WEBVTT - Texas Is At It Again 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.000 Al Zone Media. 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.760 Hi everyone, and welcome to it Could Happen Here podcast 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.720 about how things are falling apart and people trying to 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.600 put them back together. Today, more in the how things 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.480 are Falling apart category, we are talking about the border 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.040 again and I'm joined by Gen Pud who you've heard 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.240 from before, but just a reminder, Jen is a former 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.160 senior patrol agent with the Border Patrol and now an 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:26.360 immigrant rights activist. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.600 Welcome to the Showjo, Thanks for having me again. 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.160 Yeah, you're welcome. So we're gathered here today, I guess 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:40.040 to talk about this ridiculous spectacle of the Texas National 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:46.159 Guard occupying some border adjacent land. The border, as I said, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.320 right down the middle of the river there. So they're 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.120 not actually occupying that the physical border, right, they're occupying 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.400 that the nearest land spot to it is that right, correct? 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.720 The border in that area is in the middle of 0:00:57.760 --> 0:00:58.200 the river. 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:04.200 Yeah, and preventing Border patrol from accessing the river. And 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.800 I think, like we were just talking before we recorded, 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.399 but the reporting on this has been a bit kind 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.600 of slap shot. A lot of it have just been 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.240 social media posting. So I was hoping that you could 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.000 help us understand like a This isn't like like a 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:22.960 standoff between Texas and the Border patrol, right, but it's 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.560 not like Texas kind of swept in and suddenly they 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.360 were there and they weren't there before it. Border patrol 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.200 had to allow this to happen. To agree, is that 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:32.800 fair to say? 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.400 I think it's fair to say. I mean, at the moment, 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.640 I think the administration is trying to portray that, you know, 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.800 the Border Patrol tried to come out there and rescue. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.040 I think the latest I've heard is that reportedly there 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.480 were six people in the river that were surrounding and 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:57.840 they went to go rescue them, and the Texas military, 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:02.440 the I guess Texas now Guard ended up blocking them 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.200 and saying they can't go. Now, this park is a 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.640 very well known park that during the Trump administration they 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:10.560 were trying to build a wall. They've been wanting a 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.680 wall there, but the people in that city, I believe 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.080 it's equal pass is that they, you know, they don't 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.960 want a wall there. That's the city park and they 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.440 just don't want a wall right there. And so Greg 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:30.760 Abbott has sent in Texas National Guard to put up 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.880 all the razor wire, all the you know, plotation devices 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.440 with she would call it a saw blade on the 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.920 middle of it that they claim saves lives. All this 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:47.880 stuff apparently is rescue technique stuff, and they claim it 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:52.520 it saves more lives than it hurts. And so the 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.280 people that put out this stuff to injure people or 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.120 claiming that they didn't allow people to drown. So I 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.880 find that hard to But at the same time, the 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.880 Border Patrol is the Border Patrol is always silent, you know, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.960 they're always silent about this. They let CBP talk to 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.839 talk for them. They'll let the administration talk for them. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.600 The Union is claiming that Greg Abbott is the best 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.799 thing in the world. They think it's great that he 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:24.120 stopped their own agents from rescuing a woman and two children. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.200 So apparently three of the people got back to shore 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.440 on the Mexican side, and then the woman and two 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.160 children ended up drowning and their bodies were found on 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.560 the Mexican side. Texas military is claiming that when they 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.920 were notified that people were in the river, they went 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.160 and they shined lights and they looked, but they didn't 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:48.000 see anything. We did have the I don't know if 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.040 it was Texas Military, it was in the area of 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.600 the state of Texas on the same Rio or Grande, 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.560 where some either National Guard or Texas National Guard or 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.400 military or somebody just was sitting in a boat in 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.320 front of a woman with a child and she was 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.120 starting to sink into the sand because it's like quicksand 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:12.400 over there, and they wouldn't rescue her, and Border patrol 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.200 drove by really fast and put away, So it's not 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.440 surprising that they wouldn't go rescue them. This is the 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.839 first time that they publicly said that they've had a 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.880 confrontation with a border patrol. But I don't think the 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.840 Border Patrol tried very hard to rescue them. I mean 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:28.200 they do have boats and stuff. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:35.400 Yeah they have yeah, yeah, they're there are many way helicopters. Yeah, 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.280 they have lots of equipment to rescue people sometimes just 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.159 let's desire, shall we say? 