1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and sixty three. 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: We'll be talking to Shasta Nelson, who is the author 12 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: of a new book called The Business of Friendship, which 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: is talking about building and maintaining close relationships with colleagues 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: and why that's important. It makes your career both work 15 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: better and also feel better if you have people you 16 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: enjoy spending time with at work. So, Sarah, how's your 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: your friend game looking at the moment? Not great? I 18 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: mean I've talked about this before, but I felt like 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: it takes years when you move to establish your friend group. 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: I think it took me like four years in Miami Beach. 21 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: We moved here less than two years ago, haven't been 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: able to do it. I feel like I'm like starting, 23 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: but then COVID really really threw a wrench. Like there 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: was I was on some neighborhood what's Up groups and 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: was like at the point where I might be like, oh, 26 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: maybe this person would want to run with me, or 27 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: like sort of tried to start a neighborhood book club 28 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: that didn't go anywhere, and then COVID really like wasn't 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: great timing, because when you've moved to a new place, 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: like you want to go to a kind of bigger 31 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: and more casual gatherings perhaps as you're getting to know someone. 32 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: So so yeah, my friend game is sort of lame 33 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: right now. And even my like really close friends from 34 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Miami Beach, like, we did one zoom date with them 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: recently and it was great, but like we've barely seen 36 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: them and it makes me so sad. So I don't know, 37 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: hopefully that we'll get a little bit better someday. We 38 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: did go to an outdoor pool party for Annabelle's BFF 39 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: that was really fun, and we're probably gonna do a 40 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: beach play date with them, and I like the mom, 41 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: so that that'll be nice. As an aside, I have 42 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: a little bit of an issue where I like can't 43 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: bring myself to attend a kid's Zoom birthday party, like 44 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: just doesn't do it for you, in fact, any Zoom celebration, 45 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Like I have this block where I just don't even 46 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: want to write it my planner. I'm like, I just 47 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: and I will, Like I had one that I would 48 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: have gone through that I actually did accidentally miss and 49 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: that made me kind of sad because I'm very close 50 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: with them. But otherwise, like I just I don't know. 51 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: Did you do the car parade? No, I don't do 52 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: car parades. I mean if it were like a close 53 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: family member and I was gonna get to like see 54 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: them and have a conversation with them, like tiny car parade, 55 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: I would consider it. But like the idea of like 56 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: twenty third graders like driving past a like I'm a 57 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: horrible person. I'm sorry, Please don't hate me for this. 58 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: I just we all have the things we dislike. Not 59 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: into it. What you people hate puppies and rainbows. I 60 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: don't hate puppies or rainbows. Those are both lovely things. 61 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: Have you gone to a bunch of have you piled 62 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: all five kids in the car and gone to some 63 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: We've only done a few of I mean most people 64 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: have just not done stuff. I mean they've just you know, 65 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: if people were celebrating birthdays, they just do a small 66 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: family kind of thing one year. I guess it's not 67 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: a big deal to do something like that. And we've 68 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: done a few car things for like end of school 69 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: related stuff, right, So we did those to go celebrate 70 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: and see the teachers and wave and say hi and 71 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: all that, and that seemed fairly innocuous. I don't know 72 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: it was okay for me. No, I did do it 73 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: for the school. I guess I drove by to get 74 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: annabel supplies and said hi to her teacher. But that 75 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: was that was about it. Yeah, I mean Zoom is 76 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: just awkward in general. We've family conversations on zoom. It's 77 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: it's always it's as hard to manage as it would 78 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: work thing, only it's harder because you don't have an 79 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: agenda per se, and you don't have one person in charge. 80 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: So given that those are necessary components of a business 81 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: zoom meeting and you don't have them generally when you 82 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: are having a social get together, it makes it quite 83 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: difficult to pull it off, so you know, there's a 84 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: reason it feels awkward. I wonder if families would be 85 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: better off being like, okay, agenda, we're all going to 86 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: go around and say this so much it would I 87 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: mean one hundred percent would be. You need one person 88 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: to be the facilitator, so whoever, maybe whoever organized it, 89 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: can just put that person in charge of it. They 90 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: can then go around and ask everybody a question in turn, 91 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: ask people follow up questions by name, like Joe, can 92 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: you say what you wanted to say about Mary? Doing that? 93 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: You know it sounds terrible, but that's how it works, right, 94 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: and that keeps it from being exhausting and awful. So 95 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: I asked you I kind of got to get your 96 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: head around that, because truthfully, if you're at a FAMI gathering, 97 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: everyone's having individual conversations. Is not all one large thing 98 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: with you all facing each other. And that's why assuming 99 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: all of you on it is like the worst Thanksgiving 100 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: dinner ever, because I mean, imagine like twelve of you 101 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: around a table trying to have one conversation, like somebody 102 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: winds up dominating it. Somebody's you know, trying to say something, 103 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,679 Speaker 1: but being ignored like somebody is just carping about whatever, 104 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: somebody's like on our phone like it just that's what 105 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: it winds up being. So it has to be either 106 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: put into smaller groups or somebody facilitating it. Yes, I 107 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, we haven't done that much friend related 108 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: stuff either this summer. But you've run with another person. 