1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. This is a story about a spy and 2 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: a murderer. I first heard about it a few years 3 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: ago when I was reading a book about Massad, the 4 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: Israeli spy agency. I do a lot of that reading 5 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: about espionage. I've always loved spies. At one point, I'd 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: even wanted to be one. When I graduated from college, 7 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: I thought about applying to the c I A. Some 8 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: of my classmates were doing it, and I thought, why not. 9 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: Maybe I could live in a foreign city, Berlin or Cairo. 10 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: It would be an adventure. But then I realized I'd 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: make a pretty terrible spy. First of all, I'm not 12 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: really good at keeping secrets. I'm not especially good under 13 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: pressure either, And some of the questionable things that the 14 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: CIA had done around the world, Yeah, that played a 15 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: role too. So instead, I joined the Miami Herald newspaper 16 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: and became a journalist. Years later, I ended up writing 17 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: about spies, even a couple of books. I loved their world. 18 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: The idea of one man or one woman playing this 19 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: invisible role in history and doing it with a kind 20 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: of flare. Espionage is important, but it's also just cool. 21 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: So in this book, I was reading about Massad a 22 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: few years ago. The author mentioned in operation I'd never 23 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: heard about. It was unlike any of the missions I 24 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: had studied in a few important ways. My first thought was, 25 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: this is weird. I was immediately hooked. I think it's 26 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: fair to say that in the history of espionage, this 27 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: case of the undercover agent and the man known as 28 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: the book Ture of Latvia is unique. It still has 29 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: all the things that fascinate me about spies, the tradecraft, 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: letters in invisible ink, intrigue in places around the world, 31 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: in this case Paris, Tel Aviv, Berlin, Montevideo, Uruguay, and 32 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: Rio de Janeiro. There were recondissions, disguises, fake passports, shooting contests, 33 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: a kill team training in a specially martial arts called 34 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: krav magaw. There was a body and a leather trunk, 35 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: and a drug that one agent takes so he doesn't 36 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: sweat and appear nervous. There's a psychiatrist who tries to 37 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: psychoanalyze Nazis Hitler even makes an appearance. But there are 38 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: even otter things too. What makes this story so different, 39 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: first of all, is that it's about an assassination plot, 40 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: which are usually bad things. When I think of assassinations. 41 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: I think of some awful moments history. I think about 42 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald and Deely Plaza in Dallas, President of 43 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: the United States, and as he turned left, two or 44 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: three shots rang up Sir Han, Sir Hand and Robert 45 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: Kennedy lying in a pool of blood. Martin Good. I 46 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: think about Jeans Ray and Martin Luther King Jr. On 47 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: the balcony of the Lorraine Motel, Memphis. I have some 48 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: very sad news for all of you, and that is 49 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: that Martin Luther King and was shot and was killed 50 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: tonight and the start of World War One when an 51 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: assassin killed the Archduke Franz Ferdinand. But this was something different. 52 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: This was the story of the spy was going to 53 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: try and kill someone for a very good reason, to 54 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: prevent crimes against humanity, and to close the chapter on 55 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: something that happened in the spy's own life. This mission 56 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: was personal, at least the agent who was the lead operative. 57 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: His name was Mio. Again, this is unique. Spy missions 58 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: are never personal. They're not supposed to be. They're supposed 59 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: to be clinical, unemotional. This operation was like that for 60 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: some of its architects. But it wasn't like that at 61 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: all for MEO. It also had a target who had 62 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: first read seems completely evil. His name was Herbert Suckers, 63 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: and he betrayed people who had once spend his friends 64 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: and neighbors. He led them to their desks at gunpoint 65 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: and sometimes killed them point blank. The machine gun he 66 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: had on his hands the blood of literally thousands of 67 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: innocent victims. These were people, some of whom had really 68 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: admired Herbert Suckers, thought of him as a hero, which, 69 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: oddly enough, he'd once been. All of this is wrapped 70 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: up in World War Two and the Holocaust and genocide law. 71 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: The effects of the mission are still with us today. 72 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: It's had this secret impact on our lives that nobody 73 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: really knows about. I couldn't get this story out of 74 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: my head, so I wrote a book about it. It's 75 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: called The Good Assassin. After the book was published in 76 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: two thousand nine, honestly, I thought I was done with 77 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing. It's spent two years looking into the mission, 78 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: traveling to Israel, interviewing MASSAD agents, pouring through archives in 79 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: Latvia and Brazil and Israel, totally immersing myself. I was 80 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: done with it. What else was there to say. Apparently 81 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: something Because I kept thinking about the main characters. I 82 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: had questions about them, puzzles I hadn't been able to 83 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: solve in the book. But I just couldn't get out 84 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: of my head. And my book had brought people out 85 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: of the woodwork were contacting me, giving me new information, 86 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: things I'd never heard before. But we're slowly helping me 87 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: to peel away the layers and get closer to the 88 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: core of this story. At first, I thought, forget it. 89 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: No way am I going back to all that. The 90 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: Nazis crimes were so horrible. I didn't want to revisit them. 91 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,119 Speaker 1: I didn't want to wait through all that violence again. 