Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you
Speaker 1: by the disappearance of my neighbors. Instead, it's brought to
Speaker 1: you by somebody who might be able to find my neighbors,
Speaker 1: or maybe not, or is responsible for their disappearance. Gosh,
Speaker 1: I hope not. Anyway, it's a pet from your local shelter.
Speaker 1: It could be a dog, it could be a cat,
Speaker 1: it could be a horse, it could be a parakeet.
Speaker 1: Who knows what kind of thing you could find there,
Speaker 1: But that thing I know you will find there is love.
Speaker 1: So you can adopt from a shelter, or you can
Speaker 1: volunteer your time, or you can donate money because they
Speaker 1: always need more money to take care of all the
Speaker 1: pets that are looking for their wonderful forever homes. So donate,
Speaker 1: spend time, adopt, find my neighbors. Hi there, Welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host, Joe, joined
Speaker 1: as always by Steve and Devin. Yeah, and of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: another mystery. Okay, another week, another mystery. Alright, So this
Speaker 1: week we've got a really intriguing story for you guys.
Speaker 1: I know it sounds like he's sarcastic, but it's true.
Speaker 1: This is actually an interesting story. It actually it's kind
Speaker 1: of an interesting story. I'm actually glad that you've covered
Speaker 1: this one, Joe, because I have read up on this
Speaker 1: multiple times and have been so baffled. I wasn't ready
Speaker 1: to dig into it. So I'm glad you picked it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I finally and I got into it, and I
Speaker 1: was convinced of kind of leaning towards one thing, and
Speaker 1: I started started leading towards another thing, you know, but
Speaker 1: by the time I was done looking at it, you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting when it happens. Yeah. Oh, a
Speaker 1: quick warning with this, this story does depict some torture
Speaker 1: and unpleasant things like that. So again, if you have
Speaker 1: little leers see a doctor, if you've got a kid around,
Speaker 1: then you might want to like turn it off till
Speaker 1: the kids not here anymore. But so you probably want
Speaker 1: to know what the mystery is. That's and they'll come
Speaker 1: up right after this break, Okay, just can What we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about is a strange death of Colonel Philip Shoe,
Speaker 1: who was in the Air Force and stationed at Laughlan
Speaker 1: Air Force Base in Texas. This happened in two thousand three.
Speaker 1: He died in the car crash, and the circumstances of
Speaker 1: the crash were a little strange. I would say, uh
Speaker 1: if at first it looked like a straight up traffic accident,
Speaker 1: but when the police took a closer look at his body,
Speaker 1: they found evidence that he had been tortured, like and
Speaker 1: not just in the distant past, but like that day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but none. Despite all that, that's kind of hanky if
Speaker 1: you ask me, his death was still ruled a suicide
Speaker 1: by the Air Force, also by the local police. Yeah,
Speaker 1: also very hanky. But there are people out there, naturally,
Speaker 1: including his widow and his friends, who think that he
Speaker 1: was murdered maybe, And in fact, one judge in Texas
Speaker 1: this is a sort of pursuing it to a lawsuit,
Speaker 1: did declare that Philip Sho's death was a homicide, although
Speaker 1: apparently that had no legal bearing. Apparently the judge still
Speaker 1: it was just that was his opinion. But yeah, but
Speaker 1: as far as the police and the Air Force are concerned,
Speaker 1: it's still suicide. But was it? Who knows? Well, we'll
Speaker 1: find that out. Yeah, Well, we always solve our mysteries.
Speaker 1: First off, let me stop and give a shout out
Speaker 1: to Mr w I know who you are. Mr W.
Speaker 1: It's either George W. Bush or it's Harvey Weinstein. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure which, but that's the first thing who suggested this.
Speaker 1: Mr W as the person who suggested this story. So thanks. Alright,
Speaker 1: start from the beginning. Colonel Philip Shoe was fifty four
Speaker 1: years old. He was a psychiatrist at Lackland as I
Speaker 1: said in Texas. He was married to Tracy Shoe, who
Speaker 1: we had met in the Air Force. She was his
Speaker 1: second wife. She was also in the Air Force. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she had She had just recently retired. She was had
Speaker 1: retired and was then was a slacker. But so Philip
Speaker 1: Shoe divorced his first wife, Nancy Shoe in They had
Speaker 1: one son together, and as part of that divorce agreement,
Speaker 1: Nancy was allowed to keep an insurance policy on Philip
Speaker 1: for a million bucks. Wait, hang on, I think we
Speaker 1: just misspoke. Nancy was not in the service. It's a
Speaker 1: second Tracy. Yeah, that's what I said, his second wife, Tracy. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I suddenly misconstrued what was going
Speaker 1: I was like, what did we just say that? Wrong?
Speaker 1: And so, to be clear, that insurance policy was taken
Speaker 1: out in ninety two when they divorced initially correct or
Speaker 1: thereabouts or to the divorce. I am not entirely shure.
Speaker 1: I thought it was prior to that she was allowed
Speaker 1: to keep it and maintain. Yeah, to be clear, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess the thing that I was trying
Speaker 1: to clarify was this insurance policy was taken out either
Speaker 1: before their divorce or you know, around the time of
Speaker 1: their divorce, not like five years later or nine or
Speaker 1: eleven years later, lawyer during the divorce, So she basically
Speaker 1: got whatever she wanted, and somehow in the proceeding that
Speaker 1: insurance policy was part of it. Yeah, I I and
Speaker 1: I assume it's it's not totally illegitimate. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: probably paying shout out support. They had a son together. Probably, Well,
Speaker 1: if you get killed, we got to even make sure
Speaker 1: that the gets a college education and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, it makes sense to me, especially you know
Speaker 1: in the Air Force. If there's a probability of he
Speaker 1: was an active duty in terms of combat active duty,
Speaker 1: that can change. Yeah, not with his line of his
Speaker 1: life work was a psychiatrist, but you never know. Even
Speaker 1: there gets a psycho guy that's a patient and he
Speaker 1: kills you or you know, I mean there's there's are
Speaker 1: You're just sitting in your office being all psychiatry and stuff,
Speaker 1: and suddenly something in fifty and just overshoots the runway
Speaker 1: and plows right to your office, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's danger anyway, That's all. I was trying to take
Speaker 1: the psychiatrist's office at the end of the runway, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: or really any office. Yeah, anyway, I was just trying
Speaker 1: to be clear that that had happened, like, you know,
Speaker 1: earlier than it wasn't like oh yeah, and then two
Speaker 1: months later he died mster. Yeah no, And I'm not
Speaker 1: sure it could have actually been an ongoing thing. It
Speaker 1: might have been that he'd been insured for like years
Speaker 1: prior to the divorce too. I'm not really totally sure.
Speaker 1: There's no information about that out there, frankly, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of information about this case, so if you
Speaker 1: want to go looking for it, y yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: that particularly, Yeah, there is. But the insurance policy did
Speaker 1: become a little bit a little bit of an issue
Speaker 1: later on, which I see, Yeah, surprised, But anyway, Philip
Speaker 1: should have been in the Air Force for a while
Speaker 1: and as you all know, in the military, at least
Speaker 1: in the US, you get to retire after twenty years
Speaker 1: and you get to have a pension, which is kind
Speaker 1: of sweet. You know, you can retire pretty young and
Speaker 1: have a nice pension. My neighbors are one of them
Speaker 1: is I think thirty seven, it's not true, thirty seven. No,
Speaker 1: she's forty and he's forty seven, and they're both retired
Speaker 1: Navy or something like that, and it's just like that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my dad retired from the military at forty
Speaker 1: five and then went in the private sector and makes
Speaker 1: great money because he's got that pension that's coming in
Speaker 1: on top of his regular income. Yeah, it's a great deal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good deal. Yeah. But anyway, but so he
Speaker 1: was planning on retiring on October two thousand three. Uh,
Speaker 1: and he had been accepted into a program to study
Speaker 1: forensic psychiatry and Alabama, and so his plan was to
Speaker 1: finish out that program, going to private practice, make lots
Speaker 1: of money, uh, the pension, and also have his pension
Speaker 1: and Tracy's pension. She retired of a pretty decent peture herself. Uh.
Speaker 1: So they had just put down an offer on a
Speaker 1: nice house in Birmingham, Alabama, which was accepted. I was
Speaker 1: about a week before his death. And I've seen pictures
Speaker 1: of the house and it's really nice, big, huge, two
Speaker 1: story brick house, nicer than mine, believe it was six
Speaker 1: or seven six they were paying for and I mean
Speaker 1: for two people. Frankly, it was a lot of house.
Speaker 1: It was a huge freaking house. But they were going
Speaker 1: to be making seventy hundred bucks a month and plus
Speaker 1: whatever we're gonna come to two of them from whatever job.
Speaker 1: It wasn't sport. I just didn't be hurting for money.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, definitely not. It just seemed like a
Speaker 1: really big house for two people. People. Yeah. But long
Speaker 1: in the short though, is that, at least according to Tracy,
Speaker 1: everything was going great for her and Phil. He said
Speaker 1: that Phil was happy about life, really looking forward to
Speaker 1: retirement and his new his new psychiatry practice and and
Speaker 1: all that stuff. And uh, and so you know, he
Speaker 1: wasn't depressed or suicidal or anything like that, he gordon
Speaker 1: to her. But then things went south. April sixty, two
Speaker 1: thousand three. Uh, Philip and Tracy were living in the
Speaker 1: town of Bernie, Texas, and that's spelled b O E
Speaker 1: r n E at first I thought it was Born
Speaker 1: like the Born Supremacy thing. Yeah, but it's like it's
Speaker 1: Bernie like the Sanders. Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's Bernie.
Speaker 1: Uh that's of course. Phil worked at Lackland Um. By
Speaker 1: the way, Yeah, by the way, Bernie is about twenty
Speaker 1: five miles northwest of San Antonio, Okay, and it's close
Speaker 1: to the Air Force base. Yeah yeah, kind of clothes
Speaker 1: um to commute. Yeah. So Philip left the house about
Speaker 1: an hour early that day, around five thirty am, because
Speaker 1: he said he wanted to get to the office early
Speaker 1: to get some paperwork done. And that was the last
Speaker 1: time Tracy saw him alive at eight fourteen. Just a
Speaker 1: few hours later that same morning, Phil's carr was seen
Speaker 1: in Highway ten, which is a freeway that runs through Bernie.
Speaker 1: It comes from San Antonio up northwest through Burnie and
Speaker 1: then i'll beyond into the desert and well beyond. And
Speaker 1: so let me describe ten. First, Highway ten when it
Speaker 1: goes through Bernie, is is two lanes in east direction,
Speaker 1: and there's a big huge grass Meradian in between the
Speaker 1: lanes the north and the south. Yeah yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: there's there's at least like a hundred feet wide strip
Speaker 1: of grass feet in between the north and southbound lanes.
Speaker 1: So Phil was seeing going north northbound at mile Market
Speaker 1: five forty three, which would be southeast burning and he
Speaker 1: was headed northwest. And then two guys whose names I've
Speaker 1: never been able to establish. Uh, these guys appeared on
Speaker 1: CBS forty eight hours did a special on this one,
Speaker 1: and these two guys appeared in there or either that
Speaker 1: they were actors impersonating you guys. I'm not sure, whish,
Speaker 1: but they didn't name them they were. They didn't say
Speaker 1: who they were. I mean, I which I thought was
Speaker 1: strange conspiracy. Yeah, well could be, I mean maybe, So
Speaker 1: to clarify, I'm sorry. That would have been the way
Speaker 1: he would have been heading northwest to get to work. No,
Speaker 1: he would have been heading the other way to get southwest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he would have been heading southeast to southeaster or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he would have been heading that direction to to go
Speaker 1: back to his home and Bernie. I'm not not sure
Speaker 1: which which exit. There are three freeway exits to get
Speaker 1: to Bernie, so he would have taken one of those
Speaker 1: to get home, and not sure, but I just wanted
Speaker 1: to be sure to mention he was heading in the
Speaker 1: wrong direction. He was not yet, he was no longer
Speaker 1: heading to work. That is a good point. In fact, well,
Speaker 1: in fact, he never was seen at work that day, right,
Speaker 1: And do they know do we know what time he
Speaker 1: was seen at that mile marker was when it was
Speaker 1: age fourteen? Yeah, okay, so a couple of hours later. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So he's driving north on Highway ten and these two
Speaker 1: guys see him. He's in the right lane, and then
Speaker 1: suddenly he swears from the right lane across left, across
Speaker 1: the freeway to the median into the grass, starts bouncing
Speaker 1: along in there and driving wildly through it. There's light
Speaker 1: poles in there, and so he was like swallowing between
Speaker 1: a few of these light poles and stuff. And then
Speaker 1: eventually it hits uh, some object that's unclear what it was.
