WEBVTT - The Billion Dollar Industry of Esports 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:25.196 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:25.236 --> 0:00:28.476 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.916 --> 0:00:34.516 I'm Noah Feldman Dan Deep Background. Something a little bit different. 0:00:35.116 --> 0:00:39.676 I have been watching very closely the debates about the 0:00:39.756 --> 0:00:44.396 future of virtual reality and augmented reality. Since the beginning 0:00:44.436 --> 0:00:48.036 of COVID, all of us have had to explore making 0:00:48.156 --> 0:00:53.676 human connections, having conversations, learning and engaging with others from 0:00:53.836 --> 0:00:57.476 our desks, staring at our screens in ways we did 0:00:57.476 --> 0:01:02.316 not do previously. That entire process has led me to 0:01:02.356 --> 0:01:07.116 think increasingly about what kinds of human engagement can happen 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:11.076 in virtual space. One direction this might take us, and 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:13.796 I hope to discuss this in a future episode, is 0:01:13.836 --> 0:01:17.436 the question of virtual reality, augmented reality, and the new 0:01:17.556 --> 0:01:20.956 modes and platforms of engagement that will take place in 0:01:20.996 --> 0:01:25.916 our lives. Another is to think about activities that increasingly 0:01:25.956 --> 0:01:28.756 take place not only in the real world but also 0:01:28.836 --> 0:01:33.876 almost exclusively online. Gaming is one such activity. We hear 0:01:33.916 --> 0:01:36.956 a lot about the gamification of trading, a topic that 0:01:36.996 --> 0:01:40.076 we've done an episode on, and about the gamification of 0:01:40.116 --> 0:01:44.516 a wider range of human interactive activities, including coding. But 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:48.796 what about the gamification of gaming itself. What I'm referring 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:52.636 to is the esports industry, in which it turns out 0:01:52.996 --> 0:01:58.156 millions and millions of people watch others playing games, either 0:01:58.236 --> 0:02:02.236 at an extraordinarily high competitive level for rewards and for money, 0:02:02.596 --> 0:02:06.036 or alternatively in an entertainment mode, as gamers who are 0:02:06.076 --> 0:02:10.716 particularly clever or sophisticated or knowledge of stream their own 0:02:10.836 --> 0:02:15.356 games for the edification and entertainment of their fans. This 0:02:15.396 --> 0:02:19.156 is an emergent industry whose participants tend to be young, 0:02:19.596 --> 0:02:22.876 and so perhaps it's not surprising that leading figures in 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:27.436 this industry are young themselves. Case in point, our guests 0:02:27.436 --> 0:02:31.436 today Nicole La Pointe Jamison, who's the CEO of a 0:02:31.516 --> 0:02:36.836 North American esports organization called Evil Geniuses or EG, which 0:02:36.876 --> 0:02:39.276 is one of the oldest and most recognizable brands in 0:02:39.276 --> 0:02:42.636 professional gaming, or so I'm told, going back all the 0:02:42.636 --> 0:02:46.676 way to nineteen ninety nine. Nicole, for her part, barely 0:02:46.716 --> 0:02:49.756 goes back to nineteen ninety nine herself. She was born 0:02:49.796 --> 0:02:53.076 in nineteen ninety four, which makes her an unusual person 0:02:53.316 --> 0:02:57.556 to be running a large and growing organization as a CEO. 0:02:57.796 --> 0:03:00.076 To top it all off, she's a woman at an 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:03.916 African American in an industry that tends to be stereotyped 0:03:03.956 --> 0:03:07.276 as one for men, primarily for white and perhaps for 0:03:07.516 --> 0:03:10.876 Asian men. As you're about to hear, Nicole is an 0:03:10.876 --> 0:03:13.996 extraordinary person, and she sat down with me to explain 0:03:14.076 --> 0:03:23.516 her industry and what she does in it. Nicole, thank 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:26.196 you so much for joining me. This is one of 0:03:26.196 --> 0:03:29.796 those episodes on Deep Background where instead of talking about 0:03:29.836 --> 0:03:33.396 some well fummed area where I and the listeners all 0:03:33.436 --> 0:03:38.316 think we're big experts, were instead exploring a whole field 0:03:38.356 --> 0:03:41.756 of human endeavor that is not actually all that new, 0:03:41.916 --> 0:03:44.956 but is new to many of us as observers, and 0:03:45.036 --> 0:03:49.116 