WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - November 16th, 2019 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.640 This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Hi, I'm 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.360 Jason Kelly and I'm Kaylee Lines in for Carol Masser. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.880 Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend podcast. In this episode, 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:14.600 we're going to bring you news of the week, insights 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.520 from the magazine, and more, including your holiday gift guide. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.360 That's right, and before we get to that, Kaylee and 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.200 I love the holiday gift Guide because there's some very 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.759 high end things that probably no one's gonna buy from me, 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.000 but that's cool. But there are things that I learned 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.239 about that maybe I didn't even think I needed to know. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.640 We're also going to talk about Nike. We're going to 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.559 talk about we work two companies in the midst of 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.800 sort of challenges of their own, multiple challenges going on 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:43.760 for those companies. Plus it might be my favorite story 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.000 of the week, Jason. Open source software has gone from 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.479 a joke to the engine of the world technology and 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.239 it's hidden in an Arctic cave. Yeah, who knew that. 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.240 If you really wanted to understand where the world might 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.960 go in case of disaster, it's hidden in a cave 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.440 way way way up north. But first up, Jason, it's 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.200 one of the biggest stories of the week and of 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.280 the year. I know you guessed it. It's trade. So 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:10.440 kayleie trade. Obviously, it's a market driver, it's a business driver. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.920 It's a headline driver. To say the least, this trade 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.520 war between the U S and China. Trade writ large. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.080 It feels like one of the only things we talk 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.520 about ever. Sean Donnan, that's all he does. He is 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.080 obsessed with trade, and that's why we love him. We 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.080 love catching up with him, and his story in the 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.680 magazine this week really talks about the contours of this 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.840 trade deal, and maybe the contours aren't quite as ambitious 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:37.560 as we once thought they might be. He joins us 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.200 from Washington. So Sean, tell us where we are and 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:45.080 how big or how small this deal looks. Yeah. What 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:46.920 we really tried to do with this piece, my colleague 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.160 Jenny Leonard and I, who cover this on a day 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.160 to day basis, is to step back and and really 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.240 look at the the arc of this thing. And we 0:01:55.320 --> 0:02:00.280 have gone. It's worth remembering from a carefully craft did 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:06.040 plan to take on China and force some really fundamental 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:11.520 structural changes in China's economic architecture to what now is 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.360 shaping up as a pretty narrow deal and some more 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.079 talks to come. And we really have gotten there as 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:23.800 a result of Donald Trump and his unpredictabilities, what some 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.480 would say his impetuousness, uh, and all of those tariffs 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.800 that he has thrown on the table that have really 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.240 changed the game here, and they're going to have lasting 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.560 consequences for what is really the most important economic relationship 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.280 in the in the world. Well, and what exactly are 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.840 those lasting consequences going to look like? Because as this 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.400 narrative is drawn out for the better part of eighteen 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.919 months now, it now kind of looks like maybe we're 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:49.680 just going to get back to where we were at 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.000 the start of all this rather than some more fundamentally 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.480 different than we were at the beginning. Yeah. So I 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.320 think there's two big consequences here. One is is kind 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.480 of the hard economic consequence, uh, the disruption that we've 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.400 had from from this trade war. There are now tariffs 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.320 from the U. S side on three sixty billion dollars 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.720 in imports from China. That's about seventy or so of 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.560 those imports. Uh. That is a big drag for a 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.480 lot of businesses who rely on components from China or 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:24.799 do manufacturing in China. UM, it also is UH has 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.480 hit the more broadly business sentiment, and the risk is 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.040 also a consumer sentiment down the line. There's a reason 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.200 we were talking about fears of recession here in the 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.600 US in August, and one of the big reasons was 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.480 the trade wars, the second big consequences. Everyone agrees that 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.160 the US or a US administration, whoever was in the 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.040 White House, had to take on China and really had 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:54.000 to kind of renegotiate the rules of the relationship. Donald 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.680 Trump went all in on that in some pretty brutal 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.120 tactics when it comes to international economic diplomacy. There's nothing 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:05.040 blunt or than a tariff when it comes to negotiating 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.320 these things. And UH, he raised the stakes. And the 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.360 question is has he delivered, will he have delivered? And 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.600 what does that mean for the future. Can another American 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.520 president come in and repair the relationship or have another 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.480 go at it? And that is really going to define 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.840 the relationship going forward. We've got a new level of 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.240 hostility between Washington and Beijing that we really didn't have 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.720 three or four years ago. Well, and Sean, you know, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.359 one of the things you mentioned in your piece talks 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.440 about the relationship and some of the moments along the 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.720 way that the President and the administration have had with 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.640 business leaders, you know who have stepped in at times 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.679 to maybe try and convince him to do something different 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.640 than what he was thinking. And these are well known names, 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.600 the CEO of Walmart, CEO of Blackstone, CEO of Best Buy, 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.920 UH and others. What role has business played, if any, 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:05.040 in shaping this narrative, Well, we know that there's there's 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.000 been two parallel conversations that have gone on between the 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.800 president and his aids and between President UH and people 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.800 he respects and counts on for advice in business. It's 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.960 not just those he as you mentioned, It's Steve Schwartzman UH. 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:22.560 It's also people donors like Sheldon Adelson and UH and 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.839 mainstream business figures like Tim Cook from Apple, who really 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:33.080 has all along been lobbying for the Trump administration to 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:36.279 take a more cautious approach or to be careful what 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.680 path it goes down because it does a lot of 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.760 manufacturing in China and also relies on China in a 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.800 big way as a market. So you know, Trump set 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.440 out to disrupt this economic relationship. That also means disrupting 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.560 business relationships, and business has really been trying to kind 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.880 of restrain him or at least put him on a 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.000 path uh to getting some meaningful changes that they do want. 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.720 The businesses have long complained about things like the licensing 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.520 process in China, the subsidies that big Chinese state owned 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.120 companies benefit from also private sector companies, and that kind 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.240 of unfair competition that you get from China, the intellectual 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.920 property theft, and and and so on. Again. The big 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.160 question as we kind of near the one year to 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:25.080 go to the election, is has Trump's China gambit paid 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.760 off for businesses? Has it really changed the equation? And 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.800 that's Sean Dunn and talking about his story on trade 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.320 with Jenny Leonard and Kaylee. One of the things that 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.760 I really liked about this was if you've been following this, 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:41.080 and especially if you haven't, it's a great summation of 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.160 both the strategy and the tactics, the twists and turns 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:49.520 that this huge trade conversation has taken. It's a really 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.520 great reminder of the fact that where we are now 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.359 is nowhere even close to where we began about eighteen 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.880 months ago. All Right, Jason, I got to start off 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.440 with saying, I love the headline on this next story. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.520 India's series of enguished Trolls and princesters to become the 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.600 world's most popular YouTube channel. So here to tell us 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.479 more about it is Lucashaw from Los Angeles. He co 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.000 wrote the story with another reporter, I mean, Lucas tell 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.200 us more about T Series. It's a Bollywood company, it's 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.280 a film studio. It owns a bunch of music. What's 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.600 their deal. It is the largest record label in India. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.840 It controls anywhere from thirty of the market, which in 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.240 India is one of the most music craze countries in 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.920 the countries in the world. All their biggest movies, or 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.200 at least most of them feature singing and dancing in 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.000 a way that the movies you'll see in the US 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.760 and Europe don't. And what T Series has done over 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.440 the past few years is kind of twofold. One is 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.280 they've really expanded their film production, so they're you know, 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.720 they started off buying the right to soundtracks, which is 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.480 this weird business in India where before the movie even 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.680 comes out, you sort of buy the right to release 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.760 that soundtrack. Probably only one in every ten or twenty 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.600 actually hits, but if that one hits, you make a 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.560 lot of money. And that's how they that's in many 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.119 ways how they started. Then they start making their own movies, 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:00.600 kind of leveling up, and they also expand did heavily 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.960 on YouTube, and over the past few years, as YouTube 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.080 and internet more broadly in India has taken off, T 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.800 Series has been one of the biggest beneficiaries. You know, 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.560 they went from having just twelve million subscribers a couple 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.360 of years ago to now having I believe a hundred 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.720 seventeen million, which is more than than any channel by 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:18.840 quite a bit. Well, and Lucas, one of the things 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:20.600 you guys point out in the store, which I found 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.280 so fascinating and didn't know before, is really just the 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:29.160 way that media and music are consumed in India. To 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.160 your point, it's it's just totally different and in some 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.400 ways not hard to get your head around, but surprising. Yeah. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.079 I mean, one of the quirks from earlier in T 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.160 series history is, you know, the music industry in the 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.199 US and Europe. You sort of went from buying c 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.120 d s, which was really the golden age of the 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.360 music business because you'd pay twenty dollars for a whole CD, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.640 you probably only wanted three or four songs. Then you 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.719 had piracy sort of disrupt the model. Then you know 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.680 iTunes came along and it made it so that you 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:58.719 could buy an individual song instead of having to buy 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.600 the full album. That digital storefront in that we had 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.680 in the West never really happened in India. So they 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.880 went from hind of cassettes and CDs to having ring tones. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:09.559 For a really long time, was the one way that 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.360 you could listen to music online. That was at one 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.400 point T series is biggest line of revenue. And then 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.520 it went into streaming, which is where we are now. 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.480 But whereas paid streaming has become k of the biggest 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.120 money maker for the music business in the US, Europe 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.880 and in parts of Latin America, getting people to pay 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:26.720 in India, which is a much poor country, has been 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.640 a difficult proposition, which has enabled YouTube, which is really 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.880 the biggest free music streaming service in the world, not 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.360 just in India but everywhere. Think about the way people 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.080 use YouTube in the US, in England, across Europe, music 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.640 is the number one category and YouTube, but in India 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.560 that is magnified times ten times A hundred and so 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.559 if you look up globally the top like the top 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.679 fifty music channels in India in any given week, excuse me, 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.040 the top fifty music channels in the globe in any 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.280 given week, about half of them are from India. I mean, 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.360 how much more growth can they get on YouTube? Because 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.480 and India has a lot of people, A lot of 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.880 people are usually connected, but a lot of people aren't 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.560 yet there should be plenty of growth kind of ahead 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.679 of it. So far, I believe there are six hundred, 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.640 six hundred fifty million Indians connected to the Internet. But 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:12.800 this is a country with more than one point three billion, 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.199 close to one point four billion people, growing at a 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.080 rate where it's expected to surpass China's the most populous 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.400 country in the world in in just a few years. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.320 And T series will will definitely reap the benefits of that. 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.120 You know, YouTube has I think two three hundred million 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.760 monthly active users in India. India is now the number 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.760 one market for YouTube in the world, and most people 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.680 at at YouTube and in the music industry expect that 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.920 to grow. That's why you've seen Spotify, Apple Music, a 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.080 lot of paid streaming services launched in India, in the 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.280 past few years because they expect the number of people 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.560 listening to music over the Internet to skyrocket well. And 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.400 for foreign companies coming into India, does that pose an 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.480 existential threat to those like T series or is that 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.000 an opportunity for them. I think it's more of an opportunity. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.720 You know, there is certainly a threat as as companies 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.920 like Netflix trying to make Indian originals. Maybe those movies 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.400 are more popular than T series, but for the most part, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.360 they're gonna rely on T series to try to get fans. 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.440 You know, T Series sees its future is having this 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.400 this virtual cycle where they let's say they have a 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.600 movie coming out that they're making. They upload a video 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.040 to YouTube that's a song from that movie or that 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.679 teases that movie. It gets a ton of attention. They 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.480 make money from that from advertising that promotes this movie, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.080 which then becomes a hit, and it leads yours back 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.040 to the YouTube channel to more music. And if you 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.959 listen to big tech companies Netflix, Amazon, you know, this 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.320 is a little bit Pollyanna Pollyanna ish of them, But 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.560 they like to talk about how they're connecting people around 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.240 the world two different types of culture and serving as 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.080 these bridges. Sometimes that's not true. But in the case 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.040 of T Series, it's a really great example where YouTube 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.640 has taken a record label from India, made it the 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.520 number one channel in the world. And while the majority 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.360 of its viewership comes from India, T Series told me 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.559 that thirty of their viewership comes from outside of India. 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.680 That can be the diaspora in the UK, US, Canada 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.920 and it maybe even just fans who decide they really 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.920 like Bollywood right well. And it's such an interesting observation 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.640 too in this week where Disney Plus is launching, and 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.360 I feel like we're talking in a whole different way 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:20.560 about business models, consumption of media, global brands, as you say, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.320 And so given that, where does this company sort of 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.920 fit in to the global landscape as all of these 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.960 companies have increasingly wide ambitions, I think they become a 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.480 major supplier. That's at least the ambition, right is they 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.080 They say that they're already talking to both Netflix and 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.559 Amazon about selling them shows. Disney Plus, which launched in 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.079 the US this week, is going to expand globally. It's 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.440 going to go to Western Europe, it will probably go 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.440 to parts of Asia at some point. Although Disney has 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.200 its own streaming service in India called hot Star, and 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.520 they'll just be a desire for local language programming because 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.640 as we have services that exist all around the world 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.480 as a recognition that US programming alone is not enough. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.040 It's something that Netflix has really been a leader in. Yes, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.880 Netflix has hundreds of original series and movies and documentaries 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:11.960 that are in the English language, but they're also going 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.040 to make more than a hundred shows next year that 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.120 are in other languages, and that can be in Swedish, 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.200 it can be in German uh, and then it can 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.120 also be in Japanese. And T Series is there to 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.720 to supply anybody who wants to come along and buy 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.120 from them. I don't think the company sees itself as 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.000 competing as owning its own platform. If you will, you know, 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.800 STI has no interest in going head to head with YouTube. 