WEBVTT - Ep. 344: Water Witching 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:05.280 This is what these people. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.479 Everybody want to well, they don't get either. Just Quinton 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:13.319 or set Timmins or somebody, Yeah, to go wit you well. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.760 And now the well drillers, now them drillers, of them 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:19.480 witches don't know nothing about it. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.160 But I wouldn't. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.640 I would if I drilled well, I would want to 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:25.000 witch you. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.159 Have you ever heard of witching for water? It's an 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.800 ancient folk method for finding underground water, but people today 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.360 believe that you can also use it to find underground 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.479 utilities and a bunch of other stuff. It's long been 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.200 chalked off by science as hocus pocus, but it's still 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.599 widely used in rural America, and I'm interested in how 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:55.160 people view this. On this episode, we'll interview seven people. 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.320 A legit water witcher, a casual water witcher, a guy 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.920 who knew a legendary waterwitcher, a guy who's a huge skeptic, 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.360 a lady who paid for the services of a waterwitcher, 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.120 a guy in commercial construction, and a physicist from a 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:16.160 major university. But I'm only looking for one answer, and 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.480 it's not if water witchers can find underground water, but 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.280 I want to know what makes the sticks move because 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.480 that's the one thing that is not up for debate. 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.280 They do move, But I'll let you make the decision 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.800 if this is crazy folklore and unsolved physics mystery, or 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.280 perhaps we just haven't asked the right questions. But honestly, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.919 you won't be able to make an intelligent decision until 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.479 you've tried it for yourself. I really doubt that you're 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.880 gonna want to miss this one. And hey, we've got 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:54.400 some sweet new massyoak yep, that's right, Massy Oak Bear 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.800 Grease and this country life hats coming out. Check it 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.680 out on the meat eater dot com. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.480 Something's going on in the rides, I just don't know 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:02.960 what it is. 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.120 My name is Klay Knukem, and this is the Bear 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:20.120 Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.880 for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:28.040 story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:34.400 Presented by FHF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.240 fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the place. 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:39.160 As we explore. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.360 He kind of had a kit. I mean he had 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.760 an old tin about like what you'd say a fruitcaken. Nowadays, 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.800 and in that kit he had pill bottles, just normal 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:02.160 little pill bottles. He would have sulfur water and in 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.000 one and he'd have salt water in another one. He 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:09.560 would have good what we call good water, and he'd 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.520 put it in these bottles. But he didn't have him 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.800 marked he had them. He'd just had black electrical tape 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.800 around him. And whenever he'd get out and do some 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.640 water witching, he would have all these things in his pocket. 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.200 But then whenever he got round to witching, he would 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:26.040 have him in his hand. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.080 This is the voice of my neighbor Mark Findall. Mark 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.040 once told me that he was the biggest farmer in 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.760 hall Guy, Arkansas, pausing for a minute before he said, 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.160 I'm about two inches taller than my brother. Mark is 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.920 telling me a story about a water witcher named Seth 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.480 Timmins that he knew very well. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.040 Well. He would he'd get wherever he was going, and 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.800 of course he'd had he had a big long elbow 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.080 shaped probably big around as your thumb, probably a six 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.520 inches handle, and then it ran out about eighteen inches, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.120 just an hell complete a nighty l and he'd get 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.480 out and he would hold that up above his head 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.320 and it would point the direction he wanted to go 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.920 to look for water. So he'd hold that up and 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:22.000 then he had a long piece of I think it 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.279 was a brass that he would hold in his hand 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.560 and he'd start walking. Then he'd stop and you would 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.400 see this thing start bouncing up and down, and he'd 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.960 and you'd see him count and then then he'd stop. Well, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.360 then he'd set that down and then he'd get his 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.279 He had a it was like an old big carpenter's 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.440 plumb bob on a piece of leather, and he would 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.120 hold that in his hand, out away from his body, 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.840 and he'd have some of that. He'd have whatever it 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.280 was he was in one of those pill bottles, and 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.360 he'd look at it and if it didn't react, and he'd 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.480 put a different pill bottle in his hand and he'd 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.040 watch it. Well, then you'd see that things start going 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:10.440 around in a circle, see, and and you'd see him counting, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.440 and he'd put a rock right there where he was 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.040 standing and he'd say, well, right here at a one 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.920 hundred and sixty feet is good water and it'll make 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:25.760 about five six eight ten gallons a minute. I mean 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:27.120 that's he had that. 