1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As we go to air, 2 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: the National Guard has been called in in the so 3 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: called Kenosha shooting case. Kyle Rittenhouse, then seventeen years old, 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: guns down three people, leaving two dead. Seems like everybody 5 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: there that night in the middle of BLM protests had 6 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: a cell phone. So there's plenty video footage and what 7 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: it shows is this young man carrying a semi automatic 8 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: weapon was actually chased. So how can a teen vigilante 9 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: who goes in loaded for bear, armed to the hilt 10 00:00:54,360 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: end up claiming self defense? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 11 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to what we 12 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: have learned of that night. Listen to this. Yeah, that's 13 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: Aunt two for man. Well we got a good beggy. 14 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: You shot I need to shot up a right? Heard 15 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: shot up? All right? He shot about it? You we're 16 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: hearing sound that was provided by Brendan Grudenschwager via storyfold 17 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: dot com. That is, as we say, nat sound, natural 18 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: sound happening at that moment, and the gunshots you heard 19 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: that was nobody firing into the air that resulted in death. 20 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean, see, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you 21 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation and Series 22 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: M eleven. We are, of course covering the trial as 23 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: it is happening of tyle Rittenhouse. So the defense, self defense, 24 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: the video. The jury will have it, and I'm sure 25 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: they will do what I have done, play it over 26 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: and over in slow motion to try to understand what 27 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: happened that night with me at All Star panel to 28 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now. First of all, 29 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of LA Troy Slayton, 30 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: Karen Start, renowned New York psychologists joining us from Manhattan. 31 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: Dan Corcenttito, former Police of Chief, former Sheriff, US Homeland 32 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: Security Senior Advisory Board now PI at Dan Corsentino dot com. 33 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: Renowned medical examiner joining us from Madison Heights, doctor William Moroney, 34 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: author of American Narcan Spencer Course and founder President Course 35 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: in Security. But first to Alexis Terreschuck Crime Online dot 36 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: com investigative reporter, thank you for being with us. Alexis, 37 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: did court start on time? Because I predict to last 38 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: night then'd be late. As of right now it has 39 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: not started. That live dream is showing the feal of 40 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: the State of Wisconsince of doubts okay. And another thing 41 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: on that troice Slaton, that doesn't mean anybody is a laggard. 42 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: It's not the judge's fault. It's neither of the party's 43 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: fault that we know of. Wasn't a while you have 44 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: a jurar trickle in late. They couldn't catch the bus there, 45 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: couldn't drop their child off quickly enough and drop off 46 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: at school. For whatever reason, everything has got to be 47 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: primed and ready. So you always see delays, especially just 48 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: before closing arguments. Choice Slaton, because the judge following closing 49 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: arguments well struct the jury all the law by which 50 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: they are to judge this case. For instance, will it 51 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: just be a flat out murder charge or will the 52 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: defense agree to voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide. You 53 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: just go down the list. My point is choice lightness. 54 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: Nobody's fault that they're starting late. That's true, Nancy. There's 55 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: a million reasons why the trial would not start exactly 56 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: on time. All the best intentions doesn't mean that all 57 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: the things line up at the right moment. But what's 58 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: really important here what Judge Schroeder is going to be doing, 59 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: like him instructing the jury on the elements of both 60 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: the crime and the defenses. Rittenhouse's defense of self defense 61 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: requires that the jury finds certain elements that he was 62 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: in fear for his life and that the action that 63 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: he took shooting these people was necessar serry to protect 64 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: life or limb fear of immediate damage, immediately harm, immediate harm. 65 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: It has to be real fear and has to be immediate, 66 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 1: and has to be of serious bodily injury or death. 