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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm manny I noh, and welcome to No such Thing,

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Speaker 1: the show where we set all our dumb arguments and

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Speaker 1: yours by actually doing the research. This week we find

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Speaker 1: out how popular Boring Barbie actually is.

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Speaker 2: There's no no such thing, no such thing such, thank such,

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Speaker 2: thank touch, thank.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Taylor Swift mainly. How did she capture

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Speaker 1: our collective attention so completely her new album It's sold

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Speaker 1: two point seven million copies in one day.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: This is something we've talked about a while because you

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Speaker 1: see big albums like this come out not only from her,

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Speaker 1: about anyone else, and it'll be like, this song just

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Speaker 1: broke this amazing record.

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Speaker 5: This is the most popular song ever of all time.

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Speaker 5: And it never really makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It's always like something like, yeah, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: listen to the Weekend Blinding Lights to me is not

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Speaker 1: the most popular song.

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Speaker 5: Ever, right, even though it is.

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Speaker 1: Even though people listen to Yeah, people listen to him.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's like, no one listens to that guy.

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Speaker 1: And we're curious, in the grand scheme of things, how

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Speaker 1: popular is a Taylor Swift compared to someone from the past,

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Speaker 1: like the Beatles or Michael Jackson. But before we get

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Speaker 1: into that, Okay, what everyone wants to know is what

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Speaker 1: do we think about Taylor Swift US three mid thirties

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Speaker 1: guys think so, you know, we'll get to that right

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Speaker 1: in the interest, so people don't even need to listen

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Speaker 1: to the rest of this.

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Speaker 5: So what are your experiences with her?

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Speaker 6: Well, let me start by saying, I genuinely have not

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Speaker 6: listened to much of her music, like I do. Remember

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Speaker 6: when I was in high school. You know, I'm on

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Speaker 6: the bleachers. What's as a song you Belong with Me?

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Speaker 6: You Belong with Me? And I thought that was really

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Speaker 6: catchy at the time. Fast forward, however, many years, like

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Speaker 6: I really haven't listened to much of it. I did

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Speaker 6: listen to this one, and my initial reaction was that,

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Speaker 6: you know, a lot of it sounded really well produced.

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Speaker 6: It's kind of pleasant to listen to in that way.

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Speaker 6: I am not unique in my reaction to like the lyrics.

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Speaker 6: I'll say, like, some of those were kind of like,

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Speaker 6: kind of mind bogglingly bad, but not so much worse

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Speaker 6: than like your average top forty pop fair.

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Speaker 4: I'm not as swifty by any stretching.

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Speaker 7: Imagine it's okay if you are, but I think I'm

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Speaker 7: out right now. Amongst the three of us, I'm definitely

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Speaker 7: the most in tune with.

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Speaker 5: You've at least heard. Yeah, you keep up on mainstream

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Speaker 5: popular music.

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Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, I usually give all the new albums at

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Speaker 7: least one listen through. You know, I dated a Swifty

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Speaker 7: for a while, so like it was at a certain

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Speaker 7: point my Apple Music would try to wreck you know,

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Speaker 7: you know, auto play tailor car Yeah, and.

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Speaker 4: I had to tell it to stop doing that.

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Speaker 5: Swifty as in by Osmosis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: But my thoughts on this album, Okay, when we talk

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Speaker 7: about Taylor Swift, I'm a reputation fan.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I listened to that one. That was I think

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Speaker 1: the last album I listened to before this one.

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Speaker 4: My favorite Endgame the Future in Edge, Big d Bars.

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Speaker 7: The linkup was crazy incredible, So you know, I hope

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Speaker 7: we get back to their.

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Speaker 6: This album compared to reputation.

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Speaker 7: Not no, no, no no, this doesn't hold up to

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Speaker 7: reputation for me. Okay, Yeah, people are talking a lot

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Speaker 7: about the lyrics. I don't have much room to talk.

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Speaker 7: Some of my favorite artists have the most cringey lyrics.

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Speaker 6: I think she gets a little bit picked on I

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Speaker 6: think because of the identity she's built around being a

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Speaker 6: song That's what I.

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Speaker 5: Was going to say.

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Speaker 1: I think the fandom hurts her in this case because

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Speaker 1: they they try to make sure she's built up to

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Speaker 1: be so highly esteemed as a songwriter and a lyricist

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Speaker 1: and all this, so that way when anything is not great,

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Speaker 1: like we wouldn't be this critical of Sabrina Carpenter or someone, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just because we don't think of her that way, because

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Speaker 1: people don't put her on that pedestal.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not upset at me, espresso, Do I know

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Speaker 5: what the fuck that means? That's fun, I mean whatever,

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Speaker 5: But yes.

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Speaker 7: I do feel like too, Taylor's doing this thing where

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Speaker 7: she's like talking about the Internet on this album, right,

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Speaker 7: and I feel like once you get a certain level

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Speaker 7: of a rich you're just like out of touch with

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Speaker 7: the Internet in a way. But I do feel like

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Speaker 7: there is a sort of like she's singing about stuff

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Speaker 7: that feels like it's like.

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Speaker 4: Not ten years old, close to it, you know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well like yeah girl Battle Boston.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah.

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Speaker 1: I listened to the album and then I was surprised

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Speaker 1: by the reaction being so negative.

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Speaker 5: It seems just because it to my ears.

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Speaker 1: And this is the thing where it's like, if you're

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Speaker 1: really in this world, you're going to notice the differences

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Speaker 1: versus like I pop into some pop albums, not tailors

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Speaker 1: fifth albums. So it's like, to me, this doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: so dramatically different. But if I was like ahead, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd be able to be like, Okay, this is a

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Speaker 1: clear you know, clearly worse than before or clearly different

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Speaker 1: in this way. To me, it's not so dramatically different

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Speaker 1: than even like the really old stuff, yeah, sonically or lyrically. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So you're saying that the songwriting is is bad, but Whires,

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Speaker 1: everyone's surprised. It's always kind of like this. I'm not

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Speaker 1: even saying it's bad even, but it sounds not so

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Speaker 1: dramatically different.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it sounds about because I.

