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Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you

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Speaker 1: by the disappearance of my neighbors. Instead, it's brought to

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Speaker 1: you by somebody who might be able to find my neighbors,

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Speaker 1: or maybe not, or is responsible for their disappearance. Gosh,

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Speaker 1: I hope not. Anyway, it's a pet from your local shelter.

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Speaker 1: It could be a dog, it could be a cat,

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Speaker 1: it could be a horse, it could be a parakeet.

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Speaker 1: Who knows what kind of thing you could find there,

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Speaker 1: But that thing I know you will find there is love.

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Speaker 1: So you can adopt from a shelter, or you can

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Speaker 1: volunteer your time, or you can donate money because they

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Speaker 1: always need more money to take care of all the

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Speaker 1: pets that are looking for their wonderful forever homes. So donate,

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Speaker 1: spend time, adopt, find my neighbors. Hi there, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host, Joe, joined

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Speaker 1: as always by Steve and Devin. Yeah, and of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: another mystery. Okay, another week, another mystery. Alright, So this

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Speaker 1: week we've got a really intriguing story for you guys.

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Speaker 1: I know it sounds like he's sarcastic, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: This is actually an interesting story. It actually it's kind

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Speaker 1: of an interesting story. I'm actually glad that you've covered

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Speaker 1: this one, Joe, because I have read up on this

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Speaker 1: multiple times and have been so baffled. I wasn't ready

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Speaker 1: to dig into it. So I'm glad you picked it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I finally and I got into it, and I

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Speaker 1: was convinced of kind of leaning towards one thing, and

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Speaker 1: I started started leading towards another thing, you know, but

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Speaker 1: by the time I was done looking at it, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting when it happens. Yeah. Oh, a

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Speaker 1: quick warning with this, this story does depict some torture

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Speaker 1: and unpleasant things like that. So again, if you have

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Speaker 1: little leers see a doctor, if you've got a kid around,

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Speaker 1: then you might want to like turn it off till

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Speaker 1: the kids not here anymore. But so you probably want

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Speaker 1: to know what the mystery is. That's and they'll come

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Speaker 1: up right after this break, Okay, just can What we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about is a strange death of Colonel Philip Shoe,

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Speaker 1: who was in the Air Force and stationed at Laughlan

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Speaker 1: Air Force Base in Texas. This happened in two thousand three.

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Speaker 1: He died in the car crash, and the circumstances of

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Speaker 1: the crash were a little strange. I would say, uh

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Speaker 1: if at first it looked like a straight up traffic accident,

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Speaker 1: but when the police took a closer look at his body,

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Speaker 1: they found evidence that he had been tortured, like and

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Speaker 1: not just in the distant past, but like that day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but none. Despite all that, that's kind of hanky if

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Speaker 1: you ask me, his death was still ruled a suicide

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Speaker 1: by the Air Force, also by the local police. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: also very hanky. But there are people out there, naturally,

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Speaker 1: including his widow and his friends, who think that he

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Speaker 1: was murdered maybe, And in fact, one judge in Texas

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Speaker 1: this is a sort of pursuing it to a lawsuit,

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Speaker 1: did declare that Philip Sho's death was a homicide, although

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Speaker 1: apparently that had no legal bearing. Apparently the judge still

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Speaker 1: it was just that was his opinion. But yeah, but

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Speaker 1: as far as the police and the Air Force are concerned,

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Speaker 1: it's still suicide. But was it? Who knows? Well, we'll

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Speaker 1: find that out. Yeah, Well, we always solve our mysteries.

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Speaker 1: First off, let me stop and give a shout out

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Speaker 1: to Mr w I know who you are. Mr W.

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Speaker 1: It's either George W. Bush or it's Harvey Weinstein. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure which, but that's the first thing who suggested this.

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Speaker 1: Mr W as the person who suggested this story. So thanks. Alright,

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Speaker 1: start from the beginning. Colonel Philip Shoe was fifty four

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Speaker 1: years old. He was a psychiatrist at Lackland as I

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Speaker 1: said in Texas. He was married to Tracy Shoe, who

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Speaker 1: we had met in the Air Force. She was his

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Speaker 1: second wife. She was also in the Air Force. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she had She had just recently retired. She was had

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Speaker 1: retired and was then was a slacker. But so Philip

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Speaker 1: Shoe divorced his first wife, Nancy Shoe in They had

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Speaker 1: one son together, and as part of that divorce agreement,

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Speaker 1: Nancy was allowed to keep an insurance policy on Philip

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Speaker 1: for a million bucks. Wait, hang on, I think we

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Speaker 1: just misspoke. Nancy was not in the service. It's a

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Speaker 1: second Tracy. Yeah, that's what I said, his second wife, Tracy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I suddenly misconstrued what was going

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Speaker 1: I was like, what did we just say that? Wrong?

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Speaker 1: And so, to be clear, that insurance policy was taken

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Speaker 1: out in ninety two when they divorced initially correct or

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Speaker 1: thereabouts or to the divorce. I am not entirely shure.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was prior to that she was allowed

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Speaker 1: to keep it and maintain. Yeah, to be clear, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess the thing that I was trying

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Speaker 1: to clarify was this insurance policy was taken out either

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Speaker 1: before their divorce or you know, around the time of

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Speaker 1: their divorce, not like five years later or nine or

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Speaker 1: eleven years later, lawyer during the divorce, So she basically

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Speaker 1: got whatever she wanted, and somehow in the proceeding that

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Speaker 1: insurance policy was part of it. Yeah, I I and

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Speaker 1: I assume it's it's not totally illegitimate. I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: probably paying shout out support. They had a son together. Probably, Well,

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Speaker 1: if you get killed, we got to even make sure

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Speaker 1: that the gets a college education and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know, it makes sense to me, especially you know

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Speaker 1: in the Air Force. If there's a probability of he

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Speaker 1: was an active duty in terms of combat active duty,

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Speaker 1: that can change. Yeah, not with his line of his

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Speaker 1: life work was a psychiatrist, but you never know. Even

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Speaker 1: there gets a psycho guy that's a patient and he

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Speaker 1: kills you or you know, I mean there's there's are

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Speaker 1: You're just sitting in your office being all psychiatry and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly something in fifty and just overshoots the runway

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Speaker 1: and plows right to your office, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's danger anyway, That's all. I was trying to take

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Speaker 1: the psychiatrist's office at the end of the runway, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or really any office. Yeah, anyway, I was just trying

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Speaker 1: to be clear that that had happened, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: earlier than it wasn't like oh yeah, and then two

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Speaker 1: months later he died mster. Yeah no, And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure it could have actually been an ongoing thing. It

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Speaker 1: might have been that he'd been insured for like years

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Speaker 1: prior to the divorce too. I'm not really totally sure.

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Speaker 1: There's no information about that out there, frankly, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of information about this case, so if you

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Speaker 1: want to go looking for it, y yeah, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: that particularly, Yeah, there is. But the insurance policy did

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Speaker 1: become a little bit a little bit of an issue

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Speaker 1: later on, which I see, Yeah, surprised, But anyway, Philip

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Speaker 1: should have been in the Air Force for a while

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Speaker 1: and as you all know, in the military, at least

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Speaker 1: in the US, you get to retire after twenty years

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Speaker 1: and you get to have a pension, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of sweet. You know, you can retire pretty young and

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Speaker 1: have a nice pension. My neighbors are one of them

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Speaker 1: is I think thirty seven, it's not true, thirty seven. No,

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Speaker 1: she's forty and he's forty seven, and they're both retired

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Speaker 1: Navy or something like that, and it's just like that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my dad retired from the military at forty

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Speaker 1: five and then went in the private sector and makes

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Speaker 1: great money because he's got that pension that's coming in

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Speaker 1: on top of his regular income. Yeah, it's a great deal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a good deal. Yeah. But anyway, but so he

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Speaker 1: was planning on retiring on October two thousand three. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and he had been accepted into a program to study

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Speaker 1: forensic psychiatry and Alabama, and so his plan was to

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Speaker 1: finish out that program, going to private practice, make lots

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Speaker 1: of money, uh, the pension, and also have his pension

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Speaker 1: and Tracy's pension. She retired of a pretty decent peture herself. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So they had just put down an offer on a

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Speaker 1: nice house in Birmingham, Alabama, which was accepted. I was

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Speaker 1: about a week before his death. And I've seen pictures

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Speaker 1: of the house and it's really nice, big, huge, two

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Speaker 1: story brick house, nicer than mine, believe it was six

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Speaker 1: or seven six they were paying for and I mean

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Speaker 1: for two people. Frankly, it was a lot of house.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge freaking house. But they were going

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Speaker 1: to be making seventy hundred bucks a month and plus

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Speaker 1: whatever we're gonna come to two of them from whatever job.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't sport. I just didn't be hurting for money.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no, definitely not. It just seemed like a

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Speaker 1: really big house for two people. People. Yeah. But long

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Speaker 1: in the short though, is that, at least according to Tracy,

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Speaker 1: everything was going great for her and Phil. He said

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Speaker 1: that Phil was happy about life, really looking forward to

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Speaker 1: retirement and his new his new psychiatry practice and and

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. And uh, and so you know, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't depressed or suicidal or anything like that, he gordon

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Speaker 1: to her. But then things went south. April sixty, two

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Speaker 1: thousand three. Uh, Philip and Tracy were living in the

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Speaker 1: town of Bernie, Texas, and that's spelled b O E

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Speaker 1: r n E at first I thought it was Born

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Speaker 1: like the Born Supremacy thing. Yeah, but it's like it's

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Speaker 1: Bernie like the Sanders. Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's Bernie.

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Speaker 1: Uh that's of course. Phil worked at Lackland Um. By

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Speaker 1: the way, Yeah, by the way, Bernie is about twenty

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Speaker 1: five miles northwest of San Antonio, Okay, and it's close

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Speaker 1: to the Air Force base. Yeah yeah, kind of clothes

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Speaker 1: um to commute. Yeah. So Philip left the house about

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Speaker 1: an hour early that day, around five thirty am, because

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Speaker 1: he said he wanted to get to the office early

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Speaker 1: to get some paperwork done. And that was the last

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Speaker 1: time Tracy saw him alive at eight fourteen. Just a

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Speaker 1: few hours later that same morning, Phil's carr was seen

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Speaker 1: in Highway ten, which is a freeway that runs through Bernie.

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Speaker 1: It comes from San Antonio up northwest through Burnie and

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Speaker 1: then i'll beyond into the desert and well beyond. And

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Speaker 1: so let me describe ten. First, Highway ten when it

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Speaker 1: goes through Bernie, is is two lanes in east direction,

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Speaker 1: and there's a big huge grass Meradian in between the

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Speaker 1: lanes the north and the south. Yeah yeah, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: there's there's at least like a hundred feet wide strip

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Speaker 1: of grass feet in between the north and southbound lanes.

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Speaker 1: So Phil was seeing going north northbound at mile Market

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Speaker 1: five forty three, which would be southeast burning and he

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Speaker 1: was headed northwest. And then two guys whose names I've

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Speaker 1: never been able to establish. Uh, these guys appeared on

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Speaker 1: CBS forty eight hours did a special on this one,

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Speaker 1: and these two guys appeared in there or either that

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Speaker 1: they were actors impersonating you guys. I'm not sure, whish,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't name them they were. They didn't say

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Speaker 1: who they were. I mean, I which I thought was

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Speaker 1: strange conspiracy. Yeah, well could be, I mean maybe, So

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Speaker 1: to clarify, I'm sorry. That would have been the way

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Speaker 1: he would have been heading northwest to get to work. No,

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Speaker 1: he would have been heading the other way to get southwest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he would have been heading southeast to southeaster or whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he would have been heading that direction to to go

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Speaker 1: back to his home and Bernie. I'm not not sure

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Speaker 1: which which exit. There are three freeway exits to get

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Speaker 1: to Bernie, so he would have taken one of those

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Speaker 1: to get home, and not sure, but I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to be sure to mention he was heading in the

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Speaker 1: wrong direction. He was not yet, he was no longer

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Speaker 1: heading to work. That is a good point. In fact, well,

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Speaker 1: in fact, he never was seen at work that day, right,

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Speaker 1: And do they know do we know what time he

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Speaker 1: was seen at that mile marker was when it was

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Speaker 1: age fourteen? Yeah, okay, so a couple of hours later. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So he's driving north on Highway ten and these two

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Speaker 1: guys see him. He's in the right lane, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly he swears from the right lane across left, across

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Speaker 1: the freeway to the median into the grass, starts bouncing

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Speaker 1: along in there and driving wildly through it. There's light

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Speaker 1: poles in there, and so he was like swallowing between

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Speaker 1: a few of these light poles and stuff. And then

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Speaker 1: eventually it hits uh, some object that's unclear what it was.

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Speaker 1: That that actually cost him to get a little bit

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Speaker 1: airborne bump or something. Yeah. Yeah, And and so he

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Speaker 1: got kind of airborne, came down, um, came back down,

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Speaker 1: but kept it under control, got back on the freeway,

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Speaker 1: kept driving north on the north on the right side

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Speaker 1: of the road. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly. He just

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Speaker 1: saw this is very abnormal. It along he looks over

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Speaker 1: there says hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well apparently it was

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Speaker 1: unusual enough even protextas that it attracted these guys. Notice

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Speaker 1: they kept following him. He was going about sixty and

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Speaker 1: he went about five four miles north past the John's

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Speaker 1: Road exit which you can find on on the aerial

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Speaker 1: if you look for it, and that's mile Market five

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Speaker 1: thirty nine. But he continued to pass that mile Market

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Speaker 1: that was the last exit to Bernie which would take

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Speaker 1: him home. Um, and then continue to pass the underpass

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Speaker 1: which is St. John's Road, and then there's there's an

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Speaker 1: entrance from St. John's Road northbound there. So just at

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Speaker 1: the at the end of that, it kind of cross

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Speaker 1: that and left the freeway to the right one across

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Speaker 1: some grass onto another road. There's a parallel road there

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Speaker 1: called frontage Road. They're always called frontage they are, they

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Speaker 1: really are. And across that road, headed across a little

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Speaker 1: more grass and hit a standard trees. His right front

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Speaker 1: bumper of his car clipped a tree, and then his

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Speaker 1: car spun clockwise around the passenger side, Yeah, the passenger side,

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Speaker 1: So that corner just clips of tree and becomes and

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Speaker 1: that and the car just spins quite rapidly around and

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Speaker 1: smashed into another tree and the tree at the driver's

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Speaker 1: side door and really caved it in good. I mean

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Speaker 1: the car is really bent. About the Saudi pictures of it,

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Speaker 1: it's bent pretty good. He literally did wrap it around

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Speaker 1: a tree. Uh. And he died on the spot from

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Speaker 1: massive head injuries. And of course the police showed up, because,

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Speaker 1: as we all know, cops are morbidly fascinated by car

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Speaker 1: erect right, That's why I'm pretty sure, Hey, freddie correct,

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Speaker 1: let's go man. Yeah. So they show up and when

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Speaker 1: they're done taking selfie's and posting him on Facebook and stuff,

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Speaker 1: they started looking at the wreck, and they looked at

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Speaker 1: his body, and obviously they had to see if he

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Speaker 1: was alive. He was obviously dead actually, and the two

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Speaker 1: anonymous guys that followed had stopped, and that's what one

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Speaker 1: of them says. So, yeah, we went up to see

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Speaker 1: if he needed any help, and we just looked at

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Speaker 1: him and taking, oh, no, he's dead. Yeah, even the

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Speaker 1: non experts agreed he's dead. But they started looking at

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Speaker 1: him more closely that I was part of his left

265
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Speaker 1: ear had been cut off, not like torn off in

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Speaker 1: an accident, but cut off the last joint of his

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Speaker 1: left picky finger had also been cut off, and it

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Speaker 1: seemed kind of unlikely he've gotten those entries from the wreck.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, those pieces of them were not

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Speaker 1: found at the crash scene, not found in the car,

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Speaker 1: weirdly enough. And then they looked at it, says clothes.

