WEBVTT - Is Taylor Swift bigger than Michael Jackson? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:04.160 Yeah, I'm manny I noh, and welcome to No such Thing, 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.160 the show where we set all our dumb arguments and 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.320 yours by actually doing the research. This week we find 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:11.559 out how popular Boring Barbie actually is. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:23.040 There's no no such thing, no such thing such, thank such, 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.920 thank touch, thank. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:29.880 So. 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.680 We're talking about Taylor Swift mainly. How did she capture 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.080 our collective attention so completely her new album It's sold 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:38.919 two point seven million copies in one day. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:39.680 Oh my god. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.000 This is something we've talked about a while because you 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.000 see big albums like this come out not only from her, 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.239 about anyone else, and it'll be like, this song just 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:47.519 broke this amazing record. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.480 This is the most popular song ever of all time. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:52.080 And it never really makes sense. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.080 It's always like something like, yeah, a lot of people 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.600 listen to the Weekend Blinding Lights to me is not 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:57.760 the most popular song. 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:58.920 Ever, right, even though it is. 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.480 Even though people listen to Yeah, people listen to him. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:03.760 I don't think it's like, no one listens to that guy. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.119 And we're curious, in the grand scheme of things, how 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.000 popular is a Taylor Swift compared to someone from the past, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:15.360 like the Beatles or Michael Jackson. But before we get 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.520 into that, Okay, what everyone wants to know is what 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:23.600 do we think about Taylor Swift US three mid thirties 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.160 guys think so, you know, we'll get to that right 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:28.720 in the interest, so people don't even need to listen 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:29.200 to the rest of this. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:31.280 So what are your experiences with her? 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.080 Well, let me start by saying, I genuinely have not 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.520 listened to much of her music, like I do. Remember 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.880 when I was in high school. You know, I'm on 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.720 the bleachers. What's as a song you Belong with Me? 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:43.560 You Belong with Me? And I thought that was really 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.319 catchy at the time. Fast forward, however, many years, like 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.480 I really haven't listened to much of it. I did 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.360 listen to this one, and my initial reaction was that, 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:54.600 you know, a lot of it sounded really well produced. 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.440 It's kind of pleasant to listen to in that way. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.720 I am not unique in my reaction to like the lyrics. 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.360 I'll say, like, some of those were kind of like, 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:10.200 kind of mind bogglingly bad, but not so much worse 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.959 than like your average top forty pop fair. 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:15.520 I'm not as swifty by any stretching. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.359 Imagine it's okay if you are, but I think I'm 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.600 out right now. Amongst the three of us, I'm definitely 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:22.680 the most in tune with. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.079 You've at least heard. Yeah, you keep up on mainstream 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:27.639 popular music. 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.320 Yeah yeah, I usually give all the new albums at 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.560 least one listen through. You know, I dated a Swifty 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.760 for a while, so like it was at a certain 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:38.760 point my Apple Music would try to wreck you know, 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.840 you know, auto play tailor car Yeah, and. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:43.160 I had to tell it to stop doing that. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.200 Swifty as in by Osmosis. 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:45.720 Yeah. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:51.240 But my thoughts on this album, Okay, when we talk 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.120 about Taylor Swift, I'm a reputation fan. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.680 Okay, I listened to that one. That was I think 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.160 the last album I listened to before this one. 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:08.440 My favorite Endgame the Future in Edge, Big d Bars. 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:13.280 The linkup was crazy incredible, So you know, I hope 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:14.280 we get back to their. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.840 This album compared to reputation. 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:19.639 Not no, no, no no, this doesn't hold up to 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.799 reputation for me. Okay, Yeah, people are talking a lot 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.000 about the lyrics. I don't have much room to talk. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.600 Some of my favorite artists have the most cringey lyrics. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.000 I think she gets a little bit picked on I 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.920 think because of the identity she's built around being a 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:34.680 song That's what I. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:35.080 Was going to say. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.960 I think the fandom hurts her in this case because 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.600 they they try to make sure she's built up to 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.440 be so highly esteemed as a songwriter and a lyricist 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.920 and all this, so that way when anything is not great, 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:50.280 like we wouldn't be this critical of Sabrina Carpenter or someone, yeah, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.520 just because we don't think of her that way, because 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.000 people don't put her on that pedestal. 