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.479 YouTube is just it's best distribution vehicle right now. Spotify 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.360 as another distribution vehicle for it, and at another and 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.080 maybe down the line that will be Netflix, Amazon, Disney 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.559 Plus and so on. That was Lucas Shaw chatting about 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.960 his T Series story and Jason. This was so interesting 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.160 to me because it's a Bollywood film studio it's a 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.920 music owner and it's a YouTube channel. I mean, they 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:52.920 have so much going on here well, and it's one 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.560 of these reminders as well, this notion that Bollywood what 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.640 a massive industry, but also the size and scope kids 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:04.960 lead of the Indian consumer economy. I think we underestimate 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:09.119 or even forget how powerful that is for global companies 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.680 and domestic companies there in India, especially considering only about 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.960 half of them or even online to this point. So 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.959 it's definitely an interesting story to watch. Eben O v 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.400 Williams is here the sneakers arms race. What's going on? Yeah, 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.240 So a couple of years ago, Nike released a running 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.920 shoe that was significantly better than any other running shoe 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.040 on the market from a from a speed and a 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.800 recovery standpoint, and it became a big deal for you know, 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:32.760 average joe runners like the three of us, but it 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.680 became a bigger deal in competitive and professional circles where 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.720 you know, the difference between a lot of these runners 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:42.200 can be seconds over an entire marathon. Uh, Nike shoe 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.760 which builds itself as four percent more efficient you know 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.800 over a marathon, that's a couple of minutes, right, that's 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.000 a huge gap. So the shoes became a huge deal 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.640 in the professional world, where the people who are wearing 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.240 them were setting records and winning races, and a lot 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.240 of the people who were not wearing them, we're not 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.560 having the same success. So I guess the question is 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.240 is that fair? Yeah, so this is the major question. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.000 And as a caveat, you know, every other shoe company 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.000 right now is working to reproduce what Nike has. There's 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.720 a carbon fiber in these shoes. The four ft is 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.280 a little steeper, so it kind of rocks you forward. 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.640 It's new lightweight foam. You know. I've spoken to a 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.000 number of designers at a number of other companies. Everyone 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:22.560 is working on replicating exactly what Nike did. Um. But 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.080 as they do that, Nike is working on whatever it 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.920 thinks is faster and faster UM. And I think the 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:29.960 fear in the industry is that, you know, Nike, he's 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.360 a thirty six billion dollar revenue a year company. Most 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.640 of these companies saw cony Brooks much much, much, much smaller, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:38.800 um that that Nike may be able to kind of 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.600 keep iterating their way ahead of the pack and therefore 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.000 consistently have the fastest shoes on the market. Well, and 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.920 you make a really important comparison in your story back 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.200 to something I think we all remember from the Olympics 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:53.160 a few years back, which was those sleek swimsuits that 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.800 led to a bunch of records being broken and then 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.760 ultimately got bamned. Exactly. Yeah, back in the you know, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.520 eight two thousand's before um, those long speedo swimsuits which 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.960 Michael Phelps was wearing. Over a hundred world records were 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.960 broken in those suits, and the governing body for swimming 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.760 came out and said, listen, we can't do this anymore. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.920 You know, the swimsuit can't cover this amount of your body. 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.360 You know some of the materials in that suit, you 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.720 know that we're helping with buoyancy. Can't do that anymore. Uh. 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:22.800 The reason why I think the shoe story is so 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:24.640 interesting right now is because the I double a f 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.560 tracks governing body is now looking at this exact thing. 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.720 You know, they've convened athletes and scientists and sports ethicists 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.040 and they're getting together right now and they're saying, listen, 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.080 what do we or do we do anything to kind 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.160 of clarify our rules because right now the rules are 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.560 very very vague and opaque. Well, and that begs the 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.960 question how hard of a line is that to draw? 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.880 When it's a okay, performance enhancement, it just makes you 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.960 run better. To this is now putting others at a 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.480 competitive disadvantage. We really need to read this. Yeah, and 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.400 that's a great question. And it's not as easy as 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.800 maybe it was for the swimming governing body. Right, they 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.840 could theoretically outlaws some of the materials. I've heard people 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.760 say there shouldn't be allowed carbon fiber plates and shoes. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.680 Other people say, you know, the four foot and hell height, 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.800 or maybe the springing and the efficiency. There's different kind 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:11.800 of metrics you can maybe used to draw the line. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.080 The funny thing is everyone in the shoe world wants 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.720 no restrictions, right, whether you're Nike, whether you're Brooks, whether 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.399 you're scconi. Everybody says, you know, we want to be 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.920 able to create great technology and if it continues to 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.480 make runners faster and faster, great And the truth is 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.960 that that helps other runners, right that if you go 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.399 to starting lines of the marathon, so many people are 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.159 in these Nike shoes because they're faster and they're more efficient. Right, 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.320 So Adidas, so all these other companies, even if you're 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.639 not Nike, just feel like, listen, if I can make 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:40.600 a better shoe, it's going to help me sell them 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.879 to the masses, not just to put them on the 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.320 on the feet of Olympians. And that helps my business 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.320 as well well. And it's interesting to you think about 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.960 other sports, especially that are widely played by consumers, whether 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.240 it's tennis or golf. I mean, the technology revolutions in 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.280 those sports have been massive over the last fifty years. Yeah, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.480 and and the really fascinating thing. And track is also 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.160 a good exam right. You know, if you go back 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.399 eighty years, they were running on cinder block track, right, 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:05.840 and now they're running on a much faster surface. Um. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.320 But the main difference to that, to me is that 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.760 that was a lot of those were were technology iterations 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:13.520 that were available to everybody. Right. As soon as the 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.960 track got better, everyone got faster. Right. This is a 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.440 situation where if you're a Nike athlete, you got faster 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.920 the moment Nike put out these shoes. But if you 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.159 were a Brooks athlete, or you were an athlete of 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.560 a different company, you know, you're kind of waiting for 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.480 the engineers at your company to make you as fast 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.560 as the as the other person got boosted. And this 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.680 is the fear I think. I spoke to Ryan Hall, 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.800 who's a former professional runner, and one of the things 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.680 he was saying is that he fears that if Nike 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.440 continues to make the fastest shoes, everyone who wants to 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.960 be on the podium at the Olympics, at trials, at 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.120 World Championships is going to be wearing Nike. And when 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.720 Nike fully curbs the market on athletes, they kind of 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.159 have already, but once they fully do it, then they 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.040 can essentially set the price for whatever they want to 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.720 pay these guys. And that's Evan nob Williams talking about Nike, 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.080 and it's applicated for Nike, right, Kaylee, in the sense 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.840 that they are so closely associated with running the roots 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.000 of the company are there. It's been a huge driving 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.879 force for them. But a new CEO coming in is 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.800 going to have to deal with controversy in many forms. 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.200 And it's so interesting to think about what the company 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.960 is going to look like going forward, especially it's running program. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.680 How do they rebuild it? What does it look like? 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.400 So Kayley, this week's cover story. It's about the ultimate 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.160 backup drive. A cave in the Arctic holds the world's 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:34.720 most important code. Bloomberg's Ashley Vance takes this inside with 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.400 GitHub CEO Not Friedman. So we're here in Salvard at 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:44.600 seventy eight degrees north latitude, at the site of the future. 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:49.200 In GitHub Arctic Code Vault. He's depositing six thousand of 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.200 the most popular open source projects in an archive inside 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.639 this mountain. Open the vault. This is how it works. 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.439 The data is stored on a reel of film coated 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.080 with iron ox side powder. The information can still be 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.960 read by a computer or, if need be, by a 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.920 human with a magnifying glass. How long will this last? 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.320 Were confident for a thousand and we're aiming now to 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.800 do a research project to document two thousand, two thousand years. 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.680 Do you think this could last years? Let me catch 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.480 you up on who that is. That's company. Get hub 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.720 is the main place people go to write open source code. 