1
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:05,280
Speaker 1: This is what these people.

2
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,479
Speaker 2: Everybody want to well, they don't get either. Just Quinton

3
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,319
Speaker 2: or set Timmins or somebody, Yeah, to go wit you well.

4
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,760
Speaker 2: And now the well drillers, now them drillers, of them

5
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,480
Speaker 2: witches don't know nothing about it.

6
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 3: But I wouldn't.

7
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,640
Speaker 2: I would if I drilled well, I would want to

8
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:25,000
Speaker 2: witch you.

9
00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of witching for water? It's an

10
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: ancient folk method for finding underground water, but people today

11
00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,360
Speaker 1: believe that you can also use it to find underground

12
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,479
Speaker 1: utilities and a bunch of other stuff. It's long been

13
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 1: chalked off by science as hocus pocus, but it's still

14
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,599
Speaker 1: widely used in rural America, and I'm interested in how

15
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,160
Speaker 1: people view this. On this episode, we'll interview seven people.

16
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,320
Speaker 1: A legit water witcher, a casual water witcher, a guy

17
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,920
Speaker 1: who knew a legendary waterwitcher, a guy who's a huge skeptic,

18
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 1: a lady who paid for the services of a waterwitcher,

19
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,120
Speaker 1: a guy in commercial construction, and a physicist from a

20
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 1: major university. But I'm only looking for one answer, and

21
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,480
Speaker 1: it's not if water witchers can find underground water, but

22
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 1: I want to know what makes the sticks move because

23
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,480
Speaker 1: that's the one thing that is not up for debate.

24
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 1: They do move, But I'll let you make the decision

25
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,800
Speaker 1: if this is crazy folklore and unsolved physics mystery, or

26
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: perhaps we just haven't asked the right questions. But honestly,

27
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,919
Speaker 1: you won't be able to make an intelligent decision until

28
00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,479
Speaker 1: you've tried it for yourself. I really doubt that you're

29
00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,880
Speaker 1: gonna want to miss this one. And hey, we've got

30
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 1: some sweet new massyoak yep, that's right, Massy Oak Bear

31
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,800
Speaker 1: Grease and this country life hats coming out. Check it

32
00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,680
Speaker 1: out on the meat eater dot com.

33
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,480
Speaker 4: Something's going on in the rides, I just don't know

34
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 4: what it is.

35
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,120
Speaker 1: My name is Klay Knukem, and this is the Bear

36
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search

37
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the

38
00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 1: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land.

39
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:34,400
Speaker 1: Presented by FHF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and

40
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 1: fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the place.

41
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 1: As we explore.

42
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,360
Speaker 3: He kind of had a kit. I mean he had

43
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 3: an old tin about like what you'd say a fruitcaken. Nowadays,

44
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,800
Speaker 3: and in that kit he had pill bottles, just normal

45
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 3: little pill bottles. He would have sulfur water and in

46
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,000
Speaker 3: one and he'd have salt water in another one. He

47
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 3: would have good what we call good water, and he'd

48
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,520
Speaker 3: put it in these bottles. But he didn't have him

49
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,800
Speaker 3: marked he had them. He'd just had black electrical tape

50
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,800
Speaker 3: around him. And whenever he'd get out and do some

51
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 3: water witching, he would have all these things in his pocket.

52
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 3: But then whenever he got round to witching, he would

53
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 3: have him in his hand.

54
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,080
Speaker 1: This is the voice of my neighbor Mark Findall. Mark

55
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: once told me that he was the biggest farmer in

56
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 1: hall Guy, Arkansas, pausing for a minute before he said,

57
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm about two inches taller than my brother. Mark is

58
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 1: telling me a story about a water witcher named Seth

59
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 1: Timmins that he knew very well.

60
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 3: Well. He would he'd get wherever he was going, and

61
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 3: of course he'd had he had a big long elbow

62
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,080
Speaker 3: shaped probably big around as your thumb, probably a six

63
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 3: inches handle, and then it ran out about eighteen inches,

64
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 3: just an hell complete a nighty l and he'd get

65
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 3: out and he would hold that up above his head

66
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 3: and it would point the direction he wanted to go

67
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 3: to look for water. So he'd hold that up and

68
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 3: then he had a long piece of I think it

69
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,279
Speaker 3: was a brass that he would hold in his hand

70
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 3: and he'd start walking. Then he'd stop and you would

71
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,400
Speaker 3: see this thing start bouncing up and down, and he'd

72
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,960
Speaker 3: and you'd see him count and then then he'd stop. Well,

73
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,360
Speaker 3: then he'd set that down and then he'd get his

74
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,279
Speaker 3: He had a it was like an old big carpenter's

75
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,440
Speaker 3: plumb bob on a piece of leather, and he would