92 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: But after a few months I changed my mind. Maybe 93 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: I could solve those puzzles that were still bothering me, 94 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: put them to rest. I realized I had to try, 95 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: So that's why I'm here doing this podcast. I'm glad actually, 96 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: because the story of the Hunt for the Butcher of 97 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,119 Speaker 1: Latvia wasn't what I thought it was. It was even 98 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: stranger than I had first imagined. What I found surprised me. 99 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the spy. His real 100 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: name was Yakov, my dad, but everyone called him Mio. 101 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: And there are a few things you should know about 102 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: Mio right off the bat. First of all, he was Jewish. 103 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: He'd grown up in Germany in the thirties as Hitler 104 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: was just beginning to gain power. As a young boy, 105 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: Mio so Nazis marching in the streets. He listened as 106 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: his teachers began repeating Hitler's lies. It seemed to him 107 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: that violence was in the air. The mission in Brazil 108 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: and later Puruguay was so personal for me, or because 109 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: of his childhood, because of his background. That's Gad Shimron. 110 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: He's a former Massad agent who knew me. Oh well. 111 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: I met him in Tel Aviv when I went to 112 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: research this story. No, I mean he was born in 113 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: so that's called What's up time. It was a German 114 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: town to a very German Jewish family. I mean, his 115 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: father was a very famous doctor, wearing the iron cross 116 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: of the Germany Burial Army and for his gallant service 117 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: in the First World War as a medical officer on 118 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: the front Light and his parents regarden themselves as pure Germans, 119 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: Jewish Germans, but Germans. And when the Nazis came to 120 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: Barrow in thirty three, and the father said, nothing he's 121 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: going to happen to me, because I'm what they call 122 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: it German front kempt further, which means frontline soldier, and 123 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: he felt, you know that in the it's a wave 124 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: of anti Semitism, but it will it will die away, 125 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: and nothing will happen me. On the other hand, as 126 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: a teenager he went to school, he was exposed to 127 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: the terrible expressions of anti Semitism and investigations of Jews, 128 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: and he came to his parses said I'm not going 129 00:08:51,040 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: to stay here, I'm going away. So Mea was worried. 130 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: He didn't want to be in Germany anymore. He saw 131 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: bad things coming. He asked his parents if he could leave, 132 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: and finally, when he become a teenager, they let him 133 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: go to Palestine, which would later become Israel. Then they 134 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: managed to arrange for him a scholarship in a very 135 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: good and famous high school in Haifa, and Mio went 136 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: away at the age of what he was fourteen maybe fifteen, 137 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: went away from his family alone to a new country 138 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: with a new language, with a new atmosphere and friends, etcetera. 139 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: And he grew up in this and h then the 140 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: Second World broke out, so Mio spent the years before 141 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: World War Two safe and sound. When the war came, 142 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: he volunteered for the British Army and saw some action, 143 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: but he never made it back to Germany. His parents 144 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: sent me a postcards letting in know they were okay. 145 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: They were still in Germany, hoping for the best. But 146 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: then the postcard stopped and Meal knew that something had 147 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: gone terribly wrong. And all his correspondence and the vacation 148 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: this family was cut off, but totally, and only later 149 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: after the war he learned that his parents were both 150 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: of them were burned in Nazi concentration camps. And it's 151 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: true that you know the Nazist game his father the 152 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: honor of because it was iron cross the front. Kemper 153 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: the game in the honor of being on the last 154 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: transports being sent from breast Law to the concentration camps. 155 00:10:43,800 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: I think in night Meal always regretted not being able 156 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: to help his mother and father escape. He had nightmares 157 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: about them. He was a private guy, so it's not 158 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: like he would tell you about it, but that feeling 159 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: of not being there when his parents needed him most, 160 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: it never left him. After his military career was over. 161 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: Mea was recruited by Massad, these really spy agency. He 162 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: was a patriot, so he agreed to join. I'm Steven 163 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: Talty and this is good assassin's hunting the butcher. So 164 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: he's the first months to find and not being put 165 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: forward trial, the second thought, most to find, and lastly 166 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: and healing. We must swoll was this shameful causes the 167 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: end of a trail of blood and horror, the end 168 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: of a man whose name will be written in it 169 