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Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants. Hutt's Giant The

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Speaker 1: Giants Mouble give me some job. Part of the Giants

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Speaker 1: podcast network. Let's roll.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another of the Giants Little podcast, brought to

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Speaker 2: you by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants. I

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Speaker 2: am John Schmelk, coming to you from the Hackensack Marine

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Speaker 2: Health podcast studio, Keep getting Better. Today's guest is former

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Speaker 2: NFL general manager now the CEO of Sumer Sports, Thomas,

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Speaker 2: to meet your off. And now we welcome in former

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Speaker 2: NFL general manager and the CEO of Sumer Sports, Thomas,

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Speaker 2: to meet your off Thomas.

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Speaker 1: How are you?

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Speaker 3: I am always good. Thanks for reaching out. It's an

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Speaker 3: energetic time, right You guys in New York have a

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Speaker 3: lot to do. I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we are at the center of the draft.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people are calling the Giants kind of

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Speaker 2: the fulcrum of the draft process, so let's start there.

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Speaker 2: And I think, as someone that's done this before and

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Speaker 2: built the draft board, I'm curious how you would approach this, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: When you're in a situation like the Giants where I

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Speaker 2: think they've addressed their short term quarterback need, like if

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Speaker 2: they don't walk away with a quarterback. They have two

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Speaker 2: guys that they feel comfortable playing, but you always want

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Speaker 2: to have that guy that can be your future long

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Speaker 2: term starter on the roster. But it's not a great

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Speaker 2: quarterback class. So you're picking third. Maybe not the best

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Speaker 2: year to be picking third if you need a quarterback.

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Speaker 2: So how would you approach the quarterback situation if you

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Speaker 2: were the Giants?

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Speaker 3: You're right, I mean it's not a great draft, not

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Speaker 3: saying that these guys aren't talented and don't have upside, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, talking about Kim Moore and talking about Shidarah

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Speaker 3: Sanders and then who is going to be the ultimate

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Speaker 3: third right next three, four and five in the draft.

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Speaker 3: But it is complicated, and when you're Joe Shane in

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Speaker 3: company coming off of the year that you had, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of pressure, of course from a city that

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Speaker 3: expects big things. So that aside, I mean whether we

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Speaker 3: say as general managers, that never affects us. I don't

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Speaker 3: think about the fan base and I don't think about

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Speaker 3: the media. The reality is it's always on your mind.

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Speaker 3: You are if you are a proud individual like Joe is.

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Speaker 3: He wants to do right, He wants his legacy to

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Speaker 3: be strong hair. So to answer your question, I think

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Speaker 3: what you need to do is you really need to

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Speaker 3: drill down which they have been on a guy like

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Speaker 3: ster Sanders and really decide on is this the person

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Speaker 3: that we need to take us into the future. We

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Speaker 3: know that that didn't happen in the past. Pick right,

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Speaker 3: and an organization that is looking for that quarterback. There

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Speaker 3: is a it is so important to come in this

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Speaker 3: year with a guy that's going to, in my mind

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Speaker 3: and help impact out the gate. We did it with

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Speaker 3: Matt Ryan in Atlanta. Right. Never did I think, well,

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Speaker 3: we're going to put him on the bench for two

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Speaker 3: or three years. Some teams have the ability to do that.

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Speaker 3: A lot of teams don't. And this is a here

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Speaker 3: and now. We talked about it, I think last year

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Speaker 3: or the year before. It is here and now in

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Speaker 3: the NFL. And if you don't jump on it, and

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Speaker 3: you don't take the chance on it, of course you're

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Speaker 3: going to be wallowing in mediocrity, which is not what

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Speaker 3: the New York Giants need and the fan base need.

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Speaker 3: I think you go in here as the Giants personally,

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Speaker 3: and I would say, you know this whole idea about

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Speaker 3: Shader Sanders and his the father and the family. That

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Speaker 3: can be a positive. I know a lot of people

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Speaker 3: are playing like it's complicated, but to have someone like

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Speaker 3: that who is not affected by the way one of

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Speaker 3: the things that Nick Saban told me about Julio Jones

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Speaker 3: completely different. When you get a player at that level

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Speaker 3: who is not affected just by random stuff, that's a

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Speaker 3: big positive. Now, he obviously has to step up and

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Speaker 3: be the player he is. He has a lot of positives.

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Speaker 3: He's not the best in the class in my mind,

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Speaker 3: but I think they really have to continue to focus

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Speaker 3: on this. I would not necessarily trade back into the

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Speaker 3: fifteens or twenty to try to get something. I think

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Speaker 3: if I was pretty darn sure about that quarterback, I

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Speaker 3: would go after the quarterback in that pick and not

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Speaker 3: pick back. Remember, by the way, and I'm talking a

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Speaker 3: lot here on this, I was known as trader Thomas, right,

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Speaker 3: but I rarely traded back, so I don't have a

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Speaker 3: lot of history of commenting on the back trade thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know how much do you sometimes have

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Speaker 2: to push a quarterback up your board a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Because you know that's how this goes, right, If you

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Speaker 2: go by straight grades, you're never gonna draft the quarterback

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Speaker 2: because quarterbacks get pushed up to such a valuable position.

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Speaker 2: So how much are you willing to do that because

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Speaker 2: it's such an important position? And how do you figure

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Speaker 2: out where you draw that line when too much is

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Speaker 2: too much and it's going to be detrimental to your team.

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Speaker 3: Now, that's a great point. We all push we all

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Speaker 3: push people up that we need. A lot of mistakes

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Speaker 3: in the in the league are made by excessive need,

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Speaker 3: whether it's pass rushers, quarterbacks, whatever it may be. When

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Speaker 3: you come to the quarterback position, there is no question

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Speaker 3: there is that proverbial quarterback tax, right John, where you

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Speaker 3: are paying for it and you have to pay for

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Speaker 3: it and you have to be aggressive, and you can't

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Speaker 3: sit back on your hands and think, oh, I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: pull this guy off at you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: forty five or fifty rarely happens. So you I personally

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Speaker 3: believe in this year's draft there are some of those

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Speaker 3: those you know, those quarterbacks like Jaylen Milroe or you know,

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Speaker 3: Jackson Dart whoever they should be Maybe they should be

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Speaker 3: second round picks and beyond Dylan Gabriel, the whole other conversation.

