Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it Could Happen Here podcast
Speaker 2: about how things are falling apart and people trying to
Speaker 2: put them back together. Today, more in the how things
Speaker 2: are Falling apart category, we are talking about the border
Speaker 2: again and I'm joined by Gen Pud who you've heard
Speaker 2: from before, but just a reminder, Jen is a former
Speaker 2: senior patrol agent with the Border Patrol and now an
Speaker 2: immigrant rights activist.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Showjo, Thanks for having me again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome. So we're gathered here today, I guess
Speaker 2: to talk about this ridiculous spectacle of the Texas National
Speaker 2: Guard occupying some border adjacent land. The border, as I said,
Speaker 2: right down the middle of the river there. So they're
Speaker 2: not actually occupying that the physical border, right, they're occupying
Speaker 2: that the nearest land spot to it is that right, correct?
Speaker 3: The border in that area is in the middle of
Speaker 3: the river.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and preventing Border patrol from accessing the river. And
Speaker 2: I think, like we were just talking before we recorded,
Speaker 2: but the reporting on this has been a bit kind
Speaker 2: of slap shot. A lot of it have just been
Speaker 2: social media posting. So I was hoping that you could
Speaker 2: help us understand like a This isn't like like a
Speaker 2: standoff between Texas and the Border patrol, right, but it's
Speaker 2: not like Texas kind of swept in and suddenly they
Speaker 2: were there and they weren't there before it. Border patrol
Speaker 2: had to allow this to happen. To agree, is that
Speaker 2: fair to say?
Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say. I mean, at the moment,
Speaker 3: I think the administration is trying to portray that, you know,
Speaker 3: the Border Patrol tried to come out there and rescue.
Speaker 3: I think the latest I've heard is that reportedly there
Speaker 3: were six people in the river that were surrounding and
Speaker 3: they went to go rescue them, and the Texas military,
Speaker 3: the I guess Texas now Guard ended up blocking them
Speaker 3: and saying they can't go. Now, this park is a
Speaker 3: very well known park that during the Trump administration they
Speaker 3: were trying to build a wall. They've been wanting a
Speaker 3: wall there, but the people in that city, I believe
Speaker 3: it's equal pass is that they, you know, they don't
Speaker 3: want a wall there. That's the city park and they
Speaker 3: just don't want a wall right there. And so Greg
Speaker 3: Abbott has sent in Texas National Guard to put up
Speaker 3: all the razor wire, all the you know, plotation devices
Speaker 3: with she would call it a saw blade on the
Speaker 3: middle of it that they claim saves lives. All this
Speaker 3: stuff apparently is rescue technique stuff, and they claim it
Speaker 3: it saves more lives than it hurts. And so the
Speaker 3: people that put out this stuff to injure people or
Speaker 3: claiming that they didn't allow people to drown. So I
Speaker 3: find that hard to But at the same time, the
Speaker 3: Border Patrol is the Border Patrol is always silent, you know,
Speaker 3: they're always silent about this. They let CBP talk to
Speaker 3: talk for them. They'll let the administration talk for them.
Speaker 3: The Union is claiming that Greg Abbott is the best
Speaker 3: thing in the world. They think it's great that he
Speaker 3: stopped their own agents from rescuing a woman and two children.
Speaker 3: So apparently three of the people got back to shore
Speaker 3: on the Mexican side, and then the woman and two
Speaker 3: children ended up drowning and their bodies were found on
Speaker 3: the Mexican side. Texas military is claiming that when they
Speaker 3: were notified that people were in the river, they went
Speaker 3: and they shined lights and they looked, but they didn't
Speaker 3: see anything. We did have the I don't know if
Speaker 3: it was Texas Military, it was in the area of
Speaker 3: the state of Texas on the same Rio or Grande,
Speaker 3: where some either National Guard or Texas National Guard or
Speaker 3: military or somebody just was sitting in a boat in
Speaker 3: front of a woman with a child and she was
Speaker 3: starting to sink into the sand because it's like quicksand
Speaker 3: over there, and they wouldn't rescue her, and Border patrol
Speaker 3: drove by really fast and put away, So it's not
Speaker 3: surprising that they wouldn't go rescue them. This is the
Speaker 3: first time that they publicly said that they've had a
Speaker 3: confrontation with a border patrol. But I don't think the
Speaker 3: Border Patrol tried very hard to rescue them. I mean
Speaker 3: they do have boats and stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah they have yeah, yeah, they're there are many way helicopters. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they have lots of equipment to rescue people sometimes just
Speaker 2: let's desire, shall we say?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it's to me the interesting thing
Speaker 3: is watching Democratic politicians point their fingers at Greg Abbott,
Speaker 3: and rightly so for this, for this scene. But yet
Speaker 3: at the same time, what the Border Patrol does every day,
Speaker 3: Their deterns policies every day, kill people every day, So
Speaker 3: the Border Patrol is not doing anything different so to
Speaker 3: act like, oh my god, we didn't get out to
Speaker 3: save these migrants and we really wanted to is kind
Speaker 3: of like, well, I mean, people die probably every hour
Speaker 3: crossing that river and you haven't cured before, and we've
Speaker 3: been doing it since nineteen ninety four. So it's kind
Speaker 3: of it's kind of hard to get really upset at
Speaker 3: Greg Abbott, who's doing nothing but what the National Border
Speaker 3: Patrol has done for you know, thirty something years. And
Speaker 3: at the same time, the victims are always the migrants
Speaker 3: that you know, That's what we should be upset about,
Speaker 3: is that our policies, whether federal or state, are killing
Speaker 3: people who are seeking asylum and seeking safety. That's what
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think like this attempt to make it
Speaker 2: like Republican governor is killing migrants thing is an attempt
Speaker 2: to like distract us from the fact that democratic president
Speaker 2: is killing migrants in much greater numbers by virtue of
Speaker 2: the amount of land covered by you know, Biden's jurisdiction
Speaker 2: compared to Abbots. But yeah, I think it's very hypocritical.
Speaker 3: And it's it's funny to you in that or I'm
Speaker 3: not funny but ironic, and that the Border Patrolley Union
Speaker 3: is putting out the numbers of when Trump's last year
Speaker 3: as president of death on the southern border, and these
Speaker 3: are just the ones that they find, not yeah, the
Speaker 3: actual number, which is usually three to four times as many.
