1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:25,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:25,236 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,916 --> 00:00:34,516 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman Dan Deep Background. Something a little bit different. 4 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:39,676 Speaker 1: I have been watching very closely the debates about the 5 00:00:39,756 --> 00:00:44,396 Speaker 1: future of virtual reality and augmented reality. Since the beginning 6 00:00:44,436 --> 00:00:48,036 Speaker 1: of COVID, all of us have had to explore making 7 00:00:48,156 --> 00:00:53,676 Speaker 1: human connections, having conversations, learning and engaging with others from 8 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: our desks, staring at our screens in ways we did 9 00:00:57,476 --> 00:01:02,316 Speaker 1: not do previously. That entire process has led me to 10 00:01:02,356 --> 00:01:07,116 Speaker 1: think increasingly about what kinds of human engagement can happen 11 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:11,076 Speaker 1: in virtual space. One direction this might take us, and 12 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:13,796 Speaker 1: I hope to discuss this in a future episode, is 13 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:17,436 Speaker 1: the question of virtual reality, augmented reality, and the new 14 00:01:17,556 --> 00:01:20,956 Speaker 1: modes and platforms of engagement that will take place in 15 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: our lives. Another is to think about activities that increasingly 16 00:01:25,956 --> 00:01:28,756 Speaker 1: take place not only in the real world but also 17 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 1: almost exclusively online. Gaming is one such activity. We hear 18 00:01:33,916 --> 00:01:36,956 Speaker 1: a lot about the gamification of trading, a topic that 19 00:01:36,996 --> 00:01:40,076 Speaker 1: we've done an episode on, and about the gamification of 20 00:01:40,116 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 1: a wider range of human interactive activities, including coding. But 21 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:48,796 Speaker 1: what about the gamification of gaming itself. What I'm referring 22 00:01:48,836 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 1: to is the esports industry, in which it turns out 23 00:01:52,996 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 1: millions and millions of people watch others playing games, either 24 00:01:58,236 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: at an extraordinarily high competitive level for rewards and for money, 25 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:06,036 Speaker 1: or alternatively in an entertainment mode, as gamers who are 26 00:02:06,076 --> 00:02:10,716 Speaker 1: particularly clever or sophisticated or knowledge of stream their own 27 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:15,356 Speaker 1: games for the edification and entertainment of their fans. This 28 00:02:15,396 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 1: is an emergent industry whose participants tend to be young, 29 00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: and so perhaps it's not surprising that leading figures in 30 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:27,436 Speaker 1: this industry are young themselves. Case in point, our guests 31 00:02:27,436 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 1: today Nicole La Pointe Jamison, who's the CEO of a 32 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 1: North American esports organization called Evil Geniuses or EG, which 33 00:02:36,876 --> 00:02:39,276 Speaker 1: is one of the oldest and most recognizable brands in 34 00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:42,636 Speaker 1: professional gaming, or so I'm told, going back all the 35 00:02:42,636 --> 00:02:46,676 Speaker 1: way to nineteen ninety nine. Nicole, for her part, barely 36 00:02:46,716 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: goes back to nineteen ninety nine herself. She was born 37 00:02:49,796 --> 00:02:53,076 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, which makes her an unusual person 38 00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 1: to be running a large and growing organization as a CEO. 39 00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:00,076 Speaker 1: To top it all off, she's a woman at an 40 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 1: African American in an industry that tends to be stereotyped 41 00:03:03,956 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: as one for men, primarily for white and perhaps for 42 00:03:07,516 --> 00:03:10,876 Speaker 1: Asian men. As you're about to hear, Nicole is an 43 00:03:10,876 --> 00:03:13,996 Speaker 1: extraordinary person, and she sat down with me to explain 44 00:03:14,076 --> 00:03:23,516 Speaker 1: her industry and what she does in it. Nicole, thank 45 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me. This is one of 46 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:29,796 Speaker 1: those episodes on Deep Background where instead of talking about 47 00:03:29,836 --> 00:03:33,396 Speaker 1: some well fummed area where I and the listeners all 48 00:03:33,436 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: think we're big experts, were instead exploring a whole field 49 00:03:38,356 --> 00:03:41,756 Speaker 1: of human endeavor that is not actually all that new, 50 00:03:41,916 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: but is new to many of us as observers, and 51 00:03:45,036 --> 00:03:49,116 Speaker 1: that's esports as an industry and as a concept. So 52 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:52,036 Speaker 1: I wonder if you would start by just assuming that 53 00:03:52,116 --> 00:03:55,836 Speaker 1: we don't understand exactly what esports are, we don't understand 54 00:03:55,876 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: why it is that other people would want to watch 55 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: people playing video games, and begin by just explaining to 56 00:04:01,756 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 1: us what this industry is and why we should start 57 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:07,236 Speaker 1: caring about it. Of course, and first of all, Noah, 58 00:04:07,236 --> 00:04:10,396 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Always glad to bring others 59 00:04:10,516 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: on board to the surprisingly vast and deep world of esports. So, 60 00:04:15,796 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 1: if you're coming from zero esports is competitive gaming where 61 00:04:21,476 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 1: we bridge industries that resemble a lot of traditional sports 62 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:28,556 Speaker 1: but also resemble modern day entertainment. And so the best 63 00:04:28,556 --> 00:04:31,956 Speaker 1: way to think about my universe I run an esports 64 00:04:32,036 --> 00:04:35,156 Speaker 1: organization called Evil Geniuses, is think of us like the 65 00:04:35,276 --> 00:04:40,036 Speaker 1: University of Michigan, like UM's athletics department, where they have 66 00:04:40,076 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 1: basketball and football and soccer that have distinct players on 67 00:04:44,116 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: distinct schedules, and a very robust back office that bridges 68 00:04:48,396 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 1: athletics to sponsorships, to brand, to health and wellness, all 69 00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 1: to support the different players in their seasons. But instead 70 00:04:56,436 --> 00:04:59,396 Speaker 1: of University of Michigan, I am Evil Geniuses, and I 71 00:04:59,476 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 1: have Counterstrike and DODA and League of Legends, distinct player 72 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:07,836 Speaker 1: athletes with distinct schedules, and all of the same back 73 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 1: office needs to support and make sure we are competitively viable, 74 00:05:11,636 --> 00:05:17,596 Speaker 1: financially viable, and culturally viable. And it is often surprising 75 00:05:17,596 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 1: people to hear the level of play for these athletes. 76 00:05:21,436 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 1: Isn't someone that could just mosey on and say, oh, 77 00:05:24,716 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 1: you know, I'm pretty good at Mario Kart, Let me 78 00:05:26,276 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: show up one day and be a esports pro. These 79 00:05:29,276 --> 00:05:32,916 Speaker 1: are athletes that have typically been playing at the best 80 00:05:33,156 --> 00:05:36,156 Speaker 1: level that exists in the world from a long time, 81 00:05:36,196 --> 00:05:38,036 Speaker 1: at a young age, and when they come into an 82 00:05:38,196 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 1: esports organization, it looks like traditional sports. You have training time, 83 00:05:42,436 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 1: you have physical fitness health wellness time, you have scrimming 84 00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:51,916 Speaker 1: and review, and the infrastructure around these athletes and players 85 00:05:52,156 --> 00:05:55,876 Speaker 1: is robust and deep, and we heavily invest in these games. 