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Speaker 1: His shirt was torn, partially unbuttoned. The T shirt underneath,

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Speaker 1: you know, this had been slipped, so he had it's

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Speaker 1: military uniforms. Who he's got a button up shirt with

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Speaker 1: then a always the tan T shirt underneath. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and the T and the tan T shirt had been

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Speaker 1: cut basically from the neck almost to the waist. It

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Speaker 1: was I'm trying to remember in the pictures, is it

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Speaker 1: is it? The collar is still intact, So it's not

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Speaker 1: as if the shirt is completely cut from the neck

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Speaker 1: to the down to the waistline, right, It's it was

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Speaker 1: only a portion of it. Yeah, but it's still still

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Speaker 1: enough to allow entrey for Oh yeah, yeah, no, I

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Speaker 1: just I'm trying to make sure that we get it across.

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Speaker 1: And it's not as if somebody cut it from the

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Speaker 1: top all the way down and it was open. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: But but so there's his long, inexplicable cut. The T

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Speaker 1: shirt's got some blood. All that's the lower part of it.

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Speaker 1: And so his head is bleeding, but it's not really

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Speaker 1: blood from his head is blood from other wounds on

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Speaker 1: his body, not a result of the car wrec. Well,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I was that six inch long cut? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he had a long cut down the middle of his

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Speaker 1: chest that was not from the car wrec. It had

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Speaker 1: been made with a knife or a scalpel or something. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It was six inches long about an inch wide. And

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Speaker 1: when I saw it, I thought, while somebody had made

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Speaker 1: the cut and then and then the two sides had

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Speaker 1: just separated. But according to the autopsy, and they said,

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Speaker 1: now it's the skin had actually been removed. So and

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Speaker 1: my wait, I hate to dive into these kind of

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Speaker 1: details early on, but I need to understand this because

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Speaker 1: it's it's been bothering me this whole time. Am I

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Speaker 1: to understand? When I read the autopsy it said that

305
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Speaker 1: I didn't get it and I thought about it later.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean somebody actually made two incisions and they

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Speaker 1: were at say a forty five degree angle, and where

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Speaker 1: they met that come completely freed that strip of skin

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Speaker 1: to be an inch wide, it would I see what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. Yeah, no, I think that it looks like

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Speaker 1: if you look at the end of it's like two

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Speaker 1: parallel cuts and then they come together at the ends.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, what I think happened is that the cuts

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Speaker 1: were made and then it was like the center that

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Speaker 1: there was they sort of were tapered together, and then

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Speaker 1: that little piece was just peeled down. That's what I think. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like my answer better. But okay, yeah, well that's

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Speaker 1: that's one of the most ancient nasty torture techniques out there.

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Speaker 1: Playing somebody alive. You've heard that. There's a reason it's effective.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's nasty. Also like super illegal. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: like any I mean, you know, yeah, it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: it doesn't still happen, does but hopefully but less it's

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Speaker 1: less common. What's which is progress? Right? Okay until we

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Speaker 1: go tour go one to yeah, yeah, and let's see

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Speaker 1: what else. Oh yeah, one more more more little detail.

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Speaker 1: His nipples have been cut off. That was That was

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Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm sorry again, we gotta go a

328
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Speaker 1: little bit into this and you may not know the answer.

329
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Speaker 1: Was it like a scalpel cut around or was it

330
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Speaker 1: like a pension slice. It was more like a scalpel

331
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Speaker 1: cut around and it was super super shallow. They barely

332
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Speaker 1: took the skin underneath the areola down away. It just

333
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Speaker 1: kind of dished out. It wasn't as if they took

334
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 1: a like a quarter inch or half. Didn't just pulling yeah, no,

335
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 1: no pulling lopa. I was sure it was still kind

336
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,640
Speaker 1: of good. Oh yeah yeah yeah. And see what else?

337
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 1: Also and another interesting detail. His wrists and his ankles

338
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Speaker 1: had duct tape on them, like wrapped around them, as

339
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Speaker 1: if he had been maybe a bound hand and foot. Um,

340
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Speaker 1: And there are pieces of the tape hanging off about

341
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Speaker 1: three before inches long, like they like maybe he had

342
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: like broken the tape or like he had been cut

343
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 1: for a year kind of torn it. I mean, you

344
00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 1: can tear duct tape pretty easily cross ways. I just wondering,

345
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Speaker 1: like if you were bound you know, hand or foot, Yeah,

346
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: if he just like pulled them apart, or no you can't.

347
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,600
Speaker 1: I'm not strong enough. Maybe I'm not. Here's the distinction

348
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 1: we need to make. I know exactly. Devon just did

349
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Speaker 1: the wrist together motion. His wrists weren't taped together. It

350
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 1: was one wrist was taped, and then the other wrist

351
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 1: was taped, and then somehow they appear to have been

352
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Speaker 1: attached to each other with possibly that extra three or

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Speaker 1: four inches of taped it or taped to some other objects. Yeah,

354
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Speaker 1: because yeah, I think it looked more to me like

355
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Speaker 1: because the tape in both both rist was wrapped around

356
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 1: the wrist and there was one end hanging off, So

357
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,679
Speaker 1: it looked more to me like maybe he had been

358
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Speaker 1: tied to a chair. Yeah. And so the same with

359
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Speaker 1: his ankles too, you know. So it's not like they

360
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 1: put his wrist together and wrapped him his ankles together,

361
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,880
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, or his ankles yeah, yeah, the same thing.

362
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: Neither risk no ankles. Yeah, but that was I think

363
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 1: that's also an important distinction. Yeah. And so, um, but

364
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 1: he did have this duct tape on him, so that's interesting.

365
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: It looked like somebody had tied him up and tortured him. Okay,

366
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,360
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, there was an autopsy Yeah, yeah,

367
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 1: I believe it or not that revealed that Philip Shoe

368
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 1: had latto cane in his system. Latto cane is isn't

369
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: It's an anesthetic. Um. Usually it's like if you have

370
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,960
Speaker 1: to get stitches or something like that. They'll inject a

371
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: little into the skin around the wound, you know, maybe

372
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 1: and nom it that kind of thing. I don't know

373
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Speaker 1: if they use latto cane for dental work or not. No,

374
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 1: but if you've ever had um like a yes, that

375
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, that's exactly what they use it for.

376
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: Or they just don't. Well they do. But I think

377
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 1: unless you've got you know, igor the torture for a doctor,

378
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 1: and that's your own fault for choosing that provider. I

379
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,440
Speaker 1: should have been tipped off when his name was It's true, Yeah,

380
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 1: I like these. Okay, sorry, So he had light cane

381
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: in his system. Oh yeah, no drugs or alcohol and

382
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 1: no no illicit drugs there. There was some better drill.

383
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,680
Speaker 1: But you know, he probably had allergies, nothing to suspicious

384
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: in April, particularly in April. Yeah, yeah, that's the light

385
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 1: of cane. The corner concluded in his report that it

386
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 1: came from a topical Lydakan cream that she had prescribed

387
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: for himself a week or two before the accident. Being

388
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, he had access to write prescriptions. Psychiatrists, I

389
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: mean they're essentially as you know, as good as medical doctors,

390
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 1: you know, yeah. In fact, you've got to go to

391
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 1: medical school to because our psychiatrists, you know. So, Yeah,

392
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: did anyone know why he prescribed the let of cane

393
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 1: cream to himself? No, that's a good question, but I

394
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe it just to get high. Probably, I

395
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 1: don't think that's how that works. But okay, it's my

396
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 1: favorite line in the show. That's not how it works,

397
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 1: how any of this works. Yeah, some other miscellaneous items. Shoes,

398
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 1: wallet was missing, I want to say shoes. Shoes were missing,

399
00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 1: but these shoes were on him, damn it. Yeah. But

400
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 1: he did have forty seven bucks in cash in one pocket, uh,

401
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 1: and half in change and a bucket half in change

402
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: also in the other pocket, and one of them and

403
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 1: he was wearing his fatigue pants, so they had cargo pockets.

404
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: There was a small flashlight probably like a little led light,

405
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: and his b d us. Yeah. Uh. In the car

406
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: there there there was found one straight razor, two pocket knives,

407
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 1: one late text disposable glove unused, and an open package

408
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 1: of small gauge needles in the glove box. Yeah. So

409
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 1: just I just thought it throw that. So it's a

410
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: random assortment of things. I mean, you would do you've

411
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 1: you went into my car, there would be a hodgepodge

412
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: of stuff. It's probably a couple of pocket knives in

413
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: my car. At least, there's no straight razors that I

414
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: didn't remember. Yeah, it's the straight razor in the late

415
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 1: text clove. Though. I understand he worked with medical equipment,

416
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 1: so I get why he could have had three pairs

417
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 1: of late tex gloves in my that's because you abduct people, Yeah,

418
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: but it's not. But it's actually not that unusual. I know,

419
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 1: I know Pete people who carry a pair of LATEX

420
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: gloves in their car just in case there's a wreck

421
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: and they need to do this your first aid, you know,

422
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: post HIV and hepatitis C and everything like that. A

423
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: lot more people are a little squeamish about coming into

424
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: contact with blood. That weird to have a set of

425
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,360
Speaker 1: gloves in your car that, yeah, No, seriously, have three

426
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: pairs in my clutch purse that you've seen me carrying around.

427
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: I have three pairs of I have a full first

428
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: aid kid in there. I also have a bunch of

429
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 1: gloves in my car, but I don't have any straight

430
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 1: razors or unopened hypodermic needles. Bring that purse with you

431
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: to the next dress event that we have to go to,

432
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: and then will be at the table with people. How

433
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: are you doing? Oh great? And then you just open

434
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: up your purse to start pulling out I brought him

435
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: to the meet up. Well, I'm like, you should have

436
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 1: done that. A crime card been perfect. I can next time. Yea.

437
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: Some of you may have noticed the doors are locked

438
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: because you put the gloves on, but no, I mean

439
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: I do it because first aid. I mean, I know,

440
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: you guys know I'm certified, So I feel like I

441
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: would like to protect myself if I were to, you know,

442
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: have to save a life. Absolutely's not a bad idea.

443
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, you know, there's yeah, there's like

444
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: random stuff rattling around people's cars, but the straight razor

445
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: and the needles are a little weird. Well even the needles. Again,

446
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: he had he was you know, he was a doctor presumably,

447
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,959
Speaker 1: but so and yeah, what happened, that's a good question.

448
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: The local corner looked at the autopsy reports and looked

449
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: at the other evidence, and it concluded that she was

450
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: death was a suicide, even though it looked from all

451
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: appearances like she would been abducted and tortured. Uh, that

452
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: you've been tied up in tortured. It looked like he

453
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: had somehow escaped, driven north trying to get away from

454
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: his tortures. That's the way a lot of people see

455
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: this particular story. Yeah, frankly, that's kind of what it

456
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: looks like. Yeah, you think, but notetheless, he declared it

457
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: a suicide, and he based this on a few some evidence. Okay,

458
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 1: first of all, the the six inch long cut in

459
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: his chest. Uh, there were about a half a dozen

460
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: I think five shallow scratch marks next to that cut.

461
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: Were those at the top of the bottom? Do you remember?

462
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: I think they were on the side of it? Well, no,

463
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: I mean like, were they near the top of the

464
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: incision or near the bottom? I think I think they're

465
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: the topent sure on that, And so in his mind,

466
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: those appear to be hesitation marks what you're found on

467
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: typically found on people who say cut their risks committing suicide.

468
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: And that's you know, people sometimes you know, can't write

469
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: commit at first, and eventually they make up their minds

470
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: to do it. And yeah, yeah, I mean hurting yourself,

471
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: there's you're going to have some hesitation no matter what

472
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: I would think. So yeah. The corner also noted that

473
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: she would be getting psychiatric treatment for depression and anxiety,

474
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: which of course increased the risk for suicide. Yeah, that's

475
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: the word. Would I say that? But yeah, it kind

476
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: of does. Yeah, well, I mean suffering from depression anxiety

477
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: increases your risk of suicide. Not the seeking of treatment

478
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: for those things. Oh well, yeah, that's what I sorry,

479
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: that's what I mean. It's like seeking treatment is probably

480
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: a good idea, probably. Yeah, well, what else he knows

481
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: he noticed that shoe when he was driving north on

482
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,479
Speaker 1: the freeway, drove past three Access to Bernie, which is, uh,

483
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: if he was actually fleeing from from his tortures, that's

484
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: what you would kind of expect him to do to home,

485
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: head home, or head to the police station something. I

486
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: would say, police station maybe, but home, not necessarily home.

487
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 1: You don't want to lead well somebody home. Yeah, they

488
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: probably know where you live already, and yeah, but they don't.

489
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: You want to just get off and scream around the

490
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: city until you drive past a cop, you know? And yeah, yeah,

491
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: well yeah he kind of was asked him to be

492
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: pulled over cop. Yeah, I know he did on the

493
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: on the freeway. Uh, what else uh. And and then

494
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: he wove through the light poles as I mentioned earlier,

495
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: and that was interpreted by the authorities as suicidal hesitation.

