1:57:39.720 been able to do it here, it's been an honor 1:57:39.800 --> 1:57:43.360 for me. You've been You've been special for me, and 1:57:43.360 --> 1:57:45.400 and I'm glad our paths crossed some time and go 1:57:45.560 --> 1:57:48.200 with with with the Winchester co hunt. Well, I'll always 1:57:48.240 --> 1:57:51.080 be able to say that. I think we sat fifteen 1:57:51.120 --> 1:57:54.240 maybe fifteen kyat stands in our time together, and I 1:57:54.240 --> 1:57:56.840 think you called it sixteen kIPS. Now, I didn't always 1:57:56.840 --> 1:57:59.600 do my job. Well, I didn't always do my job 1:57:59.600 --> 1:58:04.000 with them, right, we all miss believe me. My notes 1:58:04.040 --> 1:58:07.520 don't tell about Missy's. There's no book of miss No, 1:58:08.040 --> 1:58:12.280 come on, I could have a book of mrs that long. 1:58:12.320 --> 1:58:17.240 But yeah, it's you know, I always think of through 1:58:17.320 --> 1:58:20.320 my lifetime that there's people you meet and there's impacts 1:58:20.320 --> 1:58:22.760 that people have on you and just the person that 1:58:22.800 --> 1:58:24.520 you are. It means a lot to me, lots a 1:58:24.520 --> 1:58:28.920 lot of people, And I hope I hope that that 1:58:30.880 --> 1:58:35.440 I hope that my story inspires because I as the 1:58:35.480 --> 1:58:38.680 older I get, the more I realize that it is 1:58:39.080 --> 1:58:42.360 important to share a story that will give people inspiration, 1:58:42.400 --> 1:58:47.680 because too many individuals I've met over the years have 1:58:47.800 --> 1:58:52.000 a story of sadness, especially in the end years, and 1:58:52.040 --> 1:58:56.160 they wish they would have And many times after one 1:58:56.160 --> 1:58:59.560 of my presentations, I've heard people say I wish I 1:58:59.600 --> 1:59:03.520 would have Yeah, yeah, I mean it's if you fill 1:59:03.560 --> 1:59:05.720 your fill your cup up with love and passion, hard 1:59:05.720 --> 1:59:09.320 work man, try to treat other people good, be fair 1:59:09.400 --> 1:59:13.480 with other people. That that also was very important, you know, 1:59:13.720 --> 1:59:17.960 the and and and it will it will be reciprocated. Yeah. 1:59:18.120 --> 1:59:20.880 Then if you want to really kill coyotes, then just 1:59:21.080 --> 1:59:22.440 give a woman a call and get one of this 1:59:23.440 --> 1:59:27.120 and then hand carved open. Yeah. Wait, we're starting a 1:59:27.120 --> 1:59:30.800 new deal. I'm gonna I'm gonna actually send a photograph 1:59:31.200 --> 1:59:35.000 with eat with each purchase, a photograph of of one 1:59:35.000 --> 1:59:37.240 of my months at Batch Camp in the seventies of 1:59:37.280 --> 1:59:40.400 black and white old kind of a tin type version 1:59:40.840 --> 1:59:45.960 of me standing there with the furs, and also a note, uh, 1:59:45.960 --> 1:59:51.120 out of my kill notes Oh wow, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. 1:59:51.840 --> 1:59:54.080 We'll go yeah, Wyman Menser dot com? Is that where 1:59:54.080 --> 1:59:56.200 you go? Men dot com? I'd go there if I 1:59:56.280 --> 1:59:59.880 was at somebody listened to this age there. I hope, 2:00:00.000 --> 2:00:02.120 I hope you'll come and visit. All right, Thank you 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:07.840 very much, thank you. That's it. That's all. Episode number 2:00:07.880 --> 2:00:12.120 twenty four is in the books. Thank you to woman, 2:00:12.160 --> 2:00:17.040 Men's here, Thank you to Texas. Thank you to the 2:00:17.040 --> 2:00:19.280 folks of Benjamin Texas for having me feed me your 2:00:19.280 --> 2:00:24.560 wonderful foods and let me ah meet your native son 2:00:24.680 --> 2:00:28.400 once again. Wyoman mens Uh. Woman and his wife Salinda 2:00:28.480 --> 2:00:32.200 are I would consider friends of mine good friends of mine. Uh. 2:00:32.320 --> 2:00:35.640 Woman is, for lack of a better term, a mentors 2:00:35.640 --> 2:00:38.280 to me, someone who has taught me a lot through 2:00:38.440 --> 2:00:40.400 just the way he's lived his life, taught me a 2:00:40.480 --> 2:00:44.440 lot through our own interactions. So if you ever make it, 2:00:44.520 --> 2:00:46.840 Benjamin Texas, stop by, I'm sure why. I'm gonna be 2:00:46.880 --> 2:00:49.600 happy to give you towards the jail house. I'm happy 2:00:49.680 --> 2:00:52.280 to show you his work and talk about his life, 2:00:52.600 --> 2:00:57.320 which is extraordinary. Until next time, we'll continue our towards 2:00:57.320 --> 2:00:59.200 through Texas. We're gonna talk to a man named Russell 2:00:59.440 --> 2:01:05.160 hunting Men Russell Cunningham being a amateur archaeologist that lives 2:01:05.200 --> 2:01:08.000 in near my home in Trippic Springs, Texas, and he 2:01:08.040 --> 2:01:10.680 has quite the collection of artifacts to share with us. 2:01:11.200 --> 2:01:13.560 So stick with us in the meantime the Hunting Collected 2:01:13.640 --> 2:01:17.560 dot com podcast articles videos. There you'll find a lot 2:01:17.560 --> 2:01:21.160 of stuff hopefully you'll enjoy. Stick with us. We're gonna 2:01:21.240 --> 2:01:24.120 keep this conversation rolling. Thank you so much for listen.