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.440 Tens of millions of people hop on geth hub and 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.040 create the applications that make the world tick, which is 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:38.600 why not wants to protect it from terrorist hackers, electromagnetic pulses, 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.280 and other unforeseen disasters. I mean, this is real one 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.480 of the get hub Arctic code fault, and we're gonna 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.040 put it here in small bard under the ice in 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.440 the next two thousand years. I think twenty years ago, 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.160 if you told someone that twenty years in the future, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.760 in the year all of human civilization will depend on 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.960 run on open source code written for free and put 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.040 into almost every product in the world, I think people 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.120 would say, like that's crazy, like that's never gonna happen, 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.080 like that software is written by big professional companies and uh, 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:14.159 and yet here we are, and so how much of 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.280 this is just making sure we could restore our way 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.080 of life. I'm over all pretty optimistic about civilization, Like 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.480 I think we can bet that, you know, humans will 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.760 be thriving for a long time on planet Earth. And 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:26.159 so another way to think about this is it's just 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:28.879 like a time capsule, Like there's this amazing moment in 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.040 history where the whole world is starting to run on software, 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.600 and that software is made out of open source. Open 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.560 source is sort of being everything that's actually advanced. With 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:40.840 a look at protecting open source code in an Arctic 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.159 cave and Jason, what really struck me is that the 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.399 people who create this code. They're not paid to do it, 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.760 they're not employed by any of these companies, and yet 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.000 it's used by Apple, Twitter, Google, even in cars. It's 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.960 wild well and in a post apocalyptic world, this could 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.560 be the foundation for where we go from here. It's 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.320 time now for another edition of Business Week Talks. This 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.520 week we that would be me and Carol Masser spoke 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.919 with Imran Kahan, the former chief strategy officer over it Snap. 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.320 He's now the CEO of Veri, a shop. He talked 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:15.120 about surviving the wrath of Jeff Bezos. Here's that conversation. 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:16.760 So tell us a little bit about what you're doing 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.959 a very because do you think about Amazon constantly when 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:24.920 you're thinking about strategy for you guys, Uh, I fundamentally 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.000 believe that one company cannot solve all problems. And I 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.840 think if you look at e commerce right now is 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.920 ten percent of overall retail sales and um. And there's 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.600 a funny story. In two thousand four, I was a 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.680 research channelist and I went to see Netflix and read 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:47.000 Hastings told us that when he reached seven point five 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.640 percent penetration in the Bay Area, first Blockbuster was shut 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:52.680 down and he told us that when I get to 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:55.720 seven and a half to ten percent penetration nationally, the 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.720 Blockbuster will go out of business, and that exactly happened. 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:03.919 And then in advertising business, when Google and Facebook got 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:08.919 ten percent of digital ad dollar, we saw an excellented disruption. 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.600 And now digital advertising is forty percent of all advertising. 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.480 And if you look at online retail is now ten 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.760 percent of overall retail sales. So I believe that in 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.560 next ten to fifteen years, online retail of it. So 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:25.480 we're going to see excellent depreciation because the seven and 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.720 a half to ten percent is the magic number when 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:31.280 things start really falling apart. And so how do you 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.440 capture that slice of it? You've been doing this even 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.840 live for just a few months. Now, what are you 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.960 learning about the marketplace that maybe you didn't know going 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:43.879 into it? Yeah, I think in marketplace what's really missing 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.080 is a lifestyle e commerce destination. Right, So if you 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:51.440 need your commodity disposable utility product, Amazon is phenomenon. And 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:53.639 if you need your luxury product, you know, like you 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.080 want to buy Lucci Bucchie bag or weave a turn 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:57.919 bag that you buy once a year, or you are 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.800 a point one percent of world's population. That's all you buy. 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:03.080 You know, you have a great relationship with those very 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:06.560 expensive brands. They think about it for your everyday luxury product, 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:09.120 you know, for everyday lifestyle product, there is no real 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:11.400 destination to go. You know, you go to other brick 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:13.800 and motor stores, or you go to this boutique place. Uh. 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:16.639 And that's also happening at a time that we're seeing 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.080 explosion of director consumer brands. Right everybody is built saying 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:23.159 direct to consumer brands. So there is no place for 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:27.400 consumers to go find discover new brands, find the brands 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.480 all out and discover new brands. So we are creating 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.320 a brand discovery platform where you can find all the 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:35.800 cool brands for your everyday luxury plant. And with the 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:39.280 convenience of Amazon, we now have the fastest free, fastest 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.639 free online shipping in the marketplace, free one day shipping. 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:45.520 We put our customers Support number on the top so 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:47.560 that if you are going to call, you can talk 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:50.080 to our customers, you know, and I read every customers 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:53.800 support emails, and so we really stand for convenience, we 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:57.200 stand for quality, and we stand for discovery. One of 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.520 the ways that you are of grabbing share. It seems 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:03.679 that through influencers that is well known to a lot 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:06.920 of the influencers in this room. What have you learned 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:10.760 about them? Because it's not so easy to identify the 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:14.320 right people to figure out the right essentially business model 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:18.520 around that, and it's not inexpensive. Sometimes, yeah, we're not 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:21.520 doing that much with you know, uh, influences. To be 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:26.200 completely honest with you, I have a philosophy is do 0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:29.800 completely opposite what the world is doing. You know, if 0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:31.360 you look at in New York City, you will see 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:34.159 our outdoor campaign in the taxi top or if you 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:37.199 take the subway, you know, you will see a very 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:42.080 sharp brand train. You know. I think so fundamentally, I 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:48.040 believe that consumers are smart and if and they understand 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:51.840 the authenticity, you know, and and and the thing is 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:55.760 that if influencers are too commercial and they're promoting too 0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:59.479 much of the product, I think it doesn't convert very well. 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:03.399 So you really really have to understand that when you 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:08.240 engage with the influences is an authentic relationship, because I 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:12.119 think you really really have to appreciate that if you 0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:14.639 push your product in an inauthentic way, it's actually a 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:17.520 huge turnoff for consumers because consumers know that you're trying 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.440 to do them right. You know the bus When we 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:22.560 started the company, we call it very Shop and what 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:25.879 is very Shop Verified shop because we wanted to build trust. 0:26:26.000 --> 0:26:28.200 You know, the world is going from fake news to 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:31.680 fake people to fake product, and we wanted to build 0:26:31.720 --> 0:26:34.800 this trusted platform. And and so you want to do 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:36.600 marketing that you want to engage in a marketing in 0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:38.960 the trusted way? And is it right? One million shoppers 0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:40.960 or not yet? By the by the end of the year, 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:42.600 you have a free one day shipping right now, but 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:44.359 no in terms of the number of shoppers that are 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:46.000 on your site right now? Oh yeah, I think by 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:50.159 year and we'll have a million unique shoppers on a 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:53.800 monthly basis. Alright, so we need to switch. Yeah, we 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:57.720 gotta switch. Um. When you talk about turnoffs, one of 0:26:57.720 --> 0:26:59.840 the biggest turnoffs it feels like for the market this 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:02.240 year and for a lot of people, was we work. 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:04.879 You've got some thoughts on this. You've been watching this 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:08.080 market as a banker, as an executive, as an entrepreneur. 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:11.399 What happened? What went wrong? As you just still it 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:16.439 down with we work? Um, the one word is corporate grid. Right. Uh. 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:20.080 I think the key thing is whenever we give someone money, 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:23.040 you give them your trust. It is a fundamental thing 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:27.440 that people don't appreciate that that when an investors are 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.080 forget about investor your friend or your parents or your 0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:34.560 uncle or and investors give you money, they give you 0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:38.200 the trust and and when you take that money, you 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.879 have a responsibility. You have a responsibility to live by 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.240 the trust they give it to you. And and I 0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:48.840 think oftentime we saw that the corporate executives don't appreciate 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:52.840 the trust that investors give it to them. And and 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:57.400 uh at we work, we saw the gross, gross negligence 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:01.480 of that trust and they by Adam Newman executive level, yes, 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:05.159 and the corporate greed is to a level that fundamentally 0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:09.720 I didn't see the since the world of well, what 0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.440 about the role of soft bank in this, right, the 0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:14.840 big investor obviously, and we work, and what about the 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:17.400 role of investment bankers? Certainly when they tried to take 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:20.040 it public and obviously all of a sudden, all these 0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:24.840 issues came out. Yeah, you know, responsibility of investment bankers. 