496
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: So he's thinking, yeah, I'm gonna ply to that plot

497
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 1: one of that big light post right there, and then

498
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: it all but then it loses his nerve swerves, you know,

499
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: and so after a few tries, he says, screw it,

500
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: let's go back on the freeway, look for look for

501
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: something better. We'll talk about and and so yeah, that

502
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure, but that's that's how that was

503
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: interpreted his hesitation. He also noted Shoe had a working

504
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: cell phone in his car, and then he could have

505
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: called if he'd been tortured and if he was being chased.

506
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: And then lastly he noted that there was light, a

507
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: cane and shoes bloodstream, which, as we said, it's an anesthetic.

508
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: And why would somebody was torturing him, Why would they

509
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 1: give him light a cane to lesson? Why would they

510
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: give somebody a painkiller if they want to torture him.

511
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: So they concluded that his injuries had been self inflicted. Yeah,

512
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: so why would somebody do this? I mean, it's kind

513
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: of in the same way to kill yourself. Why would

514
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: you cut up here? It's extreme, there's there's a lot

515
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: involved in all this self mutilation, and then you hut yourself.

516
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: Why And well, the thinking was that maybe she wanted

517
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: to make his suicide look like a murder and like

518
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: he was abducted and tortured, managed to escape and then

519
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: died fleeing in his car. And then well, why would

520
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: he want to do that? Well, because his ex wife,

521
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: Nancy had a life insurance Paul to see on him

522
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: for a million bucks. So maybe staging a suicide to

523
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: look like a homicide would keep her from collecting on

524
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: the policy. And it did cause Nancy a few headaches,

525
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: by the way, although in the end she did collect

526
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: on the policy. The policy didn't have that suicide writer

527
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: that we talked about all the time. No, actually, apparently

528
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: a lot of them don't. It's just I think they're

529
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: there's some sort of adelia where there's a waiting period,

530
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: like like you can't buy an insurance policy and kill

531
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: yourself a month later. Yeah, yeah, so it's like, I

532
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: don't know, six months or a year waiting period. Okay.

533
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: The silly thing about this is of course that Nancy's

534
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: not the only one that has an insurance policy on him.

535
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: That's true. So yeah, I mean this this is a

536
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: little wonky, but let's keep going. You know, we got

537
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: we got more ground to cover with a little bit.

538
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: Uh So that was the coroner's reasoning, and the and

539
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: the ruling was officially suicide. Obviously, the suicide ruling didn't

540
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: set to out of Phil's widow, Tracy and and all

541
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: their friends. For one thing, they didn't think he was suicidal. Also,

542
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: Tracy pointed out that he would receive several threatening letters

543
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: since the late nineteen nineties, and and letters that basically

544
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: said your access plotting to kill you for the life insurance.

545
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: And so you know, obviously that looked to her like

546
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: evidence that at least that somebody was looking to kill him.

547
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: I mean, a million dollars is a lot of money,

548
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm planning

549
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: to kill you guys for your million dollar policies, but

550
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: I'm just very good at forging. Yeah. Well, I'm glad

551
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: we've got that recorded on the records. Oh you know what,

552
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: it's not turned on nah. Oh see. There was another

553
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 1: another weird incident that happened in June, somebody stole Philip

554
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: shoes laptop. He was actually working at his master's thesis

555
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: and at the university library. I want to I want

556
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. When it came back, his

557
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: laptop had been stolen, but the thief gave it back

558
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: to him. Several weeks later. He left it sitting on

559
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: the hood of his car in burning It was parked

560
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: in Burnie and they came back and there's this there's

561
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: this laptop and had a threatening note on that said

562
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: not to report it to the police because if he

563
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: did that quote others will die unquote. So he didn't

564
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: report to the police. Oh yeah, and by the way,

565
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: the hard drive on the computer had been wiped. Was

566
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: it his personal Yeah, laptop, not one that he might

567
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: have used for work that would have had files on personally.

568
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: He didn't have to report it to the Air Force.

569
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: I have a question about this note. Yeah. Was it

570
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: a physical note or was it a note on the computer?

571
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: I do not know that because if it's a note

572
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: on the computer, that makes no sense. A lot some

573
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: places have made it out as if it was a

574
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: note left written in a file in the computer. But

575
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: it's hardened, you know, what I'm saying, like, my understanding

576
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: is that it was a physical note. And and but

577
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: the reason you're probably thinking that is because they only

578
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 1: found out about this after he died, because he had

579
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: written some sort of an entry on it in his

580
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 1: journal or whatever on his computer diary exactly. So he

581
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: he actually he actually wrote something on and there was

582
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: in some sort of file and his computer he wrote

583
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: about this. It was stolen the important he reported it

584
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: to the university police. It came back with this note.

585
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: He didn't report it to the police, which is strange

586
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: when you think about it, because, I mean, this is

587
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: evidence that somebody has kind of stocking him, don't you think.

588
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean, if the guy stole his computer, wiped the

589
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: hard drive, why would somebody do that? And somebody knew

590
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: where he was, where his car was parked, and left

591
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: us sitting on his on his hood. So that's evidence

592
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: to me that's some some creeper is following me and

593
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: knows more about me than he probably should. But also, yeah,

594
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, but also it means that that

595
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: creeper probably is following you. And if you believe it's

596
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: a credible threat, that they are willing to hurt people

597
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: that are important to you, don't They will literally know

598
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: if you go to the police. Maybe I would probably

599
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: find some sneaky way to get to to find to

600
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: get into contact with the police. And I think it

601
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: can be done if you created SMS text message yeah probably. Yeah.

602
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: You can't text the police now, yeah, most not all.

603
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: Lots of police stations. Yeah, we just talked about municipalities

604
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: and their different levels of technological contradict I know the

605
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: Portlands Police you can actually text and if you're a criminal,

606
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: by the way, you can also text sel piece of

607
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: yourself committing crimes police, so feel free to do that.

608
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: It's perfect. That never happened. I mean, I love it

609
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: when there's some story about some guy like takes a

610
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: picture of himself and his homely stealing something and post

611
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: on Facebook. Yeah look at me, dog. Did you see

612
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: the one recently where a guy a kid was like, um,

613
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: they issued a warrant for his arrest or something, and

614
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: he said, oh, if this post gets a thousand likes,

615
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: I'll turn myself in And it got like a way

616
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: more than that, so many so we showed up at

617
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,239
Speaker 1: the police station with donuts and was like, all right,

618
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: here I am. Then I turned myself in here. Well, anyway,

619
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: you gotta get the guy credit. He was a man

620
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: of his word and donuts yeah and dout. Yeah. That's

621
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: that's yeah. Well back to our story though, Tracy Shoe

622
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: after this verdict wanted she wanted a big crusade, and

623
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: there was that forty eight hours episode that I talked

624
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: about was a big part of it was about her

625
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: big crusade to vindicate her husband. Clear his name. And

626
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: Tracy is the widow, Nancy is the X y X.

627
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: You know, they're all like super like whitebread names. Yeah,

628
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah. Anyway, she goes on a crusade.

629
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: As I said, she sued Nancy the ex also sued

630
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: the usa A, the insurance company, the life insurance company.

631
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: She lost the lawsuit, but the presiding judge, as I

632
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, did officially offer his opinion that Phil's death

633
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: was a homicide and not a suicide. But she still

634
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: got paid out the bush. Nancy got the box and

635
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: also Tracy, yes, she actually she got She got more

636
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: money than any but she had a much bigger life

637
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: insurance policy. I think hers was like one eight million.

638
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, pretty pretty decentle to pay. I would

639
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: hate to think of what the premiums would be for that.

640
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: I do not know. Of course it was. It was

641
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: to USA. They were in the military, so USA does

642
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: it all of it for the military. Yeah, that's probably

643
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: was much more affordable, which is why it was so inflated.

644
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: Probably so cheap that they just thought, why not bump

645
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: it up to one point eight million? I mean that's

646
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: another two bucks a month? Yeah, I mean really, why not?

647
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: What else? Tracy hired a third party for another autopsy.

648
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: Who was It was a consultant named Cyril Wecht, Cyril

649
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: and maybe Cyril, I don't know. I think it's Cyril.

650
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: Now he's a he's a forensic pathologist. He's kind of

651
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: one of these well known celebrity pathologist types. He's written

652
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: some books, done other high high profile cases including, uh,

653
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: the GfK assassination, Elvis Presley, John By Ramsey and the

654
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: list that it was on and on. Probably seen him

655
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: on TV at some point, And here's a fun little factor.

656
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe don't know. He's the guy who discovered that

657
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: GfK's brain had gone missing. He's also got a blistering

658
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: tongue and he really suffers no fool. Some of the

659
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: things that I've I've read that he's written. She's like,

660
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He's the

661
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: He's a version of all of the things that he

662
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: says about the person. I want you to know, that's

663
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: the nice version of me saying things like that too.

664
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: I know you do, yeah, listeners, you know, yeah, you know. Well,

665
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: anyway back to back to syr or Cyril. So he's in.

666
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: He appears in that forty eight hours episode, and he

667
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: noticed if you odd things about the death the number

668
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: one the latter can and shoes system, he said, was

669
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: not at a level that would make it an effective

670
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: pain killer, which he felt kind of undercut the corners,

671
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: reasoning on that point that you know, it would have

672
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: lessened the pain enough to make the torture ineffective. Also,

673
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: the LT of cane could not have come from that

674
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: topical treatment that the corner assumed it came from, because

675
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: that treatment also contains prilocane, which was not found in

676
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: shoes blood. Therefore, the light of cane had to have

677
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: come from somewhere else. Interesting, But what I found no

678
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: injection point for the drug. He noted also that no

679
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: needle or hypodermic was found an on shoe or in

680
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: the car. No bottle of Lyda cane was found there,

681
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: No cutting instrument capable of excizing those nipples was found

682
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: or making that cut in his chest, because there were

683
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: there were. I mean, maybe the straight razor could have

684
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: done it, but no blood was found on the straight razors.

685
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: I was going to actually say, is that he did

686
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: admit when we're talking about there's no injection points, he

687
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: did admit that there was actually three prime locations that

688
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: could have been ejected and then masked by the later mutilation,

689
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: which is the left nipple, the right nipple, and the

690
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: strip of skin down his his chest. Absolutely, so it

691
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: could have been injected there and then you know the

692
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: actual excision. And absolutely absolutely, And since that's that's kind

693
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: of where the cutting happened, it wouldn't be surprising at

694
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: all if that's where the injections took place. Yeah, you

695
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: go to the dentists and they inject the side of

696
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: your mouth that they're working on, not the other side.

697
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: For a reason, it's exactly local. Okay, I just know, yeah, yeah,

698
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: And so I don't know what happens if you injected

699
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 1: in your blood stream. If you go numb all over,

700
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: what the hell happens. I've never seen just your blood

701
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: stream goes numb. That would be funny. Yeah, yeah, that's funny.

702
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: Your little red blood cells don't know what to do. Yeah, okay.

703
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: But so they didn't find anything that could have caused

704
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: the injuries. They did not find Yeah, they found it.

705
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: At least one of the knives was like a Swiss

706
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: army knife, which they determined was not remotely sharp enough

707
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: to have done even brand new from the factory. Swiss

708
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: Army knives aren't sharp enough to cut anything. I've got

709
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: a couple of those things. I like them just fine,

710
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: but they've they've always been kind of dull. I've never

711
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: been able to get a good edge on one of those.

712
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: They tell the worst stories. That's why they're so dull. Yeah,

713
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm not boring, but they're so reliable and they make

714
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: good watches. But here's a really key point also that

715
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: Wexed made, which is at the duct tape that was

716
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: on shoes, wrists, and ankles did not have his fingerprints

717
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: on him, which he said you would expect if he

718
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: had taped himself up, if he was faking his abduction, right,

719
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: and no gloves were found in the car except for

720
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: that one that was unused, But no gloves were found

721
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: and uh, and so that lack of fingerprints is an

722
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: important point for a lot of people who do think

723
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: that Shoe died as a result of foul play. It was,

724
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: it was. It was very suspicious enough to the Dr

725
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 1: Wecht that he thought he'd mentioned it, you know, of course,

726
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, one glove was found, right, Okay. Also

727
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: the local sheriff, he was interviewed on forty eight hours

728
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: he was also he had some misgivings about the whole thing. Um.

729
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: He said, it was not not investigated the way it

730
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: should have been. He said. The state police just came in,

731
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: took over the accident scene and refused to treat it

732
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: as a crime scene. They they really never even considered

733
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: the possibility of foul play, he said, And so some

734
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,479
Speaker 1: key evidence might have been lost they just according to him. Yeah,

735
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: and then the Air Force started an investigation which produced

736
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: what it was what was called a psychological autopsy of

737
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 1: Philip Shoe. These are always weirdly interesting, Yeah, yeah, they are. Yeah,

738
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: they're kind of like the Myers Briggs tests. But like

739
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: even more like level. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's

740
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: that sort of thing where you're like, I don't need

741
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: to know about myself, and then you start reading and

742
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: you're like five pages and all of a sudden you're like,

743
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is so true. How is this

744
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: so true? So true? It's so scary. I'm a serial killer.

745
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: But this this report was actually pretty comprehensive. It's long.

746
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: I've read it and Steve, you read it, right? Yeah?

747
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: Did you read it? Devon? Some of it? Okay, it

748
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: was easy to skim through. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. The

749
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: chalk full of good facts. If you're researching this case. Wow,

750
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: it's a lot of a lot of good stuff in there.

751
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 1: It was released in May two thousand five, two years

752
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: after he died, and it drew by the testimony of

753
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people, including his doctor, a psychiatrists, family

754
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: and friends, the autopsy reports, etcetera. And the conclusion of

755
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: that psychological autopsy was suicide. Surprised their investigation would come

756
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: up with the same thing that they said it was.

757
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but there's still but still, the

758
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding his death work on a sketchy There is

759
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: at least one person who had a really good motive

760
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: to murder him, and who, by the way, he took

761
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: the fifth when she was interrogated about his death. And

762
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: of course there were the threatening notes, the weird incident

763
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 1: with the laptop um and he himself had expressed some

764
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 1: some really big fears about his life, like, for example,

765
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: he told the psychiatrist that he had started taking all

766
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: he had started altering his route that he was taken

767
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 1: to and from work daily exactly as you will. Yeah,

768
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: I'll take that as you will. Yeah. He also said

769
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: he'd gotten a PO box because excuse me, a post

770
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: office box because he didn't want to use his mailbox

771
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: at home because he was afraid somebody might booby trap it.

772
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: And so he started to use a little paranoid maybe

773
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: a little bit, or maybe he really has something to

774
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: be worried about, yea. So maybe it wasn't murdered paranoia.