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: for me Episode one, The Spy and the Murderer. The 170 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: second thing you should know about Meo was that he 171 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: didn't look like a spy. I mean he really didn't. 172 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: At the time our story takes place the mid sixties, 173 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: he was in his forties. He was overweight, he was 174 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: balden ing. He looked maybe like an accountant or a 175 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: vice president of a bank. And when he spoke, his 176 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: voice was a little high. He was shy, and he 177 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: found it hard to talk to people. If you got 178 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: to look at him, you wouldn't be impressed. Even Mio's 179 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: son told me that when I met him in Israel, 180 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: he'd walk right past my father. He said, I never 181 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: think twice about at it. In the early sixties, MASSAD 182 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: was just beginning to gain a reputation around the world. 183 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: Its operatives were tough, physically fit, methodical. Some of their 184 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: missions were controversial, and they remained controversial today, but very 185 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: few people doubted that their agents were among the best 186 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: in the world lethal when they had to be. That 187 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: wasn't meo, It just wasn't a skill set. His skill 188 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: set was looking boring anonymous. When he assumed a false 189 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: identity for a mission, that became his real identity. Mia 190 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: was known for diving into his cover stories with conviction. 191 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: That was a little scary. His son told me that 192 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: when Mio left on a mission, he wasn't their father anymore. 193 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: He become this different person. That Meal was a legend. 194 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: Here's get him wrong again, Gad. He looks like a spy. 195 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: He's tall, lean, handsome. If he played a secret agent 196 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: in a movie, you'd believe it. In our conversation, Gad 197 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: stressed one thing about me, how he could disappear into 198 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: a character. He had this special characteristic of being able 199 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: to dive into the person he was supposed to be 200 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: for this mission, which is not that easy. You know, 201 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: people don't understand how difficult it is to really ignurse 202 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: in yourself all the necessary characteristics for playing the new 203 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: person you are using for the operation and neo. First 204 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: of all, he was, of course it was very intelligent. 205 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: He knew how to improvise what was a good actor. 206 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: But also he had a very good cosmopolitan European background, 207 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: which man. He spoke German fluently, of course, very well English, 208 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: very well French. And they say that he for many 209 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: years he held the Mossade record for a false stolen 210 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: acquired identities. That he had more than a hundred sixty 211 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: different identities during this time. That she's quite a number. 212 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: Some agents hate going undercover. Pretending to be someone else 213 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: can get stressful, especially when one slip could lead to disaster, 214 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: even death. But Meal actually seemed to look forward to 215 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: these kinds of missions. He liked becoming other people. This 216 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: is what Meal had to say about playing a role. 217 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: We've had an actor read me as parts, but these 218 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: are direct quotes in his own words. In my daily life, 219 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: I was quiet, introverted man, not particularly bushy or demanding. 220 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: It's a minute I on the two K a mission 221 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: I would become different person. I felt confident, even assertive, 222 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: and had the capacity to strike up conversations and gain 223 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: the trust of people that I met. So Meo didn't 224 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: look like a spy, but he was really good at 225 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: the work. By the sixties, Mio had made himself into 226 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: one of the best undercover ages in the world, but 227 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: he still had a lot of guilt about what happened 228 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: to his mother and father. He left them at the 229 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: key moment, the pain lingered, and that's what makes the 230 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: next part so hard to believe. Imagine your Meo and 231 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: one day Massad calls you into a meeting. You don't 232 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: know what it's about, but it turns out they have 233 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: a mission for you, a chance to get justice for 234 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: your mother and father and for the other six million 235 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: Jews murdered during the war. The mission is simple, to 236 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: arrange the death of one man, a Nazi killer named 237 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: Herbert Zuckers. Zukers had been an aviation hero before the war. 238 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: People called him the Latvian Lindburgh. In his own way, 239 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: he was just as unusual as Mio was. There's a catch, 240 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: of course. The mission isn't going to be easy. The 241 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: man you're going after is suspicious, like really suspicious. He 242 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: sees assassins around every corner. It's going to be dangerous. 