1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number twenty four of The 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: Hunting Collective. I'm been O'Brien today. I'm gonna start a 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: little bit of a journey, uh, a journey and podcast 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: for him, but a journey nonetheless my family and I. 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: Hopefully you have heard this by now, or if you're listening, 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: you may have caught wind a bit. We are moving 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: from Texas to Montana. Um, why are we moving Texas Montana? Well, 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: Montana is a beautiful place, a beautiful place to raise 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: your children, a beautiful place to recreate, a beautiful place 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: to hunt, a beautiful place to fish in a place 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: that I've always desired to spend my life, even from 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: when I was a little kid. I used to my 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: dad used to watch with us Lonesome Dub the miniseries 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: when I was a kid. I must have watched it 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: hundreds of times over my life. And those folks I 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: thought about Montana much the way I think about Montana. 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: This great frontier. This is a place to live your 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: life and the things you want to do. And those 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: guys and Loan some Dove, those cowboys went from Texas 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: to Montana. And so that's what I'm going to do. 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 1: But before I leave Texas, I want to have conversations 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: with people that are important to me during my time here, 23 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: but also important to this place because this is a 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: place where my son was born. This is the place 25 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: where I was privileged enough to work for a company 26 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: called Yetti Cool. This is a place where I was 27 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: privileged enough to um core and expand as a person, 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: and that means more to me than than this place 29 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: will ever understand or I would probably ever understand. So 30 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: the next few podcasts will be in Texas, and they 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: will be with people that I think speak to my 32 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: time here, but also the state and it's culture and 33 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: it's hunting Way, and so hopefully you enjoy um My 34 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: victory lab is not a good term my final lab 35 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: in Texas and get to explore are some new people 36 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: in places with me before we go. So, without further ado, 37 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: the first person on my list to talk to in 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: this Texas Final Lap was Wyman Men's. Wyman Men's are, 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: if you don't know him, is an extraordinary human being, 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: and he's extraordinary in many many ways. His life and 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: times are exceptional. He is a man of great faith 42 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: in the outdoors. He is a man of great creativity. 43 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: He's a man that that is exceptional and what he 44 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: can build and and his photography and his hunting life. 45 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: So what you're about to hear is Wyman men'ser, legendary 46 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: Texas kyote hunter, state photographer and a man of many schemes. 47 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: So you're about to hear this man, a man that 48 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: is very special to me. Hopefully you learn about his 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: life and in doing so, learn a little bit about 50 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: his connection to check in my connection to him. So 51 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: without dude, Episode number twenty four, menor Wimon and Sarah 52 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: being Now are you sir? I'm well, thank you. Oh 53 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: we're in Benjamin, Texas, are we not? Yes, sir, you 54 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: lived here your entire entire life. Yes, I was raised 55 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: on a ranch about eleven miles out of Benjamin. Yeah. 56 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: You don't have to tell your age, but yeah, sixty 57 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: seven years old. I'll go ahead and be honest. I 58 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: didn't want to pressure you in anything at all. Uh. Well, 59 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: that's an impressive that's an impressive feet given a lot 60 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: of times today. You know, guys my age don't stick 61 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: around their home place very very often. Yeah. Um, you know, 62 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: I really didn't think that I would once I got 63 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: out of college. Um, I wasn't went to Texas Tech University, 64 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: but it came back and circumstances were such that that 65 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: I felt like this would be a good place to headquarter. 66 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: And it worked out, yeah, in spades, in spades. Well, 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, might as well start at the very beginning. 68 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: You grew up here, uh with a brother and a sister, right, Um, 69 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: you grew up on a ranch not far from here, 70 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: and tell you, just tell me about growing up and 71 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: and you call it the big empty Well we uh 72 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: the ranch that uh that we were reared on as 73 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: a twenty seven thousand acre, which is not a big 74 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: outfit in this part of the country, but it's it's 75 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: a decent size, definitely good for a couple of buys 76 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: to be raised on. My dad was a foreman there 77 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 1: and he was there for thirty years and uh raised 78 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: up as a as a cowboy and learned to to 79 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: work cattle and break horses in the whole deal. And uh, 80 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: but my main love was wash was hunting and studying 81 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: the natural history of various species. And I was always 82 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: going and collecting bird eggs and inspecting birds that I 83 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: had to shot with a bb gun and and uh 84 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: a key and them out and it it lent to 85 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: to what I'm I'm doing today for for sure. Yeah. 86 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: And we were talking about this at breakfast this morning, 87 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, and even and over whiskey last night, about 88 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: growing up in that environment and what that, how that 89 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: shapes you, and what that makes you, the grit that 90 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: it gives you, the drive and work hard. I mean 91 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: you were raised at a hard work and hard scramble 92 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: and life this country, you know it it's pressure, I 93 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: mean it is it's it's not an easy place to live. Um. Uh. 94 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: You know, we find a lot of old house places 95 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 1: we found there on the ranch. Um in the early 96 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, people really came in here in droves and 97 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, um farmed, you know, cut out a little 98 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: piece of parcel of land and tried to farm it. 99 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: And through time the land pretty well, um weeded out 100 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: to where it's now probably at its carrying capacity. Early on, 101 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: it was it was just you know, overgrazed more or less, 102 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: I guess you could say. And so even today though, 103 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: it's hard because you know, it's just mostly big ranch 104 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: country and uh, ranching practices have changed. You don't need 105 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: as many people working on ranches and So the town 106 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: of Benjamin itself used to be a population of like 107 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: six hundred. Now it's like two. But that's basically what 108 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: it what it should be. And so my dad and 109 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: mom were both raised in the Depression years, raised hard. 110 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: My dad was on the large Emily and that where 111 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: they parceled out the kids to other families where they 112 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: could have enough to eat. My mom lived in dugouts 113 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: and tents during the Depression. She has bad memories about it, 114 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: but they were resilient people. And they taught my brother 115 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: and I, especially my brother and I my sister not 116 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: so much, but taught us, you know, how to how 117 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: to be independent and to appreciate doing things for yourself. 118 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: And I appreciate that very much and it's and it's uh, 119 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: it's been good good to me because so much of 120 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: my life revolves around, you know, uh, doing things your 121 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: own way and trying to figure things out and uh 122 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: and to make it work, make do yeah. Yeah, I 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: mean the early part of your story is very much 124 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: just you know, the life most kids would dream about, right, 125 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean, a roaming around this country on horseback, roaming 126 00:07:53,720 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: at will your parents to uh did not um, you know, 127 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: stay on you constantly you know, where are you going? 128 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: It was just like, watch for rattlesnakes. That that was 129 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: the warning when we were kids. When you go outside, y'all, 130 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: watch for rattlesnakes. And if you got a half a 131 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: mile from the house with your baby gun or you're 132 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: twenty two and mothers missed you, will she'd host jard 133 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: holler and you could hear a mile away. She had 134 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: a shrill voice, and you knew it was time to 135 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: come back home. But they just didn't keep a rain 136 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: tight rain on you. You were allowed to go out 137 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: and be yourself and explore and be creative and in 138 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: doing uh fighting things to do. And it was it was. 139 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: It was a good thing. It's a good life. Well, 140 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: I mean you got a good power of description. I 141 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: mean describe for people listening that I've never been to 142 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: this country. Of course, this is north You go on 143 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: north central Texas and I would say, um, what this 144 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: country looks like. I mean that the I think, the land, 145 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: the animals, just the feeling of being here. Well, uh, 146 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: first off, whether wise, it's we have some fairly cool 147 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: cold winters, very hot summers, so it's it's kind of 148 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: one extreme to the other. Um it. We have a 149 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: thousands of acres what they call the bad lands and 150 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: local bad lands, Knox County bad lands and uh it's 151 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: it's just the old red beds, ancient red beds, uh 152 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: apparently old river beds, because you'll find uh gravel, layers 153 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: of gravel, and the edges of the cliffs with a 154 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: lot of of mammoth bones. I've actually had paleontologies come 155 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: out and I show them these skeletons and they say, yes, 156 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: that's mammo, that's that's camel as the ancient horse bones. 157 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: And then you have your your deep soil sites where 158 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot of mesquite. The bad lands pretty well 159 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: um is uh um dominated by by juniper. And then 160 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: your your deep soil size from mesquite and to boast 161 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: of grass, buffalo grass. We have whitetailed deer, a lot 162 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: of wild of wild farrell hogs, a lot of coats 163 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: and um and quite a few bobcats. We don't have 164 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: any foxes to speak of. They live more or less 165 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: in the in town where they're where they're protected from 166 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: coats because coats even like hot dogs, they hang out 167 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: at the bars, so they they hang out in people's 168 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: garages up in the attics because if they get out 169 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: of town, the coats eat them. And because we have 170 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: in the wintertime and this is a central flyway, so 171 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: we have a good, uh, a good population of snow 172 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: geese and the and the Canadians come through. Not a 173 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: lot of ducks. Back in the sixties, you know, I've 174 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: seen a transition in the in the waterfowl, the makeup 175 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: of the water waterfowl population. In the sixties, it was 176 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: just the opposite. We had a lot of crane saniel, 177 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: cranes that stayed here through the winter, tremendous almost unimaginable 178 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: numbers of green heads, canvasbacks, and a few uh, Canadian geese. 179 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: And now it's just reversed. We have a few cranes 180 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: come in early along with your your teal and and 181 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: and those little species, and then the cranes move on 182 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: up to the panhandle, right, and then the ducks they 183 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: just we just don't have the duck numbers we did 184 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: in the sixties. And I don't understand why, because we've 185 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: got as much or more water, but it may have 186 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: they switched they've switched their flyaway there fat well, I mean, 187 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: that's a good description of this place, and I mean 188 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: it's it's shaped you in a lot of ways. It has, 189 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: um you know, like I say, growing up on the 190 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: ranch and and being raised as as an independent person. 191 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: And of course when I went to Texas Tech, I 192 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: studied while biology and then whenever I left, instead of 193 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: getting a job, I became a coon hunter, professional Kyan 194 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: hunter and living out on a pitchfork ranch and a 195 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: half dug out. And there's where you really became independent 196 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: because you know, you go into town once week to 197 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: get groceries and um, and basically you were your own man. 198 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: I mean there was there was nobody to ask questions to, 199 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: nobody to talk to to exchange ideas with. It was 200 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: just you in the land. Yeah, I want to go 201 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: through that specifically specific but I don't know if you've 202 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: ever talked about other than the time you told me 203 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: the first time you saw a hippie on the Texas 204 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: the first time you encountered a hippie who was having 205 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: a deep conversation with some fire and it was some 206 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: red ants, some harvest dance, so he was probably having 207 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: a good talk with him apparently. So they're circumstances exactly. Um, 208 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: But you went to Texas Tech and wildlife biology was 209 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: the choice of trade. Was that just because the intense 210 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: connection you had to this place and the animals, all 211 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: those things, that's what drove you to that. And then yes, 212 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: and the study of that kind of reaffirmed right. And 213 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: I knew that. I knew there were no job opportunities. 214 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: I was aware of that at the time, and but 215 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: I was determined to get a degree in wildlife apology 216 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: while back then they called it wildlife management. And um 217 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: but uh uh, you know, I mean I could have 218 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: been a cowboy. Heaven forbid. I mean, I respect, I 219 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: love cowboys. I love that life way. I still um 220 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: across paths wism work with them in some of my 221 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: photo shoots. I can speak their language. It's just that 222 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: I've smelled enough horse flat horse swept my life. It's 223 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: just that I really loved working with with wild creatures. 224 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: That and I actually aspired at one time to be 225 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: a paleontologist and found out that it took too much math, 226 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: and so I'm not a mathematician. That I I still 227 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: have a great interest in paleontology. Yeah. Well, that so 228 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: you graduated from college, you go through the process there 229 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: and you decide pretty much immediately right too, to come 230 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: back become a professional hunter. You lived in a in 231 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: a it was a dugout. There's a little half dugout. 232 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: It was built in nineteen forty eight when the Pitchfork 233 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: bought that portion of the ranch from the Matador. And 234 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: I actually I actually knew uh the man who helped 235 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: build it in nineteen and and so um uh it was, 236 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: um just a little one room shack with a fireplace 237 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: in the end. And uh partially you know, the windows 238 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: up was out of the ground and the windows down 239 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: was below ground. And it was in the middle of 240 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty eight thousand ranch, a Pacer ranch, 241 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: And of course I had surrounding ranches that I hunted on. Also, Uh, 242 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: you had the bags fifty thousand acres, and you had 243 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: and uh an old fellow name of Hubert Young, and 244 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: he had ten thousand acres. And then you had the 245 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: springer was forty thousand and another ten thousand acre wrench. 246 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: And that was before commercial hunting. I was the only 247 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: guy out there. I never heard a rifle shot, I 248 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: never saw another person hunting. The years that I spent 249 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: three winners that I spent actually five winners. I spent 250 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: three winners living in the dugout, and then two other 251 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: winners hunting out there still working out of Benjamin. I 252 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: never saw anybody else hunning. And it was it was 253 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: like you stepped back into the eighteenth, eighteen hundreds, and 254 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. You're living in a You're living in a 255 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: one room dugout. Very much that was very much akin 256 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: to win was built in the forties, right, I'm seeing pictures. 257 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: I mean it is. It was literally a one room 258 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: hole in the in the side of the hill and 259 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: you're you get up every morning, you were running traplines 260 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: me and just talked about the daily life. Because I 261 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: think we've talked a lot about this in this visit 262 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: when we visited a bunch of times, but in this 263 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: particularly visit a lot about what how soft our life 264 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: is right now? You know, my like, how how I'm 265 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: trying to escape the softest of life by going out 266 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: and hunting. You came out of college and plunged into 267 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: the headlong into the hardest, hardest life imaginable. It was. 268 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: You know, of course I didn't. I didn't going to 269 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: a dog pool slate or anything like that. I had 270 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: my forward drift pick up. But every morning was it 271 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: was a ritual. Every every day I took out when 272 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: I when I moved in, I took five thousand rounds 273 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: of twin two ammunition and a couple of hundred rounds 274 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: a high powered rifle to shoot my coys. With my 275 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: twenty two, I used to dispatch animals and trapped in practice, 276 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: and of course my my food stuff. And then in 277 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: the mornings, I would get get up before daylight, eat breakfast, 278 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: fixed my lunch, same lunch every day, a summer sausage sandwich, 279 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: canteena water, and a peanut peanut patty candy bar that 280 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: I would not eat a piece of it until I 281 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: caught an animal. When I called a code, I would 282 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: break a piece off to reward myself. And all day 283 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: I went along the trap line like fifty sixty miles. 