76
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,120
Speaker 3: hold that in his hand, out away from his body,

77
00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,840
Speaker 3: and he'd have some of that. He'd have whatever it

78
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,280
Speaker 3: was he was in one of those pill bottles, and

79
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,360
Speaker 3: he'd look at it and if it didn't react, and he'd

80
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,480
Speaker 3: put a different pill bottle in his hand and he'd

81
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,040
Speaker 3: watch it. Well, then you'd see that things start going

82
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 3: around in a circle, see, and and you'd see him counting,

83
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 3: and he'd put a rock right there where he was

84
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 3: standing and he'd say, well, right here at a one

85
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,920
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty feet is good water and it'll make

86
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 3: about five six eight ten gallons a minute. I mean

87
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 3: that's he had that.

88
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 1: He had that level of confidence in the specificity of

89
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:31,359
Speaker 1: what he was going to find.

90
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course you'd you'd be sitting there, and of

91
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 3: course there'd be the landowner and maybe two or three

92
00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 3: neighbors and a bunch of kids bouncing around, and they'd

93
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,039
Speaker 3: all have that look on their face, you know, like

94
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 3: you know, that look of what just happened. I don't

95
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 3: think I'm going to say anything, because I don't want

96
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,159
Speaker 3: to make him mad or or embarrass him or you know.

97
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 3: But Seth, he never never bothered him, you know.

98
00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 1: Out of the gate. I'll tell you that Seth's method

99
00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,320
Speaker 1: of witch and water was quite unconventional. But it's hard

100
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 1: to say because the origin of water witching is lost

101
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,120
Speaker 1: to antiquity. But as to what it actually is, it's

102
00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,320
Speaker 1: an ancient trade where you use some type of rod

103
00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 1: or forked stick to find underground water. Cave paintings in Africa,

104
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,880
Speaker 1: believed to be eight thousand years old, depicted water witchers.

105
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 1: Some believe Moses in the Bible smiting the rock with

106
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 1: the staff in the desert and water coming out of

107
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,440
Speaker 1: the rock was a form of water witching. The Greeks

108
00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: wrote about waterwitching in the fifth century. The term waterwitching

109
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,520
Speaker 1: is primarily a Scottish and American term, but some call

110
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: it dousing and some call it divining for water. Will

111
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,080
Speaker 1: use all these words interchangeably. The actual name waterwitching hasn't

112
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 1: done it any favors in modern times, proven to be

113
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,160
Speaker 1: a real marketing blunder. People used to believe the mysterious

114
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 1: movement of the witching sticks was supernatural. Some say the

115
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 1: name though, came from them using witch hazel wood. Regardless,

116
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, it probably did give a witchcraft vibe,

117
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,159
Speaker 1: which I'm not a fan of nor want to play

118
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,679
Speaker 1: around with at all. But to add to it all, today,

119
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,239
Speaker 1: waterwitching is considered a pseudoscience, and for over one hundred years,

120
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 1: the US Geological Survey has denied any credible evidence that

121
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,440
Speaker 1: it works. In a nineteen seventeen paper, they called it

122
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,520
Speaker 1: a favorite trick for appealing to uneducated persons, and that

123
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: quote further tests by the United States Geological Survey of

124
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,280
Speaker 1: this so called witching for water, oil, and other minerals

125
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,720
Speaker 1: would be a misuse of public funds. They were done

126
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,040
Speaker 1: with it a long time ago, and since then many

127
00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:48,760
Speaker 1: controlled academic tests supposedly with expert water witchers, have proven

128
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 1: water witchers can't find underground stuff any better than random chance.

129
00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,800
Speaker 1: But I'm just not sure that these academics and these

130
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,280
Speaker 1: studies got it right. I just think there's something more

131
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,520
Speaker 1: I want to hear more about Seth Timmins.

132
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 3: He was born in February of nineteen twelve in a snowstorm.

133
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 3: He lived between hog Guy and West Fork. He was

134
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,880
Speaker 3: an only child, and back then that was a rarity.

135
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 3: Seth was thirty six before when he first got married,

136
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 3: and he said that was just a little bit young.

137
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,839
Speaker 3: I mean that's he had a great sentient, great laugh,

138
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:38,319
Speaker 3: you know, outgoing, loved the coffee shop, liked to hear

139
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 3: what was going on in the neighborhood. They were like

140
00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,600
Speaker 3: super diversified. You know. They had of course, they had

141
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 3: the milk cow, They had their chicken, had a huge garden,

142
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,599
Speaker 3: had an o'sal, always had a litter pigs, butchered his

143
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 3: own hogs, you know, working horses, working mules. They raised mules.