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:56.640 Yeah, I'm not upset at me, espresso, Do I know 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.920 what the fuck that means? That's fun, I mean whatever, 0:03:59.080 --> 0:03:59.680 But yes. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.200 I do feel like too, Taylor's doing this thing where 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.080 she's like talking about the Internet on this album, right, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.520 and I feel like once you get a certain level 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.720 of a rich you're just like out of touch with 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:11.720 the Internet in a way. But I do feel like 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:13.800 there is a sort of like she's singing about stuff 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:15.040 that feels like it's like. 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.640 Not ten years old, close to it, you know. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.800 Yeah, well like yeah girl Battle Boston. 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:22.280 Yeah, so yeah. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.720 I listened to the album and then I was surprised 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.120 by the reaction being so negative. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.799 It seems just because it to my ears. 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:33.680 And this is the thing where it's like, if you're 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.680 really in this world, you're going to notice the differences 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:39.120 versus like I pop into some pop albums, not tailors 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.200 fifth albums. So it's like, to me, this doesn't sound 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.599 so dramatically different. But if I was like ahead, yeah, 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:46.240 I'd be able to be like, Okay, this is a 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.960 clear you know, clearly worse than before or clearly different 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.320 in this way. To me, it's not so dramatically different 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.720 than even like the really old stuff, yeah, sonically or lyrically. Yeah, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:01.600 So you're saying that the songwriting is is bad, but Whires, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:03.720 everyone's surprised. It's always kind of like this. I'm not 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.880 even saying it's bad even, but it sounds not so 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:06.840 dramatically different. 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:08.320 Yeah, it sounds about because I. 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.720 Listened to the album a few times now and it 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:12.800 kind of grew on me certain parts, certain songs. I 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.840 was like, Okay, there's actually at least a really good 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:15.400 piece here. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.839 Yeah. A lot of people were posting albums that other 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:25.080 female artists did at age thirty five versus a show girl. Yeah, 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.799 and it was like Beyonce Lemonade and the Joni Mitchell 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.520 album I can't remember. Yeah, there's like so many examples 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.920 of like kind of more mature, iconic mature music. 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.240 Yeah. Yeah, that was listening to Life of a show Girl. 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.960 There was parts where it was like, this sounds like 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.640 music for babies, And I mean that kind of respectfully. 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:50.520 You got a private Tom, It's fun. 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.919 I actually think I like the album more than you guys, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.360 But some of some music, when I'm listening to the lyrics, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.400 I'm like, this just sounds like something for a little 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:00.680 kid to dance singing to. 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.000 The sounds of it are just like, so. 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.240 Let's pop please in general, And to. 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.599 Be fair, it's like probably kind of the goal, like, yeah, 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:09.840 it's a lot of. 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.840 A bad thing. Yes, it's not very Uh there's not 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.039 much of an edge to it. Yeah, no, you know, 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:15.680 by design. 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.360 Yeah. I think I see the harsh reaction in two 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.120 different ways. One is there's got to be some kind 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.240 of a fatigue. I think that's kind of what you 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.039 were talking about, where like the album doesn't really sound 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.279 that much different than the previous ones, and yet there's 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:28.880 a backlash. 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.200 There's probably a little fatigue there. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.320 She kind of has to drink problem where she Na 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.760 always has to be making music always needs to be 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:36.400 in spotlight. I was like, it'd be interesting if she 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.560 just like dropped two songs, yeah, and not an album, 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:40.960 But she doesn't really do that. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:49.640 So let's move on to kind of our question that 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.760 we're tackling. Do you guys think she is bigger than 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:53.560 Michael Jackson? 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.960 What I would say is that Taylor Swift might be 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.800 more famous in that more people know who she is today, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.080 but Michael Jackson. But Michael Jackson is a bigger. 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.400 Completed No, No, I think it's flipped. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.559 I think I think she might well have technically sold 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.000 more records, yes, but I think Michael Jackson is way 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.200 more famous, especially if we're not talking about just America 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:14.760 like worldwide. 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:16.680 You know what I mean, I forgot about you know 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.280 who Michael Jackson is. You know it's and like there's 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.240 symbols of him that you could show, like. 