284 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: And then when I got back to cabin in the evening, 285 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: I skinned stretched and if I had enough time, I 286 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: would practice shooting with my Winchester and mountain and uh. 287 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: Then I cut for firewood, draw my water for that night, 288 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: for either a bath on it took one bath week, 289 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: or washing dishes, and then I would finish dinner, wash 290 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: the dishes right in my journal, sit in front of 291 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: the fire, and then go to it every night, seven 292 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: days a week, thirty days a month, all winter along. 293 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: That's what that was alive. And it was great. I 294 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: loved it, Yeah, I loved it. First winter was fabulous. 295 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: Second winner got a little tougher. Third winter was real 296 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: tough because I've become a little bit more uh social, 297 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: and living down there, you were pretty restricted. I mean 298 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: you're a young man at this point, right, you know 299 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: I needed to see somebody, Yeah, and so every once 300 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: in a while cowboy would come by and I'd say 301 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: hi to him and be able to talk to him. 302 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: But other than that, I'd go to a day or 303 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: two days without saying anything. And that that kind of 304 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: got to you after a while. Yeah, I imagine it would. 305 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: So you're killing coyotes, bobcats. You're you're earning money right 306 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: from from the pelts, right, So you were how many coyotes, 307 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: uh among how many kods a season? And how many boats? Well, 308 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: how much money would you make? Well, you know, we 309 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: did our coats here in Texas weren't worth that much. 310 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: You were fifteen bucks piece, but I needed to make 311 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: four I need to catch four animal units today, and 312 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: I considered an animal unit. A code bobcat was worth 313 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: two animal units, a fox three quarters of a unit. 314 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: And uh, with four animal units today, I could make 315 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: my pickup payment, my college loan payment, and buy groceries 316 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: and have some spending money. And so my goal was 317 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: to at four animal units today and I did a 318 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: lot of people nowadays say I'm a professional hunter. That 319 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: is what you were. It was professionally that was hunting, right, Yeah, 320 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: I mean what I ask many questions about that time 321 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: in your life. But one of my I always thought 322 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: was like, what are your main takeaways? Because well, I'll 323 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: tell you. You know, uh, you know, with age, you 324 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, you you become mellowed out and you don't 325 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: hunt as much. But I can look back on those 326 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: years and realize that hunting at that level it is. 327 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: People can't fathom being that involved in hunting today, uh, 328 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: back in the eighteen hundred year, But you become so 329 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: you become so involved in the natural history of the 330 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: species that you were after every I mean every track. 331 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: You know, you studied the tracks, you studied the what 332 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: you thought was the time of day or night. The 333 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: tracts were made you watched weather patterns. Uh, you anticipated 334 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: animal movements in accordance to weather patterns. Uh, you learned 335 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: that cos travel in certain areas in the daytime versus nighttime. 336 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: And your average person today who goes out and quote hunts, 337 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: has no idea of that level of understanding of the 338 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 1: natural history of animals that you have to that you 339 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: have to have in order to be a professional hunter. Yeah, 340 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: and and it's I wouldn't trade for those years. Well 341 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: not only did or your professional hunter, but you were 342 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: as a biologist logging your kills exactly. I took all. 343 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: I was very much a note taker, and and I 344 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: would document each animal, Uh, you know, at the distance 345 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: that I shot it, or the trap I caught it in, 346 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: what foot I caught it on, and um, and I 347 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: still have all those that information today from all all 348 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: the way back in the journals. Now I've I've with 349 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: a rifle. I've shot one thousand, seven hundred and sixty 350 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 1: with the rifle alone, and I was not counting traps. 351 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: It was another hundred or sold with traps, eight hundred 352 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: and seventy seven bobcats, and so you know, and and 353 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: it's something and it's not something that I'm necessarily proud 354 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: of it. Is just that was a way of life. Yeah, 355 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, And and as like I said, as an 356 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: older person, I don't hunt like I used to. I 357 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: have a softer heart then I used to. That's always 358 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: the most interesting storyline about you know, when I think 359 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: about your life, which is this tremendous tapestry of you know, 360 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: it's something that's to be admired really and in all 361 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: its stages. But when you're when you're back there and 362 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: you're killing these kaiaks for a living. You know, a 363 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: lot of people nowadays might say, well, what a terrible thing. 364 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: You're out there and just taking life and wholesale and 365 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: make money and you're selling furs, and you know, in 366 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: the modern day that might be looked at as as 367 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: a negative to the landscape. But describe in that place 368 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: in time, you know, how you thought about the animal. 369 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: You respect for it. I mean, I know just from 370 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: knowing you that that's the case I did have and 371 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: I still do. I mean, I'll always have great respect 372 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: for the cord. I think they're very intelligent, uh uh 373 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: an animal that uh they can make those make the 374 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: changes with man, whereas the wolf could not. And they 375 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: were pretty well exterminated from Texas. But the cowt is 376 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: uh very adaptive and very sharp, and so early on 377 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: the one of the reasons that I started taking notes 378 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: was that I just wanted to learn more about them. 379 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: And so the earliest notes came whenever I was in 380 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: uh like a sophomore attach and I wanted to become 381 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: a better code hunter, and so I thought, well, I'm 382 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: going to have to understand the feeding habits of code. 383 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: So I conducted a full year of research on my 384 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: own by collecting stomach samples, fecal samples, and uh documenting 385 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: the areas um separating them by vegetation, topographical, geoogy, geological features. 386 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: And then I received a grant to study another year 387 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: and so um, you know, all of this, this note 388 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: taking has been a very positive thing because to this day, 389 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: I'll sit down, I'll get bored some day and just 390 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: sitting with all those notes and go through them just 391 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: to remember and and uh, and I'll see things that 392 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: I've forgotten, you know, in in thirty years since I've 393 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: seen them, and it's uh, he just continues to be 394 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: a learning process even after all these years. I mean, 395 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: didn't when you were a professional hunter. Back in those 396 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: days you're living in a dugout. Do you remember having 397 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: Do you have any of that? Do you sit here 398 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: now and your grandfather and time has passed, you look 399 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: back and have any remorse for for the animals you killed? Yes, yes, 400 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: I do. I do. I I can recall some instances, 401 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: especially one one day that that touched my heart into 402 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: this day, and that has been forty four years ago, 403 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: to this day still tugged at my heart and um. 404 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: And it was the cod caught in a trap and 405 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: uh and I don't know that that cod he just 406 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: he just sat there and just and just looked at me. 407 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: I didn't try to fight. And then whenever I I 408 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: dispatched it, there there was there was a look of 409 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: helplessness that it knew it was going down. And and 410 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: I sat down in my pickup and cried. After all 411 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: those all those animals had taken, that particular animal made 412 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: me sit down in my pickup and cry. And to 413 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: this day I still think about it. It tugs at 414 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: my heart. And another one in particular is one of 415 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: the first really neat shot photographs I'd take him because 416 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: at that time I was working on my photography. I 417 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: remember I called him in the J two pasture on 418 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: the pitch for a real rough country, just savagely rough country. 419 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: And it was at the dead end of an old 420 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: bulldozed road and I caught this big mail code and 421 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: I mean he stood up and fought me like a lyon. 422 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean I got out of the pick up and 423 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: he was snarling. He was caught up in a number 424 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: four new house trap, no way of getting out. And 425 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: I had the greatest respect for that animal. And I 426 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: pulled a camera out and took a photograph of him, 427 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: and I mean, he's got his teeth bared and he's 428 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: just saying, you know, I know this is it? Bring 429 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: it home. And and I still think of that, that animal, 430 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: and that that that bravery that he showed in the 431 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: face of death. That picture was selected by Texas Monthly 432 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: as one of the greatest pictures of twenty five years 433 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: that they had published a magazine. Wow. Yeah, I mean 434 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: that that's a great I find myself. I'm not I 435 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: got a lot of years to live, hopefully a lot 436 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: of years to hunt. But I find myself examining those 437 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: those that relationship with the animals that you kill me 438 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: because you said you kill thousands upon thousands of these animals, 439 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that you don't have an emotional 440 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: connection to him. Uh today And and then, like I said, 441 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: it was just a way of life. Is a way 442 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: of life. What you did, it was a way of life. 443 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: And and uh and I also I was enjoying just 444 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: being a part of the land. You know, every day, 445 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: the sunsets, the sun rises, the weather changes. All of 446 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: those things still have an impact on me today. I 447 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: still refer back to those years and and what I learned, 448 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: and in the animal movements, animal patterns, like I can say, like, 449 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: for instance, a couple of days ago, I saw a 450 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: rattlesnake crawling. Anytime that I start seeing an immediate uh, 451 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 1: an increase in animal movement. When I'm walking in the mornings, 452 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: You'll start seeing various creatures. Tracks suddenly appear, and I'll 453 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: tell Slender my wife, we go, weather coming. And I 454 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: learned that from those years as a professional hunter, because 455 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: I studied, I lived and breathed those habits, those weather changes, 456 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: and how they affected animals behavior and uh and it 457 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: just and it still serves me today. Yeah, that's amazing. 458 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: You don't have to become an animal yourself. You're out there, yeah, 459 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: not not speaking for some days, and I'm sure you 460 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: can feel like that you're getting your own head. Yeah, 461 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: you're getting your own head big time. You better like yourself, 462 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: so all I can say you better like, yeah, you 463 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: better enjoy just you know, appreciate you being you, because 464 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna learn yourself. Did you I mean, when you 465 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: were doing that, did you think, Hey, look, forty years 466 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: from now, I'm gonna look back and there's gonna be 467 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: the golden years. Do you think, man, this is I'm 468 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: a crazy son picture for doing this. I mean, was 469 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: there a self realization at any point during this? Now 470 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: I realized that the days would end? And uh, I 471 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: remember drawing on the wall and it's been covered up 472 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: since then. It was the last few days of that 473 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: first winter, that first winner was the golden winter. That 474 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: was the best because I'd been seemingly all my life 475 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: in school. As most guys that go to college realized, 476 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: you go from them in my day's first grade to 477 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: college and there's no break. And he's like, I've been 478 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: going to school forever and I was sick of it 479 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: and men going out and being on your own, and 480 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: of course immersing yourself in the land with a rifle. 481 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: I always love to hunt. Wasn't that bigger fisherman, But 482 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: I love to hunt and uh and I love just big, 483 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: wide open country with with lots of elbow room. And 484 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: I realized something told me that first winter at the 485 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: end that my days were limited. This freedom would some 486 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: day in this this level of freedom. I mean, I'm 487 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: free and happy today, I'm doing what I want to do. 488 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: But back then, man, it was it was really indescribable. 489 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: And I drew on the door, on the closet door, 490 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: and that had a little tiny closet in the corner, 491 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: and that that dug out a dug out, and I 492 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: drew a cowd in a trap, and in the distance 493 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: were these two prominent hills called Double Mountains. They've been 494 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: they've been mentioned in in uh Ronald Mackenzie's books on 495 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: his fight with the Indians commands in eighteen seventies. They've 496 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: been landmarked for probably ten thousand years. But I could 497 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: see him in the distance from my trap line, and 498 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: I drew those hills, and I drew this kite in 499 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: a trap, and drag marks leading up to where he 500 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: had caught being caught up and couldn't go any further, 501 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: and I wrote beneath it, uh, something to the effect of, 502 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: to this end, let's see what was it? Uh? I too, 503 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: I too shall to realize this in meaning that this 504 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: grand life of freedom will someday be over. And uh 505 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: it got painted over a few years ago, and it 506 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: just makes me sick. I'm thinking about going back out 507 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: there and trying to redraw. Did you ever get a 508 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: photo of it? Or just I did not know? I 509 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: did not? Oh? Yeah, I mean that too. It was 510 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: to this end, I too shall pass, To this end, 511 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: I too shall pass, And it was a code and 512 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: a trap, and knowing that the end was near, and 513 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: seeing that great land or those heels in the distance, 514 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: and knowing the freedom and it would be over. And 515 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: that's the way I felt at the end of that 516 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: first winter. And it was true. I've never have never 517 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: been able to feel that kind of magic again. I've 518 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: had great life, wonderful life of of traveling and seeing 519 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: the land and going on ranches where nobody else hardly 520 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: ever goes but with a camera in hand. But there's 521 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: always that restriction now that I didn't have it back then. 522 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: I was young, totally completely healthy, lots of ammunition and 523 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: and more land than I knew what to do with. 524 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: And I've never known that sense. And of course, now 525 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: with commercial hunting taking over, that land doesn't exist anymore. 526 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: It's gone. I can still go to that cabin and 527 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm welcome to the rancher says, hey, go out there 528 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: and do whatever you wanna do. You know you're part 529 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: of this ranch as well. You think you're part of 530 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: the history. But all that country's lease. And so I 531 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: go down there and I work on the cabin. I'll 532 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: pop open a beer, eat some deer sausage, sat down 533 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: on the porch, and remember, and then I'll leave. I mean, 534 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: that isn't every person in some way chasing that sense 535 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: of freedom? Like not everybody knows exactly how they're gonna 536 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: get to it. Believe me, I whenever I give presentations 537 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: and I talk about I have one presentation that I 538 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: give quite often, and it's called the Evolution of a 539 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: Texas Photographer. And and I give that part of my 540 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: life and almost without failed, people come up to me, 541 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: older people especially, and say, how I wish I would 542 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: have taken the opportunity to do that, Because there's only 543 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: a small window of time. If I give presentations to 544 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: say to a college class, I will. I will every 545 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: time of the time. I will say, when you finish college, 546 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: you have this small window of opportunity to do exactly 547 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: what you want to do. And I said, when you 548 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: let that window pass, it's over your stab. You become 549 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: that's in that established line of life, you know, and 550 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: that so called rut, and it's hard to turn back. 551 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: I said, So, if you have any kind of a 552 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: a dream, you know, some heartfelt message that you want 553 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: to go try out for a year, do it. Because 554 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: it is sad to talk to those people who will 555 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: will visit with me and say I had that opportunity 556 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't take it. Yeah, but I can go 557 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: if I pass tomorrow. I have no regrets. I did 558 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: exactly what I wanted to do. And how much of 559 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: the rest of your life did that inform Knowing what 560 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: that freedom felt like, knowing what what the land did 561 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: for you, and what those animals would provide to you, 562 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: how much you know there's I don't think there's any 563 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: way you'd be where you are today with exactly I 564 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: mean it. It established the basis for what I do today. 