67 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: And nancy, it's also that he can't have provoked it. 68 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: There was a lot of argument on Friday about whether 69 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 1: or not the judge should instruct the jury on provocation, 70 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: and the prosecutors won that, and Judge Schroeder will be 71 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: instructing the jurors that if Kyle Rittenhouse provoked the attack 72 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: on himself, if he was an aggressor in any way, 73 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: if he was pointing the gun at people causing them 74 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: to attack him, then he loses the self defense argument. 75 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: You're right, now, self defense under our law is a 76 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: complete defense. If a juror believes that he acted in 77 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: self defense when he shot three people, then he will 78 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: walk Scott free. That's a mighty tall order. Self defense 79 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: once probably self defense twice, maybe self defense three times. 80 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: Okay to you, Spencer Course, and let's talk about why 81 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: a teen is out on the street alone with this 82 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: kind of weapon. Tell me about the weapon, Spencer Course 83 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: and founder, President Course and Security Group, Nancy. Thank you. 84 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: The weapon is identified as a Smith and Wesson MNP fifteen, 85 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: which is a R fifteen styled semi automatic rifle. It 86 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: has a thirty round magazine, which is the magazine that 87 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: Kyle Writtenhouse had loaded into the weapon on the night 88 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: in question. And semi automatic, of course, means that one 89 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: bullet is fired for every pull of the trigger. Now 90 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: that's important, and I'm going to go back to you, 91 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, because murder one requires malice, forethought, premeditation. But 92 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: under the law, premeditation does not require a very prolonged 93 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: period of thinking, such as me poisoning you every single 94 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: morning when you drive through Starbucks till you just kill 95 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: over dead. Premeditation give me formed in the blink of 96 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: an eye, the twinkling of a moment, the time it 97 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: takes you to raise the gun and pull the trigger. 98 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: That is enough time under the law to think about 99 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: what you're doing, much less fire repeatedly. And what you're 100 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: hearing from Spencer Coursen is with this particular gun an 101 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: AAR fifteen type weapon, it looks like a machine gun. 102 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: That's what it looks like. You have to pull the 103 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: trigger for each shot. In other words, that is time 104 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: for him to form premeditation under the law, Troy. Yes, 105 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: but the important word that you said was malice, and 106 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: that's what it's going to come down to for the jury. 107 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: Was he malicious? Was he trying to kill people? Was 108 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: he doing this because of a depraved mind? Was he 109 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: doing it with evil intent? Or what we call in 110 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: the law men's ray. You have this, this desire to 111 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: do kill, and now that are going to be before 112 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: you disseminate that isn't it true? Trying to answer with 113 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: the yes no. Isn't it true that the law presumes 114 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: you intend the natural consequence of your act. For instance, 115 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: if I were to hold up a piece of fine 116 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: china and throw it to a cement floor, the law 117 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: would presume I mean to break it. Do you agree 118 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: with that? Yes? Yes? Now, and so if you can 119 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: point a gun, kinds Mike, if you point a gun 120 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: and pull the trigger, the law presumes that you mean 121 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: to shoot the person. This is just about self defense. 122 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: And then what do you do you mean to do 123 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: the act? Do you mean to point the gun and 124 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: pull the trigger. The law presumes you intend the consequence 125 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: of your act. So all we're looking at is does 126 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: he intend to point the gun and pull the trigger 127 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: at someone? The only defense here is self defense. It's 128 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: all he's got going for him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, 129 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: I want to talk about what we see on the video, 130 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: Alexis to Roschuk, because we don't have to tell the 131 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: jury what happened, they can see it on video. Let's 132 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: start with victim number one chronologically, Joseph Rosenbaum. What I 133 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: saw in the video, alexis FBI video eighty five feet 134 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: up in the air, grainy, but I can figure it out. 135 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: Is I see Rosenbaum chase rittenhouse across the parking lot. 136 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: A witness earlier says, alexis that Rosenbaum says, if I 137 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: get one of you guys talking about the guys there 138 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: to protect the business, says, if I get one of 139 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: you guys alone, I'm gonna f and kill you. So 140 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: we already know he his intent, and then he chases 141 