Speaker 1: That that actually cost him to get a little bit
Speaker 1: airborne bump or something. Yeah. Yeah, And and so he
Speaker 1: got kind of airborne, came down, um, came back down,
Speaker 1: but kept it under control, got back on the freeway,
Speaker 1: kept driving north on the north on the right side
Speaker 1: of the road. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly. He just
Speaker 1: saw this is very abnormal. It along he looks over
Speaker 1: there says hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well apparently it was
Speaker 1: unusual enough even protextas that it attracted these guys. Notice
Speaker 1: they kept following him. He was going about sixty and
Speaker 1: he went about five four miles north past the John's
Speaker 1: Road exit which you can find on on the aerial
Speaker 1: if you look for it, and that's mile Market five
Speaker 1: thirty nine. But he continued to pass that mile Market
Speaker 1: that was the last exit to Bernie which would take
Speaker 1: him home. Um, and then continue to pass the underpass
Speaker 1: which is St. John's Road, and then there's there's an
Speaker 1: entrance from St. John's Road northbound there. So just at
Speaker 1: the at the end of that, it kind of cross
Speaker 1: that and left the freeway to the right one across
Speaker 1: some grass onto another road. There's a parallel road there
Speaker 1: called frontage Road. They're always called frontage they are, they
Speaker 1: really are. And across that road, headed across a little
Speaker 1: more grass and hit a standard trees. His right front
Speaker 1: bumper of his car clipped a tree, and then his
Speaker 1: car spun clockwise around the passenger side, Yeah, the passenger side,
Speaker 1: So that corner just clips of tree and becomes and
Speaker 1: that and the car just spins quite rapidly around and
Speaker 1: smashed into another tree and the tree at the driver's
Speaker 1: side door and really caved it in good. I mean
Speaker 1: the car is really bent. About the Saudi pictures of it,
Speaker 1: it's bent pretty good. He literally did wrap it around
Speaker 1: a tree. Uh. And he died on the spot from
Speaker 1: massive head injuries. And of course the police showed up, because,
Speaker 1: as we all know, cops are morbidly fascinated by car
Speaker 1: erect right, That's why I'm pretty sure, Hey, freddie correct,
Speaker 1: let's go man. Yeah. So they show up and when
Speaker 1: they're done taking selfie's and posting him on Facebook and stuff,
Speaker 1: they started looking at the wreck, and they looked at
Speaker 1: his body, and obviously they had to see if he
Speaker 1: was alive. He was obviously dead actually, and the two
Speaker 1: anonymous guys that followed had stopped, and that's what one
Speaker 1: of them says. So, yeah, we went up to see
Speaker 1: if he needed any help, and we just looked at
Speaker 1: him and taking, oh, no, he's dead. Yeah, even the
Speaker 1: non experts agreed he's dead. But they started looking at
Speaker 1: him more closely that I was part of his left
Speaker 1: ear had been cut off, not like torn off in
Speaker 1: an accident, but cut off the last joint of his
Speaker 1: left picky finger had also been cut off, and it
Speaker 1: seemed kind of unlikely he've gotten those entries from the wreck.
Speaker 1: And by the way, those pieces of them were not
Speaker 1: found at the crash scene, not found in the car,
Speaker 1: weirdly enough. And then they looked at it, says clothes.
Speaker 1: His shirt was torn, partially unbuttoned. The T shirt underneath,
Speaker 1: you know, this had been slipped, so he had it's
Speaker 1: military uniforms. Who he's got a button up shirt with
Speaker 1: then a always the tan T shirt underneath. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and the T and the tan T shirt had been
Speaker 1: cut basically from the neck almost to the waist. It
Speaker 1: was I'm trying to remember in the pictures, is it
Speaker 1: is it? The collar is still intact, So it's not
Speaker 1: as if the shirt is completely cut from the neck
Speaker 1: to the down to the waistline, right, It's it was
Speaker 1: only a portion of it. Yeah, but it's still still
Speaker 1: enough to allow entrey for Oh yeah, yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: just I'm trying to make sure that we get it across.
Speaker 1: And it's not as if somebody cut it from the
Speaker 1: top all the way down and it was open. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: But but so there's his long, inexplicable cut. The T
Speaker 1: shirt's got some blood. All that's the lower part of it.
Speaker 1: And so his head is bleeding, but it's not really
Speaker 1: blood from his head is blood from other wounds on
Speaker 1: his body, not a result of the car wrec. Well,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I was that six inch long cut? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he had a long cut down the middle of his
Speaker 1: chest that was not from the car wrec. It had
Speaker 1: been made with a knife or a scalpel or something. Uh.
Speaker 1: It was six inches long about an inch wide. And
Speaker 1: when I saw it, I thought, while somebody had made
Speaker 1: the cut and then and then the two sides had
Speaker 1: just separated. But according to the autopsy, and they said,
Speaker 1: now it's the skin had actually been removed. So and
Speaker 1: my wait, I hate to dive into these kind of
Speaker 1: details early on, but I need to understand this because
Speaker 1: it's it's been bothering me this whole time. Am I
Speaker 1: to understand? When I read the autopsy it said that
Speaker 1: I didn't get it and I thought about it later.
Speaker 1: Does that mean somebody actually made two incisions and they
Speaker 1: were at say a forty five degree angle, and where
Speaker 1: they met that come completely freed that strip of skin
Speaker 1: to be an inch wide, it would I see what
Speaker 1: you're saying. Yeah, no, I think that it looks like
Speaker 1: if you look at the end of it's like two
Speaker 1: parallel cuts and then they come together at the ends.
Speaker 1: So yeah, what I think happened is that the cuts
Speaker 1: were made and then it was like the center that
Speaker 1: there was they sort of were tapered together, and then
Speaker 1: that little piece was just peeled down. That's what I think. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I like my answer better. But okay, yeah, well that's
Speaker 1: that's one of the most ancient nasty torture techniques out there.
Speaker 1: Playing somebody alive. You've heard that. There's a reason it's effective.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's nasty. Also like super illegal. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: like any I mean, you know, yeah, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: it doesn't still happen, does but hopefully but less it's
Speaker 1: less common. What's which is progress? Right? Okay until we
Speaker 1: go tour go one to yeah, yeah, and let's see
Speaker 1: what else. Oh yeah, one more more more little detail.
Speaker 1: His nipples have been cut off. That was That was
Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm sorry again, we gotta go a
Speaker 1: little bit into this and you may not know the answer.
Speaker 1: Was it like a scalpel cut around or was it
Speaker 1: like a pension slice. It was more like a scalpel
Speaker 1: cut around and it was super super shallow. They barely
Speaker 1: took the skin underneath the areola down away. It just
Speaker 1: kind of dished out. It wasn't as if they took
Speaker 1: a like a quarter inch or half. Didn't just pulling yeah, no,
Speaker 1: no pulling lopa. I was sure it was still kind
Speaker 1: of good. Oh yeah yeah yeah. And see what else?
Speaker 1: Also and another interesting detail. His wrists and his ankles
Speaker 1: had duct tape on them, like wrapped around them, as
Speaker 1: if he had been maybe a bound hand and foot. Um,
Speaker 1: And there are pieces of the tape hanging off about
Speaker 1: three before inches long, like they like maybe he had
Speaker 1: like broken the tape or like he had been cut
Speaker 1: for a year kind of torn it. I mean, you
Speaker 1: can tear duct tape pretty easily cross ways. I just wondering,
Speaker 1: like if you were bound you know, hand or foot, Yeah,
Speaker 1: if he just like pulled them apart, or no you can't.
Speaker 1: I'm not strong enough. Maybe I'm not. Here's the distinction
Speaker 1: we need to make. I know exactly. Devon just did
Speaker 1: the wrist together motion. His wrists weren't taped together. It
Speaker 1: was one wrist was taped, and then the other wrist
Speaker 1: was taped, and then somehow they appear to have been
Speaker 1: attached to each other with possibly that extra three or
Speaker 1: four inches of taped it or taped to some other objects. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because yeah, I think it looked more to me like
Speaker 1: because the tape in both both rist was wrapped around
Speaker 1: the wrist and there was one end hanging off, So
Speaker 1: it looked more to me like maybe he had been
Speaker 1: tied to a chair. Yeah. And so the same with
Speaker 1: his ankles too, you know. So it's not like they
Speaker 1: put his wrist together and wrapped him his ankles together,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, or his ankles yeah, yeah, the same thing.
Speaker 1: Neither risk no ankles. Yeah, but that was I think
Speaker 1: that's also an important distinction. Yeah. And so, um, but
Speaker 1: he did have this duct tape on him, so that's interesting.
Speaker 1: It looked like somebody had tied him up and tortured him. Okay,
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, there was an autopsy Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe it or not that revealed that Philip Shoe
Speaker 1: had latto cane in his system. Latto cane is isn't
Speaker 1: It's an anesthetic. Um. Usually it's like if you have
Speaker 1: to get stitches or something like that. They'll inject a
Speaker 1: little into the skin around the wound, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: and nom it that kind of thing. I don't know
Speaker 1: if they use latto cane for dental work or not. No,
Speaker 1: but if you've ever had um like a yes, that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, that's exactly what they use it for.
Speaker 1: Or they just don't. Well they do. But I think
Speaker 1: unless you've got you know, igor the torture for a doctor,
Speaker 1: and that's your own fault for choosing that provider. I
Speaker 1: should have been tipped off when his name was It's true, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like these. Okay, sorry, So he had light cane
Speaker 1: in his system. Oh yeah, no drugs or alcohol and
Speaker 1: no no illicit drugs there. There was some better drill.
Speaker 1: But you know, he probably had allergies, nothing to suspicious
Speaker 1: in April, particularly in April. Yeah, yeah, that's the light
Speaker 1: of cane. The corner concluded in his report that it
Speaker 1: came from a topical Lydakan cream that she had prescribed
Speaker 1: for himself a week or two before the accident. Being
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, he had access to write prescriptions. Psychiatrists, I
Speaker 1: mean they're essentially as you know, as good as medical doctors,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah. In fact, you've got to go to
Speaker 1: medical school to because our psychiatrists, you know. So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: did anyone know why he prescribed the let of cane
Speaker 1: cream to himself? No, that's a good question, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe it just to get high. Probably, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's how that works. But okay, it's my
Speaker 1: favorite line in the show. That's not how it works,
Speaker 1: how any of this works. Yeah, some other miscellaneous items. Shoes,
Speaker 1: wallet was missing, I want to say shoes. Shoes were missing,
Speaker 1: but these shoes were on him, damn it. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: he did have forty seven bucks in cash in one pocket, uh,
Speaker 1: and half in change and a bucket half in change
Speaker 1: also in the other pocket, and one of them and
Speaker 1: he was wearing his fatigue pants, so they had cargo pockets.
Speaker 1: There was a small flashlight probably like a little led light,
Speaker 1: and his b d us. Yeah. Uh. In the car
Speaker 1: there there there was found one straight razor, two pocket knives,
Speaker 1: one late text disposable glove unused, and an open package
Speaker 1: of small gauge needles in the glove box. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: just I just thought it throw that. So it's a
Speaker 1: random assortment of things. I mean, you would do you've
Speaker 1: you went into my car, there would be a hodgepodge
Speaker 1: of stuff. It's probably a couple of pocket knives in
Speaker 1: my car. At least, there's no straight razors that I
Speaker 1: didn't remember. Yeah, it's the straight razor in the late
Speaker 1: text clove. Though. I understand he worked with medical equipment,
Speaker 1: so I get why he could have had three pairs
Speaker 1: of late tex gloves in my that's because you abduct people, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's not. But it's actually not that unusual. I know,
Speaker 1: I know Pete people who carry a pair of LATEX
Speaker 1: gloves in their car just in case there's a wreck
Speaker 1: and they need to do this your first aid, you know,
Speaker 1: post HIV and hepatitis C and everything like that. A
Speaker 1: lot more people are a little squeamish about coming into
Speaker 1: contact with blood. That weird to have a set of
Speaker 1: gloves in your car that, yeah, No, seriously, have three
Speaker 1: pairs in my clutch purse that you've seen me carrying around.
Speaker 1: I have three pairs of I have a full first
Speaker 1: aid kid in there. I also have a bunch of
Speaker 1: gloves in my car, but I don't have any straight
Speaker 1: razors or unopened hypodermic needles. Bring that purse with you
Speaker 1: to the next dress event that we have to go to,
Speaker 1: and then will be at the table with people. How
Speaker 1: are you doing? Oh great? And then you just open
Speaker 1: up your purse to start pulling out I brought him
Speaker 1: to the meet up. Well, I'm like, you should have
Speaker 1: done that. A crime card been perfect. I can next time. Yea.
Speaker 1: Some of you may have noticed the doors are locked
Speaker 1: because you put the gloves on, but no, I mean
Speaker 1: I do it because first aid. I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: you guys know I'm certified, So I feel like I
Speaker 1: would like to protect myself if I were to, you know,
Speaker 1: have to save a life. Absolutely's not a bad idea.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, you know, there's yeah, there's like
Speaker 1: random stuff rattling around people's cars, but the straight razor
Speaker 1: and the needles are a little weird. Well even the needles. Again,
Speaker 1: he had he was you know, he was a doctor presumably,
Speaker 1: but so and yeah, what happened, that's a good question.
Speaker 1: The local corner looked at the autopsy reports and looked
Speaker 1: at the other evidence, and it concluded that she was
Speaker 1: death was a suicide, even though it looked from all
Speaker 1: appearances like she would been abducted and tortured. Uh, that
Speaker 1: you've been tied up in tortured. It looked like he
Speaker 1: had somehow escaped, driven north trying to get away from
Speaker 1: his tortures. That's the way a lot of people see
Speaker 1: this particular story. Yeah, frankly, that's kind of what it
Speaker 1: looks like. Yeah, you think, but notetheless, he declared it
Speaker 1: a suicide, and he based this on a few some evidence. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, the the six inch long cut in
Speaker 1: his chest. Uh, there were about a half a dozen
Speaker 1: I think five shallow scratch marks next to that cut.
Speaker 1: Were those at the top of the bottom? Do you remember?
Speaker 1: I think they were on the side of it? Well, no,
Speaker 1: I mean like, were they near the top of the
Speaker 1: incision or near the bottom? I think I think they're
Speaker 1: the topent sure on that, And so in his mind,
Speaker 1: those appear to be hesitation marks what you're found on
Speaker 1: typically found on people who say cut their risks committing suicide.