565 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: Without doubt, I just use a camera and still arrived 566 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: from Why I still hunt, you know, I have uh 567 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: I I love venison and I'll kill my three or 568 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: four deer every winter, and uh I called up last winter, 569 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: I called up a hundred and seventy five cops, but 570 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: them I shot with a camera. I still shoot a 571 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: few just to maintain my log my data and entered 572 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: my log book so I can keep continuity. But most 573 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: of the time I hunt with camera. Yeah, and that's 574 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: you look back like you're in those days and you 575 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: have this. I mean, I think everybody, even me sitting 576 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: here now, I'm thinking like how beautiful time that must 577 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: have been. And everybody that listens to this can can 578 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: think about what they're ultimate freedom looks like and what 579 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: what the thing is that would would evoke those feelings 580 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: in them, because I think it sounds to me like 581 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: you knew during it that it was special and life 582 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: a life defining, but even even as you went on, 583 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: you would look back and it became more important as 584 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 1: it is. I I catch myself so often in times 585 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: of you know, uncertainty, I will just sit down and 586 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: I remember those years perspective. I mean, is that just 587 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: what it gave you right, he gave me. It gave 588 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 1: me perspective, and and it gives me solace today because 589 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: because I revisit and and almost become, you know, go 590 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: back to that time, and just even if it's for 591 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: an hour or so of sitting and reminiscing, I'm happy 592 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: again and I feel that freedom. And I can pick 593 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: up that same model line in four Winchester twenty two 594 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: and I shoot and it feels just like it did whenever. 595 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: Was just burning that five thousand rounds practicing and nineteen 596 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: seventy four, seventy five, seventy six, I need to burn 597 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: out a lot of barrels shooting like that. I burned 598 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: out three to forty three barrels in that in that 599 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: rifle that I had at the time. I was too 600 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: poored but own anything else but a two forty three, 601 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: that is, that was not a good fur rifle. I 602 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: learned how to be a real good seamstress or a seamster. 603 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: I could sew very well, and so I burned. But 604 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: I burned out three rifles and the two burned out 605 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 1: three barrels of two forty three. Well, I mean, so 606 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: moving on to the next portion of your life, I heard, 607 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: I heard tell from some people that you were a 608 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: wild man sometimes, uh you know, and that and that 609 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: actually that actually sourced from those years of doing that 610 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: type of thing. Of course, you know, I mean I 611 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: I became a pilot, and I would fly for ranchers 612 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: looking for cattle, and and you know, you'd fly much 613 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 1: like a bush pilot, low slow all the time, and 614 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: and I would do things in a plane and all this, 615 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: all these things combined sort of. There's guys today that 616 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: that I that I won't see for months, but when 617 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: they see him, they say, hey, wow, man, what's going on? 618 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: And I go, well, I'm just living you know, well 619 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: on that yetie filing there or some some I can't 620 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: remember who said it, but somebody said, my mama said, 621 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: don't don't be hanging out on that one. That was 622 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: That was Mike Gibson. He said, my daddy didn't like 623 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: me hanging out with you because because I, even as 624 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: a teenager, I pretty well danced my own drummer and 625 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: um and as and his father was pretty established, you know, 626 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,439 Speaker 1: you know in in this is the way life should 627 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: be a B C. D. And I wasn't following that. 628 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: I was jumping from A to E and and he 629 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: he didn't want his son going A to E. And 630 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: so it was the steps. So that time in your 631 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: life you were just doing random You were still hunting, obviously, 632 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: And when was it this post when you got out 633 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: of being a professional hunter trapper of the dugout right 634 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: just described that next portion of your well. I I 635 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: was married nineteen seventy eight, when I was just essamisally 636 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: twenty eight years old. I got married first time, hopefully, 637 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: hopefully this might slender, will be my last one. I 638 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: don't let me go. No, I get beat up if 639 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: I try to go anywhere. But it sounds like a 640 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: bad idea. Yeah, but uh, but I continued. I continued 641 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: hunting and trapping. But I was also working on on 642 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 1: my photography. I I in nineteen seventy but nineteen seventy six, 643 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: I was thinking that I would probably like to do 644 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: some editorial photography, and so I started submitting to magazines 645 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: and got him kicked back and started realizing what I 646 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: needed to do in the level of excellence that I 647 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: need to achieve in order to be considered a viable 648 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: photographer and for people to be depended on magazines, And 649 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: so I finally broke in in nineteen seventy eight, and 650 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: the more I photographed, the less I hunted, and uh. 651 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: And that was a period in the nineteen nineties that, uh, 652 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: my log books were pretty thin because I was really 653 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: I had to my two sons at the time, and 654 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: I was really pushing the envelope, you know, traveling a lot, 655 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: a whole lot. I look back at at my calendars 656 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: and and I don't know how I did it. I 657 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: don't know how I stood it because I was going 658 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: all the time, book signings, you know, doing radio TV 659 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: interview to San Antonio, Houston, Austin, you know, Avarella, just 660 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: all around and uh, and then traveling all over the 661 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: state and shooting for the for various book projects and um. 662 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: And then then I then I began to realize I 663 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: missed my hunting, and so now I try to balance 664 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: it out a little bit. Although photography does take the heavier, 665 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: heavier load. Yeah, maybe he skipped over the story. I 666 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure we recover. Now you you had 667 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: a little plane crash one time. Yeah, I don't want 668 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: to skip over that. But yeah, it's a gym. Yeah, 669 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: well I was I was looking for a cattle. Uh, 670 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: my brother had leased some land or actually he owned 671 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: some landing, and he had a couple of heifers missing, 672 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,439 Speaker 1: and so he asked me if I if I would 673 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: take plane and go over and look look for him. 674 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: And I was flying low and slow with the brush 675 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,839 Speaker 1: and decided finally that that I couldn't I couldn't get 676 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,240 Speaker 1: them located. They must have gotten out into another onto 677 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: another ranch. And so I had climbed out to about 678 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty feet and I was banking and 679 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: headed back to the airport and my engine just died, 680 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: just just it was just like silence, and I just 681 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: I was remembered so vividly thinking this didn't happen. I 682 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: cannot get this engine started. I mean, I'm too low. 683 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: Besides that you had the proper plane off, and so 684 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: uh instantly I went into survival mode. My my flight 685 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: instructor was an O B twenty four pilot from World 686 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: War Two, and he pounded into my head airspeed airspeed, airspeed, 687 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: airspeed equates to life, and so I nosed it over 688 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: and I started looking for a place to land, and 689 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: I knew it was gonna be bad, but but I 690 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 1: can remember that still remember vividly the whistling of wind, 691 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 1: the sound of silence except for the wind, and me 692 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: frantically thinking how can I get out of this alive? 693 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: And to the right, to the left was where I 694 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: wanted to land into the wind, but there were two 695 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,959 Speaker 1: barb war fences, and I could tell by my ready 696 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: descent that I was going to take these two fences. 697 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: Out in front of me was a wall of mesquite, 698 00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: and I didn't want to drive a me skit tree 699 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: through my through my chest. And to the to the 700 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: right of me, down wind, which is where I didn't 701 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 1: want to go because I'd be a built an air speed, 702 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: was a hilltop that had been freshly deep broke what 703 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: they called big ox, which you have clods, you know 704 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: that way fifty pounds sixty pounds, And I knew that 705 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: that was gonna be a rough run, but I chose that, 706 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: and so I banked it over very steep, built up 707 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 1: my airspeed, did a ninety degree banking. As I leveled out, 708 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: I was about ten ft above the ground. And my 709 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: big plan, my big battle plan, was to just pull 710 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: the nose up as high as I could and barely 711 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: flopp in. But I was I was really moving pretty 712 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: quickly a ground speed with a tail wind, and all 713 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: I remember was a bang. And the next thing I remember, 714 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: I was hanging upside down the plane in cart wheel 715 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: and uh. And I could hear gas spewing as it 716 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: run onto the engine, and I thought, I gotta get 717 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: out of here. I'm gonna burn up. So I grabbed 718 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 1: my shoulder harness and clicked it loose, fell out against 719 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,919 Speaker 1: the roof of the plane, rolled out on the wing, 720 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: and I took off running. Plane didn't burn. But uh, 721 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,359 Speaker 1: but that was that was a very memorable experience. But 722 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: as I was mentioned to you earlier, I would suggest 723 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: people who go outdoors and especially engaged in dangerous thing 724 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: read a book called Deep Survival, Deep Survival. That book 725 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: explains why I survived. And it was the preparation. The 726 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: preparation of that old be twenty four pilot taught me, 727 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: who spent three years of his life in a German 728 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: PLW camp. But he pounded in my head, this is 729 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: the way you survive in a plant, whether you're hunting 730 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: where your mountain clapping, whether you're flying where you're skinning 731 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 1: a deer. Preparation and the ability to change at a 732 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: moment's notice, not stick to the battle plan, not go 733 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,959 Speaker 1: I got to go A, B, C D. I can 734 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: go from A to E in order to survive. And 735 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: that's what kept me alive. Well. And he said, you're 736 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: describing all these options. I'm sure that wasn't ten minutes. 737 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: You had to just seconds. You're talking about some boom boom. 738 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 1: You had to make that decision, absolutely, and didn't you 739 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: just walk out to the road, hitchhight and go home. 740 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 1: I walked out to the highway and hitchtight. And the 741 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: cowboy picked me up, who knew me, and said, do 742 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: you have a flat And I said, no, I plane 743 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: crash and he I thought, he nearly ran off the road. 744 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: He looked at me and go you okay? I said, yeah, 745 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: I just need to go home. I'll get back to 746 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: that plane when it back that plane one of these days. 747 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: I want to also talk about when you became a father, right, 748 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you had a a marriage dissolved, which happens 749 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: to many many people. But but coming to father your 750 00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: two boys, like when the how old are you and 751 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: that happened? How old were you when they were born? 752 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: I was, let's see, eighty three. I was thirty Uh, 753 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: the way you might see see eighty three. So yeah, 754 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: I was thirty three. I was thirty three when I 755 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: had my first son. In thirty four in my second, 756 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: which it's similar to my age. And and hopefully my 757 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: wife thinks that's the child output you would like to have. 758 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,399 Speaker 1: She told me, she told me on the far came 759 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: up yourself, what do you think about having four boys? 760 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: I said, well, we got one. Let's go one at 761 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: a time, exactly exactly. Blessing that that was the That 762 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: was the greatest blessing of my life. Yeah, they having 763 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,359 Speaker 1: those two boys. I I've told so many people that 764 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: young people who and I was one of them who go, 765 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not gonna have any children. You know, 766 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: I think that I know what love is. You do 767 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: not know. And you know, as you know, you do 768 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 1: not know the definition of love until you hear that 769 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: little child cry when he's born. That's when you know 770 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: this is what love is all about. And I raised 771 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: my boys like my parents raised me, with a loose rein. 772 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: Taught him how to trap. Uh. Didn't really want them 773 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: to go into cowboy and so much. And they did, 774 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: and they did for a while. They didn't go to college. 775 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 1: They didn't want to go to college, and I respected that. Um. 776 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: I realized now that not everybody needs to go to 777 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: college to be wildly successful, because both my boys are 778 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: very successful and uh and it's just a work ethic. 779 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: The one thing that I was able to teach them 780 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: is a work ethic. Those boys started early, very early, 781 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: working and uh. And I when their mother left, I 782 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,240 Speaker 1: told him that we were gonna have to stick together. 783 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: They had a job to do. I was gonna be 784 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,360 Speaker 1: on the road and we needed to be a team. 785 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: And they rose to the occasion. Yeah. I mean that 786 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: was most of their lives. You know, you raised them 787 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: by yourself. Uh well, uh, it's well not most They 788 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: were like you know, thirteen in in fourteen something like that. Whatever. 789 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 1: That was a tough time. That was that was tough. 790 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: That was that was tough. Um. Of course there was 791 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: the stigma of the divorce. I didn't like that. UM, 792 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: but I realized in the long run later that it 793 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,360 Speaker 1: was the best thing, because you know, nobody wants to 794 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: get a divorce. That that's hard, especially with children. UM. 795 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: I have I have. I have apologized to my boys 796 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 1: numerous times, wishing that they had not had to see 797 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: what they saw, the arguments, you know, the the strife, 798 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,799 Speaker 1: the stress, and their response was very mature. They said, Dad, 799 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,439 Speaker 1: we understood y'all just weren't meant for each other. And 800 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: I thank god that they look they look at it 801 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: like that and they realized that we weren't. But I 802 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: am thankful too that she and I were married because 803 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 1: I have my boys. Yeah, I'm thankful for that. But 804 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 1: but I can tell you that, uh, and I know 805 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: this may sound corny, that if everybody could find a 806 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: woman like my cylinder, there would be no divorces. And 807 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,239 Speaker 1: I and I and I did not. I was not 808 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: looking to find anyone. I was burned out, you know. 809 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: I would have been married twenty years and a lot 810 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: of strife and stress trying to build up my photography 811 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: were we didn't have a lot. It was very tough. Um. 812 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: But when I met her, I realized that I that 813 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: I had met a jewel. Yeah she is that she 814 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: is the challenge of raising those boys. And in this country, 815 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean both of them still live. I mean Peyton 816 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 1: lives right down the street. He lives down the street. 817 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: Of course. Hunters a horse trainer at at near Weatherford 818 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: at Peaster and uh, highly highly successful, very successful young man. 819 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: Um world renowned to that world renowned he is. And 820 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 1: so you know you raise him on a ranch. You're 821 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: raised them much like you did. They were on horseback, 822 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: they were hunting with dad. They were probably reloading bullets 823 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: and working over action rifles and and uh it took right. 