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Speaker 3: But you're going to have to move up into the

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Speaker 3: back into the twenties, I think, to get someone like

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Speaker 3: that or even even higher potentially. Remember though, also John,

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Speaker 3: this is one of those things with the rookie wage

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Speaker 3: scales so different than back in the back in the day, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know people talk about it, but when

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Speaker 3: you're a GM, you're thinking about that. That's a big

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Speaker 3: load off of your mind. However, I always say this,

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Speaker 3: if you're a GM, one hundred percent your legacy, how

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Speaker 3: people perceive you for posterity, is how you acquire and

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Speaker 3: how you maintain your quarterback situation. I mean, coaches, it's

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Speaker 3: all on game planning. It's this and that. If you're

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Speaker 3: a GM and you don't make the move on the

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Speaker 3: quarterback and you're not successful with the quarterback, unfortunately, that's

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Speaker 3: a albatross potentially around your neck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I think final one of the quarterbacks.

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Speaker 1: But I think is interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's a very different position to scout, right, because if

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Speaker 2: you walk away in the draft and you get the

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Speaker 2: eighteenth best wide receiver in the National Football League, that's

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Speaker 2: gonna be a pretty goodlay. Right, You're gonna feel pretty

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Speaker 2: good about that. But if you walk up with the

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Speaker 2: eighteenth best quarterback? Is that moving the dial for the organization?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: So at what point do you say, Thomas, is it

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Speaker 2: worth it even throwing a dart at the position?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: I went back and the criteria I used is getting

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Speaker 2: your team to the second round of the playoffs. And

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Speaker 2: I looked at all the quarterbacks drafted since the year

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Speaker 2: two thousand and I tried to find success rates based

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Speaker 2: on what round you picked them in, and the second

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Speaker 2: and third round was around ten to twelve percent. Ten

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Speaker 2: to twelve percent of the quarterbacks taken in those two

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Speaker 2: rounds since two thousand got their teams to the second

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Speaker 2: round of the playoffs. So, as a GM, if you're

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Speaker 2: shooting for that upside, at what point do you decide

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Speaker 2: is it worth it even trying to get a quarterback

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Speaker 2: in a round two or around three just because you

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Speaker 2: might not have a really good chance of that high

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Speaker 2: end upside?

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Speaker 1: How do you evaluate that part of it?

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Speaker 3: Look, I'm a big believer in being able to do that. However,

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Speaker 3: it is imperative that you have an incredibly smart offensive

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Speaker 3: coordinator coordinator mind at the head coach and the coordinator spot.

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Speaker 3: You do Brian Dabols very very smart that way, understanding

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Speaker 3: that you have a legitimate plan, and as a GM,

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Speaker 3: you put your head coach and your coordinators strongly on

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Speaker 3: the spot and you make sure that the game plan

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Speaker 3: is right on re how you're going to work with

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Speaker 3: this second potential second round or third round quarterback and

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Speaker 3: develop in fast, put the right people around him, get

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Speaker 3: the right scheme, the right game plan. I mean, Kyle

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Speaker 3: Shanahan we know has done that in the past, not

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Speaker 3: just with brock Party, but he's done it before, being

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Speaker 3: around quarterbacks in the past. I think that's a real

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Speaker 3: trait and I think Brian and my personal opinion, needs

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Speaker 3: to come in with a big plan that way. If

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Speaker 3: they're gonna throw a dart in the second or third round.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great point.

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Speaker 2: My final question on the quarterback evaluation part of this

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Speaker 2: how important And we saw a report late last week

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Speaker 2: the Giants were getting private workouts with a bunch of

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Speaker 2: these different quarterbacks. How much do you get out of

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Speaker 2: these private workouts the days with the quarterbacks that really

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Speaker 2: help you with that position, specifically understanding how they think,

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Speaker 2: why they do things on certain plays, whiteboard work, going

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Speaker 2: through video with them. That is even more important than

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Speaker 2: be doing with guys at other positions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. Look, we've always said the more time

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Speaker 3: you can spend with the quarterback and really dig into

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Speaker 3: his psyche because their benchmark and gauge on every element

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Speaker 3: that you're looking at, every position specific and all the

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Speaker 3: attributes are so much higher than other positions. So it

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Speaker 3: is imperative that you spend time there. I used to

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Speaker 3: use the phrase, you know you need to sniff the

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Speaker 3: pits of the players on the field. Well, you really

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Speaker 3: need to, my mind, sniff the breath of this quarterback.

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Speaker 3: You need to spend time with them. One of the

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Speaker 3: deciding factors with us with Matt Ryan back in the

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Speaker 3: day happened to be with putting him on the whiteboard

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Speaker 3: on a dinner up in Boston and Boston College and

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Speaker 3: around the area and really sitting in there and asking

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Speaker 3: him pointed questions, but watching how he interacted around the

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Speaker 3: table with you know, ten really high powered people in

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Speaker 3: the NFL, seeing how he has moved, seeing how he reacted.

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Speaker 3: All of those things really come out in those interview

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Speaker 3: times and the time on the field with him and

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Speaker 3: moving him into the into the whiteboard and having him speak,

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Speaker 3: there's nothing like that. However, we also have situations where

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Speaker 3: there might be a little bit of nervousness and there

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Speaker 3: might be a little bit of elements of the personality

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Speaker 3: that you walk away think, gosh, I don't really know

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Speaker 3: if I jive with that guy, And then the next

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Speaker 3: meeting John, it gets a lot better and you're you're relieved, right,

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Speaker 3: So there are some real aha moments in those in

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Speaker 3: those times together, both good and bad, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's imperative you have them if you were just doing

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Speaker 3: those virtual and god forbid goes in that direction. We

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Speaker 3: all understand virtual, but if it goes in that direction

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Speaker 3: where we never really meet with these guys, I think

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Speaker 3: that would be an atrocity. To be honest with you, it's

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Speaker 3: a very important time.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm with one hundred percent all right.