109 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 1: I don't run somebody, so that's great. We have had 110 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: our a couple people over for like porch like drinks 111 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: on the porch in the course of the past few months, 112 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and it's been wonderful every time we do that. I 113 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: think you could obviously have too many social obligations and 114 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: feel like they're draining or whatever. But when you're only 115 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: having a few of you wind up looking forward to 116 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: them a lot. It's like other people, Oh my goodness, 117 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: we're not just talking to each other. So I've really 118 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: enjoyed doing that and that was nice to have. Yeah, 119 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: that does sound really nice. Yeah, Well, we'll hear from 120 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: Shasta about how we can maintain friendships in this challenging time, 121 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: so looking forward to that. Well, Sarah and I are 122 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: delighted to welcome Shasta Nelson to the program. She is 123 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: the author of a new book called the Business of Friendship, 124 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: and she is also an expert on friendship in general. 125 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: So Shasta, first, I would love to have you introduce 126 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: yourself to our listeners, and then you know a little 127 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: bit about your work, your life and what drew you 128 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: to this topic. Yeah. I've been studying friendship now for 129 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: twelve years. Really specifically, I've always passionate about relationships in general. 130 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: But I found myself looking at us some studies coming 131 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: out talking about specifically at the time for women, how 132 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: significant their friendships were to their health and to their happiness. 133 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: And yet I was looking around at all of us 134 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: being so obsessed with the parent child's relationship and the 135 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, and like we were buying thousands of books, 136 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: and we were like, who am I if I don't 137 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: have these relationships, And it was like that was just 138 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: like we think of them as the kind of the 139 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: things we need in our lives, and yet the research 140 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: shows that those things actually aren't always that great for 141 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: our happiness and our health, and traditionally haven't always been 142 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: that way. And that is our friendships that matt make 143 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: such a difference. So I just found myself kind of 144 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: in that space where I was looking around being like, 145 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: why aren't people talking about this more? Why aren't people 146 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: doing more research on this? Why are we like not 147 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: finding resources for people? And that's really what kind of 148 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: just put me in that space. It wasn't because I 149 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: knew that much about it. It It was because I was 150 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: asking the questions and just trying to find resources for people, 151 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: for people I was working with and stuff. And ever 152 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: since then, I've been reading and devouring and learning and 153 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: listening and teaching and writing books and speaking and gathering 154 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: up you know, most of it's with women, and this 155 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: book puts me a little bit broader. I'm doing more 156 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: co ed which is actually very cool too, because I've 157 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: long felt that men I think this is one of 158 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: the reasons why they die younger than women. And I 159 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: think this is why I think men need. I don't 160 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: think it's a women's issue. I think it's a human need, 161 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: and so I'm really excited to be talking about it 162 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: in those broad terms too. But yeah, friendship is like 163 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: the thing. Friendship is the thing. And you actually have 164 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: a ministerial degree, don't you. I mean, you're approaching this 165 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: from a really sort of holistic perspective. Yeah, my training 166 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: is I've got a Master's of Divinity and I used 167 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: to pastor and so it felt like a big veer 168 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: off the road. But when I look back on it, 169 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: I was like, that was where I was doing marriage counseling. 170 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: I was training small groups and as a pastor, you're 171 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: asking the question, how do I bond community? What is community? 172 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: And how do people belong? And so really thinking through 173 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: when somebody walks in the door as a visitor, what 174 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: does it mean to actually participate and belong? And so, yeah, 175 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: I've in many ways have always been about community and 176 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: wanting all of us to feel that sense of yeah, belonging, 177 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: And unfortunately in churches, not all of them, but unfortunately 178 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: in most churches, you can expe that belonging. But there's 179 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: a lot of that. You have to believe a certain 180 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: thing to belong, or you have to behave a certain 181 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: way to behave, or you have to appear a certain 182 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: way to it, you know, And that kind of never 183 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: rubbed me right either. So it's really just how do 184 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: we all as humans get that need to feel connected 185 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: met in ways where we just feel accepted for who 186 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: we are. So, yeah, that's been a life passion and 187 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: what made you want to tackle the workplace side of it? Then, Yeah, 188 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: such a good question. I So here's the thing. My 189 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: second book was a titled Friend Timassy, and that one 190 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: was talking about how most of us when we feel lonely, 191 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: and that's a word that most of us don't actually 192 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: even use a name very well, but when we feel 193 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: like we want something more, most of us, it's not 194 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: we want more interaction or that we need to know 195 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: more people, or that we need to go make new friends. 196 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: Most of us, it's that we need to we need 197 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: to have closer relationships. We're craving intimacy, We're craving more 198 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: meaningful relationships. And so I was noticing that a lot 199 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: of us, when we felt lonely, we were like, oh, 200 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: I need to go make friends, I need to meet people. 201 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: And I was like, no, you actually know enough people. 202 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: You don't feel known by a few, and so you 203 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: need to like go deeper. And so when I teach 204 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: what deepens relationship, one of the three things that deepens 205 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: relationships is consistent time and shared experiences and repeated interaction. 206 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: And I this won't surprise you at all. The number 207 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: one thing I heard is I don't have time for that. 208 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't have time to be that consistent. I you know, 209 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: I can only meet here for lunch once a month, 210 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: or I can only see them, you know, once a year, 211 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: wife fly out there, or I just don't have time 212 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: to be on the phone. And I just over and 213 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: over and over, I don't have time. And I've thought, 214 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: you know, I could do my darnedest to like talk 215 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: you into one more hour a week, and that's not 216 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: going When you see the numbers collectively of sixty one 217 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: percent of us feeling lonely on a somewhat regular basis, 218 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think I can talk you 219 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: into one more hour, and that's going to make the 220 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: biggest difference. I think we need to tackle. You know, 221 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: work is like to adults what school is to kids. 222 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: This is where we're spending time with people, where we're interacting, 223 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: where we're making our biggest contribution. And I was like, 224 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: why don't we talk about putting friendship in our whole 225 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: life as opposed to trying to fit it in this 226 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: personal life bucket with a thing I was and other things. 