144
00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 3: That was their big cash crop back in the day,

145
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,040
Speaker 3: was raising and selling mules down to the delta. Very

146
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,400
Speaker 3: you know what you would think of a typical Arkansas

147
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 3: farmer of the of the era, of that era. But

148
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,839
Speaker 3: yet he had season tickets to the race of back

149
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,240
Speaker 3: football games. Every Saturday morning that there was a football game,

150
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,199
Speaker 3: we'd see he and his wife going, probably three or

151
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 3: four hours before the football game, they'd go up there.

152
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,800
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it wasn't like they were hermits,

153
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,840
Speaker 3: lived up on the hill, so and just sitting and

154
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 3: just listening to the stories that he would tell about

155
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,199
Speaker 3: growing up, you know, before electricity. That I can always

156
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 3: remember him, you know, as a water witch. Some of

157
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 3: them call it doodlebugging. A lot of time people would

158
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 3: come he they'd want him to come witcha well, and

159
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 3: he never charged, but it was kind of a customary

160
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,440
Speaker 3: thing that people would come and pick him up and

161
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,040
Speaker 3: take him. They'd come get him and take him because

162
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 3: that way he wouldn't get lost. And he always got

163
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,559
Speaker 3: a got a kick out of seeing.

164
00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,559
Speaker 1: Just leaving this area and going somewhere which today wouldn't

165
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 1: be a very far trip at.

166
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,880
Speaker 3: All, no, you know, considering he grew up riding in

167
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 3: a wagon.

168
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 1: Seth had an old school methodology on water witching that

169
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,040
Speaker 1: he undoubtedly learned from people straight out of the eighteen hundreds.

170
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 1: He believed that if he held in his hand what

171
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 1: he was looking for, the witching sticks would find that

172
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 1: specific thing. He even believed that he could find natural gas.

173
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,000
Speaker 1: Though the specific tactics and even theatrics vary, they all

174
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,080
Speaker 1: hinge on a single principle that spurred my curiosity since

175
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 1: I was a child. Many, if not most people, when

176
00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,760
Speaker 1: holding these rods or a four could stick. When you

177
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 1: walk over water or a buried water line, or even

178
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,560
Speaker 1: an underground electric line, the sticks will move like they're

179
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,080
Speaker 1: being pulled by a magnet. And the way I've seen

180
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,120
Speaker 1: it done, the witching sticks are primarily straightened out clothes

181
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 1: hangers or just common thin metal wire in the shape

182
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,880
Speaker 1: of an elm. Despite the criticism science saying that it

183
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 1: isn't real, I'm telling you from personal experience, something moves

184
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,840
Speaker 1: the rods. I'm trying to understand what that something is.

185
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's just you know, people were just

186
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,440
Speaker 3: just you know, what do they say, especially if it

187
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,960
Speaker 3: was new to them. They had never seen anything like that,

188
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,080
Speaker 3: and a lot of old timers they'd seen water, which

189
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:29,959
Speaker 3: is before and I think it was a lot more

190
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,680
Speaker 3: common in the older days because whenever you dug a well,

191
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,959
Speaker 3: you dug you physically dug a water well, and you

192
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 3: looked for a spot that wasn't fifty feet deep. You

193
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 3: know you found it.

194
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: There was a little more consequence to it when you're

195
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: hand big and a well versus drilling with a big

196
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 1: piece of machinery. They were looking for any edge. Yeah,

197
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 1: I guess when you think about somebody that was want

198
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 1: and water, they're definitely on the landscape. We know that

199
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 1: there's some places are good, some places all right, someplaces

200
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 1: that have water, someplaces don't. There were people that thought

201
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:04,560
Speaker 1: they could help you find it.

202
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:05,079
Speaker 3: Right.

203
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 1: Waterwitching and its psychology begins to be understood when you

204
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,880
Speaker 1: establish a fundamental fact good water isn't everywhere. This is

205
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,760
Speaker 1: the voice of another family friend of ours, Ozark cattle

206
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 1: farmer Roger Quinton.

207
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,400
Speaker 2: Like we were talking about the upper place. When I

208
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,600
Speaker 2: was a kid, we didn't have no water. Still ain't

209
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,600
Speaker 2: got no water on that farm. But right across fence

210
00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,920
Speaker 2: and they were drilled well behind his house and they

211
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 2: hit good water.

212
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 3: They had good, sweet water.

213
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,679
Speaker 2: They went right up on the hill about one hundred

214
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 2: foot they drilled another well, fell into a cavern and

215
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,080
Speaker 2: had good water. Two hundred foot west of there they

216
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 2: drilled a well and it's the nastiest sulfur in the world,

217
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,560
Speaker 2: and they ain't very much of it. We had a

218
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 2: well two hundred and fifty foot south of that Goodwill,

219
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 2: and it had so much natural gas in she couldn't

220
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 2: use it. And there's places that they're in anywhere you

221
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 2: get across the.