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: written house across a parks a lot. Tell me about 142 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: that video. So he does chase written House across the 143 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: parking lot and then he kind of stopped, but he 144 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: throws something at Rittenhouse and you don't know what it 145 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: is really because it started his nighttime. Well what it 146 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: ended up being in it's a plastic bag. So Rittenhouse 147 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: then turns around because the plastic bags thrown at him, 148 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,239 Speaker 1: turns around. Then he comes close to him. Rosenboum comes 149 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: up to him, in fact, so close that his hand 150 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: is on the barrel of the rifle. This is not 151 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: a small handgun that Kyle Rittenhouse was hearing. This is 152 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: the gun that he was illegally, not supposed to have, legally, 153 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: not supposed have. He had it illegally, and he is 154 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: holding it and Rosenbaum is holding the front of it, 155 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: and this perhaps maybe he'd takes away, get it away 156 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: from his face. And written House opens fire on him, 157 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: shooting him four times. He chased him across a parking lot. 158 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: Dan Corcentino for Police Chief Fromer Sheriff us Homo Security 159 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: Senior Advisory Board. Now, PI, what about that look When 160 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: I first heard this story and I hear one Sheeter 161 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: goes the twenty five miles at least from his home 162 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: in Antioch, Indiana to Kenosha to protect businesses with an 163 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: r I'm n o. He goets down three people, he's 164 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: going to jail. But when I see the video, Dan Corcentti, 165 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: you know it's not like that. The video suggests very 166 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: strongly that there is an environment that's being created by 167 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: both individuals Rosenbaum and Huber in regards to an imminent 168 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: threat to Ritten House, and then appears also the one 169 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: of the questions becomes, at least for the defense, is 170 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: the speed of the decisions of Written House when he 171 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: was firing the weapon, when he pulled the figure numerous 172 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: time or actullently pulled the figure four times, I believe 173 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: at that in this situation. So yes, there is a 174 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: question about an amment danger. There's a question about perception, 175 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: and I think that this case is slowly going to 176 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: be decided on self with these absolutely guys. I want 177 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: you to take a listen to this. It's our cut eleven. 178 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: This is Hilary miss Wi s N twelve. Listen. Thirty 179 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: six year old Joseph Rosenbaum, who prosecutors say was unarmed, 180 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: was the first man shot by Rittenhouse, seen here in 181 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: video edited and released by Rittenhouse's defense team. Rosenbaum from 182 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: Texas was living in Kenosha. Friends called him Jojo. He 183 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: had a daughter and fiance. As Rittenhouse took off down 184 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: Sheridan Rode. Rittenhouse falls to the ground, shoots and misses 185 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: one man. Then Anthony Hubert uses his skateboard and tries 186 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: to take Rittenhouse's gun. He ran up on somebody with 187 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: an assault rafle dent nothing like he was just going 188 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: to tackle. Due to the ground, Rittenhouse fired, killing twenty 189 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: six year old Huber, who also lived in Kenosha. He 190 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: already killed someone. He killed someone already and then he 191 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: killed my My wife has ribbed him away like after Hubert. 192 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: Gage Grosscroitz of West Dallas in the crowd. As a 193 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: medic approaches written House, who is still on the ground, 194 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: Grosscroitz is armed with a handgun. House shoots him in 195 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: the arm. He was the lone survivor, a lone survivor, 196 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: a lone survivor that we learned originally left out the 197 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: factory police that he the victim. The shooting victim pointed 198 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: a gun at Ritten House. I mean, you know, bottom line, 199 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: if we're having this much trouble. I don't see any 200 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: way a jury is going to be unanimous in a verdict. 