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.120 Yeah, And I mean it's to me the interesting thing 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:53.480 is watching Democratic politicians point their fingers at Greg Abbott, 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.640 and rightly so for this, for this scene. But yet 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.200 at the same time, what the Border Patrol does every day, 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.120 Their deterns policies every day, kill people every day, So 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.680 the Border Patrol is not doing anything different so to 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.440 act like, oh my god, we didn't get out to 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.280 save these migrants and we really wanted to is kind 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.000 of like, well, I mean, people die probably every hour 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.200 crossing that river and you haven't cured before, and we've 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.640 been doing it since nineteen ninety four. So it's kind 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:23.599 of it's kind of hard to get really upset at 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.360 Greg Abbott, who's doing nothing but what the National Border 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:32.680 Patrol has done for you know, thirty something years. And 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.159 at the same time, the victims are always the migrants 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.320 that you know, That's what we should be upset about, 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.240 is that our policies, whether federal or state, are killing 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.240 people who are seeking asylum and seeking safety. That's what 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:45.680 it is. 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.000 Yeah, exactly. I think like this attempt to make it 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.839 like Republican governor is killing migrants thing is an attempt 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.920 to like distract us from the fact that democratic president 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.800 is killing migrants in much greater numbers by virtue of 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:05.440 the amount of land covered by you know, Biden's jurisdiction 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.600 compared to Abbots. But yeah, I think it's very hypocritical. 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:12.880 And it's it's funny to you in that or I'm 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.440 not funny but ironic, and that the Border Patrolley Union 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.839 is putting out the numbers of when Trump's last year 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.720 as president of death on the southern border, and these 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.279 are just the ones that they find, not yeah, the 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.120 actual number, which is usually three to four times as many. 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.359 And then they're saying, oh, look, in Biden's year, this 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.599 has been twenty twenty three was the most deadly year. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.359 But it's like, you know, you guys never cared about 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.880 how many people were dying before, and now sudden you're like, 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.200 you're killing more minents than anybody else. Are you jealous? 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:46.000 What's the deal? 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.520 Yeah, like the idea that these people are consend that 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.720 they're like in Cumba, they keep people in open air 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.279 attention for up to a week and in the freezing cold, 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.679 you know, in San Diego Santasedro people are two people 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.720 have died. In Santa Cedro person has died. In the 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.480 number probably dozens more people have died crossing in other 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.559 routes that we haven't seen this year. It's it's been 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.240 not as wet as previous winters. But just in my 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.239 just in this week, I've seen people in extremely dire 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.640 medical distress, and I've seen border patrol scream at those 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:21.640 people and scream that people trying to help those people 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.160 and not do anything to help. So I'm finding it 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.640 hard to buy that this is all Greg greg Abbott's fault, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.440 not that Greg Abbott is't a piece of shit. Yeah, 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.840 I think we're in agreement on that, but like, yeah, 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.680 the the attempt to lay all the blame at Greg 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.040 abbts feet and suggests that there isn't complete bipartisan agreement 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.680 it seems on killing migrants even like we don't see 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.480 in the Trump era, we saw you know, AOC turn 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.120 up and cry at the you know, unaccompanyed children or 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.880 the other separation of family separation attention, and we don't 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.960 even see that anymore, Like we don't have any ear 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.080 of that, and that's refected in the press. Right, we 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.600 don't see anywhere near as much coverage of the brutality 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.720 at the border as we used to. One thing that 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:08.760 you've mentioned before we started with that you had there's 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:13.160 some like there's pretty clear case law or Supreme Court 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.440 decisions at least about like what BP could have done 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.160 or what their rights are visa VI the National Guard, 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.080 could you explain some of fat well. 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:27.040 As clear immigration precedent, So in eighteen seventy five. So 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.440 prior to the Civil War a little bit after the 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.480 Civil War, states had always done their own immigration. So 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.280 if you showed up in a boat on New Orleans 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.560 in New Orleans Harbor, they would have their own immigration. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.000 You would have to pay a lot of times. In 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:47.920 the California area, California was charging, especially Chinese migrants who 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.360 were coming over for the railroad and the gold rush 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.360 and things like that. When they brought groups of Chinese 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.760 women over, then California would label the ball as prostitutes 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.920 and no good people, and then they would put them 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.680 in jail and then find the captain of the ship 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.600 like five hundred dollars a person, which is by today's 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.640 standards it's like over fourteen thousand dollars, such a lot 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.559 of money. Yeah, yeah. And so one of the one 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.079 of the female migrants in eighteen seventy five, so that 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.680 you had no right to hold us in jail. You 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.320 don't have this right. There's nothing that says that you 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.960 have this right according to US law back then. And 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:37.480 so the case is called Chai Cchy Lung Lung versus Freemen. 