Speaker 1: And that's you know, people sometimes you know, can't write
Speaker 1: commit at first, and eventually they make up their minds
Speaker 1: to do it. And yeah, yeah, I mean hurting yourself,
Speaker 1: there's you're going to have some hesitation no matter what
Speaker 1: I would think. So yeah. The corner also noted that
Speaker 1: she would be getting psychiatric treatment for depression and anxiety,
Speaker 1: which of course increased the risk for suicide. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the word. Would I say that? But yeah, it kind
Speaker 1: of does. Yeah, well, I mean suffering from depression anxiety
Speaker 1: increases your risk of suicide. Not the seeking of treatment
Speaker 1: for those things. Oh well, yeah, that's what I sorry,
Speaker 1: that's what I mean. It's like seeking treatment is probably
Speaker 1: a good idea, probably. Yeah, well, what else he knows
Speaker 1: he noticed that shoe when he was driving north on
Speaker 1: the freeway, drove past three Access to Bernie, which is, uh,
Speaker 1: if he was actually fleeing from from his tortures, that's
Speaker 1: what you would kind of expect him to do to home,
Speaker 1: head home, or head to the police station something. I
Speaker 1: would say, police station maybe, but home, not necessarily home.
Speaker 1: You don't want to lead well somebody home. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: probably know where you live already, and yeah, but they don't.
Speaker 1: You want to just get off and scream around the
Speaker 1: city until you drive past a cop, you know? And yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well yeah he kind of was asked him to be
Speaker 1: pulled over cop. Yeah, I know he did on the
Speaker 1: on the freeway. Uh, what else uh. And and then
Speaker 1: he wove through the light poles as I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: and that was interpreted by the authorities as suicidal hesitation.
Speaker 1: So he's thinking, yeah, I'm gonna ply to that plot
Speaker 1: one of that big light post right there, and then
Speaker 1: it all but then it loses his nerve swerves, you know,
Speaker 1: and so after a few tries, he says, screw it,
Speaker 1: let's go back on the freeway, look for look for
Speaker 1: something better. We'll talk about and and so yeah, that
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure, but that's that's how that was
Speaker 1: interpreted his hesitation. He also noted Shoe had a working
Speaker 1: cell phone in his car, and then he could have
Speaker 1: called if he'd been tortured and if he was being chased.
Speaker 1: And then lastly he noted that there was light, a
Speaker 1: cane and shoes bloodstream, which, as we said, it's an anesthetic.
Speaker 1: And why would somebody was torturing him, Why would they
Speaker 1: give him light a cane to lesson? Why would they
Speaker 1: give somebody a painkiller if they want to torture him.
Speaker 1: So they concluded that his injuries had been self inflicted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so why would somebody do this? I mean, it's kind
Speaker 1: of in the same way to kill yourself. Why would
Speaker 1: you cut up here? It's extreme, there's there's a lot
Speaker 1: involved in all this self mutilation, and then you hut yourself.
Speaker 1: Why And well, the thinking was that maybe she wanted
Speaker 1: to make his suicide look like a murder and like
Speaker 1: he was abducted and tortured, managed to escape and then
Speaker 1: died fleeing in his car. And then well, why would
Speaker 1: he want to do that? Well, because his ex wife,
Speaker 1: Nancy had a life insurance Paul to see on him
Speaker 1: for a million bucks. So maybe staging a suicide to
Speaker 1: look like a homicide would keep her from collecting on
Speaker 1: the policy. And it did cause Nancy a few headaches,
Speaker 1: by the way, although in the end she did collect
Speaker 1: on the policy. The policy didn't have that suicide writer
Speaker 1: that we talked about all the time. No, actually, apparently
Speaker 1: a lot of them don't. It's just I think they're
Speaker 1: there's some sort of adelia where there's a waiting period,
Speaker 1: like like you can't buy an insurance policy and kill
Speaker 1: yourself a month later. Yeah, yeah, so it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, six months or a year waiting period. Okay.
Speaker 1: The silly thing about this is of course that Nancy's
Speaker 1: not the only one that has an insurance policy on him.
Speaker 1: That's true. So yeah, I mean this this is a
Speaker 1: little wonky, but let's keep going. You know, we got
Speaker 1: we got more ground to cover with a little bit.
Speaker 1: Uh So that was the coroner's reasoning, and the and
Speaker 1: the ruling was officially suicide. Obviously, the suicide ruling didn't
Speaker 1: set to out of Phil's widow, Tracy and and all
Speaker 1: their friends. For one thing, they didn't think he was suicidal. Also,
Speaker 1: Tracy pointed out that he would receive several threatening letters
Speaker 1: since the late nineteen nineties, and and letters that basically
Speaker 1: said your access plotting to kill you for the life insurance.
Speaker 1: And so you know, obviously that looked to her like
Speaker 1: evidence that at least that somebody was looking to kill him.
Speaker 1: I mean, a million dollars is a lot of money,
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm planning
Speaker 1: to kill you guys for your million dollar policies, but
Speaker 1: I'm just very good at forging. Yeah. Well, I'm glad
Speaker 1: we've got that recorded on the records. Oh you know what,
Speaker 1: it's not turned on nah. Oh see. There was another
Speaker 1: another weird incident that happened in June, somebody stole Philip
Speaker 1: shoes laptop. He was actually working at his master's thesis
Speaker 1: and at the university library. I want to I want
Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. When it came back, his
Speaker 1: laptop had been stolen, but the thief gave it back
Speaker 1: to him. Several weeks later. He left it sitting on
Speaker 1: the hood of his car in burning It was parked
Speaker 1: in Burnie and they came back and there's this there's
Speaker 1: this laptop and had a threatening note on that said
Speaker 1: not to report it to the police because if he
Speaker 1: did that quote others will die unquote. So he didn't
Speaker 1: report to the police. Oh yeah, and by the way,
Speaker 1: the hard drive on the computer had been wiped. Was
Speaker 1: it his personal Yeah, laptop, not one that he might
Speaker 1: have used for work that would have had files on personally.
Speaker 1: He didn't have to report it to the Air Force.
Speaker 1: I have a question about this note. Yeah. Was it
Speaker 1: a physical note or was it a note on the computer?
Speaker 1: I do not know that because if it's a note
Speaker 1: on the computer, that makes no sense. A lot some
Speaker 1: places have made it out as if it was a
Speaker 1: note left written in a file in the computer. But
Speaker 1: it's hardened, you know, what I'm saying, like, my understanding
Speaker 1: is that it was a physical note. And and but
Speaker 1: the reason you're probably thinking that is because they only
Speaker 1: found out about this after he died, because he had
Speaker 1: written some sort of an entry on it in his
Speaker 1: journal or whatever on his computer diary exactly. So he
Speaker 1: he actually he actually wrote something on and there was
Speaker 1: in some sort of file and his computer he wrote
Speaker 1: about this. It was stolen the important he reported it
Speaker 1: to the university police. It came back with this note.
Speaker 1: He didn't report it to the police, which is strange
Speaker 1: when you think about it, because, I mean, this is
Speaker 1: evidence that somebody has kind of stocking him, don't you think.
Speaker 1: I mean, if the guy stole his computer, wiped the
Speaker 1: hard drive, why would somebody do that? And somebody knew
Speaker 1: where he was, where his car was parked, and left
Speaker 1: us sitting on his on his hood. So that's evidence
Speaker 1: to me that's some some creeper is following me and
Speaker 1: knows more about me than he probably should. But also, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, but also it means that that
Speaker 1: creeper probably is following you. And if you believe it's
Speaker 1: a credible threat, that they are willing to hurt people
Speaker 1: that are important to you, don't They will literally know
Speaker 1: if you go to the police. Maybe I would probably
Speaker 1: find some sneaky way to get to to find to
Speaker 1: get into contact with the police. And I think it
Speaker 1: can be done if you created SMS text message yeah probably. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You can't text the police now, yeah, most not all.
Speaker 1: Lots of police stations. Yeah, we just talked about municipalities
Speaker 1: and their different levels of technological contradict I know the
Speaker 1: Portlands Police you can actually text and if you're a criminal,
Speaker 1: by the way, you can also text sel piece of
Speaker 1: yourself committing crimes police, so feel free to do that.
Speaker 1: It's perfect. That never happened. I mean, I love it
Speaker 1: when there's some story about some guy like takes a
Speaker 1: picture of himself and his homely stealing something and post
Speaker 1: on Facebook. Yeah look at me, dog. Did you see
Speaker 1: the one recently where a guy a kid was like, um,
Speaker 1: they issued a warrant for his arrest or something, and
Speaker 1: he said, oh, if this post gets a thousand likes,
Speaker 1: I'll turn myself in And it got like a way
Speaker 1: more than that, so many so we showed up at
Speaker 1: the police station with donuts and was like, all right,
Speaker 1: here I am. Then I turned myself in here. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: you gotta get the guy credit. He was a man
Speaker 1: of his word and donuts yeah and dout. Yeah. That's
Speaker 1: that's yeah. Well back to our story though, Tracy Shoe
Speaker 1: after this verdict wanted she wanted a big crusade, and
Speaker 1: there was that forty eight hours episode that I talked
Speaker 1: about was a big part of it was about her
Speaker 1: big crusade to vindicate her husband. Clear his name. And
Speaker 1: Tracy is the widow, Nancy is the X y X.
Speaker 1: You know, they're all like super like whitebread names. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah. Anyway, she goes on a crusade.
Speaker 1: As I said, she sued Nancy the ex also sued
Speaker 1: the usa A, the insurance company, the life insurance company.
Speaker 1: She lost the lawsuit, but the presiding judge, as I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, did officially offer his opinion that Phil's death
Speaker 1: was a homicide and not a suicide. But she still
Speaker 1: got paid out the bush. Nancy got the box and
Speaker 1: also Tracy, yes, she actually she got She got more
Speaker 1: money than any but she had a much bigger life
Speaker 1: insurance policy. I think hers was like one eight million.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, pretty pretty decentle to pay. I would
Speaker 1: hate to think of what the premiums would be for that.
Speaker 1: I do not know. Of course it was. It was
Speaker 1: to USA. They were in the military, so USA does
Speaker 1: it all of it for the military. Yeah, that's probably
Speaker 1: was much more affordable, which is why it was so inflated.
Speaker 1: Probably so cheap that they just thought, why not bump
Speaker 1: it up to one point eight million? I mean that's
Speaker 1: another two bucks a month? Yeah, I mean really, why not?
Speaker 1: What else? Tracy hired a third party for another autopsy.
Speaker 1: Who was It was a consultant named Cyril Wecht, Cyril
Speaker 1: and maybe Cyril, I don't know. I think it's Cyril.
Speaker 1: Now he's a he's a forensic pathologist. He's kind of
Speaker 1: one of these well known celebrity pathologist types. He's written
Speaker 1: some books, done other high high profile cases including, uh,
Speaker 1: the GfK assassination, Elvis Presley, John By Ramsey and the
Speaker 1: list that it was on and on. Probably seen him
Speaker 1: on TV at some point, And here's a fun little factor.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe don't know. He's the guy who discovered that
Speaker 1: GfK's brain had gone missing. He's also got a blistering
Speaker 1: tongue and he really suffers no fool. Some of the
Speaker 1: things that I've I've read that he's written. She's like,
Speaker 1: that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He's the
Speaker 1: He's a version of all of the things that he
Speaker 1: says about the person. I want you to know, that's
Speaker 1: the nice version of me saying things like that too.
Speaker 1: I know you do, yeah, listeners, you know, yeah, you know. Well,
Speaker 1: anyway back to back to syr or Cyril. So he's in.
Speaker 1: He appears in that forty eight hours episode, and he
Speaker 1: noticed if you odd things about the death the number
Speaker 1: one the latter can and shoes system, he said, was
Speaker 1: not at a level that would make it an effective
Speaker 1: pain killer, which he felt kind of undercut the corners,
Speaker 1: reasoning on that point that you know, it would have
Speaker 1: lessened the pain enough to make the torture ineffective. Also,
Speaker 1: the LT of cane could not have come from that
Speaker 1: topical treatment that the corner assumed it came from, because
Speaker 1: that treatment also contains prilocane, which was not found in
Speaker 1: shoes blood. Therefore, the light of cane had to have
Speaker 1: come from somewhere else. Interesting, But what I found no
Speaker 1: injection point for the drug. He noted also that no
Speaker 1: needle or hypodermic was found an on shoe or in
Speaker 1: the car. No bottle of Lyda cane was found there,
Speaker 1: No cutting instrument capable of excizing those nipples was found
Speaker 1: or making that cut in his chest, because there were
Speaker 1: there were. I mean, maybe the straight razor could have
Speaker 1: done it, but no blood was found on the straight razors.
Speaker 1: I was going to actually say, is that he did
Speaker 1: admit when we're talking about there's no injection points, he
Speaker 1: did admit that there was actually three prime locations that
Speaker 1: could have been ejected and then masked by the later mutilation,
Speaker 1: which is the left nipple, the right nipple, and the
Speaker 1: strip of skin down his his chest. Absolutely, so it
Speaker 1: could have been injected there and then you know the
Speaker 1: actual excision. And absolutely absolutely, And since that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of where the cutting happened, it wouldn't be surprising at
Speaker 1: all if that's where the injections took place. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: go to the dentists and they inject the side of
Speaker 1: your mouth that they're working on, not the other side.
Speaker 1: For a reason, it's exactly local. Okay, I just know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And so I don't know what happens if you injected
Speaker 1: in your blood stream. If you go numb all over,
Speaker 1: what the hell happens. I've never seen just your blood
Speaker 1: stream goes numb. That would be funny. Yeah, yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1: Your little red blood cells don't know what to do. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: But so they didn't find anything that could have caused
Speaker 1: the injuries. They did not find Yeah, they found it.