201 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: To doctor William Moroney, Doctor Moroney, thank you for being 202 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: with us. Could you explain the injury to the first victim? Chronologically, 203 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: Joe if Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum is the guy, and we see 204 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: this on the FBI video, the aerial drone footage. It 205 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: looks as if doctor Moroney, correct me if I'm wrong, 206 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: Alexa's just jump in. It looks as if Rittenhouse is 207 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: walking by and he has some kind of verbal interaction 208 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: with Rosenbaum. Rittenhouse takes off across the parking lot. Rosenbaum 209 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: chases him, and from what we understand, written House, here's 210 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: a good in the distance. He turns around. He then 211 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: sees Rosenbaum lunge at him and he shoots. Tell me 212 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: about the injuries. How did Rosenbaum get shot in the back. 213 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: The first and most important shot is his hands were 214 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: on the barrel. He took a bullet through his hand. 215 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: It went into the pavement, ricochet up and went into 216 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: his side. The second shot that destabilized his stance when 217 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: from the gun into his hip and groin area and 218 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: shattered his helvets. He spins around because he lost his balance, 219 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: and his back comes forward as he goes down, and 220 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: that is when Rittenhouse pulls the trigger again, and the 221 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: third shot grazes his head, takes off a little skin. 222 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: But that fourth shot, as Rosenbaum continues to spin around, 223 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: goes into his back. It's approximately at the lower middle 224 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: half of his scapula, right that that shoulder blade bone. 225 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: That's how high it is. And it's said to go 226 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: through and nick some lungs and nick some liver. But 227 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: the problem is the speed, the power, the energy of 228 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: that bullet is not going to just make a hole. 229 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: It does something called cavitation. Cavitation is the energy shockwave, 230 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: and in feet per second, its speed was three thousand, 231 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty feet per second. If you do 232 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: the math and you translate that in miles per hour, 233 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: which we understand better than feet per second for energy, 234 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: that's the distance from Atlanta to Vegas. That's two thousand, 235 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: two hundred miles per hour. You take all that energy 236 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: to travel from Atlanta to Vegas in one hour and 237 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: compress it into a tenth of a second. That's why 238 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: his lungs obliterated on that fourth shot. He didn't shoot 239 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: a man on the ground in the back. The two 240 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of them were in a position whereas the first shot 241 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: in the hip destabilized Rosenbaum, and he spun around because 242 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: he was falling from the shot that shattered his pelvis. 243 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: And that final shot was the fatal shot. Sometimes they 244 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: call it a kill shot. That kill shot was not 245 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: a direct shot to a man running away. It was 246 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: a man spinning into him. That's how that happened. You know, 247 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: doctor Moroney, you have a way of explaining things that 248 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: just stops everything, and your words are so powerful. And 249 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about Rosenbaum dying like that out in a 250 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: parking lot between some cars, and my heart just breaks 251 00:17:49,840 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: to think of that. Time Stories with Nancy Grace to you, 252 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: Karen Stark. The jury's got to grapple with what ro Sinbaum, 253 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: what Huber went through. They've got to reconcile that with 254 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: the fact that both of them were chasing rittenhouse. It's 255 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: not easy. When I hear Moroney explaining how Rosenbaum died, 256 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: I want right now is to go under the jail. 257 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: But then the video shows me Rosenbaum said, I'm gonna 258 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: f and kill you if I get you alone and 259 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: then chases him. I mean, that's why juries are always 260 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: so torn up. They don't want to talk to anybody 261 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: when they leave that court house. They just want to 262 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: go home. This is why this is a particularly confusing case. 263 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: If you ask me, Nancy, it's just so. It's just 264 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: what with all kinds of perception, and when I think 265 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: about it, and I can't come up with a right 266 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: or wrong, but one in the world was he doing 267 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: kyl written haas, what's that's done? Okay, well, say you're 268 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: falling in a trap, Karen. Start all the years I've 269 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: known you, and I think you're smarter than that, you're 270 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: fault Well, okay, actually no, because that is what every 271 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 1: single person says that I asked, what do you think 272 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: about writtenhouse? Well, it should have been out there. Well, 273 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: that's true, But the issue is is he guilty or 274 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: was it self defense? We all agree you shouldn't have 275 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: been there, Karen. Of course you shouldn't have been there, Nancy. 