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Speaker 2: I want to get to a couple other positions and

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Speaker 2: just how you approach them in a second. But you're

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Speaker 2: at sumer Sports now, are you guys doing a great

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Speaker 2: job with accumulating data, helping NFL teams build and things

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Speaker 2: of that nature. As you've done more of this work, Thomas,

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Speaker 2: what have you learned maybe that you didn't even realize

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Speaker 2: as a general manager when you're running a team, and

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Speaker 2: the data that is really important and the stuff you

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Speaker 2: really look at now that you think maybe you wish

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Speaker 2: you had had access to when you were running a

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Speaker 2: team that can help predict what college players will succeed

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Speaker 2: in the NFL, which I still think is one of

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Speaker 2: the hardest things anyone has to do in any sport.

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Speaker 2: It's just because the games are so different, and predicting

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Speaker 2: what you know twenty year old players are going to

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Speaker 2: do five years from now, it's a really tough thing

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 3: That's a really tough thing. I would say this, this

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Speaker 3: is all. We could talk about this for two hours

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Speaker 3: on another show, for sure, and so let me know

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Speaker 3: about it. But the net net of it for me

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Speaker 3: right now, having been around suomer Sports for almost four

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Speaker 3: years and passing up opportunities to potentially go back into

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Speaker 3: the NFL because I believe even this, I believe in

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Speaker 3: the evolution of the league. I am one hundred percent

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Speaker 3: a football guy. It's how I was raised. However, I've

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Speaker 3: talked to you before about this. With data, it's about

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Speaker 3: augmentation and if you're an open minded enough organization to

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Speaker 3: understand how imperative it is to have augmented elements to

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Speaker 3: your building. IE, let's bring this advanced data, and let's

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Speaker 3: basically juxtapose everything subjective with everything objective. And what I

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Speaker 3: mean by that is in the past, what I had

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Speaker 3: done in those earlier years when it wasn't as prevalent.

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Speaker 3: I would take elements of data out there, some levels

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Speaker 3: they weren't anywhere near as advance as they are today,

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Speaker 3: and I would apply it to our process. I would

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Speaker 3: say now if I were ever to go back in John,

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Speaker 3: and I'd recommend this to any GM. I take anything

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Speaker 3: anything subjective and have an objective juxtaposition. Right there is

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Speaker 3: so much data out there but for character, and you

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Speaker 3: know at work ethics some of those things are complicated

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Speaker 3: to measure right now. But all the other position specifics

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Speaker 3: and all the other approaches i e. Stack busting, when

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Speaker 3: you're looking at five quarterbacks or five guards or five

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Speaker 3: pass rushers, there are elements to take some great data

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Speaker 3: and juxtapose it to all of your scouting information, all

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Speaker 3: of your scouting reports, and then it doesn't mean one

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Speaker 3: is right or wrong. I've always said that as I've

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Speaker 3: been working in this, it promotes and initiates more conversation

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Speaker 3: to really dig deep and to find out other layers

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Speaker 3: of what you might not have looked at if not

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Speaker 3: looking at the data.

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Speaker 2: The johnsont Podcast is brought to you by Citizens, the

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Speaker 2: Official Bank of the Giants. From game day celebrations to

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Speaker 2: your everyday financial needs, Big Blue fans can get the

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Speaker 2: most out of every moment with Citizens.

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Speaker 1: Learn more at citizensbank dot com slash Giants, Huddle up,

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Speaker 1: get in here. If you're lined up here, you got

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Speaker 1: to go over the middle with at the score?

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Speaker 2: Great? How do we make that happen?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but Citizen does.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense of your money with Citizens Official Bank

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Speaker 2: of Eli Manning, Yeah, I would love to do that.

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Speaker 2: We can go through the different positions on another thing.

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Speaker 2: I think that'd be awesome. We can definitely do that

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Speaker 2: down the road. I'll contact your people, they can talk

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Speaker 2: to my people, and we'll make that happen.

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Speaker 3: Perfect, perfect, all right.

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Speaker 1: I want to go through a couple positions here.

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Speaker 2: When you're building a draft board, when you're just thinking

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Speaker 2: about this in general, how much is the GM are

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Speaker 2: you thinking about building your.

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Speaker 1: Draft class overall?

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Speaker 2: In terms of leaning into the strength of a draft

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Speaker 2: rather than just going one pick in a time, all right,

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Speaker 2: this is the best player. Of picking this guy without

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Speaker 2: kind of looking ahead to see how that might impact

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Speaker 2: what you're doing later on in the draft based on

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Speaker 2: where the value in that draft might be.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question. You do step back as a

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Speaker 3: general manager and as a personnel department, and you really

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Speaker 3: look closely at the strengths of the draft, the position

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Speaker 3: strengths of the draft, and then you juxtapose that using

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Speaker 3: that word again to the free agency world, right, because

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Speaker 3: what we want to do as team builders is and

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Speaker 3: what I'm sure Joe Shane and Brian Daball want to

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Speaker 3: do is step back and say, what are we going

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Speaker 3: to do in the free agency class. Let's see if

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Speaker 3: we can knock off two or three needs where we

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Speaker 3: know we can get them. And then going into the

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Speaker 3: precariousness of the draft, and I say precariousness is you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't know if you're going to get that player.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot easier to really strike the check and

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Speaker 3: get the free agents. So in my mind, it was

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Speaker 3: always about scenario building, Right. You look at the strength

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Speaker 3: of the free agency class, strength of the draft, all