that's esports as an industry and as a concept. So 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:52.036 I wonder if you would start by just assuming that 0:03:52.116 --> 0:03:55.836 we don't understand exactly what esports are, we don't understand 0:03:55.876 --> 0:03:58.276 why it is that other people would want to watch 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:01.676 people playing video games, and begin by just explaining to 0:04:01.756 --> 0:04:04.796 us what this industry is and why we should start 0:04:04.836 --> 0:04:07.236 caring about it. Of course, and first of all, Noah, 0:04:07.236 --> 0:04:10.396 thank you for having me. Always glad to bring others 0:04:10.516 --> 0:04:15.756 on board to the surprisingly vast and deep world of esports. So, 0:04:15.796 --> 0:04:21.476 if you're coming from zero esports is competitive gaming where 0:04:21.476 --> 0:04:24.836 we bridge industries that resemble a lot of traditional sports 0:04:24.876 --> 0:04:28.556 but also resemble modern day entertainment. And so the best 0:04:28.556 --> 0:04:31.956 way to think about my universe I run an esports 0:04:32.036 --> 0:04:35.156 organization called Evil Geniuses, is think of us like the 0:04:35.276 --> 0:04:40.036 University of Michigan, like UM's athletics department, where they have 0:04:40.076 --> 0:04:43.996 basketball and football and soccer that have distinct players on 0:04:44.116 --> 0:04:48.356 distinct schedules, and a very robust back office that bridges 0:04:48.396 --> 0:04:52.876 athletics to sponsorships, to brand, to health and wellness, all 0:04:52.916 --> 0:04:56.356 to support the different players in their seasons. But instead 0:04:56.436 --> 0:04:59.396 of University of Michigan, I am Evil Geniuses, and I 0:04:59.476 --> 0:05:03.876 have Counterstrike and DODA and League of Legends, distinct player 0:05:03.916 --> 0:05:07.836 athletes with distinct schedules, and all of the same back 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:11.596 office needs to support and make sure we are competitively viable, 0:05:11.636 --> 0:05:17.596 financially viable, and culturally viable. And it is often surprising 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:21.356 people to hear the level of play for these athletes. 0:05:21.436 --> 0:05:24.676 Isn't someone that could just mosey on and say, oh, 0:05:24.716 --> 0:05:26.276 you know, I'm pretty good at Mario Kart, Let me 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:29.276 show up one day and be a esports pro. These 0:05:29.276 --> 0:05:32.916 are athletes that have typically been playing at the best 0:05:33.156 --> 0:05:36.156 level that exists in the world from a long time, 0:05:36.196 --> 0:05:38.036 at a young age, and when they come into an 0:05:38.196 --> 0:05:42.396 esports organization, it looks like traditional sports. You have training time, 0:05:42.436 --> 0:05:46.636 you have physical fitness health wellness time, you have scrimming 0:05:46.836 --> 0:05:51.916 and review, and the infrastructure around these athletes and players 0:05:52.156 --> 0:05:55.876 is robust and deep, and we heavily invest in these games. 0:05:55.876 --> 0:05:59.916 And so a lot of this mirrors traditional sports. Where 0:05:59.916 --> 0:06:01.796 I think the analogy falls off, and I don't have 0:06:01.836 --> 0:06:05.196 a really good way to paint that picture yet, is 0:06:05.516 --> 0:06:09.076 we also have what I mentioned earlier, this entertainment side, 0:06:09.156 --> 0:06:13.156 where unlike traditional sports where fans tend to be geo 0:06:13.196 --> 0:06:18.116 affiliated or inherited, we are digital and global. Our players 0:06:18.116 --> 0:06:20.156 come from all over the world. We're not locked into 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:22.836 a region. I'm not even though we're Seattle based, I 0:06:22.836 --> 0:06:26.916 am not the Seattle something. The Seattle eg our fans 0:06:26.956 --> 0:06:30.236 are truly global. So many questions immediately come into my mind. 