Speaker 1: At least one of the knives was like a Swiss
Speaker 1: army knife, which they determined was not remotely sharp enough
Speaker 1: to have done even brand new from the factory. Swiss
Speaker 1: Army knives aren't sharp enough to cut anything. I've got
Speaker 1: a couple of those things. I like them just fine,
Speaker 1: but they've they've always been kind of dull. I've never
Speaker 1: been able to get a good edge on one of those.
Speaker 1: They tell the worst stories. That's why they're so dull. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not boring, but they're so reliable and they make
Speaker 1: good watches. But here's a really key point also that
Speaker 1: Wexed made, which is at the duct tape that was
Speaker 1: on shoes, wrists, and ankles did not have his fingerprints
Speaker 1: on him, which he said you would expect if he
Speaker 1: had taped himself up, if he was faking his abduction, right,
Speaker 1: and no gloves were found in the car except for
Speaker 1: that one that was unused, But no gloves were found
Speaker 1: and uh, and so that lack of fingerprints is an
Speaker 1: important point for a lot of people who do think
Speaker 1: that Shoe died as a result of foul play. It was,
Speaker 1: it was. It was very suspicious enough to the Dr
Speaker 1: Wecht that he thought he'd mentioned it, you know, of course,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, one glove was found, right, Okay. Also
Speaker 1: the local sheriff, he was interviewed on forty eight hours
Speaker 1: he was also he had some misgivings about the whole thing. Um.
Speaker 1: He said, it was not not investigated the way it
Speaker 1: should have been. He said. The state police just came in,
Speaker 1: took over the accident scene and refused to treat it
Speaker 1: as a crime scene. They they really never even considered
Speaker 1: the possibility of foul play, he said, And so some
Speaker 1: key evidence might have been lost they just according to him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then the Air Force started an investigation which produced
Speaker 1: what it was what was called a psychological autopsy of
Speaker 1: Philip Shoe. These are always weirdly interesting, Yeah, yeah, they are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're kind of like the Myers Briggs tests. But like
Speaker 1: even more like level. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's
Speaker 1: that sort of thing where you're like, I don't need
Speaker 1: to know about myself, and then you start reading and
Speaker 1: you're like five pages and all of a sudden you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is so true. How is this
Speaker 1: so true? So true? It's so scary. I'm a serial killer.
Speaker 1: But this this report was actually pretty comprehensive. It's long.
Speaker 1: I've read it and Steve, you read it, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Did you read it? Devon? Some of it? Okay, it
Speaker 1: was easy to skim through. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. The
Speaker 1: chalk full of good facts. If you're researching this case. Wow,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of a lot of good stuff in there.
Speaker 1: It was released in May two thousand five, two years
Speaker 1: after he died, and it drew by the testimony of
Speaker 1: a lot of people, including his doctor, a psychiatrists, family
Speaker 1: and friends, the autopsy reports, etcetera. And the conclusion of
Speaker 1: that psychological autopsy was suicide. Surprised their investigation would come
Speaker 1: up with the same thing that they said it was.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but there's still but still, the
Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding his death work on a sketchy There is
Speaker 1: at least one person who had a really good motive
Speaker 1: to murder him, and who, by the way, he took
Speaker 1: the fifth when she was interrogated about his death. And
Speaker 1: of course there were the threatening notes, the weird incident
Speaker 1: with the laptop um and he himself had expressed some
Speaker 1: some really big fears about his life, like, for example,
Speaker 1: he told the psychiatrist that he had started taking all
Speaker 1: he had started altering his route that he was taken
Speaker 1: to and from work daily exactly as you will. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll take that as you will. Yeah. He also said
Speaker 1: he'd gotten a PO box because excuse me, a post
Speaker 1: office box because he didn't want to use his mailbox
Speaker 1: at home because he was afraid somebody might booby trap it.
Speaker 1: And so he started to use a little paranoid maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit, or maybe he really has something to
Speaker 1: be worried about, yea. So maybe it wasn't murdered paranoia.
Speaker 1: Whether it's correct or not, it's still paranoia. Actually, there's
Speaker 1: nothing negative about being paranoid, if you're right. I think
Speaker 1: just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and so maybe somebody was anyway, but suspicions about it,
Speaker 1: it's continues to be talked about to this day and
Speaker 1: people and it's not just on Reddit. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: see some articles in some major media outlets besides forty
Speaker 1: eight hours talking about this very one and a lot
Speaker 1: of people are still convinced that he was murdered. That's
Speaker 1: our question for today. It's an interesting question. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: before we answer that question, let's take a break. The
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Speaker 1: back Murder Aside. You'll be the judge Murder, Murder, murder,
Speaker 1: all right? So what are the theories that are out there?
Speaker 1: There are several first and everybody's favorite, it seems like
Speaker 1: for this one is murderer. Well it's I mean those
Speaker 1: are kind of like kind of kind of suspicious. Agree,
Speaker 1: yeah a little bit. I want you guys to know
Speaker 1: that if I show up like this, please treat it
Speaker 1: like a murderer. Okay, okay, now we planned to. We're
Speaker 1: going to investigate anything that happens to we promise, great,
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, she's been planting clues like this for weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really want to know what the hell she's got up. Well,
Speaker 1: I decided that's what. That's why every day I go
Speaker 1: to my A t M and take out like twenty bucks,
Speaker 1: but do it like twenty times because I think it's well,
Speaker 1: this is the day that I disappear. You know, you
Speaker 1: want to you want to those a TM It took
Speaker 1: out like you know, yeah, four dollars, but it didn't
Speaker 1: twenty buck intments and nobody knows why. Yeah we know why. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now crazy damn. Okay, so murder So somebody the series
Speaker 1: goes somebody abducted Colonel Shoe, tortured him and probably intended
Speaker 1: to murder him, but he managed to free himself somehow
Speaker 1: and get away, jumped his car, sped north on Highway ten,
Speaker 1: maybe thinking that he was being followed, which is not
Speaker 1: an outrageous thing to think. Yeah, hard to say what
Speaker 1: his intentions were other than to get away as fast
Speaker 1: as possible. Of his mind was perhaps a bit clatter
Speaker 1: from pain, maybe blood loss, maybe the ladder cane, that's
Speaker 1: hard to say. Maybe the benadrul apparently he had a
Speaker 1: lot in his system. Yeah, I mean that would also
Speaker 1: kind of support this whole murder theory, if like he'd
Speaker 1: gotten dosed with a bunch of benadryl to to make
Speaker 1: him more pliable, or maybe just O d M and
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know take Yeah, well, apparently he'd
Speaker 1: taken a bunch, but but you know, so he might
Speaker 1: have been a little bit out of it, but he
Speaker 1: did manage to keep the car in a control. Uh tell,
Speaker 1: he actually the freeway and hit those trees at least.
Speaker 1: And so this would make it homicide in the sense
Speaker 1: that he would not have been in that situation if
Speaker 1: not for the actions of these other people who obviously
Speaker 1: did not intend him. You know. Well, but the question
Speaker 1: is is who were those other people? Well, there are
Speaker 1: two main suspects out there. The butler, yeah, Mrs White.
Speaker 1: The colonel. Wait wait, he's the colonel now the lead
Speaker 1: pipe with the colonel. Okay, Um, so our first suspect
Speaker 1: would be Philip Shoe's ex wife, Nancy Shoe a k a.
Speaker 1: Nancy Timpson because she remarried to a guy named Don Timpson,
Speaker 1: and she did have a good motive to kill him,
Speaker 1: which is why so many people thought that Nancy had
Speaker 1: done it, or maybe and still think that she did it. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, there was that life insurance policy, and I
Speaker 1: don't know how she felt about him, and there was
Speaker 1: a divorce, of course, I don't think it was a
Speaker 1: totally amicable one, so maybe there was, maybe there was
Speaker 1: another motive there. Just bit I really got the feeling
Speaker 1: that they were your typical divorces with a kid stuck
Speaker 1: in the middle. You know, they did not seem to
Speaker 1: get along. Yeah, but it's you know, it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean that she wanted to kill him. I know lots
Speaker 1: of people who were divorced and don't want to murder anybody.
Speaker 1: But and of course, the the insurance policy, of course,
Speaker 1: does not prove that she killed him or hired somebody
Speaker 1: to kill him. You know, lots of us have motives
Speaker 1: to kill people. Doesn't mean we actually do it or
Speaker 1: make us guilty of that yet, Yeah, not so far. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there're although there are those letters, and the only
Speaker 1: one I've actually seen is a is a typewritten one
Speaker 1: which says, and here I'm paraphrasing, I overheard your ex
Speaker 1: wife Nancy and her husband Don talking and they were
Speaker 1: saying that they wanted you dead for your insurance money.
Speaker 1: F Y, I be careful, signed upper end that that
Speaker 1: letter is really poorly written. Yeah. It was obviously either
Speaker 1: written on a true typewriter or some kind of word
Speaker 1: processor that did not have spell check, because there was
Speaker 1: some pretty egregious errors in there. Yeah, it was probably typewritten,
Speaker 1: because let's let's not forget he worked for the military.
Speaker 1: You know, you probably in two thousands, so you probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have found too many typewriters in civilian life. But
Speaker 1: I bet the military still had him. I was going
Speaker 1: to say, like a library, yeah, you know, because like
Speaker 1: you know, he was at a library when the computer
Speaker 1: was turned to him, right, a campus library. Uh, well,
Speaker 1: that when it was taken from him. Yeah. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that he that he typed that either. I mean
Speaker 1: it said somebody sent him this letter that was typewritten.
Speaker 1: I just would think. And by the way, and by
Speaker 1: the way, his I think his x or her husband
Speaker 1: were actually in the military, but station in Florida because
Speaker 1: the Florida Yeah, and so right about the time that
Speaker 1: he received this letter, I think that made him think
Speaker 1: about this whole insurance things. So he asked Nancy to
Speaker 1: cancel the insurance policy. She wouldn't. Uh. He wanted the
Speaker 1: insurance company USA and asked them to cancel it, and
Speaker 1: they refused. He even presented the notes and everything, said, Hey,
Speaker 1: I've been getting these these these nasty letters and stuff
Speaker 1: that are kind of scaring me and I don't want
Speaker 1: to have I don't want her having a motive to
Speaker 1: kill me. And they just said, dude, there's nothing we
Speaker 1: can said. You got these notes, but so what they
Speaker 1: don't prove a thing. She owns the policies, you know,
Speaker 1: it's up to her to keep him or get rid
Speaker 1: of them and not. And so that was that. As
Speaker 1: far as the letters, I don't know if any of
Speaker 1: the envelopes they came in were kept or tossed out.
Speaker 1: I'd never seen the evidence that they were kept. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and pretty much all when we were a similar nature.
Speaker 1: I think there were four of them at all, but
Speaker 1: he kept the letters. But he kept the letters, and
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe you kept at least four of the letters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's gotten more that we don't know, I asked, true,
Speaker 1: I only know about the four. Yeah, I would maybe
Speaker 1: toss the first one. That's entirely possible. You would yeah, okay, sure,
Speaker 1: and then you get another one you're like oh, and
Speaker 1: you get like four more and you're like oh, except
Speaker 1: it was over the course of years that they arrived. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I would still I mean, you know, the second one,
Speaker 1: would maybe think okay more Yeah, yeah, I would probably
Speaker 1: start a file. I'll keep him there. Yeah. But so
Speaker 1: she continued to try to get the policy canceled, but
Speaker 1: he was never successful in that. But it was kind
Speaker 1: of not it was a micro crusade or something. I mean,
Speaker 1: there wasn't like it was an obsession exactly, but he
Speaker 1: was sort of working on it. Uh. And then when
Speaker 1: Nancy was interrogated about about Philip's death, she pleaded the fifth.
Speaker 1: If you watch that forty eight Hours episode, you'll see
Speaker 1: her on video doing it. Two of the questions were, quote,
Speaker 1: were you responsible for Philip shoes death? Unquote? She took
Speaker 1: the fifth. Next question, quote did you discuss with your
Speaker 1: husband Don Timpson murdering Philip Shoe for insurance money? Unquote?
Speaker 1: She took the fifth. Forty eight Hours she took the
Speaker 1: fifth twenty times. We have seen more than one occasion
Speaker 1: where somebody has done that because their lawyers said, you
Speaker 1: say anything, they're gonna have a field day and they're
Speaker 1: gonna try and incriminate you. So don't give them a
Speaker 1: single thing. One of our one of our mods talks
Speaker 1: about this and something related where, um, we talk a
Speaker 1: lot about how suspicious it is, that's so and so
Speaker 1: got a lawyer right in a case if you were,
Speaker 1: if you weren't guilty, you wouldn't get a lawyer. But
Speaker 1: one of the Facebook moths talks about this a lot
Speaker 1: where they're like, if anybody within like a twenty mile
Speaker 1: radius of me gets murdered, and I, like even have
Speaker 1: a passing knowledge of this human, like I'm probably going
Speaker 1: to just contact my lawyer and be like, hey, heads up,
Speaker 1: this is how I knew this human just in case,
Speaker 1: you know, like you technically like lawyering up. You're yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, but also I do think it's suspicious. Oh
Speaker 1: yeah it is, it doesn't fifth, instead of saying no,
Speaker 1: well yeah, that's the thing is that if she wasn't involved,
Speaker 1: why not just answer honestly saying I don't know anything
Speaker 1: about this, but I also don't know what her lawyer
Speaker 1: was thinking. And of course, truthfully, I mean some of
Speaker 1: those ques like like did you discuss with your husband
Speaker 1: murdering him for insurance money? I mean they might discuss that,
Speaker 1: probably not seriously. At some point you get drunk one
Speaker 1: night and you're sitting and you're saying, God, you know,
Speaker 1: short on money, and and Phil has got this million
Speaker 1: dollar insurance We should kill him, you know, honest? Right,
Speaker 1: even we we have on recording me saying ha ha,
Speaker 1: I'm going to murder you guys for hear insurance money.