227 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: And to me, this is really answering the question of, like, 228 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: how can we get more of our emotional social needs 229 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: met in the biggest part of our lives in that bucket. 230 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: So it's answering the question I don't have time, Well 231 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: you do, just yes, exactly. But I think a lot 232 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: of people feel a little weird about that, right, I mean, first, 233 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: we're accustomed to thinking of life and separate spheres, but 234 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, one is where we can have this this vulnerability, 235 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, the intimacy with people in our personal lives. 236 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, we feel a little bit weird about that 237 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: in the workplace, Like is it okay to be vulnerable 238 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: and intimate with people at work? Yeah? Absolutely it is. 239 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: And it's so interesting because we are uncomfortable with it. 240 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: When I was doing the research, about thirty percent of 241 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: us are like yeah. And yet when asked how many 242 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: of us want a friend, almost all of us are like, oh, yes, please, 243 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, and at work we're like, we're not sure 244 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: it's appropriate, but we want one. And also, it is. 245 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: It is, whether we like it or not. It is 246 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: the number one place adults are making their friends. And 247 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: so that is happening. And my bigger question is it 248 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: is happening. We need it to happen. What we need 249 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: to do is talk about it more and teach healthy 250 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: expectations and set this up so that it's best for 251 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: the people involved and for the workplace. And the research 252 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: shows it is absolutely paramount not to our not only 253 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: to our individual health and happiness, but to the organizations 254 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: of whom we work, which is really fascinating. I mean, 255 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: there's twenty years of research. I mean we're talking decades 256 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: and many, many different people studying it in a variety 257 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: of different ways. Who say, if you have a best 258 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: friend at work, you are the best employee for the workplace. 259 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: You're more engaged, you have better you treat the customers better, 260 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: You're less likely to leave. So we're bringing our turnover 261 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: costs down. You call in sick less, you have fewer 262 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: workplace accidents. I mean you just look down the list, 263 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: and the people who have a best friend at work 264 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: absolutely show up and feel more engaged, look forward to 265 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: Monday morning, the Monday morning and air quotes, and feel 266 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: like they want to kind of. They feel supported, and 267 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: they feel safe for brainstorming, They feel safe for taking risks, 268 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: They feel safer showing up with big ideas. And those 269 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: last few ideas are examples of vulnerability. In the workplace, 270 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: And to your point, a lot of us are like, well, 271 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: we picture people telling personal drama and disclosing like all 272 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: these like he did one last night, and we picture 273 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: vulnerability and we have like these fears that pop into 274 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: our head immediately. And I do teach incremental slow vulnerability 275 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: when we talk about disclosing, and I teach how to 276 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: do that in a healthy, safe way. But more importantly, 277 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: vulnerability is what we need in order to brainstorm. It's 278 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: what we need to be able to say, I actually 279 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: don't know the answer to this, right, I actually need 280 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: help with this or you know, not just diversity, but 281 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: inclusion is vulnerability. It's like, let me, I don't want 282 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: to just have you be a token different person at 283 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: the table. I actually want your differences to impact our 284 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: answers here and your story to change what we're trying 285 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: to do and how you're experiencing this, and I mean 286 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: all when we actually list everything we want for the 287 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: workplace and how we will be better together, it takes 288 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: an incredible amount of vulnerability to do that. This is 289 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: so interesting and very much falls in line with some 290 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: projects that I'm actually working on at work right now, 291 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: which is funny. Because I don't really let that part 292 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: get into the podcast too much. But I am one 293 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: of the newer roles is to be on this wellness committee, 294 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: and one of the things we're doing is exactly that, 295 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: trying to just build a friend community amongst the like 296 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: jillions of physicians that work in this one healthcare system. 297 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: And there it is. And I will say the older 298 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: generation is more resistant to that, and I wonder if 299 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: that's because they're trying to preserve some separation, whereas the 300 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: younger ones, and particularly the younger ones with parents, have 301 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: been like, yes, let's get together, let's do stuff, Like 302 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: we just started a what's Up group that people are 303 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: actually participating in, and I can see that, like we're 304 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: starting with these really like mundane things, but if we continue, 305 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: maybe people will start to like strip some layers off 306 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: and then maybe we could someday actually meet in person 307 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: and hang out and that would be like a whole 308 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: other level. Yeah. I love that. I mean, the research 309 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: just shows and backs that up of how important that is. 310 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: From I mean, I just listed a whole bunch of 311 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: stuff where that benefits the organization, but from us personally, 312 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: these are the people that we're interacting with who help 313 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: us build resilience, you know, you especially when you talk 314 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: about doctors and the people on the front lines. I mean, 315 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: the more supportive they feel, the more people that they 316 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: have sharing similar experiences and saying I struggle with that too, 317 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: and yes, this is what my customer did or my 318 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: patient did, and you know, I mean, these are the 319 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: things that help us build resilience, help us feel more supported, 320 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: help us feel like what we're doing matters. It helps 321 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: us kind of get oriented to ourselves. And when you 322 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: look at happiness and health numbers, these are the people 323 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: who are impacting our health more so than like that 324 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: best friend we only talk to every couple months or something. 