Speaker 3: And then they're saying, oh, look, in Biden's year, this
Speaker 3: has been twenty twenty three was the most deadly year.
Speaker 3: But it's like, you know, you guys never cared about
Speaker 3: how many people were dying before, and now sudden you're like,
Speaker 3: you're killing more minents than anybody else. Are you jealous?
Speaker 3: What's the deal?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the idea that these people are consend that
Speaker 2: they're like in Cumba, they keep people in open air
Speaker 2: attention for up to a week and in the freezing cold,
Speaker 2: you know, in San Diego Santasedro people are two people
Speaker 2: have died. In Santa Cedro person has died. In the
Speaker 2: number probably dozens more people have died crossing in other
Speaker 2: routes that we haven't seen this year. It's it's been
Speaker 2: not as wet as previous winters. But just in my
Speaker 2: just in this week, I've seen people in extremely dire
Speaker 2: medical distress, and I've seen border patrol scream at those
Speaker 2: people and scream that people trying to help those people
Speaker 2: and not do anything to help. So I'm finding it
Speaker 2: hard to buy that this is all Greg greg Abbott's fault,
Speaker 2: not that Greg Abbott is't a piece of shit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think we're in agreement on that, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: the the attempt to lay all the blame at Greg
Speaker 2: abbts feet and suggests that there isn't complete bipartisan agreement
Speaker 2: it seems on killing migrants even like we don't see
Speaker 2: in the Trump era, we saw you know, AOC turn
Speaker 2: up and cry at the you know, unaccompanyed children or
Speaker 2: the other separation of family separation attention, and we don't
Speaker 2: even see that anymore, Like we don't have any ear
Speaker 2: of that, and that's refected in the press. Right, we
Speaker 2: don't see anywhere near as much coverage of the brutality
Speaker 2: at the border as we used to. One thing that
Speaker 2: you've mentioned before we started with that you had there's
Speaker 2: some like there's pretty clear case law or Supreme Court
Speaker 2: decisions at least about like what BP could have done
Speaker 2: or what their rights are visa VI the National Guard,
Speaker 2: could you explain some of fat well.
Speaker 3: As clear immigration precedent, So in eighteen seventy five. So
Speaker 3: prior to the Civil War a little bit after the
Speaker 3: Civil War, states had always done their own immigration. So
Speaker 3: if you showed up in a boat on New Orleans
Speaker 3: in New Orleans Harbor, they would have their own immigration.
Speaker 3: You would have to pay a lot of times. In
Speaker 3: the California area, California was charging, especially Chinese migrants who
Speaker 3: were coming over for the railroad and the gold rush
Speaker 3: and things like that. When they brought groups of Chinese
Speaker 3: women over, then California would label the ball as prostitutes
Speaker 3: and no good people, and then they would put them
Speaker 3: in jail and then find the captain of the ship
Speaker 3: like five hundred dollars a person, which is by today's
Speaker 3: standards it's like over fourteen thousand dollars, such a lot
Speaker 3: of money. Yeah, yeah. And so one of the one
Speaker 3: of the female migrants in eighteen seventy five, so that
Speaker 3: you had no right to hold us in jail. You
Speaker 3: don't have this right. There's nothing that says that you
Speaker 3: have this right according to US law back then. And
Speaker 3: so the case is called Chai Cchy Lung Lung versus Freemen.
Speaker 3: And in eighteen seventy five the Supreme Court decision was
Speaker 3: that immigration is solely the federal government's right to enforce
Speaker 3: and not the States, simply because of diplomatic relations. Also
Speaker 3: that we have treaties with other countries, and we have
Speaker 3: relationships with other countries, and they believe that while allowing
Speaker 3: state to do their own immigration would then hurt the
Speaker 3: United States in diplomacy with these other countries. And then
Speaker 3: the other thing that they mentioned was that there have
Speaker 3: been no due process given to the migrants during the time,
Speaker 3: and that's sufforded to migrants, whether they're undocumented or not
Speaker 3: based on the Constitution. And then recently in two thousand.
Speaker 3: The most recent time that was brought up was in
Speaker 3: twenty twelve when Arizona sued the United States. The Supreme
Speaker 3: Court upheld in that case that law enforcement can question
Speaker 3: citizenship during a legal stop, but denied other parts of
Speaker 3: the Arizona law SB. Ten seventy, which allowed their peace
Speaker 3: officers to act like immigration officers. And they said, the
Speaker 3: reason why they can't do that, which is what greg
Speaker 3: Abbott is doing. The reason why Supreme Court said they
Speaker 3: can't do that in twenty twelve was because of Article
Speaker 3: six Clause two, which states that the Constitution federal laws.
Speaker 3: Treaties made under federal authority take priority over state laws.
Speaker 3: So it's, you know, the supremacy clause. Basically, it's what
Speaker 3: it is. And so it's kind of like what Trump
Speaker 3: did when he was in office, where he starts separating children,
Speaker 3: and he starts putting everybody he crosses the border, whether
Speaker 3: it's for asylum or for nefarious reasons. In between the poorts,
Speaker 3: he we'd take away their children. And I mean, that
Speaker 3: was in violation of the nineteen eighty Refugee Act, and
Speaker 3: yet nobody really fought it on that basis. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure why they didn't find it on that basis. I'm
Speaker 3: not an attorney, so I can't tell you, but at
Speaker 3: least you know this this decision Chai Lung versus Freeman,
Speaker 3: It's been around since eighteen seventy five and was brought
Speaker 3: up in twenty twelve, and the Supreme Court awesome used
Speaker 3: Chai Lung to make its argument of why Arizona couldn't
Speaker 3: have certain parts of SB ten seventy out. So what
Speaker 3: Greg Abbott is doing is the same thing Trump is doing.