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:29.440 So two different questions, you know, I think, look, I 0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:32.240 think soft bank as an investors, you have to make 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:36.359 two decisions right. One you have to analyze the investment 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:39.960 as a scandal and investment opportunity. And we can argue 0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:42.480 whether we work with a good investment or a bad 0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:49.040 investment from an investment lens perspective, But what soft bank? 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:51.080 And as an investors, you always have to trust the 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:53.760 management and you give them the money, and if they 0:28:53.960 --> 0:28:56.840 don't follow through it, you know, I think it's very 0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:00.720 difficult for an investors. So I actually sympathize with slob Bank. 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.680 I know everybody blames Sobbank, but I actually sympathize with 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.840 subbank because they gave money to someone who completely tar 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:11.600 around and trying to I didn't respect their trust. And Uh. 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:15.640 With regards to Investment Bank, look, I think you know, 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:19.720 clearly Investment Bank could have hired standard of due diligence. 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:21.600 But you know the good news is they did the 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:25.720 due diligence and they disclosed all this information we found, Like, 0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:27.840 do you feel like it was too late in the process. 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:30.040 This is a company that was around for a while. 0:29:30.600 --> 0:29:33.920 I think Investment Banks they couldn't have disclosed before the 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.400 filing anywhere because the company would not let them disclose 0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:38.920 it and that was very shop co founder Imran Khan 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:42.160 speaking with Carol Master and myself at Bloomberg's Sooner than 0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:45.840 You Think Summit, just a couple of weeks ago. As 0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:49.360 so many things seemed to do these days, this next 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:54.040 story started with a tweet, a series of tweets. Really uh, 0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:57.040 and it was all about credit cards. It took on 0:29:57.120 --> 0:29:59.760 a life of its own over the next several days, 0:30:00.320 --> 0:30:06.800 ensnaring in some ways Apple, Goldman, Sachs, the credit card industry, misogyny, algorithms, 0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:09.440 all of it. Uh. We're gonna get into that with 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:13.560 Shri Nadaraja and he covers Goldman and Wall Street for Bloomberg. 0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:18.920 This credit card hailed as this revolutionary thing, and yet 0:30:19.200 --> 0:30:23.200 over last weekend it took on a different tone. What happened, right? 0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:25.320 I mean this all started with a series of tweets 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:28.920 from a tech entrepreneur, David Hanson, who applied to the 0:30:28.960 --> 0:30:32.880 Apple Card and started complaining that his credit limit was 0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:35.480 twenty times the size of his wife's credit limit, even 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:39.640 though both of them share the same finances, have joined accounts, 0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:42.720 same spending power, had the same income. When it came 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:44.680 to the field, when Apple Card was trying to determine 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.320 the credit limit, and yet there was this huge disparity. 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:51.280 Post immediately gained traction online. A lot of people shared 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:54.240 similar experiences and to add insult to engineer and perhaps 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:56.680 the embarrassing bit here for Apple was Apple co founder 0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.360 Steve wasn't the exit Wait a minute, I faced the 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:02.520 same issue before you know it, a regulator saying we 0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:05.520 want to figure out how these credit risk assessment tools work. 0:31:05.680 --> 0:31:07.720 We're going to probe Goldman, and we're going to probe 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:10.160 this Apple god issue to see if there are some 0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:13.320 biases in the algorithm. So as an algorithm, But how 0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:17.000 much blame does Goldman have to take here? Is it 0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:19.320 just the algo or you know, is there something that 0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:22.640 Goldman can really do to fix this? Look In many ways, 0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:26.560 I truly believe that Apple and Goldman to market names 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:28.720 in the world of tech and finance. But what you 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:32.200 have here is those two have become lightning rods over 0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:34.600 an issue that has been bubbling for a while. People 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:37.000 have tried to figure out as there has been this 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:41.000 mission creep off tech in the financial services space is 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:44.560 trying to figure out that innovation keeps up with the 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:47.720 important regulatory factors need to make sure that it doesn't 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:50.560 come with its own set of biases. Computers are supposed 0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:53.680 to stamp out human risk and those errors, but in 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:56.520 other ways, are they sort of reinforcing some of the 0:31:56.600 --> 0:31:58.640 issues we faced for a long time. And that's what 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:00.720 folks are trying to figure out. So it's possibly not 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:03.600 just limited to Goldman. It probably affects a largest set 0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:06.520 of the credit card industry. But for Goldman, this is 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:09.640 baptism by fire. Remember they haven't done this for long. 0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:13.000 Consumer facing businesses are new for them, and that's why 0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:15.560 maybe they are facing this sort of a unique challenge 0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.280 in a way right and and taking a step back. 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:21.720 I mean, let's remind people this card was hailed in 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:24.680 many ways for all the reasons you just described. Treat 0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:28.280 this notion that Apple of course, anything it puts its 0:32:28.400 --> 0:32:31.000 name on, if it's getting into a new business, people 0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:34.320 are paying attention Goldman, as you say, getting into the 0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:37.040 consumer business in a new and different way and partnering 0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:41.280 with Apple. This was unveiled by relatively new CEO David Solomon, 0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:45.240 I believe, with Tim Cook at a big Apple UH meeting, 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.240 which have you know, sort of drama and pomp and 0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:51.720 circumstances all their own. What was this meant to be 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.320 in the market, This card, this is supposed to be 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:57.920 something revolutionary in many ways, right. Both David Solomon and 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:00.680 Tim Cook in their respective learning school all said this 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:03.640 is the most successful credit card launch ever. I mean, 0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:05.840 they didn't really back it up with many statistics, but 0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:09.680 for now we'll take them for what they said. It's 0:33:09.720 --> 0:33:12.600 only two months in. We we've seen that they've already 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.400 made more than ten billion in loan well not loans, 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.280 but credit lines, so it's clearly had a good start. 0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:20.480 This was supposed to be the time when they could 0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:22.640 sort of unwind and celebrate the fact that they got 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:26.280 a good launching instead facing this sort of mini crisis. 0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:32.160 What actual tangible penalty perhaps could Goldman actually face here? 0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:34.160 Of course they're being probed, but is there a law 0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:36.800 that they are potentially breaking and that they're going to 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:40.720 get in trouble? Part of and trying to answer that question, 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:42.680 you also have to think about what's the precedent here? 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:45.800 And I have to think that when you're looking into 0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:49.760 Gothmic fairness, this all has to be fairly new. It's 0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:51.920 people have been talking about it for a while, but 0:33:52.000 --> 0:33:54.840 it is starting to gain more attention now. In June, 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:57.400 you had lawmakers and d C saying, we want to 0:33:57.440 --> 0:34:00.479 make sure that fair lending practices are being applied, uh, 0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:02.240 and make sure that there are no issues with that. 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:04.000 So you don't really know why, Hey, this is gonna 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:06.080 be a ten million dollar fine or fifty million all fine, 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:08.359 slap on the race or something worse. We really don't 0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:11.960 know anything about that. And what makes it worse is Goldman, 0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:15.200 for instance, says, there's no discrimination. Guys, we're not, you know, 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:18.200 classifying by race or gender and taking decisions according to that. 0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:21.840 There is no intentional bias on our part. But consumer 0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:24.960 advocates are saying that's part of the problem. It doesn't 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:28.200 have to be intentional bias. If it was intentional bias 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:31.759 in a civil society, hopefully it's easy to spot and 0:34:31.960 --> 0:34:35.080 root out. It's the unintentional bias that's harder. It becomes 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:38.680 deeply entrenched and by the time you become alert to 0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:40.680 the problem, you can't just flick a switch and say, 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:43.640 you know what, let's reverse all this. And I think 0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:46.800 that's that's the issue that Goldman and Apple have to 0:34:46.880 --> 0:34:49.040 deal with here. That's the issue A lot of the 0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:52.560 financial services companies have to deal with going forward as 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:55.600 they embraced technology more and more because it does obviously 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.239 come with several benefits. Well, and another question that's just 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:00.239 raised for me and all of this, says Jason said, 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:03.920 the inputs matter, but also algorithms kind of can teach themselves. 0:35:04.040 --> 0:35:07.359 I mean, how do you control a self learning thing? 