325 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: I mean, these are the people we're interacting with and 326 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: have more are affecting whether we're come home stressed or not, 327 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: more than anything else. I say, come home, whether it's 328 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: virtual or whatever that looks like for each of us. 329 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, these are the people that are shaping us 330 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: and our happiness and our mental health and our well 331 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: being in the area where we are arguably spending the 332 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: bulk of our brain and our time. So it's that's 333 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: a beautiful story. So how do you go about getting 334 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: a best friend at work though, I mean it's sort 335 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: of you're not in seventh grade anymore and class and 336 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, pinky swearing your best friends or something. So 337 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: how does this tend to happen? Yeah, so it tends 338 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: to happen where we So what makes the workplace amazing 339 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: for building friendships is there's three requirements that have to 340 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: be So when we study any healthy relationship, there's three 341 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: things that have to be present, and one of them 342 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: I named earlier was consistency. It's consistent interaction. And that's 343 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: why that one is what happens automatically in many workplaces 344 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: because we have proximity, we have kind of we're being 345 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: pulled together on video calls, like we're meeting people on 346 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: it and seeing them on a regular basis. If in 347 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: our non work friends, this is the one that's hardest 348 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: for us to pull off because the only way to 349 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: get that consistency is to initiate it, to schedule it, 350 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: to send those five emails back and forth to like 351 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: schedule three weeks out. But here we're paid to interact. 352 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: So in our work we have the consistency somewhat done 353 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: for us, which is fabulous. And then we're going to 354 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: build our bond with the people in that space who 355 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: do the other two requirements with us. So we're seeing 356 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people. Well, the other two requirements 357 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: are vulnerability and positivity, and so we're going to build 358 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: relationships with those who we practice these three things with 359 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: we pick. Like, it's interesting, our best friends are not 360 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: the people we pick because they're the most amazing people 361 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: because we interviewed them, because we have the most in 362 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: common with them. Our brains tell us that, but we actually, 363 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: any relationship we've ever built, it's because we practice those 364 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 1: three things the most. With those people we had the 365 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: most enjoyable, positive emotions when we interact with them, we 366 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: have the most We feel most seen and understood and 367 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: gotten with that vulnerability, and we have enough shared history 368 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: that we start feeling like we can trust each other 369 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: and have that safety and that reliability to that pattern. 370 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: And so the more we practice positivity, consistency, and vulnerability, 371 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: that will be who becomes our best friend. And that 372 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: takes time and that's developed. And in a workplace, I'm 373 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: always saying there's five levels of relationship that I teach 374 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: and it's kind of subjective, but that's just for our 375 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: brains to kind of see different growth. And it's you 376 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: don't find a best friend, you develop a best friendship 377 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: with some people by practicing these three things over and 378 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: over and over and over. Well, awesome, We're gonna delve 379 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: more into that in a second. We're gonna just take 380 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: a quick ad break. So Sarah and I are talking 381 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: with Shasta Nelson, who is the author of the new 382 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: book The Business of Friendship, and she is sharing why 383 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: friend You know, work, the workplace is a great place 384 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: to make friends, to have friends. The consistency is of 385 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: course part of this. But it's interesting that your book 386 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: is coming out now six months after so many people 387 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: have been you know, ripped out of their workplaces working 388 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: from home for the first time. How how does that 389 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: change what's what's going on in terms of workplace friendships. Oh, 390 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: it changes it in huge ways because now that consistency 391 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: that we had by uh, you know, now I can 392 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: walk to my kitchen and take a break, but there's 393 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: nobody else in the break room, you know, And now 394 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: you can like we have a we have a we 395 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: can do a video conference meeting, or we're all still 396 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: pulling together. But if we were in person, we would 397 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: have a little side call conversations before the meeting got started, 398 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: so one on one we'd have to ask about the weekend, 399 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: and we'd walk to the back to our desks together. 400 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: And so we're missing the small moments. We're missing the 401 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: spontaneous conversations kind of what proximity allows and invites. And 402 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: so yeah, we're now a little bit the way I 403 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: would compare it, you know, it's a little bit like 404 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: sending your kids to school versus now they're being homeschooled. 405 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: Then you have to be more more strategic, you have 406 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: to like it can be done. But now we have 407 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: to kind of go back to being intentional about scheduling 408 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: that consistency again. And now this puts it back into 409 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: the same category as some of our non work friends, 410 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: where it's like for us to feel close, we are 411 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: going to have to have some pattern, some way of interacting, 412 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: and if it's not automatically being done in meetings and 413 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: in video calls. Now we're back to the place where 414 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: we do have to figure out a new pattern we 415 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: have to which, on the one hand, is good because 416 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: I always say work is the number one place where 417 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: most of us make friends as adults. It's also the 418 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: number one place most of us in friendships not meaning to, 419 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: but when we change jobs, most of our friendships die 420 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: simply because we never put to put together a new 421 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: pattern of consistency. We actually really liked each other, and 422 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: then we just assumed we'd stay connected. But if we 423 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: never actually created a new pattern, a new way of 424 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: like now, how do we interact now? When do we interact? Now? 425 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: How often do we get together? And what is it 426 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: we do together? If