775
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: Whether it's correct or not, it's still paranoia. Actually, there's

776
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: nothing negative about being paranoid, if you're right. I think

777
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not after me. Absolutely,

778
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: and so maybe somebody was anyway, but suspicions about it,

779
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 1: it's continues to be talked about to this day and

780
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: people and it's not just on Reddit. Yeah, yeah, I

781
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: see some articles in some major media outlets besides forty

782
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: eight hours talking about this very one and a lot

783
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: of people are still convinced that he was murdered. That's

784
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: our question for today. It's an interesting question. Yeah, but

785
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: before we answer that question, let's take a break. The

786
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: tie clip is the most versatile of accessories. Unlike it's

787
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: slowly cousin the binder clip. Not only can it prevent

788
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: one's tie from blowing around in the wind, but it

789
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: also keeps it out of the puddles of blood when

790
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: kneeling over corpses. When times get tough, it can be

791
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: used to close your nasal passages, blocking out the smells

792
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: of the docks. During a stakeout, and in moments of desperation.

793
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: It works as a small and unassuming weapon during hand

794
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: to hand combat. Why am I telling you this, Well,

795
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: because you're about to undertake some real detective work. Try

796
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: your hand with dispatch and interactive mystery story that really delivers.

797
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: Each month you'll receive a box of clues to decipher.

798
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: And I've got to say these snippets are more richly

799
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: detailed than a plain old case file. It'll keep you

800
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: busy for days. There's news clippings, journal entries, secret websites.

801
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: It's totally immersive, and as the story develops a month

802
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: over month, you'll be able to take part unraveling clues

803
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804
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806
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,000
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807
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808
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809
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: Dispatch dot com slash sideways. That's off with the code

810
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: sideways at breakout Dispatch dot com slash sideways, and we're

811
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: back Murder Aside. You'll be the judge Murder, Murder, murder,

812
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: all right? So what are the theories that are out there?

813
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: There are several first and everybody's favorite, it seems like

814
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: for this one is murderer. Well it's I mean those

815
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: are kind of like kind of kind of suspicious. Agree,

816
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: yeah a little bit. I want you guys to know

817
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: that if I show up like this, please treat it

818
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: like a murderer. Okay, okay, now we planned to. We're

819
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: going to investigate anything that happens to we promise, great,

820
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, she's been planting clues like this for weeks. Yeah,

821
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: I really want to know what the hell she's got up. Well,

822
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: I decided that's what. That's why every day I go

823
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: to my A t M and take out like twenty bucks,

824
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: but do it like twenty times because I think it's well,

825
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: this is the day that I disappear. You know, you

826
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: want to you want to those a TM It took

827
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: out like you know, yeah, four dollars, but it didn't

828
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: twenty buck intments and nobody knows why. Yeah we know why. Yeah,

829
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: now crazy damn. Okay, so murder So somebody the series

830
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: goes somebody abducted Colonel Shoe, tortured him and probably intended

831
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 1: to murder him, but he managed to free himself somehow

832
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: and get away, jumped his car, sped north on Highway ten,

833
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: maybe thinking that he was being followed, which is not

834
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: an outrageous thing to think. Yeah, hard to say what

835
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: his intentions were other than to get away as fast

836
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: as possible. Of his mind was perhaps a bit clatter

837
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: from pain, maybe blood loss, maybe the ladder cane, that's

838
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: hard to say. Maybe the benadrul apparently he had a

839
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: lot in his system. Yeah, I mean that would also

840
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: kind of support this whole murder theory, if like he'd

841
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: gotten dosed with a bunch of benadryl to to make

842
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: him more pliable, or maybe just O d M and

843
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know take Yeah, well, apparently he'd

844
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: taken a bunch, but but you know, so he might

845
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: have been a little bit out of it, but he

846
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: did manage to keep the car in a control. Uh tell,

847
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: he actually the freeway and hit those trees at least.

848
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: And so this would make it homicide in the sense

849
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: that he would not have been in that situation if

850
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: not for the actions of these other people who obviously

851
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: did not intend him. You know. Well, but the question

852
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: is is who were those other people? Well, there are

853
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: two main suspects out there. The butler, yeah, Mrs White.

854
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: The colonel. Wait wait, he's the colonel now the lead

855
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: pipe with the colonel. Okay, Um, so our first suspect

856
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: would be Philip Shoe's ex wife, Nancy Shoe a k a.

857
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: Nancy Timpson because she remarried to a guy named Don Timpson,

858
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: and she did have a good motive to kill him,

859
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 1: which is why so many people thought that Nancy had

860
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: done it, or maybe and still think that she did it. Uh.

861
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: You know, there was that life insurance policy, and I

862
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: don't know how she felt about him, and there was

863
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: a divorce, of course, I don't think it was a

864
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: totally amicable one, so maybe there was, maybe there was

865
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: another motive there. Just bit I really got the feeling

866
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: that they were your typical divorces with a kid stuck

867
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: in the middle. You know, they did not seem to

868
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: get along. Yeah, but it's you know, it doesn't necessarily

869
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: mean that she wanted to kill him. I know lots

870
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: of people who were divorced and don't want to murder anybody.

871
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: But and of course, the the insurance policy, of course,

872
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: does not prove that she killed him or hired somebody

873
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: to kill him. You know, lots of us have motives

874
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: to kill people. Doesn't mean we actually do it or

875
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: make us guilty of that yet, Yeah, not so far. Yeah,

876
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: but there're although there are those letters, and the only

877
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: one I've actually seen is a is a typewritten one

878
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: which says, and here I'm paraphrasing, I overheard your ex

879
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: wife Nancy and her husband Don talking and they were

880
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: saying that they wanted you dead for your insurance money.

881
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 1: F Y, I be careful, signed upper end that that

882
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: letter is really poorly written. Yeah. It was obviously either

883
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: written on a true typewriter or some kind of word

884
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: processor that did not have spell check, because there was

885
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: some pretty egregious errors in there. Yeah, it was probably typewritten,

886
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: because let's let's not forget he worked for the military.

887
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: You know, you probably in two thousands, so you probably

888
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't have found too many typewriters in civilian life. But

889
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: I bet the military still had him. I was going

890
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: to say, like a library, yeah, you know, because like

891
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, he was at a library when the computer

892
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: was turned to him, right, a campus library. Uh, well,

893
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: that when it was taken from him. Yeah. I'm not

894
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: saying that he that he typed that either. I mean

895
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: it said somebody sent him this letter that was typewritten.

896
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: I just would think. And by the way, and by

897
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: the way, his I think his x or her husband

898
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: were actually in the military, but station in Florida because

899
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: the Florida Yeah, and so right about the time that

900
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: he received this letter, I think that made him think

901
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: about this whole insurance things. So he asked Nancy to

902
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: cancel the insurance policy. She wouldn't. Uh. He wanted the

903
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: insurance company USA and asked them to cancel it, and

904
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: they refused. He even presented the notes and everything, said, Hey,

905
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: I've been getting these these these nasty letters and stuff

906
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: that are kind of scaring me and I don't want

907
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: to have I don't want her having a motive to

908
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: kill me. And they just said, dude, there's nothing we

909
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: can said. You got these notes, but so what they

910
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: don't prove a thing. She owns the policies, you know,

911
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: it's up to her to keep him or get rid

912
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: of them and not. And so that was that. As

913
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: far as the letters, I don't know if any of

914
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: the envelopes they came in were kept or tossed out.

915
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: I'd never seen the evidence that they were kept. Uh. Yeah,

916
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: and pretty much all when we were a similar nature.

917
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: I think there were four of them at all, but

918
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: he kept the letters. But he kept the letters, and

919
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe you kept at least four of the letters. Yeah,

920
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: that's gotten more that we don't know, I asked, true,

921
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 1: I only know about the four. Yeah, I would maybe

922
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 1: toss the first one. That's entirely possible. You would yeah, okay, sure,

923
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: and then you get another one you're like oh, and

924
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: you get like four more and you're like oh, except

925
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: it was over the course of years that they arrived. Yeah,

926
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: but I would still I mean, you know, the second one,

927
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: would maybe think okay more Yeah, yeah, I would probably

928
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: start a file. I'll keep him there. Yeah. But so

929
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: she continued to try to get the policy canceled, but

930
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: he was never successful in that. But it was kind

931
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: of not it was a micro crusade or something. I mean,

932
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: there wasn't like it was an obsession exactly, but he

933
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: was sort of working on it. Uh. And then when

934
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 1: Nancy was interrogated about about Philip's death, she pleaded the fifth.

935
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: If you watch that forty eight Hours episode, you'll see

936
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: her on video doing it. Two of the questions were, quote,

937
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: were you responsible for Philip shoes death? Unquote? She took

938
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: the fifth. Next question, quote did you discuss with your

939
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: husband Don Timpson murdering Philip Shoe for insurance money? Unquote?

940
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: She took the fifth. Forty eight Hours she took the

941
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: fifth twenty times. We have seen more than one occasion

942
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: where somebody has done that because their lawyers said, you

943
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: say anything, they're gonna have a field day and they're

944
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: gonna try and incriminate you. So don't give them a

945
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: single thing. One of our one of our mods talks

946
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: about this and something related where, um, we talk a

947
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: lot about how suspicious it is, that's so and so

948
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: got a lawyer right in a case if you were,

949
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 1: if you weren't guilty, you wouldn't get a lawyer. But

950
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 1: one of the Facebook moths talks about this a lot

951
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: where they're like, if anybody within like a twenty mile

952
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: radius of me gets murdered, and I, like even have

953
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: a passing knowledge of this human, like I'm probably going

954
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: to just contact my lawyer and be like, hey, heads up,

955
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 1: this is how I knew this human just in case,

956
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,479
Speaker 1: you know, like you technically like lawyering up. You're yeah,

957
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: I think, but also I do think it's suspicious. Oh

958
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: yeah it is, it doesn't fifth, instead of saying no,

959
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: well yeah, that's the thing is that if she wasn't involved,

960
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: why not just answer honestly saying I don't know anything

961
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: about this, but I also don't know what her lawyer

962
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: was thinking. And of course, truthfully, I mean some of

963
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: those ques like like did you discuss with your husband

964
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: murdering him for insurance money? I mean they might discuss that,

965
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: probably not seriously. At some point you get drunk one

966
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: night and you're sitting and you're saying, God, you know,

967
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: short on money, and and Phil has got this million

968
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: dollar insurance We should kill him, you know, honest? Right,

969
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: even we we have on recording me saying ha ha,

970
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to murder you guys for hear insurance money.

971
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: You don't. I don't even have insurance policies on you.

972
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: And yet if someone were like, uh, you know, twenty

973
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: years down the road, if I did have insurance policies

974
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: on you, and someone were like, have you ever done that?

975
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: I would have to say, uh, probably I would have

976
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: to say the fifth, right, because you don't want to say, like, yes,

977
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: twenty years before I ever had an insurance policy on them.

978
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: I joked on a podcast once, right, I mean what

979
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: happens on the podcast is real, it's recorded history. I

980
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: don't know what you mean this is. I mean, this

981
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: is what we're doing. We're recording our history until the

982
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: Internet goes away. This is not going to be too

983
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: long from now. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I understand

984
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: pleading the fifth to that, but I don't totally understand

985
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: pleading the fifth. Two were you responsible for his death? Well? Yeah,

986
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I mean, so it doesn't make

987
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: sense to me. It's not so much that saying, wow,

988
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: I think she's guilty that I'm just saying it doesn't

989
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: quite make sense. But again, if her lawyer just told her, hey,

990
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: here's what you say. Nothing, just say the fifth and

991
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: so okay and all. And also Nancy I was asked

992
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 1: if she would take a polygraph test and she wouldn't

993
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 1: do that. Either, She's guilty, are useless? Yeah, I mean,

994
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: but still you know it. But you can see why

995
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: Nancy is is a lot of people's favorite suspect. You

996
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: can see that. Um. But as far as I know,

997
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: as I said, I think, as far as I know,

998
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: Nancy and her husband Don were in Florida when Philip

999
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: Shoe died. Of course, that doesn't mean they didn't hire

1000
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: somebody to bump him off. But as far as I know,

1001
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that she actually had anything to do

1002
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: with Colonel shoes death doesn't mean she didn't do it,

1003
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: and like I said, a lot of people think she did.

1004
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: But let's put her on hold for a minute when

1005
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 1: we talk about another suspect. Please, okay, click do do

1006
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: do do. I'll back to your regular scheduled program. All right,

1007
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: here we are. So our next suspect is Tracy Shoe, Yes,

1008
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: the the breaved widow. Uh. As one commenter noted, if

1009
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: Nancy had a million reasons to murder Philip Shoe, Tracy

1010
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: actually had twice as many and one point eight ties

1011
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: as many. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, And actually, well,

1012
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: in some ways Tracy would be a better candidate. Never

1013
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 1: once she wasn't in Florida. She was, she wasn't burning. Uh.

1014
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: The timeline for She's death, when you think about it,

1015
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: doesn't quite add up. I mean, so it leaves the

1016
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: house about five thirty, next spot at eight fourteen, So

1017
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: it's two hours and forty four minutes in which to

1018
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: do the following things. You've got to intercept Philip Shoe

1019
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: in his car, get him out of it, taken to

1020
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: a nice private place where he could be taped to

1021
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: a chair, tortured for a while. And I've seen all

1022
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 1: those things, cutting off his finger, his ear, the slit

1023
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 1: in the chest, the nipples, all of a sudden. It

1024
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: probably took a little while because when you torture people,

1025
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: you don't just like bing bing bing bing bang. You

1026
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: want to stop and talk like in the movies and

1027
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: drag it out, and they experience if you do it fast,

1028
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: then it's all the pain at once, which is not

1029
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: the point. Yeah, it's little bits at a time. Yeah.

1030
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: So they got through this whole torture session session. Uh.

1031
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: And then at some point, of course, they take a

1032
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: break and leave him alone long in our frame to

1033
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: free himself from Yeah, they did something breakfast. Yeah. Yeah,

1034
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 1: it's like it's like these people who never saw a movie, right, yeah, right,

1035
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: so where they really saw a movie? Yeah, And it's

1036
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: so somehow he escapes. So added a few minutes at

1037
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: least for shoot to get from wherever he was in

1038
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: captivity to where he was spotted on Highway ten. Uh.