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Speaker 1: Listened to the album a few times now and it

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Speaker 1: kind of grew on me certain parts, certain songs. I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, there's actually at least a really good

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Speaker 1: piece here.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. A lot of people were posting albums that other

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Speaker 6: female artists did at age thirty five versus a show girl. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: and it was like Beyonce Lemonade and the Joni Mitchell

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Speaker 6: album I can't remember. Yeah, there's like so many examples

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Speaker 6: of like kind of more mature, iconic mature music.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, that was listening to Life of a show Girl.

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Speaker 1: There was parts where it was like, this sounds like

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Speaker 1: music for babies, And I mean that kind of respectfully.

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Speaker 5: You got a private Tom, It's fun.

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Speaker 1: I actually think I like the album more than you guys,

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Speaker 1: But some of some music, when I'm listening to the lyrics,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this just sounds like something for a little

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Speaker 1: kid to dance singing to.

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Speaker 5: The sounds of it are just like, so.

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Speaker 4: Let's pop please in general, And to.

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Speaker 6: Be fair, it's like probably kind of the goal, like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: it's a lot of.

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Speaker 5: A bad thing. Yes, it's not very Uh there's not

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Speaker 5: much of an edge to it. Yeah, no, you know,

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Speaker 5: by design.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. I think I see the harsh reaction in two

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Speaker 6: different ways. One is there's got to be some kind

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Speaker 6: of a fatigue. I think that's kind of what you

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Speaker 6: were talking about, where like the album doesn't really sound

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Speaker 6: that much different than the previous ones, and yet there's

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Speaker 6: a backlash.

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Speaker 5: There's probably a little fatigue there.

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Speaker 7: She kind of has to drink problem where she Na

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Speaker 7: always has to be making music always needs to be

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Speaker 7: in spotlight. I was like, it'd be interesting if she

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Speaker 7: just like dropped two songs, yeah, and not an album,

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Speaker 7: But she doesn't really do that.

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Speaker 1: So let's move on to kind of our question that

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Speaker 1: we're tackling. Do you guys think she is bigger than

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson?

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Speaker 6: What I would say is that Taylor Swift might be

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Speaker 6: more famous in that more people know who she is today,

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Speaker 6: but Michael Jackson. But Michael Jackson is a bigger.

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Speaker 5: Completed No, No, I think it's flipped.

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Speaker 1: I think I think she might well have technically sold

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Speaker 1: more records, yes, but I think Michael Jackson is way

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Speaker 1: more famous, especially if we're not talking about just America

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Speaker 1: like worldwide.

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Speaker 5: You know what I mean, I forgot about you know

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Speaker 5: who Michael Jackson is. You know it's and like there's

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Speaker 5: symbols of him that you could show, like.

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Speaker 4: Kids are wearing Michael Jackson.

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift by face, a lot of people would recognize her,

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Speaker 1: but there's not like there's not like the red jacket,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, there's nothing like that, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, of what do you what do you think though?

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Speaker 4: Who do you think is more? You think Taylor Swift

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Speaker 4: is well.

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Speaker 6: I would only say that in the sense that there

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Speaker 6: might be a chance that more people know who she is,

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Speaker 6: like today today, Michael Jackson's been dead for fifteen years

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Speaker 6: at least, and so I don't even I'm not saying

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Speaker 6: that more people know who she is. I'm just saying

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Speaker 6: I could see a world where now in terms of

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Speaker 6: like bigger, more, I don't.

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Speaker 5: Know the hedge. It's like impossible to guess.

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Speaker 4: So you don't, you don't, you don't feel strongly. I

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Speaker 4: mean you think it could be a toss up.

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Speaker 6: If it depends on age, I guess if you're thirty,

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Speaker 6: in up Michael Jackson.

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Speaker 7: But the question is just more general, like in the world,

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Speaker 7: who's right now?

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Speaker 6: If you serve the internationally, Michael Jackson is a bigger,

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Speaker 6: more known person.

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Speaker 1: And who do you think has sold more albums? However

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Speaker 1: you want to quantify that, like who sold more music?

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Speaker 6: It's not fair, but Taylor Swift. It's not fair to

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Speaker 6: Michael Jackson had to get on a you have to

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Speaker 6: get on a bus to go buy his ship like today.

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Speaker 5: But that's what you think.

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Speaker 4: I think it's crazy to even.

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Speaker 7: Suggest that Taylor Swift is bigger than Michael Jackson. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: I think Michael Jackson is, you know, besides Jesus, you know,

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Speaker 7: like the most popular person of all time, you know,

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Speaker 7: and it's beyond the music, right, It's like it's.

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Speaker 5: A thing Jesus phenomenon. Yeah, it's just.

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Speaker 7: Like everyone knows who Michael Jackson is in in terms

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Speaker 7: of reach, right, Michael Jackson he was, you know, famous

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Speaker 7: when he was like five. He was in the industry

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Speaker 7: for a while. People who were very young knew who

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Speaker 7: Michael jacksons. We are very old know who Michael Jackson is.

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Speaker 7: People can name Michael Jackson songs. Taylor Swift feels a

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Speaker 7: bit like, sure, maybe there's name recognition, but I think

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Speaker 7: people know less about Taylor Swift outside of like she's

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Speaker 7: dating Travis Kelsey, Like people don't My mom isn't. No,

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Speaker 7: she couldn't name a Taylor Swift song. She couldn't sing

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Speaker 7: a Taylor Swift song. A lot of people who know

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Speaker 7: Taylor Swift is could not name anything about her music.

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Speaker 7: If you know who Michael Jackson is, you could probably

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Speaker 7: name one Michael Jackson song.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: To be fair to Taylor Swift, I don't think any

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Speaker 7: artists ever will reach that's level.

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Speaker 4: Fault of stardom.

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Speaker 7: I think we're past that, We've passed the sort of

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Speaker 7: like everyone is listening to the same thing. Yeah, everything

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Speaker 7: is so much more fragmented nowadays that the closest we

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Speaker 7: have to like everybody's watching or listening to this thing,

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Speaker 7: Like what super Bowl halftime show?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, it's like the one moment we have a yeah.