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:22.960 Kids are wearing Michael Jackson. 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.440 Taylor Swift by face, a lot of people would recognize her, 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:27.400 but there's not like there's not like the red jacket, 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.280 like yeah, there's nothing like that, you. 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.400 Know, of what do you what do you think though? 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.960 Who do you think is more? You think Taylor Swift 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:34.880 is well. 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:36.800 I would only say that in the sense that there 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.400 might be a chance that more people know who she is, 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.640 like today today, Michael Jackson's been dead for fifteen years 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.160 at least, and so I don't even I'm not saying 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:48.720 that more people know who she is. I'm just saying 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.680 I could see a world where now in terms of 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.040 like bigger, more, I don't. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.120 Know the hedge. It's like impossible to guess. 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.080 So you don't, you don't, you don't feel strongly. I 0:07:58.120 --> 0:07:59.560 mean you think it could be a toss up. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.679 If it depends on age, I guess if you're thirty, 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:03.600 in up Michael Jackson. 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.120 But the question is just more general, like in the world, 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:08.480 who's right now? 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:13.160 If you serve the internationally, Michael Jackson is a bigger, 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:14.880 more known person. 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.040 And who do you think has sold more albums? However 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.480 you want to quantify that, like who sold more music? 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.960 It's not fair, but Taylor Swift. It's not fair to 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.400 Michael Jackson had to get on a you have to 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.480 get on a bus to go buy his ship like today. 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.800 But that's what you think. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.079 I think it's crazy to even. 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:44.640 Suggest that Taylor Swift is bigger than Michael Jackson. Yeah, 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.520 I think Michael Jackson is, you know, besides Jesus, you know, 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.840 like the most popular person of all time, you know, 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.120 and it's beyond the music, right, It's like it's. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.120 A thing Jesus phenomenon. Yeah, it's just. 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.840 Like everyone knows who Michael Jackson is in in terms 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.040 of reach, right, Michael Jackson he was, you know, famous 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.760 when he was like five. He was in the industry 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.040 for a while. People who were very young knew who 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.840 Michael jacksons. We are very old know who Michael Jackson is. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:20.760 People can name Michael Jackson songs. Taylor Swift feels a 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.839 bit like, sure, maybe there's name recognition, but I think 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.600 people know less about Taylor Swift outside of like she's 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.000 dating Travis Kelsey, Like people don't My mom isn't. No, 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.000 she couldn't name a Taylor Swift song. She couldn't sing 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.320 a Taylor Swift song. A lot of people who know 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.679 Taylor Swift is could not name anything about her music. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:40.959 If you know who Michael Jackson is, you could probably 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:42.320 name one Michael Jackson song. 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:42.800 Yeah. 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:44.720 To be fair to Taylor Swift, I don't think any 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.440 artists ever will reach that's level. 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:48.920 Fault of stardom. 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.640 I think we're past that, We've passed the sort of 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.720 like everyone is listening to the same thing. Yeah, everything 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.440 is so much more fragmented nowadays that the closest we 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.880 have to like everybody's watching or listening to this thing, 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:01.480 Like what super Bowl halftime show? 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.320 Yeah, yep, it's like the one moment we have a yeah. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.559 And even that feels like decreasing. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.280 But yeah, where I come in on the kind of 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.119 impact sort of thing, It's like Michael Jackson is popular 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.400 across races, across ages, like you were saying, like across 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.040 the world, like like my parents listen to Michael Jackson, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.240 your parents Like it's. 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:25.280 Versus like Taylor Swift. 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:29.240 It's like, you know, I have a very simple picture 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.120 of who in my mind is the Tailor Shift listener. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.480 Obviously it's broader than that. Clearly based on the numbers, 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.840 it has to be. Yeah, But like a lot of 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:36.559 people would not. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.280 Be able to name the Tailor Shift songs in the 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.120 way that many people of all types would be able 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.600 to name Michael Jackson songs and talk about him, like 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:45.000 you were saying, I am. 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.600 Curious about like young people today, we can probably no 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.640 longer call ourselves young people, but people who are like 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:57.400 kids to teens, what their relationship to Michael Jackson? 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.280 Yeah, my brother, well maybe because you know, up, my 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:01.680 brother knows who Michael Jackson is though. 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.920 Yeah, and like you seventeen seventeen. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.600 Yeah, like I'm seeing videos of like, you know, three 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:10.280 year old canting to Michael Jackson. 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.160 Yeah, yeah, because you could picture if you know, we 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.160 had kids, Yes, they might hear Michael Jackson. 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.679 Ye, because of us, and then they know who. That's 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:18.200 all it takes. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.080 Take Michael Jackson out of the equation, just like thriller. Right, 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.920 It's like every Halloween thriller is going to be played everywhere. 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.560 And even if you don't know that's a Michael Jackson thing, 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.640 it's like, well you know that song, you know that video. 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.599 Someone brought this up to me too when I was 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.720 talking to him about this conversation about like, do you 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.600 think a woman could ever be as popular as any 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.800 famous man in terms of musicians, And I was like, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:47.000 actually no, because I think because women listen to female musicians, 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:51.000 and I think a lot of men will not listen. Yeah, women, 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.720 by a lot of well, straight men will not listening 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.560 to women musicians or you know, just because it's like 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:58.600 that's a girl thing. 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.320 Yeah, I think that's true because even like the most 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.120 praised like Beyonce album or whatever, Like whoever is the 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.880 most acceptable female star for men to listen to? I 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.320 don't think it would be Beyonce, but maybe yeah, you 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:11.079 just don't see. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.200 It reaching that height. Yeah at all. 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.480 So we're gonna take a break and when we come back, 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:17.679 we'll talk to someone who wrote a book crunching the 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.080 numbers when it comes to music data, and so hopefully 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.800 you can answer some of these questions. But first let's 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:24.880 hear from a few devoted Swifties about what the singer 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:36.920 means to them. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.480 So, I think Taylor Swift is so important to me 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.360 and so special to me because of the way she's 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.240 able to paint all the emotions of the world into song. 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:52.680 You can feel the life just flowing through every single note, rhythm, melody. 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:53.559 It's infectious. 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.240 I always said, you wrote the soundtrack to my life, 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.520 just because I fell in love for music in like 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.960 two thousand and six and it was like sixth grade. 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.760 I think around them, and even if I haven't been 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.720 through the things she's singing about, like she was singing 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.040 about breakups, and I had never had a relationship that 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.520 I'm like, oh my god, Like she gets my feelings 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:16.240 for me. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.520 What makes Taylor so special is her unhindered feminine voice, 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.240 the fact that she as a woman, can express her 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:30.280 feelings as a woman without having to be confined to. 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:31.599 As much patriarchy. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.920 She still is complied to patriarchy, but the shackles of 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.440 patriarchy are lighter than they have ever been. 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.760 I kind of say she's created a better church, one 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.520 where there tends to be a higher bar in terms 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.520 of we don't want misogynists here, we don't want homophobic 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.719 people here. We love people who want to express themselves, 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.160 whether that's painting their nails or dressing up to go 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:55.160 to concerts. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.719 I mean, I think people will also sometimes reduce her 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:01.440 relatability to just like, oh, she's a basic white girl, 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.000 so all the basic white girls see them at her. 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.440 And I'm like, that's like a crazyly misogynistic things to 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.040 say that, like, oh, all these women are just so basic, 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.560 and that's like that's who supports her, and that's why 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.640 she's so famous. It's like, no, she has a lots 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.160 of reasons for it. But she also has like massive 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.520 fan bases in Asia South America, like so many countries 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.200 and so like, she has managed to find a way 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:30.760 to just kind of like tap into being relatable to everyone. 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:35.640 So we are back. 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.760 We're trying to figure out how Taylor Swift's success compares 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.240 to past superstars and guess some answers were joined by 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.040 Chris Stalareva. Chris Mind introducing herself. 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.040 Yeah, sure, my name is Chris Stallareva. I feel like 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.360 I should say that again. I work in the music business. 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.440 I work for a music streaming company called audio Mac, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.520 which is more like the SoundCloud universe. People could upload directly, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.600 and we're very popular in Africa and the Caribbean and 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.880 I do the data analytics work there. But outside of 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.320 my job, I do a lot of writing about music 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.840 and data. I have a relatively popular newsletter and I 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.600 have a book coming out called Uncharted Territory, which is 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.840 a data driven history of popular music. So I'm very 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.640 much in the music data sphere. 