1039
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: That's a lot of stuff to get done in a

1040
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: few hours, as you know, especially the part about leaving

1041
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: him alone long enough to escape, because remember when you

1042
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: leave the guy alone long est to escape, he's got

1043
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: a struggle for a little bit, there's no little drama there, okay,

1044
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 1: And so that's a problem for me with the whole

1045
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: Nancy did it scenario, but at least for me. But

1046
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: at the same time, you gotta also remember that he

1047
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: left his house a lot earlier than usual, like an

1048
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: hour earlier, which would you think would have screwed up

1049
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: the kidnappers plans if they know he always leaves a

1050
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: house at six thirty am for the office, they wouldn't

1051
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: they theoretically probably would have shown up a little bit

1052
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: before he's supposed to leave, but not earlier. Yeah. But

1053
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: but when you think about it, if Tracy had done

1054
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 1: the deed, she wouldn't have been constrained by time, since

1055
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: she could have lied about when he actually left the house.

1056
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: And by the way, she would have known that he

1057
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: was leaving an hour early. Uh. And of course, by

1058
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: the way, I mean, she could have just for that

1059
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: matter of correformed him in his sleep or Bena drilled him,

1060
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 1: or Benna drilled him, or tied him up or duct

1061
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: taped him or something. So the hired guys that you know,

1062
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: the hitman that you've hired, they come and get him.

1063
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: They take him away for a little torture and murder session, right, uh,

1064
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: and so it wouldn't have been necessary in that case

1065
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: to intercept him in his car somehow. Remember it changes

1066
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: the timeline from two hours and forty four minutes too. Yeah, yeah,

1067
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: actually she would have had any time between between you know,

1068
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: late the night before and fourteen the next day. This

1069
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,439
Speaker 1: also makes it not necessary to intercept him in his car, which,

1070
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: by the way, it's not as easy as you think,

1071
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: because remember he was altering his route to work every day,

1072
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: and so you got not just intercept him, but remember

1073
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: he's a little paranoid, so coaxing him out of his car,

1074
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, would be kind of difficult, But that's again

1075
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: not necessary if Tracy is involved. Right, So that makes

1076
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,439
Speaker 1: in a in a sense that makes Tracy a better

1077
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: suspect and also adds um you that one of the

1078
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 1: things we're not like really talking about so much is

1079
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: that you have to intercept his car and then have

1080
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: his car go to the location that he then escapes

1081
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,240
Speaker 1: from where. So, like, if Tracy did it, it's totally

1082
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: plausible that her DNA and fingerprints and all that stuff

1083
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: are found all over his car. Should they do a

1084
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: forensic investigation of his car because that's his wife, right,

1085
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: So if she's involved, she puts him in the car,

1086
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: drives him someplace, drives him out, and then he escapes

1087
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh what my cars here cool and

1088
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: escapes in that. And then you know, if they were

1089
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: to do a some sort of autopsy or whatever on

1090
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: the car, yeah, you know, she'd be like, that's my

1091
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: husband's car. Of course, my DNA is everywhere, drive it

1092
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah. I could totally see a scenario

1093
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: where the guys don't even come to get him at

1094
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: the house and she's like you said, she just puts

1095
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: him in the in the past, in your seat, and

1096
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: drives him to the torture spot. Right. Well, so here's

1097
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: a you know, he was driving a little four door Sedan,

1098
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: so it was I mean it was yeah, it's such

1099
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: a smaller cars, just a fairly cheap economy kind of car,

1100
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,280
Speaker 1: but it's a four door. But it would be possible

1101
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 1: if it was Tracy and Philip and an accomplice, they

1102
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: all three could have ridden in the same car to

1103
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: the torture location. She could have also just been she

1104
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: brings him. I mean, so I one of those things,

1105
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: right that you know, is going to put me on

1106
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: the list or something. Is I googled how much benetual

1107
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: lethal dose? Yeah, how much? Um? And it's uh, I

1108
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: think it's ten point one billigram to I don't know.

1109
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,479
Speaker 1: There's some like big formula, but basically what it says

1110
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: is that like, if you weigh a hundred and sixty

1111
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: five pounds, seven hundred and fifty seven milligrams have benadro

1112
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: will kill you. Um, So you know it's actually I

1113
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: mean it's a lot, but um, each pill is about

1114
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: twenty five milligrams. So if we can even assume like

1115
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: eight hundred milligrams just for like round, it's only thirty

1116
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: two capsules, which is like it's a lot for you

1117
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: to take willingly, but like, h well, you know, actually

1118
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: think that much. And he could have been you know,

1119
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: if if she had dosed him, he would have been

1120
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: like sleepy, and she would have been like, okay, Phil,

1121
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: let's go in the well. He gets up, he's taking

1122
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: a shower. She goes, She goes and makes him smoothie

1123
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: and ups a bottle of pills in there. You know. Yeah,

1124
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, here's just smoothie here. I always make

1125
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: my own smoothies Oh yeah, I'm letting anybody else make

1126
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: those things for it anyway. Sorry, there was a bit

1127
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: of a derail on that, but it's fine. Um, there

1128
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: is there's once one website out there, military corruption dot Com.

1129
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, well they were in there earlier. They've done

1130
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: they've actually done a lot of material about this case,

1131
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: and they're they're totally totally on the side of the

1132
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: murder theory as well as again a lot of other

1133
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: people are too. And seriously, I was I would say

1134
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,919
Speaker 1: that the murder theory is the prevalent theory out there,

1135
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: would you not? I mean you guys. You guys have

1136
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: done their research on this. Yeah, I'd say it's it's

1137
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: the big theory. In their earlier rights, they totally took

1138
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: Tracy's side in this story. But then there's something they

1139
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: had a change of heart and decided that Tracy was

1140
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: probably the killer after all and not Nancy. Um. And

1141
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: I won't lead you to all their reasoning, but they

1142
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: are totally convinced that Tracy is the perp in this case.

1143
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: And for one thing, they do have some evidence that

1144
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: Tracy and Philips marriage was not as idyllic as Tracy

1145
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: has made it up. To be well, that's not uncommon

1146
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: in these kind of situations though. Yeah, well Tracy made

1147
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: it out to be like, oh, you know, he was

1148
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: my soul made and but of course the guy is dead.

1149
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 1: And how many times have we read similar things. It

1150
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: doesn't mean spouses of someone who had died. It's very consistent.

1151
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 1: Behave you don't say, you don't say bad things, and

1152
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: you don't say it was such a flaming a whole

1153
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna miss him, because that's that's just

1154
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: not what you say. Yeah, but here's something else I

1155
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: will say, is that just because someone is your soul

1156
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: mate doesn't mean that you're there soul mate, right. I mean,

1157
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: like it's possible that she was totally telling the truth

1158
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: and saying like he was my soul mate, and what

1159
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: she's really saying there is and he was trying to

1160
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: leave me, and that happen. I can't have nobody will

1161
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: I mean, well, where were we? No? No, I didn't

1162
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: mean that at all. Uh, but so it wasn't as idyllic,

1163
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that there's I know a lot

1164
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: of people are in so so marriages. Let's Steve, you

1165
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: just kidding and and Deva. Not yet, but I'm looking

1166
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: forward to it. And here's the thing is that she

1167
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: made such a ruckus over this that behavior doesn't match up. Well, yeah,

1168
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: I know, it would be a little strange, don't you think,

1169
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: because he made a huge buss he went to court

1170
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: and she got she got CBS News, got them the

1171
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: interviewer to make a big special about it. And you'd

1172
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: think if she had a hand in the killing, she

1173
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: would have just kept her mouth shut, because you know,

1174
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: if she had actually done the due it was like sweet,

1175
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: they declared suicide, they issued to report she could collecting,

1176
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: and then just walked away. But yeah, so that's why

1177
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: I don't buy Tracy as to kill her. I also

1178
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: I agree with that, I mean, like overall, but I

1179
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: just want to go ahead and add to this that

1180
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: like we don't know it was necessarily going behind the scenes,

1181
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes of this where like you

1182
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: don't know what her friends were saying to her, right,

1183
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: you don't know what people were pushing her to do,

1184
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,439
Speaker 1: and she might have felt obligated to do if she were.

1185
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: I mean, again, are you are you equating to to

1186
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: this the same situation as it was that movie Gone Girl?

1187
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: Did you guys see that with who Benn? And I'm

1188
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: not gonna screw it. It's been long enough, it doesn't matter.

1189
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: The spoiler alert, Um, he hates his wife and he

1190
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: wants to leave her, and then she quote unquote disappears,

1191
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: and then when she comes back, he's figured out that

1192
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: she staged the entire thing, but he is now forced

1193
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: to stay with her because he's, you know, all of

1194
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: the social pressure. That's not what I'm saying. I'm more

1195
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: saying that, like, you know, you could she could have

1196
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: had the group of friends that are like, it's super

1197
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,959
Speaker 1: left up what Nancy is doing, Like obviously Nancy had

1198
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: him killed. Why aren't you more upset about this? And

1199
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: she was like craving out looks suspicious that I'm not.

1200
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: She might have actually, she might have actually felt safe

1201
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: about that. You know. It's like, you know, well they didn't.

1202
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they didn't collect evidence from the car

1203
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: or anything, right, So well, yeah, some I mean, I

1204
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think they just like pulled his

1205
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: body out and towed it away. I mean, but by

1206
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: the time that she seemed to be raising the rockets,

1207
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: she kind of knew what evidence was out there probably

1208
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: so she could have known like, oh, yeah, there's nothing

1209
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: to it. The only yeah, the only thing she had

1210
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 1: to worry about was if one of her, one of

1211
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: her accomplices talked, that would be that would be the

1212
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 1: major worry there. And of course she probably had already

1213
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: bumped them off right there and there in a shallow

1214
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: graves somewhere out in the desert. She could have had

1215
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: no accomplice. That was well, it could it could be

1216
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: as she did it all herself. Yeah, that's a good point.

1217
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: But but also as far as the whole just murder

1218
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: in general, I've got some issues with it. For one thing,

1219
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: there were no defensive wo wounds on his arms or

1220
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: his body, like, for example, sometime when he was captured

1221
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 1: or escaped. You know there should have been a struggle.

1222
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: Maybe not, I mean if he was drugged for example,

1223
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: but still you would think there'd be some sort of

1224
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: signs of a struggle from what he was captured. You'd

1225
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: see signs around them, like the tape on his wrist,

1226
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't you like extra bruising and stuff or

1227
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: stretch the material stretches stretched itself. Yeah, it does stretch. Yeah,

1228
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 1: And the yeah, from the photographs. It does not look

1229
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: like it's been strained at all. Really, although you know,

1230
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: one thing that I kept thinking about for this, for

1231
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: the murder scenario is the autopsy talks about the hesitation marks,

1232
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 1: and I kept thinking about the fact that if his

1233
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: shirt had been cut open, his undershirt, it could have

1234
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: been from somebody trying to to reach over and get

1235
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: him with the knife and and screwing with him and

1236
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: then eventually cutting it open and making the the excision

1237
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: where and of course then it just happens to line up.

1238
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's weird, there's several of these in

1239
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: a row, when in fact it's our sadistic murdering fiend

1240
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: torturing him even more. And it's misinterpreted. Could have been

1241
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: that could have been acul im like, hey, how about

1242
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 1: it cut you right here? It's just a little more yea, yeah, yeah,

1243
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: I I know. Uh. You know what else we talked

1244
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: about it Besides you you noticed the duct tape had

1245
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 1: not been strained nout. But you can also see this

1246
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: in and we talked about this already. It wasn't the

1247
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: way it was wound around his wrists and ankles. They

1248
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: were individually wrapped and everything again individually wrapped exactly, but

1249
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 1: not like that. Again, like he'd been maybe maybe strapped

1250
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: to a chair, but not his not his arms and

1251
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: legs strapped together or anything. So that's a little odd.

1252
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 1: The absence of finger prints, this is a real telling

1253
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 1: point for me. The absence on the duct tape of

1254
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: fingerprints from him was noted by Dr Cyril Wecht, famous

1255
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: celebrity pathologists, uh and a lot of others, a teenage

1256
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 1: evidence that he did not stage his abduction and torture

1257
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 1: because you know, his fingerprints not being on there there

1258
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: should have been on there. But in my opinion, this

1259
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: is a misreading of the evidence. Yeah, because to me,

1260
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 1: the absence of fingerprints indicates that he did stage is

1261
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: abduction because if he had been educted an escape and

1262
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 1: his fingerprints should have been on the duct tape, his

1263
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: fingerprints should have been there from the escape from what

1264
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: from when he from when he tore the tape and

1265
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 1: did the tape whatever he did to escape, Right, I

1266
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: was going to say, I can see a situation where

1267
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't if if one arm, let's say, just one

1268
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: arm gets free, I don't care which one it is,

1269
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: and he reached and he can't easy. You know, if

1270
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: if their tape behind his back in some fashion, he

1271
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: would have to get some sort of tool or implement

1272
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. Let's just say there's

1273
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: a big knife sitting there, he reaches behind himself and

1274
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 1: cuts himself free. He would then use that same tool

1275
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: on his ankles. Rather than taking the time to grab

1276
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: the tape with his hands and begin the process of

1277
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 1: slowly tearing it apart. A knife would go through much quicker.

1278
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 1: I can see where there wouldn't be that, like he

1279
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 1: would just you know, cut, cut, cut, run. Yeah. I

1280
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's unlikely though, because I mean

1281
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: I think his captors to know that that's possible. Well yeah,

1282
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: I mean if you got really really stupid people, I mean,

1283
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 1: you know, hey, not only we st dune, we're gonna

1284
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,439
Speaker 1: leave this guy here tied to the chair, We're gonna

1285
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: leave a big old knife next to him. Yeah. That's

1286
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: that's let's go get some job. Yeah, I mean, so

1287
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 1: that's the problem. I don't I don't see any realistic

1288
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: scenario where he does not touch that tape at some point,

1289
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: at least at least a couple of pieces of it.

1290
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: I just don't see it, um, unless he was wearing

1291
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:33,439
Speaker 1: rubber gloves and applied it to himself and it never

1292
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: was taped to some other object as you're saying, yeah,

1293
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, So if he, if he did put

1294
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: it on himself, then it would make sense that he

1295
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: applied to himself using the latex disposable gloves, tossed the

1296
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: gloves at his car window or whatever, and actually left

1297
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 1: him at the scene when he did all these things. Yeah,

1298
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: left at wherever he yeah. Yeah, And the actually using

1299
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: gloves to put it on would have been kind of

1300
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: the obvious thing to do, I guess. H But again,

1301
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: if somebody else had done at those fingerprints should have

1302
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: been on there on the tape and they weren't. Yeah,

1303
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: And so I have imagined, though I guess it depends

1304
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 1: on the kind of glove, not all of them, but

1305
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: it seems like, especially at that time there before there

1306
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: was the whole latex free glove craze. All of those

1307
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: gloves they have latex on both the inside and the outside,

1308
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 1: at least some, and so I would imagine that some

1309
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: of that latex powder. What is it? What is the powder?