86 00:05:55,876 --> 00:05:59,916 Speaker 1: And so a lot of this mirrors traditional sports. Where 87 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:01,796 Speaker 1: I think the analogy falls off, and I don't have 88 00:06:01,836 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 1: a really good way to paint that picture yet, is 89 00:06:05,516 --> 00:06:09,076 Speaker 1: we also have what I mentioned earlier, this entertainment side, 90 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 1: where unlike traditional sports where fans tend to be geo 91 00:06:13,196 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 1: affiliated or inherited, we are digital and global. Our players 92 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:20,156 Speaker 1: come from all over the world. We're not locked into 93 00:06:20,196 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 1: a region. I'm not even though we're Seattle based, I 94 00:06:22,836 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 1: am not the Seattle something. The Seattle eg our fans 95 00:06:26,956 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 1: are truly global. So many questions immediately come into my mind. 96 00:06:31,116 --> 00:06:35,196 Speaker 1: Let's start with what maybe is a silly question, which 97 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:39,396 Speaker 1: is there's a movement from we all play sports outdoors 98 00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 1: to we watch sports on television. And you know, a 99 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: whole generation, an older generation even than mine, was skeptical 100 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:49,116 Speaker 1: of that saying why don't you go out and play 101 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:50,676 Speaker 1: the sport? Why do you want to sit at home 102 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:53,156 Speaker 1: and watch the sport? And now that objection seems hopelessly 103 00:06:53,556 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 1: dated because of course as possible to do both, and 104 00:06:56,956 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: televised sports became a vast multi billion, maybe even trillion 105 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 1: dollar industry over the course of fifty years. Are there 106 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:09,316 Speaker 1: similar objections? There must be similar objections to esports saying 107 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 1: that somehow, why are you watching people do something that 108 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:17,156 Speaker 1: they're in fact doing technologically? And is the answer just 109 00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:19,276 Speaker 1: sort of grow up? You know, Like that's the same 110 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 1: objection that people made to watching basketball on television and 111 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:24,676 Speaker 1: didn't make any sense really, and it makes even less 112 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:29,276 Speaker 1: sense in this context. I actually think the analogy transfers 113 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 1: really well. Like the beauty of esports, both the athletes 114 00:07:32,316 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 1: and the fan is that we're young, digital and very diverse, 115 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 1: but the altitude of play and competence at the pro level, 116 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:46,636 Speaker 1: because then these are oftentimes six figure to seven figure 117 00:07:46,636 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 1: based salaries of athletes. These aren't the run of a 118 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:52,076 Speaker 1: mill picked up off a street corner players. They are 119 00:07:52,156 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 1: the top thirty in the world. So similarly to why 120 00:07:55,516 --> 00:08:00,076 Speaker 1: you want to watch NBA, the depth of prestige and 121 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 1: ability to perform in some of these games is unparalleled, 122 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:06,876 Speaker 1: and so that's exciting to watch. The esports athletes also 123 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:10,036 Speaker 1: play for the same reasons. They just do it so well. 124 00:08:10,116 --> 00:08:12,356 Speaker 1: The answer is, they just do it so well, and 125 00:08:12,436 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 1: the specific skills that they have are some combination of 126 00:08:15,396 --> 00:08:20,476 Speaker 1: hand eye coordination, conceptual ability, strategic ability. It's a full 127 00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:25,836 Speaker 1: range of skills. Presumably yes, probabilistic thinking, quick communication, similar 128 00:08:25,836 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 1: to an options trader or a sports athlete. Right, let's 129 00:08:29,756 --> 00:08:32,356 Speaker 1: talk for a second about this non locality that you mentioned. 130 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:36,316 Speaker 1: So one of the fascinating things about sports, both at 131 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:39,356 Speaker 1: the university level but also at the professional level, is 132 00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:42,316 Speaker 1: that over time it came to be one of the 133 00:08:42,556 --> 00:08:46,596 Speaker 1: leading factors in a lot of countries in unifying people 134 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 1: within a geographic area. Right. Originally, the reason you had 135 00:08:49,916 --> 00:08:52,436 Speaker 1: local teams is that people had strong local identities, and 136 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 1: people who were starting teams wanted to make money, and 137 00:08:54,276 --> 00:08:55,756 Speaker 1: they said, well, if we identified the team with a 138 00:08:55,796 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 1: place or with a university, then there will be attachment 139 00:08:58,396 --> 00:09:01,836 Speaker 1: to it. But then things flipped and as our identities 140 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 1: as members of a neighborhood or a region weakened, the 141 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:08,236 Speaker 1: sports teams became the glue that held us together. In 142 00:09:08,236 --> 00:09:11,796 Speaker 1: that sense, what your industry is is about cosmopolitanism in 143 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:14,036 Speaker 1: the deepest sense, right. It's about a world where we 144 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: no longer think, oh, I'm from New England, so I'm 145 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 1: a member of Red Sox Nation by default, or you know, 146 00:09:19,356 --> 00:09:21,756 Speaker 1: I have to be a Patriots fan and there's nothing 147 00:09:21,796 --> 00:09:23,316 Speaker 1: I can do about that because I was born that way. 148 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:25,996 Speaker 1: It's like my religion in your world. I can pick 149 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:29,676 Speaker 1: and choose my affiliations no matter where they are in 150 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 1: the world. So how do people choose whom they're going 151 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:37,116 Speaker 1: to root for and root against? I love this question 152 00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:40,956 Speaker 1: because it's surprisingly contentious in the space, especially when talking 153 00:09:40,956 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 1: to people that come from traditional sports into the esports area. 154 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:48,676 Speaker 1: Is the lack of geo affiliation is puzzling, but I 155 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: find it exciting for us because we have a bigger 156 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:54,476 Speaker 1: pie to play from. And that's again where the entertainment 157 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 1: sprinkle comes in. More like WWE than even you know, 158 00:09:58,436 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: the Lakers or the Yankees. The brand identity of the 159 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:06,556 Speaker 1: organization matters, and how an organization presents itself beyond just 160 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: what games they compete in, because not every sport team 161 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:13,396 Speaker 1: or organization plays the same games, So there's some fan 162 00:10:13,516 --> 00:10:16,436 Speaker 1: stratification by what game are they in. If you're a 163 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 1: Rocket League fan, you tend to not be a fan 164 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:22,636 Speaker 1: of League of Legends per se. And then it's how 165 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:24,716 Speaker 