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:35.196 Let's start with what maybe is a silly question, which 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:39.396 is there's a movement from we all play sports outdoors 0:06:40.076 --> 0:06:43.356 to we watch sports on television. And you know, a 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:47.036 whole generation, an older generation even than mine, was skeptical 0:06:47.076 --> 0:06:49.116 of that saying why don't you go out and play 0:06:49.116 --> 0:06:50.676 the sport? Why do you want to sit at home 0:06:50.716 --> 0:06:53.156 and watch the sport? And now that objection seems hopelessly 0:06:53.556 --> 0:06:56.516 dated because of course as possible to do both, and 0:06:56.956 --> 0:07:01.436 televised sports became a vast multi billion, maybe even trillion 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:04.996 dollar industry over the course of fifty years. Are there 0:07:05.036 --> 0:07:09.316 similar objections? There must be similar objections to esports saying 0:07:09.436 --> 0:07:12.436 that somehow, why are you watching people do something that 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:17.156 they're in fact doing technologically? And is the answer just 0:07:17.236 --> 0:07:19.276 sort of grow up? You know, Like that's the same 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:22.236 objection that people made to watching basketball on television and 0:07:22.396 --> 0:07:24.676 didn't make any sense really, and it makes even less 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:29.276 sense in this context. I actually think the analogy transfers 0:07:29.276 --> 0:07:32.276 really well. Like the beauty of esports, both the athletes 0:07:32.316 --> 0:07:36.236 and the fan is that we're young, digital and very diverse, 0:07:36.716 --> 0:07:41.796 but the altitude of play and competence at the pro level, 0:07:41.836 --> 0:07:46.636 because then these are oftentimes six figure to seven figure 0:07:46.636 --> 0:07:48.876 based salaries of athletes. These aren't the run of a 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:52.076 mill picked up off a street corner players. They are 0:07:52.156 --> 0:07:55.476 the top thirty in the world. So similarly to why 0:07:55.516 --> 0:08:00.076 you want to watch NBA, the depth of prestige and 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:03.356 ability to perform in some of these games is unparalleled, 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:06.876 and so that's exciting to watch. The esports athletes also 0:08:06.956 --> 0:08:10.036 play for the same reasons. They just do it so well. 0:08:10.116 --> 0:08:12.356 The answer is, they just do it so well, and 0:08:12.436 --> 0:08:15.076 the specific skills that they have are some combination of 0:08:15.396 --> 0:08:20.476 hand eye coordination, conceptual ability, strategic ability. It's a full 0:08:20.596 --> 0:08:25.836 range of skills. Presumably yes, probabilistic thinking, quick communication, similar 0:08:25.836 --> 0:08:29.756 to an options trader or a sports athlete. Right, let's 0:08:29.756 --> 0:08:32.356 talk for a second about this non locality that you mentioned. 0:08:32.836 --> 0:08:36.316 So one of the fascinating things about sports, both at 0:08:36.316 --> 0:08:39.356 the university level but also at the professional level, is 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:42.316 that over time it came to be one of the 0:08:42.556 --> 0:08:46.596 leading factors in a lot of countries in unifying people 0:08:46.796 --> 0:08:49.876 within a geographic area. Right. Originally, the reason you had 0:08:49.916 --> 0:08:52.436 local teams is that people had strong local identities, and 0:08:52.516 --> 0:08:54.276 people who were starting teams wanted to make money, and 0:08:54.276 --> 0:08:55.756 they said, well, if we identified the team with a 0:08:55.796 --> 0:08:58.396 place or with a university, then there will be attachment 0:08:58.396 --> 0:09:01.836 to it. But then things flipped and as our identities 0:09:01.876 --> 0:09:05.076 as members of a neighborhood or a region weakened, the 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:08.236 sports teams became the glue that held us together. In 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:11.796 that sense, what your industry is is about cosmopolitanism in 0:09:11.836 --> 0:09:14.036 the deepest sense, right. It's about a world where we 0:09:14.156 --> 0:09:16.636 no longer think, oh, I'm from New England, so I'm 0:09:16.636 --> 0:09:19.076 a member of Red Sox Nation by default, or you know, 0:09:19.356 --> 0:09:21.756 I have to be a Patriots fan and there's nothing 0:09:21.796 --> 0:09:23.316 I can do about that because I was born that way. 