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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it Could Happen Here podcast

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Speaker 2: about how things are falling apart and people trying to

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Speaker 2: put them back together. Today, more in the how things

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Speaker 2: are Falling apart category, we are talking about the border

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Speaker 2: again and I'm joined by Gen Pud who you've heard

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Speaker 2: from before, but just a reminder, Jen is a former

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Speaker 2: senior patrol agent with the Border Patrol and now an

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Speaker 2: immigrant rights activist.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Showjo, Thanks for having me again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome. So we're gathered here today, I guess

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Speaker 2: to talk about this ridiculous spectacle of the Texas National

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Speaker 2: Guard occupying some border adjacent land. The border, as I said,

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Speaker 2: right down the middle of the river there. So they're

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Speaker 2: not actually occupying that the physical border, right, they're occupying

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Speaker 2: that the nearest land spot to it is that right, correct?

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Speaker 3: The border in that area is in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the river.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and preventing Border patrol from accessing the river. And

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Speaker 2: I think, like we were just talking before we recorded,

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Speaker 2: but the reporting on this has been a bit kind

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Speaker 2: of slap shot. A lot of it have just been

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Speaker 2: social media posting. So I was hoping that you could

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Speaker 2: help us understand like a This isn't like like a

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Speaker 2: standoff between Texas and the Border patrol, right, but it's

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Speaker 2: not like Texas kind of swept in and suddenly they

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Speaker 2: were there and they weren't there before it. Border patrol

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Speaker 2: had to allow this to happen. To agree, is that

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Speaker 2: fair to say?

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Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say. I mean, at the moment,

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Speaker 3: I think the administration is trying to portray that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the Border Patrol tried to come out there and rescue.

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Speaker 3: I think the latest I've heard is that reportedly there

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Speaker 3: were six people in the river that were surrounding and

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Speaker 3: they went to go rescue them, and the Texas military,

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Speaker 3: the I guess Texas now Guard ended up blocking them

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Speaker 3: and saying they can't go. Now, this park is a

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Speaker 3: very well known park that during the Trump administration they

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Speaker 3: were trying to build a wall. They've been wanting a

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Speaker 3: wall there, but the people in that city, I believe

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Speaker 3: it's equal pass is that they, you know, they don't

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Speaker 3: want a wall there. That's the city park and they

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Speaker 3: just don't want a wall right there. And so Greg

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Speaker 3: Abbott has sent in Texas National Guard to put up

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Speaker 3: all the razor wire, all the you know, plotation devices

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Speaker 3: with she would call it a saw blade on the

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Speaker 3: middle of it that they claim saves lives. All this

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Speaker 3: stuff apparently is rescue technique stuff, and they claim it

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Speaker 3: it saves more lives than it hurts. And so the

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Speaker 3: people that put out this stuff to injure people or

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Speaker 3: claiming that they didn't allow people to drown. So I

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Speaker 3: find that hard to But at the same time, the

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Speaker 3: Border Patrol is the Border Patrol is always silent, you know,

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Speaker 3: they're always silent about this. They let CBP talk to

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Speaker 3: talk for them. They'll let the administration talk for them.

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Speaker 3: The Union is claiming that Greg Abbott is the best

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Speaker 3: thing in the world. They think it's great that he

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Speaker 3: stopped their own agents from rescuing a woman and two children.

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Speaker 3: So apparently three of the people got back to shore

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Speaker 3: on the Mexican side, and then the woman and two

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Speaker 3: children ended up drowning and their bodies were found on

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Speaker 3: the Mexican side. Texas military is claiming that when they

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Speaker 3: were notified that people were in the river, they went

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Speaker 3: and they shined lights and they looked, but they didn't

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Speaker 3: see anything. We did have the I don't know if

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Speaker 3: it was Texas Military, it was in the area of

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Speaker 3: the state of Texas on the same Rio or Grande,

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Speaker 3: where some either National Guard or Texas National Guard or

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Speaker 3: military or somebody just was sitting in a boat in

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Speaker 3: front of a woman with a child and she was

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Speaker 3: starting to sink into the sand because it's like quicksand

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Speaker 3: over there, and they wouldn't rescue her, and Border patrol

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Speaker 3: drove by really fast and put away, So it's not

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Speaker 3: surprising that they wouldn't go rescue them. This is the

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Speaker 3: first time that they publicly said that they've had a

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Speaker 3: confrontation with a border patrol. But I don't think the

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Speaker 3: Border Patrol tried very hard to rescue them. I mean

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Speaker 3: they do have boats and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah they have yeah, yeah, they're there are many way helicopters. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they have lots of equipment to rescue people sometimes just

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Speaker 2: let's desire, shall we say?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it's to me the interesting thing

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Speaker 3: is watching Democratic politicians point their fingers at Greg Abbott,

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Speaker 3: and rightly so for this, for this scene. But yet

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Speaker 3: at the same time, what the Border Patrol does every day,

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Speaker 3: Their deterns policies every day, kill people every day, So

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Speaker 3: the Border Patrol is not doing anything different so to

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Speaker 3: act like, oh my god, we didn't get out to

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Speaker 3: save these migrants and we really wanted to is kind

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Speaker 3: of like, well, I mean, people die probably every hour

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Speaker 3: crossing that river and you haven't cured before, and we've

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Speaker 3: been doing it since nineteen ninety four. So it's kind

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Speaker 3: of it's kind of hard to get really upset at

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Speaker 3: Greg Abbott, who's doing nothing but what the National Border

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Speaker 3: Patrol has done for you know, thirty something years. And

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Speaker 3: at the same time, the victims are always the migrants

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Speaker 3: that you know, That's what we should be upset about,

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Speaker 3: is that our policies, whether federal or state, are killing

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Speaker 3: people who are seeking asylum and seeking safety. That's what

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think like this attempt to make it

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Speaker 2: like Republican governor is killing migrants thing is an attempt

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Speaker 2: to like distract us from the fact that democratic president

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Speaker 2: is killing migrants in much greater numbers by virtue of

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Speaker 2: the amount of land covered by you know, Biden's jurisdiction

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Speaker 2: compared to Abbots. But yeah, I think it's very hypocritical.