1: does the org represent themselves and some of that, just 166 00:10:24,756 --> 00:10:27,596 Speaker 1: like in traditional sports, is a win loss ratio. People 167 00:10:27,636 --> 00:10:29,436 Speaker 1: like to follow the winners or they like to follow 168 00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 1: the underdogs, So there's that bimodal distribution. But then how 169 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:36,356 Speaker 1: do we and how do organizations represent themselves in the 170 00:10:36,436 --> 00:10:39,516 Speaker 1: culture and engage with fans in unique ways. That's the 171 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 1: big why for creating a compelling esports organization with a 172 00:10:43,716 --> 00:10:46,796 Speaker 1: distinct set of fandom. One of the things that stunned 173 00:10:46,836 --> 00:10:50,036 Speaker 1: me and preparing for our conversation was just the size 174 00:10:50,036 --> 00:10:52,716 Speaker 1: of the industry. If someone had asked me to guess, 175 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:56,196 Speaker 1: I would have been off by orders of magnitude. Yes, 176 00:10:56,276 --> 00:11:00,436 Speaker 1: it is a huge industry, whatever way you slice the pie. 177 00:11:00,556 --> 00:11:05,756 Speaker 1: If it's active viewers on different distribution platforms, because you 178 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:08,716 Speaker 1: can watch esports in a variety of ways, especially if 179 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:12,396 Speaker 1: you have an Internet connection. If you count gamers as 180 00:11:12,476 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 1: part of the esports industry, people who game, there's more 181 00:11:16,756 --> 00:11:19,116 Speaker 1: of those than people who don't game, especially under the 182 00:11:19,156 --> 00:11:22,236 Speaker 1: age of thirty, and if you consider the global reach, 183 00:11:22,396 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 1: especially in the APAC region, the millions of concurrent viewers 184 00:11:26,796 --> 00:11:28,436 Speaker 1: you could have at a time in a day is 185 00:11:28,876 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 1: unparalleled to many other traditional sports. We can sometimes reach 186 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:36,836 Speaker 1: on our peak seasons on social media more viewers in 187 00:11:36,836 --> 00:11:39,076 Speaker 1: a day than certain hockey teams get in a season. 188 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:44,156 Speaker 1: And though the fandom the eyeballs are large, what I 189 00:11:44,196 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 1: find more as a businessperson compelling and exciting is the 190 00:11:47,636 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 1: dollars are starting to pace and grow to reflect a 191 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 1: lot of the magnitude of sponsorship and spend in traditional sports. 192 00:11:55,476 --> 00:11:59,196 Speaker 1: In the esports space, as people start to understand the 193 00:11:59,276 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: true volume of fans that are hard to advertise, too 194 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 1: hard to reach organically in other ways, and where they 195 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:09,756 Speaker 1: are and who they watch. Finding brands, finding distribution platforms, 196 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:13,076 Speaker 1: and even finding linear distribution platforms like TV try to 197 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:15,796 Speaker 1: reach and understand how can they have E sports showcased 198 00:12:15,956 --> 00:12:19,156 Speaker 1: is unbelievable, and so I believe there's a new Zoo 199 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:21,916 Speaker 1: study out that shows E sports industries valued a little 200 00:12:21,996 --> 00:12:24,836 Speaker 1: less than a billion targeted for next year in terms 201 00:12:24,836 --> 00:12:27,876 Speaker 1: of spend and revenue in the space. So it's it's 202 00:12:27,876 --> 00:12:31,956 Speaker 1: exciting how quickly. It's growing. From even five ten years ago, 203 00:12:32,036 --> 00:12:35,516 Speaker 1: it was relatively grassroots and not well established or defined. 204 00:12:36,836 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 1: We'll be right back Nicole. Your Wikipedia entry, assuming that 205 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:55,116 Speaker 1: it's accurate, has you as twenty seven years old. Is 206 00:12:55,156 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 1: that true? First of all, it is true. So how 207 00:12:59,476 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 1: does a twenty seven year old end up as CEO 208 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:07,916 Speaker 1: of a major company in this developing space? A lot 209 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 1: of stumbling up. It can't have been that much. There's 210 00:13:10,716 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 1: that's not enough time. So I have a very nonlinear 211 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:16,276 Speaker 1: path into esports, and I would say my age is 212 00:13:16,316 --> 00:13:20,836 Speaker 1: maybe surprising for the space, but not completely unprecedented, as 213 00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: historically leaders and esports either were in esports veterans for 214 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:29,156 Speaker 1: a while, who typically were players and kind of worked 215 00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: their way up, or traditional sports executives who were plopped in. 216 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:35,356 Speaker 1: That's changed a bit. Prior to this, I actually worked 217 00:13:35,396 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 1: for an investment firm in Chicago. I focused on distressed 218 00:13:40,116 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: asset turnarounds, which is maybe not a great signal for 219 00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:47,436 Speaker 1: those that are more financially savvy understanding my entry into esports, 220 00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:50,716 Speaker 1: but EG came to me actually as an investment opportunity. 221 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:53,396 Speaker 1: I was all jazzed for a board seat, but at 222 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:57,476 Speaker 1: the time the company resembled a distressed asset or a 223 00:13:57,516 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: true startup. That being said that, what was interesting about 224 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:02,156 Speaker 1: EG is, despite me coming in a little less than 225 00:14:02,196 --> 00:14:04,916 Speaker 1: three years ago, it had been a brand that it 226 00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: is actually one of the oldest esports organizations in the world. 227 00:14:07,716 --> 00:14:10,716 Speaker 1: And that's not super interest in general, but I would 228 00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:14,276 Speaker 1: say it's quite insightful for EG and that to exist 229 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 1: from nineteen ninety nine as a then niche gaming club 230 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: and survive and bring in sponsorships and keep your brand 231 00:14:23,396 --> 00:14:26,196 Speaker 1: and build and grow and build that long term fandom 232 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 1: and survive tech changes, game changes, and still say culturally 233 00:14:30,476 --> 00:14:35,316 Speaker 1: relevant was exciting. So from an investment conversion into operating position, 234 00:14:35,396 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: it wasn't that different from things I had done before, 235 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:41,596 Speaker 1: but definitely the coolest operating company I've been able to 236 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:44,596 Speaker 1: get my hands on in my history of ensure tech 237 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:49,756 Speaker 1: and SaaS businesses and hardware technology. But I've always loved 238 00:14:49,796 --> 00:14:52,516 Speaker 1: gaming from a personal passion point, so I understood the space. 