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:25.996 It's like my religion in your world. I can pick 0:09:26.036 --> 0:09:29.676 and choose my affiliations no matter where they are in 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:33.196 the world. So how do people choose whom they're going 0:09:33.236 --> 0:09:37.116 to root for and root against? I love this question 0:09:37.196 --> 0:09:40.956 because it's surprisingly contentious in the space, especially when talking 0:09:40.956 --> 0:09:44.516 to people that come from traditional sports into the esports area. 0:09:44.636 --> 0:09:48.676 Is the lack of geo affiliation is puzzling, but I 0:09:49.436 --> 0:09:51.316 find it exciting for us because we have a bigger 0:09:51.356 --> 0:09:54.476 pie to play from. And that's again where the entertainment 0:09:54.836 --> 0:09:58.396 sprinkle comes in. More like WWE than even you know, 0:09:58.436 --> 0:10:02.036 the Lakers or the Yankees. The brand identity of the 0:10:02.116 --> 0:10:06.556 organization matters, and how an organization presents itself beyond just 0:10:06.836 --> 0:10:09.716 what games they compete in, because not every sport team 0:10:09.836 --> 0:10:13.396 or organization plays the same games, So there's some fan 0:10:13.516 --> 0:10:16.436 stratification by what game are they in. If you're a 0:10:16.516 --> 0:10:19.436 Rocket League fan, you tend to not be a fan 0:10:19.596 --> 0:10:22.636 of League of Legends per se. And then it's how 0:10:22.636 --> 0:10:24.716 does the org represent themselves and some of that, just 0:10:24.756 --> 0:10:27.596 like in traditional sports, is a win loss ratio. People 0:10:27.636 --> 0:10:29.436 like to follow the winners or they like to follow 0:10:29.476 --> 0:10:33.316 the underdogs, So there's that bimodal distribution. But then how 0:10:33.396 --> 0:10:36.356 do we and how do organizations represent themselves in the 0:10:36.436 --> 0:10:39.516 culture and engage with fans in unique ways. That's the 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:43.596 big why for creating a compelling esports organization with a 0:10:43.716 --> 0:10:46.796 distinct set of fandom. One of the things that stunned 0:10:46.836 --> 0:10:50.036 me and preparing for our conversation was just the size 0:10:50.036 --> 0:10:52.716 of the industry. If someone had asked me to guess, 0:10:52.716 --> 0:10:56.196 I would have been off by orders of magnitude. Yes, 0:10:56.276 --> 0:11:00.436 it is a huge industry, whatever way you slice the pie. 0:11:00.556 --> 0:11:05.756 If it's active viewers on different distribution platforms, because you 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:08.716 can watch esports in a variety of ways, especially if 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:12.396 you have an Internet connection. If you count gamers as 0:11:12.476 --> 0:11:16.716 part of the esports industry, people who game, there's more 0:11:16.756 --> 0:11:19.116 of those than people who don't game, especially under the 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:22.236 age of thirty, and if you consider the global reach, 0:11:22.396 --> 0:11:26.796 especially in the APAC region, the millions of concurrent viewers 0:11:26.796 --> 0:11:28.436 you could have at a time in a day is 0:11:28.876 --> 0:11:33.436 unparalleled to many other traditional sports. We can sometimes reach 0:11:33.516 --> 0:11:36.836 on our peak seasons on social media more viewers in 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:39.076 a day than certain hockey teams get in a season. 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:44.156 And though the fandom the eyeballs are large, what I 0:11:44.196 --> 0:11:47.436 find more as a businessperson compelling and exciting is the 0:11:47.636 --> 0:11:51.356 dollars are starting to pace and grow to reflect a 0:11:51.356 --> 0:11:55.436 lot of the magnitude of sponsorship and spend in traditional sports. 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:59.196 In the esports space, as people start to understand the 0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:01.836 true volume of fans that are hard to advertise, too 0:12:01.876 --> 0:12:04.796 hard to reach organically in other ways, and where they 0:12:04.796 --> 0:12:09.756 are and who they watch. Finding brands, finding distribution platforms, 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:13.076 and even finding linear distribution platforms like TV try to 0:12:13.116 --> 0:12:15.796 reach and understand how can they have E sports showcased 0:12:15.956 --> 0:12:19.156 is unbelievable, and so I believe there's a new Zoo 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:21.916 study out that shows E sports industries valued a little 0:12:21.996 --> 0:12:24.836 less than a billion targeted for next year in terms 0:12:24.836 --> 0:12:27.876 of spend and revenue in the space. So it's it's 0:12:27.876 --> 0:12:31.956 exciting how quickly. It's growing. From even five ten years ago, 0:12:32.036 --> 0:12:35.516 it was relatively grassroots and not well established or defined. 