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Speaker 3: the positions where the strengths are and then you start

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Speaker 3: mapping out where you think you can go. This was

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Speaker 3: a great thing for GMS to do, not only for

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Speaker 3: their building group, but also for their owner to realize

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Speaker 3: that there is a game plan going into the draft,

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Speaker 3: and you're not to your earlier illusion. You're not just

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Speaker 3: you know, throwing darts anytime the next best player comes up. Hey,

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Speaker 3: make no mistake about it, John, Like people tell me, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's not needs based draft. It is needs based at

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Speaker 3: every level, you know, and I understand the severity is

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Speaker 3: a little different. I say that because you might need

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Speaker 3: two different positions. You might need a pass rusher and

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Speaker 3: a quarterback, and yet there's a pass rusher who is

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Speaker 3: exponentially better than the best quarterback that you can get,

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Speaker 3: and you need both of those positions. Well, even though

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Speaker 3: the quarterback is needed a little bit more, you might

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Speaker 3: take the pass rusher who is exponentially better. If you

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Speaker 3: get where I'm going. So you have to be agile

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Speaker 3: when you're building and as you're approaching the draft. But

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Speaker 3: if you have the good pro department in place and

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Speaker 3: a very sound general manager who has the thought process

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Speaker 3: and the scenario building taken care of, man, I think

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Speaker 3: you have a really good shot to be successful in

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Speaker 3: your drafts and building.

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Speaker 2: All Right, you mentioned pass rusher, and I think what

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Speaker 2: we're seeing now is two different types of edge players

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Speaker 2: come out here, Thomas, where you have the smaller upfield

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Speaker 2: guys that are you know, two forty two fifty, you know,

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Speaker 2: the donovanz Roku's, the Mike Greens, the Jalen Walkers. And

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Speaker 2: then you have the other guys. Right, you have the

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Speaker 2: two hundred sixty five pounds Mike Coe Williams. Right, you

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Speaker 2: have the big Shamar Stewart's coming out for you. Is

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Speaker 2: that a scheme thing depending on how you want to

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Speaker 2: play your defense, which guy you would favor or is

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Speaker 2: there some data out there showing that you know you

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Speaker 2: would rather have this small or explosive guy versus kind

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Speaker 2: of the big edgesetter.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you're not gonna want to hear this lead in,

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Speaker 3: but there are so many great athletes that have come

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Speaker 3: out at the pass rush position, and there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of mistakes. Yeah, yeah, just count on that. On

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Speaker 3: the quarterback side, we as football people get so caught

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Speaker 3: up in the athleticism and the burst off the line

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Speaker 3: of scrimmage. Look, I'll raise my hand. We made some

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Speaker 3: mistakes in Atlanta with our pass rushers. You know, Vic

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Speaker 3: Beasley was an unbelievable athlete. We were so excited about

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Speaker 3: building with him. Unfortunately, in the end, his sort of

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Speaker 3: drive to play football, he started to fall down in this.

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Speaker 3: We make moves because of excessive need, and then we

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Speaker 3: pair it with the athleticism that we're talking about here.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going tangentially here, but I'll come back. And

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Speaker 3: then you get a coaching staff normally who says I

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Speaker 3: will move that guy from a four maybe an average

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Speaker 3: passion for the game and work ethic because he's so athletic,

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Speaker 3: but because of their coaching prowess, they can make that

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Speaker 3: kid a seven, which rarely happens. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: imperative at this position to make sure you get the

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Speaker 3: hard working guy, the grinding type of guy. And I'm

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Speaker 3: not talking about an overachiever. I'm just talking about making

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Speaker 3: sure that that pass rusher along with what you're saying

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Speaker 3: back to whether it's scheme related. I'm a big believer

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Speaker 3: in getting that athlete coming off the edge, I mean

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Speaker 3: bursting his butt around there, closing, doing all those special

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Speaker 3: things that the Giants are used to over a guy

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Speaker 3: who is historically the best ever to have done it.

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Speaker 3: You know, way back, they've had some good ones. Don't

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Speaker 3: get me wrong, I mean for sure, but I'm talking

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Speaker 3: all the way back to LT. I'm a big believer

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Speaker 3: in the difference maker at that pillar position. That's what

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Speaker 3: I I would rather. I know there are some other

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Speaker 3: really good ones out there that are solid and sound

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Speaker 3: and come up with six to eight sacks, but there's

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Speaker 3: no doubt in the short term of this league. If

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Speaker 3: you don't get that blockbuster guy who's you know, the

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Speaker 3: mid to high double digits, man, I think you're lacking. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: we never really came away with that in Atlanta. That

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Speaker 3: was sort of the bane of my existence at times.

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Speaker 3: But it's a tough one. It's a tough one.

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Speaker 2: And Tomas, by the way, I think that Falcons are

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Speaker 2: still looking for that pass runner by the way today,

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Speaker 2: To be totally honest with you, it's a tough position

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Speaker 2: to find that.

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Speaker 1: I guess, Hey, I'll just be straight up with it.

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Speaker 2: Do you think Abdul Quarter matches those types of characteristics

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Speaker 2: you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's where I was going to go.

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Speaker 3: The guy like that, if he's sitting there and if

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Speaker 3: you ever did think you could pull back and find

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Speaker 3: someone in the second quarterback spot, this guy is that

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Speaker 3: kind of guy that's just you know, he's explosive. He

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Speaker 3: has so many traits to him, obviously coming from a program,

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Speaker 3: who knows how to work and knows how to keep

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Speaker 3: things in line, and he's not a wayward sold that way.

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Speaker 3: I think that's very positive.

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Speaker 2: All Right, defensive tackle, same type of deal right in

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Speaker 2: this class. It's a great defensive tackle class, and you

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Speaker 2: have so many guys of those two different groups. You

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Speaker 2: have the three techs that can move out to the

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Speaker 2: five that are two ninety three hundred.

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Speaker 1: They can get a field, they win with quickness.