1310
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 1: It's not the Yeah, it's that's that that's latex powder,

1311
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: but talcamo, right, but that stuff is all over the

1312
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 1: inside and the outside, and so you would imagine that

1313
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: there would have been some residue of that on the

1314
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 1: actual tape itself, no matter who was wearing the gloves.

1315
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: I well, yeah, but I don't know, I don't know

1316
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 1: that they tested for that. I'm guessing they must not.

1317
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,959
Speaker 1: I mean especially and actually when you when you dust

1318
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: something for prints, it might be hard at that point

1319
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: to you know, tell the fingerprint dust from the dust

1320
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: from the gloves at that point. So yeah, but uh yeah,

1321
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: so yeah, the duct the duct tape is kind of

1322
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: a conundrum there, What else are we going to talk

1323
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: about it? There was also the light of Kane. Remember

1324
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: remember if somebody had wanted to torture on the original

1325
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 1: corners that they wanted to torture, and why would they

1326
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,759
Speaker 1: give him given him anesthesia? Well that's a great point,

1327
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 1: you know, unless, of course, they just wanted to take

1328
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 1: his nipples and his pinky for sale in the black market,

1329
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: right yeah, King. Yeah, but if the intent was the torture,

1330
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: then really, truly the light of King does make no sense.

1331
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 1: But if the wounds were self inflicted, then it does.

1332
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 1: And also speaking of self inflicted, I mean, you guys

1333
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 1: saw the you guys saw the the autopsy report that

1334
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 1: that described the wounds too, and they're different. They're not.

1335
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: And then when you see this on the web, it's

1336
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 1: always described as they were removed with surgical precision. They

1337
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: were removed with some skill, but I wouldn't say surgical precision. Yeah,

1338
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 1: and and and there's a difference between the two of them.

1339
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 1: I mean, the right most one had a nice, even

1340
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,879
Speaker 1: very well to find little little border around it where

1341
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 1: the cut was made. And then the left most one,

1342
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: the border was more irregular and ragging, and it had

1343
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 1: more dishing, and it had more dishing, it was deeper,

1344
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: which indicates to me, like you know, you've got your

1345
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:20,680
Speaker 1: strong hand and the one hand is doing what do

1346
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: we know? Do we know what shoe right or left handed?

1347
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: That I don't know, because I'll be honest with you,

1348
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 1: if I was, if I were to take my own

1349
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 1: nipple off, I'm right handed, then probably my left nipple

1350
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: would have the much cleaner cut nipple. That's that's the

1351
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: thing I can't quite figure out is that if he was,

1352
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 1: because I assumed all the same as you that it

1353
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: was probably was probably left handed, because that I would

1354
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: explain why that the right one was a better cut.

1355
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:51,600
Speaker 1: But then again, he chops the last joint of his

1356
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: of his left pinky off, so you would think he

1357
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 1: would have been if he was left handed, he would

1358
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 1: have chopped off the right one and not the left right. Yeah,

1359
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: that's what you would think, correct, I know, but I

1360
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: don't know. But but but again, unless you had two

1361
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: different surgeons, or maybe the surgeon was like I had

1362
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 1: some time it was kind of in a hurry on

1363
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: the second one or something. Well, okay, so listen. I

1364
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: will also say this that part of my job on

1365
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 1: an irregular basis requires me to cut circular holes out

1366
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: of paper. And on some of those holes I nail

1367
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 1: it and it is almost a perfect circle and you

1368
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 1: can't tell that it wasn't done by some kind of punch.

1369
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 1: And some of them look like I gave a pair

1370
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: of scissors to a two year old to cut that

1371
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: circle out. Because sometimes my aim is just often once

1372
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 1: you start, it's not like you can go back and

1373
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 1: fix it, because it'll you know, you just gotta keep going. Yeah,

1374
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,639
Speaker 1: in the future, there will be undue scissors. Not yet,

1375
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like the regularity actually speaks more

1376
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 1: towards somebody else doing it, because there could have been

1377
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 1: a difference in the amount of struggle that was put up. Well, um,

1378
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: so so he holds still for one that kicks up

1379
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: a fuss with the other one, Well he's gotten maybe

1380
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 1: he's got more drugs in his system for one. Maybe

1381
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 1: he's more more pain and like losing a lot more

1382
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 1: blood for the second one. So he doesn't put us

1383
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 1: much of a fight up. I mean, like there didn't.

1384
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 1: They're just start like there's different circumstances that could be.

1385
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,760
Speaker 1: He wasn't bleeding that much from the nipple removal just

1386
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 1: because it was it was, but we don't know which

1387
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: one happened, Like we don't know what order any of these,

1388
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,080
Speaker 1: but he would not have been losing massive amounts of blood, right,

1389
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 1: but it could have been like right one or left one.

1390
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: First right and it's just like kind of mangled and bloody,

1391
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 1: and then they do the like chest wound and he's like,

1392
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: oh god, and then they moved on to the right one,

1393
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 1: and by that time he's just like this super hurts.

1394
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 1: I can't struggle, he's worn down, he's losing blood. I

1395
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: think that's where I think that's where Joe and I.

1396
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: Joe and I have been figuring that the nipple ectomy

1397
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 1: was done one and then the other, and then at

1398
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 1: some point after that the chess cut. Whereas if they

1399
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 1: literally worked their way from right to left or left

1400
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: or right across his body, that would explain nut But

1401
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, it just says self mutilation

1402
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 1: could be, but also could be. I mean, it's there's

1403
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: no rhyme when you when you combine that again, you know,

1404
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 1: if that was the only thing, but combined with all

1405
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: the other things that you know, and especially the fact

1406
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 1: that lyda cane was used and there were no holes found,

1407
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 1: which means that the injections had to be done at

1408
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 1: where the cuts were done. I don't remember seeing this

1409
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 1: in the autopsy, and I actually don't remember reading this

1410
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 1: when I was reading about lyda cane. But taking it orally,

1411
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: it takes quite a while to take effect, and I

1412
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 1: would imagine that they would have been able to identify

1413
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 1: that in the stomach contents, wouldn't you. I'm trying to

1414
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: I was trying to think. I don't even if it's

1415
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,560
Speaker 1: available on say, any sort of oral form well, know

1416
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 1: what I'm it's a liquid. So what my what where

1417
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 1: I'm going with this is, let's continue to follow this narrative.

1418
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:13,599
Speaker 1: Shoe is tortured, captors go for a cappuccino break, Shoe

1419
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: breaks free, looks over and sees the light a cane

1420
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:21,639
Speaker 1: and says, here's a whole violet light a cane and

1421
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 1: just downs it as a general painkiller to get into

1422
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: his entire body because he doesn't want to take the

1423
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 1: time to inject it. But I would think that that

1424
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 1: would like numb the hell out of your throat and

1425
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 1: your gut. Not really, it doesn't seem like a really

1426
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 1: good idea. It's all local, Okay, just just reading m

1427
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 1: D here lyda cane's local. But that's yeah. So if

1428
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 1: it if he had drank it, then it would not

1429
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 1: have okay, that doesn't I mean, it would enter his

1430
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 1: blood stream in the same way eventually if he had.

1431
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 1: You know, if it had been injected to locally anaesthize

1432
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: anytime anywhere that they were like cutting but swallowing, it'll

1433
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: just make your mouth and throw Yeah, yeah, okay, that's

1434
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: what I thought. Okay, yeah, and so and he would

1435
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 1: have known that, Yeah, he was a doctor. So yeah,

1436
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 1: so yeah, especially the latter case indicates self mutilation to me.

1437
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:21,040
Speaker 1: And of course there is again as you mentioned earlier,

1438
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 1: he was on when he was on highway, Tanny drove

1439
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: right past a cop car that was pulled over the side,

1440
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 1: had its lights flashing and everything, and he drove right

1441
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 1: past it. Um. So that doesn't make you think that

1442
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 1: if he was wanting help, he would have stood on

1443
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:38,800
Speaker 1: the break yah. Yeah, yeah, and he would have you know,

1444
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 1: or he would have just driven by and go, hey, pig, Yeah,

1445
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 1: that'll that. Yeah, that'll always get him, always get him

1446
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 1: to help you. Yeah. And so I got to give

1447
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 1: the whole murder thing to fail, which kind of exonerates

1448
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: Nancy and Tracy both plus any other unnamed murderers out there.

1449
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 1: I don't buy the murder theory, which leaves us with

1450
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 1: a couple of more theories. Uh. So our next series

1451
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: that it was suicide. Um. And like I said, the

1452
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 1: initial Corner's verse was suicide, which was presented to a

1453
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 1: grand jury, which upheld the verdict. And of course there

1454
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 1: was a psychological autopsy, and uh what the the psychological

1455
01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 1: autopsy noted was that he'd been diagnosed by a psychiatrist,

1456
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:24,120
Speaker 1: and he'd been seeing a psychiatrist since December when he

1457
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 1: started having anxiety apparently about these letters and things and

1458
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: the insurance. But he was diagnosed as having panic order

1459
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 1: with a goreaphobia, and of course they noted that this

1460
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:35,439
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety just sort of does race the risk

1461
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 1: of suicide. And also he had stopped taking at least

1462
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 1: one of his meds, which was been laughi sine or

1463
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 1: is that van faccine, was also on con which is

1464
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 1: very similar. Yeah, he was also on clint asapam, although

1465
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: that he did have some of that in his system. Uh.

1466
01:15:56,160 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: In the autopsy, the med his medication history, he he

1467
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 1: originally began taking just klon aza pam and half a

1468
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:06,639
Speaker 1: milligram twice a day. In May two thousand two, less

1469
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 1: than a year before his death, the clan aspam was

1470
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: increased to three times a day and have been laft

1471
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 1: the vent of vaccine was added, and then by the

1472
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: time of his death that klan aza pam had been

1473
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 1: doubled again to one milligram three times a day and

1474
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:24,639
Speaker 1: and the venta faccine had been quadrupled. Uh. And so

1475
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 1: that kind of indicates to me that his issues were

1476
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 1: like maybe worsening well, but these were not the only

1477
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:35,560
Speaker 1: medications that they had tried. He had been on multiple medications,

1478
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 1: but every time, it's every medication that he was on.

1479
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, everyone that he was on he

1480
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 1: didn't take anymore because he complained of sexual side effects,

1481
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 1: which is so common with these things. It is, but

1482
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 1: it also he the prescription each time. It sounded, at

1483
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 1: least according to the psychological optops as if he went

1484
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: to his doctor and his doctor was like, so you're

1485
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 1: still taking Like, oh no, I I stopped taking that? Well,

1486
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,600
Speaker 1: why because problems in bed because of it? Like he

1487
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 1: never did it under the direction of his doctor. I

1488
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:15,559
Speaker 1: wonder if these like increases were not because they were

1489
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 1: increases in symptoms, but because they like it wasn't working.

1490
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 1: And at some point, I think every everybody should do this. Right,

1491
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: if you're on if you're prescribed to medication for something,

1492
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 1: you need to evaluate for yourself. Am I getting a

1493
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: benefit from this medication and are the side effects worth

1494
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,919
Speaker 1: the benefit that I'm getting? Right? And if so, if

1495
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 1: he was experiencing increased side effects and perceived to be

1496
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:45,600
Speaker 1: getting no actual benefits or minimal benefits from this continuing

1497
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:49,240
Speaker 1: increase and increase of dosage. I think it makes sense

1498
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 1: for him to have said I don't want to be

1499
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 1: on these anymore. You know, whether or not that was

1500
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: the right decision for him. Usually you should probably like

1501
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 1: include your doctor in that conversation, but we want to talk.

1502
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 1: That's something that people do. I've definitely done it before

1503
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 1: where it's like, you know what this You just keep

1504
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 1: putting me on medication and it's like not actually fixing anything.

1505
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 1: So like what I even doing putting all the stuff

1506
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 1: in my body? Well, it may not be an increase

1507
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 1: in the symptoms so much as the trying to control

1508
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:18,320
Speaker 1: the same symptoms because you have to give it time

1509
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 1: to kind of yeah, but yeah, so it just wasn't working,

1510
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:23,640
Speaker 1: So keep kicking it up and kicking it up and

1511
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: kicking it up. But then again, he was on fairly

1512
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 1: high levels of these of these things when he died,

1513
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 1: and again he stopped taking the vantle of vaccine. The

1514
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: area is a withdrawal when you when you take these drugs.

1515
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,840
Speaker 1: Apparently some of the other things that they noticed some

1516
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: besides the drugs and then seem stopping taking them, there

1517
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:44,599
Speaker 1: was a sort of general pattern of strangeness. There was

1518
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 1: this um, this whole thing about the notes, which nobody

1519
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 1: was really sure that he that they were real or

1520
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 1: if he just forged them, and the lack of envelopes

1521
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:55,719
Speaker 1: obviously made people a little suspicious. Another thing that they said,

1522
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:57,720
Speaker 1: and this was written by a psychiatrists and they were

1523
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:00,439
Speaker 1: the ones who wrote this report said, somebody like Shoe,

1524
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 1: who was a professional himself in that business, would probably

1525
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 1: have been able to hide paranoid delusions even from his

1526
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 1: own psychiatrist. He's so familiar with the behavior and everything.

1527
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: But I, you know, I I kept looking at the

1528
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: list of medications that this guy was on, and I

1529
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 1: gotta tell you you too know this because I've told

1530
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 1: you this story as it was happening. But I have

1531
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 1: an elderly family member who was on, you know, as

1532
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 1: an eight year old person on a lot of medications

1533
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:35,839
Speaker 1: because that's just the norm. And one of them happened

1534
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: to be a small doze um mood altering medication when

1535
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:43,760
Speaker 1: and it had surgery and got a whole bunch of

1536
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:48,679
Speaker 1: new medications at it on top and very quickly just

1537
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 1: developed a massive anxiety problem to the point that it

1538
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: was so disturbing. I was on the phone with the

1539
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 1: doctor because I had very quickly, you know, it was

1540
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:01,759
Speaker 1: so to short span of time, I could very quickly

1541
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,000
Speaker 1: trace it back. But you could see a guy like

1542
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: this who's on those those medications and they set that

1543
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:11,880
Speaker 1: panic and that anxiety would slowly build. And then if

1544
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 1: he's bouncing up and down in dosages or then you know,

1545
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 1: self terminating a prescription, it still takes a long time.

1546
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 1: I mean this family member that once we got the

1547
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: meds change, I think it was like and this is

1548
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 1: in a very short amount of time, but it was

1549
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 1: like two weeks or something of a complete medical overhaul

1550
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:34,559
Speaker 1: or a prescription overhaul for everything to have come out

1551
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: of the system enough that behavior returned to normal or baseline.