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Speaker 3: And it's it's funny to you in that or I'm

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Speaker 3: not funny but ironic, and that the Border Patrolley Union

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Speaker 3: is putting out the numbers of when Trump's last year

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Speaker 3: as president of death on the southern border, and these

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Speaker 3: are just the ones that they find, not yeah, the

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Speaker 3: actual number, which is usually three to four times as many.

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Speaker 3: And then they're saying, oh, look, in Biden's year, this

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Speaker 3: has been twenty twenty three was the most deadly year.

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Speaker 3: But it's like, you know, you guys never cared about

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Speaker 3: how many people were dying before, and now sudden you're like,

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Speaker 3: you're killing more minents than anybody else. Are you jealous?

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Speaker 3: What's the deal?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like the idea that these people are consend that

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Speaker 2: they're like in Cumba, they keep people in open air

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Speaker 2: attention for up to a week and in the freezing cold,

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Speaker 2: you know, in San Diego Santasedro people are two people

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Speaker 2: have died. In Santa Cedro person has died. In the

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Speaker 2: number probably dozens more people have died crossing in other

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Speaker 2: routes that we haven't seen this year. It's it's been

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Speaker 2: not as wet as previous winters. But just in my

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Speaker 2: just in this week, I've seen people in extremely dire

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Speaker 2: medical distress, and I've seen border patrol scream at those

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Speaker 2: people and scream that people trying to help those people

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Speaker 2: and not do anything to help. So I'm finding it

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Speaker 2: hard to buy that this is all Greg greg Abbott's fault,

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Speaker 2: not that Greg Abbott is't a piece of shit. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think we're in agreement on that, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the the attempt to lay all the blame at Greg

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Speaker 2: abbts feet and suggests that there isn't complete bipartisan agreement

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Speaker 2: it seems on killing migrants even like we don't see

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Speaker 2: in the Trump era, we saw you know, AOC turn

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Speaker 2: up and cry at the you know, unaccompanyed children or

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Speaker 2: the other separation of family separation attention, and we don't

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Speaker 2: even see that anymore, Like we don't have any ear

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Speaker 2: of that, and that's refected in the press. Right, we

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Speaker 2: don't see anywhere near as much coverage of the brutality

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Speaker 2: at the border as we used to. One thing that

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Speaker 2: you've mentioned before we started with that you had there's

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Speaker 2: some like there's pretty clear case law or Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: decisions at least about like what BP could have done

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Speaker 2: or what their rights are visa VI the National Guard,

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Speaker 2: could you explain some of fat well.

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Speaker 3: As clear immigration precedent, So in eighteen seventy five. So

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Speaker 3: prior to the Civil War a little bit after the

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Speaker 3: Civil War, states had always done their own immigration. So

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Speaker 3: if you showed up in a boat on New Orleans

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Speaker 3: in New Orleans Harbor, they would have their own immigration.

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Speaker 3: You would have to pay a lot of times. In

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Speaker 3: the California area, California was charging, especially Chinese migrants who

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Speaker 3: were coming over for the railroad and the gold rush

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Speaker 3: and things like that. When they brought groups of Chinese

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Speaker 3: women over, then California would label the ball as prostitutes

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Speaker 3: and no good people, and then they would put them

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Speaker 3: in jail and then find the captain of the ship

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Speaker 3: like five hundred dollars a person, which is by today's

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Speaker 3: standards it's like over fourteen thousand dollars, such a lot

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Speaker 3: of money. Yeah, yeah. And so one of the one

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Speaker 3: of the female migrants in eighteen seventy five, so that

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Speaker 3: you had no right to hold us in jail. You

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Speaker 3: don't have this right. There's nothing that says that you

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Speaker 3: have this right according to US law back then. And

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Speaker 3: so the case is called Chai Cchy Lung Lung versus Freemen.

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Speaker 3: And in eighteen seventy five the Supreme Court decision was

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Speaker 3: that immigration is solely the federal government's right to enforce

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Speaker 3: and not the States, simply because of diplomatic relations. Also

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Speaker 3: that we have treaties with other countries, and we have

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Speaker 3: relationships with other countries, and they believe that while allowing

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Speaker 3: state to do their own immigration would then hurt the

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Speaker 3: United States in diplomacy with these other countries. And then

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Speaker 3: the other thing that they mentioned was that there have

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Speaker 3: been no due process given to the migrants during the time,

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Speaker 3: and that's sufforded to migrants, whether they're undocumented or not

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Speaker 3: based on the Constitution. And then recently in two thousand.

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Speaker 3: The most recent time that was brought up was in

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Speaker 3: twenty twelve when Arizona sued the United States. The Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court upheld in that case that law enforcement can question

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Speaker 3: citizenship during a legal stop, but denied other parts of

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Speaker 3: the Arizona law SB. Ten seventy, which allowed their peace

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Speaker 3: officers to act like immigration officers. And they said, the

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Speaker 3: reason why they can't do that, which is what greg

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Speaker 3: Abbott is doing. The reason why Supreme Court said they

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Speaker 3: can't do that in twenty twelve was because of Article

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Speaker 3: six Clause two, which states that the Constitution federal laws.

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Speaker 3: Treaties made under federal authority take priority over state laws.

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Speaker 3: So it's, you know, the supremacy clause. Basically, it's what

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Speaker 3: it is. And so it's kind of like what Trump

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Speaker 3: did when he was in office, where he starts separating children,

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Speaker 3: and he starts putting everybody he crosses the border, whether

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Speaker 3: it's for asylum or for nefarious reasons. In between the poorts,

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Speaker 3: he we'd take away their children. And I mean, that

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Speaker 3: was in violation of the nineteen eighty Refugee Act, and

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Speaker 3: yet nobody really fought it on that basis. I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure why they didn't find it on that basis. I'm

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Speaker 3: not an attorney, so I can't tell you, but at

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Speaker 3: least you know this this decision Chai Lung versus Freeman,

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Speaker 3: It's been around since eighteen seventy five and was brought

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Speaker 3: up in twenty twelve, and the Supreme Court awesome used

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Speaker 3: Chai Lung to make its argument of why Arizona couldn't

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Speaker 3: have certain parts of SB ten seventy out. So what

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Speaker 3: Greg Abbott is doing is the same thing Trump is doing.