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Speaker 2: But I think the NFL, and please correct me if

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Speaker 2: you think I'm off base on this, we've seen a

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Speaker 2: lot more power running game, a lot more gap scheme guys.

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Speaker 2: You know, look the way that Sean mcvah and the

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Speaker 2: Rams have played run a lot of power up the middle,

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Speaker 2: and I think with the way linebackers have shrunk, you

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Speaker 2: almost need those big guys in front of them to

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Speaker 2: kind of keep them free so they can run.

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Speaker 1: To the ball. Are we seeing the bigger defensive.

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Speaker 2: Tackles that can maybe two gap a little bit occupy

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Speaker 2: guys become a little bit more valuable. But then on

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Speaker 2: the other side of you, guys got like Chris Jones,

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Speaker 2: who's you know, the best pass rush on the Chiefs.

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Speaker 2: He's something to win Super Bowl. So how do you

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Speaker 2: do the defensive tackle position. Do you really need both

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Speaker 2: or do you favor one over the other.

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Speaker 3: Now, look, I'm a big I love the favoring of

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Speaker 3: them both, honestly, John, Like those are having that stout nose,

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Speaker 3: like a legit nose that's going to occupy and going

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Speaker 3: to be able to two gap. I mean back in

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Speaker 3: the day, we've seen some of those special guys that

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Speaker 3: really anchor inside and then you put that really good

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Speaker 3: quick up up, you know, up the field type of guy.

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Speaker 3: I think being able to rotate through that interior is great.

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Speaker 3: One thing I will tell you that used to drive

435
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,199
Speaker 3: me bonker is if I would ask the decordinator, Okay,

436
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 3: this dtackle that you're talking about drafting, if you're going

437
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 3: to play him thirty percent of the time, there is

438
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,919
Speaker 3: no way in our world that we're going to draft

439
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,640
Speaker 3: that guy at fifteen. So I've always been a big

440
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 3: believer speaking from a general manager perspective, making sure again

441
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 3: you're pressing appropriate and I love coaches, don't get me wrong,

442
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 3: but pressing him and saying, hey, we're not going to

443
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 3: draft the guy this high. If you're not going to

444
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 3: utilize him, he better be a guy that can you

445
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 3: can utilize in your scheme. And he's a seventy eighty percenter,

446
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 3: right John, not a thirty percent.

447
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny.

448
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: I want to go to the running back class now

449
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 2: because I think you don't have many eighty percenters at

450
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 2: running back anymore in the league.

451
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:56,199
Speaker 3: Right.

452
00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 2: All these guys are sixty percenters, forty percenters, And much

453
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 2: like this class in terms of DTS, you had a

454
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: bunch of different shapes and sizes at running back. With

455
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 2: the way the lee's going, do you like the grinder

456
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: that'll give you eighteen to twenty carries a game?

457
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 1: Or do you want to get maybe a grinder that'll

458
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: get you eight to ten carries?

459
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: But then you want to spend the capital on that

460
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: explosive guy that that's going to maybe catch the ball

461
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: a little bit better and as the chance to hit

462
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: a lot more home runs rather than the bigger guy

463
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 2: that runs hits, more singles and doubles.

464
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 3: Look, I mean I've had both in my time at

465
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 3: the Helm running, you know, as a general manager, and

466
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 3: it's exciting to have that big time guy that's just

467
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 3: going to be a game breaker, you know when I

468
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 3: look back on that way back in the day. For

469
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 3: some of your listeners who probably don't even remember Michael Turner,

470
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 3: but when we kicked off our time in Atlanta, we

471
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 3: got a guy there that could run the rock. He

472
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 3: was big, strong, he was very consistent for four plus

473
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 3: years for us, and then we had the change of

474
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 3: pace guy. You know, that is very important. So to

475
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 3: your point, it's great to pair both. You have that

476
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 3: cop change a pace guy who's a change of pace

477
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 3: guy compared to the main guy you're bringing in. If

478
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 3: you're bringing in a Saquon Barkley in a situation and

479
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: you have another change of pace guy that can rotate

480
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 3: through at the right time and bring creative elements to

481
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 3: your offense, I think that's fantastic. You could talk to

482
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 3: most coordinators out there. I believe they would say they

483
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 3: would love both. I won't even get into the conversation.

484
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 3: You guys have dealt with it all year this past

485
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 3: year on this. But that special guy can be the

486
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 3: game breaker. But where do you go for him? Right,

487
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 3: I mean, and how long does he last? Which is

488
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 3: one of the things. I think It's been great for

489
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 3: the running back group. What happened last year, right, it's

490
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 3: brought back the reality is you can't win in this

491
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 3: league without a legit run game, the pressure that you

492
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 3: put on the quarterback. And everyone's saying, oh, it should

493
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: be all we can get a fifth and sixth rounder

494
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 3: as a running back. Yes, it's happened in the past,

495
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 3: it's not that common. There are good values there. Again,

496
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: you know the Shanahan Klan group has done that in

497
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 3: the past. They know about getting I'm talking all the

498
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 3: way back to his dad. They know about bringing those backs.

499
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 3: And there are some good backs. We could go through

500
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: a litanyum names that could play for you guys, but

501
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,959
Speaker 3: are they the game breakers that you need? And I

502
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 3: do believe that in today's world you need that sound,

503
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 3: solid game breaker at that position to help your young

504
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 3: quarterback develop. By the way, along with tight ends. My

505
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 3: huge believer in a stout tight end group as well.

506
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: All right, well let's go to tight end. I think

507
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 2: that's a good next place to go. I love playing

508
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: twelve personnel if you can, Thomas, So I think you

509
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: can get both of these guys. I think you're in

510
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: great shape. But do you see more value in the

511
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 2: Y tight end where the team doesn't know if you're

512
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: running a passing you can use play action, you can

513
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: block and get off the line. Or do you like

514
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: that F tight end where he's technically a tight end,

515
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 2: but he's more of a receiver and you're gonna use

516
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: him as kind of like a movement weapon in the

517
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: past game.