824 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: I mean we were talking about breakfast again in this morning, 825 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: like you the challenge of raising your kids and this 826 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: my son, and this environment and what I'll have to 827 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:51,280 Speaker 1: face with technology, with the changing culture, with the liberal 828 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: nature of a lot of our cities and people and 829 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,239 Speaker 1: things that that are challenging. Um. Based on the way 830 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:58,800 Speaker 1: that you grew up and your kids grew up, I 831 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: mean what you look back at that? And oh well, 832 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,839 Speaker 1: I just kept thinking it took. I mean you talked 833 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: to his boys away to live. They live life their 834 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 1: way much like you've lived, George. And it was it's 835 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: independence that I that I taught him, like for instance, 836 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: a good a good uh story here is when paid was, 837 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, maybe seventeen sixteen, and he came in one 838 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: day and said it was like February, early February, late January, 839 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 1: and uh, and he wanted to buy a pickup and 840 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,719 Speaker 1: don't use pickup. And I couldn't afford to buy the 841 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 1: pickup for him. That just just what it was. I'm 842 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 1: struggling And I said, uh, he said, Dad, there's not 843 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: any there's not any day work going on. He said, 844 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,120 Speaker 1: I need I need this much money to make a 845 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,719 Speaker 1: down payment, just pick up. I said, well, i'll tell 846 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: you what. I can't help you, but there's the fur 847 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,839 Speaker 1: market is up a little and I'll show you how 848 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 1: to trap. And I took him out and showed him 849 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,359 Speaker 1: where to set traps, how to how to read sign 850 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: on bobcats. And in one month he caught like twenty 851 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,240 Speaker 1: eight bobcats, enough to make a down payment on his pickup. 852 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 1: And I said, now you're gonna skin him too. And 853 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:15,920 Speaker 1: there's a couple of times he called said hey, Dad, 854 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm busy. Can you skin a cat? I said no, 855 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: he'll be here waiting for you. You gotta do it yourself. 856 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: I've skinned enough. And it was teaching the boy's responsibility 857 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: and that that they needed to work, you know, And 858 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: it was it was nothing wrong with working hard. It 859 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:38,240 Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with sacrificing and and taking that extra 860 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: time when you got in although you were tired, you 861 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,319 Speaker 1: still had a job to do before you turned in 862 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: for the night. And it was a positive thing all 863 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: the way, all the way around. It was good for 864 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,160 Speaker 1: them in the long haul as as men today and 865 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:56,920 Speaker 1: who they are and there their productivity and the respect 866 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 1: that they command with other people, and everybody knows him 867 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,120 Speaker 1: and and respects them. I mean, we've all got an 868 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: enemy here and there, but by and large, yeah, I 869 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,760 Speaker 1: found that traveling around that the unique nature of somebody 870 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: that's raising that environment. We had another I had another 871 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,879 Speaker 1: guy named fred Eikler on the podcast UM some months ago. 872 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,800 Speaker 1: I was out turkey hunting his place in Colorado. He 873 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: lives on a ranch, his kids grow up much like 874 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 1: yours did, and his son, I think is probably thirteen 875 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: or fourteen, maybe a little younger than that even Um, 876 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: but the young man walks right up to you, shakes 877 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,880 Speaker 1: your hand, looks you square dead nuts in the eye 878 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,640 Speaker 1: right and says it was a pleasure to meet you. 879 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,799 Speaker 1: And sure he means it. He's eleven years old. And 880 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 1: that struck me, as you know his father and his parents. 881 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: But his environment is that you get up in the morning, chores, chickens, goats, 882 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 1: run horseback right, this, that and and that always struck me. 883 00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: And you know and pay to that course. Hunter and 884 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: and Alicia don't have children yet, but Pete has three 885 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: and to the daughter and the son, uh eleven and ten. 886 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:14,439 Speaker 1: I believe they have their chores every day. It's clean 887 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,000 Speaker 1: out the horse stalls, feed the dogs, water the dogs, 888 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,600 Speaker 1: water the horses. Every day. They have these chores. And 889 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: I was asking, Uh, Tristan the little boy the other 890 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,239 Speaker 1: day when I took him about hunting. I asked him 891 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,960 Speaker 1: if he liked these chores, doing his chores. He said, oh, 892 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,919 Speaker 1: not really. And I said, but those chores are good 893 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,479 Speaker 1: for you. They're teaching you a lesson everybody. I said, 894 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,319 Speaker 1: when when Pappy that's me and Uncle Rick that's my brother. 895 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: When we were little in your age, we had our chores. 896 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: We gathered eggs, we cleaned out the barn, we cleaned 897 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 1: out the chicken pan and it was good for us. 898 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,759 Speaker 1: And this is good for you and and it's and 899 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,680 Speaker 1: it's unfortunate that more parents don't expect that out of 900 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,359 Speaker 1: their children. They try to keep trying to insulate your 901 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 1: children from that. And that's wrong. I'm sorry, that's wrong. Yeah, 902 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 1: I mean it shows in the way. You know, I 903 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,920 Speaker 1: hate to make it up. It's not because there's definitely 904 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,319 Speaker 1: parents that live in urban environments that do things like that, 905 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,080 Speaker 1: and that's that that I don't want to make it 906 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,400 Speaker 1: sound like that, but I just I've found in travel 907 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: around and hunting and meeting young folks that live in 908 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: small town environments, that live in places where work is required, 909 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,319 Speaker 1: you couldn't just like you, you know, you wake up 910 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 1: on on a ranch and sleep in and for a 911 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,359 Speaker 1: couple of days just watch TV and take the weekend off. 912 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 1: Next thing, you know, yeah, things aren't going life's not 913 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,080 Speaker 1: going away exactly. And so I'm not sure if it's 914 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 1: connected to that or just connected to the culture and 915 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,920 Speaker 1: these in small towns and the connection to people in 916 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,640 Speaker 1: the land and all that. I'm not sure. I wonder 917 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: what your opinion on that is, because it's it's just 918 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,920 Speaker 1: has always struck me that the direct nature of of 919 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: children raised in that in that environment, and then meeting 920 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,360 Speaker 1: sometimes meeting kids that are raised with iPad um raised 921 00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,919 Speaker 1: iPads and sleeping in in the summertime, you know, yeah, 922 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,319 Speaker 1: it's when you're when you're I think, in the in 923 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 1: the environment that uh, that defines this part of the country, 924 00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, a ranching culture. Uh. You know, kids are 925 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 1: raised knowing that they have to work and I know, 926 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: you know learning you know, being uh computer individual. You know, 927 00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 1: everybody has to be somebody and you gotta have that 928 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:37,600 Speaker 1: kind of person. But two, it would not hurt those 929 00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:42,160 Speaker 1: kids to go and get a job sacking groceries and 930 00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:47,120 Speaker 1: knowing they have to be there at seven thirty to 931 00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,240 Speaker 1: clock in and they have to work until this period 932 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,280 Speaker 1: of time. Then they can go and study their computers 933 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: and you know, and there whatever you know, and and 934 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,919 Speaker 1: be that and pursue the job of career that they want. 935 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,839 Speaker 1: But there's nothing wrong with learning to be responsible as 936 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,759 Speaker 1: a young person. And you're just talking about the handshake. 937 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 1: My dad taught my brother, and I remember it vividly. 938 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,360 Speaker 1: You shake hands with a man, you look him in 939 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,560 Speaker 1: the face, and you squeeze his fist. And old Daddy 940 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: born nineteen eighteen. Uh sadly tragically lost him when he 941 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,440 Speaker 1: was sixty five years old. But man, he grabbed us 942 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:30,960 Speaker 1: by the hand. He said, now you look at me 943 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 1: and you shake my hand, you squeeze. I talked my 944 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,839 Speaker 1: boys the same way, and to this, I mean, and 945 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,759 Speaker 1: he is teaching. They're his children to do the same thing. 946 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 1: And that's that's good. And and and and Pete's son 947 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: even though Peate is a is a man of the 948 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: land like I was raised and my brother was raised. 949 00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,680 Speaker 1: And and hunter he's more he's he's he dips in 950 00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,719 Speaker 1: and out. He lives close to Dallas, and you know 951 00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:02,040 Speaker 1: he can deal with both. But pat is you know, 952 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,240 Speaker 1: he trains horses, but as a hunting service, he trains dogs. 953 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,479 Speaker 1: And and he's more of your of your from the land. 954 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:16,360 Speaker 1: But his son wants to be like a marine biologist. 955 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:23,680 Speaker 1: Brilliant young man uh into into making model airplanes and 956 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 1: studying aerodynamics. It takes my college books that I in 957 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:33,400 Speaker 1: parasitology and comparative anatomy, and those are the books he 958 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,760 Speaker 1: looked likes to read at eleven years of age. And 959 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,919 Speaker 1: I stressed to him, if this is what you want 960 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,720 Speaker 1: to do, do it, but do your chores. Do your chores, 961 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,400 Speaker 1: because you will take you will take those values that 962 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,600 Speaker 1: work ethic into whatever field that you choose, whether it's 963 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 1: computer science, whether it's marine biology, whether it's being a 964 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,960 Speaker 1: math teacher, or whether it's being a pilot. You're gonna 965 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,360 Speaker 1: take those work ethics and apply it. Yeah, I mean 966 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,640 Speaker 1: it's discipline, right this, I mean that seems to be. 967 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,440 Speaker 1: You know, every once in a while, I wake up 968 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,400 Speaker 1: in the morning and think, man, you know, I could 969 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 1: sleep in. Man, my kid was up all night, or 970 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,720 Speaker 1: I was up doing this, or I worked worked late. 971 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,720 Speaker 1: I'll sleep in and I think about disci plane like 972 00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,000 Speaker 1: if you if you do things when you rather not 973 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,200 Speaker 1: do them, that's the definition of success. That's that's it. 974 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 1: That's it. And I and I and when I give 975 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:34,440 Speaker 1: this presentation of evolution with a photographer, I talked about 976 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 1: being raised on ranch, being required to do a job, 977 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,440 Speaker 1: and how it could have been so easy for me 978 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,880 Speaker 1: once I got out of college and moved out there 979 00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,840 Speaker 1: to that, to that dugout. I could have slept in. 980 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,040 Speaker 1: I can win. Man is cold outside and as far 981 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,760 Speaker 1: as going and so comfortable with no. I knew that 982 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,000 Speaker 1: I had to get up and I had fifth years, 983 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,960 Speaker 1: six few miles of rough country that to to cover. 984 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: I knew that I needed to have four animal units 985 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,080 Speaker 1: today because I had a college loan payment to go, 986 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,320 Speaker 1: I had pick up payments, I had groceries to buy, 987 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, and I needed a little extra you know, 988 00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: folding cash and and UH, but it was it was 989 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 1: what I learned when I was a young kid. How 990 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 1: many days in your life have you worked for someone else? 991 00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: I've never. I've never had a steady job. It's always 992 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,880 Speaker 1: been a part time. I worked for the Forest Department 993 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:40,360 Speaker 1: once UH from seven and from UH September one November one, 994 00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five. It's a long tenure, a long 995 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,800 Speaker 1: tenure in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and in Las Vegas, 996 00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,000 Speaker 1: New Mexico, and came back and we hit the trap 997 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,520 Speaker 1: line again. And then I worked as a crop adjuster 998 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:59,560 Speaker 1: during the summer. UH. Whenever I was in college, I 999 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,760 Speaker 1: worked in the summertime for the Highway Department, and in 1000 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,120 Speaker 1: the afternoons after I got off work, I weld it 1001 01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,800 Speaker 1: to make extra money so I wouldn't have to float alone. 1002 01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 1: I didn't get to have to have to float alone 1003 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,400 Speaker 1: for college until I was to my last semester and 1004 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,360 Speaker 1: as a senior. But but I would hold down two 1005 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: jobs in the summer and so I could so I could, 1006 01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,280 Speaker 1: UH could study and and go to school and not 1007 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,280 Speaker 1: have to work in the wintertime. And now I work 1008 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,720 Speaker 1: on weekends. I come on and work and when the 1009 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,720 Speaker 1: first got up in seventy three, I came home and 1010 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,520 Speaker 1: hunted on weekends because I could make more trapping and 1011 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,800 Speaker 1: hunting coves and working cattle. See that It gets me 1012 01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,360 Speaker 1: now because you know people working these corporations, right, I mean, 1013 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,240 Speaker 1: you get to be working for somebody else, and I 1014 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,560 Speaker 1: don't know the freedom and the discipline it takes to 1015 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:47,800 Speaker 1: be like I can't you know, I gotta be work 1016 01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,520 Speaker 1: at eight o'clock and my boss is happy. Well, you 1017 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,360 Speaker 1: get up in the morning at seven o'clock and start 1018 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,960 Speaker 1: working your bosses yourself. Yeah, you know, you never know anything. 1019 01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 1: And you and you have you have great years, and 1020 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,520 Speaker 1: you have terrible years. That's just that's just working for yourself. Um. 1021 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,960 Speaker 1: You know the great years wonderful of terrible years. You 1022 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,320 Speaker 1: know they're hungry and you know you have to do 1023 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:13,200 Speaker 1: without um and and and and you if some people 1024 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,720 Speaker 1: think some people think, well you're past that, well you're not. 1025 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,200 Speaker 1: You never get past the uh there. It's just like 1026 01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,920 Speaker 1: a cowd I compare my life a lot to the 1027 01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,120 Speaker 1: life of a coat. You know, the season's come and 1028 01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,600 Speaker 1: then in September, you know I'm eating I'm eating good 1029 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:35,200 Speaker 1: on cedar berries. January comes and and I'm eating the 1030 01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,360 Speaker 1: last of the cedar berries and things are getting tough, 1031 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,120 Speaker 1: and things don't get good to the low berry crop 1032 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,600 Speaker 1: comes on in April, and I'm eating good and then 1033 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,600 Speaker 1: I go to grasshoppers and skip beans and cactus apples. 1034 01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,560 Speaker 1: You know, there are hard times and there's good times, 1035 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,640 Speaker 1: and so you just you just learned to to to 1036 01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:54,920 Speaker 1: deal with it. Yeah, let's in your Life's not to 1037 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,240 Speaker 1: find by either one of those things. You life to 1038 01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,480 Speaker 1: find by your discipline. Throughout discipline, and the happens with 1039 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 1: what you're doing. If you're satisfied and you go you 1040 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,480 Speaker 1: go home at night and go to bed, and you 1041 01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,600 Speaker 1: feel good about the day you've done. Will Yeah, Well, 1042 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 1: I mean one of the things you've been most successful 1043 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 1: at it's photography, right, you talked about a little bit. 1044 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:18,080 Speaker 1: So you decided after college and after your time as 1045 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:22,760 Speaker 1: a as a hunter professionally so that you want to 1046 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,000 Speaker 1: start dabbling around with the camera and figuring it out. 1047 01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,000 Speaker 1: And this is in the seventies or eighties, seventies whenever 1048 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,520 Speaker 1: I started aspiring, and then it was like nineteen seventy 1049 01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,680 Speaker 1: eight is when I first got published in both in 1050 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,080 Speaker 1: parks and Wildife and National Wife about the same month. 