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.080 So I guess let's kind of get straight into it. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:20.520 How popular is Tailor Swift? 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.600 And first let's focus maybe on simply like music sales, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.560 and if you want to bring in like concert tickets, 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.840 but like kind of pure numbers based. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.360 Yeah, what did you say, I mean, everyone's intuition here 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.840 is correct. Taylor Swift is very, very popular by the RIAA, 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.640 which is the organization in the US that certifies sales, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.360 so they hand out like the gold and platinum records. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.560 According to them, presently, Taylor Swift is the second best 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.280 selling artist of all time behind Drake. When I looked 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.440 at this a couple of years ago, number one was 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.480 still the Beatles, which is, you know, decades upon decades 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:59.080 of album sales. So Taylor Swift is very popular right now, 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.800 and I can't imagine a world, especially as Drake's star 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.920 has fallen, where she does not overtake him at some 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.960 point in terms of sales. It's worth pointing out, though, 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.200 that it's sort of an apples to oranges comparison. 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.640 Yeah, so yeah, can you explain kind of how it's 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:17.440 changed or how we measure these things. 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.800 Yeah, so Billboard, who does the charts, the RIAA, they're 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.280 trying to figure out what the most popular records are, 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.960 which is on the surface seems very easy. But this 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:30.920 day and age, we can consume music in tons of 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.840 different ways. Back in the day, it was really just sales. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.440 You went out, you purchase a record, that counts as 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.720 a sale. But even back then, there were some oddities 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.080 where if you put out a double album, so an 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.480 album with two discs, you know, the Wall by Pink 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.600 Floyd or the White Album by the Beatles, one purchase 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:48.960 of that counted as two sales. 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:50.560 Oh okay, I didn't know that. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.920 So there was always there's always be fye. Yeah, there's 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.640 always been weird chart behavior and weird things that artists 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.480 could do to try to run themselves up the charts 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.240 outside of just outright fraud, which was also you know, 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:07.200 that's a music industry classic. But it's more complicated now 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.440 because you still physical purchases which count the same. I 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.960 buy a piece of vinyl by By a CD that 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.560 counts as a sale. But there's also digital downloads and 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.239 there is also streams. So all of these bodies that 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.880 try to calculate popularity, the two biggest in the US 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:29.399 being the RIAA and Billboard, they equate digital downloads streams 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.959 in sales in some formula, So the RIA says one 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.399 hundred and fifty streams of a track equals one sale. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:43.040 Fifteen hundred streams of songs on an album equals one 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:49.040 album sale. Now this seems arbitrary, and to a degree 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.320 it is. I mean, someone just has to decide if 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:52.960 you play a track one hundred and fifty times, that's 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.919 a sale. But I think even if you come up 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.520 with some logic like, oh, the revenue from one hundred 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.880 and fifty tracks is about equal to what someone would 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.760 say been purchasing it. Okay, there's you could you could 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.760 get to some logical explanation. But in the same sense, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.960 streaming is much more passive. It's like, I'm going to 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.480 listen to every Drake record at least once, even if 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:13.480 I would never go out and purchase. 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.720 A Drake, and it costs you basically nothing, just my time. 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.040 Yeah, my time is my only expense. And if you 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.680 go back and look at like the ria's all time 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.000 best selling artist two years ago, it was mostly still 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:30.080 old timers, you know, the Beatles, Pink, Floyd, ACDC, Michael 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.159 Jackson's of the World. If you look at it today, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.200 it's you still have a lot of those older acts, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.840 but the top of the list is really dominated by 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.880 more recent acts who still do very well on streaming. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.800 So I think streaming inflates these numbers to some degree 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:46.800 just by the way the math works, but also because 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.359 it's just it's more passive. 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.760 And thinking about it, like, Okay, if you buy a 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.160 CD or an album, how many times do you listen 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:54.439 to that? 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.280 Like, say you went out in about the fifty cent album? 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.600 Sure, how many times do you think, yeah, yeah, take 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:00.200