518
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, ideally, when you're a team builder,

519
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 3: you're saying, I want the F slash Y. I want

520
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 3: the guy that's the dual guy. Those are the guys

521
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 3: that are going in the top fifteen. Right. We've seen

522
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 3: some even last I mean what we're seeing out there

523
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 3: with you know Bowers, like all these guys that have

524
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 3: the unbelievable talents athleticism to go along with their ability

525
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 3: to be in a Y situation. The reality is there

526
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: are very few of those that are adept at both.

527
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: I personally would sway towards having a really strong F

528
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: with A and I say slash. This is prioritizing, right

529
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: with a slash y ability, even if it's at an

530
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 3: adequate ability, but have the you know, the very good,

531
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 3: the excellent area on the F side, versus having a

532
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 3: Y with only adequate F. He's not moving well, he's

533
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: not separating, he's an underneath guy. That limits you. Coming

534
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: in with a very strong tight end group again, a

535
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 3: very good F and a very good Y like one

536
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: that's going to be a sound blocker, and then a

537
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 3: third that's got some mix. I think is a great

538
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 3: way to approach it. This is I mean, look, we

539
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 3: talk about young quarterbacks, we talk about high percentage shots.

540
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: If you have the tight end, that's going to be

541
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 3: a high percentage shot for a guy like shitter who's

542
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: going to have some growing Like we did again with

543
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: Matt Ryan. We threw them twenty two to twenty five

544
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 3: times a game, but we had a running back and

545
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: we had a legit tight end in year two when

546
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 3: we traded for Tony Gonzalez. Tony Gonzalez was a game breaker,

547
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: game changer for Matt Ryan and his development back in

548
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: the day. Of course, these are the kind of things

549
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: that I think are very important when you're acquiring a

550
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: tight end.

551
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: Why does it take you think and I think I

552
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 2: know the answer, but I'm curious as to what your

553
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: take is as a GM. Why do you think it

554
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: takes tight ends a little bit more time to develop

555
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: in the NFL than maybe guys at other positions.

556
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 3: Look, I think everyone expects the tight end, and I've

557
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 3: had these conversations numerous times with coordinators, and everyone expects

558
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: the tight end to come and be a more adept

559
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: blocker and more of a back to what I said,

560
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,239
Speaker 3: more of a well rounded individual. And I just I

561
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 3: think you cannot get a tight end by the way

562
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 3: John that comes in that is lacking in football intelligence.

563
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: I think it's must at that position. They don't have

564
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: to be outraged as wonderlick person or or sat guy.

565
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 3: I'm talking about intuitive, smart football guy that will not

566
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: slow up the production and the creativity of an offensive scheme.

567
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: All right, let's take on the offensive side of the

568
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 2: wide receiver. How much do you think that position is

569
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: becoming more specialized Thomas, in terms of where you line

570
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: the guys up, how you use them as going to

571
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 2: determine how successful they are.

572
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I'm a big believer in wide receivers. Obviously,

573
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: I moved up twenty one spots for Julio Jones was

574
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: a I was skewered for that by some and other

575
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 3: thought maybe we had something figured it out. Look, you

576
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: need a game breaker at pillar position. It's a pillar position,

577
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: whether you like it or not. You guys have one

578
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: right now in neighbors right. Love what he is. Love

579
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: being able to have that guy who's your go to guy,

580
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: but then you have you're smart personally. I like those

581
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: bigger athletic receivers that move like they're five to eleven.

582
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: I don't like the long levered not that I don't

583
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: like them, I'm saying there's a place for them potentially,

584
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: but I'm much more into having those guys that move

585
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 3: very well. Always about separation, right, It's always about separation.

586
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 3: If you can't separate. I don't care if you're a

587
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: four to three guy or four to two guy. If

588
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: you can't separate and you don't have the ability to

589
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: run routes and don't have the body control to get

590
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: into and out of your cuts, adjust for the ball

591
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: you're lacking. So I'm a big believer in getting those one,

592
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 3: two and three receivers you know, as obviously very athletic

593
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: guys who can who have versatility. Remember that is another key,

594
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 3: that's the overriding theme in the NFL. Right now, John,

595
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: So many positions give me versatility at a receiver who

596
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: can play X, who can move inside, has the ability

597
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 3: to run routes inside as well as the speed on

598
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: the outside. And I think you know again, I think

599
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 3: you have something if you pair those receivers together back

600
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: to your original question, and you're smart about how you're

601
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 3: going to utilize them in your scheme. This comes down,

602
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: by the way, last point, to make sure that you

603
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 3: are evaluating them right. You're getting your O coordinator and

604
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 3: your receiver coach communicating with your scouting department, John, to

605
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: let them know exactly what is expected out of each

606
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 3: position you are going to be acquiring. Because when you're

607
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: not doing that and scouts are just out there evaluating

608
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 3: just pure athletic ability and receiver ability, you may make

609
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 3: mistakes in putting together that stall of receivers that we

610
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 3: all know is vital, and you can get some very

611
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 3: good receivers later in the draft. We all know that

612
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 3: if you want to know how to manage two minutes

613
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 3: of crunch time football, I'm your man.

614
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: But if you're wondering about a long term financial plan,

615
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: you should talk to Citizens.

616
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: Hey, I can also talk long.

617
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: Care I'd like to learn about amliar team. Yes, I

618
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: knew I could help make sense of your money with Citizens.

619
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

620
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: And I think in this class, especially the Day two class,

621
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: I think is very strong. And when I think about

622
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: trying to compment the Giants' current group, they just resigned

623
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: Darius Lane. He's kind of your vertical threat in the outside.