243 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: It's possible that you might not come back. But it 244 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: really is a once in a lifetime chance, something that 245 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: many of us perhaps dream of writing the wrongs of 246 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: the past, a chance in a way, at redemption. So 247 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: bo I was pretty confident. I understood him. Who doesn't 248 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: want a second chance to make things right with your 249 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: loved ones, not to mention the larger picture getting justice 250 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: for the six million. But even after spending all those 251 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: months doing the research for my book, I still didn't 252 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: get the other main character, Herbert Sukers. Yes, he had 253 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: colluded with the Nazis and committed horrible war crimes. But 254 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: why had he changed from this respected pilot would traveled 255 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: to Palestine and even praise what he observed there to 256 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: this monster? What had driven him to transform, to betray 257 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: so many of his countrymen? And importantly, why did Sukers 258 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: have supporters around the world even today? Why did some 259 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: people believe he was innocent? They were certainly critics of 260 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: Assad that said they were wrong to have gone after him. 261 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: Sucers was a puzzle, a dark, twisted puzzle, and I 262 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: had to figure him out. So let me tell you 263 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: about that meeting where Mio learned about the operation, the 264 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 1: meeting that changed Meal's life. Of course, spy missions are secret, 265 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: that's kind of the point. But in looking into this 266 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: operation I found something odd. Years afterwards, Mio talked publicly 267 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: about it. Massad must have given their permission. How he 268 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: convinced them to do that, I have no idea. It's 269 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: very rare for any spy agency, let alone Massad, to 270 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: sign off on an agent telling their secrets. But you'll 271 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: hear his words and that of the other agents, and 272 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: even the target. We've got an actress to read some 273 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: of their words where recordings aren't available for once, you'll 274 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: get to hear the inside story of a spy mission 275 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: from beginning to end. So it's September one, nineteen sixty four, Paris, 276 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: where Mio lives. The meeting is set for that morning. 277 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: September is a great time to be in France. It's 278 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: cool and everyone has just returned from their August holiday, 279 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: so everyone has a little color. He refreshed. Meo walked 280 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: the streets on his way to the meeting. He was 281 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: enjoying the day. He was also looking for tales during 282 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: the Cold War Paris wasn't the favorite city for spies. 283 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 1: That was probably Berlin. The city was still populated by 284 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: operatives from many different agencies, and Mio had to make 285 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: sure none of them was following him. Neo stopped in 286 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: front of the Radio France building checked out the pedestrians 287 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: people lingering on steps. When he was satisfied that he 288 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: wasn't being tailed, he started walking again. He found the 289 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 1: building he was looking for. He was on the Avenue 290 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: day Verside, a beautiful boulevard, one of the city's richest neighborhoods. 291 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: He ducked into the lobby, waved at the concierge, and 292 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: went up to the apartment where his boss was waiting. 293 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: Joseph your Ree met him at the door. Uri was 294 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: the head of Massad's Special operations unit code named Cesarea. 295 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: Caesaria still exists today. It's an elite undercover unit that 296 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: plants agents in foreign countries. It sends its men on 297 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: sabotage missions, and it plans and carries out targeted killings 298 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: of those that Israel considers to be its enemies. It's 299 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: secret and what it does is highly classified. Youri was 300 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: a charming guy, very loyal. He had lots of friends. 301 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: He was popular inside Massad. He knew how to work 302 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: a room. Nea was the opposite. He was an outsider 303 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: at the agency and it bothered him. When he opened 304 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: the door, he read said something strange. From this moment onwards. 305 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: Your name is Anton Kunzla with a battle style to 306 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: getting used to it. Neo didn't say anything. As I 307 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: mentioned before, he was a quiet guy. He walked into 308 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: the room and saw another agent, Michael not his real name, 309 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: sitting at a small table. He nodded to Michael sat 310 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: down towards some coffee. You, Reid followed. The three sipped 311 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: the coffee before getting down to business. You reeve got 312 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: it started. You must be wondering why I summoned you 313 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: him and in such a heavy we have received final 314 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: confirmation about the Nazi woe criminal who lives in one 315 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: of the South American countries. Israel had decided to hunt 316 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: down one of the Holocaust's most savage killers. The target 317 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: was Herbert Suckers. He was a Latvian in the small 318 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: country that sits between Russia and Germany. I'll tell you 319 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: more about Sukers in the next episode. But even though 320 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: he became a war criminal, He'd led a fascinating life 321 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: before World War Two. He'd been a world class aviator, 322 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: the Latvian Lindbergh. He'd flown aircraft he'd built himself through 323 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: sand and snowstorms all the way to the East coast 324 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: of Africa, Japan, the Middle East. He was brave, adventurous. 