276 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: But that's that's why everybody keeps bringing it up, because 277 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: it seems like provocation. It seems like you're asking for 278 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: something to happen, that you're there to protect, you saying 279 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: you're protecting, but you're doing well. Wait wait wait, wait, wait, 280 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: hold on, Alexis Terress shut Jackie, New York Studio. I 281 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: just got notice that they may have dropped the provocation instruction, 282 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: and if that is true, that is a whole game changer. 283 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: Back to you, Troy Slaton, Elections jump in whenever you 284 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: find that out. For me, Troy, that's a big deal. 285 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: Now try to talk like a regular person, no Latin phrases, 286 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: and to explain why this is going to be a 287 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: big deal. It's a big deal, Nancy, because it's really 288 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: the prosecution's only avenue to try and convince the jury 289 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: during their two and a half hour opportunity to speak 290 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: to the jurors directly about the state of the evidence 291 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: and and tell them why self defense doesn't apply. No legalities. 292 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: Just correct me if I'm wrong, All right. Kyle Writtenhouse 293 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: goes down three people in the middle of a BLM protest. 294 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: He claims he's there to protect businesses and be a medic, 295 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: but somehow he's running around with an ar Simi on 296 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: his on his back. Okay, these people run after him. Really, 297 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: all three of them come after the answer. Yes, the 298 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: state has withdrawn the request for the provocation. Wow, I'm shocked. Okay, 299 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: back to what we were saying, that self defense, whether 300 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: we like it or not, Whether we think he should 301 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: have been there or shouldn't have been there, that doesn't matter. 302 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: What matters is was he the aggressor when he shot 303 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: the victims or were they the aggressor? Was he acting 304 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: in self defense? Now? Provocation, as Roye Slayton correctly said, 305 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: is if Writtenhouse provoked them into chasing him, then you'll 306 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: lose your self defense. That's no longer really a defense, right. 307 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: An easy way to think of it, Nancy, is you 308 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: can't claim that you're defending yourself if you start a fight, 309 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,959 Speaker 1: you can exactly light or get somebody to attack you. 310 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: Let's say even in a bar fight. You can't get 311 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: somebody to attack you and then beat them up, kill 312 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: them and claiming self defense. Why would they withdraw that, 313 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: Troy Well, I guess it means that they wanted to 314 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: keep some sort of legitimacy with the jury. They felt 315 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: maybe they were honest and moral prosecutors, and they felt 316 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: that they didn't meet the elements for provocation. Maybe they 317 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: felt that they just couldn't prove it. Okay, yeah, whatever 318 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: bombshell like this, try shuck. I know we're talking inside 319 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: baseball here, but that is a huge factor and where 320 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: this case is going to go. And I mean, let 321 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: me just do a straw vote right now. Who on 322 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: this panel and in this control in the studio can 323 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: tell me you have a verdict Medeia. Medeia says he's guilty, Okay, 324 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: Kara Hung, Jackie Hung, Troy, I think it's going to 325 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: be a not guilty. How would you vote? That's the question. 326 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: I would vote, not guilty, share not only on that, 327 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: just the misdemeanor charge of possession. Okay, Mike again, Karen, 328 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: start vote quickly. Hung. Okay, so you're Hung Corsantino, not guilty. 329 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: That's how you would vote, right, That's how I would vote. Moroni, 330 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: I say not guilty, and I was born and raised 331 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: in Kenosha. He's gonna walk on this. But you're saying 332 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: not guilty, right, I don't care what you think. The 333 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: jury's Nick, Okay, Courson not guilty, alexis guilty. Okay, I'm sorry, 334 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: but you and media have just hung the jury. Okay, 335 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: because I got two nights, I've got two guilties and wait, 336 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: Alexis say not guilty or guilty? Okay, yeah, the two 337 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: of you. Okay, you just hung the jury. My point is, 338 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: if people are wavering, and this is the law, the 339 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: judge will say this to the jury, look him in 340 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: the eyes of say if your mind is wavering, if 341 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: you have uncertainty, then you must acquit. Why because it's 342 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: a stay burden to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. 343 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: If you want him to go to yell because he 344 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: was in the wrong place, No, you have to believe 345 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: that he shot these three people. And I want you 346 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: to hear this sound. Take a listen to our cut fourteen. 