we didn't answer those questions, that 427 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: friendship kind of died. And now in some ways we 428 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: have that privilege of getting to practice that with if 429 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: we had good friends in the workplace, we get to 430 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: practice putting that new pattern together now, and it could 431 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: help build make sure these friendships laught beyond the time 432 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: we share this job together. You know, so at some 433 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: point this has to happen. We're being forced to figure 434 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: it out sooner than later. Now, I wonder if you 435 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: could give an example of what that might look like like, 436 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: You know, should I if I have let's say somebody 437 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: is your colleague and you'd like to have a friendship 438 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: with them, I mean, should you say, let's let's do 439 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: a Monday coffee break together. I mean, should you just 440 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: call them after every meeting you're in and say whatever 441 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: you would have said on the way to the bathroom 442 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: in the hallway? But what should you do? It is? 443 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: It is hard, and it depends on how much relationship 444 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: you had with them before you got bad, before you're 445 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: all back in your homes now, if you had, if 446 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: you felt like you were good friends. Absolutely we should 447 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,239 Speaker 1: be saying, Okay, we don't know when we're getting back 448 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: to the office. We need to figure this out. What 449 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: works for you does Let's get something on the calendar. 450 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: And to your point, anything that can be automated is 451 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: a pattern that we can put in place that then 452 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: means we're spending more time engaging and spending time together 453 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: and less time having, you know, do the logistics of 454 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: an inviting scheduling and organizing. So anything that can be automated. 455 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: Let's say, would you rather start our week every Monday 456 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: for twenty minutes talking about what's coming up for the 457 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: week and how the weekend went. Do you want to 458 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: end every do a quick video toast at the end 459 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: on Fridays? Do we do virtual lunch on Wednesdays? Like? 460 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: What works for you? So? Absolutely we want to be 461 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: putting that into place. It's harder I think for those 462 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: of us who got a lot of our social needs 463 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: met but didn't really foster any friendships where it would 464 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: feel that comfortable to reach out and do one on 465 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: one And in that case, we still need to do it. 466 00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: It's going to be a little more awkward. Somebody may 467 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: not want to just commit to you every single week 468 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: if you didn't have that kind of interaction with them 469 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: in the office, and or for people who are starting 470 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: as new hires now and don't have that relationship to 471 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: start with it, so we have to be way more intentional. 472 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: This is where managers I do a ton of stuff. 473 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm like really passionate about managers on leaders helping take 474 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: some of this on. But yeah, for those of us 475 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: who may not have had those friends, I think we could. 476 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: One of the things I've heard one person do that 477 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: was great was he just made a list of a 478 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: couple names of people that he wanted to know or liked, 479 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: and he just like kind of reached out to them 480 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 1: and said, hey, I'm just trying to make sure that 481 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 1: I get my social needs met. And I think that's 482 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: the cool thing is now we can say it like 483 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: we can. We're all in it. We all know we're 484 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: working from home. He's like, I need to talk to 485 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: somebody other than my two year olds and in my meetings, 486 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: and so, you know, just like I'm just reaching out 487 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: and doing one phone call every Thursday, and I'd love 488 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: to have you be one of my Thursday calls. You know, 489 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: so schedule if you're happy to. And he kind of 490 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: just put the call out to a broader group of people, 491 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: and I think that's great. I mean, I think we 492 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: can kind of own that and say this is we 493 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: all have these needs. This is not a problem with us. 494 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: This is us doing what's healthy and good for us. 495 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: And so we can step into that and say I 496 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: need to It's not going to just happen for me. 497 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: I have to do something to make it happen. And 498 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: I guess it's the reason why I having recurring things 499 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: or patterns or rituals kind of help make it easier, 500 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: because thed you're not kind of thinking about how you 501 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: might accomplish that each time, or making that awkward Thursday call, 502 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, forty different times. Instead you just make it 503 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: once and say we're going to meet every other Thursday. 504 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: Done exactly. I mean, that's always the best answer to everything. 505 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I have every Sunday, I have a zoom 506 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: call with four of my best girlfriends and you know, 507 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: and that's just it's so nice. We don't have to 508 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: like email back and forth and are you free and 509 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: are you like it? It's just you just step right 510 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: into it. And now now ninety nine percent of our 511 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: relationship is just engaging and interacting and lapping. We do 512 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: very little logistics like it's been done. So that's the 513 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: amazing thing about something that's just long standing and ever routine. 514 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: So I have a question. You mentioned that this is 515 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: so important for managers to kind of get people to do, 516 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: but it's it's kind of if you are in a 517 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: managerial position, and I know a lot of our listeners 518 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: are sort of in that point, the workplace relationship thing 519 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: gets a little bit stickier, maybe in a kind of 520 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 1: hierarchical setup. Can it only be friends with people on 521 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: your same level? Like what can you have friendships with 522 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: people who aren't or is people gonna worry you're playing favorites? 523 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean, how can you navigate that? Yeah, that is 524 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,239 Speaker 1: one of my chapters. I am most proud of in 525 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: my book and most I just really have a strong 526 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: stance that if there's anybody in our organizations that should 527 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: be functioning from a place of not loneliness, it's our leaders. 528 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: And I'm really not okay with it's lonely the top philosophy, 529 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: and like, just to keep everyone comfortable, we need to 530 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: make sure that you don't have friends in these relationships. 