1051 01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,600 Speaker 1: It might have been a month apart. And of course 1052 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,240 Speaker 1: once as you will know, once you get published, it's like, 1053 01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,160 Speaker 1: I love this, you know, I really want to do 1054 01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:51,440 Speaker 1: more of this. And then night one bro and actually 1055 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,959 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty a Rooken the Field and stream eighty one 1056 01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,400 Speaker 1: is was that that that transitional year when I had 1057 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: three over his three national covers one month, and I 1058 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: realized then that that I stood a chance. But I 1059 01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,400 Speaker 1: was still holding down another job in the summertime, photographing 1060 01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:14,560 Speaker 1: in the winter, and I remember vividly in that I 1061 01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,120 Speaker 1: was driving a diesel truck in the summer for a 1062 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: friend of mine and I received the letter from Lionel 1063 01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,040 Speaker 1: app Well at Sports of Field and he said, You've 1064 01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:30,840 Speaker 1: been chosen as one of five America's like new photographers, 1065 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,680 Speaker 1: UM kind of the photography of the future, photographer the future, 1066 01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,640 Speaker 1: and that we wanted to we want to to uh 1067 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,480 Speaker 1: to uh write a story, you know, devoted magazine issue 1068 01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,800 Speaker 1: to you guys. And I realized, then, you know what, 1069 01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,280 Speaker 1: I may have something going on here, and he wrote 1070 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,400 Speaker 1: that piece. I still have it today. The new Breed 1071 01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,720 Speaker 1: they called the New Breed and UM and then um 1072 01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:06,320 Speaker 1: published my first book in ninety three, Roadrunners, which was 1073 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:10,480 Speaker 1: an immediate success. Uh. The images were published all over 1074 01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,560 Speaker 1: the world. UH did a ten page spread for a 1075 01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:18,360 Speaker 1: Smithsonian magazine. UH, did a big spread for a Career 1076 01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:24,600 Speaker 1: Geo German magazine, French magazines. And then I received an 1077 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,440 Speaker 1: award for that magazine. I forgot what it was out 1078 01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,480 Speaker 1: of San Antonio. And then things started popping, you know, 1079 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:40,440 Speaker 1: things started rolling. I got seven I was voted as uh, 1080 01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,280 Speaker 1: what was it? An outstanding a lum at Tech. I 1081 01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:48,160 Speaker 1: was not a great student, I'll admit that. And I 1082 01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:50,800 Speaker 1: questioned why I was given that, and they said, it's 1083 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,920 Speaker 1: not what you did with you're in school, that's what 1084 01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,200 Speaker 1: you accomplished when you're out of school. And so then 1085 01:04:56,240 --> 01:05:03,880 Speaker 1: in I got distinguished Alum at Tech. Uh uh the 1086 01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:07,200 Speaker 1: State Photographer of Texas from George W. Bush, the governor, 1087 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,000 Speaker 1: then seven fifth of the legislature, and then things just 1088 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:15,880 Speaker 1: started going. Most recently in February of two thousand and eighteen, 1089 01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,880 Speaker 1: Field and Stream name is one of ten American outdoor 1090 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:24,760 Speaker 1: Legends because of my my predator hunting. I also in 1091 01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:33,120 Speaker 1: April received the Leaving Legacy Award from the It's a 1092 01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:37,280 Speaker 1: foundation out of Corpus Christie. It's a big deal. I 1093 01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:38,960 Speaker 1: didn't know it's such a big deal till I went, 1094 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,840 Speaker 1: and he was like, this is big. There's only three 1095 01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,440 Speaker 1: people before me it received, and all of them artists, 1096 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:50,000 Speaker 1: and what it is. It's art inspiring others to be 1097 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:55,320 Speaker 1: interested in conservation the art that you produce. And that 1098 01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,320 Speaker 1: was the reason the other three guys. Well, I mean 1099 01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,720 Speaker 1: you take that all back, all the things you've achieved 1100 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 1: in the even later years, but those first covers and 1101 01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,520 Speaker 1: all that stuff, and prior to that was a stack 1102 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,320 Speaker 1: of rejection with and I still have them. I still 1103 01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,680 Speaker 1: have them to read them. Yeah, and I don't I 1104 01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,760 Speaker 1: don't submit that much anymore. It's mostly I do books 1105 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,640 Speaker 1: sometime in magazine we're calling them need images, and I'll 1106 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:22,960 Speaker 1: publish the story or something here and there. And I 1107 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,480 Speaker 1: like I enjoy writing especially about kayle my years as 1108 01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:32,640 Speaker 1: Kyle Hunting. I enjoyed doing that. Uh but uh um, 1109 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,360 Speaker 1: But I still have those rejections lad. In fact, I 1110 01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,520 Speaker 1: read one too to the guy who gave it to me, 1111 01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:42,120 Speaker 1: A nineteen and seventy eight and seventy seven Bill Reaves 1112 01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,120 Speaker 1: at parts twelve, and he said, you actually kept that 1113 01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:49,439 Speaker 1: letter and I said, Bill, I've got them all. Yeah. 1114 01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you think about those rejections and then it 1115 01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:55,280 Speaker 1: would be interesting to hear because I know you talked 1116 01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:57,920 Speaker 1: about and you're one of your presentations about you never 1117 01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,400 Speaker 1: knew there was a state photographer Tex but you just 1118 01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:03,480 Speaker 1: worked and you worked and you worked, that worked, and 1119 01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,200 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden somebody said you are that, 1120 01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,000 Speaker 1: and you're like that, that's nice. That's another lesson that 1121 01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,840 Speaker 1: I tried to to instill in people whenever I give 1122 01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,160 Speaker 1: a presentation, is that if you love what you do, 1123 01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,280 Speaker 1: if you work from the heart, if it if you 1124 01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,160 Speaker 1: if it comes from the soul, then the good things 1125 01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 1: will happen. Uh. But don't don't set in the beginning. 1126 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:28,960 Speaker 1: Don't say well I want to be this, I want 1127 01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,880 Speaker 1: to be that. Just work and love what you do 1128 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,280 Speaker 1: and if it was meant to be those those other 1129 01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:41,560 Speaker 1: things will come, those accolades, whatever is out there, they will, 1130 01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,840 Speaker 1: they will come about. Well, like you said, there's certainly 1131 01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: struggles in your career and constantly, you know where you 1132 01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,800 Speaker 1: have two kids and you're trying to make ends, meeting 1133 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,280 Speaker 1: you gotta stacker rejection letters and you know what do 1134 01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,200 Speaker 1: you do do you quit? You go get a nine 1135 01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:58,080 Speaker 1: to five, and sometimes you think about it. You go, 1136 01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, there must be an easier way, and then 1137 01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:03,080 Speaker 1: you think, jeez, I don't want to live like that. 1138 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:05,880 Speaker 1: I want to I want to continue being free, being 1139 01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,880 Speaker 1: able to roam over this old hardass country here and 1140 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,000 Speaker 1: the and the rolling plains of Texas called a big 1141 01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:16,200 Speaker 1: empty and and mix with the cowboys, go out here 1142 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,479 Speaker 1: on these big canyons early in the morning and watch 1143 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,439 Speaker 1: the fall rise from the canyon floor. I want to 1144 01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:22,680 Speaker 1: see that. I want to be able to see that 1145 01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:26,080 Speaker 1: all the time. And so I'm willing to sacrifice and 1146 01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:27,880 Speaker 1: able to do that, but to be able to do 1147 01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,760 Speaker 1: that and to work hard for it. So your photography, 1148 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,160 Speaker 1: it's an art, right, I mean, you're you're an artist. 1149 01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:35,599 Speaker 1: Describe what that that art means to you, like kind 1150 01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,360 Speaker 1: of how you developed your style and your well, your 1151 01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:42,760 Speaker 1: functionality of h When I was trapping, when I was 1152 01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:47,479 Speaker 1: living out there on the Pitchfork, I was always fascinated 1153 01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,000 Speaker 1: by the light playing on those cliffs. And in one 1154 01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:56,960 Speaker 1: of my one of my journal uh entries at the 1155 01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:00,920 Speaker 1: very end of that first year, I wrote about the 1156 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,840 Speaker 1: way the light played on the cliffs and how I 1157 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,600 Speaker 1: would watch it disappear, and I felt like that was 1158 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,439 Speaker 1: much like the life that I was living, that that 1159 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:17,920 Speaker 1: beautiful light, that beautiful life was fading, at least the 1160 01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:21,240 Speaker 1: feeling that I had for that year. But but still 1161 01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,080 Speaker 1: I would take and I still have those photographs of 1162 01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:27,040 Speaker 1: those sunsets and sunrise. Of course, then composition is not good, 1163 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:29,800 Speaker 1: you know. I all have was a fifty millimeter lands 1164 01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,519 Speaker 1: on an old cannon Tell shooting code chrome and sixty four. 1165 01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:41,400 Speaker 1: But but the light was really what UM played a 1166 01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:45,080 Speaker 1: huge role in in the style of my photography. And 1167 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:49,479 Speaker 1: I learned that and also from the hunting, because I 1168 01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,880 Speaker 1: would shoot my photographs much like I would when I 1169 01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:57,160 Speaker 1: was hunting from a low you know, ground level, you know, 1170 01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,960 Speaker 1: shooting kind of eye level at the at the animal. 1171 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,920 Speaker 1: And so I remember calling Gary Gretter at sports Field, 1172 01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 1: was asking him before I became published a lot about 1173 01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:12,720 Speaker 1: my imagery and he said, you've got a style, and 1174 01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,080 Speaker 1: he said I like it. He said your eye for 1175 01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:19,320 Speaker 1: light and color and the angle that you shoot from. 1176 01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:21,680 Speaker 1: And I realized at that point that I had established 1177 01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:25,360 Speaker 1: a style, and to this day that's I've been at 1178 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:27,840 Speaker 1: this over forty years. People will say, I know your 1179 01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:30,479 Speaker 1: image is the minute I see them because of the 1180 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:34,240 Speaker 1: light you use and the angle that you shoot from. 1181 01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:36,640 Speaker 1: And that's I mean. And again, you just had a 1182 01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:38,800 Speaker 1: passion about something. You were at it every day and 1183 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:44,360 Speaker 1: eventually you had you had developed something hammering on the 1184 01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,200 Speaker 1: rock and eventually and that wasn't you know at the 1185 01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,599 Speaker 1: time in the late seventies, nobody around here was being 1186 01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,680 Speaker 1: published at all. I mean, the closest guy was San Antonio, 1187 01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,200 Speaker 1: and then the next guy was h an Alice Texas, 1188 01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:03,200 Speaker 1: Jerry Smith, hell of a photographer, and um. And so 1189 01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:07,280 Speaker 1: the rest of the people were what New Jersey all 1190 01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:09,400 Speaker 1: around you know, you I forgot their names. And now 1191 01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:13,800 Speaker 1: it's been so long ago. Bill McCrae, those guys super guy, 1192 01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:18,559 Speaker 1: super photographer, I hope so because he was a nice fellow. 1193 01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:21,240 Speaker 1: But you had Leonta Rue. You know, those are the 1194 01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:23,280 Speaker 1: and and that God knows they live across the United 1195 01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:26,320 Speaker 1: States from me, and so you know, and at that 1196 01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:28,720 Speaker 1: time sent a roll of film. Often it was a 1197 01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,400 Speaker 1: week or so before I get it back, and so man, 1198 01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:34,040 Speaker 1: it was it was basically you know, flint and steel, 1199 01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,519 Speaker 1: you know, starting to fire. Oh, I had to just 1200 01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, writen down my exposures. And then when I 1201 01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:41,800 Speaker 1: get the shots back, I look and I go, well, 1202 01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:45,040 Speaker 1: screwed this one up? Wine, I look over and go okay, 1203 01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,920 Speaker 1: now no way and uh. And it was it was 1204 01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:52,400 Speaker 1: a hard process and um and in the twelve years 1205 01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:57,920 Speaker 1: I taught it tech as an adjunct professor or an instructor. UM, 1206 01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,960 Speaker 1: I would instill that in in in people in that 1207 01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,760 Speaker 1: I am here. You have the opportunity to learn from 1208 01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:09,639 Speaker 1: someone who started from the ground up with flint and steel, 1209 01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:14,400 Speaker 1: with a stick and string, and and you better pay 1210 01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:18,840 Speaker 1: attention because there's not a lot of me around. And 1211 01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,280 Speaker 1: so for twelve years I shared that with those kids, 1212 01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:24,880 Speaker 1: and and I still have letters from them today. I 1213 01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:28,800 Speaker 1: kept those letters telling me how much they appreciate my 1214 01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,040 Speaker 1: sharing the knowledge that I learned from the hard knocks. 1215 01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,760 Speaker 1: Because there are those folks myself included, or anybody who 1216 01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:38,519 Speaker 1: wants to be a photographer, even a hunter, it will 1217 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,400 Speaker 1: be be loath to know kind of what how you 1218 01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:46,640 Speaker 1: hammered that skill out, the process you had to go 1219 01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:48,400 Speaker 1: through to your kid to refined image and then to 1220 01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:54,519 Speaker 1: mail at somebody and sell itude or whatever. Um. They 1221 01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,080 Speaker 1: won't know that there's no way for anybody to unless 1222 01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,559 Speaker 1: they deliberately use that process, they won't know the perspective 1223 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:02,880 Speaker 1: you gain from britt out how how much every image. 1224 01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:04,600 Speaker 1: Probably by the time you got an image published, you 1225 01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:10,320 Speaker 1: worked and refined and and checked and rechecked. And I 1226 01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:13,600 Speaker 1: talked to people. I'd call New York. I mean a 1227 01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,320 Speaker 1: guy here in Benjamin, Texas, you know, turing fifty eight people. 1228 01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:21,160 Speaker 1: Nobody who are Benjamin was? They do now, you know? Uh, 1229 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,200 Speaker 1: but uh, for the most part, I mean a lot 1230 01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,719 Speaker 1: of people don't. But still I would call the guys 1231 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,200 Speaker 1: in New York and just say, what do I need 1232 01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:31,519 Speaker 1: to do to make a difference? How can I be better? 1233 01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:36,120 Speaker 1: And luckily they would talk to me. And uh, you 1234 01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,840 Speaker 1: had Victor Classie at Field and Stream at the time. Good, 1235 01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,600 Speaker 1: good guy, great guy. Talk to him, you know, and 1236 01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,080 Speaker 1: he would share ideas with me, and I would try. 1237 01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:48,120 Speaker 1: I would go out and I'd hammered out and and 1238 01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:51,559 Speaker 1: try to do better. Yeah, I mean, and teaching those kids. 1239 01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you learned something about how to 1240 01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,880 Speaker 1: construct your own ideas the things that you've done, you know, 1241 01:13:57,960 --> 01:13:59,639 Speaker 1: he said, you weren't sitting there thinking about I gotta 1242 01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,559 Speaker 1: have style. I gotta have a style. But eventually with 1243 01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:03,479 Speaker 1: your the way you can see things, the way the 1244 01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,200 Speaker 1: light places of what you'd like that it all started 1245 01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,280 Speaker 1: out with a rifling hand. That was the source, That 1246 01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:12,360 Speaker 1: was the seed that that grew into what I have 1247 01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:14,640 Speaker 1: today and what I do today and the way I 1248 01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:18,080 Speaker 1: see life. Well, what did you teach those kids? I mean, 1249 01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,000 Speaker 1: and you can't say all that wasn't place. It was, 1250 01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, basically it was responsibility. You know, especially when 1251 01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,439 Speaker 1: I was teaching at Junction when it was they called 1252 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:30,719 Speaker 1: the Intercession. It was a two week class, a full semester, 1253 01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,479 Speaker 1: cram in to two weeks, and and the very first day, 1254 01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, my t A and I laid out the 1255 01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:39,439 Speaker 1: battle plan. I mean, this was the way it was 1256 01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,160 Speaker 1: gonna be done. You had to be on time. If 1257 01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,200 Speaker 1: you were not on time, if you were three minutes late, 1258 01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:50,120 Speaker 1: you were left. So get it. You know. You learn 1259 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:53,200 Speaker 1: up front there will be no sleeping in for two weeks. 1260 01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:57,800 Speaker 1: This is gonna be a boot camp. And you will 1261 01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,719 Speaker 1: walk in the creeks. You will weigh in the beaver 1262 01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:06,120 Speaker 1: feeces an Independence Creek. If you have to. You will 1263 01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,760 Speaker 1: wade up to your chin and water to get the 1264 01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,600 Speaker 1: photograph you will lay down in front of the rattlesnake. 1265 01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:14,559 Speaker 1: I don't care if you're afraid of him or not. 1266 01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:17,160 Speaker 1: I will keep the snake off of you. But you're 1267 01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:19,800 Speaker 1: gonna lay down and get eye leveled because that is 1268 01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:23,280 Speaker 1: the best angle in which to shoot a rattlesnake. And 1269 01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:27,880 Speaker 1: I had people scared to death shaking, but when it 1270 01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:32,720 Speaker 1: was over, they said, thank you for making me do that. Yeah, 1271 01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,400 Speaker 1: what are your what are your favorite images that you've 1272 01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:41,120 Speaker 1: ever Oh, you know, uh, I love photographing coles, you know, 1273 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:43,840 Speaker 1: because I love photographing deer. I've got photographs of big 1274 01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:47,280 Speaker 1: white tails fighting, you know, seeing I've seen things from 1275 01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,280 Speaker 1: being out on some of these big outfits where where 1276 01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:53,760 Speaker 1: other people can't go to most for the most part, 1277 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,160 Speaker 1: and being able to see two big bucks go together, 1278 01:15:58,160 --> 01:15:59,880 Speaker 1: you know, out in the middle of nowhere, not not 1279 01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:03,240 Speaker 1: in a fenced area, but just be driving along hilarious 1280 01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:06,120 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden crash or be rattling and 1281 01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,200 Speaker 1: see five bucks come in and all of a sudden 1282 01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,880 Speaker 1: to of them turn on each other and you know, 1283 01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:12,720 Speaker 1: just go at it, you know, I mean, for the 1284 01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,719 Speaker 1: I call them Gladiators of the wild Horse Desert because 1285 01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:20,360 Speaker 1: I mean they're fighting to fighting to the death. As 1286 01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:22,719 Speaker 1: you saw in my home. I got those two skulls 1287 01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:27,760 Speaker 1: walk together, and uh, things like that are even a 1288 01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:31,280 Speaker 1: little simplistic photographed, like in the in the eighties. One 1289 01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:32,960 Speaker 1: day I was into when I was living at the 1290 01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:37,160 Speaker 1: jail house there before we built the annex. H a 1291 01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:39,200 Speaker 1: snowy day and I was bored, and I went out 1292 01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,599 Speaker 1: in a pray dog town and photographed this little burrowing 1293 01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:46,320 Speaker 1: out peering over a snowbank. At that's a wonderful photo 1294 01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,400 Speaker 1: and and just a great shot. You know. It's just 1295 01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,639 Speaker 1: it reaches your it touches your soul. Just very simple 1296 01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:58,000 Speaker 1: images like that, you know, are very memorable shots. Um, 1297 01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:00,639 Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't have to be something bodic thing. 1298 01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,200 Speaker 1: Some some people say, well, how long did you wait 1299 01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:07,080 Speaker 1: for for a certain image? Will Yeah, I waited one time. 1300 01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:12,040 Speaker 1: Uh went out every day for like a month and 1301 01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:15,400 Speaker 1: a half waiting to catch a coyote two cote fighting. 1302 01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:19,760 Speaker 1: That was tough, you know, and like froze my butt 1303 01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:23,160 Speaker 1: off his in December and stayed in an old blind 1304 01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:26,200 Speaker 1: built out of my skite stumps, and I finally got 1305 01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:30,080 Speaker 1: the shot of two cote fighting. But just as significant 1306 01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:34,880 Speaker 1: as I came across um a jack rabbit one day 1307 01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:39,400 Speaker 1: that accepted my friendship or my my my presence and 1308 01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,160 Speaker 1: just laid down in the cool sand and stretched out 1309 01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,360 Speaker 1: like he and just basically went to sleep. And I 1310 01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:49,759 Speaker 1: was like ten steps from you, And that was special. 