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.320 That's actually very fascinating because a lot of the discussion 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:13.600 has revolved around this. You obviously control the fact as 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:17.960 you put into the system, but many data scientists who 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:19.960 have been binding on this on social media have said 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:23.600 it is very hard to sort of reverse engineer why 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:26.200 a decision was ultimately made as to why did the 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:28.840 machine spit out the decision it did. You have a 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:31.120 general sense, but it's very hard to get a very 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.680 precise sense. And that's Shrie not a Rajan covering a 0:35:34.880 --> 0:35:38.160 Goldman a different way this week, at different type of 0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:43.080 story because this collaboration Kayleie with Apple much heralded, very 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:47.200 successful in some ways, but man, that story really took 0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:48.920 a turn. I mean, this was supposed to be what 0:35:49.000 --> 0:35:51.440 they were calling the most successful credit card launch of 0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:54.879 all time. Maybe that's not the case, all right, Jason, 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:56.600 we've been talking a lot about we Work lately, and 0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:00.000 it's not just about corporate governance, a soft bank confusion, 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:01.919 in anything like that. Now we're going to talk about 0:36:02.040 --> 0:36:05.160 toxic phone booths, which is a sentence I never thought 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:07.719 I would say. I didn't either, And when this story 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:10.680 first broke a couple of weeks ago, I just thought, Wow, 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:13.040 these guys can't catch a break. And then it just 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:15.880 becomes this emblem. In many ways, Ellen Huett has been 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:19.480 following every twist and turn in and out of the 0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:22.200 phone booth as where she joins us from San Francisco. 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:26.759 So talk to us about these phone booths, because it's 0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:30.560 become kind of a thing. Yeah, and and same same 0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:32.960 as you said, Jason. I also had this thought when 0:36:32.960 --> 0:36:34.960 I first read about the phone boosts. You know, they 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:40.160 announced this issue first in mid October, that they had, 0:36:40.280 --> 0:36:43.480 you know, thousands of phone booths that potentially had elevated 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:47.239 levels of formaldehyde, which is a carcinogen um in their 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:50.400 offices in US and Canada. I remember thinking like it 0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:53.279 was on top of so much other bad news about 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:55.160 we work. You you had to feel pretty bad for them. 0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:58.040 It seemed like an issue, but uh, you know, as 0:36:58.080 --> 0:36:59.880 we spent some time in the weeks following trying to 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.440 figure out what exactly happened. You know, I think you 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:06.520 can trace some of the uh, some of the forces 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:09.320 at play at we Work that led to possibly this 0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:12.480 outcome of of these toxic phone booths. So this, you know, 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.480 the story starts, at least from our point of view 0:37:14.800 --> 0:37:18.439 in October when this announcement was made, But the story 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:20.759 in many ways actually begins a lot earlier, which is 0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:24.279 when we Work decided to design in house their own 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:27.440 sound insulated phone booths. So these are important pieces of 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:31.200 furniture for we Work offices because their offices are usually 0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:33.200 open plan. You know, if any of you working in 0:37:33.200 --> 0:37:35.080 an open plan office, you know, it can be hard 0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:38.120 to make a private phone call that other people can't here, 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:39.960 and maybe if you don't want to bother your neighbors 0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:42.879 or anything like that. So so we Work makes these 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:45.440 phone booths that are sort of single person only. They're 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:47.640 about the size of say an airplane bathroom, and have 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:49.719 a door that fold in the same way. You can 0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:52.880 step inside, sound insulated and you can make phone call 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:55.839 or maybe like take a meeting. And and they were 0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:58.640 setting these up, you know, along hallways and in corners 0:37:58.680 --> 0:38:01.840 of their offices to give people uh private space. And 0:38:02.560 --> 0:38:05.799 they were so important to we work that we work 0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:09.080 decided to actually start designing them themselves in house, as 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:12.000 opposed to like buying them elsewhere. Um and and they 0:38:12.040 --> 0:38:13.799 were at first very proud of this. You know, there 0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:16.200 are other stories, and there's a past story and Fast 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:18.320 Company from about a year ago in which one of 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.480 their executives talks about how great it is that they 0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:23.520 did this their own design for the phone booths. Um 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:25.839 and it turns out, you know, it gets a little 0:38:26.200 --> 0:38:27.640 you know, we we did a lot of research and 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:30.040 reporting and discovered, you know, there's kind of a complicated 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:34.440 supply chain at play. But basically we worked designs the 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.120 phone booth and then gets manufacturers in different parts of 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.560 the world to make the phone booth. And one of 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:43.040 their manufacturers, or maybe the only one in the U. 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.120 S And Canada, was a company called Premier XD. It's 0:38:46.120 --> 0:38:48.600 a company that makes commercial fixtures for the likes of 0:38:48.680 --> 0:38:51.560 Starbucks and other companies. You know, those kiosks that you 0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:54.160 might see in like a grocery store. They were making 0:38:54.200 --> 0:38:57.120 these phone booths and they um, you know that this 0:38:57.360 --> 0:38:59.680 was not you know, publicly known, but something that we 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:01.879 talked about with former employees and that kind of thing. 0:39:02.400 --> 0:39:04.839 And they were making these phone boots. Everything seemed fine 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:09.480 until early summer when one of we Work's biggest customers, UBS, 0:39:09.600 --> 0:39:11.600 which had used we worked, to redesign one of its 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:15.120 headquarters in New Jersey. Some of the employees at the 0:39:15.280 --> 0:39:18.839 UBS office noticed this phone booths smell funny, like there's 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:21.239 a weird smell when I'm in them, or maybe I 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:25.080 have some eye irritation, and they alerted their managers. Company 0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:28.800 did a test and found these elevated levels of formaldehyde. 0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:31.520 So this is early summer, and keep in mind, we 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:34.960 worked and announced the formaldehyde issue until mid October, so 0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:38.399 there's several months at play here where there's UM, there's 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:41.640 just you know, UBS had told we work at the issue. 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:44.399 We work actually starts talking to vendors in August about 0:39:44.400 --> 0:39:48.280 maybe replacing or replacing future phone booths with new ones. 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:51.960 UM and then it kind of and actually in September, Premier, 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:54.520 the maker of the phone boots, actually suddenly shuts down 0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:57.160 with no warning. Some of its workers are less stranded 0:39:57.200 --> 0:39:59.960 with no severance. Uh, there's all sorts of there's kind 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:03.320 of a like in in the background, like a series 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:05.600 of events that leads up to the announcement of the 0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:07.200 phone booth. And that's kind of what we get into 0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:10.640 in this story. Well, and now we work as reinstalling 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:13.080 phone Boost of the exact same design, just now a 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:15.719 different manufacturer. By telling people won't wait, don't go in yet, 0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:19.680 we're not entirely sure they're safe. They're still holding some 0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:22.640 of the existing phone booths for further testing. I think, 0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:25.279 you know, into their credit, they're being very careful, but 0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:28.239 it does seem like they also took some time to 0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:31.400 announce to their major you know, to their customers in 0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:33.880 their coworking spaces, that that there was an issue with 0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:36.479 these phone booths. And so there are customers who are upset. 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:39.040 They feel like their health has been put at risk 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:41.520 by something that they totally didn't expect, which was the 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:43.839 phone booth that they use at work, maybe to get 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:45.759 a private moment or to take a phone call, or 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.040 to hold meetings in I mean, can you talk about 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:51.360 the uphill climb that the future CEO of the companies 0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:53.400 has to face here? I mean, what do where do 0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:57.000 they start? It just seems like such a difficult job 0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:59.839 and one that will be watched very carefully. I think 0:40:59.880 --> 0:41:04.280 we've seen similar pattern play out with Dara across Broshai 0:41:04.440 --> 0:41:07.720 at Uber. You know, he's taking over the troubled company 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:11.200 from a very public CEO, someone who had a lot 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:13.880 of ties to the spirit of the company as the founder, 0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:16.560 and then um, you know, was sort of outstand in 0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:20.560 a dramatic way. So anyone who steps into the top 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:22.399 job that we work is certainly going to be thinking 0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:25.759 about what happened at Uber and and they're going to 0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:29.120 be facing I think similar problems having to establish kind 0:41:29.120 --> 0:41:31.920 of a new culture that still feels you know, um, 0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:35.200 comforting to existing employees and making them want to stay 0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:38.440 because there you know, as the company gets ready to 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:43.040 um continue to do layoffs, they are facing really bad morale. 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:45.400 You know, every time I talked to current WE Work employees, 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:49.360 they tell me people aren't coming into work, People are scared, 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:52.360 people are feeling unmotivated, and you can't blame them. They 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:55.040 have had a lot of shifts of leadership at the top. 0:41:55.400 --> 0:41:58.759 The future of the company feels unsure, even though of 0:41:58.880 --> 0:42:00.920 course leadership is saying we're going to continue on and 0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:03.520 we're going to become profitable and the company's product is 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:06.239 still really strong. You know, I think most employees believe that, 0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:08.680 but you have to imagine a lot of them are 0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:11.480 scared for their personal futures. So I think the new 0:42:11.560 --> 0:42:13.400 CEO is going to have to figure out how to 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:16.520 motivate workers, how to cut a lot of costs, how 0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:18.880 to get um you know, future investors thinking that this 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:21.200 company still has a lot ahead of it. And that 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:23.799 was Ellen Hewitt. I mean, Jason, it's just hit after 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:26.120 hit after hit for we Work at this point. And 0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:29.120 add to that, Kaylee, the news from Friday sources telling 0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:32.600 Bloomberg that we Work is drawing scrutiny from the SEC 0:42:33.400 --> 0:42:36.399 over whether the company violated financial rules in the run 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.560 up to its failed I po. Yeah, there is still 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:40.960 the open question of where does we Work go from 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:42.279 here and what's it going to look like at the 0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:44.840 end of the day. Earlier this week, I had a 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:47.440 chance to sit down with Admiral Mike Mullen. It was 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:50.359 ahead of the second Annual Summit on Security hosted at 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.520 the nine eleven Memorial and Museum, and Bloomberg, we should 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.760 point out, was a media sponsor of that event. Mullen 0:42:56.920 --> 0:42:59.279 he served as the Chairman of the Joint chiefs of 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:02.920 Staff for pre students Bush and Obama from two thousand 0:43:03.040 --> 0:43:06.640 seven to eleven. He was in the situation room with 0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:10.399 President Obama when Seal Team six killed the world's most 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:13.840 wanted terrorist, Osama bin Laden. Well, we had been hunting 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:20.800 for Bin Laden for intensely for years and um and 0:43:20.880 --> 0:43:24.359 I think just the fact that it took so long, Uh, 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:28.560 it took a decade to to get to that culminating 0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:32.160 point is indicative of how difficult to target he was 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:35.640 and the care with which he took to hide and 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:39.920 those around him. Um. Uh And it was an incredibly 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:43.040 intense effort to do that. Obviously, we were doing other things. 