0:12:36.836 --> 0:12:51.116 We'll be right back Nicole. Your Wikipedia entry, assuming that 0:12:51.156 --> 0:12:55.116 it's accurate, has you as twenty seven years old. Is 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:59.436 that true? First of all, it is true. So how 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:03.356 does a twenty seven year old end up as CEO 0:13:03.716 --> 0:13:07.916 of a major company in this developing space? A lot 0:13:07.996 --> 0:13:10.556 of stumbling up. It can't have been that much. There's 0:13:10.716 --> 0:13:13.876 that's not enough time. So I have a very nonlinear 0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:16.276 path into esports, and I would say my age is 0:13:16.316 --> 0:13:20.836 maybe surprising for the space, but not completely unprecedented, as 0:13:21.436 --> 0:13:26.716 historically leaders and esports either were in esports veterans for 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:29.156 a while, who typically were players and kind of worked 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:32.196 their way up, or traditional sports executives who were plopped in. 0:13:32.716 --> 0:13:35.356 That's changed a bit. Prior to this, I actually worked 0:13:35.396 --> 0:13:40.116 for an investment firm in Chicago. I focused on distressed 0:13:40.116 --> 0:13:44.116 asset turnarounds, which is maybe not a great signal for 0:13:44.156 --> 0:13:47.436 those that are more financially savvy understanding my entry into esports, 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:50.716 but EG came to me actually as an investment opportunity. 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:53.396 I was all jazzed for a board seat, but at 0:13:53.436 --> 0:13:57.476 the time the company resembled a distressed asset or a 0:13:57.516 --> 0:13:59.996 true startup. That being said that, what was interesting about 0:13:59.996 --> 0:14:02.156 EG is, despite me coming in a little less than 0:14:02.196 --> 0:14:04.916 three years ago, it had been a brand that it 0:14:05.076 --> 0:14:07.476 is actually one of the oldest esports organizations in the world. 0:14:07.716 --> 0:14:10.716 And that's not super interest in general, but I would 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:14.276 say it's quite insightful for EG and that to exist 0:14:14.356 --> 0:14:19.036 from nineteen ninety nine as a then niche gaming club 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:22.396 and survive and bring in sponsorships and keep your brand 0:14:23.396 --> 0:14:26.196 and build and grow and build that long term fandom 0:14:26.476 --> 0:14:30.436 and survive tech changes, game changes, and still say culturally 0:14:30.476 --> 0:14:35.316 relevant was exciting. So from an investment conversion into operating position, 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:37.636 it wasn't that different from things I had done before, 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:41.596 but definitely the coolest operating company I've been able to 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:44.596 get my hands on in my history of ensure tech 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:49.756 and SaaS businesses and hardware technology. But I've always loved 0:14:49.796 --> 0:14:52.516 gaming from a personal passion point, so I understood the space. 0:14:52.556 --> 0:14:55.036 I was familiar with the space, and I was excited 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:58.396 to help carve out what ought to be in esports 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:02.316 as I wasn't seeing voices or perspectives like mine and 0:15:02.636 --> 0:15:08.036 our firm represented in this space. So I'm wondering whether 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:10.916 the sort of stereotypical picture of the industry, which may 0:15:10.956 --> 0:15:15.716 not be accurate as heavily male, heavily white, and Asian, 0:15:16.396 --> 0:15:18.356 as an African American woman, is that a plus for 0:15:18.396 --> 0:15:20.476 you that you come in and say, hey, I have 0:15:20.476 --> 0:15:23.876 a different perspective, or is it altogether irrelevant in an 0:15:23.956 --> 0:15:28.116 enterprise that ultimately is about avatars on screens much more 0:15:28.156 --> 0:15:30.436 than it's about who you are on the other side 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:33.836 of the console. It was