222
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:03,959
Speaker 3: Road over yonder.

223
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,680
Speaker 2: I think you can drill a thousand foot deep not

224
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 2: getting no water, you know, they just it won't turn

225
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 2: stick at all.

226
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 1: And variability.

227
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's how spotty good water and bad water

228
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,559
Speaker 2: is anywhere in the Ozarks.

229
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 1: Good water isn't everywhere, and the success of your well

230
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 1: can come down to a matter of feet. Some regions

231
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 1: of the country sit above giant underground aquifers, and water

232
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 1: is always at a known distance. But places like the

233
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 1: Ozarks are kars underlain with limestone, producing unseen fissures, sinkholes

234
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: and caverns. So why wouldn't you look for help beyond

235
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,440
Speaker 1: what your eyes can see? Water witchers believe they could

236
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: help answer a question of great consequence, But how accurate

237
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,599
Speaker 1: are they? Here's mark on seth. How how accurate was

238
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,760
Speaker 1: he in helping people to your knowledge? You know what?

239
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 1: You would know?

240
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,080
Speaker 3: He was pretty good, I would say the guys that

241
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,240
Speaker 3: were drilling the well. The well drillers, they love to

242
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 3: be able to pull out on am you know, pull

243
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 3: up somebody's house or future house and see a stake

244
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 3: driven out there in the pasture. They were thrilled because hey,

245
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,080
Speaker 3: the pressure was off of them. Yeah. It wasn't like

246
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,560
Speaker 3: the guy says, well, I've hired you to come out

247
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 3: and drill the water well and I want you to

248
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,520
Speaker 3: hit water. You're fixing, fixing to spend you know, thousands

249
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:29,440
Speaker 3: of dollars.

250
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 1: All the liabilities on the water witcher who said drill here.

251
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, because hey, the the you know, the pressure was

252
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 3: off of them.

253
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 1: Well, and if you hired a well driller today, he

254
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: essentially is doing the same job as a water witcher.

255
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,360
Speaker 1: I mean he's not using any you know, tech techniques, but.

256
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 3: He's maybe maybe he's using intuition. Maybe he is, uh,

257
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 3: you know, he's drilled thousands of well so no doubt.

258
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,120
Speaker 1: In a specific area, so he would know waters usually

259
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 1: in the valleys or on the hills.

260
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 3: Actually, and actually Seth would say I could find better

261
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 3: water away from a river or a creek or a

262
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,920
Speaker 3: lower heats you off on the hillside.

263
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: Roger Quinton lives about five miles over the mountain from Mark,

264
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 1: and he's what I would call a casual water which

265
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 1: he grew up around it. He understands its limitations, but

266
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,360
Speaker 1: which are well for family when needed. I want us

267
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,360
Speaker 1: to see how commonness.

268
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 2: Is my great grandfather which the lot. If the water

269
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 2: witcher say he would settle well, and my granddad lived

270
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 2: to be ninety seven years old, and they they would

271
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 2: come get him. He never And if you you kept

272
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 2: telling me about those people that are professionals, there is

273
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 2: no professional. If they charge you money to which you're well,

274
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 2: go get you somebody else, because he don't know any

275
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 2: more than no boy that does it for a hobby.

276
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 2: But you know, I've known of it all my life.

277
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 3: My dad could do it. I can do it.

278
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 2: Take a peach tree and put it between hands, you

279
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 2: walk across the stream of water. If it's good enough,

280
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,680
Speaker 2: it'll it'll twist the hands. And you know you wouldn't

281
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 2: think they do it, but the end of that stick

282
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 2: will go straight down. Now, mister Timmins over there that

283
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 2: you talk to, Mark find all about he's I've seen

284
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 2: him work lot. He had a little different technique. He

285
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 2: could tell you how many feet it was deep and

286
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 2: all that, but it's all say principle.

287
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 3: It's just what it is.

288
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 2: And sometimes you know, I waged one here two years ago.

289
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 3: It twists the water out on my hand.

290
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,400
Speaker 2: At ninety foot we hit thirty forty fifty gall in

291
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 2: a minute. We had to case it off and we

292
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 2: had to drive a thousand foot before we got any

293
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:54,640
Speaker 2: more water.

294
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: But you found that water that was close?

295
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was, it was, and I know what

296
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 2: it was there.

297
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,879
Speaker 1: There are many techniques for witching water. Roger has a

298
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: traditional and simple method using a forked peach limb, which

299
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 1: is a favorite type of wood. Many believe different woods

300
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: react differently, and I'll try to describe it. You cut

301
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: a green limb about as big around as your pinky.