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Speaker 3: Is like, I will break the law, and you can

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Speaker 3: take me to court and we'll see if this court

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Speaker 3: agrees with what the last court said. So they're just

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Speaker 3: breaking the law and then enduring people to take them

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Speaker 3: to court is simply what they're doing. In in the

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Speaker 3: middle of this, obviously the migrants are caught, the humanitarian

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Speaker 3: organizations and everybody's caught. It causes chaos, basically, is what

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Speaker 3: it's doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's causing an absolute mess at the border. And

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Speaker 2: I think understandably what you hear from migrants is like

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Speaker 2: the people who are better informed, who have access to information, resources, finances,

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Speaker 2: are telling me that they don't want to go to Texas,

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Speaker 2: right because right, it's a mess, and it's a mess

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Speaker 2: that kills people. And that's exactly what it's supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: It's supposed to be uncertain, and it's supposed to be cruel.

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Speaker 2: And so people who have the chance to you will

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Speaker 2: come here. People who can't afford to right that they're

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Speaker 2: coming north directly and it sort of takes us is there,

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Speaker 2: you know, if they head directly north, but that that's

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Speaker 2: where they end up. Taxas has a huge amount of border,

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Speaker 2: of course, then they're the people who tend to be

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Speaker 2: the ones who are forced across there. And unfortunately that's

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Speaker 2: realotten a much higher, as you said, at my higher

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Speaker 2: death rate, right, Nick, it's do you have a sense

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Speaker 2: of like I suppose it will be hard to tell

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Speaker 2: because we have very little and were proper statistics, but like,

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Speaker 2: what is the most fatal kind of part of the border.

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Speaker 3: It's difficult to tell if it's the Sonoran Desert or

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Speaker 3: if it's the Rio Grande River. And I say that

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Speaker 3: because we don't see half the bodies, or we probably

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Speaker 3: don't see ninety percent of the bodies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know a lot of port deaths are on

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Speaker 2: the t Reservation to Ho Reservation.

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Speaker 3: In there's the bombing very goldwater bombing area that nobody's

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Speaker 3: allowed in, but when they are occasionally allowed in, they

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Speaker 3: find like groups of thirteen fifteen skeletons and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's a toss that between the Sonoran

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Speaker 3: Desert and the Rio Grande River. The other problem with

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Speaker 3: Texas's border is that primarily the majority of the property

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Speaker 3: on the border in Texas is private property, and they

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Speaker 3: tend to be very large ranches which may be no

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Speaker 3: ranch hand or anybody goes out, you know, through the

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Speaker 3: acres to see this and they might never ever find

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Speaker 3: the bodies. It's kind of like the Sonoran desert and

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Speaker 3: the Po nation and then the bombing range, and then

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Speaker 3: just the fact that the desert will just destroy the

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Speaker 3: bones pretty quickly, especially once the winds cover thinks up

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Speaker 3: that we have a fair amountain Campo, as you know,

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Speaker 3: in the Hakamba Campo Wilderness area and the mountains and

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Speaker 3: the Laguna Mountains. But I don't think it's near as

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Speaker 3: bad because you can look at those mountains and see

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Speaker 3: how bad they are, and most people don't want to

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Speaker 3: dare across those mountains, but many still do. Obviously I

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Speaker 3: worked out there, You're familiar with that area, and so

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Speaker 3: we have more than our fair share for certain. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I would say I would say probably it's between

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Speaker 3: Texas the Rio Grande and then the Sonora doesn't for.

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Speaker 2: Sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, I think I think that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: It's probably a good time for us to break the

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Speaker 2: border is getting people. If these adverts probably aren't that,

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Speaker 2: they're still not great. So you enjoy these products and services.

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Speaker 2: All right, we are back, and Jen, I wanted to ask, like,

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Speaker 2: with regard to these I think there's a couple of

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Speaker 2: things that people might not be clear w on. We

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Speaker 2: tried to explain them on the podcast before the first

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Speaker 2: is like Border Patrol will always say that all the

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Speaker 2: BP agents are first responders, right, It's this line that

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Speaker 2: they have, And like do they like in terms of rescues,

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Speaker 2: are they sort of like technically obliged to make rescues.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen people in very great stress and

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Speaker 2: I've seen Border Patrol do nothing more times than I

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Speaker 2: can count. So like I'm wondering, like is there some

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Speaker 2: kind of like technical obligation that they have that they're

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Speaker 2: just ignoring or is it sort of at the discretion

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Speaker 2: of the agent whether they think it's safe. What's there

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Speaker 2: like official policy there?

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Speaker 3: Well, if you're an agent in the field and you

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Speaker 3: come upon a migrant drowning in the water, you know

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Speaker 3: has slipped and broken their leg, and you're trying to

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Speaker 3: decide if you should go down into this area or

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Speaker 3: jump in the water and stuff, it is up to

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Speaker 3: the individual agent to decide if they can handle that.

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Speaker 3: So what you find most often the agents who are

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Speaker 3: in the boats and working on either the oceans and border.

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Speaker 3: They work on the ocean in California and they work

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Speaker 3: on the ocean. Yeah, and then obviously along the Rio Grande.

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Speaker 3: All those agents have specific training obviously and swimming. All

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Speaker 3: agents have training and swimming, but not at the level

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Speaker 3: but the agents who are working on the water deck,

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Speaker 3: so you have to go through extra training when you

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Speaker 3: take that position. It's like being on a horse patrol.