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Speaker 5: And even that feels like decreasing.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, where I come in on the kind of

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Speaker 1: impact sort of thing, It's like Michael Jackson is popular

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Speaker 1: across races, across ages, like you were saying, like across

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Speaker 1: the world, like like my parents listen to Michael Jackson,

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Speaker 1: your parents Like it's.

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Speaker 5: Versus like Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I have a very simple picture

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Speaker 1: of who in my mind is the Tailor Shift listener.

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Speaker 5: Obviously it's broader than that. Clearly based on the numbers,

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Speaker 5: it has to be. Yeah, But like a lot of

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Speaker 5: people would not.

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Speaker 1: Be able to name the Tailor Shift songs in the

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Speaker 1: way that many people of all types would be able

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Speaker 1: to name Michael Jackson songs and talk about him, like

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Speaker 1: you were saying, I am.

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Speaker 6: Curious about like young people today, we can probably no

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Speaker 6: longer call ourselves young people, but people who are like

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Speaker 6: kids to teens, what their relationship to Michael Jackson?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, my brother, well maybe because you know, up, my

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Speaker 7: brother knows who Michael Jackson is though.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and like you seventeen seventeen.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, like I'm seeing videos of like, you know, three

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Speaker 7: year old canting to Michael Jackson.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because you could picture if you know, we

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Speaker 1: had kids, Yes, they might hear Michael Jackson.

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Speaker 5: Ye, because of us, and then they know who. That's

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Speaker 5: all it takes.

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Speaker 7: Take Michael Jackson out of the equation, just like thriller. Right,

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Speaker 7: It's like every Halloween thriller is going to be played everywhere.

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Speaker 7: And even if you don't know that's a Michael Jackson thing,

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Speaker 7: it's like, well you know that song, you know that video.

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Speaker 7: Someone brought this up to me too when I was

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Speaker 7: talking to him about this conversation about like, do you

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Speaker 7: think a woman could ever be as popular as any

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Speaker 7: famous man in terms of musicians, And I was like,

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Speaker 7: actually no, because I think because women listen to female musicians,

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Speaker 7: and I think a lot of men will not listen. Yeah, women,

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Speaker 7: by a lot of well, straight men will not listening

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Speaker 7: to women musicians or you know, just because it's like

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Speaker 7: that's a girl thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true because even like the most

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Speaker 1: praised like Beyonce album or whatever, Like whoever is the

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Speaker 1: most acceptable female star for men to listen to? I

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Speaker 1: don't think it would be Beyonce, but maybe yeah, you

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Speaker 1: just don't see.

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Speaker 5: It reaching that height. Yeah at all.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna take a break and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk to someone who wrote a book crunching the

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Speaker 1: numbers when it comes to music data, and so hopefully

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Speaker 1: you can answer some of these questions. But first let's

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Speaker 1: hear from a few devoted Swifties about what the singer

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Speaker 1: means to them.

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Speaker 3: So, I think Taylor Swift is so important to me

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Speaker 3: and so special to me because of the way she's

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Speaker 3: able to paint all the emotions of the world into song.

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Speaker 3: You can feel the life just flowing through every single note, rhythm, melody.

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Speaker 3: It's infectious.

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Speaker 8: I always said, you wrote the soundtrack to my life,

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Speaker 8: just because I fell in love for music in like

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Speaker 8: two thousand and six and it was like sixth grade.

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Speaker 8: I think around them, and even if I haven't been

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Speaker 8: through the things she's singing about, like she was singing

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Speaker 8: about breakups, and I had never had a relationship that

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Speaker 8: I'm like, oh my god, Like she gets my feelings

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Speaker 8: for me.

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Speaker 9: What makes Taylor so special is her unhindered feminine voice,

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Speaker 9: the fact that she as a woman, can express her

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Speaker 9: feelings as a woman without having to be confined to.

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Speaker 4: As much patriarchy.

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Speaker 9: She still is complied to patriarchy, but the shackles of

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Speaker 9: patriarchy are lighter than they have ever been.

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Speaker 3: I kind of say she's created a better church, one

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Speaker 3: where there tends to be a higher bar in terms

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Speaker 3: of we don't want misogynists here, we don't want homophobic

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Speaker 3: people here. We love people who want to express themselves,

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Speaker 3: whether that's painting their nails or dressing up to go

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Speaker 3: to concerts.

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Speaker 8: I mean, I think people will also sometimes reduce her

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Speaker 8: relatability to just like, oh, she's a basic white girl,

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Speaker 8: so all the basic white girls see them at her.

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Speaker 8: And I'm like, that's like a crazyly misogynistic things to

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Speaker 8: say that, like, oh, all these women are just so basic,

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Speaker 8: and that's like that's who supports her, and that's why

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Speaker 8: she's so famous. It's like, no, she has a lots

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Speaker 8: of reasons for it. But she also has like massive

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Speaker 8: fan bases in Asia South America, like so many countries

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Speaker 8: and so like, she has managed to find a way

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Speaker 8: to just kind of like tap into being relatable to everyone.

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Speaker 5: So we are back.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to figure out how Taylor Swift's success compares

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Speaker 1: to past superstars and guess some answers were joined by

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Speaker 1: Chris Stalareva. Chris Mind introducing herself.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, sure, my name is Chris Stallareva. I feel like

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Speaker 10: I should say that again. I work in the music business.

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Speaker 10: I work for a music streaming company called audio Mac,

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Speaker 10: which is more like the SoundCloud universe. People could upload directly,

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Speaker 10: and we're very popular in Africa and the Caribbean and

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Speaker 10: I do the data analytics work there. But outside of

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Speaker 10: my job, I do a lot of writing about music

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Speaker 10: and data. I have a relatively popular newsletter and I

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Speaker 10: have a book coming out called Uncharted Territory, which is

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Speaker 10: a data driven history of popular music. So I'm very

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Speaker 10: much in the music data sphere.

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Speaker 5: So I guess let's kind of get straight into it.

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Speaker 5: How popular is Tailor Swift?