Speaker 1: You don't. I don't even have insurance policies on you.
Speaker 1: And yet if someone were like, uh, you know, twenty
Speaker 1: years down the road, if I did have insurance policies
Speaker 1: on you, and someone were like, have you ever done that?
Speaker 1: I would have to say, uh, probably I would have
Speaker 1: to say the fifth, right, because you don't want to say, like, yes,
Speaker 1: twenty years before I ever had an insurance policy on them.
Speaker 1: I joked on a podcast once, right, I mean what
Speaker 1: happens on the podcast is real, it's recorded history. I
Speaker 1: don't know what you mean this is. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is what we're doing. We're recording our history until the
Speaker 1: Internet goes away. This is not going to be too
Speaker 1: long from now. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I understand
Speaker 1: pleading the fifth to that, but I don't totally understand
Speaker 1: pleading the fifth. Two were you responsible for his death? Well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I mean, so it doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense to me. It's not so much that saying, wow,
Speaker 1: I think she's guilty that I'm just saying it doesn't
Speaker 1: quite make sense. But again, if her lawyer just told her, hey,
Speaker 1: here's what you say. Nothing, just say the fifth and
Speaker 1: so okay and all. And also Nancy I was asked
Speaker 1: if she would take a polygraph test and she wouldn't
Speaker 1: do that. Either, She's guilty, are useless? Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: but still you know it. But you can see why
Speaker 1: Nancy is is a lot of people's favorite suspect. You
Speaker 1: can see that. Um. But as far as I know,
Speaker 1: as I said, I think, as far as I know,
Speaker 1: Nancy and her husband Don were in Florida when Philip
Speaker 1: Shoe died. Of course, that doesn't mean they didn't hire
Speaker 1: somebody to bump him off. But as far as I know,
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that she actually had anything to do
Speaker 1: with Colonel shoes death doesn't mean she didn't do it,
Speaker 1: and like I said, a lot of people think she did.
Speaker 1: But let's put her on hold for a minute when
Speaker 1: we talk about another suspect. Please, okay, click do do
Speaker 1: do do. I'll back to your regular scheduled program. All right,
Speaker 1: here we are. So our next suspect is Tracy Shoe, Yes,
Speaker 1: the the breaved widow. Uh. As one commenter noted, if
Speaker 1: Nancy had a million reasons to murder Philip Shoe, Tracy
Speaker 1: actually had twice as many and one point eight ties
Speaker 1: as many. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, And actually, well,
Speaker 1: in some ways Tracy would be a better candidate. Never
Speaker 1: once she wasn't in Florida. She was, she wasn't burning. Uh.
Speaker 1: The timeline for She's death, when you think about it,
Speaker 1: doesn't quite add up. I mean, so it leaves the
Speaker 1: house about five thirty, next spot at eight fourteen, So
Speaker 1: it's two hours and forty four minutes in which to
Speaker 1: do the following things. You've got to intercept Philip Shoe
Speaker 1: in his car, get him out of it, taken to
Speaker 1: a nice private place where he could be taped to
Speaker 1: a chair, tortured for a while. And I've seen all
Speaker 1: those things, cutting off his finger, his ear, the slit
Speaker 1: in the chest, the nipples, all of a sudden. It
Speaker 1: probably took a little while because when you torture people,
Speaker 1: you don't just like bing bing bing bing bang. You
Speaker 1: want to stop and talk like in the movies and
Speaker 1: drag it out, and they experience if you do it fast,
Speaker 1: then it's all the pain at once, which is not
Speaker 1: the point. Yeah, it's little bits at a time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they got through this whole torture session session. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then at some point, of course, they take a
Speaker 1: break and leave him alone long in our frame to
Speaker 1: free himself from Yeah, they did something breakfast. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like these people who never saw a movie, right, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: so where they really saw a movie? Yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: so somehow he escapes. So added a few minutes at
Speaker 1: least for shoot to get from wherever he was in
Speaker 1: captivity to where he was spotted on Highway ten. Uh.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of stuff to get done in a
Speaker 1: few hours, as you know, especially the part about leaving
Speaker 1: him alone long enough to escape, because remember when you
Speaker 1: leave the guy alone long est to escape, he's got
Speaker 1: a struggle for a little bit, there's no little drama there, okay,
Speaker 1: And so that's a problem for me with the whole
Speaker 1: Nancy did it scenario, but at least for me. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you gotta also remember that he
Speaker 1: left his house a lot earlier than usual, like an
Speaker 1: hour earlier, which would you think would have screwed up
Speaker 1: the kidnappers plans if they know he always leaves a
Speaker 1: house at six thirty am for the office, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: they theoretically probably would have shown up a little bit
Speaker 1: before he's supposed to leave, but not earlier. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: but when you think about it, if Tracy had done
Speaker 1: the deed, she wouldn't have been constrained by time, since
Speaker 1: she could have lied about when he actually left the house.
Speaker 1: And by the way, she would have known that he
Speaker 1: was leaving an hour early. Uh. And of course, by
Speaker 1: the way, I mean, she could have just for that
Speaker 1: matter of correformed him in his sleep or Bena drilled him,
Speaker 1: or Benna drilled him, or tied him up or duct
Speaker 1: taped him or something. So the hired guys that you know,
Speaker 1: the hitman that you've hired, they come and get him.
Speaker 1: They take him away for a little torture and murder session, right, uh,
Speaker 1: and so it wouldn't have been necessary in that case
Speaker 1: to intercept him in his car somehow. Remember it changes
Speaker 1: the timeline from two hours and forty four minutes too. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: actually she would have had any time between between you know,
Speaker 1: late the night before and fourteen the next day. This
Speaker 1: also makes it not necessary to intercept him in his car, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, it's not as easy as you think,
Speaker 1: because remember he was altering his route to work every day,
Speaker 1: and so you got not just intercept him, but remember
Speaker 1: he's a little paranoid, so coaxing him out of his car,
Speaker 1: you know, would be kind of difficult, But that's again
Speaker 1: not necessary if Tracy is involved. Right, So that makes
Speaker 1: in a in a sense that makes Tracy a better
Speaker 1: suspect and also adds um you that one of the
Speaker 1: things we're not like really talking about so much is
Speaker 1: that you have to intercept his car and then have
Speaker 1: his car go to the location that he then escapes
Speaker 1: from where. So, like, if Tracy did it, it's totally
Speaker 1: plausible that her DNA and fingerprints and all that stuff
Speaker 1: are found all over his car. Should they do a
Speaker 1: forensic investigation of his car because that's his wife, right,
Speaker 1: So if she's involved, she puts him in the car,
Speaker 1: drives him someplace, drives him out, and then he escapes
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh what my cars here cool and
Speaker 1: escapes in that. And then you know, if they were
Speaker 1: to do a some sort of autopsy or whatever on
Speaker 1: the car, yeah, you know, she'd be like, that's my
Speaker 1: husband's car. Of course, my DNA is everywhere, drive it
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah. I could totally see a scenario
Speaker 1: where the guys don't even come to get him at
Speaker 1: the house and she's like you said, she just puts
Speaker 1: him in the in the past, in your seat, and
Speaker 1: drives him to the torture spot. Right. Well, so here's
Speaker 1: a you know, he was driving a little four door Sedan,
Speaker 1: so it was I mean it was yeah, it's such
Speaker 1: a smaller cars, just a fairly cheap economy kind of car,
Speaker 1: but it's a four door. But it would be possible
Speaker 1: if it was Tracy and Philip and an accomplice, they
Speaker 1: all three could have ridden in the same car to
Speaker 1: the torture location. She could have also just been she
Speaker 1: brings him. I mean, so I one of those things,
Speaker 1: right that you know, is going to put me on
Speaker 1: the list or something. Is I googled how much benetual
Speaker 1: lethal dose? Yeah, how much? Um? And it's uh, I
Speaker 1: think it's ten point one billigram to I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's some like big formula, but basically what it says
Speaker 1: is that like, if you weigh a hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: five pounds, seven hundred and fifty seven milligrams have benadro
Speaker 1: will kill you. Um, So you know it's actually I
Speaker 1: mean it's a lot, but um, each pill is about
Speaker 1: twenty five milligrams. So if we can even assume like
Speaker 1: eight hundred milligrams just for like round, it's only thirty
Speaker 1: two capsules, which is like it's a lot for you
Speaker 1: to take willingly, but like, h well, you know, actually
Speaker 1: think that much. And he could have been you know,
Speaker 1: if if she had dosed him, he would have been
Speaker 1: like sleepy, and she would have been like, okay, Phil,
Speaker 1: let's go in the well. He gets up, he's taking
Speaker 1: a shower. She goes, She goes and makes him smoothie
Speaker 1: and ups a bottle of pills in there. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, here's just smoothie here. I always make
Speaker 1: my own smoothies Oh yeah, I'm letting anybody else make
Speaker 1: those things for it anyway. Sorry, there was a bit
Speaker 1: of a derail on that, but it's fine. Um, there
Speaker 1: is there's once one website out there, military corruption dot Com.
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, well they were in there earlier. They've done
Speaker 1: they've actually done a lot of material about this case,
Speaker 1: and they're they're totally totally on the side of the
Speaker 1: murder theory as well as again a lot of other
Speaker 1: people are too. And seriously, I was I would say
Speaker 1: that the murder theory is the prevalent theory out there,
Speaker 1: would you not? I mean you guys. You guys have
Speaker 1: done their research on this. Yeah, I'd say it's it's
Speaker 1: the big theory. In their earlier rights, they totally took
Speaker 1: Tracy's side in this story. But then there's something they
Speaker 1: had a change of heart and decided that Tracy was
Speaker 1: probably the killer after all and not Nancy. Um. And
Speaker 1: I won't lead you to all their reasoning, but they
Speaker 1: are totally convinced that Tracy is the perp in this case.
Speaker 1: And for one thing, they do have some evidence that
Speaker 1: Tracy and Philips marriage was not as idyllic as Tracy
Speaker 1: has made it up. To be well, that's not uncommon
Speaker 1: in these kind of situations though. Yeah, well Tracy made
Speaker 1: it out to be like, oh, you know, he was
Speaker 1: my soul made and but of course the guy is dead.
Speaker 1: And how many times have we read similar things. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean spouses of someone who had died. It's very consistent.
Speaker 1: Behave you don't say, you don't say bad things, and
Speaker 1: you don't say it was such a flaming a whole
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna miss him, because that's that's just
Speaker 1: not what you say. Yeah, but here's something else I
Speaker 1: will say, is that just because someone is your soul
Speaker 1: mate doesn't mean that you're there soul mate, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: like it's possible that she was totally telling the truth
Speaker 1: and saying like he was my soul mate, and what
Speaker 1: she's really saying there is and he was trying to
Speaker 1: leave me, and that happen. I can't have nobody will
Speaker 1: I mean, well, where were we? No? No, I didn't
Speaker 1: mean that at all. Uh, but so it wasn't as idyllic,
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that there's I know a lot
Speaker 1: of people are in so so marriages. Let's Steve, you
Speaker 1: just kidding and and Deva. Not yet, but I'm looking
Speaker 1: forward to it. And here's the thing is that she
Speaker 1: made such a ruckus over this that behavior doesn't match up. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it would be a little strange, don't you think,
Speaker 1: because he made a huge buss he went to court
Speaker 1: and she got she got CBS News, got them the
Speaker 1: interviewer to make a big special about it. And you'd
Speaker 1: think if she had a hand in the killing, she
Speaker 1: would have just kept her mouth shut, because you know,
Speaker 1: if she had actually done the due it was like sweet,
Speaker 1: they declared suicide, they issued to report she could collecting,
Speaker 1: and then just walked away. But yeah, so that's why
Speaker 1: I don't buy Tracy as to kill her. I also
Speaker 1: I agree with that, I mean, like overall, but I
Speaker 1: just want to go ahead and add to this that
Speaker 1: like we don't know it was necessarily going behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes of this where like you
Speaker 1: don't know what her friends were saying to her, right,
Speaker 1: you don't know what people were pushing her to do,
Speaker 1: and she might have felt obligated to do if she were.
Speaker 1: I mean, again, are you are you equating to to
Speaker 1: this the same situation as it was that movie Gone Girl?
Speaker 1: Did you guys see that with who Benn? And I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna screw it. It's been long enough, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: The spoiler alert, Um, he hates his wife and he
Speaker 1: wants to leave her, and then she quote unquote disappears,
Speaker 1: and then when she comes back, he's figured out that
Speaker 1: she staged the entire thing, but he is now forced
Speaker 1: to stay with her because he's, you know, all of
Speaker 1: the social pressure. That's not what I'm saying. I'm more
Speaker 1: saying that, like, you know, you could she could have
Speaker 1: had the group of friends that are like, it's super
Speaker 1: left up what Nancy is doing, Like obviously Nancy had
Speaker 1: him killed. Why aren't you more upset about this? And
Speaker 1: she was like craving out looks suspicious that I'm not.
Speaker 1: She might have actually, she might have actually felt safe
Speaker 1: about that. You know. It's like, you know, well they didn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they didn't collect evidence from the car
Speaker 1: or anything, right, So well, yeah, some I mean, I
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think they just like pulled his
Speaker 1: body out and towed it away. I mean, but by
Speaker 1: the time that she seemed to be raising the rockets,
Speaker 1: she kind of knew what evidence was out there probably
Speaker 1: so she could have known like, oh, yeah, there's nothing
Speaker 1: to it. The only yeah, the only thing she had
Speaker 1: to worry about was if one of her, one of
Speaker 1: her accomplices talked, that would be that would be the
Speaker 1: major worry there. And of course she probably had already
Speaker 1: bumped them off right there and there in a shallow
Speaker 1: graves somewhere out in the desert. She could have had
Speaker 1: no accomplice. That was well, it could it could be
Speaker 1: as she did it all herself. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: But but also as far as the whole just murder
Speaker 1: in general, I've got some issues with it. For one thing,
Speaker 1: there were no defensive wo wounds on his arms or
Speaker 1: his body, like, for example, sometime when he was captured
Speaker 1: or escaped. You know there should have been a struggle.