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Speaker 3: You have to go through horse training and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But all agents are trained in just basic CPR, just

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Speaker 3: basic splinting, that kind of first aid stuff, but not

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Speaker 3: all agents are what they call it, not Vortech but

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Speaker 3: four Star, the rescue organization that they have now, and

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Speaker 3: that's didn't start until like the late nineties. And I

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Speaker 3: didn't even see him when I was an agent, even

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Speaker 3: though I was there until two thousand and one, I

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Speaker 3: didn't see him out in Campo whenever we had a

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Speaker 3: call about a rescue in Campo, at least the old

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Speaker 3: Campo station that was on four Skate Road before they

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Speaker 3: changed it all around. We had to go out in

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Speaker 3: teams and that's the only time we worked in teams.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise we hiked alone is if we were doing a rescue,

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Speaker 3: especially in the wintertime because it was even more dangerous,

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Speaker 3: and we hiked all night until we found them. So

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Speaker 3: us regular agents just on the line would just move

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Speaker 3: our positions and keep going, and we didn't necessarily have

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Speaker 3: any specific training. We didn't repel a lot of helicopters

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Speaker 3: back then and do all that stuff. What I think

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Speaker 3: that they started for was because we had a lot

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Speaker 3: of attrition in the nineties and it was more about

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Speaker 3: getting us regular agents that patrol the border away from

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Speaker 3: the border because we were having that's when our massive

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Speaker 3: suicide started, because of all the death that we were seeing.

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Speaker 3: And I think it was an effort to keep the

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Speaker 3: average agent from seeing the brutality of what they were doing,

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Speaker 3: quite honestly, and so like I as an agent had

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Speaker 3: lots of experience with dead bodies and so forth. But

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Speaker 3: agents today who are on the line, they don't. They

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Speaker 3: sit in their trucks, they watch the cameras, and then

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Speaker 3: when a dire thing comes out that somebody needs to

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Speaker 3: be rescued forced our handles handles it. They might go

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Speaker 3: do perimeter things and help out a little bit, but

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Speaker 3: they're not involved in the actual rescues. You know, in

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Speaker 3: my day, I didn't know. I didn't know that many

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Speaker 3: agents who had never seen who had never experienced that,

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Speaker 3: And I kind of think in a weird way that

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Speaker 3: that's what makes today's agents so non caring, so non

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Speaker 3: sympathetic to the migrants. We didn't call them invaders. And

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Speaker 3: it's not to say that we weren't racist and we're brutal.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's gotten even more brutal and more racist

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Speaker 3: since since I was an agent, And certainly I would

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Speaker 3: say that the brutality that may have happened, that would

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Speaker 3: have happened maybe on an individual basis or with certain

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Speaker 3: groups of agents. It's now policy throughout the whole agency,

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Speaker 3: and you're expected to be that brutal. And if you

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Speaker 3: can't be that brutal, then you can't hack it. So

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Speaker 3: but the idea that they're all first responders, that just

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Speaker 3: means they wear a bat and have a gun and

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Speaker 3: have a car with you know, red and blue lives

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Speaker 3: on it. But they're not all necessarily trained in like

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Speaker 3: the type of rescue that we're talking about in the

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Speaker 3: Hopkamba area in the mountains that takes very physically. I

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Speaker 3: could do it when I was younger, but obviously I

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Speaker 3: can't do it now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we would have to get our best best agents,

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Speaker 3: and especially if we went north at the checkpoint north

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Speaker 3: of I eight up into the lagunas we would have

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Speaker 3: to get our best fit agents up there to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems like that I don't see them

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Speaker 2: as much, certainly, like when there's a search and rescue now,

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Speaker 2: just like everything else at the border very often falls

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Speaker 2: on volunteers and community groups and people who are willing

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Speaker 2: to give their time and take the non legible personal

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Speaker 2: risk to rescue people.

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Speaker 3: Because a I think we might have rescued more people

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Speaker 3: back then even with half the amount of agents, simply

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Speaker 3: because when we got the call, we went and we looked.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes we meet the friend other rallies right at

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Speaker 3: the border and they show us this is a group,

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Speaker 3: and so we looked for the sign and then we

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Speaker 3: could you know, frog it and get ahead of it.

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Speaker 3: Whereas today if you call a bors Star while all

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Speaker 3: the Boord store agents have to get their gear on

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Speaker 3: and then they have to get the helicopter and fly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean that's even if they're willing. So

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Speaker 2: like I know with the group that made a call

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Speaker 2: this weekend for a gentleman who was in distress and

378
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Speaker 2: had been suffering very greatly from exposure, and the agent

379
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Speaker 2: in the office said it would be hours maybe days

380
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Speaker 2: before they arrived, right, So like if you can get through,

381
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 2: if you can get them to come out, like you

382
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 2: know that this and that that's very common. That's something

383
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Speaker 2: that that that is not unusual at all. This the

384
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Speaker 2: disdain for coming to the disdain for people's lives right

385
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Speaker 2: for coming to rescue them. It is extremely obvious, really,

386
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Speaker 2: and like that's a good It's not someone who has

387
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Speaker 2: to be located. Like I can give you a GPS

388
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: reading down to you know, I think it's twenty figures,

389
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Speaker 2: you know, extremely accurate location.

390
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Speaker 3: It's just oh, yeah, we didn't have that in our day.

391
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Speaker 3: I mean there was GPS, but we didn't have GPS capability.

392
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Speaker 3: I never worked with GPS, so I worked with a

393
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 3: compass that was pretty much.

394
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Speaker 2: Yet, Yeah, it's yeah, I mean they have they have

395
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Speaker 2: more technology than you know.

396
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Speaker 3: I know, the agents today tell me they can see

397
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Speaker 3: each other in the field. So they have something or

398
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 3: their GPS system to tracked each other and so they

399
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 3: can see where each other is. We never had.

400
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did to military technology, just like everything else

401
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: that trickle down to the border patrol and sometimes trickles

402
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 2: from the border patrol down to the military actually with

403
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 2: a lot of the surveillance technology. Like, I think another

404
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: thing that people might not be aware of, and this

405
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 2: is something that I think has happened recently but being

406
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 2: young for several years now, is the deployment of National

407
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: God to the border. I think people know that that

408
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: is happening in Texas, but I think people probably aren't

409
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: aware that there's also a federal mission to the border,

410
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: right that that encompasses much more than Texas. And what

411
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 2: are they National God, Well, I mean they I know

412
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 2: they sit outside detention camps in Ukumber shouting at me,

413
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Speaker 2: But what is their mission in theory at the border?