347 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: This is Nancy Champ with CBS. Rittenhouse then shot and 348 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: killed another man, Anthony Hubert, after he says Hubert hit 349 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: him in the head. He grabs my gun and I 350 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: can feel it pulling away from me and this I 351 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: can feel the strap starting to come off my body. 352 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: And what do you do? Then? I fire one shot. 353 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: At that point, Rittenhouse shot a third man, Gage Grosscroatez, 354 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: who was standing over him with a gun in his hand. 355 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: Why were you trying to get to the police, Because 356 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: I didn't do anything wrong. I defended myself on cross examination, 357 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: the prosecutor tried to pet Rittenhouse as an armed threat. 358 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: Mister Rittenhouse, you're telling us that you felt like you 359 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: were about to die, right, Yes, But when you point 360 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: the gun at someone else, that's going to make them 361 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: feel like they're about to die. Right, that's what you 362 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: wanted him to feel. No, I also want you to 363 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: hear our seventeen, This says Alexis Petrez. ABCG. May take 364 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: a listen to this. Written House, also telling the jury 365 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: that Rosenbum threatened him before the shooting. He screamed, if 366 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: I catch any of you alone, I'm going to kill you. 367 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: Through testimony, the defense painting a picture of a young 368 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: man who had been cleaning graffiti and wanted to offer 369 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: medical help to those injured during the protests that followed 370 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: the police shooting of Jacob Blake. But in cross examination, 371 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: the prosecutor pressing Rittenhouse on his decision to go to 372 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: Kenosha in the first place and why he showed up 373 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: within a R fifteen? Why do you need the gun 374 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: when you go out there? I need the gun because 375 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: if I had to protect myself because somebody attacked me, 376 00:25:52,800 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: and playing this video in court attempting to dismantle Rittenhouse's 377 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: argument that he was in Kenosha that night to offer 378 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: medical help. You're not a certify the MT. You're not 379 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: an EMT of any kind. You weren't on that night, correct, Yes, 380 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: so you lied to him? Correct? I told him I was. 381 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: I told him I was an EMT, but I wasn't. 382 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: It's my understanding, Alexis ters Shuck that Rittenhouse had volunteered 383 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: with EMGs before, and he had a medical pack with 384 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: him when he went to Kenosha that he did not use. 385 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: When he shot somebody, he didn't provide assistance. And in fact, 386 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: somebody asked him to call nine one. They thought he 387 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: was calling nine one one, but instead he called his 388 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: friends and then went on to shoot and kill another 389 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: person and shoot another. Pertion Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 390 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, Alexis es Schuck. Have 391 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: you seen the videos? Yeah? Okay, I've got you on 392 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: a cross right now, So try to limit your answers 393 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: to yes. No, Alexis in the shooting of ro Sinbaum 394 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Rosenbaum, age thirty six, did Rosenbaum chase Rittenhouse across 395 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: a parking lot? I saw them both go across the 396 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: parking lot. Oh okay, so who was in front running? Right? 397 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: What do you mean in front? Who was ahead? Who 398 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: was behind who? When you say they're running across the 399 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: parking lot, they could be jogging together for all I know. 400 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: But that's not what the video depicts. Why can't you 401 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: just be honest about what you saw in the video 402 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: because Rosenbaum is behind him, because he's chasing him, it 403 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: cannot be an exact second there. It's never an exact second. 404 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: If a person shoots their husband because there's been twenty 405 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: five years of abuse, you have to take that into consideration. 406 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: So you have to take this entire situation into consideration. 