624
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: And to your point, Neighbors is a guy. He can

625
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: go on the slot, he can play outside, he can

626
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: do everything. I think if Wanda ramis in the last

627
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: year of his rookie contract, if you could add another

628
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: guy that I think could interchange with Neighbors so you

629
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: can successfully move him around make it more difficult for

630
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: teams to double him. I think if you can find

631
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: that type of guy, that could almost help Neighbors, because

632
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: it's going to make teams make it a little more

633
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: difficult for teams to focus on him if you're constantly

634
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: putting him in different areas of the field.

635
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: When you have a game breaker as a receiver all

636
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: on Neighbors, it doesn't matter if he catches. It really

637
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if he catches four balls or fourteen balls,

638
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: because if he's that type of receivers that has the

639
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 3: defense on their heels and they're worried about game planning,

640
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: and then when they get on the field, they're like,

641
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: you know, neighbors, neighbors, neighbors. Julio Jones, Julio Jones. I've

642
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: seen it time and again where defensive are all defenses

643
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: are all skewered, and they're all over the place because

644
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: they're worried. It just adds an element that you know

645
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 3: in the past some of the teams and you don't

646
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: like me probably saying that some of the teams like

647
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 3: what Howie has done in Philly. They do a really

648
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: good job by creating all of these sort of questions

649
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: on that receiver line, and then all of a sudden

650
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: people don't know who to truly cover. Someone's going to

651
00:29:59,400 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: be open.

652
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: All right.

653
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: I want to go back real quick to Edges. I

654
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: forgot to ask one follow upcause I think you had

655
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: a great answer about one of the guys would burst

656
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: in athleticism. They get a field if you see one

657
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 2: of those guys, but they don't have the production in

658
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: college that you're looking for.

659
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: How do you try to.

660
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: Dig into that to figure out, all right, this has

661
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: them more to do with circumstance, how they used him

662
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: and we think we can get more out of him.

663
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: In the pros.

664
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: How much does a production or lack thereof impact How

665
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: you evaluate some of these guys in the edge class well.

666
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: As I mentioned before, I think you know, really taking

667
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: it this way, take making sure you know what that

668
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: person is about as much as possible. That's important character,

669
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: knowing that they're going to work at their craft and

670
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: continue to develop if they're not a high productive group.

671
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 3: To your point, really digging in on why that is,

672
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: digging in on the scheme, digging in on there is

673
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: so much data out there right now that you can

674
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: dig in on that can glean certain information that you

675
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: can go back and then do a lot of adjusting

676
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 3: and views on video. On the subjective side, this is

677
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: what I'm talking about with augmentation. If you just blindly

678
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: projecting like I love this guy's athleticism, excuse me, and

679
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: I love his personality. He's only got four sacks, He'll

680
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: have fourteen for us. I think that's flying by the

681
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: seat of your pants. You really need to find out

682
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 3: why you need to find out the coaching scheme. Quite honestly,

683
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: you need to find out who has been coaching him

684
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: at that position, what is he lacking and is it

685
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 3: his repertoire and moves whatever it may be, there is

686
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 3: a reason that some of these guys aren't producing. It's

687
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: imperative to look the owner in the eye, the head

688
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: coach of course as a GM, and say this is

689
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: why this guy has the upside it is. I mean

690
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: it used to drive me bonkers, by the way, when

691
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: you would get a position coach could be a pass

692
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: rush guy or a d lion guy or a linebacker

693
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: guy saying I love this guy, he's going to be

694
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: an All Pro And you know that's that's a tough

695
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 3: projection just just by watching a guy who has limited production,

696
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: they have to produce man in the end, they have

697
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 3: to go you have to go back and watch him

698
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: on VIDs and you have to figure out why or

699
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 3: why not he hasn't been producing.

700
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: We talk about the that of that upfield interior pass

701
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: rusher these days. Does that make the guard position, Thomas,

702
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: you think more important than it used to be seen

703
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: that some of the contrasts given out of guard I

704
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: think indicate teams are starting to value that position a

705
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: little bit more to protect the depth of that pocket

706
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: for a quarterback.

707
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 3: Oh, there's no question about it. I mean, all these

708
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: great quarterbacks out there, Matt Ryan, including my own experience,

709
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 3: and when there's an interior pass rush and it's valid

710
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: and vital and quick and explosive, it it throws the

711
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 3: quarterbacks world upside down. I remember some of the quar

712
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: quarterbacks I've been around with Matt Ryan, but Tom Brady,

713
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: some of those guys, they can handle some of the

714
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: outside rush in a certain way right being you know,

715
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 3: there's a way to do that, but that stuff coming

716
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: up in the interior with legitimacy, with speed, with I

717
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 3: mean some of those guys who are three hundred plus

718
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: pounds who are running you know, four to seven fives

719
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: or four sixes whatever, they are even better. Sometimes those

720
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 3: are disruptive. So back to your point, that og that

721
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: O center, I mean, those guys are vital and back

722
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: in the day, we used to say pull those guys

723
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 3: late in the draft, midted to late in the draft,

724
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 3: or we can pull them in free agency late, don't

725
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: spend money on them completely. In my mind, one of

726
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: our best free agents was a center we took from

727
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: the Browns, and I think about that, and I think

728
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: about what he did for us, for Matt Ryan over

729
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 3: the years, and what I was for many many years

730
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: I was vehemently opposed to. I realized that interior is

731
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 3: so vital. There are some really good guards out in

732
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: this draft. I think there aren't a ton of them,

733
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: but there are projected tackles that could move into guard.

734
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: Remember that guard spot. There has to be an element

735
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: of nasty, tough, reactionary elements there that aren't just kind

736
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: of like, you know, hey, he can put his hand

737
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: down and I remember this is a funny story. Very quickly.

738
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: We drafted on offensive center guard one time, and I'm

739
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: for not to mention his name. People can figure it

740
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: out and deduce it. But loved the guy. And you

741
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 3: remember him telling me in the lunch room one time.