1311 01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,720 Speaker 1: I'll never forget that. Are are making friends with two 1312 01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:57,720 Speaker 1: roadrunners who for all summer allowed me to hunt with 1313 01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:01,040 Speaker 1: them every day and I could reach out and touch them. 1314 01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,000 Speaker 1: They allowed me to do that. It doesn't have to 1315 01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,040 Speaker 1: be something exotic to make it a great image. It's 1316 01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:09,400 Speaker 1: just a memory of that of making that image. What 1317 01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:12,120 Speaker 1: what led up to that image that I'll never forget that? 1318 01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,479 Speaker 1: They will always be special. Yeah, I mean that's got 1319 01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:18,519 Speaker 1: to define let's define the creativity. I mean there, that's 1320 01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,000 Speaker 1: a moment to be able to capture that relationship in 1321 01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:24,360 Speaker 1: some rare form like, that's a moment that no, you'll 1322 01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:27,360 Speaker 1: never be able to recreate, but then you can share 1323 01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,720 Speaker 1: with many people has decided to look at it or 1324 01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,080 Speaker 1: come across them. You have got to be important, you know. 1325 01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:35,840 Speaker 1: As a writer, I think of that all the time. 1326 01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,920 Speaker 1: I think that these words, you know, while they mean 1327 01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:42,800 Speaker 1: something to be now, they will forever be wherever they 1328 01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:44,200 Speaker 1: end up, you know, they end up in a print 1329 01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,599 Speaker 1: magazine or whatever. They'll forever be there in the form 1330 01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:52,040 Speaker 1: that they're in, and nobody can change that. Hopefully someday 1331 01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:54,280 Speaker 1: they'll read yours like that, like like we read Jack 1332 01:18:54,320 --> 01:19:02,680 Speaker 1: O'Connors today. Hell no, if I could be Billy O'Connor, 1333 01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:08,439 Speaker 1: yeah just as well. But yeah, there's hopes of that, right, 1334 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:11,519 Speaker 1: you have hopes that your ideas and your creativity somehow 1335 01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,400 Speaker 1: created an impact on the right and I and I 1336 01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,720 Speaker 1: enjoy writing. I enjoy right. I I don't write. I'm 1337 01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,920 Speaker 1: not a big time writer, like like Henry Chappell, a 1338 01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:23,960 Speaker 1: guy who I've collaborated with who's just a spiritual writer 1339 01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:27,479 Speaker 1: writes from the soul. But I spent a lot of 1340 01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:31,840 Speaker 1: time in work in UH, in association on several books 1341 01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:34,400 Speaker 1: with John Graves, is one of the great writers, the 1342 01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:38,920 Speaker 1: late John Graves, fabulous writer published UH, Goodbye to a 1343 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:45,559 Speaker 1: River and not sixty and he influenced me greatly his 1344 01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:50,599 Speaker 1: writing style and UH, and I if I feel like writing, 1345 01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:54,160 Speaker 1: I love to write. I will not write on anything 1346 01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:56,880 Speaker 1: that I don't know something about. I could I could 1347 01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:00,799 Speaker 1: never be a news writer. But if I feel like 1348 01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:02,840 Speaker 1: like for instance, I wrote a post the other day 1349 01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:07,599 Speaker 1: about the history of the jail there that that I've purchased, 1350 01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:10,800 Speaker 1: night two, that was built in eighteen eighty seven, and 1351 01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:14,200 Speaker 1: I went through the history and the the times of 1352 01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,840 Speaker 1: living there and the experience. And it was a long 1353 01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:21,840 Speaker 1: post and and I'm very proud of that post. I 1354 01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:25,040 Speaker 1: spent time in in it, and it's a good example 1355 01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:28,519 Speaker 1: of my writing style. And hopefully one of these days 1356 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:30,439 Speaker 1: I'll be able to publicsh say it in some little 1357 01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,080 Speaker 1: booklet of my writings, you know, just columns that I've 1358 01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,639 Speaker 1: written and in posts. Yeah, I mean, I always thought 1359 01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:40,360 Speaker 1: about I think about writing in two ways, and in 1360 01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:44,320 Speaker 1: the first the first ways, I think it's hard. It's 1361 01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:48,000 Speaker 1: painful process. It is, and I'm sure photography is that 1362 01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:49,840 Speaker 1: way for you. I mean, when I write a long 1363 01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:54,400 Speaker 1: form story, it is the worst. Like the actual process 1364 01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:56,880 Speaker 1: of mentally like okay, now I gotta do this, now 1365 01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:01,240 Speaker 1: I gotta do this, and going over every line and reworking, 1366 01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:05,440 Speaker 1: and it is. People say, you know, do you enjoy 1367 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,879 Speaker 1: when you were a writer full time? Do you enjoy 1368 01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:12,559 Speaker 1: that process? I'm like, not all I'm doing it, I don't. Yeah, 1369 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,559 Speaker 1: it is, it's it's a lot a lot of heart heartaches, 1370 01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:17,400 Speaker 1: staying up all night thinking about is this the right 1371 01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:18,920 Speaker 1: way to this phrase? This? Is this the right way 1372 01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:21,160 Speaker 1: to get my ideas across? Is this the right ending? 1373 01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:24,920 Speaker 1: Is this right beginning? Did I carry on through with it? 1374 01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:26,800 Speaker 1: Just like you? Is that you get passionate about the 1375 01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:28,680 Speaker 1: subject or whatever you're right about. You know a lot 1376 01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:30,479 Speaker 1: about it and it's important to you, and you think 1377 01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:32,640 Speaker 1: like it. Normally you're limited to a certain amount of 1378 01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:37,080 Speaker 1: words and you're just trying to, you know, release all 1379 01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:40,160 Speaker 1: the energy you have into this short or depending on 1380 01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,360 Speaker 1: how long it is, into this motive copy. And it's 1381 01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:47,439 Speaker 1: just I'm always just distressed. Whenever I turned something in 1382 01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:52,479 Speaker 1: is the most it's like the release of all have 1383 01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:55,120 Speaker 1: a beer like I did. It might suck, it might 1384 01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:58,080 Speaker 1: be really good, but at least it's gone. You know. 1385 01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:00,559 Speaker 1: When I was teaching how I totally students. Of course, 1386 01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:03,320 Speaker 1: I've taught in mass communication and I had a lot 1387 01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,519 Speaker 1: of ad com students as well, and it was a 1388 01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:10,440 Speaker 1: senior level and graduate level. Photographers, I mean in photography 1389 01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:14,640 Speaker 1: was my class. It was editorial photography basically, but I 1390 01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:20,320 Speaker 1: I taught my My approach was, okay, you people are 1391 01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:27,760 Speaker 1: advanced students and you're in communication. Remember you're in a 1392 01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:32,240 Speaker 1: photography class. Building a good photo is like building a 1393 01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,880 Speaker 1: good paragraph. You have to have a beginning and a 1394 01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:39,479 Speaker 1: good ending. So, like writing a story, you have these 1395 01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:42,559 Speaker 1: elements that must be there in order to carry the 1396 01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,840 Speaker 1: viewer all the way through to the end. I said, 1397 01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:49,080 Speaker 1: think of a photograph. It's writing an article or a 1398 01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:52,679 Speaker 1: good paragraph. It's got to start, whale's got to end. Well, 1399 01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:57,519 Speaker 1: you gotta have interest points in between. And that was 1400 01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:00,840 Speaker 1: my approach. Well, sometimes I'm sure it's like this is 1401 01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,120 Speaker 1: a photography for for writing. For me, sometimes it's like 1402 01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:05,320 Speaker 1: I know where I want to get to, but I 1403 01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:07,920 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know all the steps to get there. You know, 1404 01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:10,000 Speaker 1: like you're saying, I want to get a shot at 1405 01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:12,400 Speaker 1: two Bucks fighting. If I knew how to get there, 1406 01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:14,200 Speaker 1: I just walk over there and do it. But I 1407 01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:15,800 Speaker 1: know I want to get there, and I gotta take 1408 01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:19,439 Speaker 1: all these steps get there so that the copy becomes 1409 01:23:19,479 --> 01:23:24,080 Speaker 1: this like you know learning process that people cant reread through. 1410 01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:26,320 Speaker 1: They get read through your learning process. And I'm sure 1411 01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:29,519 Speaker 1: with photography, you know, people don't see all the work, 1412 01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,320 Speaker 1: but they see the end product. You had to take 1413 01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:35,200 Speaker 1: every step to get to that and and go. Now, 1414 01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:39,080 Speaker 1: it's not it's not easy. They're struggling there. That's not evident. 1415 01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:41,439 Speaker 1: There's a you know, a lot of some people recognize. 1416 01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:43,880 Speaker 1: I said, man, we knew what you. We understand that 1417 01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:46,080 Speaker 1: you probably went through a lot of trouble to get 1418 01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:48,760 Speaker 1: these other people that's just a great picture. But they 1419 01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:53,080 Speaker 1: can't and I appreciate them appreciating it. Yeah, but some 1420 01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:55,679 Speaker 1: people can see the paintings. Some people can see the strokes. 1421 01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:59,320 Speaker 1: And it's like like someone I learned very early in 1422 01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:02,960 Speaker 1: in editorial work, the editor doesn't give a damn how 1423 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,240 Speaker 1: much trouble it took to get the image. Just get 1424 01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:09,040 Speaker 1: the image. So don't worry about telling him or her 1425 01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:11,720 Speaker 1: you know how hard it was to get. Just make 1426 01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:16,360 Speaker 1: sure it's right. Yeah, we're talking about your the creativity 1427 01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:18,600 Speaker 1: it takes to do that. And then you know, it 1428 01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:21,000 Speaker 1: takes pressure to make a diamond, right, I mean, the 1429 01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:24,840 Speaker 1: struggle for you as real. But then you started to 1430 01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:27,960 Speaker 1: very quickly, uh find success, Well not very quickly, but 1431 01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,200 Speaker 1: you you started to find success and and eventually you 1432 01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,720 Speaker 1: were you know, you marry that up to today and 1433 01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:40,360 Speaker 1: you're putting out books, films, what you're doing speaking engagements, 1434 01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:44,800 Speaker 1: you're doing photography classes. You're pretty much immersed in this 1435 01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:49,519 Speaker 1: life that that is defined by success, many successes, many 1436 01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:54,120 Speaker 1: varying successes at different levels. Um, how does that feel? 1437 01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:56,520 Speaker 1: Just as I just remove everything else, just as a photographer, 1438 01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:59,680 Speaker 1: just as a creativity, just a creative person. Yeah, you know, 1439 01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:02,439 Speaker 1: you've feel it's a it's a positive thing. You know, 1440 01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:06,360 Speaker 1: you feel like that you've achieved. I know that in 1441 01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:10,760 Speaker 1: the early years, you know, there was this yearning what 1442 01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:15,919 Speaker 1: is the sign of when will I know that success 1443 01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:19,960 Speaker 1: has right? Uh, It's like I told my students, Uh, 1444 01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:25,000 Speaker 1: not not necessarily monetary in monetary ways. There are other 1445 01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:31,240 Speaker 1: other times, other aspects, other elements that define success. And 1446 01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:33,960 Speaker 1: one of them is, you know, are some of them 1447 01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,400 Speaker 1: are people calling you? You know, would you please come 1448 01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:41,439 Speaker 1: and share your knowledge with us? And uh, or share 1449 01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:45,599 Speaker 1: your imagery or we want to use your imagery. And 1450 01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:47,559 Speaker 1: of course obviously you know you want to get paid 1451 01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:50,479 Speaker 1: for it. But but still that people want to hear 1452 01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:53,160 Speaker 1: your word, they want to hear your your message. They 1453 01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:55,800 Speaker 1: want to know the experiences that you that you had 1454 01:25:55,840 --> 01:26:00,000 Speaker 1: to endure to get to where you are today. And uh, 1455 01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:02,800 Speaker 1: and I you know, I'll admit, you know, it's not 1456 01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:04,360 Speaker 1: like me in movies or anything. But you know, I've 1457 01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:06,800 Speaker 1: gone to Cabella's and places and people will come up 1458 01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:09,200 Speaker 1: and say, you know, you know, I'm a fan of yours, 1459 01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,880 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah blah, you know what you 1460 01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, sign your autograph, you know, And I and 1461 01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:20,040 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I'm humbled by it. But when I leave, 1462 01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:24,240 Speaker 1: I feel good because I know that I really did arrive. 1463 01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:29,559 Speaker 1: And again it's not something that I that I set 1464 01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,560 Speaker 1: as a goal. It was just It's just an ancillary 1465 01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:37,200 Speaker 1: thing of the success of a lot of hard work. 1466 01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:40,360 Speaker 1: And and I do appreciate it. And I tell people 1467 01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:44,400 Speaker 1: thank you so much because I appreciate people saying what 1468 01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:46,879 Speaker 1: you just did to me. It makes me feel like 1469 01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:50,280 Speaker 1: like what I've done is worth worth and is it impactful. 1470 01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:53,519 Speaker 1: I don't the same. But beyond the you know, even 1471 01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:56,800 Speaker 1: beyond photography, you'd have to admit to some level, because 1472 01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:58,439 Speaker 1: I remember when I first came up here and I 1473 01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:02,600 Speaker 1: was describing, man, I met this guy, like this exceptional 1474 01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:08,240 Speaker 1: fella in Benjamin Kayok killing some be but exceptional. So 1475 01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:10,680 Speaker 1: you don't have to admit to some level of exceptionalism 1476 01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:14,960 Speaker 1: outside of of your professional life in your career, just 1477 01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:20,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to building your own calls, having a 1478 01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:23,680 Speaker 1: book of all your kayo kills, the histories that are 1479 01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:28,559 Speaker 1: are in the jail have remodeling that jail house, and 1480 01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,640 Speaker 1: and having to be featured on what HTTV building a 1481 01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:35,479 Speaker 1: dugout with your brother Rick. So you I want to 1482 01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:37,280 Speaker 1: get you to admit to some level of like just 1483 01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,599 Speaker 1: exceptionalism outside of just hey, I wake up in the morning, 1484 01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:42,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this or that. I mean, they're just 1485 01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:45,439 Speaker 1: is uh something in you? Yes, there's a drive, there's 1486 01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:47,960 Speaker 1: a fire, there's a fire that I have to excel. 1487 01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:50,280 Speaker 1: I can't. I'm not to kind of get a person. 1488 01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:52,160 Speaker 1: And then I know a lot of my friends this way, 1489 01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:54,800 Speaker 1: my boys, this way. You get up in the morning 1490 01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:57,519 Speaker 1: and you want to achieve something. I don't care if 1491 01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:59,920 Speaker 1: it's building a Kayo call. I don't care if it's 1492 01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:04,519 Speaker 1: more in the lawn exactly right, are building a wooden box? 1493 01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:06,840 Speaker 1: You know. I want to know by the end of 1494 01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:10,040 Speaker 1: the day, I have achieved something that I can be, 1495 01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:13,760 Speaker 1: that I can take pride in and and something that 1496 01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:17,200 Speaker 1: is lasting that I can turn around and view and 1497 01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:21,439 Speaker 1: go I did that. And that's just the way I'm built. 1498 01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:25,400 Speaker 1: It's it's genetically coated in me. My father was that way. 1499 01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:28,559 Speaker 1: He worked too much. He was a workaholic. He was 1500 01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:32,960 Speaker 1: just an old cowboy work, you know, born in eighteen nine, eighteen, 1501 01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:37,280 Speaker 1: worked through the depression, was hungry and he knew he 1502 01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:39,479 Speaker 1: had to work. And I was told by the old 1503 01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:42,240 Speaker 1: timers that he was a hell of a horseman. He 1504 01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:46,080 Speaker 1: rode the rough string at some of these ranches, rode 1505 01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:50,240 Speaker 1: their bad horses. He was just cut like that. And uh, 1506 01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:52,800 Speaker 1: and that's just that's just the way that some of 1507 01:28:52,880 --> 01:29:00,360 Speaker 1: us are. And um. And like yesterday, yesterday, I had 1508 01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:02,120 Speaker 1: the grandkids there, but I wanted to take a break 1509 01:29:02,120 --> 01:29:03,720 Speaker 1: and go out to my shop and I built a 1510 01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:07,479 Speaker 1: Kyo call and I felt great, I felt wonderful. I 1511 01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:09,160 Speaker 1: went back to the house and went, I have a 1512 01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:13,080 Speaker 1: cheese something. Today. I built a kyo call that is 1513 01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:16,639 Speaker 1: so good that I'm putting it in my personal collection. Yeah, 1514 01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,640 Speaker 1: that's yesterday. That was yesterday. Yeah, when I when I 1515 01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:22,479 Speaker 1: came up here the first time you had I remember 1516 01:29:22,479 --> 01:29:24,360 Speaker 1: you had we were over there at the Spike Box 1517 01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:26,040 Speaker 1: f Nance and you came out and you had your 1518 01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:28,240 Speaker 1: book of all the kaya Kills. And we looked at 1519 01:29:28,240 --> 01:29:31,160 Speaker 1: that and I thought, I've never seen I mean, these 1520 01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:37,400 Speaker 1: are you know how many notebooks are there now? One, two, three, 1521 01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:41,200 Speaker 1: four or five and around five or six seven, something 1522 01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:42,920 Speaker 1: like that. And to describe what this looks like, this 1523 01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:45,760 Speaker 1: is a stack of old to new body like. Some 1524 01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:50,000 Speaker 1: of them are held together with great tape, little dusty, 1525 01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:54,080 Speaker 1: dirty duct tape. You have, dirty, bloody And it's essentially 1526 01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:56,280 Speaker 1: a roll of row of columns. And you you wrote, 1527 01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:59,719 Speaker 1: you can tell me but where, Yeah, I put the date, 1528 01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:04,880 Speaker 1: the location, the rifle of the distance, if he was 1529 01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:09,040 Speaker 1: running or walking, the age, the way, the gender, the 1530 01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:12,200 Speaker 1: weather conditions, if I called him up, the direction the 1531 01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:16,560 Speaker 1: approached in the direction of the wind. And then comments 1532 01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:21,160 Speaker 1: was he was he in good condition? Um? You know, 1533 01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:23,800 Speaker 1: was there something wrong with him? That type of thing. 1534 01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:25,400 Speaker 1: And so you can flip through. And I remember the 1535 01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:27,200 Speaker 1: first time you did very flip through and be like 1536 01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:30,519 Speaker 1: there you up sixty nine, Me and old Bob waters 1537 01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:36,879 Speaker 1: the winds out of the north, and this kid approached 1538 01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:39,160 Speaker 1: up this little royal and he shot him at twenty yards. 