414
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Speaker 2: What are they doing there?

415
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Speaker 3: Well, in theory their mission at the border is now

416
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: they have these giant processing tints you know in San

417
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 3: Diego and in Cheese on ane of the things. So

418
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 3: in general, what they're supposed to be doing is not

419
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Speaker 3: actively arresting or apprehending people, because that, according to the law,

420
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Speaker 3: would violate it. What they're supposed to be doing is

421
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 3: is maybe sitting in a stationary spot operating the scope

422
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,719
Speaker 3: where they can tell border patrol at night, you know

423
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Speaker 3: there's a group over here, da da DA, And then

424
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Speaker 3: the rest of the time, they're mostly supposed to be

425
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 3: working in the processing centers, assistant people if they need

426
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 3: to go to medical or if they need this or that,

427
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 3: and so they're just supposed to help so that the

428
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 3: agents don't have to sit around and babysit so much,

429
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Speaker 3: so that they can be back in the field. That's

430
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 3: what they're supposed to be doing. And I mean lots

431
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 3: of presidents have done it. Barack Obama did it, you know,

432
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Speaker 3: so it's not unusual unusual. What is unusual is that

433
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Speaker 3: in Texas you have Texas DPS and the military Texas

434
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: National Guard actually pretending like they are border patrol agents

435
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: and running around and apprehending people even though they do

436
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 3: not have that legal authority. The US government has not

437
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 3: given it to them. And then the other thing I

438
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,239
Speaker 3: think which is legally the most dangerous is where they

439
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 3: push the migrants back into the water. Number One, The

440
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: law is that if you set foot on US soil,

441
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 3: then you're entitled to an immigration hearing if you so choo,

442
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: and you cannot turn somebody back. Agent cannot legally turn

443
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 3: somebody back once they've crossed, So once they're across that

444
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: middle part of the river, they're in the United States

445
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 3: and they're your problem now. So you have to deal

446
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 3: with that, and you have to process them. You have

447
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 3: to figure out who they are. You have to friend

448
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: and records checks and all this other stuff. It'd be interesting.

449
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 3: You know, the Biden administration has it pressed abbot on this,

450
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 3: and I've always wondered, why are they allowing him to

451
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 3: do this and take over immigration as a state authority. Yeah.

452
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: I think they just don't want to fight it.

453
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't want to be attacked on like this,

454
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: like this idea that Biden's like, there's this myth of

455
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: Biden's opens borders, which is actually ridiculous and be like,

456
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: as Erica reminded us last week, like we all as

457
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: US passport holders, have open borders to us all over

458
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: the world. It's very problematic. We think other people shouldn't.

459
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think the idea of looking weak or like,

460
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,239
Speaker 2: you know, he wants to but dressed himself against an

461
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: attack from the right.

462
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: The same reason why he won't get rid of the

463
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: Border Patrol Union, because you know the Border Patrol Union.

464
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 3: Now that Donald Trump before he left diet he gave

465
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: them what's called security designation, So are they are a

466
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 3: security organization now, which means they're like the FBI, they're

467
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: like the DA and all this other stuff, and so

468
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 3: they can't have a bargaining unit. So the Border Patrol

469
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 3: Union is actually illegal under five USC. Seven one one

470
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 3: two lit'll b Little sixth. But Biden is week and

471
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: he doesn't want to look like he hates unions. He

472
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 3: always wants to look like he's strong on unions because

473
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: he's a union politician, and he refuses to get rid

474
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: of him. But the fear and the reason why that

475
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: law exists is exactly what we see them doing now,

476
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 3: where the union representatives who are border patrol agents, they

477
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: have national security information and they're actively working against this

478
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 3: current administration. So that's why we have it. But he's

479
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 3: just weak and he won't do anything about.

480
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: It, right and it certainly I think whoever wins next time,

481
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: they're not going to do anything about it now. Yeah,

482
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: I think either way. You like also pattention to the

483
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: VP union and I think it's one of the worst

484
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: accounts on Twitter dot com. But I also like, I'm

485
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: in the event of a Republican victory, which at the

486
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: moment it's looking like Trump might be then nominee. Right,

487
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: certainly it seems for support for Trump. Kind of these

488
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: people seem to have his ear on immigration and they

489
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: seem to want the same things, right, So I'm wondering

490
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: Biden has been bad. His border policy has been objectively bad,

491
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 2: and it's very hard for me not to see it

492
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: as racist. Like it's very hard for me not to

493
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 2: see his immigrate policy is specifically favoring white people and

494
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: specifically disadvantaging black people. And I don't think I could

495
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: be persuaded that's not the case. What do you think,

496
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: Like it seems that immigration policy only moves one way

497
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 2: and it just gets worse and worse, and border policy

498
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: does the same. What are they like demanding and what

499
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: do you think is sort of at stake in the

500
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: upcoming election this year's election regarding the border.

501
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 3: So I was paying attention to what Speaker Johnson was

502
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 3: saying before we logged on to talk, and he was

503
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: saying that there was going to be no deal for

504
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: the border unless Donald Trump was the one doing the deal.

505
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: So he doesn't want to even fund the border patrol

506
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: right now. So I mean, my impression of what the

507
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: border patrol and what the union is trying to do

508
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: at this moment is that they are trying to make

509
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: the border as chaotic as absolutely possible, and that is

510
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: their goal. They want bodies, black and brown bodies coming

511
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 3: over that fence, and they want the optics of it.

512
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: That's what I think is going on, and that's why

513
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: I think that they're picking specific cities to have a

514
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: lot of the migrants come through. I think that that's

515
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: the reason why they have like specific cities, because you

516
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: saw like a couple of weeks together, they're like, oh

517
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 3: my god, the border's being overrun, and oh my god,

518
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: what are we going to do? And this and that,

519
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: and then you realize it's just like three or four suctors,

520
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 3: and even within those sectors, it's just one or two areas.