a bit of an interesting 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:38.196 challenge more from a personal perspective, as I think you 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:41.956 were quite polite with it. Gaming has stereotypes of who 0:15:42.036 --> 0:15:43.796 is a gamer and what do they act like that 0:15:43.916 --> 0:15:48.156 are not good? Are not positive? Rife with toxicity and 0:15:49.036 --> 0:15:53.836 juvenile behavior, to call it nicely, and coming into a 0:15:53.876 --> 0:15:58.476 space where I was different industry background, different in how 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:01.156 I appeared. I was a newcomer into a relatively gate 0:16:01.276 --> 0:16:04.916 kept community of who's any esports and who's not, had 0:16:05.156 --> 0:16:08.396 personal and professional challenges. But I think that actually has 0:16:08.436 --> 0:16:12.796 becomes war cry and how we have been able to 0:16:12.836 --> 0:16:16.316 thrive in the past two years and differentiate our brand 0:16:16.796 --> 0:16:21.516 and I can't underline that it can't undermine really that 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:25.396 it was easy, because it wasn't. It's truly carving a 0:16:25.476 --> 0:16:28.916 path that hadn't been carved. And the anonymity of the 0:16:28.956 --> 0:16:33.076 Internet can be difficult to navigate as people love to 0:16:33.396 --> 0:16:36.316 use that to their advantage to be toxic. But like 0:16:36.516 --> 0:16:39.556 tends to attract like, and I've been able to I'm 0:16:39.596 --> 0:16:42.876 lucky that I've had mentorship and leadership, a strong advisory board, 0:16:43.276 --> 0:16:46.596 and friends in the space that are excited and compelled 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:48.916 by why and what we do to make sure the 0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:53.236 space is safer. So, Nicole, when you talk about toxicity, 0:16:53.556 --> 0:16:59.756 is toxicity an existential threat to the esports industry or 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:05.636 to the gaming industry? And alternatively, is the perception of 0:17:05.676 --> 0:17:10.036 toxicity also a kind of existential threats separate from the 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:13.636 underlying reality. Oh I love that you've broken it up 0:17:13.676 --> 0:17:16.596 into two. So for the former, there is a threat 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:19.156 of toxicity because just like how people tend to make 0:17:19.196 --> 0:17:21.876 bad decisions in group think, people tend to make bad 0:17:21.916 --> 0:17:26.556 decisions under the cover of anonymity. And we actually we 0:17:26.596 --> 0:17:28.316 did a study on this. We partnered with you gov, 0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:32.676 a data and survey company, and looked to understand toxic 0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:36.156 behaviors and we found that a lot in gaming, whether 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:41.516 it's through harassment or rude language, etc. Is learned doesn't 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:45.436 appear until later in life. But if you know, if 0:17:45.516 --> 0:17:48.236 parents don't understand what their kids are doing, if there's 0:17:48.276 --> 0:17:50.676 no checks and balances either by the game in the 0:17:50.716 --> 0:17:56.236 system itself, that perpetuates and becomes an acceptable standard, which 0:17:56.276 --> 0:17:59.276 really isn't acceptable. You can't act like you might in 0:17:59.276 --> 0:18:01.956 a Call of duty game in the workplace or in 0:18:01.996 --> 0:18:07.276 a group project in college. And that needs to be addressed. 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:09.676 And there's a lot of moving pieces in terms of 0:18:09.716 --> 0:18:13.756 who is the address of this problem. Is it parents, 0:18:13.916 --> 0:18:17.476 is it developers, is it the content creators? But it's 0:18:17.516 --> 0:18:21.476 something that creates tangible and what we found in our 0:18:21.516 --> 0:18:25.516 study is we actually it does create tangible negative results 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:28.116 and that people either don't want to, for example, have 0:18:28.196 --> 0:18:31.396 their mic on in game and talk, which impedes communication 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:34.636 for certain games and impedes results, which for me from 0:18:34.676 --> 0:18:38.556 a team side, impedes