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Speaker 1: And first let's focus maybe on simply like music sales,

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Speaker 1: and if you want to bring in like concert tickets,

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Speaker 1: but like kind of pure numbers based.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, what did you say, I mean, everyone's intuition here

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Speaker 10: is correct. Taylor Swift is very, very popular by the RIAA,

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Speaker 10: which is the organization in the US that certifies sales,

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Speaker 10: so they hand out like the gold and platinum records.

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Speaker 10: According to them, presently, Taylor Swift is the second best

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Speaker 10: selling artist of all time behind Drake. When I looked

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Speaker 10: at this a couple of years ago, number one was

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Speaker 10: still the Beatles, which is, you know, decades upon decades

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Speaker 10: of album sales. So Taylor Swift is very popular right now,

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Speaker 10: and I can't imagine a world, especially as Drake's star

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Speaker 10: has fallen, where she does not overtake him at some

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Speaker 10: point in terms of sales. It's worth pointing out, though,

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Speaker 10: that it's sort of an apples to oranges comparison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, can you explain kind of how it's

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Speaker 1: changed or how we measure these things.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, so Billboard, who does the charts, the RIAA, they're

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Speaker 10: trying to figure out what the most popular records are,

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Speaker 10: which is on the surface seems very easy. But this

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Speaker 10: day and age, we can consume music in tons of

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Speaker 10: different ways. Back in the day, it was really just sales.

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Speaker 10: You went out, you purchase a record, that counts as

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Speaker 10: a sale. But even back then, there were some oddities

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Speaker 10: where if you put out a double album, so an

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Speaker 10: album with two discs, you know, the Wall by Pink

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Speaker 10: Floyd or the White Album by the Beatles, one purchase

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Speaker 10: of that counted as two sales.

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Speaker 5: Oh okay, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 10: So there was always there's always be fye. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 10: always been weird chart behavior and weird things that artists

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Speaker 10: could do to try to run themselves up the charts

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Speaker 10: outside of just outright fraud, which was also you know,

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Speaker 10: that's a music industry classic. But it's more complicated now

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Speaker 10: because you still physical purchases which count the same. I

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Speaker 10: buy a piece of vinyl by By a CD that

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Speaker 10: counts as a sale. But there's also digital downloads and

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Speaker 10: there is also streams. So all of these bodies that

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Speaker 10: try to calculate popularity, the two biggest in the US

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Speaker 10: being the RIAA and Billboard, they equate digital downloads streams

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Speaker 10: in sales in some formula, So the RIA says one

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Speaker 10: hundred and fifty streams of a track equals one sale.

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Speaker 10: Fifteen hundred streams of songs on an album equals one

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Speaker 10: album sale. Now this seems arbitrary, and to a degree

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Speaker 10: it is. I mean, someone just has to decide if

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Speaker 10: you play a track one hundred and fifty times, that's

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Speaker 10: a sale. But I think even if you come up

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Speaker 10: with some logic like, oh, the revenue from one hundred

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Speaker 10: and fifty tracks is about equal to what someone would

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Speaker 10: say been purchasing it. Okay, there's you could you could

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Speaker 10: get to some logical explanation. But in the same sense,

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Speaker 10: streaming is much more passive. It's like, I'm going to

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Speaker 10: listen to every Drake record at least once, even if

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Speaker 10: I would never go out and purchase.

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Speaker 5: A Drake, and it costs you basically nothing, just my time.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, my time is my only expense. And if you

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Speaker 10: go back and look at like the ria's all time

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Speaker 10: best selling artist two years ago, it was mostly still

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Speaker 10: old timers, you know, the Beatles, Pink, Floyd, ACDC, Michael

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Speaker 10: Jackson's of the World. If you look at it today,

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Speaker 10: it's you still have a lot of those older acts,

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Speaker 10: but the top of the list is really dominated by

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Speaker 10: more recent acts who still do very well on streaming.

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Speaker 10: So I think streaming inflates these numbers to some degree

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Speaker 10: just by the way the math works, but also because

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Speaker 10: it's just it's more passive.

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Speaker 1: And thinking about it, like, Okay, if you buy a

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Speaker 1: CD or an album, how many times do you listen

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Speaker 1: to that?

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Speaker 5: Like, say you went out in about the fifty cent album?

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Speaker 1: Sure, how many times do you think, yeah, yeah, take

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Speaker 1: us back there.

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Speaker 5: How many times do you think you listen to that album?

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Speaker 6: I mean over the I mean it takes years, I

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Speaker 6: think to Like, that's a lot of to that, man,

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Speaker 6: I mean it's a lot of listeners.

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Speaker 1: I'm almost arguing they should be lowering that number. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree, And you're kind of thinking about it the

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Speaker 1: same way.

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Speaker 6: Help me understand this. Is it accurate to say that

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Speaker 6: fifteen hundred different people listening to the same song once

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Speaker 6: is equal to one person buying the physical album.

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Speaker 10: By the chart math, Yes, and it's not just The

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Speaker 10: other oddity is you don't have to listen to the

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Speaker 10: entire album if there's one really popular song. Oh and

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Speaker 10: it's the same with digital downloads. They say ten track

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Speaker 10: sales is equal to an album sale, but if you

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Speaker 10: have ten people purchase whatever the single is, that counts

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Speaker 10: as an album.

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Speaker 1: Sale, and then because there's playlists two like the Spotify playlist.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's getting extreamed when you didn't even seek it out.

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Speaker 10: People always say music listening is much more passive today,

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Speaker 10: and I agree to in some sense that it is,

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Speaker 10: but it's not like back in the day. Like back

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Speaker 10: in the day passive. This thing which you would turn

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Speaker 10: on the radio or whatever CD I have in my

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Speaker 10: car is what's getting played.

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Speaker 6: Earlier, we were talking about another example I'd love to

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Speaker 6: hear your thoughts on, which is this the weekend song

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Speaker 6: Blinding Lights, the most popular song, apparently the most popular

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Speaker 6: song in history. Now, I like that song, but why

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Speaker 6: is there such a discrepancy between that stat and how

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Speaker 6: like normal people feel about that song.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, I've also think about this a lot. The other

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Speaker 10: one is I don't know if it's number one or

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Speaker 10: it's now up. There is a bar song Tipsy by

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Speaker 10: Shaozi Oh yeah, which is very popular. But they're those

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Speaker 10: songs are They're very popular, they're well liked, But I

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Speaker 10: think it's really a streaming phenomenon. We're streaming inflate stuff.