302
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 1: That's the shape of the letter why. The bicycle handlebar

303
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,439
Speaker 1: part should be about twelve to fourteen inches on each fork,

304
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 1: and the single rods sticking out about eight to ten inches.

305
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 1: You hold the stick like you're riding a bicycle, and

306
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 1: the single rod sticks out straight, and when it feels

307
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: like the stick is being pulled downward like by a magnet,

308
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,000
Speaker 1: it's believed to indicate water. However, many people use too

309
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: thin metal rods bit in the shape of an al,

310
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,359
Speaker 1: held parallel to each other, and as you walk, the

311
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 1: rod's cross indicating water beneath. But I'd like to ask

312
00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 1: a more fundamental question, what is the mechanism behind what

313
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,840
Speaker 1: makes them move? Here's Mark. So, with your knowledge of Seth,

314
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 1: did what did he feel like he was tapping into?

315
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 1: Do you think he felt like it was just physics.

316
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,879
Speaker 1: There's just some unexplainable physics. Did he think it was supernatural?

317
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 5: Like?

318
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,120
Speaker 1: What did he think it was?

319
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,159
Speaker 3: It was just it was a gift. I think he

320
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 3: looked at it as a.

321
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 1: Gift, as like a human gift.

322
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's one of those things that it makes

323
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:33,359
Speaker 3: absolutely no common sense, but yet you know you do it,

324
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 3: you know it's it's done. And Seth was not one

325
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,199
Speaker 3: of these bragful, boastful tell a tall tale, you know.

326
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 3: He was. He was very factual. He rarely what you

327
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,160
Speaker 3: would say, embellish on a story or anything like that.

328
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 3: He was. It's just it was just common to him.

329
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: He was. Was Seth a religious person at all?

330
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,960
Speaker 3: He was, Yeah, he was a church going you know,

331
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 3: but he wasn't preachy.

332
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 1: I asked that because I wondered, Uh, how he equated

333
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 1: like having this because if it was a if he

334
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 1: felt like and I think a lot of people did

335
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 1: feel like it was like a personal gift that they

336
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 1: could do this. How do they equate that into like

337
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 1: their their faith and stuff? You know that wasn't even connected.

338
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 3: I don't he never really talked about it. Yeah, you know,

339
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 3: people woul ask him for Seth, why can't I do

340
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 3: this right? Well, he said, I guess you just don't

341
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 3: have it?

342
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 1: What do you what do you make of the whole

343
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: water witching scene? So you knew a guy like Seth,

344
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 1: but you also carry copper witch and sticks in your

345
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,440
Speaker 1: truck sometimes? What do you what do you make of it?

346
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 3: Well, you know, most anybody, I've never seen really anybody

347
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 3: that it didn't work with. And it would be curious

348
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 3: to be around somebody that it did not work with.

349
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,160
Speaker 3: What you know, right, what's their problem?

350
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 1: Do you think it's physics? Do you think it's it's

351
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,159
Speaker 1: a gift that a human has? What do you think?

352
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think it's a gimmick. You know, there's

353
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 3: definitely something that he's tuned to. And but Seth was

354
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 3: I don't know a lot more sensitive to it, in

355
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 3: tune to it, you know, whatever you want to say. Uh,

356
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,400
Speaker 3: but oh yeah, if I was going to go out

357
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,879
Speaker 3: here and drill a water well, I would definitely have

358
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 3: somebody come out with it, you know, kind of make

359
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 3: the odds a little bit better in your favor.

360
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 1: I like that answer. It makes the odds a little

361
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: bit more in your favor. The psychology of water witching

362
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 1: is interesting. In many handle it like a superstition, like

363
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 1: let's do it just in case it can't hurt. Some

364
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: say witching sticks operate on the same principle as a

365
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: Oiji board, okay, which I don't like. I don't see

366
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: the connection. No, when I've ever known tries to summon

367
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: spirits while they're looking for water, and like I said,

368
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: into witchcraft and I just don't think that the devil

369
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: cares where my water line is buried. But this is

370
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: more interesting. Some experts believe the movement of the sticks

371
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,120
Speaker 1: is fueled by the psychological phenomenon called the ideal motor effect,

372
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: where your thoughts can trigger physical movements without conscious intent,

373
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: where suggestions and expectations can trigger muscle movements which bypass

374
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,919
Speaker 1: our will so the water which are subconsciously beyond his knowledge,

375
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: is moving the sticks, tricking his mind into thinking it's

376
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 1: happening on its own. If this is the case, I'd

377
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: say it's worth its own study, its own bear grease,

378
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: because I'm telling you the sticks move and your hands don't.

379
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: So is this human psychology that we're dealing with or physics?

380
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: Maybe it's both. I've got a question for Roger. What

381
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 1: would it like if you are just let's say, the

382
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: ozarks fifty years ago? Would a water witcher just have

383
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: been like a common or just somebody that could do it?