239 00:14:52,556 --> 00:14:55,036 Speaker 1: I was familiar with the space, and I was excited 240 00:14:55,076 --> 00:14:58,396 Speaker 1: to help carve out what ought to be in esports 241 00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 1: as I wasn't seeing voices or perspectives like mine and 242 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:08,036 Speaker 1: our firm represented in this space. So I'm wondering whether 243 00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 1: the sort of stereotypical picture of the industry, which may 244 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 1: not be accurate as heavily male, heavily white, and Asian, 245 00:15:16,396 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: as an African American woman, is that a plus for 246 00:15:18,396 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 1: you that you come in and say, hey, I have 247 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:23,876 Speaker 1: a different perspective, or is it altogether irrelevant in an 248 00:15:23,956 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 1: enterprise that ultimately is about avatars on screens much more 249 00:15:28,156 --> 00:15:30,436 Speaker 1: than it's about who you are on the other side 250 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:33,836 Speaker 1: of the console. It was a bit of an interesting 251 00:15:33,916 --> 00:15:38,196 Speaker 1: challenge more from a personal perspective, as I think you 252 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 1: were quite polite with it. Gaming has stereotypes of who 253 00:15:42,036 --> 00:15:43,796 Speaker 1: is a gamer and what do they act like that 254 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 1: are not good? Are not positive? Rife with toxicity and 255 00:15:49,036 --> 00:15:53,836 Speaker 1: juvenile behavior, to call it nicely, and coming into a 256 00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:58,476 Speaker 1: space where I was different industry background, different in how 257 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 1: I appeared. I was a newcomer into a relatively gate 258 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: kept community of who's any esports and who's not, had 259 00:16:05,156 --> 00:16:08,396 Speaker 1: personal and professional challenges. But I think that actually has 260 00:16:08,436 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 1: becomes war cry and how we have been able to 261 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:16,316 Speaker 1: thrive in the past two years and differentiate our brand 262 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:21,516 Speaker 1: and I can't underline that it can't undermine really that 263 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:25,396 Speaker 1: it was easy, because it wasn't. It's truly carving a 264 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 1: path that hadn't been carved. And the anonymity of the 265 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:33,076 Speaker 1: Internet can be difficult to navigate as people love to 266 00:16:33,396 --> 00:16:36,316 Speaker 1: use that to their advantage to be toxic. But like 267 00:16:36,516 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 1: tends to attract like, and I've been able to I'm 268 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:42,876 Speaker 1: lucky that I've had mentorship and leadership, a strong advisory board, 269 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:46,596 Speaker 1: and friends in the space that are excited and compelled 270 00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 1: by why and what we do to make sure the 271 00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 1: space is safer. So, Nicole, when you talk about toxicity, 272 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:59,756 Speaker 1: is toxicity an existential threat to the esports industry or 273 00:16:59,756 --> 00:17:05,636 Speaker 1: to the gaming industry? And alternatively, is the perception of 274 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 1: toxicity also a kind of existential threats separate from the 275 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,636 Speaker 1: underlying reality. Oh I love that you've broken it up 276 00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:16,596 Speaker 1: into two. So for the former, there is a threat 277 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:19,156 Speaker 1: of toxicity because just like how people tend to make 278 00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:21,876 Speaker 1: bad decisions in group think, people tend to make bad 279 00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 1: decisions under the cover of anonymity. And we actually we 280 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:28,316 Speaker 1: did a study on this. We partnered with you gov, 281 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:32,676 Speaker 1: a data and survey company, and looked to understand toxic 282 00:17:32,756 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 1: behaviors and we found that a lot in gaming, whether 283 00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:41,516 Speaker 1: it's through harassment or rude language, etc. Is learned doesn't 284 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 1: appear until later in life. But if you know, if 285 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 1: parents don't understand what their kids are doing, if there's 286 00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 1: no checks and balances either by the game in the 287 00:17:50,716 --> 00:17:56,236 Speaker 1: system itself, that perpetuates and becomes an acceptable standard, which 288 00:17:56,276 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 1: really isn't acceptable. You can't act like you might in 289 00:17:59,276 --> 00:18:01,956 Speaker 1: a Call of duty game in the workplace or in 290 00:18:01,996 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 1: a group project in college. And that needs to be addressed. 291 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:09,676 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of moving pieces in terms of 292 00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 1: who is the address of this problem. Is it parents, 293 00:18:13,916 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 1: is it developers, is it the content creators? But it's 294 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:21,476 Speaker 1: something that creates tangible and what we found in our 295 00:18:21,516 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 1: study is we actually it does create tangible negative results 296 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 1: and that people either don't want to, for example, have 297 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: their mic on in game and talk, which impedes communication 298 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 1: for certain games and impedes results, which for me from 299 00:18:34,676 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 1: a team side, impedes potential future talent from developing and 300 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 1: coming into the pipeline. So we care about this because 301 00:18:41,316 --> 00:18:44,716 Speaker 1: it has long term material impacts into who is represented 302 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:48,316 Speaker 1: in the space, especially if toxicity is aimed at certain 303 00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 1: groups or demographics of people. The perception of toxicity. However, 304 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:56,796 Speaker 1: is also damaging because in a lot of spaces this 305 00:18:56,956 --> 00:19:01,476 Speaker 1: has gotten much better. I would say gaming is probably 306 00:19:01,516 --> 00:19:04,116 Speaker 1: more inclusive now than it even was five years ago. 307 00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 1: Is people are becoming aware and understand that what is 308 00:19:07,196 --> 00:19:13,236 Speaker 1: culturally accepted as shifting, but the negative, sometimes misunderstanding of 309 00:19:13,276 --> 00:19:19,316 Speaker 1: what the gaming industry represents hurts us from becoming mainstream, 310 00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:23,596 Speaker 1: financially viable and supported. If someone is like, oh, gaming's bad, 311 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:25,476 Speaker 1: I'm not even going to listen to what these people 312 00:19:25,556 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 1: have to say. That closes off the potential for both 313 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 1: us to develop and grow, but that person from developing 314 00:19:31,156 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 1: and growing, and whether that person is potential parent of 315 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 1: a talent that we'd want to recruit, a sponsorship partner, 316 00:19:38,356 --> 00:19:41,476 Speaker 1: a university that is trying to understand if esports curriculum 317 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:45,236 Speaker 1: should be supported, and so breaking down both the perception 318 00:19:45,276 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 1: and the reality is something that we try to take 319 00:19:47,836 --> 00:19:50,876 Speaker 1: a decent stab at as it relates to our wheelhouse 320 00:19:50,876 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 1: and our expertise, but is a multifaceted problem that I'm 321 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:57,516 Speaker 1: hopeful more and more people as we continue to talk about, 322 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:00,876 Speaker 1: address and try to tackle and solve in their own way, 323 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 1: because what we have found is again the learned behavior 324 00:20:05,116 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: not inherent. I've been very influenced by writing by a 325 00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 1: scholar at Dartmouth called Will Chang, who's actually in the 326 00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:13,356 Speaker 1: music department. Believe it or not, but he wrote a 327 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:16,276 Speaker 1: book called sound Play, one of his great books, which 328 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:20,836 Speaker 1: is specifically about the use of sound in major online 329 00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:25,076 Speaker 1: gaming platforms and experiences. And as part of that account, 330 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 1: he also talks about the whole range of behaviors, whether 331 00:20:29,556 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 1: they're supportive or abusive, that come an association with difference 332 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:38,796 Speaker 1: with gender, with sexuality, with disability status in the online space. 