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:42.360 And in eighteen seventy five the Supreme Court decision was 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:47.440 that immigration is solely the federal government's right to enforce 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:52.679 and not the States, simply because of diplomatic relations. Also 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.960 that we have treaties with other countries, and we have 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:59.680 relationships with other countries, and they believe that while allowing 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.480 state to do their own immigration would then hurt the 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:07.120 United States in diplomacy with these other countries. And then 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.559 the other thing that they mentioned was that there have 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:14.160 been no due process given to the migrants during the time, 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.679 and that's sufforded to migrants, whether they're undocumented or not 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:23.000 based on the Constitution. And then recently in two thousand. 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.320 The most recent time that was brought up was in 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:29.480 twenty twelve when Arizona sued the United States. The Supreme 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.200 Court upheld in that case that law enforcement can question 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.840 citizenship during a legal stop, but denied other parts of 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:43.199 the Arizona law SB. Ten seventy, which allowed their peace 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.880 officers to act like immigration officers. And they said, the 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.120 reason why they can't do that, which is what greg 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.640 Abbott is doing. The reason why Supreme Court said they 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.080 can't do that in twenty twelve was because of Article 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.280 six Clause two, which states that the Constitution federal laws. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:04.440 Treaties made under federal authority take priority over state laws. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.600 So it's, you know, the supremacy clause. Basically, it's what 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.960 it is. And so it's kind of like what Trump 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.400 did when he was in office, where he starts separating children, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.760 and he starts putting everybody he crosses the border, whether 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:24.920 it's for asylum or for nefarious reasons. In between the poorts, 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.040 he we'd take away their children. And I mean, that 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.240 was in violation of the nineteen eighty Refugee Act, and 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.400 yet nobody really fought it on that basis. I'm not 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.400 sure why they didn't find it on that basis. I'm 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.760 not an attorney, so I can't tell you, but at 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.440 least you know this this decision Chai Lung versus Freeman, 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.080 It's been around since eighteen seventy five and was brought 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.280 up in twenty twelve, and the Supreme Court awesome used 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.080 Chai Lung to make its argument of why Arizona couldn't 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.320 have certain parts of SB ten seventy out. So what 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.440 Greg Abbott is doing is the same thing Trump is doing. 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.000 Is like, I will break the law, and you can 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.360 take me to court and we'll see if this court 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.760 agrees with what the last court said. So they're just 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.199 breaking the law and then enduring people to take them 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.120 to court is simply what they're doing. In in the 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.280 middle of this, obviously the migrants are caught, the humanitarian 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.360 organizations and everybody's caught. It causes chaos, basically, is what 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:20.880 it's doing. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.720 Yeah, it's causing an absolute mess at the border. And 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.480 I think understandably what you hear from migrants is like 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:35.200 the people who are better informed, who have access to information, resources, finances, 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:37.800 are telling me that they don't want to go to Texas, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.559 right because right, it's a mess, and it's a mess 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.920 that kills people. And that's exactly what it's supposed to be. 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.479 It's supposed to be uncertain, and it's supposed to be cruel. 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.160 And so people who have the chance to you will 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.160 come here. People who can't afford to right that they're 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:58.640 coming north directly and it sort of takes us is there, 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:01.800 you know, if they head directly north, but that that's 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.120 where they end up. Taxas has a huge amount of border, 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.160 of course, then they're the people who tend to be 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.040 the ones who are forced across there. And unfortunately that's 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.440 realotten a much higher, as you said, at my higher 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.520 death rate, right, Nick, it's do you have a sense 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.840 of like I suppose it will be hard to tell 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.080 because we have very little and were proper statistics, but like, 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.480 what is the most fatal kind of part of the border. 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:33.560 It's difficult to tell if it's the Sonoran Desert or 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.360 if it's the Rio Grande River. And I say that 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.439 because we don't see half the bodies, or we probably 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.679 don't see ninety percent of the bodies. 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.800 Yeah, I know a lot of port deaths are on 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.640 the t Reservation to Ho Reservation. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:54.079 In there's the bombing very goldwater bombing area that nobody's 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.640 allowed in, but when they are occasionally allowed in, they 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:01.080 find like groups of thirteen fifteen skeletons and stuff like that. 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.720 So I think it's a toss that between the Sonoran 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.840 Desert and the Rio Grande River. The other problem with 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:14.040 Texas's border is that primarily the majority of the property 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.280 on the border in Texas is private property, and they 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.080 tend to be very large ranches which may be no 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.640 ranch hand or anybody goes out, you know, through the 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.680 acres to see this and they might never ever find 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:29.920 the bodies. It's kind of like the Sonoran desert and 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.040 the Po nation and then the bombing range, and then 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.440 just the fact that the desert will just destroy the 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.400 bones pretty quickly, especially once the winds cover thinks up 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.680 that we have a fair amountain Campo, as you know, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.240 in the Hakamba Campo Wilderness area and the mountains and 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.960 the Laguna Mountains. But I don't think it's near as 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.040 bad because you can look at those mountains and see 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.680 how bad they are, and most people don't want to 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.680 dare across those mountains, but many still do. Obviously I 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.600 worked out there, You're familiar with that area, and so 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.640 we have more than our fair share for certain. Yeah, 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.280 but I would say I would say probably it's between 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.960 Texas the Rio Grande and then the Sonora doesn't for. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.760 Sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, I think I think that makes sense. 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.760 It's probably a good time for us to break the 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.840 border is getting people. If these adverts probably aren't that, 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.800 they're still not great. So you enjoy these products and services. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.400 All right, we are back, and Jen, I wanted to ask, like, 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.000 with regard to these I think there's a couple of 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.320 things that people might not be clear w on. We 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.040 tried to explain them on the podcast before the first 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.640 is like Border Patrol will always say that all the 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.400 BP agents are first responders, right, It's this line that 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:03.360 they have, And like do they like in terms of rescues, 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.680 are they sort of like technically obliged to make rescues. 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.960 I mean, I've seen people in very great stress and 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.360 I've seen Border Patrol do nothing more times than I 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.440 can count. So like I'm wondering, like is there some 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.320 kind of like technical obligation that they have that they're 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.800 just ignoring or is it sort of at the discretion 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.160 of the agent whether they think it's safe. What's there 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:24.680 like official policy there? 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.200 Well, if you're an agent in the field and you 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.960 come upon a migrant drowning in the water, you know 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.480 has slipped and broken their leg, and you're trying to 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.920 decide if you should go down into this area or 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.120 jump in the water and stuff, it is up to 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.760 the individual agent to decide if they can handle that. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.000 So what you find most often the agents who are 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.760 in the boats and working on either the oceans and border. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:51.680 They work on the ocean in California and they work 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.120 on the ocean. Yeah, and then obviously along the Rio Grande. 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.560 All those agents have specific training obviously and swimming. All 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.840 agents have training and swimming, but not at the level 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.720 but the agents who are working on the water deck, 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.320 so you have to go through extra training when you 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.040 take that position. It's like being on a horse patrol. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.480 You have to go through horse training and so forth. 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:15.800 But all agents are trained in just basic CPR, just 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.480 basic splinting, that kind of first aid stuff, but not 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:23.600 all agents are what they call it, not Vortech but 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.239 four Star, the rescue organization that they have now, and 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.080 that's didn't start until like the late nineties. And I 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.120 didn't even see him when I was an agent, even 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.119 though I was there until two thousand and one, I 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.160 didn't see him out in Campo whenever we had a 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.040 call about a rescue in Campo, at least the old 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.520 Campo station that was on four Skate Road before they 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.920 changed it all around. We had to go out in 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.600 teams and that's the only time we worked in teams. 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.440 Otherwise we hiked alone is if we were doing a rescue, 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.240 especially in the wintertime because it was even more dangerous, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.760 and we hiked all night until we found them. So 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.640 us regular agents just on the line would just move 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:11.239 our positions and keep going, and we didn't necessarily have 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.040 any specific training. We didn't repel a lot of helicopters 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.040 back then and do all that stuff. What I think 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.800 that they started for was because we had a lot 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.399 of attrition in the nineties and it was more about 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.720 getting us regular agents that patrol the border away from 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.159 the border because we were having that's when our massive 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.679 suicide started, because of all the death that we were seeing. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:38.639 And I think it was an effort to keep the 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:41.760 average agent from seeing the brutality of what they were doing, 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.520 quite honestly, and so like I as an agent had 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.080 lots of experience with dead bodies and so forth. But 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.040 agents today who are on the line, they don't. They 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.479 sit in their trucks, they watch the cameras, and then 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.280 when a dire thing comes out that somebody needs to 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.879 be rescued forced our handles handles it. They might go 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.679 do perimeter things and help out a little bit, but 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.239 they're not involved in the actual rescues. You know, in 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.120 my day, I didn't know. I didn't know that many 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.960 agents who had never seen who had never experienced that, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.680 And I kind of think in a weird way that 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:23.359 that's what makes today's agents so non caring, so non 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:28.000 sympathetic to the migrants. We didn't call them invaders. And 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.480 it's not to say that we weren't racist and we're brutal. 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.680 It's just it's gotten even more brutal and more racist 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.080 since since I was an agent, And certainly I would 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.800 say that the brutality that may have happened, that would 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.840 have happened maybe on an individual basis or with certain 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:50.000 groups of agents. It's now policy throughout the whole agency, 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.280 and you're expected to be that brutal. And if you 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.520 can't be that brutal, then you can't hack it. So 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.720 but the idea that they're all first responders, that just 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.359 means they wear a bat and have a gun and 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.280 have a car with you know, red and blue lives 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:08.119 on it. But they're not all necessarily trained in like 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.760 the type of rescue that we're talking about in the 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.920 Hopkamba area in the mountains that takes very physically. I 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.199 could do it when I was younger, but obviously I 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:18.000 can't do it now. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:20.040 Yeah. 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.560 Yeah, we would have to get our best best agents, 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.000 and especially if we went north at the checkpoint north 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.000 of I eight up into the lagunas we would have 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.080 to get our best fit agents up there to do that. 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.640 Yeah, and it seems like that I don't see them 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.640 as much, certainly, like when there's a search and rescue now, 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.240 just like everything else at the border very often falls 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:45.240 on volunteers and community groups and people who are willing 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:47.600 to give their time and take the non legible personal 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:48.800 risk to rescue people. 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.359 Because a I think we might have rescued more people 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.080 back then even with half the amount of agents, simply 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.560 because when we got the call, we went and we looked. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.000 And sometimes we meet the friend other rallies right at 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:02.960 the border and they show us this is a group, 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:04.760 and so we looked for the sign and then we 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.200 could you know, frog it and get ahead of it. 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.040 Whereas today if you call a bors Star while all 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.240 the Boord store agents have to get their gear on 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.520 and then they have to get the helicopter and fly. 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.840 Yeah, And I mean that's even if they're willing. So 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.359 like I know with the group that made a call 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.159 this weekend for a gentleman who was in distress and 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:34.840 had been suffering very greatly from exposure, and the agent 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:36.879 in the office said it would be hours maybe days 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.560 before they arrived, right, So like if you can get through, 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.840 if you can get them to come out, like you 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.960 know that this and that that's very common. That's something 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.080 that that that is not unusual at all. This the 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.880 disdain for coming to the disdain for people's lives right 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:58.679 for coming to rescue them. It is extremely obvious, really, 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:00.720 and like that's a good It's not someone who has 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.400 to be located. Like I can give you a GPS 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.359 reading down to you know, I think it's twenty figures, 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:07.879 you know, extremely accurate location. 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.400 It's just oh, yeah, we didn't have that in our day. 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.440 I mean there was GPS, but we didn't have GPS capability. 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:17.600 I never worked with GPS, so I worked with a 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:18.800 compass that was pretty much. 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.280 Yet, Yeah, it's yeah, I mean they have they have 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:23.919 more technology than you know. 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.240 I know, the agents today tell me they can see 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.240 each other in the field. So they have something or 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:34.399 their GPS system to tracked each other and so they 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:36.120 can see where each other is. We never had. 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.720 Yeah, they did to military technology, just like everything else 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.080