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.240 He had that level of confidence in the specificity of 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:31.359 what he was going to find. 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.839 Yeah, of course you'd you'd be sitting there, and of 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.240 course there'd be the landowner and maybe two or three 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.320 neighbors and a bunch of kids bouncing around, and they'd 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.039 all have that look on their face, you know, like 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.800 you know, that look of what just happened. I don't 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:46.320 think I'm going to say anything, because I don't want 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.159 to make him mad or or embarrass him or you know. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.640 But Seth, he never never bothered him, you know. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.520 Out of the gate. I'll tell you that Seth's method 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:00.320 of witch and water was quite unconventional. But it's hard 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.200 to say because the origin of water witching is lost 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:07.120 to antiquity. But as to what it actually is, it's 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.320 an ancient trade where you use some type of rod 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:15.520 or forked stick to find underground water. Cave paintings in Africa, 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.880 believed to be eight thousand years old, depicted water witchers. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.960 Some believe Moses in the Bible smiting the rock with 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.320 the staff in the desert and water coming out of 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.440 the rock was a form of water witching. The Greeks 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:32.120 wrote about waterwitching in the fifth century. The term waterwitching 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.520 is primarily a Scottish and American term, but some call 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.200 it dousing and some call it divining for water. Will 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:44.080 use all these words interchangeably. The actual name waterwitching hasn't 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.960 done it any favors in modern times, proven to be 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:51.160 a real marketing blunder. People used to believe the mysterious 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:55.000 movement of the witching sticks was supernatural. Some say the 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:59.880 name though, came from them using witch hazel wood. Regardless, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.880 in the Middle Ages, it probably did give a witchcraft vibe, 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.159 which I'm not a fan of nor want to play 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.679 around with at all. But to add to it all, today, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.239 waterwitching is considered a pseudoscience, and for over one hundred years, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.840 the US Geological Survey has denied any credible evidence that 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.440 it works. In a nineteen seventeen paper, they called it 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.520 a favorite trick for appealing to uneducated persons, and that 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.440 quote further tests by the United States Geological Survey of 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.280 this so called witching for water, oil, and other minerals 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.720 would be a misuse of public funds. They were done 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.040 with it a long time ago, and since then many 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:48.760 controlled academic tests supposedly with expert water witchers, have proven 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:55.200 water witchers can't find underground stuff any better than random chance. 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.800 But I'm just not sure that these academics and these 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:05.280 studies got it right. I just think there's something more 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.520 I want to hear more about Seth Timmins. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.520 He was born in February of nineteen twelve in a snowstorm. 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.680 He lived between hog Guy and West Fork. He was 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.880 an only child, and back then that was a rarity. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.320 Seth was thirty six before when he first got married, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:30.640 and he said that was just a little bit young. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.839 I mean that's he had a great sentient, great laugh, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.319 you know, outgoing, loved the coffee shop, liked to hear 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.400 what was going on in the neighborhood. They were like 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.600 super diversified. You know. They had of course, they had 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.000 the milk cow, They had their chicken, had a huge garden, 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.599 had an o'sal, always had a litter pigs, butchered his 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:55.240 own hogs, you know, working horses, working mules. They raised mules. 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.280 That was their big cash crop back in the day, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:03.040 was raising and selling mules down to the delta. Very 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.400 you know what you would think of a typical Arkansas 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.920 farmer of the of the era, of that era. But 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:10.839 yet he had season tickets to the race of back 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.240 football games. Every Saturday morning that there was a football game, 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.199 we'd see he and his wife going, probably three or 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.880 four hours before the football game, they'd go up there. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.800 I mean, you know, it wasn't like they were hermits, 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.840 lived up on the hill, so and just sitting and 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.400 just listening to the stories that he would tell about 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.199 growing up, you know, before electricity. That I can always 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.760 remember him, you know, as a water witch. Some of 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.760 them call it doodlebugging. A lot of time people would 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:42.920 come he they'd want him to come witcha well, and 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.800 he never charged, but it was kind of a customary 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.440 thing that people would come and pick him up and 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.040 take him. They'd come get him and take him because 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.040 that way he wouldn't get lost. And he always got 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.559 a got a kick out of seeing. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.559 Just leaving this area and going somewhere which today wouldn't 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.160 be a very far trip at. 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.880 All, no, you know, considering he grew up riding in 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:06.400 a wagon. 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.080 Seth had an old school methodology on water witching that 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:15.040 he undoubtedly learned from people straight out of the eighteen hundreds. 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.040 He believed that if he held in his hand what 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.520 he was looking for, the witching sticks would find that 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.520 specific thing. He even believed that he could find natural gas. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:31.000 Though the specific tactics and even theatrics vary, they all 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.080 hinge on a single principle that spurred my curiosity since 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.880 I was a child. Many, if not most people, when 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.760 holding these rods or a four could stick. When you 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.280 walk over water or a buried water line, or even 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.560 an underground electric line, the sticks will move like they're 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.080 being pulled by a magnet. And the way I've seen 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:57.120 it done, the witching sticks are primarily straightened out clothes 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.720 hangers or just common thin metal wire in the shape 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.880 of an elm. Despite the criticism science saying that it 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:09.880 isn't real, I'm telling you from personal experience, something moves 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.840 the rods. I'm trying to understand what that something is. 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.800 Yeah, you know, it's just you know, people were just 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.440 just you know, what do they say, especially if it 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:25.960 was new to them. They had never seen anything like that, 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.080 and a lot of old timers they'd seen water, which 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:29.959 is before and I think it was a lot more 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.680 common in the older days because whenever you dug a well, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.959 you dug you physically dug a water well, and you 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:41.000 looked for a spot that wasn't fifty feet deep. You 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:42.920 know you found it. 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:44.760 There was a little more consequence to it when you're 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.400 hand big and a well versus drilling with a big 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.480 piece of machinery. They were looking for any edge. Yeah, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.720 I guess when you think about somebody that was want 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.880 and water, they're definitely on the landscape. We know that 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.680 there's some places are good, some places all right, someplaces 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.520 that have water, someplaces don't. There were people that thought 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:04.560 they could help you find it. 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:05.079 Right. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.200 Waterwitching and its psychology begins to be understood when you 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:15.880 establish a fundamental fact good water isn't everywhere. This is 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.760 the voice of another family friend of ours, Ozark cattle 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.320 farmer Roger Quinton. 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.400 Like we were talking about the upper place. When I 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.600 was a kid, we didn't have no water. Still ain't 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.600 got no water on that farm. But right across fence 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.920 and they were drilled well behind his house and they 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:34.760 hit good water. 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.280 They had good, sweet water. 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:39.679 They went right up on the hill about one hundred 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.440 foot they drilled another well, fell into a cavern and 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:47.080 had good water. Two hundred foot west of there they 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.480 drilled a well and it's the nastiest sulfur in the world, 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.560 and they ain't very much of it. We had a 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.240 well two hundred and fifty foot south of that Goodwill, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.520 and it had so much natural gas in she couldn't 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.600 use it. And there's places that they're in anywhere you 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:03.240 get across the. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:03.959 Road over yonder. 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.680 I think you can drill a thousand foot deep not 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.280 getting no water, you know, they just it won't turn 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:11.120 stick at all. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:13.400 And variability. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.080 Yeah, so that's how spotty good water and bad water 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.559 is anywhere in the Ozarks. 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.240 Good water isn't everywhere, and the success of your well 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.600 can come down to a matter of feet. Some regions 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.360 of the country sit above giant underground aquifers, and water 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.360 is always at a known distance. But places like the 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:39.480 Ozarks are kars underlain with limestone, producing unseen fissures, sinkholes 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.520 and caverns. So why wouldn't you look for help beyond 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.440 what your eyes can see? Water witchers believe they could 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:52.240 help answer a question of great consequence, But how accurate 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:57.599 are they? Here's mark on seth. How how accurate was 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.760 he in helping people to your knowledge? You know what? 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:02.360 You would know? 