1539 01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:41,880 Speaker 1: And I and I've since I've taken my my notes 1540 01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:48,000 Speaker 1: to a statistician and he has gone through bless his heart. Wow, 1541 01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:50,400 Speaker 1: that was that was a job amassing all this. I 1542 01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:52,960 Speaker 1: had to go through all my notes and put him 1543 01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:57,520 Speaker 1: in order and then gave him to the statistician Neil Wilkins, 1544 01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:03,240 Speaker 1: and he came up with all this data wind direction, 1545 01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:09,360 Speaker 1: average wind velocity, average weight. Uh does male do male? Uh? 1546 01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:13,120 Speaker 1: Cotes answer a call more prevalent than a female? Blah 1547 01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:16,800 Speaker 1: blah blah. And then I went in and then slice 1548 01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:22,439 Speaker 1: this into time frames and figured out, uh, you know, 1549 01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:26,519 Speaker 1: the percentage of coves that would come up wind, down wind, 1550 01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:32,240 Speaker 1: cross wind, Uh, the average distance they were, Um, you know, 1551 01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:35,360 Speaker 1: the average male and the female. What what the what 1552 01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:39,400 Speaker 1: the ratio was? And broke that down and I keep 1553 01:31:39,479 --> 01:31:42,240 Speaker 1: that and now do that each year. And I just 1554 01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:45,360 Speaker 1: finished this last my last season, just just a few 1555 01:31:45,439 --> 01:31:48,559 Speaker 1: days and going I'm going this could get oh real quick, 1556 01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:52,760 Speaker 1: The hell have I been doing a god? You know, 1557 01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,640 Speaker 1: I get to get the calculators and they're picking in 1558 01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:58,400 Speaker 1: the numbers and go I thought through this not teams 1559 01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:02,720 Speaker 1: seven before, and I got out of heck, you know, statistics, 1560 01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:05,640 Speaker 1: I love it, but yeah, it just it draws me 1561 01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:07,559 Speaker 1: back to this when you see you know folks would 1562 01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:12,639 Speaker 1: ever see that book. Um, it's just this exceptional display 1563 01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:17,400 Speaker 1: of of I'm not even sure other than just say 1564 01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:20,800 Speaker 1: like there's there's an exceptionalism to the consistency with which 1565 01:32:20,840 --> 01:32:23,479 Speaker 1: over the years that you did that. That statutician Neil 1566 01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:27,000 Speaker 1: Wilkins told me, he said, this is very interesting because 1567 01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:30,360 Speaker 1: I doubt there are there are there is any data 1568 01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:33,680 Speaker 1: like this anywhere anywhere in the world. How could there 1569 01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:39,160 Speaker 1: be this is there couldn't put the range of the 1570 01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:42,080 Speaker 1: kia or it's lived for that many years, because they've 1571 01:32:42,080 --> 01:32:44,640 Speaker 1: been certainly been spread around in the recent years, but 1572 01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:48,479 Speaker 1: they weren't always spread around this country. Uh, the amount 1573 01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:51,720 Speaker 1: of years where the kio lived, in the amount of 1574 01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:55,120 Speaker 1: times that you recorded the KaiA, it's crazy. Couldn't be. 1575 01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:58,559 Speaker 1: And I started when I started it. The first note 1576 01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:01,519 Speaker 1: that I ever took was October's seventeenth, nineteen sixty five, 1577 01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,599 Speaker 1: when I shot my first one, and all it was 1578 01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,160 Speaker 1: was a card, a little fold that card that you 1579 01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:09,679 Speaker 1: would put in a file, and it had Wyman Men's 1580 01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:16,280 Speaker 1: are Killed A code to fift PM. October sevent nineteen 1581 01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:20,479 Speaker 1: sixty five with a thirty thirty Marlin with a two 1582 01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:23,240 Speaker 1: and a half power scope with a hundred fifty grain 1583 01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:27,800 Speaker 1: bullet shot running at two hundred forty seven yards. Who 1584 01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:31,240 Speaker 1: was with me, my friend Kermit Woollie. That was the 1585 01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:36,360 Speaker 1: first note I ever wrote on on hunting, and and 1586 01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:40,719 Speaker 1: then and then after that, I would just put one, two, three, five, 1587 01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,760 Speaker 1: six seven, then I put a mark to it. And 1588 01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:44,920 Speaker 1: then when I got to a hundred, I went, I'm 1589 01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:47,599 Speaker 1: gonna start keeping more detailed notes. And then I started 1590 01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:49,479 Speaker 1: keeping him a little bit more detail, and then way 1591 01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:52,960 Speaker 1: more detail, and then got deeper into it. And so 1592 01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:55,240 Speaker 1: now I've got a And then there were years that 1593 01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:57,600 Speaker 1: I would kind of very ago, I'm too busy to 1594 01:33:57,640 --> 01:34:00,880 Speaker 1: put that many notes down, but I would document. I 1595 01:34:00,880 --> 01:34:04,520 Speaker 1: would document, but I might not put the weather conditions 1596 01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:09,200 Speaker 1: or something like that. But now it's absolute. In the 1597 01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,680 Speaker 1: last you know, eight or ten years, it's absolute. I 1598 01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:15,680 Speaker 1: don't miss any notes. I even put a blood if 1599 01:34:15,720 --> 01:34:18,280 Speaker 1: I kill the kid, if if I'm not photographing, I'll 1600 01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:21,519 Speaker 1: actually put a blood print. I put my fingerprint, and 1601 01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:26,800 Speaker 1: I put a blood spot. And and I actually had 1602 01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:30,280 Speaker 1: dinner with uh, with one of the greatest cat men 1603 01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:35,519 Speaker 1: in America. While researcher Mike Toois, who knows more about 1604 01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:39,040 Speaker 1: Austin than any man in the world. And I told 1605 01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:41,120 Speaker 1: me about my notes, and he said, one of these days, 1606 01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:43,880 Speaker 1: I would like to look at your Bobcat notes and 1607 01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:46,840 Speaker 1: your blood prints, because I we might be able to 1608 01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:51,120 Speaker 1: take DNA samples from those blood prints and find out 1609 01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:53,719 Speaker 1: something about the bobcats and you're part of the country 1610 01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:57,240 Speaker 1: versus bobcats elsewhere. And that's one of the reasons I 1611 01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:00,479 Speaker 1: did that blood print, because I got to thinking, what 1612 01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:05,679 Speaker 1: if the old wolf trappers in the nineteenth century who 1613 01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:12,080 Speaker 1: exterminated the Texas buffalo wolf, but I mean literally exterminated 1614 01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:16,479 Speaker 1: that wolf. I don't remember. The subspecies was Kenis lupus, 1615 01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:20,080 Speaker 1: one of them was monstrobolis, and then there was another 1616 01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:23,280 Speaker 1: and there's like three different wolves in Texas of gray wolves, 1617 01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:26,360 Speaker 1: but they exterminated. Well, what if each one of those 1618 01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:29,160 Speaker 1: guys would have kept a blood print, but they could 1619 01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:37,880 Speaker 1: take the DNA and compare it with the wolves in Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Alaska, Ontario, 1620 01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:42,519 Speaker 1: British Columbia. What if? And so I said, you know, 1621 01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna starting doing that so and I won't realize it, 1622 01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:48,840 Speaker 1: but some day somebody might realize something from this that's 1623 01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:53,160 Speaker 1: positive yeah, and there will. It's no doubt about it 1624 01:35:53,160 --> 01:35:56,160 Speaker 1: in my mind. And that's too to see you walk 1625 01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:58,000 Speaker 1: out with a big stack of thingy like, that's a 1626 01:35:58,120 --> 01:36:01,559 Speaker 1: life right there. That's that is that am life. It is. 1627 01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:04,519 Speaker 1: It is a huge part of it. So the next 1628 01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:07,880 Speaker 1: exceptional thing that you've done, it's not in order at all. 1629 01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:11,840 Speaker 1: But you bought a jail, yes, and then you remodeled 1630 01:36:11,880 --> 01:36:14,760 Speaker 1: said jail, lived in that jail house. We're talking an 1631 01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:20,080 Speaker 1: old eighteen hundreds stone j right, So why did you 1632 01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:25,240 Speaker 1: do that? Could my ex wife wanted it? That could 1633 01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:28,439 Speaker 1: be serious another chapter of the book, right, and I did. 1634 01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:30,439 Speaker 1: I mean all I can see was a tremendous amount 1635 01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:32,840 Speaker 1: of work. And but we hired a couple of guys 1636 01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:35,600 Speaker 1: who are really good freelance guys. They weren't your you know, 1637 01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:38,600 Speaker 1: your follow you have to follow a line, you know 1638 01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:42,080 Speaker 1: this ABC, D f G. And these were the guys 1639 01:36:42,120 --> 01:36:44,400 Speaker 1: who would look at a blueprint and go, yeah, I 1640 01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:46,559 Speaker 1: think we can do this, or they look at us 1641 01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:50,320 Speaker 1: say yeah, let's do this. It may not be the 1642 01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:52,759 Speaker 1: exact way it should be done, but this is probably 1643 01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,800 Speaker 1: the way that it would be stronger. And they lived here. 1644 01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:58,360 Speaker 1: One of them is to cease now, but one of 1645 01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:01,240 Speaker 1: them still lives here and works for the Army Corp 1646 01:37:01,240 --> 01:37:06,160 Speaker 1: of Engineer Tracy Cartwright. And so together we put that 1647 01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:10,360 Speaker 1: we worked years on it, and uh and I it's 1648 01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:13,719 Speaker 1: it's it's a work. I'm very proud of the place. 1649 01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:15,320 Speaker 1: We don't live in it now. It's more or less 1650 01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:19,920 Speaker 1: a museum, but it represents another era. And in my 1651 01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:23,160 Speaker 1: appreciation of history, I can go in there and I 1652 01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:24,880 Speaker 1: can pick up that old jail book and I can 1653 01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:30,280 Speaker 1: look at the name October seven, W. E. Willis, horse theft, 1654 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:32,720 Speaker 1: the first guy ever thrown in there. Then you look 1655 01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:37,439 Speaker 1: down and a week later W E. Willis? You know, 1656 01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:42,519 Speaker 1: W was a popular dude here. And then I put 1657 01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:45,559 Speaker 1: this on Facebook, this page, and here this guy right, 1658 01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:50,120 Speaker 1: he said, W. Willis is my great great grandfather, and 1659 01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:54,479 Speaker 1: he was. He and Mr Drummond I think it was. 1660 01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:57,760 Speaker 1: That's just down the line from him. Was thrown in 1661 01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:03,280 Speaker 1: the state penitentiary and it escaped and w was never 1662 01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:05,519 Speaker 1: heard from again. We don't know where he went. But 1663 01:38:05,600 --> 01:38:07,760 Speaker 1: this other fellow turned up and lived a good life 1664 01:38:07,840 --> 01:38:10,880 Speaker 1: after that. But he said, we don't know where W went. 1665 01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:15,639 Speaker 1: He just disappeared. It's amazing, you know, all this stuff 1666 01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:18,160 Speaker 1: just pops up. It's amazing. Yeah, if you got your 1667 01:38:18,200 --> 01:38:21,200 Speaker 1: own history, it's always yeah, it's just it's just all 1668 01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:24,839 Speaker 1: and you know, and I bought that jail nineteen eighty two, 1669 01:38:25,040 --> 01:38:27,160 Speaker 1: and so it was a around a hundred years old, 1670 01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:31,240 Speaker 1: hundred basically a hundred years old. And then he was like, yesterday, 1671 01:38:31,280 --> 01:38:33,160 Speaker 1: I get this email from this guy that tells me 1672 01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:36,880 Speaker 1: about W. Willis And I've been looking at his name 1673 01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:40,120 Speaker 1: since nineteen two. And you guys have worked on that 1674 01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:42,600 Speaker 1: jail for how long? Jeez? It took two and a 1675 01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:44,880 Speaker 1: half years. Was it crumbling when you bought it? It 1676 01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:49,960 Speaker 1: was a horrible condition that windows were all broken out, Uh, 1677 01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:54,280 Speaker 1: raining in the windows, the rock was disintegrating. It was 1678 01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,479 Speaker 1: just terrible. And so it just took. You know, we 1679 01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,519 Speaker 1: bought the thing for six thousand, and it took. I 1680 01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:04,040 Speaker 1: looked at the old uh, the old notes, the old 1681 01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:07,760 Speaker 1: entry in the courthouse, Uh, in the county notes, and 1682 01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:10,920 Speaker 1: it's cost six thousand dollars to build it. I paid 1683 01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:15,080 Speaker 1: six thousand dollars for a nineteen two and UH put 1684 01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:19,400 Speaker 1: about sixty thousand in it to refurbish it. And uh, 1685 01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:21,800 Speaker 1: and it's it's quite a deal. H g TV has 1686 01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:26,000 Speaker 1: been there three times, and it's beautiful and it's like 1687 01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:28,519 Speaker 1: you know when you know. Yetie came and they did 1688 01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:32,160 Speaker 1: all their interviews in the jail, and then last a 1689 01:39:32,240 --> 01:39:35,920 Speaker 1: year ago, this past June, Best made Uh out of 1690 01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:38,559 Speaker 1: New York City came and shot the catalog, some of 1691 01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:41,639 Speaker 1: it in the jail. It's just a really neat place. 1692 01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:44,559 Speaker 1: And and when people come in, you know, sometimes someone 1693 01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:46,519 Speaker 1: will stop said, man, that's a neat place and said, 1694 01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:49,439 Speaker 1: how would you like to go for a walk through? 1695 01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:51,640 Speaker 1: Would you really take me through? That said sure, I 1696 01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:53,840 Speaker 1: got some time. One day I stopped and there's three 1697 01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:56,559 Speaker 1: guys standing in the ditch, So can I help you? 1698 01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,080 Speaker 1: And they said, ah really, I said, well, I own 1699 01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:01,479 Speaker 1: that place right there. I said, would you like a visit? 1700 01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:04,280 Speaker 1: And there were three Texas Rangers. He said, oh, you 1701 01:40:04,360 --> 01:40:06,880 Speaker 1: take us through. I said sure, so would give me 1702 01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:08,800 Speaker 1: a minute. A part took him through there, and I 1703 01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:12,360 Speaker 1: mean they were so happy, so thankful. And of course 1704 01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:13,920 Speaker 1: one of the guys that used to live in there 1705 01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:16,920 Speaker 1: in the twenties was a Texas Ranger when he died 1706 01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:20,040 Speaker 1: home with Team Melton. He's an old buddy of mine 1707 01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:22,559 Speaker 1: and he'd tell me stories when he was a kid 1708 01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:25,759 Speaker 1: leaving to jail and nineteen twenties during the Prohibition years, 1709 01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:30,400 Speaker 1: and all the people his daddy threw in jail, including 1710 01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:35,400 Speaker 1: the sister of Ernest Tub, the country singer Ernest Tub Yeah, 1711 01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:40,080 Speaker 1: Jules Snailson, and that I mean when he walked through 1712 01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:42,840 Speaker 1: that place. You've kept it, You've updated it to this 1713 01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:47,640 Speaker 1: beautiful I mean it could be a bed and breakfast, um, 1714 01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:51,200 Speaker 1: but it still has the original bars on something, a 1715 01:40:51,200 --> 01:40:54,600 Speaker 1: lot of the windows still a lot of the bars, 1716 01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:57,040 Speaker 1: and so it just has this it's much like I think, 1717 01:40:57,040 --> 01:40:58,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of like the way you lived your life. 1718 01:40:58,760 --> 01:41:01,040 Speaker 1: It's like this beauty full representation of who you are, 1719 01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:05,400 Speaker 1: your creativity. But it's it's it's has respect for what 1720 01:41:05,439 --> 01:41:07,439 Speaker 1: it is, respect for the history of that building to 1721 01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:10,599 Speaker 1: what it means. And so it's it's another I say, 1722 01:41:10,720 --> 01:41:14,000 Speaker 1: like another example. The other example is you and your 1723 01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:18,320 Speaker 1: brother Rick build a dugout angler creek dugout on the 1724 01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:21,280 Speaker 1: creek dug out. I took a few years off your life. 1725 01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:26,200 Speaker 1: That came from that came from our appreciation for the 1726 01:41:26,280 --> 01:41:28,280 Speaker 1: life our mother lad when she had lived in a 1727 01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:31,880 Speaker 1: dugout when she was a young child during the depression. 1728 01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:34,160 Speaker 1: And the dugout is essentially just a hole. That's a 1729 01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:36,040 Speaker 1: hole dug in the back of the bank with a 1730 01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:38,640 Speaker 1: with a roof put on top of it and the 1731 01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:42,080 Speaker 1: roof covered in dirt with a stove pope steaking at 1732 01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:46,439 Speaker 1: the top. And we worked from February of I think 1733 01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:52,000 Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen, and we finished that thing and 1734 01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:56,519 Speaker 1: like about November of two thousand and fifteen. And it 1735 01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:58,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't work on it, you know, on weekends and and 1736 01:41:59,320 --> 01:42:02,120 Speaker 1: but the main thing is like we consistently and we 1737 01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:04,720 Speaker 1: we had a plan. Let's do abcd f G. We 1738 01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:09,559 Speaker 1: I actually saw a dugout in the sixties when I 1739 01:42:09,560 --> 01:42:12,240 Speaker 1: was cowboying on the ranch, and it was a one 1740 01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:15,479 Speaker 1: man dugout. And I remember the construction of it. I 1741 01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:17,920 Speaker 1: remember getting on my hands knees and looking inside and 1742 01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:20,800 Speaker 1: seeing how they had the ridge pole and and the 1743 01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:24,200 Speaker 1: support poles. And so that's the way we built it 1744 01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:29,599 Speaker 1: and um and it's built to stay. It'll be here 1745 01:42:29,640 --> 01:42:32,360 Speaker 1: for a long long time. We built it to last. 1746 01:42:32,400 --> 01:42:37,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that might crumbled in five years to 1747 01:42:37,160 --> 01:42:40,200 Speaker 1: that place. Now, you guys cut how many trees? How 1748 01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:44,439 Speaker 1: many days there were days we were cut we would 1749 01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:47,840 Speaker 1: go cut red cedars. We traded. We traded a bunch 1750 01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:49,840 Speaker 1: of We traded a case of beer for a bunch 1751 01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,680 Speaker 1: of red cedar trees. And we would go out and 1752 01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:56,400 Speaker 1: I remember the wait, what kind of beer was it? Uh? 1753 01:42:56,479 --> 01:42:58,559 Speaker 1: It's uh. We told the guy just buy something, we'd 1754 01:42:58,600 --> 01:43:00,240 Speaker 1: would pay for it. It It might have been and I 1755 01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:03,760 Speaker 1: might have been some some Coors Light. I don't preferably 1756 01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:09,320 Speaker 1: it was dos Achies, but he or yeah, but uh anyway, Um, 1757 01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:12,400 Speaker 1: I remember one day it was dove season and we 1758 01:43:12,439 --> 01:43:14,679 Speaker 1: had a hundred and like a hundred two degree days. 1759 01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:17,479 Speaker 1: Wind was blowing. God, it was hot. We were right 1760 01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:20,559 Speaker 1: there cutting those things. They weighed like a hundred fifty 1761 01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:24,280 Speaker 1: pounds each, thirty five ft long. Was carrying him out 1762 01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:26,040 Speaker 1: if we took the cut the limbs off of them, 1763 01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:28,400 Speaker 1: loading him in a trader. And here comes the game 1764 01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:30,080 Speaker 1: ward and driving up and he'd been watching us and 1765 01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,800 Speaker 1: he thought we were dove hunting, and he's he's a 1766 01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:36,200 Speaker 1: good guy, great guy. He said, Oh, I thought y'all 1767 01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:38,400 Speaker 1: were hunters, and I was come to check your license. 1768 01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:41,400 Speaker 1: I said, no, we're just cutting these trees. Were working 1769 01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:44,080 Speaker 1: on our dugout and I said, I said man, if 1770 01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:46,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna give us a ticket, give us a ticket. 1771 01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:48,800 Speaker 1: If you're if you're not gonna get out and help 1772 01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:52,040 Speaker 1: us or give us a ticket, just move on, man, 1773 01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:57,720 Speaker 1: he said, I believe I'm gonna leave there and man 1774 01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:01,080 Speaker 1: at work. But we uh, oh, my jeez. I don't 1775 01:44:01,120 --> 01:44:03,240 Speaker 1: know how we survived through that, because I remember one 1776 01:44:03,320 --> 01:44:08,519 Speaker 1: day shoveling dirt onto that roof for six hours, six hours, 1777 01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:11,439 Speaker 1: and I didn't know at the time I had like blocks. Yeah, 1778 01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:14,800 Speaker 1: we were talking about that the next year, and in 1779 01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:17,479 Speaker 1: November of two December of two thousand and sixteen, I 1780 01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:21,080 Speaker 1: had to have a stint in my left left artery. 1781 01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:23,320 Speaker 1: We'll talk about one to achieve something. I mean, there 1782 01:44:23,400 --> 01:44:25,559 Speaker 1: is zero reason for you guys to build that, like 1783 01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:27,640 Speaker 1: the zero practical reason for you guys to build a 1784 01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:30,680 Speaker 1: dugout right. It was just it was just an appreciation 1785 01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,439 Speaker 1: for an old whale wife. And like I said, we'll 1786 01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:36,479 Speaker 1: be there for We can go there and take our kid, 1787 01:44:36,560 --> 01:44:38,760 Speaker 1: we can go there and take friends, we can celebrate, 1788 01:44:39,080 --> 01:44:40,920 Speaker 1: we can open a bottle of wine on a fall 1789 01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:44,800 Speaker 1: evening or in or spend the night, get up on 1790 01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,080 Speaker 1: the deck and set up there and and listen to 1791 01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:50,760 Speaker 1: the wild turkey and listen to the bird's call and say, 1792 01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:53,839 Speaker 1: that's the sound of winter, that's the sound of spring, 1793 01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:57,679 Speaker 1: that's the sound of fall. That's the first geese I've 1794 01:44:57,680 --> 01:45:00,120 Speaker 1: heard come in. Those are the sand hill cranes us 1795 01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:03,519 Speaker 1: the beginning of autumn. And just and just talk about that, 1796 01:45:03,600 --> 01:45:06,439 Speaker 1: and that takes us back to when we were young, 1797 01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:08,960 Speaker 1: and when we lived a quarter of a mile away 1798 01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,840 Speaker 1: where we were raised, when we used to walk down 1799 01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:16,160 Speaker 1: to that same spot and hunt like fifty yards away 1800 01:45:16,240 --> 01:45:19,400 Speaker 1: with an old sawt off twive gate shotgun that was 1801 01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:23,680 Speaker 1: held together with copper wire that had bulges in the 1802 01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:27,200 Speaker 1: barrel where people had shot with with something in the barrel, 1803 01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:31,360 Speaker 1: and and uh, dangerous is heck? But that's the guns 1804 01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:36,400 Speaker 1: we used, and and and reminisce and have a good time. Yeah, 1805 01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:38,960 Speaker 1: Well that's where you are, you know. I'm sure it's 1806 01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:41,600 Speaker 1: your life now. In the Yetie film you said you 1807 01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:46,920 Speaker 1: gotta be at a and and so you're a z um. 1808 01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:52,160 Speaker 1: You got grandkids, we'd say, seven grand grandkids, a wonderful wife, 1809 01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:56,040 Speaker 1: great home here, lots of lots of friends, lots of friends, 1810 01:45:56,080 --> 01:45:59,240 Speaker 1: lots of memories, lots of artifacts from your life and 1811 01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:01,920 Speaker 1: other folks life. They appreciate it. I mean, what's what's 1812 01:46:01,960 --> 01:46:03,719 Speaker 1: the feeling when you get up in the morning nowadays? 