384
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: Yeah?

385
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: Just I mean it would have just been like it

386
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: wasn't even funny. It wasn't even a question of whether

387
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: it works. It's just like, that's just what these people do.

388
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 2: Everybody want to well, they don't get either just Clinton

389
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 2: or Seth Timmins or somebody, Yeah, to go go with you. Well,

390
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: and now the well drillers now them drillers, So them

391
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 2: witches don't know nothing about it.

392
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 3: But I wouldn't.

393
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 2: I would if I drilled well, I would want to

394
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 2: witch you.

395
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: Uh what do you what do you make of it?

396
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:41,479
Speaker 3: Like?

397
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: What do you think? Do you think it's do you

398
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: think it's real?

399
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: I have no idea what the physics is it of it,

400
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 2: or what the scientific part of it is, but I

401
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: just know it works.

402
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: So you you think it's it is physics, though it's

403
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: not like some supernatural thing.

404
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: No, it's just like finding a water line with two

405
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: close agents.

406
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: Roger just mentioned finding a water line with two clothes hangars,

407
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: as if that were common knowledge in America for everybody.

408
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: But that's exactly what I grew up doing. We called

409
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: it witching for a water line, and it works on

410
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: electric lines too. I've known how to do this since

411
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 1: I was a teenager. Am I really this deceived and

412
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: this gullible? If it is this ideometer effect, I'm just

413
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: telling you that it's wild. This is absolutely getting out

414
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: of control. I've been searching for the answer far too

415
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: long on Google. I am headed out of the country,

416
00:23:41,800 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: headed into the big city to find the answer. I'm

417
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: walking towards the University of Arkansas campus. It's been twenty

418
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: years since I've been in the physics building. I am

419
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: potentially illegally parked, and I'm going to see one of

420
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: my old professors, doctor Daniel Kineffect. He was my physics

421
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: teacher and some pretty interesting things have come up in

422
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: my life as an adult that now I've got to

423
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: go back and see him, and I've got some serious

424
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: questions for him that have come up in my life

425
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: that have been challenged. Waterwitching, dowsing, using divining rods. These

426
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: are things that I grew up around. Wasn't an expert,

427
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: but they were common and we're just accepted as something

428
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: that was real. And I've used them, used them much

429
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: of my life, even used them when I was a

430
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: landscaper to locate water lines and electric lines underground. And

431
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: the older I get, the more it feels like I'm

432
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: kind of crazy. But I want to go see doctor

433
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: Kennefec and ask him if there's any physics behind this

434
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: that could validate that it works, because the science I've

435
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: seen says it is not real. I've got a pair

436
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: of witch and sticks in my hand. Walking down the

437
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: sidewalking and I'm going to the physics building. Walking onto

438
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: the University of Arkansas campus is a trip down memory

439
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: lane as I ponder if I am one of the

440
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: uneducated people that the trickery and lies of water witching

441
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: have deceived and prayed upond, I guess it's possible but

442
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: only science can answer this question. And as we know,

443
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: physics seeks to understand the nature and properties of matter,

444
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: energy and their interactions like stuff bumping together. What makes

445
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: stuff move? It tells us how the physical universe works.

446
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: It will tell us why the witch and sticks move.

447
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: This should be simple. Here's doctor kinnefect, So what do

448
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: you know about dowsing, divining rods and water witch? What's

449
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: your knowledge of that?

450
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 3: Well?

451
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 6: I always heard the word dowsing. That was what I

452
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 6: would have heard growing up in Ireland. Divining sometimes so,

453
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 6: and it is true that from a physics point of view,

454
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 6: it's difficult to see what it is that you'd be

455
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 6: detecting with the rod in the water, for instance. You've

456
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 6: almost certainly heard the phrase that is so commonly used

457
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 6: about gravity and physics. We started with that as being

458
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 6: as it were, the first force in the sense that

459
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 6: it's what Newton had it. And now, as you may know,

460
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 6: we claim there are four fundamental forces in nature that

461
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 6: we know, and it's commonly said by physicists that gravity.

462
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: Is the weakest of them. What are the four forces?

463
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 6: So we have gravity, we have electromagnetism, and then we

464
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 6: have the strong nuclear force, and the weakly clear force.

465
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 6: So those forces are both sort of hidden down in

466
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 6: the nucleus. We never encounter them in our kay live.

467
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 6: The thing is that gravity is really weak. I can't

468
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 6: see how it could be anything gravitation because we do

469
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 6: know that. Actually, while I think everybody hopefully knows that

470
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 6: gravity is caused by massive objects, right, mass is what

471
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 6: produces the gravitation. But now an interesting question becomes, Okay,

472
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 6: but what if the mass is in motion? Does that

473
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 6: change things? And the answer is actually, in principle it does.