Speaker 3: Is like, I will break the law, and you can
Speaker 3: take me to court and we'll see if this court
Speaker 3: agrees with what the last court said. So they're just
Speaker 3: breaking the law and then enduring people to take them
Speaker 3: to court is simply what they're doing. In in the
Speaker 3: middle of this, obviously the migrants are caught, the humanitarian
Speaker 3: organizations and everybody's caught. It causes chaos, basically, is what
Speaker 3: it's doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's causing an absolute mess at the border. And
Speaker 2: I think understandably what you hear from migrants is like
Speaker 2: the people who are better informed, who have access to information, resources, finances,
Speaker 2: are telling me that they don't want to go to Texas,
Speaker 2: right because right, it's a mess, and it's a mess
Speaker 2: that kills people. And that's exactly what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2: It's supposed to be uncertain, and it's supposed to be cruel.
Speaker 2: And so people who have the chance to you will
Speaker 2: come here. People who can't afford to right that they're
Speaker 2: coming north directly and it sort of takes us is there,
Speaker 2: you know, if they head directly north, but that that's
Speaker 2: where they end up. Taxas has a huge amount of border,
Speaker 2: of course, then they're the people who tend to be
Speaker 2: the ones who are forced across there. And unfortunately that's
Speaker 2: realotten a much higher, as you said, at my higher
Speaker 2: death rate, right, Nick, it's do you have a sense
Speaker 2: of like I suppose it will be hard to tell
Speaker 2: because we have very little and were proper statistics, but like,
Speaker 2: what is the most fatal kind of part of the border.
Speaker 3: It's difficult to tell if it's the Sonoran Desert or
Speaker 3: if it's the Rio Grande River. And I say that
Speaker 3: because we don't see half the bodies, or we probably
Speaker 3: don't see ninety percent of the bodies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know a lot of port deaths are on
Speaker 2: the t Reservation to Ho Reservation.
Speaker 3: In there's the bombing very goldwater bombing area that nobody's
Speaker 3: allowed in, but when they are occasionally allowed in, they
Speaker 3: find like groups of thirteen fifteen skeletons and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So I think it's a toss that between the Sonoran
Speaker 3: Desert and the Rio Grande River. The other problem with
Speaker 3: Texas's border is that primarily the majority of the property
Speaker 3: on the border in Texas is private property, and they
Speaker 3: tend to be very large ranches which may be no
Speaker 3: ranch hand or anybody goes out, you know, through the
Speaker 3: acres to see this and they might never ever find
Speaker 3: the bodies. It's kind of like the Sonoran desert and
Speaker 3: the Po nation and then the bombing range, and then
Speaker 3: just the fact that the desert will just destroy the
Speaker 3: bones pretty quickly, especially once the winds cover thinks up
Speaker 3: that we have a fair amountain Campo, as you know,
Speaker 3: in the Hakamba Campo Wilderness area and the mountains and
Speaker 3: the Laguna Mountains. But I don't think it's near as
Speaker 3: bad because you can look at those mountains and see
Speaker 3: how bad they are, and most people don't want to
Speaker 3: dare across those mountains, but many still do. Obviously I
Speaker 3: worked out there, You're familiar with that area, and so
Speaker 3: we have more than our fair share for certain. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but I would say I would say probably it's between
Speaker 3: Texas the Rio Grande and then the Sonora doesn't for.
Speaker 2: Sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, I think I think that makes sense.
Speaker 2: It's probably a good time for us to break the
Speaker 2: border is getting people. If these adverts probably aren't that,
Speaker 2: they're still not great. So you enjoy these products and services.
Speaker 2: All right, we are back, and Jen, I wanted to ask, like,
Speaker 2: with regard to these I think there's a couple of
Speaker 2: things that people might not be clear w on. We
Speaker 2: tried to explain them on the podcast before the first
Speaker 2: is like Border Patrol will always say that all the
Speaker 2: BP agents are first responders, right, It's this line that
Speaker 2: they have, And like do they like in terms of rescues,
Speaker 2: are they sort of like technically obliged to make rescues.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen people in very great stress and
Speaker 2: I've seen Border Patrol do nothing more times than I
Speaker 2: can count. So like I'm wondering, like is there some
Speaker 2: kind of like technical obligation that they have that they're
Speaker 2: just ignoring or is it sort of at the discretion
Speaker 2: of the agent whether they think it's safe. What's there
Speaker 2: like official policy there?
Speaker 3: Well, if you're an agent in the field and you
Speaker 3: come upon a migrant drowning in the water, you know
Speaker 3: has slipped and broken their leg, and you're trying to
Speaker 3: decide if you should go down into this area or
Speaker 3: jump in the water and stuff, it is up to
Speaker 3: the individual agent to decide if they can handle that.
Speaker 3: So what you find most often the agents who are
Speaker 3: in the boats and working on either the oceans and border.
Speaker 3: They work on the ocean in California and they work
Speaker 3: on the ocean. Yeah, and then obviously along the Rio Grande.
Speaker 3: All those agents have specific training obviously and swimming. All
Speaker 3: agents have training and swimming, but not at the level
Speaker 3: but the agents who are working on the water deck,
Speaker 3: so you have to go through extra training when you
Speaker 3: take that position. It's like being on a horse patrol.
Speaker 3: You have to go through horse training and so forth.
Speaker 3: But all agents are trained in just basic CPR, just
Speaker 3: basic splinting, that kind of first aid stuff, but not
Speaker 3: all agents are what they call it, not Vortech but
Speaker 3: four Star, the rescue organization that they have now, and
Speaker 3: that's didn't start until like the late nineties. And I
Speaker 3: didn't even see him when I was an agent, even
Speaker 3: though I was there until two thousand and one, I
Speaker 3: didn't see him out in Campo whenever we had a
Speaker 3: call about a rescue in Campo, at least the old
Speaker 3: Campo station that was on four Skate Road before they
Speaker 3: changed it all around. We had to go out in
Speaker 3: teams and that's the only time we worked in teams.
Speaker 3: Otherwise we hiked alone is if we were doing a rescue,
Speaker 3: especially in the wintertime because it was even more dangerous,
Speaker 3: and we hiked all night until we found them. So
Speaker 3: us regular agents just on the line would just move
Speaker 3: our positions and keep going, and we didn't necessarily have
Speaker 3: any specific training. We didn't repel a lot of helicopters
Speaker 3: back then and do all that stuff. What I think
Speaker 3: that they started for was because we had a lot
Speaker 3: of attrition in the nineties and it was more about
Speaker 3: getting us regular agents that patrol the border away from
Speaker 3: the border because we were having that's when our massive
Speaker 3: suicide started, because of all the death that we were seeing.