521
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: It's not the entire border. Is it problematic? Is it chaotic?

522
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: Is it a human rights disaster for the minors? Yes?

523
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: Is it that for the Border Patrol? No? I think

524
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: the Border Patrol is adding to it. And in fact,

525
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: when I do the numbers and you compare like the

526
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: staff that we have back when I was an agent

527
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 3: and the staff that they have today, they're not even

528
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: apprehending half the amount that each agent apprehended when we

529
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: were in the patrol back in the day, and so

530
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: you know, for them to apprehend the group. Now, when

531
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 3: I see them apprehend a group of life, even ten people,

532
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: twelve people, they will take five agents to apprehend twelve people.

533
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: I have apprehended one hundred people by myself, and that's

534
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: not safe. I shouldn't suggest that people do that, but

535
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 3: I have apprehended. It is normal for a border patrol

536
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: agent to apprehend twenty to thirty people by themselves, including

537
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: a female agent who's at the time was super skinny

538
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: and super small. And the reason why is because the

539
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: vast majority of migrants aren't criminals and they're not trying

540
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 3: to hurt you. So that's why a single agent can

541
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: apprehend so many people. But today they use like six

542
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 3: or seven agents to apprehend groups, and so I'm not

543
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: sure why they're overwhelmed. Quite frankly, they should be able

544
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 3: to handle three hundred, four hundred thousand people a month

545
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 3: in the border patrol if they have to.

546
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, even though a world without the border patrol

547
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: would be better, in a world without this bloated and

548
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: violent and overfunded and really terribly just just a mess

549
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: of quality and violence that we have now would be

550
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: a lot better, but things could get a lot worse

551
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: for those people, like even the time it takes for

552
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: them to be processed, and that the time it takes

553
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: for them to have their hearing. Immigration law could change

554
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: for the worse very quickly if either person wins presidency.

555
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: And indeed, like it seems that Biden has floated like

556
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: a return to a title forty two as a compromise

557
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: to get funding for Ukraine. So like, yeah, this inefficiency

558
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: doesn't just like even when people are apprehended, their failure to

559
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: do their jobs hurts people right like it puts them

560
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: at greater risk.

561
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: It does. And I mean a lot of the things

562
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: that the border Patrol has done has created and made

563
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: these things worse. A lot of the areas out near Sasabe,

564
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: a lot of people never even crossed until Trump put

565
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: that wall out there because they didn't have road access

566
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: to a lot of that area. And if you did

567
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: have road access, you had to have a very serious

568
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: four by four to get out there. You can't do

569
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 3: it in a regular car, and you can't do it

570
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: in a kind of city type of four by four.

571
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: You need a serious four by four to get it

572
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: into some of those areas, and then just our policies

573
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: are deterrence policies. You know, when I was an agent

574
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 3: in the nineties, it costs you know, probably somebody from

575
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: Central America costs about eighteen hundred dollars to get here.

576
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: Now it's ten thousand or more dollars. So we've made

577
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 3: it profitable for people to smuggle people in and cross

578
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 3: them illegally. Illegally, We've created this entire situation ourselves. I mean,

579
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 3: I don't have any doubt that other countries that maybe

580
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 3: don't like as you know, all the migrants coming across,

581
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 3: the destabilization that will cause. With people who are racist

582
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: or who don't know anything about the border, they all

583
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: see that as a bonus. But the fact of the

584
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: matter is is that people who are crossing they still

585
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 3: need asylum, They still have serious needs. Just because you know,

586
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: I've seen some people floating around that people are pushing

587
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 3: migrants across our southern border to destabilize US. I don't

588
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: know if that's necessarily true. We don't have any proof

589
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: of that. But even if they are, isn't the better

590
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 3: attitude to have because asylum is legal, isn't the better

591
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: attitude to have, well, how can we better, you know,

592
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: help these people and not let this destabilize who we

593
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 3: are and make them part of our communities and so forth.

594
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: I think that's a better choice than sending them out

595
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: to the desert or to drown in the rivers. Yeah.

596
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think it bears. I mean, people listening

597
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: to this will probably be in agreement that, yeah, these

598
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: people should be treated to particulanty and respect regardless. And

599
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: I generally don't buy that they're being shipped on mass

600
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: to destabilize this country. But I think even if you

601
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: don't care about their rights, every single advance advance is

602
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: around word, right, but increase in surveillance, every single increase

603
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: in state violence, every single incursion into individual rights starts

604
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: at the border, but it doesn't stop there, right, Like,

605
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: if you've protested in twenty twenty, you were surveilled by

606
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 2: technology that came from the border. You were sometimes targeting

607
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: by Leslie for weapons that were first issued to border patrol,

608
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: Like you're the intelligence that police now gather began with

609
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: border patrol. Like so much of the even the stuff

610
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: that we see used at the border today, or the

611
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: stuff that we see using surveillance today overwhelmingly comes from

612
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: either border patrol or the Israel that as a border.

613
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: And also most of these things are the same companies, right,

614
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: Companies that do one also do the other. And so like,

615
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: I guess if people are talking to people who don't

616
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: seem to care about the rights of migrants, which is

617
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: a worryingly large amount of our society, like this will

618
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 2: come and bite someone else in it, like to include

619
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 2: the people who decided to storm the Capitol on January sixth,

620
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Right, Like, lots of the efficient technology

621
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: that bit them in the ass came from the border

622
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: and the people they hated.

623
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 3: And that's absolutely true. And I mean, you know it's

624
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 3: the Border Patrol says this, but they mean it in

625
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: a different way. They say, what happens at the border

626
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 3: doesn't stay at the border, and they mean that because

627
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: they try and portray migrants as all criminals. So they're

628
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 3: trying to tell people, oh, see, these criminals are going

629
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 3: to come to Iowa or Illinois. So that but I say,

630
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: in the fact that the surveillance has come in to

631
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: you because you know, I mean, you know, in San

632
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 3: Diego we got street lamps out here that can listen

633
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 3: to US and video US YEP and track wherever we're

634
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: going down the street, from lock to block. And it's ridiculous.