325 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: But that was before the war. When the Germans invaded, 326 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: Zukers had changed. According to Massad, he'd become a beast, 327 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: a mass murderer. He helped Hitler's forces killed thirty thousand 328 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: Jewish men, women and children, and actions that wiped out 329 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: over of Latvia's Jews. The survivors gave him a name 330 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: after the war, the Butcher of Latvia, and Massad had 331 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: decided to hunt him down. There was another reason for 332 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: the mission, which I'll get into a little later. It's 333 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: something that I found almost unbelievable, a part of history 334 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: that seems so bizarre to me that it couldn't have 335 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: been ill. But in nineteen sixty four, the Israelis decided 336 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: that Herbert Sukers had to die. Your Reef gave MEO 337 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: a little background on the butcher. He fled to Brazil 338 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: ninety six after the war ended, with his wife and children, 339 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: and one unexpected guest I'll tell you about later. Your 340 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: reef told the two agents that the butcher was living 341 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: in a house sal Paulo. You know, a small boat 342 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: rental business. The cater to the locals and to tourists. 343 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: Meal listened to your reef talk. He looked calm. You 344 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: always looked calm. But he wasn't calm. He was thinking 345 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: about the past. I felt my health race and my 346 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: adrenaline level skyrocket. Suddenly, so many different thoughts ran through 347 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: my mind. I released a deep breath. Having been born 348 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: in Germany and having lost both parents in the Holocaust, 349 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: I needed no lengthy, detailed explanations of that terrible time. 350 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: My father, a well known doctor in our hometown, served 351 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: during the First World War as a medical officer in 352 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: the Prussian Army, and for his service in the cruel 353 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: battles of Balato on the Western Front, he was awarded 354 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: the Iron Cross. This fact did not stop the Nazis 355 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: from sending him to his death entat concentration camp. My 356 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: mother was deported to Auschwitz, where she was murdered as 357 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: part of what the Nazis and their battles turned the 358 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: final solution to the Jewish problem. For me, Oh, this 359 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: would be a mission unlike any of the others had 360 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: gone on. This was personal. He knew that MISSAD didn't 361 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: carry out many operations against escape war criminals. Israel was 362 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: only sixteen years old at the time, and there are 363 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: other things to worry about, mainly its own survival. The 364 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: agency didn't have time to settle old scores. In fact, 365 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: this would be the first time we know about that. 366 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: His spies were going to set out to kill a 367 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: Nazi war criminal at a Fike men they kidnapped, but 368 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: Sucers they were determined to kill you. Reeve added some 369 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: more details. Sucers was six or four years old, but 370 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: he was still a powerful guy, built like a tank. 371 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: You reve described him to the two men. You will 372 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: face a criminal who is, according to our boats, miss dustful, 373 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: ruthless and dangerous, and he's always prepelled for the worst. 374 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: That was true, as Mio would later find out, Sucers 375 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: imagine Jewish agents around every corner. To carry out the mission, 376 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: Neo had to get close to this guy to form 377 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: a real relationship, maybe even a friendship. This was deeply 378 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: painful for him. The butcher was exactly the kind of 379 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: man who forced his parents to the concentration camps. But 380 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: why didn't sad mates man dead? There were thousands of 381 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: ex Nazis walking around Europe South America. Why zookers and 382 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: why now you read got to that you wanted Meo 383 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: and Michael to know the reason that the butcher had 384 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: to die. At that particular time, he started talking about 385 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: an anniversary that was approaching in about eight months. On 386 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: May eight, the world will mount the twenty years since 387 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: the victory of the Nazi Germany, and there are already 388 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: voices and not in Germany alone, would say that it 389 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: is time to look forward, to do a line under 390 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: the events of the past, to forget the Nazis and 391 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: to apply the statute of limitations to the crimes. That 392 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: was the real reason for the mission. It turns out 393 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: that in the German government had decided that all cases 394 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: of murder would be given a twenty year statute of limitations. 395 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: If you killed someone, state would have twenty years to 396 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: open a case against you. If they didn't, you were 397 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: free forever. You couldn't be indicted, you couldn't be prosecuted, 398 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: and you couldn't go to jail. Of course, in the 399 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: government had no idea that someone named Hitler would be 400 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: born in Austria and that the Holocaust would happen, and 401 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: that six million Jews and millions of other victims would 402 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: be murdered by their successors. They couldn't imagine something like 403 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: the Third Reich was beyond them. The kinds of murders 404 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: they imagined were the kind we know today, crimes of passion, 405 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: one person killing another person, not of greed or momentary 406 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: rage or whatever, what you might call a garden variety murder, 407 00:27:46,480 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: not Auschwitz m But by nineteen sixty four, the Germans 408 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: had grown tired of hearing about the war. There had 409 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: been the Nuremberg trials in and there had been others 410 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: since then. The guilty had been punished. In their view, 411 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: people wanted to move on. Opinion polls showed that fifty 412 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: seven percent of Germans were in favor of the Statute 413 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: of Limitations. All it had to do was pass the 414 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: German Parliament and it would become law. But Israel's leaders 415 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: were determined that this would not happen. They protested