333 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:41,516 Speaker 1: And one of the things that emerges from his work, 334 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:45,116 Speaker 1: and I'm oversimplifying it a little bit just for our purposes, 335 00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 1: is that there's both a lot of the toxicity you're 336 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:52,996 Speaker 1: talking about and a lot of tools for capturing and 337 00:20:53,036 --> 00:20:57,876 Speaker 1: pushing back at that toxicity and reshaping and reforming it. 338 00:20:58,236 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 1: And I wonder, when you think about that from the 339 00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: standpoint of esports teams and franchises, what are the strategies 340 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 1: that are available to you to say, we're going to 341 00:21:07,676 --> 00:21:11,716 Speaker 1: make sure that our organized and our teams are contributing 342 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:15,196 Speaker 1: in the positive way to this stuff rather than to 343 00:21:15,276 --> 00:21:17,676 Speaker 1: the negative. How do you make those two things work together. 344 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:23,676 Speaker 1: It's been interesting for us as I've been a pretty 345 00:21:23,716 --> 00:21:26,436 Speaker 1: big stickler, and so I can give good examples of 346 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 1: how One of the problems we faced is finding good 347 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 1: talent that want to come into esports because I need 348 00:21:33,876 --> 00:21:37,196 Speaker 1: a head of finance. It's really hard to convince the 349 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 1: forty five year old controller at EUY to come on 350 00:21:40,076 --> 00:21:42,396 Speaker 1: over to an esports organization that I've never heard of 351 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:44,436 Speaker 1: the space. They don't really understand it. And when you 352 00:21:44,516 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 1: google gaming and esports, not wonderful things came up about 353 00:21:48,676 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 1: the stability, the perception inclusion, and so we've been tackling 354 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:54,116 Speaker 1: this through a couple of different ways, some of that 355 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:57,756 Speaker 1: are less sexy than others, but maybe forever all the 356 00:21:57,836 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 1: listeners rolling their eyes. But the first thing we pushed 357 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 1: was really a suite of back office benefits and support 358 00:22:04,276 --> 00:22:06,436 Speaker 1: that emulate what you would find at a lot of 359 00:22:06,436 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 1: our local peers in Seattle. Benefits, maternity leave, paternity leave, 360 00:22:11,476 --> 00:22:14,636 Speaker 1: full suite of healthcare, a lot of the mental wellness 361 00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 1: and physical wellness support first of its kind in esports. 362 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: And people were surprised, why are you spending on this 363 00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:24,716 Speaker 1: esports as sexy? There's so much young people that want 364 00:22:24,716 --> 00:22:27,676 Speaker 1: to come in. But if I can't attract the full 365 00:22:27,756 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 1: multigenerational audience of experience workers, I've already failed in inclusivity 366 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:35,156 Speaker 1: and that hurts our bottom line results. So there's a 367 00:22:35,196 --> 00:22:38,156 Speaker 1: lot of programming we put there to ensure we were 368 00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: getting a wide net of talent. On the competitive side, though, 369 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:48,196 Speaker 1: the esports space has been plagued despite being digitally native, 370 00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 1: plagued by lack of good data use in scouting. It's 371 00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:53,596 Speaker 1: a lot of who you know who the coach knows, 372 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:57,636 Speaker 1: which becomes an incestuous, self fulfilling pool of the same 373 00:22:58,116 --> 00:23:02,596 Speaker 1: fifty people are becoming pro players, which is crazy because 374 00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:06,316 Speaker 1: we have such opportunity for talent elsewhere, and so we 375 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:08,356 Speaker 1: are claimed to fame, especially in one of our games, 376 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:11,156 Speaker 1: League of Legends, was we've been using data and analytics 377 00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 1: to scout and recruit unknown quantities unknown talent and bring 378 00:23:16,316 --> 00:23:20,156 Speaker 1: in and develop up over time talent that we wouldn't 379 00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:23,036 Speaker 1: have found otherwise because they weren't already in network. That 380 00:23:23,196 --> 00:23:25,796 Speaker 1: also led that same method led to us being able 381 00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:29,276 Speaker 1: to start one of the only mixed gender rosters in esports. 382 00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 1: So between the back office infrastructure, the empirical methods for 383 00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 1: scouting and then of course showcasing where we have wins. 384 00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: In the education space, we do a lot of K 385 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:44,276 Speaker 1: through twelve programming, do a lot of university partnership around curriculum, 386 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:48,476 Speaker 1: anti toxicity, anti bullying, how to create a good personal 387 00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 1: brand for yourself on social media. If the gaming or 388 00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:55,436 Speaker 1: entertainment space is important, that investment of time and labor, 389 00:23:55,676 --> 00:23:58,996 Speaker 1: which is authentic to ourselves but also helps us build 390 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:02,676 Speaker 1: long term returns in people that think positively about what 391 00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:06,156 Speaker 1: we've done in the space, is critically important. So it's interesting. 392 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:11,356 Speaker 1: One weird nuance with esports that is cult is unlike 393 00:24:11,996 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 1: an NBA team, like you know the game you're going 394 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:16,276 Speaker 1: to play, the game is there forever, like basketball is 395 00:24:16,276 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 1: probably not going to go anywhere, and you kind of 396 00:24:17,956 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 1: know the rules aren't going to all of a sudden change. 397 00:24:20,996 --> 00:24:24,716 Speaker 1: We in esports are beholden to a series of developers. 398 00:24:25,316 --> 00:24:27,996 Speaker 1: Riot does not act like Valve, does not act like Epic, 399 00:24:28,036 --> 00:24:31,476 Speaker 1: and they can do whatever they kind of want. Some 400 00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:33,716 Speaker 1: of that gives us perks. We own more ip We 401 00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:36,636 Speaker 1: own more rights than traditional sports teams might own of 402 00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 1: their athletes or their gameplay. On the flip side, eg 403 00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:41,476 Speaker 1: used to be one of the best teams in the 404 00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:44,196 Speaker 1: world at a game called Halo. Halo is no longer 405 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:47,156 Speaker 1: a competitive game that exists. So we have to be 406 00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:50,596 Speaker 1: careful and always thoughtful of what games do we invest 407 00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:53,716 Speaker 1: in because it's expensive to run an esports organization, and 408 00:24:53,756 --> 00:24:57,036 Speaker 1: but also be good at the predictive nature of what 409 00:24:57,116 --> 00:25:01,996 Speaker 1: games will resonate with certain audiences, certain fans, certain sponsor needs. 