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.080 He was pretty good, I would say the guys that 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.240 were drilling the well. The well drillers, they love to 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.040 be able to pull out on am you know, pull 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.200 up somebody's house or future house and see a stake 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.920 driven out there in the pasture. They were thrilled because hey, 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.080 the pressure was off of them. Yeah. It wasn't like 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:23.560 the guy says, well, I've hired you to come out 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.000 and drill the water well and I want you to 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.520 hit water. You're fixing, fixing to spend you know, thousands 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:29.440 of dollars. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.480 All the liabilities on the water witcher who said drill here. 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.280 Yeah, because hey, the the you know, the pressure was 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:36.760 off of them. 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.680 Well, and if you hired a well driller today, he 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.360 essentially is doing the same job as a water witcher. 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.360 I mean he's not using any you know, tech techniques, but. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.840 He's maybe maybe he's using intuition. Maybe he is, uh, 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.280 you know, he's drilled thousands of well so no doubt. 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.120 In a specific area, so he would know waters usually 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:58.640 in the valleys or on the hills. 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.240 Actually, and actually Seth would say I could find better 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:05.560 water away from a river or a creek or a 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.920 lower heats you off on the hillside. 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.000 Roger Quinton lives about five miles over the mountain from Mark, 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.760 and he's what I would call a casual water which 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.680 he grew up around it. He understands its limitations, but 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.360 which are well for family when needed. I want us 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.360 to see how commonness. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:29.800 Is my great grandfather which the lot. If the water 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:36.320 witcher say he would settle well, and my granddad lived 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.240 to be ninety seven years old, and they they would 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.560 come get him. He never And if you you kept 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:47.040 telling me about those people that are professionals, there is 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.280 no professional. If they charge you money to which you're well, 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.280 go get you somebody else, because he don't know any 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.520 more than no boy that does it for a hobby. 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.720 But you know, I've known of it all my life. 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.320 My dad could do it. I can do it. 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.440 Take a peach tree and put it between hands, you 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.960 walk across the stream of water. If it's good enough, 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.680 it'll it'll twist the hands. And you know you wouldn't 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:17.760 think they do it, but the end of that stick 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.840 will go straight down. Now, mister Timmins over there that 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.720 you talk to, Mark find all about he's I've seen 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.920 him work lot. He had a little different technique. He 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.280 could tell you how many feet it was deep and 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.880 all that, but it's all say principle. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:36.480 It's just what it is. 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:41.680 And sometimes you know, I waged one here two years ago. 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.560 It twists the water out on my hand. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.400 At ninety foot we hit thirty forty fifty gall in 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.040 a minute. We had to case it off and we 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.160 had to drive a thousand foot before we got any 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:54.640 more water. 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.680 But you found that water that was close? 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.120 Oh yeah, it was, it was, and I know what 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:01.720 it was there. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.879 There are many techniques for witching water. Roger has a 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.800 traditional and simple method using a forked peach limb, which 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.520 is a favorite type of wood. Many believe different woods 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.600 react differently, and I'll try to describe it. You cut 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.040 a green limb about as big around as your pinky. 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.919 That's the shape of the letter why. The bicycle handlebar 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.439 part should be about twelve to fourteen inches on each fork, 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.320 and the single rods sticking out about eight to ten inches. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.480 You hold the stick like you're riding a bicycle, and 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.879 the single rod sticks out straight, and when it feels 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.280 like the stick is being pulled downward like by a magnet, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:46.000 it's believed to indicate water. However, many people use too 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.280 thin metal rods bit in the shape of an al, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.359 held parallel to each other, and as you walk, the 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.480 rod's cross indicating water beneath. But I'd like to ask 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.800 a more fundamental question, what is the mechanism behind what 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:06.840 makes them move? Here's Mark. So, with your knowledge of Seth, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.280 did what did he feel like he was tapping into? 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.560 Do you think he felt like it was just physics. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.879 There's just some unexplainable physics. Did he think it was supernatural? 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:17.040 Like? 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:18.120 What did he think it was? 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.159 It was just it was a gift. I think he 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:21.960 looked at it as a. 