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:44.600 We had a war in Iraq, we had a war 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:49.040 in Afghanistan, but we never lost focus. And in one 0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:52.279 of the one of the groups I'd like to give 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:56.160 credit to, uh there was a special I think run 0:43:56.640 --> 0:44:01.239 on CNN a few years ago the four ladies in 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:05.480 the agency who in the late eighties really started and 0:44:05.680 --> 0:44:08.760 stayed after Bin Laden when they had no resources. Nobody 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:11.000 was paying much attention to him, and so it had 0:44:11.040 --> 0:44:14.120 been going on for a long long time. Uh and 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:18.719 uh and and then it culminated obviously in better intelligence 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:22.920 and in the last few months. Really I didn't get 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:27.400 involved until January in terms of what the possibilities might be. 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:31.520 And that was right because one of my concerns was 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:34.520 all of our concern was if there had been any 0:44:34.560 --> 0:44:37.479 indication that we knew he would have he would have left. 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:41.359 And in fact, his his principal advisors were telling him 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:44.480 in that time frame that we actually killed him, it 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:46.560 was time to go. They were concerned he'd been there 0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:49.239 too long and they needed to move. So had it 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:53.160 not happened that night, it could have been another decade 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:55.040 before we found him. And what was that night? Like? 0:44:56.200 --> 0:44:59.480 People asked me of that famous picture, uh, And one 0:44:59.480 --> 0:45:01.080 of the reasons I think it's famous is because it 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:04.320 really does capture the moment and it was very, very tense. 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:06.960 That said, it was a decision, and it was a 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:10.240 courageous decision from my perspective on a part of President 0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:12.920 Obama because we didn't actually know he was there. We 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:16.320 had lots of circumstantial evidence. I viewed it as a 0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:22.600 bet the presidency. UH. Decision that the president made um 0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:27.759 and UH. And the night itself, the actual night of 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:33.759 the killing, was we were into that operation, uh, you know, 0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:35.920 for two a couple of days at that point, so 0:45:36.040 --> 0:45:39.480 it had it had been going for some time, and 0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:46.040 there had been rehearsals and lots of preparation go on 0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:49.520 for literally four months in the event that we could 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:53.600 pin him down. So uh we we had planned uh 0:45:54.040 --> 0:45:59.400 this down to a level of detail that would in 0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:02.160 the end allow us to kill him. But one of 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:05.320 the things I'm I like to remind people of is 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:09.440 that same night in Afghanistan, there were fourteen other missions 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:14.680 similar to that that were that were carried out. And 0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:18.120 while strategically this one certainly had the highest risk, but 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:21.239 we have done thousands and thousands and thousands of these 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:24.400 missions over the course of the years that we had 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:27.800 been fighting. So I had every expectation that if he 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:29.520 was there, we were going to either be able to 0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:33.880 capture or kill him. That said, it was tense, and 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.160 it wasn't over until it was over. And by that 0:46:37.360 --> 0:46:40.080 I mean literally not just the killing him or getting 0:46:40.120 --> 0:46:44.080 them out and getting him back into Afghanistan, taking his 0:46:44.239 --> 0:46:49.000 DNA and positively identifying him, getting him on a helicopter, 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:51.800 flying him through Pakistani airspace, and getting him out to 0:46:51.840 --> 0:46:55.200 a carry at sea. Where he could be buried consistent 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:58.440 with his beliefs, his religious beliefs, which is what we did. 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:05.160 And when you think about that moment and you fast 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:09.920 forward to today, what has it ultimately meant for the 0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:13.280 war in terror which has not ended in many ways 0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:16.319 and has only become in some ways more complicated. Well, 0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:20.000 I think it in terms of having a huge impact 0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:23.359 on the Alcada organization. It did when you take out 0:47:23.920 --> 0:47:27.640 a leader like that, just as the very recent killing 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:31.600 of bagh Daddy has had a big impact on the 0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.600 ISIS organization. But it doesn't make the ideas go away. 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:37.800 It doesn't make the aspiration go away. Uh, And it 0:47:37.920 --> 0:47:43.479 hasn't with al Qaeda, nor has bagh Daddy's death done 0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:46.200 that with ISIS. And so I think we have to 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:48.920 stay at this. We still we still are in a 0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:53.760 situation where where we are seen as the evil empire, 0:47:53.800 --> 0:47:57.600 if you will, from the terrorists perspective, and they continue 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:00.920 to come after us. And that was old Mike Mullen, 0:48:01.000 --> 0:48:03.040 former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You can 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.799 hear our entire conversation. It's this week's Bloomberg Business Week 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:10.080 Extra podcast, and I should point out Michael Bloomberg, the 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:13.200 founder and majority owner of Bloomberg News parent Bloomberg Gulp. 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:16.360 He is the chairman of the nine eleven Memorial and Museum. 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:20.279 So Kaylee, the holidays are right around the corner. What 0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:25.640 a shopping list we have here in Bloomberg Pursuits. I 0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:28.719 want everything on this last If you buy everything on 0:48:28.840 --> 0:48:30.839 the list, you end up broke. So it's just an 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:33.680 inspiration list, all right. So that's Chris Rouser, he's here 0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:38.080 with us, the editor of Pursuits, walking is through it all. 0:48:38.280 --> 0:48:40.600 So where do you want to start because I'll take 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:43.279 one of each. Yeah. So we every year we try 0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:44.840 to think of a theme for our gift guide, and 0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:47.640 this year the theme is things that are handmade. Um, 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:50.040 it's always nice to give someone something that you know 0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:52.360 a lot of time went into it, maybe a master 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:55.160 craftsman worked on it. So on the first page of 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:58.640 the section, we have this amazing marketry poker set. So 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:01.880 it's a box with eight with a bunch of pieces, 0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:05.080 like eight hundred pieces cards and stuff. And it's all 0:49:05.239 --> 0:49:06.960 made with market tree, which is a little slivers of 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:11.120 wood which are inlaid into the box. Um, and it's uh, 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:13.480 you know, it's pounds. It's not cheap, but it's one 0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:15.600 of fifteen, so you know, not many people will have it, 0:49:16.680 --> 0:49:18.960 and so how do you go about acquiring one of 0:49:19.000 --> 0:49:21.759 these if there's only fifteen out there? So super competitive? 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:24.400 You reach out to the artist, Alexander Llewellen. She's in 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:27.439 the UK, and you know she's making fifteen of these, 0:49:27.600 --> 0:49:30.240 but she she makes other versions. She also makes backgammon 0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:31.960 sets and stuff. So you reach out, see what she's 0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:34.560 got and uh, give it to a friend. Alright, So 0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:38.200 a fan favorite, apparently down on the pursuit's desk was 0:49:38.760 --> 0:49:43.360 the claw for crustaceans. It's the pick of the critter. 0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:48.640 You know, uh, what is this? Okay, So, if you 0:49:48.800 --> 0:49:51.800 are a mainer like me, you've grown up eating lobster 0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:54.799 and you've probably used many different kinds of lobster picks. 0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:57.239 They're a little narrow forks that go into like the 0:49:57.360 --> 0:49:59.120 legs are a narrow part of the shell to pull 0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:01.960 out meat. A lot of them aren't actually that well designed. 