635
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: You can't even walk your dog without being surveilled around here.

636
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 3: And yet we're far from them, twenty miles from the border,

637
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 3: north of the border, and it's still surveilled around here.

638
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: And so all of that surveillance, yes, that's being used

639
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 3: on American citizens. And when you go to places like McAllen,

640
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: so the Rio Grande Valley sector right now, it's really slow.

641
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 3: They're getting about a little over one thousand, maybe two

642
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 3: thousand apprehensions a week, which is really slow from the

643
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: prize of the sector. And they're like, you know, they

644
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 3: have so much surveillance, Like you can see there's a tower,

645
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 3: there's a tower. There's a tower there, and it is

646
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: all this Israeli technology and they can listen to cell

647
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: phones and that usually needs a warrant. But apparently down

648
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: here on the border, and I've had current border patrol

649
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: agents tell me the Fourth Amendment doesn't exist down here.

650
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: It's like, what is that one? The teaching here in

651
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 3: the academy now doesn't exist down here, And apparently that's

652
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 3: what border patrol agents think, and they think they have

653
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 3: I do anybody that they see, and all this other stuff,

654
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: and it just it's it's interesting how much this is spreading,

655
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: how much the checkpoints are spreading. And you know, like

656
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: in Minding, we didn't do invasive searches if it wasn't obvious,

657
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 3: we didn't stop them. And nowadays they'll do on full

658
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: body cavvy searches at a checkpoint and I'm like, what

659
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 3: I heard that, And so all this stuff is just

660
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 3: gonna it's just getting further and further into the anterior

661
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: of the United States, like we saw on the trip nustrition,

662
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: Like you said, yeah, it's going to be brought back

663
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 3: out for sure.

664
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I wonder, like how do we I mean,

665
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: it does seem very bleak, like I which is why

666
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: I like to devote so much of my time to

667
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: like mutual aid work on the border, because it's a

668
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: meaningful way to help, But how do we move the

669
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 2: needle to a more humane place? Like this is one

670
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: of the places where like I think, like we should

671
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: do whatever we can to make this like even if

672
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: it's something that would normally be this tasteful to us,

673
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: but like yeah, what is it that we can do

674
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: to either like maybe change people's minds, Like I'm sure

675
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: you yourself have changed your mind on what we need

676
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: to do on the border and to because the conversation

677
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: around the border is not only toxic, but it's also

678
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: so deeply rooted in ignorance and lack of understanding, and like,

679
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: I don't think we were talking about this before we

680
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: started back. Like I encountered a three year old girl

681
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 2: the other day who was extremely cold. She had her

682
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: feet have been wet and cold for hours days and

683
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: she was the cold beyond shivering, and we were trying

684
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: to warm her up, and it was very disstressing. I

685
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: don't think many people have seen that, And I don't

686
00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: think even you're like sort of hardest border biggert Facebook

687
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: uncles would want to look that in the face and

688
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, that's what we should do. Damn, I'm

689
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: really proud of this country. So how do we move

690
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: this to a better place? Do you think?

691
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest mistakes that the Biden

692
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 3: administration did was that they didn't, you know, in the beginning,

693
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: they hired a lot of really really good people, like

694
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 3: I think Andrea Flores was one of the administration people,

695
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 3: and she knows her stuff, and I think that they

696
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 3: had this idea from what she had said that the

697
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 3: people that support immigration and immigrant rights and this, and

698
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 3: that she was saying that they were viewed as soft

699
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: hearted individuals on immigration and they were too soft and

700
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 3: they didn't understand border security. One of the things that

701
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 3: Biden should have done was start educating Americans about why

702
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 3: the asylum system is so important and what the benefits

703
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 3: are that it brings to us. And they have never

704
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 3: done that PSAs about it. There's nothing and I don't

705
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 3: know if NGO's do it on that large environment on

706
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: cable news or whatever, because they don't really watch mainstream

707
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: news and stuff. But Americans have just astonished it. Like

708
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 3: when I started doing the TikTok videos and explaining, you know,

709
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: border patroling, the people in green cbps and blues people

710
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 3: didn't know just the basic things. The majority of Americans

711
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 3: who feel that they have a very a very specific

712
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: view on immigration, whether they hate it or they love it,

713
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 3: they don't know much about immigration. They don't know how

714
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 3: it works. They literally think people just get off their

715
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 3: couch and go, let's just go to America and they

716
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 3: just hop over the fence and they all have money

717
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 3: and they're all getting free stuff and this and that.

718
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 3: So this administration, the government has done nothing to explain

719
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 3: what is happening and why it happens. And I always

720
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 3: say that the system is essential to national security. What

721
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 3: we saw in the Biden administration when he first opened

722
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 3: up the ports of entry to allow specifically Haitians to

723
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: apply at the ports of entry, we saw the amount

724
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: of Haitians go from the crossing in between the ports

725
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 3: it regularly. We saw it going from you know, thousands

726
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: down to like one hundred and something. So the idea

727
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 3: is that you have to have a robust and humane

728
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: asylum system where you're processing people where they don't have

729
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 3: to wait so long that they're going to give up

730
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: across it regularly. Because the vast majority of people who

731
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: believe that they have a legitimate asylum claim. And I

732
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: do think that what constitutes the asylum needs to be

733
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 3: revisited because it's outdated, especially now that we have client

734
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: and change. But is that you want those people to

735
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: come and be inspected. We want people to come and

736
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: stand outside the port of entry and wait and be

737
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 3: inspected by CBP. If we're going to have a border

738
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 3: and we're going to have all this, we would want

739
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 3: that so that then we could say, Okay, we've checked them.

740
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 3: They appear to be okay. They're going to this place.

741
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 3: Now they have an immigration hearing before a judge. We're

742
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: going to make sure that they get the system and

743
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 3: you know, and then see it more as a system

744
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: that's a benefit to us, instead of creating enemies, which

745
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: is what we're doing now. Every time a migrant turns around,

746
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 3: even if they do are able to get into the

747
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 3: United States the quote unquote legal way at a port

748
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: of entry, they're still met with you can't work for

749
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty days, and then you can't do this,

750
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: and you can't do that, and you have to show up.