to 416 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: the German government, but that really went nowhere. You Reef 417 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: told me that they believed the statute was going to pass, 418 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: and that meant two things. Any escape Nazi hiding in 419 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: Europe or in South America, and some people believe there 420 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: were thousands of them, would go free. They could never 421 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: be brought to trial. This included the worst of the worst, 422 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: the actual killers who shot us at the pits and 423 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: put them into the gas chambers. I found this whole 424 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: backstory to be a little surreal. Honestly, I had no 425 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: idea that Germany's leaders had ever thought about doing this. 426 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: It seemed incredible to me that they seriously considered giving 427 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: an amnesty to mass killers. But they did. And Massad 428 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: and many others suspected that if the statute passed, it 429 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: would be a signal to start winding down the trials 430 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: of the Nazi war criminals who had been indicted. It 431 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: would be the end of the hunt for those responsible Germany. 432 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: They just wanted to forget. They wanted the guilt and 433 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: the stories of what happened at the camps to be over. 434 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: So this is why Israel had come up with the mission. 435 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: Your reefs started talking about the statute and he got 436 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: a little emotional. It is absolutely inconceivable that tens of 437 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: thousands of Nazi war criminals who never paid for the 438 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: Reinos crimes should now be able to call out of 439 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: their hiding holes and spend their best of their lives 440 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: in peace and tranquility. It's been only twenty years since 441 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: the release of the survivors of the Death Games, and 442 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: we owe it to them and to the six million 443 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 1: who did not survive and are unable to avenge themselves. 444 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: We must thwart this shameful process of the Statute of Limitations. Hi, 445 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: this is Stephen Talty, host of Good Assassins Hunting the Butcher. 446 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: The folks that help me bring you the show, Diversion Podcasts, 447 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: have just launched another podcast that I think you'll like. 448 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: It's called Backstaged The Devil in Metal, a deep dive 449 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: into the history of metal music, filled with never before 450 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: heard interviews and stories from some of the biggest names 451 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 1: of music, including Black Sabbath to this priest, Ben Helen, 452 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: and many others. It's outrageous, raw and surprising at times. 453 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: Backstage The Devil in Medal is out now. Follow the 454 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, I Hired Radio app or wherever 455 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: you listen to your podcasts. You've obviously felt the mission 456 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: was justified, but he admitted it was something of a 457 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: long shot. First, Mio had to get to Zukers, this 458 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: ex soldier who went around armed and on the lookout 459 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: for exactly what meal was a MASSAD agent to trust him. Second, 460 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: get him out of Brazil. Third, he had to get 461 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: him to Chile or Uruguay on some pretext and lead 462 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: him into a trap where the killed team was waiting. Finally, 463 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: the entire team had to get out of the country 464 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: without getting caught. After Zukers was dead, Massad would announce 465 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: it to the world, reminding everyone, particularly people in Germany, 466 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: that these kinds of Nazi monsters were still out there. 467 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: The agency had to do this before the Statute of 468 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: Limitations came up for debate the German Parliament the following March. 469 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: That gave them about six months, and then they had 470 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: a hope that the publicity and the shocking crimes that 471 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: the butcher had committed would convince enough German legislators that 472 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: the amnesty could not happen. The Statute of Limentations would 473 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: be voted down. That was the end game. It was 474 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: a pretty long string of things to happen in a row. 475 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: If the chain was broken, at any point the operation 476 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: would fail, but it was the best idea that Massad had. 477 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: If we're succeed in the operation we are now preparing, 478 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: will once again put the feel of death into the 479 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: hearts of tens of thousands of Nazi war criminals. We'll 480 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: do everything in our power to make the rest of 481 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: their lives miserable. They will feel their own shadow, they 482 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: will not dare to leave their homes, and they will 483 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: have continuous night mills of anonymous assassins, the offspring of 484 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: of innocent victims seeking their revenge. This was interesting to me. 485 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: You Reeve was saying that even if Massad carried out 486 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: the mission and the Germans still went ahead with the statute, 487 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: the death of Herbert Sucres would have meaning because it 488 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: would serve as a warning any Nazi killers could never 489 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: be sure they would be safe again. So it would 490 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: be a kind of life sentence of fear, of waiting 491 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: for the knock on the door. But that was a 492 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: pale imitation of what the survivors and millions of other 493 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: people around the world really wanted, true justice. The men 494 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: went over some other details you Reeve talked about suckers crimes. 