potential future talent from developing and 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:41.316 coming into the pipeline. So we care about this because 0:18:41.316 --> 0:18:44.716 it has long term material impacts into who is represented 0:18:44.956 --> 0:18:48.316 in the space, especially if toxicity is aimed at certain 0:18:48.356 --> 0:18:53.356 groups or demographics of people. The perception of toxicity. However, 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:56.796 is also damaging because in a lot of spaces this 0:18:56.956 --> 0:19:01.476 has gotten much better. I would say gaming is probably 0:19:01.516 --> 0:19:04.116 more inclusive now than it even was five years ago. 0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:07.196 Is people are becoming aware and understand that what is 0:19:07.196 --> 0:19:13.236 culturally accepted as shifting, but the negative, sometimes misunderstanding of 0:19:13.276 --> 0:19:19.316 what the gaming industry represents hurts us from becoming mainstream, 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:23.596 financially viable and supported. If someone is like, oh, gaming's bad, 0:19:23.596 --> 0:19:25.476 I'm not even going to listen to what these people 0:19:25.556 --> 0:19:28.356 have to say. That closes off the potential for both 0:19:28.476 --> 0:19:31.156 us to develop and grow, but that person from developing 0:19:31.156 --> 0:19:34.796 and growing, and whether that person is potential parent of 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:37.956 a talent that we'd want to recruit, a sponsorship partner, 0:19:38.356 --> 0:19:41.476 a university that is trying to understand if esports curriculum 0:19:41.516 --> 0:19:45.236 should be supported, and so breaking down both the perception 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:47.796 and the reality is something that we try to take 0:19:47.836 --> 0:19:50.876 a decent stab at as it relates to our wheelhouse 0:19:50.876 --> 0:19:54.916 and our expertise, but is a multifaceted problem that I'm 0:19:54.996 --> 0:19:57.516 hopeful more and more people as we continue to talk about, 0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:00.876 address and try to tackle and solve in their own way, 0:20:00.916 --> 0:20:04.836 because what we have found is again the learned behavior 0:20:05.116 --> 0:20:08.716 not inherent. I've been very influenced by writing by a 0:20:08.716 --> 0:20:11.196 scholar at Dartmouth called Will Chang, who's actually in the 0:20:11.276 --> 0:20:13.356 music department. Believe it or not, but he wrote a 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:16.276 book called sound Play, one of his great books, which 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:20.836 is specifically about the use of sound in major online 0:20:20.876 --> 0:20:25.076 gaming platforms and experiences. And as part of that account, 0:20:25.316 --> 0:20:29.516 he also talks about the whole range of behaviors, whether 0:20:29.556 --> 0:20:33.876 they're supportive or abusive, that come an association with difference 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:38.796 with gender, with sexuality, with disability status in the online space. 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:41.516 And one of the things that emerges from his work, 0:20:41.556 --> 0:20:45.116 and I'm oversimplifying it a little bit just for our purposes, 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:48.236 is that there's both a lot of the toxicity you're 0:20:48.276 --> 0:20:52.996 talking about and a lot of tools for capturing and 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:57.876 pushing back at that toxicity and reshaping and reforming it. 0:20:58.236 --> 0:21:00.156 And I wonder, when you think about that from the 0:21:00.196 --> 0:21:05.796 standpoint of esports teams and franchises, what are the strategies 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:07.636 that are available to you to say, we're going to 0:21:07.676 --> 0:21:11.716 make sure that our organized and our teams are contributing 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:15.196 in the positive way to this stuff rather than to 0:21:15.276 --> 0:21:17.676 the negative. How do you make those two things work together. 