531 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: I am like, if there's anybody we need feeling connected, 532 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: it's our leaders and our managers. Though we know that 533 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: loneliness reduces our empathy, we know that loneliness reduces our 534 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: ability to dream big. We know that loneliness. I want 535 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: my leader, I want my boss. I want my manager 536 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: like showing up feeling so connected, so believed in and 537 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: so loved and so for me. I really have a 538 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: stance that our leaders should be building friendships. And I 539 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 1: don't think it's realistic that we can say you can 540 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: only do it with people at your level. I mean, 541 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: what if we're at the same level, and then you 542 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: get promoted and now we can't be friends? And then 543 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: what if I get promoted and now we can And 544 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: then I get promoted and now we can't. And I 545 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: was like and I interview one story these two guys 546 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: where it's just that it's like they both worked for 547 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: each other, one went to another company, one was their boss, 548 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean, And I was like, I just love that 549 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: they were able to say, rather than say, let's not 550 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: trust ourselves to be friends and still do our jobs 551 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: with this, let's instead show up and to say, let's 552 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: have the big conversations and trust ourselves to say, so, 553 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: what does our friendship bring to this that we can 554 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, we can do our job better because of 555 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: our friendship? And what are the things we're hesitant around 556 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: and we need to be cautious of and work around? 557 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: And I teach you my whole I have a whole 558 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: chapter where I'm like, here's the conversations we could be having, 559 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: Here's the questions we should be asking. You know now 560 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: that I'm your boss, if there was a situation, God, 561 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: for a bit, I hope not. But what if you're 562 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: not performing? What if I have to tell you that 563 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: you're not doing a great job? How would you want 564 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: me to do that? Like? What would be important? How 565 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: how could we do that in a way where we 566 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: do a good job and our maintain our friendship? I mean, 567 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: have these conversations ahead of time, you know where there's 568 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: no where we don't think it's actually realistic. We will 569 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: learn so much about each other, we'll feel closer bonded, 570 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: and it helps put in our heads this could happen, 571 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: and we are going to we can do it. We 572 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: can show up for that and be mature. So I 573 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: really I didn't talk to a single leader who once 574 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: they started feeling like they were closer to one person 575 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: or had a friendship, that they stopped caring about the team, 576 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: that they stopped caring about their job, that they no 577 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: longer wanted to do a good job. They now wanted 578 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: to show favorites. I mean everybody there, if anything, they 579 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: were trying. So I think they they said they became 580 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: better leaders because they were now saying, I don't want 581 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: anyone to think I'm spending too much time with this 582 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: one person, so now I want to make sure that 583 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm spending a lot of quality time with everybody. I mean, 584 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: I think we can trust that if you're putting somebody 585 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: in a leadership role, trust them. You know, we need 586 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: them connected and we can practice trust and will there 587 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: be a few mistakes, yes, but there's a thousand right 588 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: now from loneliness. So I am all about having the 589 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: awkward conversations and practicing exactly one other question with you 590 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: know you mentioned that earlier talking about how most people 591 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: don't need to meet more people, they need to sort 592 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: of deepen the relationships they have with the people they 593 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: already know. I wonder if you could share, just for 594 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: our listeners, maybe a step or two they could take 595 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: if they have identified a person or two in their 596 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: lives that you know seems cool, Like you see this 597 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: person occasionally, like you'd like to get to know them 598 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: a little bit better, maybe build that into a deeper friendship. 599 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: What sort of steps should they do to make that happen. Yeah, 600 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: I would say, start that post it note and write 601 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: down the names of those people so that you see 602 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: those names, stick them on your computer, and just kind 603 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: of be like, Okay, these are the people I think 604 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: are kind of cool. And then I would kind of 605 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: look at each of those and evaluate them based on 606 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: those three requirements, and I would say, okay, so this 607 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: one I see pretty regularly because every time we drop 608 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: our kids off at school, I see her, da da 609 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: da da, So which one do we really need? And 610 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: we have a good time and we laugh and we 611 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: tell stories, but we don't really know each other. We 612 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: haven't spent enough time to be vulnerable and actually get 613 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: to know each other. So that with this one, I 614 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: need to practice a little bit like how do we 615 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: get to know each other? Maybe we need to have a 616 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: a longer period of times. So maybe the next step 617 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: is saying, hey, next time we drop our kids off 618 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: at school, do you want to go grab a coffee? 619 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: You know? And so it's like strategically thinking through this 620 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: person on my list. I've known her a long time, 621 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: but we only talk a couple times a year. But 622 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: every time we talk, we pick up right where we 623 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: left off. So we've got vulnerability and it feels good. 624 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: I get off the phone happy, but we don't do 625 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: it for another six months. So in this situation, increasing 626 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: the frequency of that, like calling her in three weeks 627 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: instead of waiting five months, would be the thing. And 628 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: so we can kind of look at those names and 629 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: once you understand we have to have all three of 630 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: these things to build a relationship. Once you get that, 631 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: it changes everything because you can look at any person 632 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: and you can say this one's missing positivity. We just 633 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: are We just have not been having fun together. It 634 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: feels heavy. I find myself not wanting to be consistent 635 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: with her or vulnerable with her because it just doesn't 636 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: feel good. What can I do to change the positivity 637 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: ratio here? And so it allows us to start getting 638 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: information that lets us be really specific. So it sucks 639 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: for like podcasts because I can't just give one answer, 640 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: but it helps the rest of us. And to be like, 641 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: this isn't a one size fits all. This is a 642 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: you need to practice consistency, positivity, and vulnerability with these people, 643 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: and you have to do it again and again, and 644 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: you just have to keep doing these three things. And 645 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: I can guarantee you we can put two strangers in 646 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: a room, we can put two people who don't like 647 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: each other in a room, and if we do the 648 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: activities and the questions that facilitate these three things, we 649 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: will bond you. So this is the powerful thing is 650 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: you don't have to leave it up a chance. You 651 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: don't have to say I hope it works. Like you 652 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: can bond with anybody if you do these three things. 