Speaker 1: Maybe not, I mean if he was drugged for example,
Speaker 1: but still you would think there'd be some sort of
Speaker 1: signs of a struggle from what he was captured. You'd
Speaker 1: see signs around them, like the tape on his wrist,
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't you like extra bruising and stuff or
Speaker 1: stretch the material stretches stretched itself. Yeah, it does stretch. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And the yeah, from the photographs. It does not look
Speaker 1: like it's been strained at all. Really, although you know,
Speaker 1: one thing that I kept thinking about for this, for
Speaker 1: the murder scenario is the autopsy talks about the hesitation marks,
Speaker 1: and I kept thinking about the fact that if his
Speaker 1: shirt had been cut open, his undershirt, it could have
Speaker 1: been from somebody trying to to reach over and get
Speaker 1: him with the knife and and screwing with him and
Speaker 1: then eventually cutting it open and making the the excision
Speaker 1: where and of course then it just happens to line up.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's weird, there's several of these in
Speaker 1: a row, when in fact it's our sadistic murdering fiend
Speaker 1: torturing him even more. And it's misinterpreted. Could have been
Speaker 1: that could have been acul im like, hey, how about
Speaker 1: it cut you right here? It's just a little more yea, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I I know. Uh. You know what else we talked
Speaker 1: about it Besides you you noticed the duct tape had
Speaker 1: not been strained nout. But you can also see this
Speaker 1: in and we talked about this already. It wasn't the
Speaker 1: way it was wound around his wrists and ankles. They
Speaker 1: were individually wrapped and everything again individually wrapped exactly, but
Speaker 1: not like that. Again, like he'd been maybe maybe strapped
Speaker 1: to a chair, but not his not his arms and
Speaker 1: legs strapped together or anything. So that's a little odd.
Speaker 1: The absence of finger prints, this is a real telling
Speaker 1: point for me. The absence on the duct tape of
Speaker 1: fingerprints from him was noted by Dr Cyril Wecht, famous
Speaker 1: celebrity pathologists, uh and a lot of others, a teenage
Speaker 1: evidence that he did not stage his abduction and torture
Speaker 1: because you know, his fingerprints not being on there there
Speaker 1: should have been on there. But in my opinion, this
Speaker 1: is a misreading of the evidence. Yeah, because to me,
Speaker 1: the absence of fingerprints indicates that he did stage is
Speaker 1: abduction because if he had been educted an escape and
Speaker 1: his fingerprints should have been on the duct tape, his
Speaker 1: fingerprints should have been there from the escape from what
Speaker 1: from when he from when he tore the tape and
Speaker 1: did the tape whatever he did to escape, Right, I
Speaker 1: was going to say, I can see a situation where
Speaker 1: he doesn't if if one arm, let's say, just one
Speaker 1: arm gets free, I don't care which one it is,
Speaker 1: and he reached and he can't easy. You know, if
Speaker 1: if their tape behind his back in some fashion, he
Speaker 1: would have to get some sort of tool or implement
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. Let's just say there's
Speaker 1: a big knife sitting there, he reaches behind himself and
Speaker 1: cuts himself free. He would then use that same tool
Speaker 1: on his ankles. Rather than taking the time to grab
Speaker 1: the tape with his hands and begin the process of
Speaker 1: slowly tearing it apart. A knife would go through much quicker.
Speaker 1: I can see where there wouldn't be that, like he
Speaker 1: would just you know, cut, cut, cut, run. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's unlikely though, because I mean
Speaker 1: I think his captors to know that that's possible. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean if you got really really stupid people, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, not only we st dune, we're gonna
Speaker 1: leave this guy here tied to the chair, We're gonna
Speaker 1: leave a big old knife next to him. Yeah. That's
Speaker 1: that's let's go get some job. Yeah, I mean, so
Speaker 1: that's the problem. I don't I don't see any realistic
Speaker 1: scenario where he does not touch that tape at some point,
Speaker 1: at least at least a couple of pieces of it.
Speaker 1: I just don't see it, um, unless he was wearing
Speaker 1: rubber gloves and applied it to himself and it never
Speaker 1: was taped to some other object as you're saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, So if he, if he did put
Speaker 1: it on himself, then it would make sense that he
Speaker 1: applied to himself using the latex disposable gloves, tossed the
Speaker 1: gloves at his car window or whatever, and actually left
Speaker 1: him at the scene when he did all these things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: left at wherever he yeah. Yeah, And the actually using
Speaker 1: gloves to put it on would have been kind of
Speaker 1: the obvious thing to do, I guess. H But again,
Speaker 1: if somebody else had done at those fingerprints should have
Speaker 1: been on there on the tape and they weren't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so I have imagined, though I guess it depends
Speaker 1: on the kind of glove, not all of them, but
Speaker 1: it seems like, especially at that time there before there
Speaker 1: was the whole latex free glove craze. All of those
Speaker 1: gloves they have latex on both the inside and the outside,
Speaker 1: at least some, and so I would imagine that some
Speaker 1: of that latex powder. What is it? What is the powder?
Speaker 1: It's not the Yeah, it's that's that that's latex powder,
Speaker 1: but talcamo, right, but that stuff is all over the
Speaker 1: inside and the outside, and so you would imagine that
Speaker 1: there would have been some residue of that on the
Speaker 1: actual tape itself, no matter who was wearing the gloves.
Speaker 1: I well, yeah, but I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 1: that they tested for that. I'm guessing they must not.
Speaker 1: I mean especially and actually when you when you dust
Speaker 1: something for prints, it might be hard at that point
Speaker 1: to you know, tell the fingerprint dust from the dust
Speaker 1: from the gloves at that point. So yeah, but uh yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, the duct the duct tape is kind of
Speaker 1: a conundrum there, What else are we going to talk
Speaker 1: about it? There was also the light of Kane. Remember
Speaker 1: remember if somebody had wanted to torture on the original
Speaker 1: corners that they wanted to torture, and why would they
Speaker 1: give him given him anesthesia? Well that's a great point,
Speaker 1: you know, unless, of course, they just wanted to take
Speaker 1: his nipples and his pinky for sale in the black market,
Speaker 1: right yeah, King. Yeah, but if the intent was the torture,
Speaker 1: then really, truly the light of King does make no sense.
Speaker 1: But if the wounds were self inflicted, then it does.
Speaker 1: And also speaking of self inflicted, I mean, you guys
Speaker 1: saw the you guys saw the the autopsy report that
Speaker 1: that described the wounds too, and they're different. They're not.
Speaker 1: And then when you see this on the web, it's
Speaker 1: always described as they were removed with surgical precision. They
Speaker 1: were removed with some skill, but I wouldn't say surgical precision. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and there's a difference between the two of them.
Speaker 1: I mean, the right most one had a nice, even
Speaker 1: very well to find little little border around it where
Speaker 1: the cut was made. And then the left most one,
Speaker 1: the border was more irregular and ragging, and it had
Speaker 1: more dishing, and it had more dishing, it was deeper,
Speaker 1: which indicates to me, like you know, you've got your
Speaker 1: strong hand and the one hand is doing what do
Speaker 1: we know? Do we know what shoe right or left handed?
Speaker 1: That I don't know, because I'll be honest with you,
Speaker 1: if I was, if I were to take my own
Speaker 1: nipple off, I'm right handed, then probably my left nipple
Speaker 1: would have the much cleaner cut nipple. That's that's the
Speaker 1: thing I can't quite figure out is that if he was,
Speaker 1: because I assumed all the same as you that it
Speaker 1: was probably was probably left handed, because that I would
Speaker 1: explain why that the right one was a better cut.
Speaker 1: But then again, he chops the last joint of his
Speaker 1: of his left pinky off, so you would think he
Speaker 1: would have been if he was left handed, he would
Speaker 1: have chopped off the right one and not the left right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what you would think, correct, I know, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. But but but again, unless you had two
Speaker 1: different surgeons, or maybe the surgeon was like I had
Speaker 1: some time it was kind of in a hurry on
Speaker 1: the second one or something. Well, okay, so listen. I
Speaker 1: will also say this that part of my job on
Speaker 1: an irregular basis requires me to cut circular holes out
Speaker 1: of paper. And on some of those holes I nail
Speaker 1: it and it is almost a perfect circle and you
Speaker 1: can't tell that it wasn't done by some kind of punch.
Speaker 1: And some of them look like I gave a pair
Speaker 1: of scissors to a two year old to cut that
Speaker 1: circle out. Because sometimes my aim is just often once
Speaker 1: you start, it's not like you can go back and
Speaker 1: fix it, because it'll you know, you just gotta keep going. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the future, there will be undue scissors. Not yet,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like the regularity actually speaks more
Speaker 1: towards somebody else doing it, because there could have been
Speaker 1: a difference in the amount of struggle that was put up. Well, um,
Speaker 1: so so he holds still for one that kicks up
Speaker 1: a fuss with the other one, Well he's gotten maybe
Speaker 1: he's got more drugs in his system for one. Maybe
Speaker 1: he's more more pain and like losing a lot more
Speaker 1: blood for the second one. So he doesn't put us
Speaker 1: much of a fight up. I mean, like there didn't.
Speaker 1: They're just start like there's different circumstances that could be.
Speaker 1: He wasn't bleeding that much from the nipple removal just
Speaker 1: because it was it was, but we don't know which
Speaker 1: one happened, Like we don't know what order any of these,
Speaker 1: but he would not have been losing massive amounts of blood, right,
Speaker 1: but it could have been like right one or left one.
Speaker 1: First right and it's just like kind of mangled and bloody,
Speaker 1: and then they do the like chest wound and he's like,
Speaker 1: oh god, and then they moved on to the right one,
Speaker 1: and by that time he's just like this super hurts.
Speaker 1: I can't struggle, he's worn down, he's losing blood. I
Speaker 1: think that's where I think that's where Joe and I.
Speaker 1: Joe and I have been figuring that the nipple ectomy
Speaker 1: was done one and then the other, and then at
Speaker 1: some point after that the chess cut. Whereas if they
Speaker 1: literally worked their way from right to left or left
Speaker 1: or right across his body, that would explain nut But
Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, it just says self mutilation
Speaker 1: could be, but also could be. I mean, it's there's
Speaker 1: no rhyme when you when you combine that again, you know,
Speaker 1: if that was the only thing, but combined with all
Speaker 1: the other things that you know, and especially the fact
Speaker 1: that lyda cane was used and there were no holes found,
Speaker 1: which means that the injections had to be done at
Speaker 1: where the cuts were done. I don't remember seeing this
Speaker 1: in the autopsy, and I actually don't remember reading this
Speaker 1: when I was reading about lyda cane. But taking it orally,
Speaker 1: it takes quite a while to take effect, and I
Speaker 1: would imagine that they would have been able to identify
Speaker 1: that in the stomach contents, wouldn't you. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: I was trying to think. I don't even if it's
Speaker 1: available on say, any sort of oral form well, know
Speaker 1: what I'm it's a liquid. So what my what where
Speaker 1: I'm going with this is, let's continue to follow this narrative.
Speaker 1: Shoe is tortured, captors go for a cappuccino break, Shoe
Speaker 1: breaks free, looks over and sees the light a cane
Speaker 1: and says, here's a whole violet light a cane and
Speaker 1: just downs it as a general painkiller to get into
Speaker 1: his entire body because he doesn't want to take the
Speaker 1: time to inject it. But I would think that that
Speaker 1: would like numb the hell out of your throat and
Speaker 1: your gut. Not really, it doesn't seem like a really
Speaker 1: good idea. It's all local, Okay, just just reading m
Speaker 1: D here lyda cane's local. But that's yeah. So if
Speaker 1: it if he had drank it, then it would not
Speaker 1: have okay, that doesn't I mean, it would enter his
Speaker 1: blood stream in the same way eventually if he had.
Speaker 1: You know, if it had been injected to locally anaesthize
Speaker 1: anytime anywhere that they were like cutting but swallowing, it'll
Speaker 1: just make your mouth and throw Yeah, yeah, okay, that's
Speaker 1: what I thought. Okay, yeah, and so and he would
Speaker 1: have known that, Yeah, he was a doctor. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, especially the latter case indicates self mutilation to me.
Speaker 1: And of course there is again as you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: he was on when he was on highway, Tanny drove
Speaker 1: right past a cop car that was pulled over the side,
Speaker 1: had its lights flashing and everything, and he drove right
Speaker 1: past it. Um. So that doesn't make you think that
Speaker 1: if he was wanting help, he would have stood on
Speaker 1: the break yah. Yeah, yeah, and he would have you know,
Speaker 1: or he would have just driven by and go, hey, pig, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that'll that. Yeah, that'll always get him, always get him
Speaker 1: to help you. Yeah. And so I got to give
Speaker 1: the whole murder thing to fail, which kind of exonerates
Speaker 1: Nancy and Tracy both plus any other unnamed murderers out there.