Speaker 3: And I think it was an effort to keep the
Speaker 3: average agent from seeing the brutality of what they were doing,
Speaker 3: quite honestly, and so like I as an agent had
Speaker 3: lots of experience with dead bodies and so forth. But
Speaker 3: agents today who are on the line, they don't. They
Speaker 3: sit in their trucks, they watch the cameras, and then
Speaker 3: when a dire thing comes out that somebody needs to
Speaker 3: be rescued forced our handles handles it. They might go
Speaker 3: do perimeter things and help out a little bit, but
Speaker 3: they're not involved in the actual rescues. You know, in
Speaker 3: my day, I didn't know. I didn't know that many
Speaker 3: agents who had never seen who had never experienced that,
Speaker 3: And I kind of think in a weird way that
Speaker 3: that's what makes today's agents so non caring, so non
Speaker 3: sympathetic to the migrants. We didn't call them invaders. And
Speaker 3: it's not to say that we weren't racist and we're brutal.
Speaker 3: It's just it's gotten even more brutal and more racist
Speaker 3: since since I was an agent, And certainly I would
Speaker 3: say that the brutality that may have happened, that would
Speaker 3: have happened maybe on an individual basis or with certain
Speaker 3: groups of agents. It's now policy throughout the whole agency,
Speaker 3: and you're expected to be that brutal. And if you
Speaker 3: can't be that brutal, then you can't hack it. So
Speaker 3: but the idea that they're all first responders, that just
Speaker 3: means they wear a bat and have a gun and
Speaker 3: have a car with you know, red and blue lives
Speaker 3: on it. But they're not all necessarily trained in like
Speaker 3: the type of rescue that we're talking about in the
Speaker 3: Hopkamba area in the mountains that takes very physically. I
Speaker 3: could do it when I was younger, but obviously I
Speaker 3: can't do it now.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we would have to get our best best agents,
Speaker 3: and especially if we went north at the checkpoint north
Speaker 3: of I eight up into the lagunas we would have
Speaker 3: to get our best fit agents up there to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems like that I don't see them
Speaker 2: as much, certainly, like when there's a search and rescue now,
Speaker 2: just like everything else at the border very often falls
Speaker 2: on volunteers and community groups and people who are willing
Speaker 2: to give their time and take the non legible personal
Speaker 2: risk to rescue people.
Speaker 3: Because a I think we might have rescued more people
Speaker 3: back then even with half the amount of agents, simply
Speaker 3: because when we got the call, we went and we looked.
Speaker 3: And sometimes we meet the friend other rallies right at
Speaker 3: the border and they show us this is a group,
Speaker 3: and so we looked for the sign and then we
Speaker 3: could you know, frog it and get ahead of it.
Speaker 3: Whereas today if you call a bors Star while all
Speaker 3: the Boord store agents have to get their gear on
Speaker 3: and then they have to get the helicopter and fly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean that's even if they're willing. So
Speaker 2: like I know with the group that made a call
Speaker 2: this weekend for a gentleman who was in distress and
Speaker 2: had been suffering very greatly from exposure, and the agent
Speaker 2: in the office said it would be hours maybe days
Speaker 2: before they arrived, right, So like if you can get through,
Speaker 2: if you can get them to come out, like you
Speaker 2: know that this and that that's very common. That's something
Speaker 2: that that that is not unusual at all. This the
Speaker 2: disdain for coming to the disdain for people's lives right
Speaker 2: for coming to rescue them. It is extremely obvious, really,
Speaker 2: and like that's a good It's not someone who has
Speaker 2: to be located. Like I can give you a GPS
Speaker 2: reading down to you know, I think it's twenty figures,
Speaker 2: you know, extremely accurate location.
Speaker 3: It's just oh, yeah, we didn't have that in our day.
Speaker 3: I mean there was GPS, but we didn't have GPS capability.
Speaker 3: I never worked with GPS, so I worked with a
Speaker 3: compass that was pretty much.
Speaker 2: Yet, Yeah, it's yeah, I mean they have they have
Speaker 2: more technology than you know.
Speaker 3: I know, the agents today tell me they can see
Speaker 3: each other in the field. So they have something or
Speaker 3: their GPS system to tracked each other and so they
Speaker 3: can see where each other is. We never had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did to military technology, just like everything else
Speaker 2: that trickle down to the border patrol and sometimes trickles
Speaker 2: from the border patrol down to the military actually with
Speaker 2: a lot of the surveillance technology. Like, I think another
Speaker 2: thing that people might not be aware of, and this
Speaker 2: is something that I think has happened recently but being
Speaker 2: young for several years now, is the deployment of National
Speaker 2: God to the border. I think people know that that
Speaker 2: is happening in Texas, but I think people probably aren't
Speaker 2: aware that there's also a federal mission to the border,
Speaker 2: right that that encompasses much more than Texas. And what
Speaker 2: are they National God, Well, I mean they I know
Speaker 2: they sit outside detention camps in Ukumber shouting at me,
Speaker 2: But what is their mission in theory at the border?
Speaker 2: What are they doing there?