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:04.080 Often you get them their plastic in a restaurant. So 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:07.440 this jeweler, Janey Cruise Garnett, who works out of the 0:50:07.480 --> 0:50:10.080 Upper East Side, came by the office and was showing 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:13.320 us her wear since she had these silver hand carved 0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:17.160 lobster picks, which are so ingenious and also expensive. They 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:20.040 have a little clamshell carved into them so you can 0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:22.560 put your thumb in it. They're very textures so they 0:50:22.600 --> 0:50:25.600 don't become slippery when they get covered in butter. And 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:27.360 at the end of the little fork they have a 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:30.240 little harpoon hook which is really which actually most lobster 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:32.440 picks don't have, so when you reach in to get 0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:34.800 the meat, it comes out really easily. I know that 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:37.720 sounds crazy, but if you're a lobster person, this item 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:40.359 does not exist anywhere else and it's perfect. So you've 0:50:40.360 --> 0:50:42.359 had the chance to eat lobster with set items, yes, 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:44.440 and it makes a difference. Yeah, I mean it's you know, 0:50:44.520 --> 0:50:46.600 it's a special occasion item, right. They are made of 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.919 silver and there are two five dollars each, so it's 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:52.439 you don't want to lose them, right, Yeah, So you're 0:50:52.640 --> 0:50:55.840 that that's a table setting that is gonna set you 0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:59.120 back before you even go by your lobster, right, Yeah. 0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:00.960 And those are the time of things that go missing 0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:04.080 after a dinner party totally. You know, you're serving some 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:07.120 nice wine all right, So maybe while you're doing all that, 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:12.200 you're playing a record because not Yeah, you know vinyl 0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:14.680 every year it gets bigger and bigger. Um. And so 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:18.680 we found a record player that's handmade that is heavier 0:51:18.760 --> 0:51:22.120 than ever. It's actually seventy two pounds and it's made 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.719 by this guy, Tyler Hayes. The company is B D 0:51:24.880 --> 0:51:28.480 DW in Philadelphia and he hand makes every part of it. 0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:31.680 The platter is marble, which is why it costs, which 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:34.000 is why it's so heavy. Um. And the carcass, which 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:35.960 is what they call sort of the exterior is made 0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:38.400 of wood. It's hand painted. It's really beautiful, got an 0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:42.359 incredible sound, and it makes a very impactful gift. Well, 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:44.000 and it's a design piece just as much as it 0:51:44.120 --> 0:51:46.040 is an audio piece. It looks very cool. It looks 0:51:46.040 --> 0:51:47.680 like it's at a Star Wars kind of and it'll 0:51:47.719 --> 0:51:52.240 set you back just to meet. Yeah, it's a bargain 0:51:52.440 --> 0:51:55.759 for sure. Also want to smell good, of course, but 0:51:56.080 --> 0:51:59.360 this really you headline this a drop of perfume, You 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:01.440 really are talking about a very small amount is a 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:05.359 very small amount of perfume. The perfume company is called 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:09.320 Regime de Fleur and they source these really exotic ingredients 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:11.279 from around the world, and they're so rare that they 0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:14.040 actually can't make the perfume every year because they can't 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:17.040 get all of the ingredients necessarily to buy this little 0:52:17.080 --> 0:52:19.359 tiny bottle. It's two inches high. It's like the size 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:21.800 of a paper clip. But it has a very strong, 0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:25.239 very beautiful scent that's very unusual. And the bottles are 0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:27.879 hand painted by the artist. And it'll set you back 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:32.880 dollars for eight millileaders. This is a real problem. This 0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:35.759 is shocking. I mean, you get how many uses out 0:52:35.800 --> 0:52:38.160 of this? You only use a very very small amount, 0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:39.719 so it actually lasts a long time. And think about 0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:41.080 how long it takes you to get through a bottle 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:45.440 of perfume. Actually it takes a long time. Alright, your listeners, 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:49.640 you cannot you cannot see Jason's face, but it is 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:52.480 my skeptical face. I think is the way to put 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:54.920 all right. So, after all that, I would love a drink, 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:59.080 just a nice drink, but it doesn't I can't just 0:52:59.200 --> 0:53:02.520 have my drinking just anything. Yeah, So we found this 0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:07.240 company St. Louis, which since eighties six has been making 0:53:08.239 --> 0:53:12.080 has been handmaking glassware for like French Royalty. UM and 0:53:12.480 --> 0:53:15.480 they just started. They made a collection of glassware that 0:53:15.520 --> 0:53:18.440 they're just releasing for their first time altogether. UM and 0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:22.440 it's they're really beautiful. They're sort of colored glass. And 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:25.560 we recommend that you maybe give the glasses to somebody 0:53:25.719 --> 0:53:29.200 with a bottle of auk, which is a new kind 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:31.600 of liquor. It's made by a liquor company called Empirical 0:53:31.719 --> 0:53:34.520 Spirits UH and it's UM. It has a sort of 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:37.880 a mescal ish flavor. It's very smokey. It's distilled with 0:53:38.520 --> 0:53:43.760 UH with passia chili's UM. It's not actually a mescal, 0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:45.920 but it tastes like it. And it's just an unusual thing. 0:53:45.960 --> 0:53:47.520 And it's just great to give somebody. If you're giving 0:53:47.520 --> 0:53:49.759 somebody a glass or a bowl, it's great to give 0:53:49.840 --> 0:53:52.080 something to go into it right well, and on those 0:53:52.120 --> 0:53:54.200 glasses too, just because this is all about those handmade 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:57.439 gifts and the craftsmanship. It takes fifteen workers ten days 0:53:57.480 --> 0:54:01.000 to shape one of these. This is intricate stuff. Yeah, yeah, 0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:03.439 you know people are gonna put it in a special place. 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:08.560 And the glasses cost for a set, Yeah, for the set, Okay, 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:11.880 so that's just a bargain, all right. I want to 0:54:11.880 --> 0:54:14.320 go deep on this one because both Kaylee and I 0:54:14.440 --> 0:54:17.640 when we saw this next one, immediately went to frank 0:54:18.880 --> 0:54:21.320 House of Cards. This rowing machine, I think that was 0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:24.319 from season one actually was when you first see him, 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:30.080 and it is an arresting just piece of art in 0:54:30.280 --> 0:54:32.880 some ways that also doubles as a rowing machine. Right. 0:54:32.960 --> 0:54:35.520 So there are these water Rower Inc. Is this company 0:54:35.560 --> 0:54:38.399 and they make uh, these rowing machines that are made 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:41.920 with Appalachian hardwoods. And then the drum actually where the 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:44.719 normally it's a fan in the wind or in the air, 0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:47.279 is actually filled with water. So as you saw a 0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:49.840 House of Cards, when Frank is rowing, it has a 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:53.040 sort of soothing wishing sound. It's really beautiful. Um. And 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:55.840 you know these are becoming increasingly popular and popular, and 0:54:56.000 --> 0:54:58.839 rowing is becoming increasingly popular. It's because of cross fit. 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:01.560 It's also there's a bunch of rowing gyms, so you're 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:03.160 seeing more and more of these than houses. And it's 0:55:04.160 --> 0:55:06.680 so you know that's that's expensive, but it's not crazy 0:55:06.719 --> 0:55:08.560 for a piece of gym equipment less than a pelton. 0:55:09.040 --> 0:55:11.160 So there you go, less than a pelton. Uh, and 0:55:11.719 --> 0:55:14.600 it looks lovely and as you say, and I'm sure 0:55:14.640 --> 0:55:16.960 you guys considered a lot of different because I know 0:55:17.080 --> 0:55:19.800 you like exercise in the section, you probably considered a 0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:22.080 lot of different things. And this, as you say, sort 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:25.839 of checks all the boxes around craftsmanship. Yeah, it really does. 0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:28.520 It's except for the plastics for the drum with the water, 0:55:28.600 --> 0:55:30.720 everything is handmade, so they're all a little bit unique. 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.279 And I am a Finnish junkie like Jason is, and 0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:37.640 I hate rowing actually in college and I promised myself 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:38.960 I never would do it again. But I've been on 0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:40.960 one of these and they are really beautiful. And can 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:43.839 you row vigorously on it without you know, fearing damn? 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:50.040 Oh yeah, they're like indestructible. Wow. All right, So if 0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:52.480 you row it off, I'm going to skip ahead because 0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:56.280 what you're rowing off could be one of the most 0:55:57.880 --> 0:56:02.320 exquisite and ridiculous pastries that I have ever seen in 0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:04.520 my life. You did not bring us any which is 0:56:04.600 --> 0:56:07.080 a strike against you. It did not last long, and 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:09.120 I'm sure it went fast on the desk. Tell us, 0:56:09.719 --> 0:56:12.400 just give us the size and scope of this pastry. 0:56:12.600 --> 0:56:16.400 So a Queen emmon is Um is from Brittany in France, 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:20.800 and it's basically a Croissance, but it's sort of shaped 0:56:20.800 --> 0:56:23.040 in like a muffin shape, but it's formed like a croissant, 0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:25.000 which is layers of dough and butter. But then they 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:27.719 also add a ton of sugar in there, so it's 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:30.480 like a butter sugar bomb. And normally you get them 0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:32.719 kind of muffin size, but at men Raies of up 0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:36.120 Bread in San Francisco they make it um like cake size, 0:56:36.160 --> 0:56:38.239 so you get sort of an eight in huge one, 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:40.680 and since there's so much sugar on the bottom, it 0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:43.480 all caramelizes, so it's actually like sort of an ice 0:56:43.520 --> 0:56:46.439 skating rink of sugar on the bottom. And actually by weight, 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:50.480 so it's fives and by weight it's fifty butter and sugar, 0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:53.439 so there's two grams of sugar in these things. There's 0:56:53.440 --> 0:56:55.640 a DRAMs of sugar and a hundred grams of butter. 0:56:55.760 --> 0:57:00.480 Not at all unhealthy. You gotta row a lot plastic. 0:57:00.600 --> 0:57:03.919 You have no idea because I didn't bring you. Yeah, 0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:08.359 I really do have no idea. Interesting, yeah, interesting, um, 0:57:08.520 --> 0:57:11.319 all right, So if you're not rowing and you're not eating, 0:57:11.400 --> 0:57:13.800 maybe you're playing golf. That's sort of a middle ground. 0:57:14.000 --> 0:57:17.160 They're a beautiful putter or a set of putters that 0:57:17.480 --> 0:57:20.760 you feature in the magazine. Yeah, so you know, we talked. 0:57:20.760 --> 0:57:23.480 We talked about a lot of sports equipment, and with 0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:25.480 golf clubs, there's a lot of physics that go into 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:27.720 the swing clubs, right, so there's kind of mathematics that 0:57:27.800 --> 0:57:29.600 go into it. Um. But potters you can be a 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:32.240 little more creative with because it's actually much more personal preference. 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:34.680 You're not swinging that much. Um. And so we found 0:57:34.760 --> 0:57:37.360 this potter which is hand forged, and it has these 0:57:37.800 --> 0:57:41.400 inserts that are made through a Japanese process called makum 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:44.960 gan a uh and it's it's basically a process of 0:57:45.040 --> 0:57:47.560 folding together different kinds of different metals over and over 0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:50.840 and over and the it's so there are these inserts 0:57:50.960 --> 0:57:52.880 made through that process in the back of the putter, 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:56.240 and they look really beautiful. And it's a process that 0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:59.200 was used on the hilts of samurai swords. So if 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:01.640 you the more and powerful you were, the more times 0:58:01.680 --> 0:58:04.800 the medal was folded. Um and that. So you know, 0:58:04.880 --> 0:58:08.040 it's not really used much anymore, but it's in use 0:58:08.080 --> 0:58:10.200 in these putters, and people really become attached to it. 0:58:10.440 --> 0:58:12.880 That was pursued editor Chris Rouser and Jason, I did 0:58:12.960 --> 0:58:14.960 some math. Are you ready for this? Yes? If you 0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:17.120 buy one of each thing on that list, how much 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:25.919 you think that's gonna cost you more dollars? Are someone 0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:29.640 extra special for Christmas? Alright, it's gonna wrap up Bloomberg 0:58:29.680 --> 0:58:32.240 Business Week's weekend podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. 0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:35.040 I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Kaylee Lines and for Carol Masser. 0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:37.240 Be sure to tune into Bloomberg Business Took Radio live 0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:39.760 Monday through Friday, starting at two pm Wall Street Time. 0:58:39.880 --> 0:58:41.439 And if you can't catch us live, get our daily 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:44.000 podcast for the right home. Get that at Bloomberg dot 0:58:44.040 --> 0:58:46.920 com or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can 0:58:46.960 --> 0:58:49.320 get this week's edition of the magazine on newsstands now. 0:58:49.520 --> 0:58:51.960 We'll be back right here next week at the same time. 0:58:52.280 --> 0:58:53.400 This is Bloomberg