410 00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 1: And that's an art of esports leadership. That was probably 411 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:07,916 Speaker 1: my biggest learning curve as there's no playbook for that, 412 00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 1: and that's the how you pick your winning jockey, and 413 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 1: esports leadership is finding good leaders who are really attuned 414 00:25:13,476 --> 00:25:18,116 Speaker 1: to the developers and changes of fan interest in games. 415 00:25:18,156 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 1: And so why that's relevant to your question is those 416 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: factors of what game do we invest in? And why 417 00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:30,396 Speaker 1: the in game avatars and what they represent is actually 418 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:34,476 Speaker 1: a meaningful metric in understanding do people play a game? 419 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 1: And I don't want to use names so I don't 420 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 1: want to get angry phone calls later. But there's this 421 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:39,396 Speaker 1: one game it's very popular right now. It's a first 422 00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:43,636 Speaker 1: person shooter game. It's having a hard time proliferating certain 423 00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:47,196 Speaker 1: region in Asia that is known for being very popular 424 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,276 Speaker 1: in gaming, and it's a huge region from a financial standpoint, 425 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:53,476 Speaker 1: huge region culturally, and there's a lot of theses as 426 00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:56,156 Speaker 1: of why, but when we use in some of our 427 00:25:56,236 --> 00:25:58,956 Speaker 1: derived stats around, we call it the matrix, like how 428 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:02,996 Speaker 1: we evaluate game titles to be in competitively, when we 429 00:26:03,076 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 1: look at style of game, like first person shooters do 430 00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:08,756 Speaker 1: well in certain regions and they don't, that impacts our 431 00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 1: decision as well as when a game has characters that 432 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:16,996 Speaker 1: look like people of that region, conversion tends to be higher, 433 00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 1: and we noticed this region didn't have any characters that 434 00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:23,636 Speaker 1: looked like them. It's kind of why Overwatch was so popular. 435 00:26:23,636 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 1: It's one of the first games that had a variety 436 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: of characters and personas of different body weights, different skin colors, 437 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:34,676 Speaker 1: different nationalities that really brought in new fandoms and audiences 438 00:26:34,716 --> 00:26:39,036 Speaker 1: that weren't there before, Versus a game that trying to 439 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:42,116 Speaker 1: not be offensive, but like Counterstrike where it's just terrorists 440 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:46,596 Speaker 1: versus counter terrorists, army looking white dude versus terrorist. You know, 441 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:51,716 Speaker 1: that doesn't attract certain people, and so it's actually really 442 00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 1: important and something that we think about deeply in terms 443 00:26:54,676 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 1: of what games do we enter into. Because there are 444 00:26:56,676 --> 00:26:59,876 Speaker 1: some games if you look at how they're structured, how 445 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,076 Speaker 1: the avatars are represented. Are you a human or are 446 00:27:02,116 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 1: you a car or are you an animal? That really 447 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 1: can dictate what fans are attracted and where viewers come from, 448 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:13,116 Speaker 1: as well as what sponsors feel comfortable sponsoring that title. 449 00:27:13,556 --> 00:27:16,756 Speaker 1: But it's critically important for us to be aware of 450 00:27:16,796 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 1: to understand where we invest our time and money and focus. 451 00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: It's really fascinating to imagine. It's as though James Naismith, 452 00:27:24,236 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 1: you know, the guy who invented basketball, owned the NBA, 453 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:32,036 Speaker 1: the NCAA, Basketball, International Basketball, and every basketball league in 454 00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:35,356 Speaker 1: the world, and could just say I'm changing basketball now. 455 00:27:35,396 --> 00:27:37,836 Speaker 1: I mean, so you know, they're obviously there are evolutions 456 00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 1: within those games. The game looks really different than it 457 00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 1: did when Nasmith created or when my great grandfather, who 458 00:27:42,676 --> 00:27:45,276 Speaker 1: was about five foot four was the semi professional basketball 459 00:27:45,276 --> 00:27:49,076 Speaker 1: player for the South Philadelphia Hebrew Association team, and you know, 460 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: he would talk to us when we were kids about 461 00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:52,996 Speaker 1: what basketball was like in those days, and it was 462 00:27:53,036 --> 00:27:55,276 Speaker 1: you know, it was even then hard to conceive how 463 00:27:55,396 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 1: he could have been one of the handful of best 464 00:27:57,036 --> 00:27:59,876 Speaker 1: basketball players on the East Coast. So things evolve, but 465 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:03,876 Speaker 1: they evolve more slowly and in a more decentralized way. 466 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:07,076 Speaker 1: I think to some degree here, as you were saying 467 00:28:07,396 --> 00:28:12,556 Speaker 1: the games are wholly owned, what is to stop the 468 00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 1: developers from trying to own the universe of esports entirely? 469 00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:22,796 Speaker 1: From saying, you know, like, we want to create our 470 00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:28,116 Speaker 1: own teams and franchises and have those operate within our universes. 471 00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:30,596 Speaker 1: In other words, from a sort of business organization standpoint, 472 00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:34,156 Speaker 1: why is it efficient for something like EG to have 473 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 1: to field teams across a range of different platforms or 474 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:43,916 Speaker 1: games rather than having everything consolidated in the platform owners Well, 475 00:28:43,956 --> 00:28:46,836 Speaker 1: this answer will vary by region because how this is 476 00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:49,916 Speaker 1: reflected in China is very different than how it's reflected 477 00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 1: in the US. As you probably could guess, there's more 478 00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:56,276 Speaker 1: end to end ownership in especially the APAC region than 479 00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:58,876 Speaker 1: you'd find here. But I don't even claim to be 480 00:28:58,876 --> 00:29:00,596 Speaker 1: an expert in APAC region, so I can speak to 481 00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:06,876 Speaker 1: North America. Part of it is the beautiful limitations of capitalism, right. 482 00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:11,116 Speaker 1: Making a game is very high level of effort, like 483 00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:16,876 Speaker 1: company initiative, huge vast upfront in investment exactly, and it's 484 00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 1: rife with problems, rife with human component risk. It's just 485 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:27,396 Speaker 1: it's an incredible undertaking. Adding a league that is hard 486 00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 1: to do. I know, I just pose a logistics problem. 