407 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: It cannot just be one second to be that this 408 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: teenager illegally obtained a gun and came to a protest 409 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: and was allegedly and says he was defending an autobody shop. 410 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: He wasn't at the autobody shop anymore. Rosenbaum wasn't breaking 411 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: into the autobody shop. Kyle Rittenhouse the social media talked 412 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: about how he wanted to shoot shoplifters, and again I 413 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: ask you if you can be honest and answer this. 414 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,719 Speaker 1: If you can't, I understand you've argued yourself into a corner, 415 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: alexis terress Chuck, who is chasing who? In the parking lot? 416 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: Rosenbaum is going after a person with a gun in 417 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: the video? Do you know who that person is? Kyle Rittenhouse, Okay, 418 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: it was illegally holding a gun, right? You know? That 419 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: goes to the old question Spencer Courson. So a hooker 420 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: goes in a bar and she gets raped? Can a 421 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: hooker be raped? Ken eighteen vigilante? Who's got a gun? 422 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: Fire and self defense? Are they mutually exclusive? Is it 423 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: possible that they can both be true? Because I have 424 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: prosecuted cases for hookers they got raped before and got 425 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: a conviction. Because it doesn't matter who you are or 426 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: where you came from. What matters is the time of 427 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: the incident. Lady justice is blind, whether everybody wants to 428 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: remember this or not. She doesn't care who you are. 429 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: She doesn't care if you're black or white, or you're 430 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: some snot teen. Where you're at where you shouldn't be, 431 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: and you've got a gun you shouldn't have when you're 432 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: getting chased across the park league, you know what Alexa's 433 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: to rush? Chuck? Didn't I ask you? Off camera? If 434 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: somebody chased you across the parking lot with your son 435 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: and you had a gun and they lunged at you, 436 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: would you shoot them? And what was your answer? Yes? 437 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: Oh right, but that was just for you and your son, 438 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: not for Kyle in house. Right, you have to take 439 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: the whole thing into the picture. Why why would I 440 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: have a gun? Why would somebody chasing me across the 441 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: parking lot with my child? Why did I take? What 442 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: is that spencer jumping in? It's it's it's spencer, Nancy. 443 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: If I could be in with a quick analogy that 444 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: I think. Well. So I have a friend who this 445 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: weekend was renovating his kitchen. Right, he gets this refrigerator delivered. 446 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: It doesn't fit, so he has to go to home 447 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: depot to get to get a tool that he needs 448 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: to get at the slide in. While he's at home depot, 449 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: his son goes into the garage, climbs up on the workbench, 450 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: gets into the toolbox, pulls out a hammer, goes into 451 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: the kitchen and starts feeding the living daylights out of 452 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: the refrigerator, all but loving it, all but ruining it. 453 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: Dad comes home, sees the refrigerator, goes what's going on. 454 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: The kid with a smile on his face goes, Daddy, 455 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: I help fix fridge. That's the story of Kyle Rittenhouse. 456 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: A kid who wanted to help, got his hands on 457 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: something he shouldn't and being ingorant of his own ability 458 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: and having an improperly framed expectation of how the real 459 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: world works, went out to save lives but ultimately wound 460 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: up doing more harm than good. How is the medic 461 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: with hearing an assault rifle? Do our EMTs have assault 462 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: rifles when they go out to save lives? No? But 463 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: the EMT who got shot the third time had a 464 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: gun because he saw what he thought was an active Okay, 465 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: is what you're doing is you're holding it against Writtenhouse 466 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: because he has a gun. Now do I support gun control? 467 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: Actually yes I do. I am a gun violence victim. 468 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: But in our country, you can have a gun, including 469 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: that gun, and he was the fact that he was 470 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: under eighteen, you well can't. You actually can't. He couldn't 471 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: actually legally have that gun, which is why his friend 472 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: bought it for him. As I was trying to say 473 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: before I was so ridely interrupted. At his age, he 474 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: should not have had the gun. That is illegal. But 475 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: you can't treat him differently because he's in that location. 476 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: What about all the other people that were there that 477 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: night that should have been at home or should not 478 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: have been creating mayhem? What about the people that were 479 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: peacefully protesting. Are they in the wrong place at the 480 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: wrong time. I mean, under your scenario, we should all 481 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: stay at home under the bed. That's the only way you, 482 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: alexis terrestio won't convict us. That's the reality of your reasoning. 483 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: You got to take your reason and follow it through 484 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: to a legal conclusion. And your conclusion is he's in 485 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: the wrong place. He was carrying a gun, so he's guilty. 