1813 01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean, what's up again? It's what can I do today? 1814 01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:09,519 Speaker 1: What can I do today that I can achieve something? 1815 01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:15,480 Speaker 1: And um and I and I suppose it will never change. 1816 01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:18,320 Speaker 1: I want to achieve and I don't care how how 1817 01:46:18,360 --> 01:46:21,559 Speaker 1: minimal it is, how how insignificant people are. Why why 1818 01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:24,479 Speaker 1: are you building that the little call? You know, it's 1819 01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:27,320 Speaker 1: because I want to and I want it to sound 1820 01:46:27,479 --> 01:46:31,040 Speaker 1: just right to where I can put it down and 1821 01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:35,479 Speaker 1: say I have I have achieved something positive, something that 1822 01:46:35,520 --> 01:46:38,559 Speaker 1: I can use or I cannot use. But it's something 1823 01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:42,120 Speaker 1: that someday someone will look at with my initials and 1824 01:46:42,200 --> 01:46:45,320 Speaker 1: say he built this. This is from why i'man menzer 1825 01:46:46,479 --> 01:46:51,640 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of that hopefully. Yeah, you're a 1826 01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:53,400 Speaker 1: part of this land. This land is a part of you, 1827 01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:56,360 Speaker 1: I'd like to think. So that's definitely as part of me. 1828 01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:59,240 Speaker 1: It's it's it Its shaped my whole, my whole life. 1829 01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:02,800 Speaker 1: It shaped myself. I mean it's from a child. I mean, 1830 01:47:03,360 --> 01:47:09,400 Speaker 1: it's the light, the roughness of the land. To the 1831 01:47:09,479 --> 01:47:12,600 Speaker 1: American called it. Lizards that used to fascinate me to 1832 01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:15,320 Speaker 1: the bones of a of a mami stick and have 1833 01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:19,320 Speaker 1: a creek bank, uh, finding a buffalo skull. All those 1834 01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:24,599 Speaker 1: things have have created the foundation for what I am today. 1835 01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:27,680 Speaker 1: What what do you say? I think I know what 1836 01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:29,960 Speaker 1: you'd say, But what would you say to somebody who 1837 01:47:30,439 --> 01:47:32,080 Speaker 1: Because I think there's a lot of people that listen 1838 01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:36,640 Speaker 1: to this particular program that maybe your thirty five or 1839 01:47:36,680 --> 01:47:41,040 Speaker 1: forty or twenty five, or just are curious about hunting 1840 01:47:41,240 --> 01:47:43,439 Speaker 1: just starting out. I've met a lot of them. I 1841 01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:45,400 Speaker 1: heard fu lot of them via email, I've heard from 1842 01:47:45,400 --> 01:47:49,280 Speaker 1: a lot of them on messages from different platforms that 1843 01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:53,800 Speaker 1: are it's curious about hunting, getting outside. They're new to it. 1844 01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:57,200 Speaker 1: They're not children, they're adults. They have fully formed a 1845 01:47:57,439 --> 01:48:00,479 Speaker 1: lot of their opinions in the world. But either kind 1846 01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,880 Speaker 1: of going outside with this newfound motivation to discover everything 1847 01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:06,439 Speaker 1: that they've never known, This wild places that you grew 1848 01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:09,280 Speaker 1: up in you were lucky enough to have been presented 1849 01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:11,760 Speaker 1: to you when you were just a little one. What 1850 01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:13,639 Speaker 1: would you say to those folks that are going outside? 1851 01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:15,519 Speaker 1: When they go outside, what should they look for? What 1852 01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:19,280 Speaker 1: should how should they think and try to be as 1853 01:48:19,360 --> 01:48:21,800 Speaker 1: close to the land as possible. Don't go and sit 1854 01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:26,040 Speaker 1: in a blind, don't go stare mindlessly at a feeder. 1855 01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:29,920 Speaker 1: Take that rifle. If you're gonna hunt, take that shotgun, 1856 01:48:30,080 --> 01:48:33,400 Speaker 1: take the pistol, take the bow. Go out and read 1857 01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:40,040 Speaker 1: sign and and wonder why why that animal was walking 1858 01:48:40,439 --> 01:48:43,800 Speaker 1: or heading in that direction on that particular day. Why 1859 01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:47,559 Speaker 1: were there so many snake tracks today and not so yesterday. 1860 01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:51,240 Speaker 1: Ask yourself the questions and try to find the answers, 1861 01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:55,360 Speaker 1: and and just be a thinker. And don't just don't 1862 01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:57,120 Speaker 1: don't just walk out of the gun and say I'm 1863 01:48:57,160 --> 01:49:00,000 Speaker 1: gonna go kill something and I'm gonna be happy because 1864 01:49:00,040 --> 01:49:03,000 Speaker 1: that's notice what it's about. Be a part of the land, 1865 01:49:03,560 --> 01:49:08,320 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, be be aware, be aware, be a 1866 01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:13,080 Speaker 1: part of the land, and be aware and appreciate uh 1867 01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:17,360 Speaker 1: and have reverence. Yeah, I would prescribe your reverence through 1868 01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:21,760 Speaker 1: this place after I mean reverence from everything to road 1869 01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:25,240 Speaker 1: runners to quail. I know I I look at each 1870 01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:29,360 Speaker 1: at each creature, and I know it's it's uh the 1871 01:49:29,439 --> 01:49:33,800 Speaker 1: reason for its existence. I know its job. I know 1872 01:49:33,840 --> 01:49:36,880 Speaker 1: it's placed in the equal system, and I appreciate. I 1873 01:49:36,880 --> 01:49:42,120 Speaker 1: don't kill rattlesnakes, you know, I avoid them if unless 1874 01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:44,800 Speaker 1: I'm taking photographs. I mean, I've crawled down into a 1875 01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:48,320 Speaker 1: DNA rattlesnakes and they'll be teen or fifteen rattlesnakes all 1876 01:49:48,360 --> 01:49:52,120 Speaker 1: around me. But I just go down there to take photographs, 1877 01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:54,839 Speaker 1: and I get up and leave. I get my images. 1878 01:49:55,760 --> 01:49:59,960 Speaker 1: I've done, I've I've created, my've I've enacted my career 1879 01:50:00,240 --> 01:50:03,320 Speaker 1: duty for the day. And they didn't bite me, and 1880 01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:06,400 Speaker 1: for that I appreciate it. And so and I invaded 1881 01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:09,679 Speaker 1: their place, and so I leave, But I have reverence 1882 01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:11,759 Speaker 1: from them. Now. I don't want them in my house. 1883 01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:16,640 Speaker 1: I'd rather they they not be in my yard. But 1884 01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:19,120 Speaker 1: whenever I see him any place sales, I go, hey, 1885 01:50:19,360 --> 01:50:22,559 Speaker 1: you belong here. I have reverence for you, and I 1886 01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:26,080 Speaker 1: know how to understand your job. Is there a way 1887 01:50:26,120 --> 01:50:28,639 Speaker 1: that you would because you talk a lot about last 1888 01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:32,040 Speaker 1: night at dinner and this morning and throughout this visit 1889 01:50:32,080 --> 01:50:36,880 Speaker 1: about how the difference and the types of people, types 1890 01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:40,000 Speaker 1: of humans in this world. You know, we label them 1891 01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:44,679 Speaker 1: with different labels, but there's there's We talked about soft 1892 01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:47,400 Speaker 1: and hard, we talked about liberal and republican. We talked 1893 01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:50,840 Speaker 1: about a lot of different types of people, but there 1894 01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:54,679 Speaker 1: certainly is people that enjoy wildlife, people enjoy going outside, 1895 01:50:54,720 --> 01:50:57,840 Speaker 1: people that don't do that. But as I said before, 1896 01:50:57,880 --> 01:50:59,720 Speaker 1: there's some chunk of people in the middle that just 1897 01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:04,240 Speaker 1: didn't have the you know, the luck or the circumstances 1898 01:51:04,320 --> 01:51:07,439 Speaker 1: that you had or even I've had in my life. Um, 1899 01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:10,439 Speaker 1: and they're curious, but never have never been presented that. 1900 01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:13,000 Speaker 1: How do you how do you feel after all your 1901 01:51:13,080 --> 01:51:15,280 Speaker 1: years of doing this that if somebody said, I have 1902 01:51:15,400 --> 01:51:18,720 Speaker 1: no idea about anything, I've not rarely ever been outside. 1903 01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:23,640 Speaker 1: Why do I approach this stuff? Well, you know, they 1904 01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:29,640 Speaker 1: need to to isolate the interest point, the point of 1905 01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:33,800 Speaker 1: interest that there that they they're seeking, read up on it, 1906 01:51:33,840 --> 01:51:35,720 Speaker 1: and then go out and just try to experience it. 1907 01:51:36,360 --> 01:51:37,960 Speaker 1: If you have to go to a state park, go 1908 01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:42,360 Speaker 1: to a national park, go high. But be observant, be 1909 01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:49,720 Speaker 1: aware and uh and and just be take notice, you know, 1910 01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:54,439 Speaker 1: of of all your surroundings from the vegetation. Understand that 1911 01:51:54,479 --> 01:51:58,200 Speaker 1: there's plants that that that that blossom in the fall. 1912 01:51:58,640 --> 01:52:01,919 Speaker 1: Why do they there's there's plants that blossom and nightfall 1913 01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:06,120 Speaker 1: and not during the daytime, you know, and and recognize that, 1914 01:52:07,040 --> 01:52:10,799 Speaker 1: study it and recognize that that some plants are essential 1915 01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,360 Speaker 1: for the existence of some species of animals. You know, 1916 01:52:14,760 --> 01:52:20,280 Speaker 1: understand that that that sticky lope bush with forns three 1917 01:52:20,280 --> 01:52:26,000 Speaker 1: inches long that produces that little berry, little purple berry 1918 01:52:26,080 --> 01:52:29,760 Speaker 1: that has a consistency of a near rotten apple, is 1919 01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:32,800 Speaker 1: one of the most sought after food atom items of 1920 01:52:32,880 --> 01:52:36,760 Speaker 1: coats in May in early June. That's just on the land. 1921 01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:40,360 Speaker 1: And know that all those mesquite beans daming from the 1922 01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:45,040 Speaker 1: from the limbs will soon be eaten by deer, wild hogs. 1923 01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:49,080 Speaker 1: It uh it u is an essential food item for 1924 01:52:49,160 --> 01:52:53,559 Speaker 1: all these animals. Unfortunately, some of them spread that its 1925 01:52:53,640 --> 01:52:58,160 Speaker 1: seed while also like the coat. When they eat a 1926 01:52:58,160 --> 01:53:02,040 Speaker 1: mesquite being, they virtually kill the viability of that seed. 1927 01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:06,000 Speaker 1: And people don't know that. It's amazing how many people 1928 01:53:06,040 --> 01:53:08,439 Speaker 1: around here thinking what kind spread p squite? I don't know. 1929 01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:11,720 Speaker 1: They don't hell I was involved in research and we've 1930 01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:17,080 Speaker 1: proved otherwise. Cattle spread it. They actually scarify the seed 1931 01:53:17,120 --> 01:53:20,920 Speaker 1: to where it grows better and faster, but when it 1932 01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:25,479 Speaker 1: goes through the couch uh digestive system, it kills the seed. 1933 01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:30,479 Speaker 1: Understand small things like that and just learn begin at 1934 01:53:30,520 --> 01:53:34,880 Speaker 1: the bottom. Begins slow with easy things, and work your 1935 01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:39,080 Speaker 1: way up. It takes time. It's taking me sixty seven 1936 01:53:39,160 --> 01:53:44,599 Speaker 1: years to get to this point. It's not an overnight thing. Yeah. 1937 01:53:44,640 --> 01:53:48,160 Speaker 1: I think that's with people that are either new or 1938 01:53:48,160 --> 01:53:50,240 Speaker 1: trying to get into this thing. That's what that's what 1939 01:53:50,360 --> 01:53:54,679 Speaker 1: it is. It's a discipline, very discipline, and it takes time. 1940 01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:57,799 Speaker 1: It takes time. I see that a lot in in people, 1941 01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:01,800 Speaker 1: and like say, for instance, rights photographers, I'll see that 1942 01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:03,960 Speaker 1: a lot in young ones, very young with just starting out. 1943 01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:08,840 Speaker 1: They want to go from A to Z, not A B, C, D, 1944 01:54:08,840 --> 01:54:12,080 Speaker 1: E f G. Yeah, that's not the way it works. 1945 01:54:13,200 --> 01:54:17,200 Speaker 1: It's very disciplined. You have to go through the stages 1946 01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,760 Speaker 1: and uh. And otherwise you're gonna be a flash in 1947 01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:25,040 Speaker 1: the pan. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. I mean today you 1948 01:54:25,640 --> 01:54:29,679 Speaker 1: have this do you have the internet, that's this wealth 1949 01:54:29,720 --> 01:54:32,520 Speaker 1: of information, but it's also this wealth of perspective or 1950 01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:34,360 Speaker 1: you see this guy's doing that, this guy's doing that's 1951 01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:37,160 Speaker 1: get lost in what everybody else might be doing, and 1952 01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:39,720 Speaker 1: I forget that. You have to change stiff to your 1953 01:54:39,760 --> 01:54:42,920 Speaker 1: own path, stick to your path, and understand that if 1954 01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:44,640 Speaker 1: you have a passion and you follow it, you'll get 1955 01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:48,360 Speaker 1: there eventually, get there tomorrow, right Uh. And you struggle. 1956 01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:51,600 Speaker 1: Awhile with that struggles damn good struggles, struggles worth it. 1957 01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:55,440 Speaker 1: If you if you stay stay hooked, well you've you 1958 01:54:55,480 --> 01:54:59,400 Speaker 1: certainly live the outdoor life. And and for them for 1959 01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:04,720 Speaker 1: Fielding Stream to call you that was that was pretty cool. Yeah, 1960 01:55:04,920 --> 01:55:07,360 Speaker 1: that was cool. I remember a guy I'd forgotten all 1961 01:55:07,400 --> 01:55:10,040 Speaker 1: about it, and a writer I think from hours somewhere. 1962 01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:14,320 Speaker 1: He called and he said, I'm I'm doing interviews with 1963 01:55:14,400 --> 01:55:19,240 Speaker 1: ten guys from Feeling. I picked my film stream and 1964 01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:21,960 Speaker 1: so I interviewed with him and totally forgot about it. 1965 01:55:22,640 --> 01:55:24,960 Speaker 1: And then a friend of mine, Ol Brothers, who's an 1966 01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:27,360 Speaker 1: old time or eight eighties, some fine years old South 1967 01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:29,840 Speaker 1: Takes has called me. When they said, have you seen 1968 01:55:29,880 --> 01:55:34,600 Speaker 1: film stream? I said no, it's well, you need to 1969 01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:38,600 Speaker 1: see it. I said, okay, al, I'll gave me a coffee. 1970 01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:41,760 Speaker 1: He said, you're in it. I said, well, what did 1971 01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:44,360 Speaker 1: I do? And he told me he said, you were 1972 01:55:44,400 --> 01:55:48,040 Speaker 1: Slavis one of the top ten outdoor legends in America. 1973 01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:52,680 Speaker 1: And I went really, And then then I went, I 1974 01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:58,680 Speaker 1: remember the guy interviewed me, and it was cool. It's 1975 01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:01,440 Speaker 1: it's really special, lant I appreciate it. And I think 1976 01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:05,040 Speaker 1: that was the last published issue all the risk of 1977 01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:06,960 Speaker 1: its own lane. I think. So there's something that that 1978 01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:10,600 Speaker 1: was online the part that I've read, but that gave 1979 01:56:10,640 --> 01:56:12,760 Speaker 1: me a smile. I thought, yeah, that's right, I got 1980 01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:16,280 Speaker 1: the hard copy. I got the last hard copy. Right. Well, 1981 01:56:16,320 --> 01:56:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no way to help folks understand like 1982 01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:24,040 Speaker 1: your ethos. So hopefully this conversation has but your ethos 1983 01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:26,000 Speaker 1: and your way of life and how that's led you 1984 01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:29,000 Speaker 1: to where you are. But is there one philosophy or 1985 01:56:29,080 --> 01:56:31,920 Speaker 1: ideology that you've had. I mean, we've talked about the 1986 01:56:31,920 --> 01:56:34,720 Speaker 1: hard work and the work ethic. Is there some parallel 1987 01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:38,200 Speaker 1: philosophy that we can end with that'll that'll really don't 1988 01:56:38,200 --> 01:56:40,200 Speaker 1: really wrap it up. A lot of pressure now, I know. 1989 01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:47,520 Speaker 1: Just I mean basically basically, it's uh having willingness to 1990 01:56:47,560 --> 01:56:49,600 Speaker 1: work hard and have that pack. You've got to have 1991 01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:53,880 Speaker 1: a passion. I remember an old photographer one time that 1992 01:56:53,920 --> 01:56:57,600 Speaker 1: I met from Medicine Lodge, Kansas, and I was just 1993 01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:02,920 Speaker 1: in early years and and we were out together on 1994 01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:06,000 Speaker 1: a ranch shooting photographs. It was early in the morning 1995 01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:09,920 Speaker 1: and the cowboys are saddling up for the sun came 1996 01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:12,040 Speaker 1: up and I was up on a hill ready to 1997 01:57:12,040 --> 01:57:15,640 Speaker 1: start shooting and he told me later, I said, well, 1998 01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:18,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, this is a hard, hard business, 1999 01:57:18,080 --> 01:57:21,520 Speaker 1: and he said, you'll do well. You've got a fire 2000 01:57:21,520 --> 01:57:27,360 Speaker 1: in your gut. I'll never forget that. Yeah, well, I 2001 01:57:27,360 --> 01:57:29,440 Speaker 1: mean I can. I thank you because you know, I'm 2002 01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:31,760 Speaker 1: getting ready to move out of Texas and then go 2003 01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:35,960 Speaker 1: on another little adventure here with my family. But it's 2004 01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:37,920 Speaker 1: it's been good to visit with you. The times I've 2005 01:57:37,920 --> 01:57:39,720 Speaker 1: been able to do it here, it's been an honor 2006 01:57:39,800 --> 01:57:43,360 Speaker 1: for me. You've been You've been special for me, and 2007 01:57:43,360 --> 01:57:45,400 Speaker 1: and I'm glad our paths crossed some time and go 2008 01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:48,200 Speaker 1: with with with the Winchester co hunt. Well, I'll always 2009 01:57:48,240 --> 01:57:51,080 Speaker 1: be able to say that. I think we sat fifteen 2010 01:57:51,120 --> 01:57:54,240 Speaker 1: maybe fifteen kyat stands in our time together, and I 2011 01:57:54,240 --> 01:57:56,840 Speaker 1: think you called it sixteen kIPS. Now, I didn't always 2012 01:57:56,840 --> 01:57:59,600 Speaker 1: do my job. Well, I didn't always do my job 2013 01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:04,000 Speaker 1: with them, right, we all miss believe me. My notes 2014 01:58:04,040 --> 01:58:07,520 Speaker 1: don't tell about Missy's. There's no book of miss No, 2015 01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:12,280 Speaker 1: come on, I could have a book of mrs that long. 2016 01:58:12,320 --> 01:58:17,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's you know, I always think of through 2017 01:58:17,320 --> 01:58:20,320 Speaker 1: my lifetime that there's people you meet and there's impacts 2018 01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:22,760 Speaker 1: that people have on you and just the person that 2019 01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:24,520 Speaker 1: you are. It means a lot to me, lots a 2020 01:58:24,520 --> 01:58:28,920 Speaker 1: lot of people, And I hope I hope that that 2021 01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:35,440 Speaker 1: I hope that my story inspires because I as the 2022 01:58:35,480 --> 01:58:38,680 Speaker 1: older I get, the more I realize that it is 2023 01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:42,360 Speaker 1: important to share a story that will give people inspiration, 2024 01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:47,680 Speaker 1: because too many individuals I've met over the years have 2025 01:58:47,800 --> 01:58:52,000 Speaker 1: a story of sadness, especially in the end years, and 2026 01:58:52,040 --> 01:58:56,160 Speaker 1: they wish they would have And many times after one 2027 01:58:56,160 --> 01:58:59,560 Speaker 1: of my presentations, I've heard people say I wish I 2028 01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:03,520 Speaker 1: would have Yeah, yeah, I mean it's if you fill 2029 01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:05,720 Speaker 1: your fill your cup up with love and passion, hard 2030 01:59:05,720 --> 01:59:09,320 Speaker 1: work man, try to treat other people good, be fair 2031 01:59:09,400 --> 01:59:13,480 Speaker 1: with other people. That that also was very important, you know, 2032 01:59:13,720 --> 01:59:17,960 Speaker 1: the and and and it will it will be reciprocated. Yeah. 2033 01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:20,880 Speaker 1: Then if you want to really kill coyotes, then just 2034 01:59:21,080 --> 01:59:22,440 Speaker 1: give a woman a call and get one of this 2035 01:59:23,440 --> 01:59:27,120 Speaker 1: and then hand carved open. Yeah. Wait, we're starting a 2036 01:59:27,120 --> 01:59:30,800 Speaker 1: new deal. I'm gonna I'm gonna actually send a photograph 2037 01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:35,000 Speaker 1: with eat with each purchase, a photograph of of one 2038 01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:37,240 Speaker 1: of my months at Batch Camp in the seventies of 2039 01:59:37,280 --> 01:59:40,400 Speaker 1: black and white old kind of a tin type version 2040 01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:45,960 Speaker 1: of me standing there with the furs, and also a note, uh, 2041 01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:51,120 Speaker 1: out of my kill notes Oh wow, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. 2042 01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:54,080 Speaker 1: We'll go yeah, Wyman Menser dot com? Is that where 2043 01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:56,200 Speaker 1: you go? Men dot com? I'd go there if I 2044 01:59:56,280 --> 01:59:59,880 Speaker 1: was at somebody listened to this age there. I hope, 2045 02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:02,120 Speaker 1: I hope you'll come and visit. All right, Thank you 2046 02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:07,840 Speaker 1: very much, thank you. That's it. That's all. Episode number 2047 02:00:07,880 --> 02:00:12,120 Speaker 1: twenty four is in the books. Thank you to woman, 2048 02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Men's here, Thank you to Texas. Thank you to the 2049 02:00:17,040 --> 02:00:19,280 Speaker 1: folks of Benjamin Texas for having me feed me your 2050 02:00:19,280 --> 02:00:24,560 Speaker 1: wonderful foods and let me ah meet your native son 2051 02:00:24,680 --> 02:00:28,400 Speaker 1: once again. Wyoman mens Uh. Woman and his wife Salinda 2052 02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:32,200 Speaker 1: are I would consider friends of mine good friends of mine. Uh. 2053 02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Woman is, for lack of a better term, a mentors 2054 02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:38,280 Speaker 1: to me, someone who has taught me a lot through 2055 02:00:38,440 --> 02:00:40,400 Speaker 1: just the way he's lived his life, taught me a 2056 02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:44,440 Speaker 1: lot through our own interactions. So if you ever make it, 2057 02:00:44,520 --> 02:00:46,840 Speaker 1: Benjamin Texas, stop by, I'm sure why. I'm gonna be 2058 02:00:46,880 --> 02:00:49,600 Speaker 1: happy to give you towards the jail house. I'm happy 2059 02:00:49,680 --> 02:00:52,280 Speaker 1: to show you his work and talk about his life, 2060 02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:57,320 Speaker 1: which is extraordinary. Until next time, we'll continue our towards 2061 02:00:57,320 --> 02:00:59,200 Speaker 1: through Texas. We're gonna talk to a man named Russell 2062 02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:05,160 Speaker 1: hunting Men Russell Cunningham being a amateur archaeologist that lives 2063 02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:08,000 Speaker 1: in near my home in Trippic Springs, Texas, and he 2064 02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:10,680 Speaker 1: has quite the collection of artifacts to share with us. 2065 02:01:11,200 --> 02:01:13,560 Speaker 1: So stick with us in the meantime the Hunting Collected 2066 02:01:13,640 --> 02:01:17,560 Speaker 1: dot com podcast articles videos. There you'll find a lot 2067 02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:21,160 Speaker 1: of stuff hopefully you'll enjoy. Stick with us. We're gonna 2068 02:01:21,240 --> 02:01:24,120 Speaker 1: keep this conversation rolling. Thank you so much for listen.