Speaker 3: Well, in theory their mission at the border is now
Speaker 3: they have these giant processing tints you know in San
Speaker 3: Diego and in Cheese on ane of the things. So
Speaker 3: in general, what they're supposed to be doing is not
Speaker 3: actively arresting or apprehending people, because that, according to the law,
Speaker 3: would violate it. What they're supposed to be doing is
Speaker 3: is maybe sitting in a stationary spot operating the scope
Speaker 3: where they can tell border patrol at night, you know
Speaker 3: there's a group over here, da da DA, And then
Speaker 3: the rest of the time, they're mostly supposed to be
Speaker 3: working in the processing centers, assistant people if they need
Speaker 3: to go to medical or if they need this or that,
Speaker 3: and so they're just supposed to help so that the
Speaker 3: agents don't have to sit around and babysit so much,
Speaker 3: so that they can be back in the field. That's
Speaker 3: what they're supposed to be doing. And I mean lots
Speaker 3: of presidents have done it. Barack Obama did it, you know,
Speaker 3: so it's not unusual unusual. What is unusual is that
Speaker 3: in Texas you have Texas DPS and the military Texas
Speaker 3: National Guard actually pretending like they are border patrol agents
Speaker 3: and running around and apprehending people even though they do
Speaker 3: not have that legal authority. The US government has not
Speaker 3: given it to them. And then the other thing I
Speaker 3: think which is legally the most dangerous is where they
Speaker 3: push the migrants back into the water. Number One, The
Speaker 3: law is that if you set foot on US soil,
Speaker 3: then you're entitled to an immigration hearing if you so choo,
Speaker 3: and you cannot turn somebody back. Agent cannot legally turn
Speaker 3: somebody back once they've crossed, So once they're across that
Speaker 3: middle part of the river, they're in the United States
Speaker 3: and they're your problem now. So you have to deal
Speaker 3: with that, and you have to process them. You have
Speaker 3: to figure out who they are. You have to friend
Speaker 3: and records checks and all this other stuff. It'd be interesting.
Speaker 3: You know, the Biden administration has it pressed abbot on this,
Speaker 3: and I've always wondered, why are they allowing him to
Speaker 3: do this and take over immigration as a state authority. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think they just don't want to fight it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't want to be attacked on like this,
Speaker 2: like this idea that Biden's like, there's this myth of
Speaker 2: Biden's opens borders, which is actually ridiculous and be like,
Speaker 2: as Erica reminded us last week, like we all as
Speaker 2: US passport holders, have open borders to us all over
Speaker 2: the world. It's very problematic. We think other people shouldn't.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think the idea of looking weak or like,
Speaker 2: you know, he wants to but dressed himself against an
Speaker 2: attack from the right.
Speaker 3: The same reason why he won't get rid of the
Speaker 3: Border Patrol Union, because you know the Border Patrol Union.
Speaker 3: Now that Donald Trump before he left diet he gave
Speaker 3: them what's called security designation, So are they are a
Speaker 3: security organization now, which means they're like the FBI, they're
Speaker 3: like the DA and all this other stuff, and so
Speaker 3: they can't have a bargaining unit. So the Border Patrol
Speaker 3: Union is actually illegal under five USC. Seven one one
Speaker 3: two lit'll b Little sixth. But Biden is week and
Speaker 3: he doesn't want to look like he hates unions. He
Speaker 3: always wants to look like he's strong on unions because
Speaker 3: he's a union politician, and he refuses to get rid
Speaker 3: of him. But the fear and the reason why that
Speaker 3: law exists is exactly what we see them doing now,
Speaker 3: where the union representatives who are border patrol agents, they
Speaker 3: have national security information and they're actively working against this
Speaker 3: current administration. So that's why we have it. But he's
Speaker 3: just weak and he won't do anything about.
Speaker 2: It, right and it certainly I think whoever wins next time,
Speaker 2: they're not going to do anything about it now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think either way. You like also pattention to the
Speaker 2: VP union and I think it's one of the worst
Speaker 2: accounts on Twitter dot com. But I also like, I'm
Speaker 2: in the event of a Republican victory, which at the
Speaker 2: moment it's looking like Trump might be then nominee. Right,
Speaker 2: certainly it seems for support for Trump. Kind of these
Speaker 2: people seem to have his ear on immigration and they
Speaker 2: seem to want the same things, right, So I'm wondering
Speaker 2: Biden has been bad. His border policy has been objectively bad,
Speaker 2: and it's very hard for me not to see it
Speaker 2: as racist. Like it's very hard for me not to
Speaker 2: see his immigrate policy is specifically favoring white people and
Speaker 2: specifically disadvantaging black people. And I don't think I could
Speaker 2: be persuaded that's not the case. What do you think,
Speaker 2: Like it seems that immigration policy only moves one way
Speaker 2: and it just gets worse and worse, and border policy
Speaker 2: does the same. What are they like demanding and what
Speaker 2: do you think is sort of at stake in the
Speaker 2: upcoming election this year's election regarding the border.
Speaker 3: So I was paying attention to what Speaker Johnson was
Speaker 3: saying before we logged on to talk, and he was
Speaker 3: saying that there was going to be no deal for
Speaker 3: the border unless Donald Trump was the one doing the deal.
Speaker 3: So he doesn't want to even fund the border patrol
Speaker 3: right now. So I mean, my impression of what the
Speaker 3: border patrol and what the union is trying to do
Speaker 3: at this moment is that they are trying to make
Speaker 3: the border as chaotic as absolutely possible, and that is
Speaker 3: their goal. They want bodies, black and brown bodies coming
Speaker 3: over that fence, and they want the optics of it.
Speaker 3: That's what I think is going on, and that's why
Speaker 3: I think that they're picking specific cities to have a
Speaker 3: lot of the migrants come through. I think that that's
Speaker 3: the reason why they have like specific cities, because you
Speaker 3: saw like a couple of weeks together, they're like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, the border's being overrun, and oh my god,
Speaker 3: what are we going to do? And this and that,
Speaker 3: and then you realize it's just like three or four suctors,
Speaker 3: and even within those sectors, it's just one or two areas.
Speaker 3: It's not the entire border. Is it problematic? Is it chaotic?
Speaker 3: Is it a human rights disaster for the minors? Yes?
Speaker 3: Is it that for the Border Patrol? No? I think
Speaker 3: the Border Patrol is adding to it. And in fact,
Speaker 3: when I do the numbers and you compare like the
Speaker 3: staff that we have back when I was an agent
Speaker 3: and the staff that they have today, they're not even
Speaker 3: apprehending half the amount that each agent apprehended when we
Speaker 3: were in the patrol back in the day, and so
Speaker 3: you know, for them to apprehend the group. Now, when
Speaker 3: I see them apprehend a group of life, even ten people,
Speaker 3: twelve people, they will take five agents to apprehend twelve people.