751
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: And so we're constant. Everything is punishment. Everything is punitive

752
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 3: in our immigration system, and we can't do that. We

753
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: want these people to become citizens. We want these people

754
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 3: to become part of our our society. We need it,

755
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: and so we have to We have to have somebody

756
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 3: bold enough to explain this to the American people. If

757
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 3: you close the asylum system, everybody's going to cross regularly

758
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 3: just like they did in title forty two, and you're

759
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 3: going to get tons and tons of bodies coming across

760
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 3: the wall. We need to be bold enough to say

761
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 3: we want a humane and robust asylum system where families

762
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 3: can wait together and be processed. And then, you know,

763
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 3: I mean the decision between should we fund detention centers

764
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: and home people who are crossing just waiting for their

765
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: immigration hearing in detention, or should we fund you know,

766
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 3: humane services like Let's get you into whatever city you're

767
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: going to. Let's help you find a school for your kids,

768
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 3: Let's help you learn English, let's help you find a job.

769
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: Let's help you and you can hire and pay people

770
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 3: to do that instead of putting people into attention. It

771
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be a punitive system. We've just made

772
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: it that way because the people on the for profit

773
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 3: prisons before Trump was supposedly elected, they were lobbying Jeff

774
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: Sessions and Steven Miller when he was working for Jeff

775
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: Sessions and so G Group and all them. They're the

776
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 3: ones that decided this is how we're going to go.

777
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: And the fact of the matter is is, I know,

778
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 3: I think we're on a disagreement with open border versus

779
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: you know, or having border patrol at all. But I

780
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: always say an open border is just as dangerous as

781
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 3: a closed border. And when when you close off the

782
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 3: asylum system, that forces everybody to then cross in between

783
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 3: the ports of entry, and that is what does overwhelm

784
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 3: border patrol. So if you don't want to overwhelm your

785
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: border patrol, then you have to pull them back and

786
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 3: you have to start processing people like they're supposed to

787
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: be processed at the court of entry. The other thing

788
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: people forget about is we've had four years, literally four

789
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 3: years of the asylum system being shut down because of

790
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 3: MPP and Title forty two. Those are current policies. It

791
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 3: took by no while to get through all those. But

792
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 3: what do you think all those people that were sitting

793
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 3: around for four years are doing. They're waiting, they're turning

794
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 3: to get over there. So we have a backlog not

795
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: just the people in the United States waiting for the immigration,

796
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: we have a backlog of people in Mexico waiting to

797
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 3: come across. So they created this whole thing themselves. I

798
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 3: find it very interesting the depress never mentions that basically

799
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 3: what TRUP did was close the whole immigration system down.

800
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 3: And kicked the can down the broad Yeah.

801
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean consciously or unconsciously. It's like shaking up

802
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: a can of beer and then someone's going to take

803
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: a little off at some point, you know, and it's

804
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 2: going to blow out. Oh yeah, and it's been willing

805
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: to and so it's still going to get kicked down

806
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: the road. I mean, people have come in since the

807
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 2: end of title forty two, but as you say, there's

808
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: a huge backlog, and people aren't, as you say, going

809
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: to stop coming, right because like it's dangerous getting here.

810
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: I've walked those trails. They're not easy, and they're certainly

811
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: not easy when you're carrying your kid and it's raining

812
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 2: and it's dark, but it's I've also been in Syria,

813
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: in Iraq and in other places where these people are

814
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: coming from, and I understand why they're doing it, and

815
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: I would do it too if I had a family

816
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: and I wanted to escape that. So I think we're

817
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: laughing if we think that we're going to I mean,

818
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 2: we've tried to make our border as unpleasant as those places,

819
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: and it's deadly as those places, right, and fortunately we failed,

820
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 2: And so that doesn't mean people will stop coming whatever.

821
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 3: We do. We've had thirty years of walls and border patrols,

822
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: concept of deterrence policies that they claim will prevent people

823
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 3: from crossing irregularly or illegally, and they've all failed. And

824
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 3: I think it's time to try something new. I think

825
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: it's time to stop listening to the people who get

826
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 3: all the money and get all the guns and get

827
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: all the militarizations, saying it has to be this way.

828
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: It does not have to be that way. And I

829
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 3: think it's very important to point out that we live

830
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 3: in the United States of America. Even though we have

831
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 3: a lot of problems and we're possibly losing our democracy

832
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: in our country right now, it is still far better

833
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 3: than the places that these people are coming from, and

834
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 3: we should be thankful for that and just figure out

835
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 3: a way to protect ourselves as first as we can,

836
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 3: you know.

837
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think I think that's Yeah, it's a

838
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: good place to end. Like, we should be grateful that

839
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: for now we live in a much more stable place

840
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: and that we were able to we have the resources

841
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: to welcome people, and we do the benefit to our

842
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: communities when we.

843
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: Have from us. Yeah, we need people right now.

844
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: So, yeah, people forever bitching about not being able to

845
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: find people to work and also at the same time

846
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: toning away people who would love. You know, every migrant

847
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: I meet in the cumber message me on WhatsApps saying, Hey,

848
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 2: struggling to find work because they don't get work authorization. Right,

849
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: there are a lot of jobs that you're doing, and

850
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: a lot of people who want to do them, and

851
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: but we're so wrapped up in our bigger trendenophobia that

852
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: we won't let them do it right.

853
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 3: We've made it as difficult for them as we absolutely

854
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 3: positively can.

855
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jen, thank you for joining us. Is there any

856
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 2: way that people can like follow you online? You've done

857
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: a really good job at sort of cracking some of

858
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: the board patrols nonsense recently. So where can people find that?

859
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 3: They can find it on jin the j E N

860
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 3: N Budd dot com.

861
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 2: Great, that's here, It's a good resource. And well, thank

862
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: you so much.

863
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: Jen.

864
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: We really appreciate your time.

865
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 3: I appreciate you to thank you.

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Speaker 2: Jeerz Mite.

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Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 1: you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated

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Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.