1552
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 1: So I mean for a guy like this being on

1553
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: that and slowly working, you know, working every day with

1554
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:48,600
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, I could see him very easily

1555
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 1: hiding it and being good at keeping it under his

1556
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 1: hat and and not letting anybody know what was going on.

1557
01:20:57,640 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 1: And it does sound like he had some some issue.

1558
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: I want to clarify when we're talking about the psychiatrists

1559
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:08,680
Speaker 1: that wrote this report, that's that's psychiatrists who they were

1560
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 1: the forensic psychologists. They're psychiatrists after the fact, right, they

1561
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 1: had never spoken to him. They didn't actually have a

1562
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 1: personal relationship with him. They spoke to his psychiatrist and

1563
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 1: she's doctor and everybody else, but they never interactive. But

1564
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:26,680
Speaker 1: it wasn't like his psychiatrists said, yeah, he could have

1565
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 1: been dealing with you know, Okay, I just wanted to

1566
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: clarify because they do feel like, not to take away

1567
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: from what these people do, but I do feel like

1568
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,639
Speaker 1: there's a pretty big distinction of people coming in after

1569
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:40,799
Speaker 1: the fact and like saying, oh, yeah, this vision obviously

1570
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 1: shows that this is what this person was suffering from

1571
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 1: versus people who are people they're dealing with it. But yeah,

1572
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 1: now these go. But but I think these guys had

1573
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:51,680
Speaker 1: the vantage point of knowing things like, for example, that

1574
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 1: she's psychiatrist didn't know because they took on an entire

1575
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:59,599
Speaker 1: investigation into this whole thing. Like for example, one thing

1576
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:04,880
Speaker 1: that they noted was the laptop incident. They thought was

1577
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 1: was really kind of telling from their point of view,

1578
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist because he had he had mentioned to his

1579
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 1: doctor Dr Jozynski uh that his name was the name

1580
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 1: was Dr Joseph Chezinski mentioned that had been stolen. He

1581
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:20,800
Speaker 1: never mentioned that it had been returned, and his wife

1582
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 1: never found that, never found any I never knew about

1583
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: any of it. Um They thought that that was rather odd.

1584
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:28,719
Speaker 1: Number one, that he didn't report it to the police,

1585
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,200
Speaker 1: number one and number two that and he thought that

1586
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:33,639
Speaker 1: and and they also thought that if he had talked

1587
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 1: to Dr Chezinski about it, that would have given him

1588
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of an end that would have given some insight

1589
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: into perhaps his personality and his paranoid and kind of

1590
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 1: less rational side, which he never got. Apparently Josynski said

1591
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 1: that he was actually kind of guarded about his about

1592
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:50,960
Speaker 1: his own personal life, and it was not it was

1593
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:54,479
Speaker 1: kind of noncommittal essentially, and so he never really got

1594
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:57,519
Speaker 1: a lot of insights, he said, into his personality and

1595
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,040
Speaker 1: he treated him and so did he have parent delusions? Again,

1596
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:03,880
Speaker 1: we don't know. He told Dr Chazynski all about the

1597
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 1: increased vigilance, taking different routes to get to work and

1598
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 1: back the po box instead of the mailbox because of

1599
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 1: the booby trapping, and of course, still with the suicide

1600
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:17,600
Speaker 1: theory that of course the scratches, the tentative, the hesitation

1601
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:22,479
Speaker 1: marks or an indicator and not proof, but an indicator. Uh,

1602
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: there is that police carry drove past, which again indicates

1603
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:29,960
Speaker 1: they're not murdering torture, but just he wanted to kill himself. Uh.

1604
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:33,559
Speaker 1: He mostly appeared to have his car to control, because

1605
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: the guys that followed him said that he did. He

1606
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 1: swerved around and sloughomed a little bit between the light

1607
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 1: pools monster truck rally for a minute, but then back

1608
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 1: on the freeway, back on the freeway and and stayed

1609
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 1: on it. His brake lights never came on, and so

1610
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 1: that indicates that he wasn't worried about his life. He

1611
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 1: was trying to kill himself. And they also like some

1612
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:54,440
Speaker 1: of the other things, like they were seeing as big positives,

1613
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:56,760
Speaker 1: like you know, he's he's retired, he's got this cool

1614
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 1: new job he's going to get, and he's got this

1615
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,760
Speaker 1: cool new house that's were going. But from another point

1616
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 1: of view, that could be seen as well a big

1617
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 1: scary new mortgage. This new career in private practice, well,

1618
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:08,639
Speaker 1: he had been in private practice before he went back

1619
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 1: into the Air Force. He he actually went in and

1620
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 1: then left and then came back later when he tried

1621
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 1: private practice as a psychiatrist and it failed. This was

1622
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:19,640
Speaker 1: his third stint in the Air Force, Yeah, because he

1623
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:22,040
Speaker 1: had been in for four years, got out for a couple,

1624
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 1: went back in, and got out for about ten more

1625
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 1: years when he when he got his degree, and then

1626
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 1: went back in. So he had large and during one

1627
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:34,559
Speaker 1: of the during that second tenure of not being in

1628
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:37,720
Speaker 1: the Air Force, that's when he went into private practice. Yeah,

1629
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 1: and it didn't work out so well. So yeah, so

1630
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 1: so that was maybe kind of a scary prospect. But

1631
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: on the other hand, he was retiring with pension, so

1632
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:49,479
Speaker 1: it's not like as scared, like he had a backup.

1633
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:52,519
Speaker 1: He had a hell of a golden parish. Yeah. Yeah,

1634
01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:55,559
Speaker 1: I mean they're two combined. Pensions were good. I mean,

1635
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 1: obviously if that hadn't worked out, and then they probably

1636
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:00,559
Speaker 1: would have had to get rid of the enormous house

1637
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:03,280
Speaker 1: because that was way too big a mortgage for there.

1638
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:06,599
Speaker 1: Even for that that's seventy five undred buck bucks a month,

1639
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 1: it's still way too much mortgage there. And but another

1640
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 1: big issue that I have with the suicide theory is

1641
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 1: that Colonel she was wearing a seat belt and he

1642
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 1: was driving a car that hit airbags. But they had

1643
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:20,640
Speaker 1: front airbags and had front airbags, and they didn't have

1644
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:24,360
Speaker 1: side airbags. Now, actually the Mercury, uh, this one did

1645
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 1: have side airbags. You positive about that? This isn't it

1646
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't it like a nineteen five? Yeah. I did

1647
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:36,160
Speaker 1: a little research on apparently that that particular model was

1648
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,680
Speaker 1: a Mercury Tracer in in the ninety three models and

1649
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 1: on apparently they had originally automatic seat belts. Those yeah,

1650
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,360
Speaker 1: oh yeah, those were the most annoying thing in the world.

1651
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So they phased those out, apparently the ninety

1652
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:54,519
Speaker 1: three models, and replaced them with side airbags, at least

1653
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 1: driver's side airbags. I'm not sure that every one of

1654
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:03,240
Speaker 1: them had, but okay, maybe not. The the Tracer is

1655
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:07,120
Speaker 1: equivalent to the Ford Escort. But here's what I'll say

1656
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:09,320
Speaker 1: is that, like, I don't the air bag thing, like

1657
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 1: find whatever, but the airbags weren't enough to save that.

1658
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 1: Cars have air bags, fine, But like if he was

1659
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:17,200
Speaker 1: trying to kill himself in a car, he like yeah, why,

1660
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 1: well yeah exactly, That's what that's the problem that I have.

1661
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 1: But but here's here's what it comes down to, is

1662
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,760
Speaker 1: we have you know, in all tellings of this, they're

1663
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: essentially two big theories murder suicide. But I have a

1664
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,920
Speaker 1: third one. Wait, wait, I I actually still have something

1665
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:38,200
Speaker 1: on suicide, which is the light acane. Okay, if he did,

1666
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: if he did self inject in one of the wound sites,

1667
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:46,080
Speaker 1: so we couldn't see the syringe points or the entry

1668
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 1: points of that. I was if you look at side

1669
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 1: effects of inter venous light a cane application, okay, they're sleepiness,

1670
01:26:55,840 --> 01:27:02,360
Speaker 1: muscle twitching, confusion, changes in vision, numbness which is pretty obvious,

1671
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:06,719
Speaker 1: tingling which is pretty obvious, and vomiting. So he could

1672
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 1: have maybe self administered that and injected it, and that

1673
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,599
Speaker 1: could have helped him along the path because he may

1674
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 1: have been like, I'm going to I'm going to take

1675
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:22,920
Speaker 1: myself out and then gets a little more confused, which

1676
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 1: is why he's swerving down the road when his intention

1677
01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: is to, you know, to plow into a light pole.

1678
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 1: But then he's kind of blinking and drifting and he

1679
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 1: actually drifts around things. I mean that that could possibly

1680
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 1: be a factor in it. I know that the levels

1681
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:41,120
Speaker 1: that they found an him were weird, and they really

1682
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 1: they didn't seem to line up. Do you know how

1683
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 1: much was found in his system? I thought it was

1684
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: something like I totally wrong on this. I thought it

1685
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:53,800
Speaker 1: was like about half a milligramper lead or something like that.

1686
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:58,240
Speaker 1: Would you like to hear the side effects of benetrol overdose, Yeah,

1687
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:02,720
Speaker 1: I would love to extreme sleepiness, confusion, weakness, ringing in

1688
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: the ears, blurred vision, large people's dry mouth, flushing, fever, shaking, insomnia, hallucinations,

1689
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,320
Speaker 1: and seizures. Yeah, yeah, which you could also So you're

1690
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:14,559
Speaker 1: thinking that, yeah, a combination of all of these drugs

1691
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 1: in his system. And there's also I guess, like just

1692
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:21,439
Speaker 1: to toss out the suicide theory, like to toss a

1693
01:28:21,439 --> 01:28:24,559
Speaker 1: little extra into the suicide theater theory is like, what

1694
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 1: if he tried to kill himself with benetrell, woke up

1695
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:30,040
Speaker 1: the next morning or didn't wake up the next morning,

1696
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 1: tried to kill himself benetrol somehow, and then started having

1697
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 1: hallucinations and getting really confused and like when and did

1698
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 1: all these really crazy things and then crashed his car.

1699
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:42,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a great theory, but it explains

1700
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:45,680
Speaker 1: like some of that stuff because like, who, well, my

1701
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:48,320
Speaker 1: problem with my problem with the whole thing about Benejrol

1702
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:52,200
Speaker 1: and ladder Cane is, uh, he's the guy was a doctor.

1703
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 1: He had all kinds of great drugs available to We

1704
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:58,479
Speaker 1: have far far better drugs for killing yourself available than

1705
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 1: to him than it like benejrol. Why it can I

1706
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:04,559
Speaker 1: think probably that's that's kind of so that's that's kind

1707
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:08,880
Speaker 1: of the issue there. Yeah, I'm not but again I'm

1708
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:11,720
Speaker 1: not saying this totally. This totally rules out suicide. I mean,

1709
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: he might have really wanted to kill himself. So what's

1710
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:19,040
Speaker 1: your third theory here? Well, I'm thinking it might have

1711
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 1: just been an accident and you know, well, what if

1712
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:26,360
Speaker 1: he stays to torture. What if he intended to get

1713
01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: into an accident but he didn't mean it to be fatal.

1714
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 1: So think about it. First of all, well, well, first

1715
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:34,559
Speaker 1: of all, we know he really really wanted to get

1716
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 1: that life insurance policy canceled, right, Yeah, it was first

1717
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:40,600
Speaker 1: of all, he was concerned about his safety. Whether that

1718
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:43,400
Speaker 1: was rational or not, he was definitely concerned about it.

1719
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:45,840
Speaker 1: And there could assob be just the possibility that he

1720
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:48,719
Speaker 1: really because maybe there's a little bit of bitterness because

1721
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:51,719
Speaker 1: of the divorce, maybe the whole idea of Nancy. Maybe

1722
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:53,800
Speaker 1: he has a heart attack and she cashes out to

1723
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 1: get to sweep pay out of a million bucks. Maybe

1724
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,600
Speaker 1: that idea just can't really burned him. Yeah right, that

1725
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,439
Speaker 1: could be that too, I don't know. But whatever the reason,

1726
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 1: everybody seems to agree he really wanted that life insurance

1727
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 1: policy canceled. Uh. And and maybe he felt even as

1728
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 1: even as a professionally thought well, the policy was causing

1729
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 1: anxiety and it was like this big cloud hanging over

1730
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:16,599
Speaker 1: his life, maybe he felt like if he could somehow

1731
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,200
Speaker 1: get that canceled, maybe he felt like his mental state

1732
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:22,559
Speaker 1: would improve and a lot of that anxiety and depression

1733
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:25,760
Speaker 1: might go away, maybe, which is not entirely unreasonable the

1734
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 1: thing to think. Whether it actually would have done that,

1735
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. But and so he decides to stage

1736
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 1: just kidnapping and torture and make it up here that

1737
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:35,720
Speaker 1: somebody was really out to get him. Uh, And that

1738
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:38,479
Speaker 1: will convince the insurance policy to drop the the insurance

1739
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 1: company excuse me to drop the policy. But again, but

1740
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: why the car rect And my thinking there is that

1741
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:46,759
Speaker 1: he wanted an excuse first for maybe some erratic behavior

1742
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:50,280
Speaker 1: and memory loss, because you imagine, you know, you go

1743
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 1: to the cops, you know, with your with your fake

1744
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:55,360
Speaker 1: torture and your duct tape and everything and they're like

1745
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 1: looking at you and kind of asking questions and they

1746
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:00,320
Speaker 1: eventually trip you up and stuff. At its great, you've

1747
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 1: been in a car wreck, you just say, hey, I

1748
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 1: hit my hand, I hit my head. I don't know.

1749
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:06,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, dude. So they're probably not going to

1750
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: question you quite as intensely if you're like in the hospital.

1751
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:14,040
Speaker 1: You've just had this car, you've been caught up, you're

1752
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 1: missing half your pinky finger and some of your ear,

1753
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,040
Speaker 1: and you know they're going to be like, wow, who

1754
01:31:19,080 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 1: did this? And you're gonna be like, I remember, They're

1755
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,520
Speaker 1: gonna be like, all right, well feel better, man? Yeah, exactly.