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:23.440 Gift, as like a human gift. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.600 Yeah, and it's one of those things that it makes 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:33.359 absolutely no common sense, but yet you know you do it, 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.520 you know it's it's done. And Seth was not one 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.199 of these bragful, boastful tell a tall tale, you know. 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.720 He was. He was very factual. He rarely what you 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.160 would say, embellish on a story or anything like that. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.840 He was. It's just it was just common to him. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.560 He was. Was Seth a religious person at all? 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.960 He was, Yeah, he was a church going you know, 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:57.160 but he wasn't preachy. 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.800 I asked that because I wondered, Uh, how he equated 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.080 like having this because if it was a if he 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.000 felt like and I think a lot of people did 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.960 feel like it was like a personal gift that they 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.119 could do this. How do they equate that into like 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.320 their their faith and stuff? You know that wasn't even connected. 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.960 I don't he never really talked about it. Yeah, you know, 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:21.960 people woul ask him for Seth, why can't I do 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.640 this right? Well, he said, I guess you just don't 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:25.040 have it? 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.639 What do you what do you make of the whole 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.040 water witching scene? So you knew a guy like Seth, 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.960 but you also carry copper witch and sticks in your 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.440 truck sometimes? What do you what do you make of it? 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:45.040 Well, you know, most anybody, I've never seen really anybody 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:47.480 that it didn't work with. And it would be curious 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.720 to be around somebody that it did not work with. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.160 What you know, right, what's their problem? 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.560 Do you think it's physics? Do you think it's it's 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.159 a gift that a human has? What do you think? 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:05.359 Well, I don't think it's a gimmick. You know, there's 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:12.760 definitely something that he's tuned to. And but Seth was 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.560 I don't know a lot more sensitive to it, in 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.879 tune to it, you know, whatever you want to say. Uh, 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.400 but oh yeah, if I was going to go out 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.879 here and drill a water well, I would definitely have 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.040 somebody come out with it, you know, kind of make 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:29.639 the odds a little bit better in your favor. 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.200 I like that answer. It makes the odds a little 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:39.320 bit more in your favor. The psychology of water witching 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.960 is interesting. In many handle it like a superstition, like 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.520 let's do it just in case it can't hurt. Some 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.240 say witching sticks operate on the same principle as a 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.920 Oiji board, okay, which I don't like. I don't see 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.000 the connection. No, when I've ever known tries to summon 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.840 spirits while they're looking for water, and like I said, 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.000 into witchcraft and I just don't think that the devil 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.600 cares where my water line is buried. But this is 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:11.000 more interesting. Some experts believe the movement of the sticks 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:16.120 is fueled by the psychological phenomenon called the ideal motor effect, 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.720 where your thoughts can trigger physical movements without conscious intent, 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:27.480 where suggestions and expectations can trigger muscle movements which bypass 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.919 our will so the water which are subconsciously beyond his knowledge, 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.600 is moving the sticks, tricking his mind into thinking it's 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:41.600 happening on its own. If this is the case, I'd 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:44.200 say it's worth its own study, its own bear grease, 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:48.760 because I'm telling you the sticks move and your hands don't. 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.800 So is this human psychology that we're dealing with or physics? 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:58.560 Maybe it's both. I've got a question for Roger. What 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:02.360 would it like if you are just let's say, the 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:06.320 ozarks fifty years ago? Would a water witcher just have 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.399 been like a common or just somebody that could do it? 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:09.840 Yeah? 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:11.840 Just I mean it would have just been like it 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.920 wasn't even funny. It wasn't even a question of whether 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:16.760 it works. It's just like, that's just what these people do. 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.879 Everybody want to well, they don't get either just Clinton 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:24.680 or Seth Timmins or somebody, Yeah, to go go with you. Well, 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.200 and now the well drillers now them drillers, So them 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:30.920 witches don't know nothing about it. 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:33.520 But I wouldn't. 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.080 I would if I drilled well, I would want to 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:36.399 witch you. 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:41.320 Uh what do you what do you make of it? 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:41.479 Like? 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:43.520 What do you think? Do you think it's do you 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:44.240 think it's real? 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.800 I have no idea what the physics is it of it, 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.920 or what the scientific part of it is, but I 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:53.200