487 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:34,396 Speaker 1: A developer could do that, but I don't know if 488 00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:37,596 Speaker 1: it's always financially viable to own all components at the 489 00:29:37,636 --> 00:29:40,596 Speaker 1: scale or without heavy future planning. That being said, there 490 00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:43,116 Speaker 1: are certain developers that are a higher touch, especially in 491 00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:45,516 Speaker 1: the franchise leagues. The leagues that we have to pay 492 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 1: to be a part of, and the incentive to us 493 00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:51,396 Speaker 1: is league guaranteed revenue. But we have provisions and controls 494 00:29:51,436 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 1: and rules that we must abide by versus some developers 495 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:59,396 Speaker 1: that are very hands off LEAs a fair but there 496 00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:02,956 Speaker 1: aren't many rights of provisions protecting us besides the logistics 497 00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:06,636 Speaker 1: and the time. So what might happen in ten years 498 00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: could be different than what's happening today, But current state 499 00:30:11,796 --> 00:30:14,276 Speaker 1: gamed we're probably protected just by the fact that game 500 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 1: development is such a big undertaking to support as an individual. 501 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:19,996 Speaker 1: It probably doesn't make as much sense or is the 502 00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:23,796 Speaker 1: smartest vertical integration to jump from game development all the 503 00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 1: way to esports team big picture question assume that esports 504 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: sort of continue on this trajectory towards greater and greater growth. 505 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 1: How will they How will esports as an industry change 506 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:41,716 Speaker 1: the way we broadly think about sports and its relationship 507 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:45,516 Speaker 1: to human experience. I mean, what do you see as 508 00:30:45,556 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 1: the biggest impacts. You've already mentioned the geographically localized versus 509 00:30:49,676 --> 00:30:53,156 Speaker 1: the non There's the on screen versus off screen. There's 510 00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:56,276 Speaker 1: the do you attend matches in a big urban you 511 00:30:56,276 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: know dome or do you do it at home? There's 512 00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 1: probably television versus streaming. I mean, there are a range 513 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:04,236 Speaker 1: of different ways that you're involved in something that's going 514 00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:07,636 Speaker 1: to disrupt a very big industry with a lot of 515 00:31:07,676 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 1: capital in it and a lot of power and a 516 00:31:09,396 --> 00:31:12,996 Speaker 1: lot of social importance. So when you think about the 517 00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:17,276 Speaker 1: bigger social impact that growth in esports is likely to have, 518 00:31:17,636 --> 00:31:20,636 Speaker 1: how do you imagine that that going well? I could 519 00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:23,556 Speaker 1: share a hope around and what we try to help 520 00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:26,836 Speaker 1: bridge the big gap we have, especially if you continue 521 00:31:26,876 --> 00:31:30,556 Speaker 1: to like in the strictional sports. So we haven't figured 522 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:32,716 Speaker 1: out partially due to the maturity and age of our 523 00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:36,796 Speaker 1: space as well as the accessibility to understanding, we haven't 524 00:31:36,796 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 1: figured out the multigenerational or inherited audience type pathway, you know, 525 00:31:40,676 --> 00:31:43,876 Speaker 1: traditional sports. You know, if your dad's a Patriots fan, 526 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:46,116 Speaker 1: you're probably going to have to watch some Patriots at 527 00:31:46,156 --> 00:31:47,916 Speaker 1: some point in your life. I mean, I was just 528 00:31:47,996 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 1: at a family funeral of my great uncle who died 529 00:31:50,156 --> 00:31:52,556 Speaker 1: at ninety two, who was a lifelong fan of the 530 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:56,156 Speaker 1: Washington sports team. He was sixty plus year season ticket 531 00:31:56,276 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 1: holder and the Washington football team, and that was a 532 00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:02,676 Speaker 1: central theme of the funeral because he was a central 533 00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:04,276 Speaker 1: theme of his life, and it was a way that 534 00:32:04,356 --> 00:32:08,556 Speaker 1: he bridged family connections and generations, and it was central. 535 00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:11,116 Speaker 1: So it really was generationally exactly the way that you're describing. 536 00:32:11,756 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 1: And we haven't seen that play out yet because I 537 00:32:13,876 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 1: would say probably the first generation of die hard esports 538 00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:20,836 Speaker 1: as we know today fans are the older millennials at 539 00:32:20,916 --> 00:32:24,876 Speaker 1: this at this stage, um, but seeing how we bridge 540 00:32:25,236 --> 00:32:28,396 Speaker 1: esports to a younger audience continue to be multigenerational be 541 00:32:28,436 --> 00:32:31,276 Speaker 1: important because and I don't want to sound pessimistic, but 542 00:32:31,316 --> 00:32:34,596 Speaker 1: why I love having these conversations is it is hard 543 00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:37,396 Speaker 1: to convince. You know, even my parents. If you ask 544 00:32:37,476 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 1: my parents, would what does your daughter do? She's like, ah, 545 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:43,236 Speaker 1: she works in tech. Like they don't really understand what 546 00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 1: I do. And I don't know if they sat. They're 547 00:32:49,396 --> 00:32:51,556 Speaker 1: proud of me, but they don't really get it. I 548 00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:54,276 Speaker 1: don't think they know how I get a paycheck. But um, 549 00:32:54,356 --> 00:33:00,476 Speaker 1: it's harder to bridge those that older audience, and I 550 00:33:00,556 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 1: hope younger audiences are able to carry some of that 551 00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:08,436 Speaker 1: heavy lifting to help this continue to be multigenerational, to 552 00:33:08,516 --> 00:33:12,876 Speaker 1: be sticky, fascinating. So transgenerational connection would be a desirable 553 00:33:12,916 --> 00:33:17,036 Speaker 1: thing for sure, And if it did, it might supplement 554 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:20,556 Speaker 1: or even displace some of the other kinds of identity 555 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:23,596 Speaker 1: based features of sports, and that might have some impact 556 00:33:23,636 --> 00:33:27,076 Speaker 1: on the way we identify around place, around country. You know, 557 00:33:27,076 --> 00:33:30,076 Speaker 1: in the Olympics, we're always thinking about country identity, right, 558 00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:33,436 Speaker 1: and yet that's a very seems like a very dated 559 00:33:33,476 --> 00:33:35,596 Speaker 1: way to think about. You know, athletes at the greatest 560 00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:38,316 Speaker 1: level internationally, right, I mean, on some level, who really 561 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:40,716 Speaker 1: cares what countries they represent? And when they play in 562 00:33:40,716 --> 00:33:42,716 Speaker 1: professional leagues, they come from all over the world typically 563 00:33:42,716 --> 00:33:46,036 Speaker 1: to wherever they go, and that's pretty cosmopolitan. What you're 564 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:48,356 Speaker 1: working in, what your industry represents is an even further 565 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:52,636 Speaker 1: globalization or cosmopolitanization of sport. But I also wonder if 566 00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:56,236 Speaker 1: there might be some loss of some of the familial 567 00:33:56,316 --> 00:34:02,236 Speaker 1: or identity based features that are more generationally bound. It's 568 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:04,796 Speaker 1: a tough thought to ponder because part of what I 569 00:34:05,196 --> 00:34:09,076 Speaker 1: see esports as is quite beautiful. That you can be 570 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:14,116 Speaker 1: someone who loves you sports and find community with people 571 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:17,236 Speaker 1: countries and time zones far away you don't even speak 572 00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:20,436 Speaker 1: the same language of you. But I'm hopeful for this 573 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:22,476 Speaker 1: because I think it is a natural progression of the 574 00:34:22,516 --> 00:34:27,476 Speaker 1: attitudes and behaviors of our youngest generation right now, how 575 00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:30,636 Speaker 1: they engage in the digital world and how they consume content. 