1756
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:27,479
Speaker 1: You know you're not going to be like okay, and

1757
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 1: which you know they're not going to go into it. No,

1758
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 1: I don't think so at all. Like again, it's it's

1759
01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 1: an all perfect excuse. Another thing is if he if

1760
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:38,799
Speaker 1: he was trying to kill himself, if I've actually traced

1761
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:41,800
Speaker 1: his route up Highway ten on street view, he goes

1762
01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 1: through three overpasses that had these nice, big concrete pillars

1763
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:47,719
Speaker 1: that he could have actually plowed into and they would

1764
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:50,080
Speaker 1: have done the job really nicely. Yeah. Yeah, And of

1765
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: course there were the light poles too. I'm sure they

1766
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 1: would have really worked well. Uh, you know, the the

1767
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:57,720
Speaker 1: Air Force, the arm Services report took this as hesitation

1768
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 1: hesitation behavior. For me, it's like maybe he was looking

1769
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: for a softer target then that a big old concrete pillar.

1770
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:08,320
Speaker 1: He may have, you know, when he got airborne, when

1771
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:10,800
Speaker 1: he was swerving in the meding he made may have

1772
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: been like, yes, this is when I'm gonna flip crap clip. Okay, fine,

1773
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 1: let's keep on looking. And I gotta say, if you know,

1774
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 1: if he intended to kill himself when when I first

1775
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 1: read about the story, I assumed he plowed head on

1776
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 1: into this tree. I had not seen the trade that

1777
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:33,599
Speaker 1: way a lot, it looks like. And when you actually

1778
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 1: see the pictures, I'm looking at that and I'm seeing

1779
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:37,640
Speaker 1: the side of his car cave in. And one of

1780
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:41,160
Speaker 1: the first questions I had, I asked myself, how exactly

1781
01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 1: did he did he do that on purpose? How did

1782
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,160
Speaker 1: you do that on purpose? Like like get that tree

1783
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 1: or just cream the side of his car right where?

1784
01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: You know? How did he get that? Did he do that?

1785
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:54,600
Speaker 1: And as we all know, I said, he clipped the

1786
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:58,080
Speaker 1: passenger side corner. The car spun around clockwise into the

1787
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:02,439
Speaker 1: bigger tree and killed him really good. And I'm kind

1788
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 1: of wondering if maybe he intended to drive between those trees.

1789
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,800
Speaker 1: He was not actually driving towards the tree that he

1790
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:10,800
Speaker 1: that killed him. He was driving to the right of it,

1791
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 1: and he would have missed it, thinking he was going

1792
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 1: to go right between, right between these two and maybe

1793
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:20,080
Speaker 1: and maybe hit some smaller trees and yeah, there'll be

1794
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 1: a big kaboom and everything like that, my airbag would

1795
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: go off. But but but it turned out those little

1796
01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 1: trees were stoutter and hardier than he had planned on.

1797
01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 1: And so yeah, that one tree he hit, it spun

1798
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:33,760
Speaker 1: spin around the other one in that tree. I looked

1799
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 1: at the picture as the tree looked like it was

1800
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:37,839
Speaker 1: none the worse for the wear the tree was actually

1801
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:40,680
Speaker 1: tree seemed to be doing just fine. Uh. And so

1802
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of my thinking, is that quite possibly he

1803
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 1: really didn't intend to kill himself. He didn't commit suicide,

1804
01:33:47,720 --> 01:33:51,960
Speaker 1: or if he committed it suicide, I guess, because I mean,

1805
01:33:51,960 --> 01:34:01,200
Speaker 1: if he killed himself, it was suicide, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1806
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's con best of both worlds.

1807
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:08,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like, there's still some questions but there's

1808
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 1: lots of big questions on all of the theories for

1809
01:34:10,439 --> 01:34:12,919
Speaker 1: me so well. But you know what I I started

1810
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:16,639
Speaker 1: thinking about as we were talking about the last theory

1811
01:34:16,720 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 1: and this theory, and I'm going to walk down the

1812
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:25,640
Speaker 1: road of possible psychosis, right, That's why I'm walking. But

1813
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:27,320
Speaker 1: I don't know a whole lot about this, and I'm

1814
01:34:27,320 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 1: gonna admit it at the outset, But I just wonder

1815
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:35,760
Speaker 1: if it's the same, if he's having you know, there's

1816
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:39,400
Speaker 1: a delusional personality or a second personality. It's almost like

1817
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 1: remember Fight Club Tyler Dirton, the second character in the

1818
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:47,720
Speaker 1: whole movie, which he's not really a person the whole time, Boilers.

1819
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 1: It's been a long time. If you haven't seen it yet,

1820
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. But the point is that it could have

1821
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:59,160
Speaker 1: been that he had something like that going on, and

1822
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:03,559
Speaker 1: so he's this other person that is torturing him and

1823
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 1: chasing him when in reality, while he sees somebody else

1824
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:11,640
Speaker 1: doing this stuff to him, he's doing it to himself

1825
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 1: like he's he's in some sort of altered state. And

1826
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:20,680
Speaker 1: whether that alternate personality is the dominant aggressor the one

1827
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:25,200
Speaker 1: that's doing the attacking or the victim in the whole thing,

1828
01:35:25,240 --> 01:35:28,320
Speaker 1: because it could be that the second, the second character

1829
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:32,040
Speaker 1: in his mind who occasionally came out and took over,

1830
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:35,639
Speaker 1: was actually the one that was paranoid and running, and

1831
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 1: so you just you don't know where in his headspace

1832
01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:41,479
Speaker 1: he's could have been. I'm just I'm wondering if it's

1833
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:44,280
Speaker 1: if that maybe because that that's a combination of the

1834
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 1: suicide and accident. Is like one part of his brain

1835
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,120
Speaker 1: wanted it to happen, the other part didn't, and in

1836
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:55,440
Speaker 1: his struggle it happened, but it wasn't fully consciously intentional.

1837
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:00,679
Speaker 1: That's that's that's kind of recing further into a psyche

1838
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 1: that I think we can I was going to say,

1839
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 1: I would, I would need to talk to some people about,

1840
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:13,800
Speaker 1: like realistically if that happens and what the real world. Yeah,

1841
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:16,599
Speaker 1: I don't know. Hollywood is real. It's not. Yes it is,

1842
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:18,760
Speaker 1: It's definitely not and if it's written in a book,

1843
01:36:18,800 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 1: it's real, and definitely Chechile lut Nick is not definitely

1844
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:25,920
Speaker 1: not real. I mean he's real, but his stuff is

1845
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:29,599
Speaker 1: so like I would, I would definitely want to know

1846
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 1: more about like the real I don't like how that

1847
01:36:35,160 --> 01:36:39,400
Speaker 1: manifests in reality. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know.

1848
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:41,600
Speaker 1: I just I don't think there's a good theory on

1849
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:43,599
Speaker 1: this case. Yeah, and I don't know. I mean, I mean,

1850
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 1: that's that's always possible. But it's like, you know, it's

1851
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 1: hard to get it's hard to say what was going

1852
01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 1: on with a guy totally. He didn't seem to be

1853
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,240
Speaker 1: actually that far around the band. I mean the anxiety,

1854
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:56,120
Speaker 1: which is not really that unusual most of us. I mean,

1855
01:36:56,160 --> 01:37:02,480
Speaker 1: most people suffer from anxiety exhibited so really weird behavior,

1856
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,439
Speaker 1: like the whole thing on the airplane. We we're talking

1857
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:08,240
Speaker 1: about this, but he got he got into a small

1858
01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:11,720
Speaker 1: altercation on an airplane at landed in Chicago, and they

1859
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,040
Speaker 1: said that he smacked a stewardess on the back. And

1860
01:37:15,080 --> 01:37:20,080
Speaker 1: then he's doing all these things like declining commanding a

1861
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:22,320
Speaker 1: unit and all this stuff because he doesn't want to

1862
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:25,040
Speaker 1: smear the service and he's got to get that take

1863
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:30,880
Speaker 1: care of. Like that's really really really oddly obsessively focused

1864
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 1: on what seems like a minor thing. I think he

1865
01:37:34,040 --> 01:37:36,880
Speaker 1: was using that. It seems obsessive in one but it

1866
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 1: was like for him, I think, a good excuse to

1867
01:37:39,479 --> 01:37:42,120
Speaker 1: avoid doing something. What they were talking about was promoting

1868
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:44,640
Speaker 1: him to a command post, which would have been a

1869
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 1: lot more responsibility, and he might have taken a reading

1870
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:50,200
Speaker 1: of his own psychic state and decided that he didn't

1871
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:52,120
Speaker 1: really need that kind of pressure. Well, he also might

1872
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:55,960
Speaker 1: have said, you know what got four months ago, I

1873
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:59,559
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't take that promotion. Yea, So you can see

1874
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 1: it as there. On the one hand, it was a

1875
01:38:01,479 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 1: really totally rational response saying, hey, this might break me.

1876
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:06,479
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take that command and I'm going

1877
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:09,280
Speaker 1: to make up whatever kind of weak excuse I can

1878
01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:11,759
Speaker 1: come up with, I will do it. But we also

1879
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:15,639
Speaker 1: all know like that person who's just always a martyr

1880
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:19,320
Speaker 1: in their lives, you know, where they're always like, oh God,

1881
01:38:19,439 --> 01:38:22,360
Speaker 1: I have it so hard. I couldn't possibly, I can't.

1882
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:25,760
Speaker 1: I have to do the right thing for this, for

1883
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 1: the for the good of the greater good, I can't.

1884
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:32,479
Speaker 1: I couldn't possibly give my But we all know people

1885
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:35,160
Speaker 1: like that, and it's totally possible that he was maybe

1886
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:37,400
Speaker 1: a little bit like that, and he you know, it

1887
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:40,719
Speaker 1: wasn't like a delusional thing. He was just kind of

1888
01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 1: one of those weirdos Queen Yeah, who was just like, no, no,

1889
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:49,600
Speaker 1: my issues are just too big shoulder. I couldn't possibly

1890
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:51,640
Speaker 1: And we're not mocking that, by the way. It's just

1891
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: I mean that we're trying to rationally just got stuff.

1892
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:57,120
Speaker 1: So but it's impossible and we're gonna I mean, we

1893
01:38:57,120 --> 01:38:59,719
Speaker 1: could literally sit here for another oh my god, another

1894
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:03,679
Speaker 1: two No, I just it's not Yeah, I think though

1895
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:06,680
Speaker 1: that And that's another reason I like. I prefer the

1896
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 1: I prefer the whole thing about the accident because I

1897
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:13,640
Speaker 1: see number one. If assuming, for example, Nancy didn't want

1898
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:15,639
Speaker 1: to kill him, he had a great way to deny

1899
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 1: her that million bucks, which is just don't die. Don't

1900
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:21,200
Speaker 1: kill yourself. That's all I do to keep the to

1901
01:39:21,280 --> 01:39:23,320
Speaker 1: keep the X from getting the million bucks. It's just

1902
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,120
Speaker 1: the gym every day, yeah, yeah, right, you know, and

1903
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and so bring her killing him, borrying

1904
01:39:31,880 --> 01:39:35,559
Speaker 1: her killing him exactly, and so work every day. But

1905
01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:37,760
Speaker 1: the other thing reason I don't, I don't buy into

1906
01:39:37,840 --> 01:39:39,840
Speaker 1: the course and again, suicide or not I was rational

1907
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 1: is if so much of his anxiety came from this

1908
01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 1: fear that he was going to get murdered for the money,

1909
01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:48,679
Speaker 1: and then well, what's the response. I'm gonna go kill myself. Dude,

1910
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 1: I thought that's what you were afraid of, you know,

1911
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: And but yeah, like you said, it's like not so

1912
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:56,000
Speaker 1: it's like he gets the worst of with this. It's

1913
01:39:56,000 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 1: like he kills himself, which he was terrified of, and

1914
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 1: the X gets a million box which he didn't want

1915
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 1: to have to see happen. And so it's like, that's

1916
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:06,479
Speaker 1: why I'm still liking accident over suicide. But of course

1917
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:10,639
Speaker 1: we'll never entirely probably not for a fact. I'm certain

1918
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: in my own mind at least that he was not

1919
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:14,920
Speaker 1: murdered and not towards I think the accident there is

1920
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:18,800
Speaker 1: a really good one. I think he talked about fight club. Yeah. Good,

1921
01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 1: a minute too. Well, anyway, let's let's do a little

1922
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:25,240
Speaker 1: housekeeping before we signed off for this week. Naturally, you're

1923
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:27,120
Speaker 1: probably gonna have an opinion on this, you're gonna want

1924
01:40:27,120 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 1: to share it, of course, that's okay. We have an

1925
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:34,480
Speaker 1: email just for that, Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.

1926
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:36,160
Speaker 1: And of course we have a web page which is

1927
01:40:36,200 --> 01:40:39,479
Speaker 1: also of course called Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where

1928
01:40:39,560 --> 01:40:42,679
Speaker 1: you can find our our episodes. Uh you can find

1929
01:40:42,720 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 1: also an episode list. It's uh, got them all right there? Easy,

1930
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:49,000
Speaker 1: too easy to scroll through and find. And we've got

1931
01:40:49,040 --> 01:40:52,160
Speaker 1: we've done. Yeah, it's searchable. We've got over two hundred

1932
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:56,479
Speaker 1: stories we've done. Uh. And you can buy merch merch, yeah,

1933
01:40:56,760 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 1: like mugs and T shirts and I don't know all

1934
01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:04,760
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff, slim jims. We don't sell slim jims.

1935
01:41:04,760 --> 01:41:11,519
Speaker 1: Why not? Yeah, lock picks anyway. Um, so that's and also,

1936
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:13,880
Speaker 1: of course we are on iTunes and a lot of

1937
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:18,680
Speaker 1: other streaming services. Also you should subscribe if you want to.

1938
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:21,439
Speaker 1: Of course you should know. You should uh leave us

1939
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:23,600
Speaker 1: a rating, a high rating, and also a review. We

1940
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 1: like that. And uh, we're also on social media. We're

1941
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:29,439
Speaker 1: on Facebook, of course, where we have a group and

1942
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:32,800
Speaker 1: a page. You can like the page and join the group,

1943
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:35,000
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of fun discussions going on out there.

1944
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 1: And uh, we're on Twitter where we are thinking sideways.

1945
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:42,080
Speaker 1: And we are on Reddit, where of course we are

1946
01:41:42,200 --> 01:41:45,040
Speaker 1: thinking sideways and what's going on in the reddit devon?

1947
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:48,839
Speaker 1: Anything good? Now? Okay? Yeah, what have I forgotten anything?

1948
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 1: All right? Well, that's it for this week. So I

1949
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 1: don't have any snappy No, I don't. All right, see

1950
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:58,440
Speaker 1: you guys, bye, oh bye, guys. Better everybody,