Speaker 3: I have apprehended one hundred people by myself, and that's
Speaker 3: not safe. I shouldn't suggest that people do that, but
Speaker 3: I have apprehended. It is normal for a border patrol
Speaker 3: agent to apprehend twenty to thirty people by themselves, including
Speaker 3: a female agent who's at the time was super skinny
Speaker 3: and super small. And the reason why is because the
Speaker 3: vast majority of migrants aren't criminals and they're not trying
Speaker 3: to hurt you. So that's why a single agent can
Speaker 3: apprehend so many people. But today they use like six
Speaker 3: or seven agents to apprehend groups, and so I'm not
Speaker 3: sure why they're overwhelmed. Quite frankly, they should be able
Speaker 3: to handle three hundred, four hundred thousand people a month
Speaker 3: in the border patrol if they have to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, even though a world without the border patrol
Speaker 2: would be better, in a world without this bloated and
Speaker 2: violent and overfunded and really terribly just just a mess
Speaker 2: of quality and violence that we have now would be
Speaker 2: a lot better, but things could get a lot worse
Speaker 2: for those people, like even the time it takes for
Speaker 2: them to be processed, and that the time it takes
Speaker 2: for them to have their hearing. Immigration law could change
Speaker 2: for the worse very quickly if either person wins presidency.
Speaker 2: And indeed, like it seems that Biden has floated like
Speaker 2: a return to a title forty two as a compromise
Speaker 2: to get funding for Ukraine. So like, yeah, this inefficiency
Speaker 2: doesn't just like even when people are apprehended, their failure to
Speaker 2: do their jobs hurts people right like it puts them
Speaker 2: at greater risk.
Speaker 3: It does. And I mean a lot of the things
Speaker 3: that the border Patrol has done has created and made
Speaker 3: these things worse. A lot of the areas out near Sasabe,
Speaker 3: a lot of people never even crossed until Trump put
Speaker 3: that wall out there because they didn't have road access
Speaker 3: to a lot of that area. And if you did
Speaker 3: have road access, you had to have a very serious
Speaker 3: four by four to get out there. You can't do
Speaker 3: it in a regular car, and you can't do it
Speaker 3: in a kind of city type of four by four.
Speaker 3: You need a serious four by four to get it
Speaker 3: into some of those areas, and then just our policies
Speaker 3: are deterrence policies. You know, when I was an agent
Speaker 3: in the nineties, it costs you know, probably somebody from
Speaker 3: Central America costs about eighteen hundred dollars to get here.
Speaker 3: Now it's ten thousand or more dollars. So we've made
Speaker 3: it profitable for people to smuggle people in and cross
Speaker 3: them illegally. Illegally, We've created this entire situation ourselves. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't have any doubt that other countries that maybe
Speaker 3: don't like as you know, all the migrants coming across,
Speaker 3: the destabilization that will cause. With people who are racist
Speaker 3: or who don't know anything about the border, they all
Speaker 3: see that as a bonus. But the fact of the
Speaker 3: matter is is that people who are crossing they still
Speaker 3: need asylum, They still have serious needs. Just because you know,
Speaker 3: I've seen some people floating around that people are pushing
Speaker 3: migrants across our southern border to destabilize US. I don't
Speaker 3: know if that's necessarily true. We don't have any proof
Speaker 3: of that. But even if they are, isn't the better
Speaker 3: attitude to have because asylum is legal, isn't the better
Speaker 3: attitude to have, well, how can we better, you know,
Speaker 3: help these people and not let this destabilize who we
Speaker 3: are and make them part of our communities and so forth.
Speaker 3: I think that's a better choice than sending them out
Speaker 3: to the desert or to drown in the rivers. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think it bears. I mean, people listening
Speaker 2: to this will probably be in agreement that, yeah, these
Speaker 2: people should be treated to particulanty and respect regardless. And
Speaker 2: I generally don't buy that they're being shipped on mass
Speaker 2: to destabilize this country. But I think even if you
Speaker 2: don't care about their rights, every single advance advance is
Speaker 2: around word, right, but increase in surveillance, every single increase
Speaker 2: in state violence, every single incursion into individual rights starts
Speaker 2: at the border, but it doesn't stop there, right, Like,
Speaker 2: if you've protested in twenty twenty, you were surveilled by
Speaker 2: technology that came from the border. You were sometimes targeting
Speaker 2: by Leslie for weapons that were first issued to border patrol,
Speaker 2: Like you're the intelligence that police now gather began with
Speaker 2: border patrol. Like so much of the even the stuff
Speaker 2: that we see used at the border today, or the
Speaker 2: stuff that we see using surveillance today overwhelmingly comes from
Speaker 2: either border patrol or the Israel that as a border.
Speaker 2: And also most of these things are the same companies, right,
Speaker 2: Companies that do one also do the other. And so like,
Speaker 2: I guess if people are talking to people who don't
Speaker 2: seem to care about the rights of migrants, which is
Speaker 2: a worryingly large amount of our society, like this will
Speaker 2: come and bite someone else in it, like to include
Speaker 2: the people who decided to storm the Capitol on January sixth,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Right, Like, lots of the efficient technology
Speaker 2: that bit them in the ass came from the border
Speaker 2: and the people they hated.
Speaker 3: And that's absolutely true. And I mean, you know it's
Speaker 3: the Border Patrol says this, but they mean it in
Speaker 3: a different way. They say, what happens at the border
Speaker 3: doesn't stay at the border, and they mean that because
Speaker 3: they try and portray migrants as all criminals. So they're
Speaker 3: trying to tell people, oh, see, these criminals are going
Speaker 3: to come to Iowa or Illinois. So that but I say,
Speaker 3: in the fact that the surveillance has come in to
Speaker 3: you because you know, I mean, you know, in San
Speaker 3: Diego we got street lamps out here that can listen
Speaker 3: to US and video US YEP and track wherever we're
Speaker 3: going down the street, from lock to block. And it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3: You can't even walk your dog without being surveilled around here.
Speaker 3: And yet we're far from them, twenty miles from the border,
Speaker 3: north of the border, and it's still surveilled around here.
Speaker 3: And so all of that surveillance, yes, that's being used
Speaker 3: on American citizens. And when you go to places like McAllen,
Speaker 3: so the Rio Grande Valley sector right now, it's really slow.