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Speaker 10: Whereas before Blinding Lights took over as Billboard's most popular

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Speaker 10: song of all time. Previously it was the Twist, and

441
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 10: I'm like, the Twist is clearly like a cultural touchstone.

442
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 10: Even if you're are young, you've probably heard the Twist

443
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 10: at least once or something like the macarena is like,

444
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 10: whereas Blinding Lights doesn't feel like that to me. And

445
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 10: I think part of that is there's like a cultural fracturing.

446
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 10: But I think additionally it's just that we count things differently,

447
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 10: Whereas before we were counting sales, and now we're counting

448
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 10: consumption or listening. Like the equivalent would be how many

449
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 10: times did you actually spin your copy of Hey Jude.

450
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 5: By the Beatles?

451
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 8: Ye?

452
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 10: I don't know, Yeah, I've done it a lot.

453
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 6: Why can't they just call it the most streamed song

454
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 6: of all time? It makes me think of like when

455
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 6: Watched the Throne came out, for example, and I had

456
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 6: to get in my car drive to best buy Wait

457
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 6: in the Line and then buy the album. That to me,

458
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 6: it doesn't seem fair that that is valued the same

459
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 6: as someone accidentally listening to a song today fift times

460
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 6: or fifteen hundred different people you know accidentally listening to

461
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 6: that song on a playlist or something.

462
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 10: This is the magic of Taylor Swift is that she

463
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 10: can get people. They still go to Target and buy

464
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 10: eight different versions.

465
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: Can So can you elaborate on that, Like how big

466
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 1: of a factor do you think that is?

467
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 10: I think that's huge. So they just announced that this

468
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 10: new album is gonna set the record for the most

469
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 10: physical sales in a single an opening week for an album.

470
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 10: It's going to best Adell's album twenty five. Now a

471
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 10: Dell's album twenty five. There's like no bonus track editions,

472
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 10: It's just the album. So you've got to assume most

473
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 10: people who purchase that are just a single person buying

474
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 10: the album. Where I think there's been like thirty different

475
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 10: versions of this Taylor Swift album created, and like each

476
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 10: one has a different bonus track.

477
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 5: Of this album.

478
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 10: Yes, and there are different people who will go out

479
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 10: and buy every single copy. So I wish there was

480
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 10: a stat like how many unique people purchased the record

481
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 10: because I mean, she has a super rabid fan base.

482
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,199
Speaker 10: I mean, you know you're talking concert tickets before the

483
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 10: Eras tour is the most lucrative tour of all time.

484
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 10: Even with all this weird chart math, still very very popular.

485
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 10: I mean, there's no there's no two ways about that.

486
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 7: That's what makes it weird to me though, that she's

487
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 7: doing the bonus stuff. It's just like, you don't need

488
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 7: to do that, like you're Taylor Swift. You know this

489
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 7: is like btier artists like maneuvers, And it was weird

490
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 7: because you know, not to be this guy. But she

491
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 7: did say before this album came out, I'm not doing

492
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 7: the bonus track thing. You're getting just whatever the twelve

493
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 7: songs I'm putting out, or the twelve songs that are

494
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 7: going to be on the album, you can say, Okay,

495
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 7: they're not new songs, they're acoustic.

496
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 4: Versions or whatever.

497
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 7: So maybe that's her workaround, yeah, but she made it

498
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 7: seem like she wasn't because she got a lot of

499
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 7: blowback for the last album for doing all these different iterations,

500
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 7: Like you're saying, Okay, I got to buy the album

501
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 7: six times to just get the six different bonus tracks. Yeah,

502
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 7: because each album only has one bonus track.

503
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 6: It's crazy, and all the different versions are not like

504
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 6: on streaming right, like not to go half to actually

505
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 6: buy it.

506
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 10: So everyone's always trying to game the system because if

507
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 10: you popularity begets popularity, you have a number one record,

508
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 10: you know, it's something to hang your hat on. More

509
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 10: people are gonna listen even if you're not a Taylor

510
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 10: Swift fan. And I tell you that it's the most

511
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 10: purchased album and the first week ever. Yeah, interest, Yeah,

512
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 10: you might go check it out. It's like, how the

513
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 10: greatest marketing for Thriller ever is just it's the greatest

514
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 10: selling album of all time.

515
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

516
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 1: So the main kind of question we're here is kind

517
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: of comparing Taylor to especially Michael Jackson, but also like

518
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: the Beatles and yeah, you know, so how how would

519
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: you say her stats compared to like, you know, peak

520
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: Beatlemania and then Michael Jackson.

521
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 10: First of all, it's like, obviously it's an unanswerable question

522
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 10: because it is like Apple's to oranges comparison. But I

523
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 10: pulled some stuff that I think can inform the debate

524
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 10: a little. I feel like the only artists of the

525
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 10: twentieth century or the twenty first century you could really

526
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 10: compare Taylor Swift's popularity too, And I'm going back far

527
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 10: are bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson,

528
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 10: and maybe Madonna. But I think those older artists, like

529
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 10: the Frank Sinatras of the World very popular, but there

530
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 10: wasn't the media ecosystem that we have now. I think

531
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 10: the Beatles are the first example of an our artist

532
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 10: be me Elvis two that you can truly compare because

533
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 10: television was finally a thing. There was a very centralized

534
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 10: media ecosystem you could interact with, not just the music

535
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 10: the artists were putting out, but what they looked like

536
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 10: they were going to be on television. How long do

537
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 10: you think Beatlemania will last?

538
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 2: As long as you all keep coming?

539
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 10: And Michael Jackson obviously takes that to a completely different level.

540
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 10: And they also the Beatles are only together for like

541
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 10: ten years, but when they were around, stadium touring was

542
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 10: not a thing. Like they were the first artist to

543
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 10: play an outdoor stadium, which was the former Say Stadium

544
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 10: in Queens. So again it makes all comparisons hard, but

545
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 10: I think with Michael Jackson and Taylor Swift you can

546
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 10: sort of get an apples to apples comparison. And one

547
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 10: way I was looking at this was comparing his to

548
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 10: his last completed tour to the Aras tour. And I'll

549
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 10: give you a couple stats here that I think are interesting.