495 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: I'll get to those things in episode two, because we 496 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: actually have the testimonies of survivors describing what they saw, 497 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: and I'd like you to hear them. You Reeve didn't 498 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: mention one more thing. He pointed out that there was 499 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: a difference between other Nazi fugitives like Ada Aikman and 500 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: people like Herbert Sukers. Aikman was one of the masterminds 501 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: of the Holocaust, but he never shot anyone. He had 502 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: gone to visit concentration camps, but he kept his distance 503 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: from the victims. He didn't have actual blood on his hands. 504 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: But Sucris was at the opposite end of that spectrum. 505 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: According to your reeve, he shot women and children, among 506 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: other things. We are dealing here with the despicable saddist 507 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: who actually enjoyed torturing his victims and meldling innocent people. 508 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: And this Sokos as the ROOTSBA to give interviews to 509 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: Brazilian magazines and claimed that he is innocent, that he 510 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: has no idea what anyone would want with him, and 511 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: after telling everyone about his innocence, he prays his s 512 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 1: S uniform with great pride before the Commons. This is true, 513 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: and it's one of the crazy details that drew me 514 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: to this story. Most Scape war criminals changed their names 515 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: when they fled to South America or other countries. Herbert 516 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: Sucers didn't. He not only arrived in Brazil under his 517 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: own name, he actually sought out Jewish leaders in Rio, 518 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: told them how he'd saved some of their people during 519 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: the war. We'll get to that part. But I couldn't 520 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: believe it when I first heard it. Every other Nazi 521 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: on the run I've ever heard about had assumed a 522 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: false identity. Joseph Mengela went by the name Wolfgang Gerhardt. 523 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 1: Aikman had called himself Ricardo Clement when he was living 524 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: in Argentina. It was common sense if you were one 525 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: of the most wanted men in the world, the first 526 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: thing you did was find a new identity. But the 527 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: butcher apparently didn't do that. Could he have been so 528 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: delusional or so self confident that he hadn't even bothered 529 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: to get a fake passport? It seemed incredible to me. 530 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: So the butcher wasn't only guilty in the eyes of 531 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: Israel's leaders. He was laughing at them, taunting the survivors. 532 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: Why would seekers do that? Some of his supporters actually 533 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: pointed to this fact to prove his innocence. Why would 534 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: a guilty man keep his own name if he'd done 535 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: such terrible things. At this point, it seemed to me 536 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: that Sucers was either innocent or mentally unstable in some way. 537 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: Maybe the risk taking that had made him into the 538 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 1: Latvian Lindbergh had also made him reckless later in life. 539 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: I just didn't know. There was one other reason I 540 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: found later on that Suckers had been chosen as the 541 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: Massad's target. Months before Mio went to that Paris apartment, 542 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: a meeting had been held in Israel the leaders of 543 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: the various intelligence agencies. The subject was Nazi officers who 544 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: still remained at large. During the meeting, someone read out 545 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: the list of escape criminals. When he got to Herbert Suckers, 546 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: the head of the country's military intelligence Directorate collapsed. His 547 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: name was a Haran Yariev. He wasn't in a relation 548 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: to Joseph your Reeve, Mio's boss. It turned out that 549 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: this man's family had lived in Latvia when the war came, 550 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: and the butcher had helped murder them. This personal reaction 551 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: helped move Suker's name to the top of the list. 552 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: He was a mass killer. He apparently had no remorse, 553 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: His whereabouts were publicly known, and he had killed the 554 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: loved ones of someone high up in the Israeli government. 555 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: He was perfect in a way. Zukers would be the 556 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: representative of all the Holocaust killers. The meeting in Paris 557 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: was coming to an end, but before the three men 558 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: went their separate ways, there was one last question they 559 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: had to decide. Would Mio go on the mission alone? 560 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: For would Massad send a small stocking and protection unit 561 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: with him. Mio spoke up immediately, I prefer to work alone. 562 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: I'd rather work without tales or protection. My god feeling 563 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: tells me, said, such an operation can be carried out 564 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: only alone, me against the target. Mio would later say 565 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: a big team could have endangered the mission. Suckers was paranoid. 566 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: Why give him a reason to believe he was being 567 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: followed by a bunch of dark haired men who just 568 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: might turn out to be Israelis. There was probably another reason, 569 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: as I later found out, but I'll save that for 570 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: another episode. When Mio was actually in South America. The 571 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: last thing you reeve did wu show MEO the files 572 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: on Sukers. It was, I wrote in my book a 573 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: thin stack of pages, thin due to the fact that 574 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: so few Jews had been left alive to speak about 575 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: Herbert Suckers. These pages represented about half a dozen testimonies. 