576 00:34:31,236 --> 00:34:36,116 Speaker 1: It is much less where am I physically allocated to 577 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:40,716 Speaker 1: who has values, beliefs, and ideas like me in a 578 00:34:40,796 --> 00:34:47,556 Speaker 1: broader scale. So I'm optimistic, a little bit biased, but optimistic. Nicole. 579 00:34:47,636 --> 00:34:51,276 Speaker 1: Thank you for educating me and our listeners. And I'm 580 00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:52,996 Speaker 1: very confident that we're going to be hearing a lot 581 00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 1: from you in the future, whether it's in this space 582 00:34:55,516 --> 00:34:57,796 Speaker 1: or other spaces that you find yourself in. And I 583 00:34:57,796 --> 00:35:00,316 Speaker 1: really want to extend my appreciation to you for spending 584 00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 1: some time with me. Thank you, Thank you so much. Noah, 585 00:35:04,196 --> 00:35:16,556 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. What I learned from Nicole is 586 00:35:16,756 --> 00:35:22,356 Speaker 1: genuinely fascinating, with serious implications for society, for our future, 587 00:35:22,676 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 1: and for how we interact with each other in the 588 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:29,636 Speaker 1: spaces of entertainment and sports in the world. Listening to Nicole, 589 00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:32,636 Speaker 1: I felt like a whole world was opening up to me. 590 00:35:32,996 --> 00:35:35,796 Speaker 1: And it's a world in which I think certain elements 591 00:35:35,796 --> 00:35:39,716 Speaker 1: are familiar, but others actually seem to be extraordinarily different. 592 00:35:40,276 --> 00:35:42,756 Speaker 1: I confess that for me, and I'm someone who loves 593 00:35:42,756 --> 00:35:45,676 Speaker 1: to watch sports, the idea of watching somebody play a 594 00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:50,236 Speaker 1: video game is still new and novel. Listening to Nicole, 595 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:53,316 Speaker 1: I was able to see that the mere excellence of 596 00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:56,196 Speaker 1: the people performing it is actually reminiscent of the joy 597 00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:59,716 Speaker 1: that we take in watching people perform any activity to 598 00:35:59,796 --> 00:36:03,316 Speaker 1: an excellent degree, and we all experienced that during the Olympics, 599 00:36:03,316 --> 00:36:05,676 Speaker 1: when we watch some sports that we don't ordinarily watch 600 00:36:05,876 --> 00:36:10,116 Speaker 1: and are nevertheless gripped to see it done the highest 601 00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:14,996 Speaker 1: possible level. Furthermore, as Nicole pointed out, there's an entertainment component, 602 00:36:15,276 --> 00:36:18,316 Speaker 1: especially with regard to streaming, that is actually more laid 603 00:36:18,316 --> 00:36:20,476 Speaker 1: back and fun than a lot of the watching of 604 00:36:20,516 --> 00:36:23,796 Speaker 1: sports that we do, because we're not just observing competition, 605 00:36:24,076 --> 00:36:27,956 Speaker 1: we're also observing fun being had, and that invites us 606 00:36:27,996 --> 00:36:30,956 Speaker 1: as viewers to tap into that experience of fun much 607 00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:33,436 Speaker 1: more so than we do when we watch professional athletes, 608 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:35,756 Speaker 1: who to a certain degree are having fun, but to 609 00:36:35,836 --> 00:36:40,236 Speaker 1: a much greater degree are all business. Another takeaway that 610 00:36:40,276 --> 00:36:42,876 Speaker 1: really struck me was the idea that in the world 611 00:36:42,876 --> 00:36:46,116 Speaker 1: of esports, where you're from has nothing to do with 612 00:36:46,156 --> 00:36:49,596 Speaker 1: what teams you root for. I don't think it's possible 613 00:36:49,636 --> 00:36:54,276 Speaker 1: to overstate how transformative and effect expanded esports would therefore 614 00:36:54,356 --> 00:36:58,676 Speaker 1: have on cultures in North America, in Europe, and elsewhere 615 00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:02,236 Speaker 1: around the world where local and national identities are bound 616 00:37:02,316 --> 00:37:05,916 Speaker 1: up in sports teams, whether those sports teams are university based, 617 00:37:06,476 --> 00:37:10,796 Speaker 1: regionally based, city based, or even now nationally based. In 618 00:37:10,836 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 1: our world of fading national and local identity associations, sports 619 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:20,396 Speaker 1: have become important glue for holding us together. On the 620 00:37:20,396 --> 00:37:24,756 Speaker 1: other hand, sports also have the capacity, via those local identities, 621 00:37:24,836 --> 00:37:27,316 Speaker 1: to bring out the worst in US and to make 622 00:37:27,396 --> 00:37:32,996 Speaker 1: us polarized and regionalized. In contrast, esports both hold out 623 00:37:33,036 --> 00:37:36,516 Speaker 1: the hope of true cosmopothanism, where you could root for 624 00:37:36,556 --> 00:37:41,076 Speaker 1: anyone from anywhere, and also of potentially weakening some of 625 00:37:41,116 --> 00:37:43,796 Speaker 1: the local ties that are in fact of some value 626 00:37:43,796 --> 00:37:48,716 Speaker 1: to us. In living in civic communities. Last, but not least, 627 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:51,836 Speaker 1: I walked away from this conversation with Nicole with a 628 00:37:51,876 --> 00:37:56,076 Speaker 1: sense of being extraordinarily impressed to hear a young person 629 00:37:56,436 --> 00:38:00,036 Speaker 1: so dynamically committed to the growth of an industry so 630 00:38:00,156 --> 00:38:03,756 Speaker 1: deeply steeped in its details. And based on this conversation, 631 00:38:03,836 --> 00:38:06,596 Speaker 1: I'm pretty confident that we should be all watching her 632 00:38:06,716 --> 00:38:12,876 Speaker 1: career going forward alongside career of evil geniuses. Until the 633 00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:16,876 Speaker 1: next time I speak to you. Breathe deep, think deep thoughts, 634 00:38:17,356 --> 00:38:23,316 Speaker 1: and have a little fun, maybe watching esports. If you're 635 00:38:23,316 --> 00:38:26,436 Speaker 1: a regular listener, you know I love communicating with you 636 00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:30,196 Speaker 1: here on Deep Background. I also really want that communication 637 00:38:30,236 --> 00:38:32,796 Speaker 1: to run both ways. I want to know what you 638 00:38:32,836 --> 00:38:35,796 Speaker 1: think are the most important stories of the moment, and 639 00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:37,836 Speaker 1: what kinds of guests you think you would be useful 640 00:38:37,876 --> 00:38:41,036 Speaker 1: to hear from. More So, I'm opening a new channel 641 00:38:41,076 --> 00:38:44,716 Speaker 1: of communication. To access it, just go to my website 642 00:38:44,916 --> 00:38:47,876 Speaker 1: Noa Dashfelman dot com. You can sign up from my 643 00:38:47,916 --> 00:38:51,636 Speaker 1: newsletter and you can tell me exactly what's on your mind, 644 00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:55,436 Speaker 1: something that would be really valuable to me and I 645 00:38:55,476 --> 00:38:59,436 Speaker 1: hope to you too. Deep Background is brought to you 646 00:38:59,476 --> 00:39:03,196 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is mo La Board, our 647 00:39:03,236 --> 00:39:07,076 Speaker 1: engineer is Benaliday, and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. 648 00:39:07,796 --> 00:39:11,956 Speaker 1: Editorial support from no Osband. Theme music by Luis Guerra 649 00:39:12,636 --> 00:39:16,756 Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia Jean Cott, 650 00:39:17,036 --> 00:39:21,996 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carl mcgliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. 651 00:39:22,596 --> 00:39:24,956 Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 652 00:39:25,476 --> 00:39:27,796 Speaker 1: I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you 653 00:39:27,836 --> 00:39:31,676 Speaker 1: can find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover 654 00:39:31,756 --> 00:39:35,876 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com 655 00:39:35,876 --> 00:39:39,156 Speaker 1: slash podcasts, and if you liked what you heard today, 656 00:39:39,556 --> 00:39:42,676 Speaker 1: please write a review or tell a friend. This is 657 00:39:42,756 --> 00:39:43,676 Speaker 1: deep background