550
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 10: The arastour sold ten million tickets across one hundred and

551
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 10: forty nine shows, which is about sixty eight thousand per show,

552
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 10: was in twenty five countries, but eighty five percent of

553
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 10: the tour dates were either in the US, UK or Canada.

554
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 10: Michael Jackson's last completed world tour was his History World

555
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 10: Tour in ninety six to ninety seven, sold four and

556
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 10: a half million tickets across eighty two shows, which is

557
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 10: an average of fifty five thousand per show, which is less,

558
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 10: but only six dates, or seven percent of those dates

559
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 10: were in the US, UK and Canada. In fact, only

560
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 10: two shows are in the US and they were both

561
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 10: in Hawaii, which I thought was crazy. None were in Canada.

562
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 10: And he hits like a ton of countries that Taylor

563
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 10: Swift doesn't, like Malaysia, Thailand, Tunisia, Roni or Russia. It's

564
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 10: not to say that Taylor Shift couldn't play any of

565
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 10: those places, but it As I was looking into this,

566
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 10: it just struck me how global Michael Jackson's fame was.

567
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 10: And there were some stats about when Taylor Swift took

568
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 10: the Aris tour to Europe, like twenty percent of tickets

569
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 10: in the Paris show were purchased by Americans. We're gonna

570
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 10: fly out now, people who love done that. So I

571
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 10: think Michael Jackson's fame is it's hard to quantify how

572
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 10: large it was. Another crazy fact, he was planning this

573
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 10: this is It tour and he died and it was

574
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 10: supposed to be ten nights at the two Arena in

575
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 10: the UK, which holds twenty thousand people. Because of demand,

576
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 10: they had to add forty more dates just for that arena. Yeah,

577
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 10: so it was gonna be fifty nights at one arena

578
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 10: in London.

579
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 7: Well that was the whole thing because they were saying

580
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 7: that he wasn't in the condition to play that many shows,

581
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 7: and they were like, but the money looks really good

582
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 7: if we keep adding dates.

583
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 5: Forty is crazy total total of fifty.

584
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 4: This is it. I mean, this is really it.

585
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 5: This is the final curtain call. I'll see you in July.

586
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: I love you.

587
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 6: That nineties History World tour. Easy to imagine that if

588
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 6: he added six to ten shows in the US like

589
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 6: New York, LA, Chicago, that it would probably eclipse or

590
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 6: at least match this the arastour.

591
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 10: You yeah, you would, you would think.

592
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 8: So.

593
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 10: I think Michael Jackson's global theme. I think I don't

594
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 10: want to say Taylor Swift is a US phenomenon because

595
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 10: she's not. I mean she could. She's one of the

596
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 10: most famous people on Earth. I have I've had this

597
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 10: debate often with people, but who the most recognizable person

598
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 10: on Earth is outside of politicians and like the pope,

599
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 10: And I feel like she's she's got to be up there.

600
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 10: But I think we're obviously all in the US. I

601
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 10: think our fame is really magnified in the Western world,

602
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 10: whereas Michael Jackson was super famous in the US and

603
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 10: was constantly you know, in the tabloids for bad reasons,

604
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 10: but his fame really went across borders in a way

605
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 10: that I don't think we really see with other artists.

606
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 10: So I think Michael Jackson is the only the only

607
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 10: comparison point here. But otherwise, I mean, it's unprecedented.

608
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 6: When it comes to stream sales, album sales. I have

609
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 6: kind of a like a bond Rip question to ask,

610
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 6: which is like, when you comparison an artist today to

611
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 6: someone in the eighties or seventies or sixties in the

612
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 6: US alone, Let's say there's like, isn't it the case

613
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 6: that there's like substantially more people.

614
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 5: Yes, today, I actually did have the same thought.

615
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 10: No, that I also was thinking about that. That is

616
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 10: one hundred percent true. The population is much larger, Yeah, which.

617
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: Is like, that's funny.

618
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 10: I don't think people consider those very basic demographic questions

619
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 10: when you think about stuff like this in terms of

620
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 10: I guess, gross number of people. It's possible that even

621
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 10: if Taylor Swift has less goal will reach, she's reaching

622
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 10: more fans.

623
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mentioned earlier. Yeah, interesting your piece that she wrote.

624
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: I think in twenty twenty three you talked about kind

625
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: of her arc as an artist, in her longevity and

626
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: kind of what's unusual about it, like kind of peaking later.

627
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 10: Pick your favorite artist. It's almost one hundred percent certain

628
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 10: that their most important works were released before they were thirty.

629
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 10: Popular music is a young person's game. It doesn't mean

630
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 10: older people don't put out great stuff, but in terms

631
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 10: of like the pop culture universe, it's it's a young

632
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 10: person's game. And Taylor Stiff was obviously famous, very very young,

633
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 10: but she her popularity I think is cresting. I mean,

634
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 10: I can't imagine getting bigger than this, but who knows.

635
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 10: When she's in her mid thirties, which is rare. I mean,

636
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 10: there are other superstars who maintain their popularity over time,

637
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 10: like Elton John's a good example. He was super famous

638
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 10: in the seventies, sort of fell off a bit in

639
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 10: the eighties, and then in the nineties he became like

640
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 10: a legacy act. But I think the thing that's special

641
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 10: about Taylor Swift. Are different about Taylor Swift is she

642
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 10: has made her legacy material and like her new material

643
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 10: sort of exists on the same plane where she still

644
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 10: feels culturally vital for the new things that she's doing,

645
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 10: while the old stuff also feels really vital. Actually, if

646
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 10: you'll let me read this quote. This is from a

647
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 10: critic named Stephen Hyde, and he's a great music writer

648
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 10: for up Rocks and someone it was like an ask

649
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 10: good the music critic column, and they said, will Taylorstoft's

650
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 10: popularity ever fade? And his observation here, I think really

651
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 10: points out why her fame is so unique. This is

652
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 10: the part of Taylor Swift's career that is unprecedented. She

653
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 10: has rather brilliantly convinced the public that her past and

654
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 10: present coexists right now. She's dismantled the former New work

655
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 10: versus old work binary for artist and replaced it with

656
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 10: the eras paradigm, where her songs are parceled into different

657
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 10: concurrent channels that are equal accessible. It's the same logic

658
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 10: that streaming platforms have taught us, where all music history

659
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 10: exists in the same bucket, and Taylor Swift has figured

660
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 10: out how to reprogram the public's internal algorithm better than

661
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 10: any of her competitors, so that her historical theme doesn't

662
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 10: count against her contemporary fame. She gets to be a

663
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 10: legacy act and irrelevant pop act simultaneously, which is why

664
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 10: I don't expect her fame to fade anytime soon. We

665
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 10: saw this with the re release of her record.