653 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: I wonder at what point in your vulnerability you could 654 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 1: admit that you had to post it note with their 655 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: name on it. I think they were living it. I 656 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: did say I invited four girlfriends out to a wine 657 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: bar a couple of years ago, and I did kind 658 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: of say to them, I was like, everybody's moved away. 659 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I have really good friends that I talked 660 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: to you, but you four are the people who are 661 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: local that I am investing in this year. And I 662 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: was like, so consider yourselves warned. I'm coming after you, 663 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: you know. And they just all laughed and loved it, 664 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: and they all like said to me later, like I 665 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: felt so special. I felt so I was so excited. 666 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: And I think we act like it's we're worried about it. 667 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: And I think obviously, if obviously, if you don't know 668 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: the person that well, it might be a little weird. 669 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: But we do want to feel chosen, we all of us. 670 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: The numbers are high. This isn't And I think that's 671 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that lights me up the most 672 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: is we have treated loneliness as a problem, and it's not. 673 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: It's your body telling you you're hungry for connection. It's 674 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: the same way as if you feel hunger. It's not 675 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: a problem that you're hungry. It's a problem if you 676 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: ignore it or deny it or pretend you don't have it. 677 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: It's a problem if you don't have access to food 678 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: or don't have nourishing food. But just being hungry is 679 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: not a problem. So loneliness isn't a problem. It's not 680 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: doing something about it is the problem. That's where the 681 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: damage comes from. So we want to all the emotional 682 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: intelligence would tell us we want to get better at like, oh, 683 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I feel like I wish I were more seen. 684 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: I wish I felt more connected, I wish I felt 685 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: more understood. I want to feel more supported. Okay, what 686 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: is my body? Who should I do that with? And 687 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: how can I get that need met? And it's the 688 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: healthiest among us that will pursue that and do something 689 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: about it. And when you see that sixty one percent 690 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: of us and millennials and gen Z is even higher 691 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: than that are feeling a desire for more connection, it 692 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: says to us most of the people were connecting with 693 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: and seeing out in the world and my workplace and 694 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: the people they're feeling it too. I mean, I'm not 695 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: alone in this, so they will appreciate me reaching out. Awesome, well, shaw, 696 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: So we always end with a love of the week, 697 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: which is something that is really cool in our lives. 698 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: Right now, Sarah and I can go first to give 699 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: you a second to think about it, all right, love it? Yes, 700 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: So mine is our crepe myrtles, which are blooming right now. 701 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: I can look out the window and see them. They 702 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: bloom late summer and are continuing to bloom in September, 703 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: which is when we were recording. And in particular, there 704 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: are two right on the behind my back porch, and 705 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: one is big and tall. The other is finally tall 706 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: enough that we can see from the porch and from 707 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: inside the blossoms it. You know, the old one died 708 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: about six years ago and cut it down to the stump, 709 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: but left one little shoot going up and now it 710 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: is a tree. It's always a reminder that, you know, 711 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: trees do grow and they get bigger. And now I 712 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: enjoy looking at it. So now we all want to 713 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: see it. They've all post a picture. Yeah, there you go. Well. 714 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: Mine on theme with this podcast is the several What's 715 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: Up groups that I am part of. None of them 716 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: are like close friend groups, like one of them is 717 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: my daughter's class, and one of them is my other 718 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: daughter's class, and one of them is now a work 719 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: parenting group, which I feel like could be fodder for 720 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: friends in the future. But they're just like a nice 721 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: way to get conversations started, and I don't find them 722 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: like super addicting, Like I can check in and then 723 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: do something else, and then, like you know, when I 724 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: feel the need for that sort of connection, can check 725 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: back in. So yeah, I think it's a great tool. 726 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: Love it, love it, love it. Yeah, I'll follow that 727 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: theme around. I'm gonna go with Marco Polo the app, 728 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: and I just was on it this morning. It's an 729 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: app where you could just do quick video call quick 730 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: video messages to each other, and so what I love 731 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: about it And I just went on with four girlfriends. 732 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: We have a group going, and it's nice because I 733 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: can just listen to them while I'm making coffee. They 734 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: can do it on their commute, like we can all 735 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: do it whenever it's most convenient to each of us, 736 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: and we can just pop in and have this ongoing conversation. 737 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: And so I feel like I had girlfriend time this morning, 738 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: and it's just because I watched their videos from yesterday 739 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: and last night and left a little video this morning. 740 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: So Marco Polo is helping me feel more connected. That's awesome. Well, shessa, 741 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us and for our listeners. 