Speaker 1: I don't buy the murder theory, which leaves us with
Speaker 1: a couple of more theories. Uh. So our next series
Speaker 1: that it was suicide. Um. And like I said, the
Speaker 1: initial Corner's verse was suicide, which was presented to a
Speaker 1: grand jury, which upheld the verdict. And of course there
Speaker 1: was a psychological autopsy, and uh what the the psychological
Speaker 1: autopsy noted was that he'd been diagnosed by a psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: and he'd been seeing a psychiatrist since December when he
Speaker 1: started having anxiety apparently about these letters and things and
Speaker 1: the insurance. But he was diagnosed as having panic order
Speaker 1: with a goreaphobia, and of course they noted that this
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety just sort of does race the risk
Speaker 1: of suicide. And also he had stopped taking at least
Speaker 1: one of his meds, which was been laughi sine or
Speaker 1: is that van faccine, was also on con which is
Speaker 1: very similar. Yeah, he was also on clint asapam, although
Speaker 1: that he did have some of that in his system. Uh.
Speaker 1: In the autopsy, the med his medication history, he he
Speaker 1: originally began taking just klon aza pam and half a
Speaker 1: milligram twice a day. In May two thousand two, less
Speaker 1: than a year before his death, the clan aspam was
Speaker 1: increased to three times a day and have been laft
Speaker 1: the vent of vaccine was added, and then by the
Speaker 1: time of his death that klan aza pam had been
Speaker 1: doubled again to one milligram three times a day and
Speaker 1: and the venta faccine had been quadrupled. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: that kind of indicates to me that his issues were
Speaker 1: like maybe worsening well, but these were not the only
Speaker 1: medications that they had tried. He had been on multiple medications,
Speaker 1: but every time, it's every medication that he was on.
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, everyone that he was on he
Speaker 1: didn't take anymore because he complained of sexual side effects,
Speaker 1: which is so common with these things. It is, but
Speaker 1: it also he the prescription each time. It sounded, at
Speaker 1: least according to the psychological optops as if he went
Speaker 1: to his doctor and his doctor was like, so you're
Speaker 1: still taking Like, oh no, I I stopped taking that? Well,
Speaker 1: why because problems in bed because of it? Like he
Speaker 1: never did it under the direction of his doctor. I
Speaker 1: wonder if these like increases were not because they were
Speaker 1: increases in symptoms, but because they like it wasn't working.
Speaker 1: And at some point, I think every everybody should do this. Right,
Speaker 1: if you're on if you're prescribed to medication for something,
Speaker 1: you need to evaluate for yourself. Am I getting a
Speaker 1: benefit from this medication and are the side effects worth
Speaker 1: the benefit that I'm getting? Right? And if so, if
Speaker 1: he was experiencing increased side effects and perceived to be
Speaker 1: getting no actual benefits or minimal benefits from this continuing
Speaker 1: increase and increase of dosage. I think it makes sense
Speaker 1: for him to have said I don't want to be
Speaker 1: on these anymore. You know, whether or not that was
Speaker 1: the right decision for him. Usually you should probably like
Speaker 1: include your doctor in that conversation, but we want to talk.
Speaker 1: That's something that people do. I've definitely done it before
Speaker 1: where it's like, you know what this You just keep
Speaker 1: putting me on medication and it's like not actually fixing anything.
Speaker 1: So like what I even doing putting all the stuff
Speaker 1: in my body? Well, it may not be an increase
Speaker 1: in the symptoms so much as the trying to control
Speaker 1: the same symptoms because you have to give it time
Speaker 1: to kind of yeah, but yeah, so it just wasn't working,
Speaker 1: So keep kicking it up and kicking it up and
Speaker 1: kicking it up. But then again, he was on fairly
Speaker 1: high levels of these of these things when he died,
Speaker 1: and again he stopped taking the vantle of vaccine. The
Speaker 1: area is a withdrawal when you when you take these drugs.
Speaker 1: Apparently some of the other things that they noticed some
Speaker 1: besides the drugs and then seem stopping taking them, there
Speaker 1: was a sort of general pattern of strangeness. There was
Speaker 1: this um, this whole thing about the notes, which nobody
Speaker 1: was really sure that he that they were real or
Speaker 1: if he just forged them, and the lack of envelopes
Speaker 1: obviously made people a little suspicious. Another thing that they said,
Speaker 1: and this was written by a psychiatrists and they were
Speaker 1: the ones who wrote this report said, somebody like Shoe,
Speaker 1: who was a professional himself in that business, would probably
Speaker 1: have been able to hide paranoid delusions even from his
Speaker 1: own psychiatrist. He's so familiar with the behavior and everything.
Speaker 1: But I, you know, I I kept looking at the
Speaker 1: list of medications that this guy was on, and I
Speaker 1: gotta tell you you too know this because I've told
Speaker 1: you this story as it was happening. But I have
Speaker 1: an elderly family member who was on, you know, as
Speaker 1: an eight year old person on a lot of medications
Speaker 1: because that's just the norm. And one of them happened
Speaker 1: to be a small doze um mood altering medication when
Speaker 1: and it had surgery and got a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: new medications at it on top and very quickly just
Speaker 1: developed a massive anxiety problem to the point that it
Speaker 1: was so disturbing. I was on the phone with the
Speaker 1: doctor because I had very quickly, you know, it was
Speaker 1: so to short span of time, I could very quickly
Speaker 1: trace it back. But you could see a guy like
Speaker 1: this who's on those those medications and they set that
Speaker 1: panic and that anxiety would slowly build. And then if
Speaker 1: he's bouncing up and down in dosages or then you know,
Speaker 1: self terminating a prescription, it still takes a long time.
Speaker 1: I mean this family member that once we got the
Speaker 1: meds change, I think it was like and this is
Speaker 1: in a very short amount of time, but it was
Speaker 1: like two weeks or something of a complete medical overhaul
Speaker 1: or a prescription overhaul for everything to have come out
Speaker 1: of the system enough that behavior returned to normal or baseline.
Speaker 1: So I mean for a guy like this being on
Speaker 1: that and slowly working, you know, working every day with
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, I could see him very easily
Speaker 1: hiding it and being good at keeping it under his
Speaker 1: hat and and not letting anybody know what was going on.
Speaker 1: And it does sound like he had some some issue.
Speaker 1: I want to clarify when we're talking about the psychiatrists
Speaker 1: that wrote this report, that's that's psychiatrists who they were
Speaker 1: the forensic psychologists. They're psychiatrists after the fact, right, they
Speaker 1: had never spoken to him. They didn't actually have a
Speaker 1: personal relationship with him. They spoke to his psychiatrist and
Speaker 1: she's doctor and everybody else, but they never interactive. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't like his psychiatrists said, yeah, he could have
Speaker 1: been dealing with you know, Okay, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: clarify because they do feel like, not to take away
Speaker 1: from what these people do, but I do feel like
Speaker 1: there's a pretty big distinction of people coming in after
Speaker 1: the fact and like saying, oh, yeah, this vision obviously
Speaker 1: shows that this is what this person was suffering from
Speaker 1: versus people who are people they're dealing with it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: now these go. But but I think these guys had
Speaker 1: the vantage point of knowing things like, for example, that
Speaker 1: she's psychiatrist didn't know because they took on an entire
Speaker 1: investigation into this whole thing. Like for example, one thing
Speaker 1: that they noted was the laptop incident. They thought was
Speaker 1: was really kind of telling from their point of view,
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist because he had he had mentioned to his
Speaker 1: doctor Dr Jozynski uh that his name was the name
Speaker 1: was Dr Joseph Chezinski mentioned that had been stolen. He
Speaker 1: never mentioned that it had been returned, and his wife
Speaker 1: never found that, never found any I never knew about
Speaker 1: any of it. Um They thought that that was rather odd.
Speaker 1: Number one, that he didn't report it to the police,
Speaker 1: number one and number two that and he thought that
Speaker 1: and and they also thought that if he had talked
Speaker 1: to Dr Chezinski about it, that would have given him
Speaker 1: kind of an end that would have given some insight
Speaker 1: into perhaps his personality and his paranoid and kind of
Speaker 1: less rational side, which he never got. Apparently Josynski said
Speaker 1: that he was actually kind of guarded about his about
Speaker 1: his own personal life, and it was not it was
Speaker 1: kind of noncommittal essentially, and so he never really got
Speaker 1: a lot of insights, he said, into his personality and
Speaker 1: he treated him and so did he have parent delusions? Again,
Speaker 1: we don't know. He told Dr Chazynski all about the
Speaker 1: increased vigilance, taking different routes to get to work and
Speaker 1: back the po box instead of the mailbox because of
Speaker 1: the booby trapping, and of course, still with the suicide
Speaker 1: theory that of course the scratches, the tentative, the hesitation
Speaker 1: marks or an indicator and not proof, but an indicator. Uh,
Speaker 1: there is that police carry drove past, which again indicates
Speaker 1: they're not murdering torture, but just he wanted to kill himself. Uh.
Speaker 1: He mostly appeared to have his car to control, because
Speaker 1: the guys that followed him said that he did. He
Speaker 1: swerved around and sloughomed a little bit between the light
Speaker 1: pools monster truck rally for a minute, but then back
Speaker 1: on the freeway, back on the freeway and and stayed
Speaker 1: on it. His brake lights never came on, and so
Speaker 1: that indicates that he wasn't worried about his life. He
Speaker 1: was trying to kill himself. And they also like some
Speaker 1: of the other things, like they were seeing as big positives,
Speaker 1: like you know, he's he's retired, he's got this cool
Speaker 1: new job he's going to get, and he's got this
Speaker 1: cool new house that's were going. But from another point
Speaker 1: of view, that could be seen as well a big
Speaker 1: scary new mortgage. This new career in private practice, well,
Speaker 1: he had been in private practice before he went back
Speaker 1: into the Air Force. He he actually went in and
Speaker 1: then left and then came back later when he tried
Speaker 1: private practice as a psychiatrist and it failed. This was
Speaker 1: his third stint in the Air Force, Yeah, because he
Speaker 1: had been in for four years, got out for a couple,
Speaker 1: went back in, and got out for about ten more
Speaker 1: years when he when he got his degree, and then
Speaker 1: went back in. So he had large and during one
Speaker 1: of the during that second tenure of not being in
Speaker 1: the Air Force, that's when he went into private practice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it didn't work out so well. So yeah, so
Speaker 1: so that was maybe kind of a scary prospect. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, he was retiring with pension, so
Speaker 1: it's not like as scared, like he had a backup.
Speaker 1: He had a hell of a golden parish. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they're two combined. Pensions were good. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously if that hadn't worked out, and then they probably
Speaker 1: would have had to get rid of the enormous house
Speaker 1: because that was way too big a mortgage for there.
Speaker 1: Even for that that's seventy five undred buck bucks a month,
Speaker 1: it's still way too much mortgage there. And but another
Speaker 1: big issue that I have with the suicide theory is
Speaker 1: that Colonel she was wearing a seat belt and he
Speaker 1: was driving a car that hit airbags. But they had
Speaker 1: front airbags and had front airbags, and they didn't have
Speaker 1: side airbags. Now, actually the Mercury, uh, this one did
Speaker 1: have side airbags. You positive about that? This isn't it
Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't it like a nineteen five? Yeah. I did
Speaker 1: a little research on apparently that that particular model was
Speaker 1: a Mercury Tracer in in the ninety three models and
Speaker 1: on apparently they had originally automatic seat belts. Those yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, those were the most annoying thing in the world.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So they phased those out, apparently the ninety
Speaker 1: three models, and replaced them with side airbags, at least
Speaker 1: driver's side airbags. I'm not sure that every one of
Speaker 1: them had, but okay, maybe not. The the Tracer is
Speaker 1: equivalent to the Ford Escort. But here's what I'll say
Speaker 1: is that, like, I don't the air bag thing, like
Speaker 1: find whatever, but the airbags weren't enough to save that.
Speaker 1: Cars have air bags, fine, But like if he was
Speaker 1: trying to kill himself in a car, he like yeah, why,
Speaker 1: well yeah exactly, That's what that's the problem that I have.
Speaker 1: But but here's here's what it comes down to, is
Speaker 1: we have you know, in all tellings of this, they're
Speaker 1: essentially two big theories murder suicide. But I have a
Speaker 1: third one. Wait, wait, I I actually still have something
Speaker 1: on suicide, which is the light acane. Okay, if he did,
Speaker 1: if he did self inject in one of the wound sites,
Speaker 1: so we couldn't see the syringe points or the entry
Speaker 1: points of that. I was if you look at side
Speaker 1: effects of inter venous light a cane application, okay, they're sleepiness,
Speaker 1: muscle twitching, confusion, changes in vision, numbness which is pretty obvious,
Speaker 1: tingling which is pretty obvious, and vomiting. So he could
Speaker 1: have maybe self administered that and injected it, and that
Speaker 1: could have helped him along the path because he may
Speaker 1: have been like, I'm going to I'm going to take
Speaker 1: myself out and then gets a little more confused, which
Speaker 1: is why he's swerving down the road when his intention
Speaker 1: is to, you know, to plow into a light pole.
Speaker 1: But then he's kind of blinking and drifting and he
Speaker 1: actually drifts around things. I mean that that could possibly
Speaker 1: be a factor in it. I know that the levels
Speaker 1: that they found an him were weird, and they really
Speaker 1: they didn't seem to line up. Do you know how
Speaker 1: much was found in his system? I thought it was
Speaker 1: something like I totally wrong on this. I thought it
Speaker 1: was like about half a milligramper lead or something like that.