0:21:19.076 --> 0:21:23.676 It's been interesting for us as I've been a pretty 0:21:23.716 --> 0:21:26.436 big stickler, and so I can give good examples of 0:21:26.796 --> 0:21:29.916 how One of the problems we faced is finding good 0:21:29.956 --> 0:21:33.836 talent that want to come into esports because I need 0:21:33.876 --> 0:21:37.196 a head of finance. It's really hard to convince the 0:21:37.236 --> 0:21:39.956 forty five year old controller at EUY to come on 0:21:40.076 --> 0:21:42.396 over to an esports organization that I've never heard of 0:21:42.436 --> 0:21:44.436 the space. They don't really understand it. And when you 0:21:44.516 --> 0:21:48.636 google gaming and esports, not wonderful things came up about 0:21:48.676 --> 0:21:52.276 the stability, the perception inclusion, and so we've been tackling 0:21:52.316 --> 0:21:54.116 this through a couple of different ways, some of that 0:21:54.156 --> 0:21:57.756 are less sexy than others, but maybe forever all the 0:21:57.836 --> 0:22:00.676 listeners rolling their eyes. But the first thing we pushed 0:22:00.756 --> 0:22:04.196 was really a suite of back office benefits and support 0:22:04.276 --> 0:22:06.436 that emulate what you would find at a lot of 0:22:06.436 --> 0:22:10.876 our local peers in Seattle. Benefits, maternity leave, paternity leave, 0:22:11.476 --> 0:22:14.636 full suite of healthcare, a lot of the mental wellness 0:22:14.636 --> 0:22:18.916 and physical wellness support first of its kind in esports. 0:22:18.916 --> 0:22:22.196 And people were surprised, why are you spending on this 0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:24.716 esports as sexy? There's so much young people that want 0:22:24.716 --> 0:22:27.676 to come in. But if I can't attract the full 0:22:27.756 --> 0:22:31.956 multigenerational audience of experience workers, I've already failed in inclusivity 0:22:32.116 --> 0:22:35.156 and that hurts our bottom line results. So there's a 0:22:35.196 --> 0:22:38.156 lot of programming we put there to ensure we were 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:43.276 getting a wide net of talent. On the competitive side, though, 0:22:44.876 --> 0:22:48.196 the esports space has been plagued despite being digitally native, 0:22:48.516 --> 0:22:51.676 plagued by lack of good data use in scouting. It's 0:22:51.676 --> 0:22:53.596 a lot of who you know who the coach knows, 0:22:53.916 --> 0:22:57.636 which becomes an incestuous, self fulfilling pool of the same 0:22:58.116 --> 0:23:02.596 fifty people are becoming pro players, which is crazy because 0:23:02.636 --> 0:23:06.316 we have such opportunity for talent elsewhere, and so we 0:23:06.556 --> 0:23:08.356 are claimed to fame, especially in one of our games, 0:23:08.436 --> 0:23:11.156 League of Legends, was we've been using data and analytics 0:23:11.236 --> 0:23:16.116 to scout and recruit unknown quantities unknown talent and bring 0:23:16.316 --> 0:23:20.156 in and develop up over time talent that we wouldn't 0:23:20.156 --> 0:23:23.036 have found otherwise because they weren't already in network. That 0:23:23.196 --> 0:23:25.796 also led that same method led to us being able 0:23:25.836 --> 0:23:29.276 to start one of the only mixed gender rosters in esports. 0:23:29.276 --> 0:23:32.276 So between the back office infrastructure, the empirical methods for 0:23:32.316 --> 0:23:37.316 scouting and then of course showcasing where we have wins. 0:23:37.356 --> 0:23:39.636 In the education space, we do a lot of K 0:23:39.796 --> 0:23:44.276 through twelve programming, do a lot of university partnership around curriculum, 0:23:44.676 --> 0:23:48.476 anti toxicity, anti bullying, how to create a good personal 0:23:48.556 --> 0:23:51.436 brand for yourself on social media. If the gaming or 0:23:51.556 --> 0:23:55.436 entertainment space is important, that investment of time and labor, 0:23:55.676 --> 0:23:58.996 which is authentic to ourselves but also helps us build 0:23:59.076 --> 0:24:02.676 long term returns in people that think positively about what 0:24:02.756 --> 0:24:06.156 we've done in the space, is critically important. So it's interesting. 0:24:06.236 --> 0:24:11.356 One weird nuance with esports that is cult is unlike 0:24:11.996 --> 0:24:13.876 an NBA team, like you know the game you're going 0:24:13.956 --> 0:24:16.276 to play, the game is there forever, like basketball is 0:24:16.276 --> 0:24:17.956 probably not going to go anywhere, and you kind of 0:24:17.956 --> 0:24:20.116 know the rules aren't going to all of a sudden change. 0:24:20.996 --> 0:24:24.716 We in esports are beholden to a series of developers. 0:24:25.316 --> 0:24:27.996 Riot does not act like Valve, does not act like Epic, 0:24:28.036 --> 0:24:31.476 and they can do whatever they kind of want. Some 0:24:31.556 --> 0:24:33.716 of that gives us perks. We own more ip We 0:24:33.756 --> 0:24:36.636