486 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: That is not how the law works. I want you 487 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: to take a listen to what we know about what 488 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: was happening on the scene that night. Take a listen 489 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: to Laura Schweitzer w k R n our Cut twelve. 490 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: This is Rittenhouse on the stand. Listen Kyle Rittenhouse wreaking 491 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: down on the stand as he began testifying in front 492 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: of a courtroom in Wisconsin this morning. Rittenhouse is accused 493 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: of fatally shooting two people and wounding another during a 494 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: police brutality protesting Kenosha in August of twenty twenty, he 495 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: told the courtroom he went to Kenosha to quote, provide 496 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: first aid after looting and vandalism, broke out, bringing along 497 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: his medical supplies and AAR style semi automatic rifle, But 498 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: when asked about what happened during the protest, he broke 499 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: down people. On the other hand, let's think about what 500 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: Alexis arrest check is saying. I heard one comparison that 501 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: the hunter goes into the forest with a high powered weapon, 502 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: bear charges him, and he shoots him and says I 503 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: had to You know, he charged me, So what did 504 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: he think was going to happen when he went in there? 505 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: To you, choice, Layton, how do you deal with that 506 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: defense Alexis has a leg to stand on. To a 507 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: normal lay person, that would make sense. But under the law, 508 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: a person has a right to defend themselves and even 509 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: to use deadly force if deadly force is being used 510 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: against them. So even though he may have been in 511 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: the wrong place, even though we all agree that he 512 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: should have been at home and that he shouldn't have 513 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: been out there if somebody was trying to kill him, 514 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: he has the right to defend himself, say Nancy, I 515 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: could interject for a second. This is coursing to you 516 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: know ahead, you know one of the things. This is 517 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: almost a Kodak moment for the jury to take a 518 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: look at the instant this situation was happening. We can 519 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: recreate very easily the testimony of Frank Andrew Hernandez that 520 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: clearly bifurcates the behavior of written Health versus the behavior Rosenbaum, 521 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: and we'll led up to it. But what really counts 522 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: is in that three seconds to five seconds, what was 523 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: taking place and the fear factor that was in Written 524 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: House's mind, and that I think is going to be 525 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: the tipping point for the jury. Nancy. I think part 526 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: of the title of What's happening and what keeps happening 527 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: in this case is there's a disconnect between the law, 528 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: which is exactly what was said, what was going on 529 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: in that very moment, right, and the psychological aspect that 530 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: Electris was bringing up the whole context of what was 531 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: he doing with the gun? What was happening there? Was 532 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: he ready to be shooting somebody? But I think it 533 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: really does come down to that very moment of was 534 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: he really believing he was defending himself or was he 535 00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: just trigger happy and I think it just gets very convoluted. Okay, 536 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: I wait a minute, Karen Stark, I mean when you 537 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: say he's trigger happy or was he defending himself? Are 538 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: both true? We know he was a gun officionado, we 539 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: know that he did target practice, we know he wanted 540 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: this gun. That does not preclude a self defense argument. 541 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: And you know what, I took a lot of heat 542 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: for not coming down on one side or the other. 543 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: But I am not going to wore out Lady Justice 544 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: and give in to one argument or the other if 545 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: it's unclear, if it's unclear that as a burden of 546 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: state has not carried. Look, I'm a prosecutor, tried and true, 547 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: but if the state has not carried its burden, I 548 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: would not sacrifice a true verdict in order to just 549 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,720 Speaker 1: come up with a decision. I hear Alexis Terreschuk, I 550 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: hear what everybody is saying. I hear what Choice Laten 551 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: is saying. And the reality is it's muddy water. It 552 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 1: is not clear. And that is why, as much as 553 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: I hate it, I predict we will have a hung jury. 554 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: We will soon be on a verdict. Watch we wait, 555 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: as just as some falls Nancy Grace crime Story, signing 556 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: off good bye friend,