Speaker 1: Would you like to hear the side effects of benetrol overdose, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would love to extreme sleepiness, confusion, weakness, ringing in
Speaker 1: the ears, blurred vision, large people's dry mouth, flushing, fever, shaking, insomnia, hallucinations,
Speaker 1: and seizures. Yeah, yeah, which you could also So you're
Speaker 1: thinking that, yeah, a combination of all of these drugs
Speaker 1: in his system. And there's also I guess, like just
Speaker 1: to toss out the suicide theory, like to toss a
Speaker 1: little extra into the suicide theater theory is like, what
Speaker 1: if he tried to kill himself with benetrell, woke up
Speaker 1: the next morning or didn't wake up the next morning,
Speaker 1: tried to kill himself benetrol somehow, and then started having
Speaker 1: hallucinations and getting really confused and like when and did
Speaker 1: all these really crazy things and then crashed his car.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a great theory, but it explains
Speaker 1: like some of that stuff because like, who, well, my
Speaker 1: problem with my problem with the whole thing about Benejrol
Speaker 1: and ladder Cane is, uh, he's the guy was a doctor.
Speaker 1: He had all kinds of great drugs available to We
Speaker 1: have far far better drugs for killing yourself available than
Speaker 1: to him than it like benejrol. Why it can I
Speaker 1: think probably that's that's kind of so that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of the issue there. Yeah, I'm not but again I'm
Speaker 1: not saying this totally. This totally rules out suicide. I mean,
Speaker 1: he might have really wanted to kill himself. So what's
Speaker 1: your third theory here? Well, I'm thinking it might have
Speaker 1: just been an accident and you know, well, what if
Speaker 1: he stays to torture. What if he intended to get
Speaker 1: into an accident but he didn't mean it to be fatal.
Speaker 1: So think about it. First of all, well, well, first
Speaker 1: of all, we know he really really wanted to get
Speaker 1: that life insurance policy canceled, right, Yeah, it was first
Speaker 1: of all, he was concerned about his safety. Whether that
Speaker 1: was rational or not, he was definitely concerned about it.
Speaker 1: And there could assob be just the possibility that he
Speaker 1: really because maybe there's a little bit of bitterness because
Speaker 1: of the divorce, maybe the whole idea of Nancy. Maybe
Speaker 1: he has a heart attack and she cashes out to
Speaker 1: get to sweep pay out of a million bucks. Maybe
Speaker 1: that idea just can't really burned him. Yeah right, that
Speaker 1: could be that too, I don't know. But whatever the reason,
Speaker 1: everybody seems to agree he really wanted that life insurance
Speaker 1: policy canceled. Uh. And and maybe he felt even as
Speaker 1: even as a professionally thought well, the policy was causing
Speaker 1: anxiety and it was like this big cloud hanging over
Speaker 1: his life, maybe he felt like if he could somehow
Speaker 1: get that canceled, maybe he felt like his mental state
Speaker 1: would improve and a lot of that anxiety and depression
Speaker 1: might go away, maybe, which is not entirely unreasonable the
Speaker 1: thing to think. Whether it actually would have done that,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But and so he decides to stage
Speaker 1: just kidnapping and torture and make it up here that
Speaker 1: somebody was really out to get him. Uh, And that
Speaker 1: will convince the insurance policy to drop the the insurance
Speaker 1: company excuse me to drop the policy. But again, but
Speaker 1: why the car rect And my thinking there is that
Speaker 1: he wanted an excuse first for maybe some erratic behavior
Speaker 1: and memory loss, because you imagine, you know, you go
Speaker 1: to the cops, you know, with your with your fake
Speaker 1: torture and your duct tape and everything and they're like
Speaker 1: looking at you and kind of asking questions and they
Speaker 1: eventually trip you up and stuff. At its great, you've
Speaker 1: been in a car wreck, you just say, hey, I
Speaker 1: hit my hand, I hit my head. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, dude. So they're probably not going to
Speaker 1: question you quite as intensely if you're like in the hospital.
Speaker 1: You've just had this car, you've been caught up, you're
Speaker 1: missing half your pinky finger and some of your ear,
Speaker 1: and you know they're going to be like, wow, who
Speaker 1: did this? And you're gonna be like, I remember, They're
Speaker 1: gonna be like, all right, well feel better, man? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: You know you're not going to be like okay, and
Speaker 1: which you know they're not going to go into it. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think so at all. Like again, it's it's
Speaker 1: an all perfect excuse. Another thing is if he if
Speaker 1: he was trying to kill himself, if I've actually traced
Speaker 1: his route up Highway ten on street view, he goes
Speaker 1: through three overpasses that had these nice, big concrete pillars
Speaker 1: that he could have actually plowed into and they would
Speaker 1: have done the job really nicely. Yeah. Yeah, And of
Speaker 1: course there were the light poles too. I'm sure they
Speaker 1: would have really worked well. Uh, you know, the the
Speaker 1: Air Force, the arm Services report took this as hesitation
Speaker 1: hesitation behavior. For me, it's like maybe he was looking
Speaker 1: for a softer target then that a big old concrete pillar.
Speaker 1: He may have, you know, when he got airborne, when
Speaker 1: he was swerving in the meding he made may have
Speaker 1: been like, yes, this is when I'm gonna flip crap clip. Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: let's keep on looking. And I gotta say, if you know,
Speaker 1: if he intended to kill himself when when I first
Speaker 1: read about the story, I assumed he plowed head on
Speaker 1: into this tree. I had not seen the trade that
Speaker 1: way a lot, it looks like. And when you actually
Speaker 1: see the pictures, I'm looking at that and I'm seeing
Speaker 1: the side of his car cave in. And one of
Speaker 1: the first questions I had, I asked myself, how exactly
Speaker 1: did he did he do that on purpose? How did
Speaker 1: you do that on purpose? Like like get that tree
Speaker 1: or just cream the side of his car right where?
Speaker 1: You know? How did he get that? Did he do that?
Speaker 1: And as we all know, I said, he clipped the
Speaker 1: passenger side corner. The car spun around clockwise into the
Speaker 1: bigger tree and killed him really good. And I'm kind
Speaker 1: of wondering if maybe he intended to drive between those trees.
Speaker 1: He was not actually driving towards the tree that he
Speaker 1: that killed him. He was driving to the right of it,
Speaker 1: and he would have missed it, thinking he was going
Speaker 1: to go right between, right between these two and maybe
Speaker 1: and maybe hit some smaller trees and yeah, there'll be
Speaker 1: a big kaboom and everything like that, my airbag would
Speaker 1: go off. But but but it turned out those little
Speaker 1: trees were stoutter and hardier than he had planned on.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, that one tree he hit, it spun
Speaker 1: spin around the other one in that tree. I looked
Speaker 1: at the picture as the tree looked like it was
Speaker 1: none the worse for the wear the tree was actually
Speaker 1: tree seemed to be doing just fine. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: that's kind of my thinking, is that quite possibly he
Speaker 1: really didn't intend to kill himself. He didn't commit suicide,
Speaker 1: or if he committed it suicide, I guess, because I mean,
Speaker 1: if he killed himself, it was suicide, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's con best of both worlds.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like, there's still some questions but there's
Speaker 1: lots of big questions on all of the theories for
Speaker 1: me so well. But you know what I I started
Speaker 1: thinking about as we were talking about the last theory
Speaker 1: and this theory, and I'm going to walk down the
Speaker 1: road of possible psychosis, right, That's why I'm walking. But
Speaker 1: I don't know a whole lot about this, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna admit it at the outset, But I just wonder
Speaker 1: if it's the same, if he's having you know, there's
Speaker 1: a delusional personality or a second personality. It's almost like
Speaker 1: remember Fight Club Tyler Dirton, the second character in the
Speaker 1: whole movie, which he's not really a person the whole time, Boilers.
Speaker 1: It's been a long time. If you haven't seen it yet,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. But the point is that it could have
Speaker 1: been that he had something like that going on, and
Speaker 1: so he's this other person that is torturing him and
Speaker 1: chasing him when in reality, while he sees somebody else
Speaker 1: doing this stuff to him, he's doing it to himself
Speaker 1: like he's he's in some sort of altered state. And
Speaker 1: whether that alternate personality is the dominant aggressor the one
Speaker 1: that's doing the attacking or the victim in the whole thing,
Speaker 1: because it could be that the second, the second character
Speaker 1: in his mind who occasionally came out and took over,
Speaker 1: was actually the one that was paranoid and running, and
Speaker 1: so you just you don't know where in his headspace
Speaker 1: he's could have been. I'm just I'm wondering if it's
Speaker 1: if that maybe because that that's a combination of the
Speaker 1: suicide and accident. Is like one part of his brain
Speaker 1: wanted it to happen, the other part didn't, and in
Speaker 1: his struggle it happened, but it wasn't fully consciously intentional.
Speaker 1: That's that's that's kind of recing further into a psyche
Speaker 1: that I think we can I was going to say,
Speaker 1: I would, I would need to talk to some people about,
Speaker 1: like realistically if that happens and what the real world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Hollywood is real. It's not. Yes it is,
Speaker 1: It's definitely not and if it's written in a book,
Speaker 1: it's real, and definitely Chechile lut Nick is not definitely
Speaker 1: not real. I mean he's real, but his stuff is
Speaker 1: so like I would, I would definitely want to know
Speaker 1: more about like the real I don't like how that
Speaker 1: manifests in reality. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just I don't think there's a good theory on
Speaker 1: this case. Yeah, and I don't know. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's always possible. But it's like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: hard to get it's hard to say what was going
Speaker 1: on with a guy totally. He didn't seem to be
Speaker 1: actually that far around the band. I mean the anxiety,
Speaker 1: which is not really that unusual most of us. I mean,
Speaker 1: most people suffer from anxiety exhibited so really weird behavior,
Speaker 1: like the whole thing on the airplane. We we're talking
Speaker 1: about this, but he got he got into a small
Speaker 1: altercation on an airplane at landed in Chicago, and they
Speaker 1: said that he smacked a stewardess on the back. And
Speaker 1: then he's doing all these things like declining commanding a
Speaker 1: unit and all this stuff because he doesn't want to
Speaker 1: smear the service and he's got to get that take
Speaker 1: care of. Like that's really really really oddly obsessively focused
Speaker 1: on what seems like a minor thing. I think he
Speaker 1: was using that. It seems obsessive in one but it
Speaker 1: was like for him, I think, a good excuse to
Speaker 1: avoid doing something. What they were talking about was promoting
Speaker 1: him to a command post, which would have been a
Speaker 1: lot more responsibility, and he might have taken a reading
Speaker 1: of his own psychic state and decided that he didn't
Speaker 1: really need that kind of pressure. Well, he also might
Speaker 1: have said, you know what got four months ago, I
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't take that promotion. Yea, So you can see
Speaker 1: it as there. On the one hand, it was a
Speaker 1: really totally rational response saying, hey, this might break me.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take that command and I'm going
Speaker 1: to make up whatever kind of weak excuse I can
Speaker 1: come up with, I will do it. But we also
Speaker 1: all know like that person who's just always a martyr
Speaker 1: in their lives, you know, where they're always like, oh God,
Speaker 1: I have it so hard. I couldn't possibly, I can't.
Speaker 1: I have to do the right thing for this, for
Speaker 1: the for the good of the greater good, I can't.
Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly give my But we all know people
Speaker 1: like that, and it's totally possible that he was maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit like that, and he you know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't like a delusional thing. He was just kind of
Speaker 1: one of those weirdos Queen Yeah, who was just like, no, no,
Speaker 1: my issues are just too big shoulder. I couldn't possibly
Speaker 1: And we're not mocking that, by the way. It's just
Speaker 1: I mean that we're trying to rationally just got stuff.
Speaker 1: So but it's impossible and we're gonna I mean, we
Speaker 1: could literally sit here for another oh my god, another
Speaker 1: two No, I just it's not Yeah, I think though
Speaker 1: that And that's another reason I like. I prefer the
Speaker 1: I prefer the whole thing about the accident because I
Speaker 1: see number one. If assuming, for example, Nancy didn't want
Speaker 1: to kill him, he had a great way to deny
Speaker 1: her that million bucks, which is just don't die. Don't
Speaker 1: kill yourself. That's all I do to keep the to
Speaker 1: keep the X from getting the million bucks. It's just
Speaker 1: the gym every day, yeah, yeah, right, you know, and
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and so bring her killing him, borrying
Speaker 1: her killing him exactly, and so work every day. But
Speaker 1: the other thing reason I don't, I don't buy into
Speaker 1: the course and again, suicide or not I was rational
Speaker 1: is if so much of his anxiety came from this
Speaker 1: fear that he was going to get murdered for the money,
Speaker 1: and then well, what's the response. I'm gonna go kill myself. Dude,
Speaker 1: I thought that's what you were afraid of, you know,
Speaker 1: And but yeah, like you said, it's like not so
Speaker 1: it's like he gets the worst of with this. It's
Speaker 1: like he kills himself, which he was terrified of, and
Speaker 1: the X gets a million box which he didn't want
Speaker 1: to have to see happen. And so it's like, that's
Speaker 1: why I'm still liking accident over suicide. But of course
Speaker 1: we'll never entirely probably not for a fact. I'm certain
Speaker 1: in my own mind at least that he was not
Speaker 1: murdered and not towards I think the accident there is
Speaker 1: a really good one. I think he talked about fight club. Yeah. Good,
Speaker 1: a minute too. Well, anyway, let's let's do a little
Speaker 1: housekeeping before we signed off for this week. Naturally, you're
Speaker 1: probably gonna have an opinion on this, you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to share it, of course, that's okay. We have an
Speaker 1: email just for that, Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: And of course we have a web page which is
Speaker 1: also of course called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where
Speaker 1: you can find our our episodes. Uh you can find
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Speaker 1: thinking sideways and what's going on in the reddit devon?
Speaker 1: Anything good? Now? Okay? Yeah, what have I forgotten anything?
Speaker 1: All right? Well, that's it for this week. So I
Speaker 1: don't have any snappy No, I don't. All right, see
Speaker 1: you guys, bye, oh bye, guys. Better everybody,