474
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: So potentially moving water could do something too.

475
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah.

476
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 6: The trouble is that the amount of water that we

477
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 6: have here in the Earth, it's just far too weak.

478
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: Gravity as a weak force is kind of confusing. But

479
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: the four fundamental forces in the universe are gravity, electromagnetism,

480
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: and the strong and weak nuclear force. These forces govern

481
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: all interactions of matter in the universe period. Doctor kin

482
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: Effect says gravity would be the most likely candidate, but

483
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: he thinks it's highly unlikely. When you hear stuff like

484
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: this like dowsing, as a physicist, do you automatically think

485
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 1: this is hopeless focus?

486
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm thinking that it would be difficult for

487
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 6: me to see how to prove that it was true.

488
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 6: That would be really think Now, of course, the physicists

489
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 6: are all different, and yeah, you would certainly get physicists

490
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 6: who would be pretty dismissive to yeh, don't talk to

491
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 6: me about that, right, I mean, I am more open

492
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 6: minded in my view. I don't know because I haven't

493
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 6: studied it, right, what I know? And then an answer

494
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 6: to the question will why not study it? And the

495
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 6: answer comes back to that question. There's so much stuff

496
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 6: out there to study, you can't do everything.

497
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's part of my deal. There's been a

498
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: lot of research on specifically dowsing for underground water, and

499
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: basically all the research that we've found has shown that

500
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: these dowsers for water had no more chance of finding

501
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: water than someone of the random chance. So, I mean,

502
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: that's what the academic research points to that we've found.

503
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: And I'm not really that sold on. I don't know

504
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: how to find underground natural water using dowsing rods. I

505
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: do believe that I could go out in your yard

506
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: right now and locate your electric lines. And there are thousands,

507
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: if not hundreds of thousands of people in the country

508
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: today plumbers and electricians that carry divining rods in their

509
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: trucks and man, the way that it was presented to

510
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: me was completely functional. I've yet to find any science

511
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: that validates it, but it would.

512
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 6: It's tricky because, and here's where the skepticism comes in.

513
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 6: It so often happens that when you take something like

514
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 6: that and you bring it into the lab to study it,

515
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 6: it kind of evaporates. Yeah, now, why does that happen?

516
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 6: Is that because the person involved is essentially a fraud?

517
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 6: Maybe I don't know. Maybe it's not mystical, but it's

518
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 6: just subtle, right, And the particular thing that makes it

519
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 6: work somehow is gone when you're in the lab and

520
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 6: you don't know what it is. And that happens even

521
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 6: in the lab, right, I could give you examples.

522
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: So that's not like laughable to you.

523
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 6: You know that happens?

524
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, does it really? Like you go to the lab

525
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: and it literally doesn't work in the lab, but it works,

526
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: or you go.

527
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 6: To a different lab but it worked in the first

528
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 6: lab but not in the second lab.

529
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: Say, I would think you would say, Clay, that is

530
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: human bias and just crazy people.

531
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: It can be.

532
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 6: It can be, but there are situations where you find it. Oh,

533
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 6: that's because we didn't really know what was making this work.

534
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 6: We hadn't identified the cause of it. I mean, let

535
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 6: me give you a quick example. So in my field,

536
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 6: gravitation ways, there was a claim, this is decades ago

537
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 6: now in the Soviet Union then still the Soviet Union,

538
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 6: that they were getting a very good Q factor quality factor,

539
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 6: resonant factor with a certain crystal. And there was a

540
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 6: lot of skepticism from people in the West, and they

541
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 6: couldn't replicate it, you know, they set it up the

542
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 6: way that people told them they had done it, but

543
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 6: it wasn't work, and so people were thinking, God, these

544
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 6: guys are maybe fraudulent, right, And so then one of

545
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 6: the non Soviet groups sent a guy over there and

546
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 6: he was tasked to figure out what was going on.

547
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 6: And apparently he did actually figure it out, because it

548
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 6: turned out that to make it work, when you suspended

549
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 6: the crystal from a special wire, very expensive, carefully constructed wire,

550
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 6: but you also needed to grease the wire. And the

551
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 6: way that the Russians did this was pretty casual. In

552
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 6: the lab, they'd just gotten used to it. They took

553
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 6: the wire and they typically just rubbed it behind the

554
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 6: rear to get a little bit of grease on it.

555
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 6: And the trouble is you don't put that in the

556
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 6: scientific pick you know, said hey, be sure you rubbed

557
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 6: the wire behind the gear grease right, So nobody did

558
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 6: that anywhere else, but he discovered that he saw them

559
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 6: do it right, so he said, oh, should I do

560
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 6: that too? And I said, oh, you got to do

561
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 6: that right.