666
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, I was just thinking, we haven't even talked

667
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 7: about which, in some ways I think really helped her popularity,

668
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 7: right because it felt like we kind of hit peak Taylor,

669
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 7: and then the re release has happened and it's like, okay, no,

670
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 7: we're still going up.

671
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 10: That's some people have pointed out that they think had

672
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 10: COVID not happened, Taylor Swift would not have become as

673
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 10: big as she did. Obviously, she was already big, but

674
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 10: her popularity has sort of reached like a peak. And

675
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 10: then during COVID no one could go to concerts. She

676
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 10: puts out these two tomit acclaimed records, Folklore and Evermore

677
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 10: that you know, reprove to people like she's a very

678
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 10: seriously talented songwriter. And then you come out of COVID

679
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 10: and there was a huge demand for live events. She's

680
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 10: gonna put on this career spanning tour, and I think

681
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 10: that's a pretty good theory that she sort of benefited

682
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 10: from all that pent up demand.

683
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: That quote sounds true even with kind of all the

684
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: criticism of the new album's getting where people seem a

685
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: lot of people seem disappointed with it, but like, I

686
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: still don't really see the stuff of like oh I

687
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: wish it sounded like Fearless or whatever, like whatever the

688
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: early YEA classic stuff is, Like I don't see the

689
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: same way with the Like we did an episode on

690
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: Kanye recently and like that very early on he was

691
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: getting like I want college drop out of like basically

692
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: by album three he was getting that, and like that's

693
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: more common than not. Is like people always want the

694
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: classic early thing and like, yeah, I've never really seen

695
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: that with her, even as she shifted from country to

696
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: pop and now to like whatever this new wave of

697
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: her pop is like it's not as much this like rabid,

698
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: like she fell off, you know, even if they are

699
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: disappointed with this album, it's.

700
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 10: Like you don't you don't understand what she's doing.

701
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems like, well, maybe next one she'll

702
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: be back, you know, or whatever. You know. And then

703
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: also in that sub sect post, you compared her to

704
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: Michael Bolton as far as like the timeline.

705
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 5: Can you can you kind of run that back quickly?

706
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, So I was looking for a couple people in

707
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 10: this this piece about you know who who can we

708
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 10: compare Taylor Swift The arc of Taylor Swift's career. Two

709
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 10: Michael Bolton. If you were old enough, you'll recognize him

710
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 10: from like commercials in the nineties where they were selling

711
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 10: love song CDs and it was always how am I

712
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 10: supposed to Live without you? He's singing these big ballads.

713
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 10: But Michael Bolton's career started in the late seventies as

714
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 10: more of like a rock singer, and then he rebranded

715
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 10: himself and he reached the crest of his popularity like

716
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 10: fifteen years later in the nineties. Michael Botlan is in

717
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 10: No way close to as popular as Taylor Swift even

718
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 10: at his peak. Yeah, but like I what I was

719
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 10: trying to get it was the arc of his career,

720
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 10: like peaking later than your average person. Barbara Streisan's.

721
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was the other main one. You comped her.

722
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 10: Two because and again this is just career arc where

723
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 10: barbar streisand's very popular from early in her career. You know,

724
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 10: she's like nineteen or twenty on Broadway putting out platinum records.

725
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 10: But I think her best selling record of all times

726
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 10: she didn't put out until nineteen eighty, which was I

727
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 10: think called Guilty. It was a collaboration with Barry Gibb

728
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 10: from the Beg's. So that's like, you know, twenty years

729
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 10: after your debut, you're releasing your most popular record. That's

730
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 10: not common, and that's something Taylor Swift is doing currently.

731
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 10: Most Like I said, most people, their most popular record

732
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 10: is usually one of their first couple records, and you

733
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 10: usually they're younger than thirty when it happens, not to

734
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 10: make all us thirty year olds, damn.

735
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 6: So it's possible that her most popular song ever isn't

736
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 6: out yet.

737
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 10: Taylor Swift, It's possible. I think over the long term,

738
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 10: it's highly unlikely.

739
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 5: Because she's competing for herself now.

740
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, even if her fans are rabid for new music. Like,

741
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 10: if you're a very passive listener to Taylor Swift, the

742
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 10: songs you probably know are like blank Space, Shake it Off,

743
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 10: you Belong with Me.

744
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 5: That's the best one sounds to me, like like.

745
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: On like the White People list of just like you

746
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: just know all the lyrics to this, like my Osmosis,

747
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: like the Killers Born and.

748
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 11: Yeah, like I just know this, Yeah, Like those are

749
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 11: two where are just like yeah, I just know everywhere

750
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 11: to this. Yeah, we all fall on the in the

751
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 11: group of people who think that, like it's kind of

752
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 11: impossible to compare really, uh, Taylor Swift and Michael Jackson

753
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 11: in terms of fame.

754
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 4: But if you have, I think Michael Jackson's bigger.

755
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 6: Well, you were with the kind of you were describing

756
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 6: how it's like kind of apples and oranges based on

757
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 6: the different environments of today, and.

758
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 10: And uh, yeah, if if you had, if I had

759
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 10: gun your head into my head, Yeah, I'm still I'm

760
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 10: still gonna go with Michael Jackson in this for the

761
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 10: reasons we talked about it earlier, but I mean, Taylor

762
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 10: Swift's up there. It's like you're talking about unimaginable amounts

763
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 10: of fame.