742
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: He said, Thomas, sometimes I just put my hand down

743
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking about greener pastures. And I'm like, oh

744
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: my gosh, I love you, man, but don't think green

745
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: pastures on Sunday. That's a whole You do it the

746
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: rest of the week. I need your ass fired up,

747
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 3: ready to take someone's head off and So the point

748
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: is making sure that that's a well rounded position that

749
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: you're acquiring. And I think that's important moving forward.

750
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: Alex Mac that pro bowler that you're brought in, really

751
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: really good player. How much has and this is this

752
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: final question on the data and scouting real quick, how

753
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: much has the on field tracking data that I'm sure

754
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 2: you guys have access to helped you in terms of

755
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: evaluation where we use that to depend on you know,

756
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: running the forty at the combine. But now we have

757
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: all this on field data of how fast guys run,

758
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: how fast guys come in out of their breaks. How

759
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: much does that data for you guys help augment the

760
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 2: way you see some of these players.

761
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's an important thing. Right, we're projecting.

762
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: There are a lot of players that you don't really

763
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: have a legit forty four we're projecting, you know, as

764
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: we continue to grow, we're projecting other drills.

765
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: Right.

766
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: I'm a big believer in the three cone. How we're projecting.

767
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: I mean these the way that the data is going

768
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: and being able to project and have numbers, legitimate numbers

769
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: through frame by frame analysis, I think to me is fascinating.

770
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 3: It is next waves we know that, we realize where

771
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: it is. My biggest point on all of this is

772
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: you have to have an open minded organization who is

773
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 3: willing to take that data and implement it. That's I

774
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 3: tell people all the time, three and a half plus

775
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 3: years in this business. I'm not claiming that I have

776
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: a PhD in it. What I do have a PhD

777
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: I think, or a growing understanding of, is the proper

778
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: implementation of the data that we have and not just

779
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 3: being afraid of that data and tucking it away and

780
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: you you know in your portfolio, utilizing it properly is

781
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: very important and that's where the league is going to

782
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 3: go over the next few years for sure, being comfortable

783
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 3: with how they are diagnosing and implementing the data.

784
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: Finally, final question, how do you tell teams to put

785
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: that data in proper context? Because that's the key to

786
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: all this, right, figuring out what the data means and

787
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: how you use it and how you should let it

788
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: influence the way you think about these players. Obviously, I'm

789
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: sure it's different for different data points, but how important

790
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: is understanding the proper context to use this data so

791
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 2: you are applying it properly. It could be perfect data

792
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: and great datam but if you're not applying it properly,

793
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: it can hurt you as much as it helps you.

794
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And I think that just

795
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: takes time, and that takes confidence that what you're utilizing

796
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 3: is not overriding all of your football expertise. Right. It's again,

797
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 3: it's about it's about perfectly that side by side, you know,

798
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: subjective and objective. And I will say one of the

799
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: things that I've realized with myself included when you're in

800
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: the football world and you're taking on data and you're

801
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: making decisions on this, you know, game time decision making

802
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: or roster management, roster optimization, and you see this is

803
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 3: the difference by using this will be a you know,

804
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 3: between eight percent and twelve percent difference. The football people

805
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 3: are like twelve percent, are you kidding me? I want

806
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: eighty nine or ninety two percent. It's not happening. And gentlemen,

807
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: if you if you can't die, differentiate between those smaller

808
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: percentages marginal gains, which we know are important and I

809
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 3: keep drilling that into my contemporaries heads. Marginal gains are vital.

810
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: Don't expect these massive increases, understand that there is proper

811
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: utilization and effectiveness and efficacy to the utilization of data

812
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 3: in those smaller percentage differences. And that's what I try

813
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: to continue to stress to people.

814
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think I'll put it in a

815
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: layman terms, Right, you get an eighty on a test.

816
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: If you do ten percent better, you turn a B

817
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: minus into a B plus. Right, And in the long term,

818
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: that's that. It means something, It changes something. All right, Tom,

819
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: Before we say goodbye, tell the folks about what you're

820
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: doing at tchumor all the cool stuff. You guys put

821
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: out your Draft Guy for the first time this year,

822
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: which has been awesome. People should go check that out.

823
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: Tell about everything you guys are doing over there.

824
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 3: Yeap Summer Sports dot com and we have so many

825
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 3: things going on. We have we have all kinds of

826
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 3: offerings we continue to offer on the B to B side,

827
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: So NFL NNC we're doing a lot of work in

828
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 3: the NC double A space, which ultimately helps the NFL

829
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 3: space and vice versa. That's great. We are also offering

830
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: at a number of different levels, you know, platforms to

831
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 3: manage both NFL and NC DOUBLEA and more appropriately, probably

832
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: and applicable to your your your listeners. We're working on

833
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 3: that consumer side diligently to continue to provide great information,

834
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: both appropriately subjective and objective information that tie into people.

835
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 3: And you know, we have people on our staff are

836
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 3: who are fantasy efficionados. Right, that's not my world, but

837
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: there's a lot of that going on. We love what

838
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: we did with our draft guide, so we're hoping everyone

839
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 3: checks it out and keep keep watching smer. There's a

840
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 3: lot to come.

841
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, just go to suomer sports dot com guys, and

842
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: you can just go through it, look at the data.

843
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of links on top and you can

844
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: scroll find that draft guide again. It's really easy to navigate,

845
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: they guys. You guys did a great job. Put it

846
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: again the toimecause it really is easy. A lot of graphics.

847
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: They just very easy to navigate. And appreciate all the

848
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: hard work you guys are doing. Thanks so much of

849
00:38:59,200 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 2: the time.

850
00:38:59,400 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: Man.

851
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: We appreciate get it.

852
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: Always appreciate it.

853
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 2: Thanks man, And I can't wait to hook up to

854
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: kind of dig in more into the data analysis and

855
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: things like that. That's the Johns Total Podcast, brought to

856
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: you by citizens Official Bank of the Giants from the

857
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: Hackensack Mariney Health podcast studio, keep getting better, We'll see

858
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: you next time.

859
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: Everybody