742 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: Her book is the Business of Friendship, so please be 743 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: sure to check that out. And do you have a 744 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: website people could come visit you at as well. The 745 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: business Friendship dot com is the best one for the 746 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: book and all of the free resources. But Shassonnelson dot 747 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: com is where you can find me with my speaking 748 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: and all of that kind of stuff. And thank you 749 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: so much for having me and for the good work 750 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: both of you are doing in this world, inspiring and 751 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: teaching and just putting good stuff out there. I'm so impressed. Well, 752 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: thank you and thanks for joining me. Well that was great. 753 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: So now we are back with the question portion of 754 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: this episode. I'll start, I'll ask it, and then Sarah 755 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: can answer and we'll go from there. So this listener 756 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: writes in that she'd love to hear more about the 757 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: roles that your parents and in laws play in your lives. 758 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: How close do you live to them, how often do 759 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: you see them, and how has the pandemic affected this. 760 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: I have a two year old and one on the way, 761 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: and we have two busy jobs and live far away 762 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: from both sets of grandparents, and COVID had made this 763 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: harder because there used to be lots of travel, but 764 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: even before we debated moving closer. So, Sarah, what's your 765 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: situation here? Yeah, so we are close to my husband's 766 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: family from a distance perspective. We're about like thirty forty 767 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: minutes away. However, like there are some family health issues 768 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: that have meant that we haven't been able to see 769 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: them since COVID hit, which has been really sad. I 770 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: think maybe the time is starting to turn where we'll 771 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: be ready to at least have us like come by 772 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: for some outdoor stuff. Perhaps. I think having a toddler 773 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: like just makes things a little bit more difficult because 774 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to like imagine scenarios, like I don't know. 775 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: Plus our weather has been unpredictable anyway. I think things 776 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: will get a little bit better down the road. But 777 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: we really haven't seen them in person. We still do 778 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: lots of FaceTime. My parents are far away and we 779 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: have not seen them. We FaceTime with them as well. 780 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: They're also over seventy and being fairly cautious and they 781 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: haven't been ready to like fly down here or anything. 782 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: But they did get to hang out with my sister 783 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: and her daughter, and they just in an abundance of caution, 784 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: they just got tests before they went and then drove 785 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: up and got to hang out for a few days, 786 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: which was was great. I guess I will say, like, 787 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, the the upcoming holiday season is going to 788 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: make me kind of sad, Like there are some Jewish 789 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: holidays where I don't really celebrate the holiday, but I 790 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: really enjoy the family gatherings, and obviously that part's not 791 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: going to be happening in its usual form and that's 792 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: going to be sad. And then like Thanksgiving, like envisioning 793 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: that happening without you know, the big family gatherings I'm 794 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: used to. Anyway, I'm really digressing from this question. I 795 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: guess I would say, Yeah, COVID's changed a lot. I 796 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: think I'm hoping it's temporary, and I really like living 797 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: near family. I think it's really worth doing. Like we 798 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: can't live near all of our familcause they are in 799 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: different places, but I feel like I would inclined to 800 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: live near one or the other unless there was some 801 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: reason that I didn't like those areas or they were 802 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: just not conducive to our jobs. But Josh and I 803 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: are doctor, so we could kind of work in most places. 804 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: So I would think that, you know, on our priority 805 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,479 Speaker 1: list would be being close to family of some kind. Yeah, 806 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: and this person has one kid and another on the way. 807 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: I mean if you have young enough grandparents that they 808 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: are able to help out. I mean just having them 809 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: as backup, Like not that they're going to be your 810 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: primary childcare or anything like that, but you know daycare, 811 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: there can be times you can't send your kid but 812 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: they're not really that sick for instance, you know a 813 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: grandparent might be able to step in for that, or 814 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: if you have to stay late at work for some reason, 815 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: they might be able to go send us sit or home, 816 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: or go pick up your kids at school or daycare 817 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: or something like that. And having that layer of backup 818 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: allows you a lot of flexibility and ability to focus 819 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: that many people either don't have or have to pay 820 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: a lot to get. And so it's an incredible kind 821 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: of subsidy to the two income lifestyle that is amazing 822 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: for people who can pull it off. And that's one 823 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: of the reasons that people do move because it is 824 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: worth it. Uh, you know that you're not paying many, 825 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: many thousands of dollars a year for that extra layer 826 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: of backup that you might need if your parents are 827 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: able to provide that. Now, obviously not all parents can 828 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: do that, and so that's a separate issue, you know. 829 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: But if you can, then then that's great. And the 830 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: more kids you have, the less realistic and probably is. 831 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to watch five children. I let me just 832 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: put that out there. But we've we've been sending, you know, 833 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: one kid at a time to my parents. They moved 834 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: to New Jersey a year and a half ago and 835 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: a year ago roughly, and they will take a kid 836 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: at a time for a special weekend and that's been 837 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: really nice over the past few months for them to 838 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: go have this time with their grandparents, especially when a 839 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: lot of their camps were anseled and things like that, 840 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: that it was something special for the summer. So, you know, 841 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: that's a fun way to incorporate them into your life 842 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: as well. Well. This has been best of both worlds 843 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: talking with Shasta Nelson about the business of friendship and 844 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: we will be back next week with more on making 845 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can 846 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com. Or at 847 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: the Underscore shoebox on Instagram and you can find me 848 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the 849 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,959 Speaker 1: best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time 850 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: for more on making work and life work together