Speaker 3: They're getting about a little over one thousand, maybe two
Speaker 3: thousand apprehensions a week, which is really slow from the
Speaker 3: prize of the sector. And they're like, you know, they
Speaker 3: have so much surveillance, Like you can see there's a tower,
Speaker 3: there's a tower. There's a tower there, and it is
Speaker 3: all this Israeli technology and they can listen to cell
Speaker 3: phones and that usually needs a warrant. But apparently down
Speaker 3: here on the border, and I've had current border patrol
Speaker 3: agents tell me the Fourth Amendment doesn't exist down here.
Speaker 3: It's like, what is that one? The teaching here in
Speaker 3: the academy now doesn't exist down here, And apparently that's
Speaker 3: what border patrol agents think, and they think they have
Speaker 3: I do anybody that they see, and all this other stuff,
Speaker 3: and it just it's it's interesting how much this is spreading,
Speaker 3: how much the checkpoints are spreading. And you know, like
Speaker 3: in Minding, we didn't do invasive searches if it wasn't obvious,
Speaker 3: we didn't stop them. And nowadays they'll do on full
Speaker 3: body cavvy searches at a checkpoint and I'm like, what
Speaker 3: I heard that, And so all this stuff is just
Speaker 3: gonna it's just getting further and further into the anterior
Speaker 3: of the United States, like we saw on the trip nustrition,
Speaker 3: Like you said, yeah, it's going to be brought back
Speaker 3: out for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I wonder, like how do we I mean,
Speaker 2: it does seem very bleak, like I which is why
Speaker 2: I like to devote so much of my time to
Speaker 2: like mutual aid work on the border, because it's a
Speaker 2: meaningful way to help, But how do we move the
Speaker 2: needle to a more humane place? Like this is one
Speaker 2: of the places where like I think, like we should
Speaker 2: do whatever we can to make this like even if
Speaker 2: it's something that would normally be this tasteful to us,
Speaker 2: but like yeah, what is it that we can do
Speaker 2: to either like maybe change people's minds, Like I'm sure
Speaker 2: you yourself have changed your mind on what we need
Speaker 2: to do on the border and to because the conversation
Speaker 2: around the border is not only toxic, but it's also
Speaker 2: so deeply rooted in ignorance and lack of understanding, and like,
Speaker 2: I don't think we were talking about this before we
Speaker 2: started back. Like I encountered a three year old girl
Speaker 2: the other day who was extremely cold. She had her
Speaker 2: feet have been wet and cold for hours days and
Speaker 2: she was the cold beyond shivering, and we were trying
Speaker 2: to warm her up, and it was very disstressing. I
Speaker 2: don't think many people have seen that, And I don't
Speaker 2: think even you're like sort of hardest border biggert Facebook
Speaker 2: uncles would want to look that in the face and
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, that's what we should do. Damn, I'm
Speaker 2: really proud of this country. So how do we move
Speaker 2: this to a better place? Do you think?
Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest mistakes that the Biden
Speaker 3: administration did was that they didn't, you know, in the beginning,
Speaker 3: they hired a lot of really really good people, like
Speaker 3: I think Andrea Flores was one of the administration people,
Speaker 3: and she knows her stuff, and I think that they
Speaker 3: had this idea from what she had said that the
Speaker 3: people that support immigration and immigrant rights and this, and
Speaker 3: that she was saying that they were viewed as soft
Speaker 3: hearted individuals on immigration and they were too soft and
Speaker 3: they didn't understand border security. One of the things that
Speaker 3: Biden should have done was start educating Americans about why
Speaker 3: the asylum system is so important and what the benefits
Speaker 3: are that it brings to us. And they have never
Speaker 3: done that PSAs about it. There's nothing and I don't
Speaker 3: know if NGO's do it on that large environment on
Speaker 3: cable news or whatever, because they don't really watch mainstream
Speaker 3: news and stuff. But Americans have just astonished it. Like
Speaker 3: when I started doing the TikTok videos and explaining, you know,
Speaker 3: border patroling, the people in green cbps and blues people
Speaker 3: didn't know just the basic things. The majority of Americans
Speaker 3: who feel that they have a very a very specific
Speaker 3: view on immigration, whether they hate it or they love it,
Speaker 3: they don't know much about immigration. They don't know how
Speaker 3: it works. They literally think people just get off their
Speaker 3: couch and go, let's just go to America and they
Speaker 3: just hop over the fence and they all have money
Speaker 3: and they're all getting free stuff and this and that.
Speaker 3: So this administration, the government has done nothing to explain
Speaker 3: what is happening and why it happens. And I always
Speaker 3: say that the system is essential to national security. What
Speaker 3: we saw in the Biden administration when he first opened
Speaker 3: up the ports of entry to allow specifically Haitians to
Speaker 3: apply at the ports of entry, we saw the amount
Speaker 3: of Haitians go from the crossing in between the ports
Speaker 3: it regularly. We saw it going from you know, thousands
Speaker 3: down to like one hundred and something. So the idea
Speaker 3: is that you have to have a robust and humane
Speaker 3: asylum system where you're processing people where they don't have
Speaker 3: to wait so long that they're going to give up
Speaker 3: across it regularly. Because the vast majority of people who
Speaker 3: believe that they have a legitimate asylum claim. And I
Speaker 3: do think that what constitutes the asylum needs to be
Speaker 3: revisited because it's outdated, especially now that we have client
Speaker 3: and change. But is that you want those people to
Speaker 3: come and be inspected. We want people to come and
Speaker 3: stand outside the port of entry and wait and be
Speaker 3: inspected by CBP. If we're going to have a border
Speaker 3: and we're going to have all this, we would want
Speaker 3: that so that then we could say, Okay, we've checked them.
Speaker 3: They appear to be okay. They're going to this place.
Speaker 3: Now they have an immigration hearing before a judge. We're
Speaker 3: going to make sure that they get the system and
Speaker 3: you know, and then see it more as a system
Speaker 3: that's a benefit to us, instead of creating enemies, which
Speaker 3: is what we're doing now. Every time a migrant turns around,
Speaker 3: even if they do are able to get into the
Speaker 3: United States the quote unquote legal way at a port
Speaker 3: of entry, they're still met with you can't work for
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty days, and then you can't do this,
Speaker 3: and you can't do that, and you have to show up.