576 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: The exact number isn't known. The tray Suckers crimes during 577 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: the war collected from eyewitnesses during the late nineteen forties 578 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: and early fifties. Some of these accounts were barbaric, others 579 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: oddly moving. In one story, Zuker speaks to a young 580 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: girl in Yiddish. They have a short pleasant conversation before Zukers, 581 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: for no apparent reason, pulls out his handgun and executes 582 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: her in cold blood. In another account, Zucker saves a 583 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: woman that he knew to be Jewish, risking his own 584 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: life to do so. This collection of testimonies added up 585 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: to a curiously fractured, incomplete portrait of Herbert Suckers, whose 586 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: life had been larger and stranger than NEO could have 587 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: ever imagined at that first meeting. It would take many 588 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: years and the survival of one obsessed Jewish woman to 589 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: tell it in full. One survivor later wrote, Zuckers is 590 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: a fascinating historical figure full of tremendous contradictions. Before they left, 591 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: the three Massad agents agreed on a code name for Zukers. 592 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: They would be sending telegrams and letters with invisible link 593 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: and you Reave ordered that the butcher's real name not 594 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: be used in any of them. If some of their 595 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: correspondents was discovered, he could be tipped off and the 596 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: mission would be over. So they chose a substitute would 597 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: refer to him as the late one, as in the deceased. 598 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: Was there a little joke? After that the meeting broke up. 599 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: Mio strolled back to his apartment in Paris, where his 600 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 1: family was living at the time. He had to tell 601 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: his wife they'd be moving again in case Mio was 602 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: caught in Brazil and exposed as a spy. Massad wanted 603 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 1: his family to change apartments. It was for their own safety. 604 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: His wife had been through this before. Being in Massad 605 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 1: meant that he'd often be gone from months at a time. 606 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: He missed birthdays anniversaries was part of the job. So 607 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: that was the mission. Mia was to travel to Brazil 608 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: impersonating an Austrian businessman named Anton kunz La. There he 609 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: would get to know Herbert Sukers. How Yurev didn't say 610 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: that would be up to Mio. He then had to 611 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: get the butcher to leave the country and travel to 612 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 1: another part of South America where the other team members 613 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: would be waiting. Reason it had to be another country 614 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: was blowback. If Israel assassinated the butcher in Brazil, there 615 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: were thousands of Jews living there who might suffer the 616 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: consequences threats, bombings, whatever. And if the Brazilian police caught 617 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: Meo or one of the other agents, that would be 618 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: a disaster too. It was a right wing military government 619 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: who knew what they might do. They might hang Meo 620 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: or put him in jail for decades. Either of those 621 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: would be an embarrassment for Israel. They didn't want that 622 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: to happen. Meanwhile, six thousand miles away, Herbert Sucres was 623 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: tending to his boats and a small marina on a 624 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,479 Speaker 1: man made lake in South Pawlo. Winter in the Southern 625 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: Hemisphere was almost over. He was hoping the summer would 626 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: make him some money. He had no idea who Mio 627 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: was or that the Massad was after him. But the 628 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: butcher did know one thing, or he believed it. He 629 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: leave that his victims had not forgotten him. Four years before, 630 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 1: Sod had kidnapped Adolph Eichmann and Argentina put him on trial. 631 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: I mean, who escaped the normery more trials by playing no, 632 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: South America receives justice and the hands and the people 633 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: who will be unabled. The kidnapping had scared Sukers. He 634 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: put a barbed wire around his house, bought a German 635 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: shepherd to patrol it. He assembled the collection of guns 636 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: to protect himself. He's basically living inside a fortress. But 637 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: Seekers went further. He went to the Brazilian intelligence agency 638 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: to appeal for protection. They were called DPS, and they 639 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: had a bad reputation for kidnapping and killing anyone who 640 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: posed the military regime. After his visit, Brazil issued a 641 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,839 Speaker 1: warning to anyone that might think of kidnapping Seekers. This 642 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: would not be tolerated. They were talking to Israel. Your 643 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 1: reeve had warned me Oh that his target was on guard. 644 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: In fact, it went way by on that. At one 645 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 1: point before the operation began, Suckers had promised his family 646 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: that he was ready if the MSSAD comes after me. 647 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: He told them, I will die before I let them win. 648 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: Meo had been warned, but he really had no idea 649 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:31,879 Speaker 1: of who he was actually going up against. Good assassins. 650 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: Hunting the Butcher is a production of Diversion Podcasts in 651 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: association with I Heart Radio. This season is written and 652 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: hosted by Stephen Tulti, produced and directed by Scott Waxman 653 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: and Jacob Bronstein. Executive producers Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. 654 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: Story editing by Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction from Scott 655 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: Waxman and Mongesh At ticket Or Editing, mixing and sound 656 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,720 Speaker 1: designed by Mark Francis with the voices of Armory Angele, 657 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: Andrew Polk, Steve Rautman, and Stefan Drudnitsky. Theme music by 658 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: Tyler Cash. Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Special thanks to 659 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: Oran Rosenbaum at U t A