764
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I will say this to Taylor's credit.

765
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 7: I think the the odds are stacked against her in

766
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 7: a lot of ways because of the you know, how

767
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 7: culture is so fractured nowadays. Yeah, like I think, you know,

768
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 7: maybe if you know she was growing up in at

769
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 7: the same time period as Michael Jackson, maybe she would

770
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 7: be bigger.

771
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 5: All right, well, thanks, Chris, if you want to plug

772
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 5: your book one more time.

773
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, well, Uncharted territory with numbers tell us about

774
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 10: the biggest hits, songs and ourselves. It's about how I

775
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 10: listened to every number one hit in history, and I

776
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 10: wrote a data driven history of popular music using that

777
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 10: crazy listening journey.

778
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 5: All right, so we are back.

779
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: So Chris just helpefully explained, you know, kind of how

780
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: music is even measured these days. And I think, you know,

781
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: as best as we could expect, answered our question as

782
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: far as how Taylor compares to Michael Jackson and others.

783
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 5: What do you guys think? Are you satisfied? I think so.

784
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 6: I mean we I think all three of us kind

785
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 6: of agreed that Michael Jackson is a bigger, more famous person.

786
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 6: I definitely had a little bit of like, well, I

787
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 6: wouldn't be surprised to learn something new here. When he

788
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 6: was talking about how Michael Jackson's tour like demographics were

789
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 6: just so much more diverse than that.

790
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: That was a big thing to me that that confirmed

791
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: kind of what my intuition was was just like the

792
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: internetal effects. Yeah, when he's playing out the tour dates

793
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: and it's like he's barely even coming, he's not even

794
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: playing in the continental United.

795
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 5: States, doesn't need to Like that's a different level.

796
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: And like, obviously, yeah, anytime he could, he could just

797
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: be like I'm going to play Madison Square Garden for

798
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: three years, you know what I mean, Like.

799
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 5: He could have done that at any point.

800
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 7: Something that came to mind for me that you remember,

801
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 7: there used to be a debate and I think this

802
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 7: is pretty much settled now. At one point, and I

803
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 7: would say I was on the other side of this

804
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 7: debate at the time, was like who is bigger, Beyonce

805
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 7: or Taylor Swift. I think it's to say now that

806
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 7: Taylor Swift is bigger. I think some of that is

807
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 7: like Beyonce, I think intentionally like, yeah, it's making music

808
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 7: and has decided artistically to like move in a direction

809
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 7: that isn't as broad.

810
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 5: Not focused on just getting the pop.

811
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 4: And that's contributed to it.

812
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 7: But at one point I would fight you on like

813
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 7: obviously Beyonce is, even if her music doesn't sell as much,

814
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 7: is more famous.

815
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 5: Yea, and more of a cultural figure. Yes, at that Yeah,

816
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 5: I think probably before I say, pre aerostour.

817
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna yeah, I was gonna say basically

818
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: up to maybe the maybe you could go a little

819
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: earlier than but like, yeah, once we passed like the

820
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine era, like the once we entered the

821
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: true pop star thing, that's when it's like, okay, now

822
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: it's like a contest.

823
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 6: I remember my take from that debate being kind of

824
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 6: the inverse of this one, where I thought Taylor Swift

825
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 6: was probably more popular but that there was no contest

826
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 6: in terms of cultural influence or like impact.

827
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it's basically the single Lady's Video is

828
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: so much more iconic than anything that Taylor Swift which

829
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: is put.

830
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 5: Out, which of what connye Was point was, I mean,

831
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 5: it's like.

832
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: Disagree with his methods, but he was He's right, like,

833
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: you can see one frame of that blur out the

834
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: faces and you know what it is. I don't think

835
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: any tailorshift video really has that, even though I could

836
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: kind of describe some of them, but.

837
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 7: Well, has any video impact of single Ladies and single Lady.

838
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 5: Top five Swift songs?

839
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 6: I don't, which would genuinely I don't know if I

840
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 6: can name five of them. That's why I'm like such

841
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 6: a bad right now, Okay, you got you Belong to Me,

842
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 6: which is a banger from my high school days. Is

843
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 6: reputation a song or just an album.

844
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 7: Counter It's called Endgame, but the song is it's funny

845
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 7: because a reputation, but it's called Dames.

846
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 6: Okay, okay, and what about does this album count?

847
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 5: Probably?

848
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 6: Okay, this sounds all right, then I could probably do it. Uh,

849
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 6: We're actually romantic, which is the Charlie XCX disc Redwood,

850
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 6: which is about Travis Kelsey's deck.

851
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 5: It's not damn, man, just damn. I can't even folklore evermore.

852
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 4: All right, we're gonna go out one song from Life

853
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 4: of a Showgirl. What song are we gonna play?

854
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 5: I like open Light?

855
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 4: Okay? Or yeah?

856
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 5: I think that's the one.

857
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 4: I like, Let's do Let's do twenty seconds ol.

858
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: Hell's Hell's, Hell's, Hell's Hells.

859
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: No such Thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our

860
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: executive producers are Kid Osborne and Mangeshkidur. The show is

861
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph. Theme

862
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: and credits song by Manny Fidel. Mixing is by Steve Bone.

863
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: Our guest this week is Chris Dalaiva. Find the link

864
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 1: to his newsletter and his upcoming book in the show

865
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: notes below. Thank you, Chris, and special thanks to Irene

866
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: Kim and her swifty friends. Visit No Such Thing dot

867
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 1: show to subscribe to our newsletter for more about this episode,

868
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: and if you have feedback for us or a question,

869
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: our email is Manny Noah Devin at gmail dot com.

870
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: You can also leave us a voicemail by calling the

871
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: number in our show notes. And if you've made it

872
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: this far and don't hate us, please leave a five

873
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: star review and write something nice about us.

874
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 5: Wherever you're listening to this, it really helps a lot.

875
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 5: We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks

876
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 5: for listening.

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00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: Hells Hell's not such a thing.