Speaker 3: And so we're constant. Everything is punishment. Everything is punitive
Speaker 3: in our immigration system, and we can't do that. We
Speaker 3: want these people to become citizens. We want these people
Speaker 3: to become part of our our society. We need it,
Speaker 3: and so we have to We have to have somebody
Speaker 3: bold enough to explain this to the American people. If
Speaker 3: you close the asylum system, everybody's going to cross regularly
Speaker 3: just like they did in title forty two, and you're
Speaker 3: going to get tons and tons of bodies coming across
Speaker 3: the wall. We need to be bold enough to say
Speaker 3: we want a humane and robust asylum system where families
Speaker 3: can wait together and be processed. And then, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean the decision between should we fund detention centers
Speaker 3: and home people who are crossing just waiting for their
Speaker 3: immigration hearing in detention, or should we fund you know,
Speaker 3: humane services like Let's get you into whatever city you're
Speaker 3: going to. Let's help you find a school for your kids,
Speaker 3: Let's help you learn English, let's help you find a job.
Speaker 3: Let's help you and you can hire and pay people
Speaker 3: to do that instead of putting people into attention. It
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be a punitive system. We've just made
Speaker 3: it that way because the people on the for profit
Speaker 3: prisons before Trump was supposedly elected, they were lobbying Jeff
Speaker 3: Sessions and Steven Miller when he was working for Jeff
Speaker 3: Sessions and so G Group and all them. They're the
Speaker 3: ones that decided this is how we're going to go.
Speaker 3: And the fact of the matter is is, I know,
Speaker 3: I think we're on a disagreement with open border versus
Speaker 3: you know, or having border patrol at all. But I
Speaker 3: always say an open border is just as dangerous as
Speaker 3: a closed border. And when when you close off the
Speaker 3: asylum system, that forces everybody to then cross in between
Speaker 3: the ports of entry, and that is what does overwhelm
Speaker 3: border patrol. So if you don't want to overwhelm your
Speaker 3: border patrol, then you have to pull them back and
Speaker 3: you have to start processing people like they're supposed to
Speaker 3: be processed at the court of entry. The other thing
Speaker 3: people forget about is we've had four years, literally four
Speaker 3: years of the asylum system being shut down because of
Speaker 3: MPP and Title forty two. Those are current policies. It
Speaker 3: took by no while to get through all those. But
Speaker 3: what do you think all those people that were sitting
Speaker 3: around for four years are doing. They're waiting, they're turning
Speaker 3: to get over there. So we have a backlog not
Speaker 3: just the people in the United States waiting for the immigration,
Speaker 3: we have a backlog of people in Mexico waiting to
Speaker 3: come across. So they created this whole thing themselves. I
Speaker 3: find it very interesting the depress never mentions that basically
Speaker 3: what TRUP did was close the whole immigration system down.
Speaker 3: And kicked the can down the broad Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean consciously or unconsciously. It's like shaking up
Speaker 2: a can of beer and then someone's going to take
Speaker 2: a little off at some point, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: going to blow out. Oh yeah, and it's been willing
Speaker 2: to and so it's still going to get kicked down
Speaker 2: the road. I mean, people have come in since the
Speaker 2: end of title forty two, but as you say, there's
Speaker 2: a huge backlog, and people aren't, as you say, going
Speaker 2: to stop coming, right because like it's dangerous getting here.
Speaker 2: I've walked those trails. They're not easy, and they're certainly
Speaker 2: not easy when you're carrying your kid and it's raining
Speaker 2: and it's dark, but it's I've also been in Syria,
Speaker 2: in Iraq and in other places where these people are
Speaker 2: coming from, and I understand why they're doing it, and
Speaker 2: I would do it too if I had a family
Speaker 2: and I wanted to escape that. So I think we're
Speaker 2: laughing if we think that we're going to I mean,
Speaker 2: we've tried to make our border as unpleasant as those places,
Speaker 2: and it's deadly as those places, right, and fortunately we failed,
Speaker 2: And so that doesn't mean people will stop coming whatever.
Speaker 3: We do. We've had thirty years of walls and border patrols,
Speaker 3: concept of deterrence policies that they claim will prevent people
Speaker 3: from crossing irregularly or illegally, and they've all failed. And
Speaker 3: I think it's time to try something new. I think
Speaker 3: it's time to stop listening to the people who get
Speaker 3: all the money and get all the guns and get
Speaker 3: all the militarizations, saying it has to be this way.
Speaker 3: It does not have to be that way. And I
Speaker 3: think it's very important to point out that we live
Speaker 3: in the United States of America. Even though we have
Speaker 3: a lot of problems and we're possibly losing our democracy
Speaker 3: in our country right now, it is still far better
Speaker 3: than the places that these people are coming from, and
Speaker 3: we should be thankful for that and just figure out
Speaker 3: a way to protect ourselves as first as we can,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think I think that's Yeah, it's a
Speaker 2: good place to end. Like, we should be grateful that
Speaker 2: for now we live in a much more stable place
Speaker 2: and that we were able to we have the resources
Speaker 2: to welcome people, and we do the benefit to our
Speaker 2: communities when we.
Speaker 3: Have from us. Yeah, we need people right now.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, people forever bitching about not being able to
Speaker 2: find people to work and also at the same time
Speaker 2: toning away people who would love. You know, every migrant
Speaker 2: I meet in the cumber message me on WhatsApps saying, Hey,
Speaker 2: struggling to find work because they don't get work authorization. Right,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of jobs that you're doing, and
Speaker 2: a lot of people who want to do them, and
Speaker 2: but we're so wrapped up in our bigger trendenophobia that
Speaker 2: we won't let them do it right.
Speaker 3: We've made it as difficult for them as we absolutely
Speaker 3: positively can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jen, thank you for joining us. Is there any
Speaker 2: way that people can like follow you online? You've done
Speaker 2: a really good job at sort of cracking some of
Speaker 2: the board patrols nonsense recently. So where can people find that?
Speaker 3: They can find it on jin the j E N
Speaker 3: N Budd dot com.
Speaker 2: Great, that's here, It's a good resource. And well, thank
Speaker 2: you so much.
Speaker 3: Jen.
Speaker 2: We really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you to thank you.
Speaker 2: Jeerz Mite.
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