562
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: And so this very like fundamental thing threw the whole

563
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: thing off.

564
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 7: That's right.

565
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 6: So if you didn't have the ear grease, it didn't work.

566
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 6: And so when he went back home, the group in

567
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 6: Scotland that's where he was from, uh, succeeded. Where the

568
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 6: other group's trying to replicate this approach.

569
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: Film, it just it just shows the challenges that there

570
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: are in measuring some of these things, and even motivation too.

571
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: It's like you've got bigger fish the fry in this

572
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: and so it's plausible that it's just not really been

573
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: researched enough.

574
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and especially because of course there's a moving target, right,

575
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 6: am I really studying whether you can find water with

576
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 6: a wooden rod or an electric cable with a metal rod?

577
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 6: Those are two from a physicist point of view, boy,

578
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 6: those are two big, very different things.

579
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

580
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 6: I would be looking for different explanations in both of

581
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 6: those cases.

582
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: So it is possible that science just hasn't uncovered the

583
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: full story. It is possible that water witch in just

584
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: won't fit into the scientific method box because there are

585
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: too many variables for it to work in a controlled environment.

586
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: This could be the classic excuse for pseudoscience. Or maybe

587
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: it's true. Look back at all the things that science

588
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: has got wrong in the past, but also look back

589
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: at all the pseudo scientists that got a bunch of

590
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: stuff wrong. But you are not going to believe this.

591
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: Right in the middle of my interview with doctor Kenefect,

592
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: there is a knock on the door and in walks

593
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: his niece Sarah. He tells her what we're talking about,

594
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: and she says, I had a guy witch you well

595
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: for us just last year. Within five minutes, I'm interrogating

596
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: her about her story. Meet Sarah. You can't make this

597
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: stuff up. So I'm doing an interview with doctor Kinneffect,

598
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: my foreign physics teacher, and in walks some of his

599
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: family and they just so happened to have fairly recently.

600
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: Oh yes, in the last six months six months.

601
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 5: So his father whiched my parents well, and we reached

602
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 5: out to his family when I needed a well and

603
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 5: his father has since passed. I actually talked to his brother,

604
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 5: and his brother was like, I don't have the skill,

605
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 5: but my brother does, so you need to go talk

606
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 5: to my brother. So we gave him a call. He

607
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 5: came on out for one hundred and fifty dollars, he

608
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 5: will witch you're well. He had truly like a stick,

609
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 5: the why stick off of a tree. Yeah, and then

610
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 5: he had his dowsing rods, which were some sort of

611
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 5: gold medal.

612
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: I didn't okay, said two different things.

613
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 5: So he started with the stick this why stick holding

614
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 5: the two ends and walked the property. He said, actually

615
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 5: he asked us where's the house going to be? So

616
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 5: we kind of told him where, and he's like, where

617
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 5: would you like it? And so we kind of pointed

618
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 5: in a direction and he started sort of triangulating, walking

619
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 5: across and across and across. He said he was looking

620
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 5: for faults. So he found what he says is a fault,

621
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 5: and then he got out his two dowsing rods and

622
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 5: walked like a smaller area and then he was like Okay,

623
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 5: right here, he says, of course he can't guarantee it,

624
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 5: but we had the well dug and they went down

625
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 5: about two hundred feet and we have about four gallons

626
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 5: per minute?

627
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: So is that good for your area? It's not great

628
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: for my area. So it didn't work that well.

629
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 5: No, my parents well is actually more like ten gallons

630
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 5: a minute. And so if you look online, like there's

631
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 5: some role places that won't certify the will if it's

632
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 5: less than six gallons a minute. What I was telling

633
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 5: some of my friends was actually like it's a good

634
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 5: bit of what I felt was performance art.

635
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 7: Really yeah.

636
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 5: He was like, well, where do you want it? And

637
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 5: so like he sort of walked back and forth. There's

638
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 5: a very very distinct ravine on one side, big mountain

639
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 5: on the other, and it's like, okay, like to find

640
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 5: a fault in that. It's like, well, there's there's a

641
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 5: pond on one side and then there's you know, a

642
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 5: ravine on the other. So like where with the where

643
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 5: with the water table be?

644
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: So why did you why did you hire him? He

645
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: was the one I knew, I mean, but why did

646
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: you think that you needed a water witcher to find

647
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: your water? Would that just be like just something that

648
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: everybody down there does.

649
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 8: Yeah.

650
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, so it's just common just like, hey, if

651
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: you're gonna drill, well might as well. Is it kind

652
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: of like it's probably not really gonna work, but it might,

653
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: so it's worth taking a chance.

654
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, why not?

655
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: Is that the way you felt?

656
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 7: Sure?

657
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 5: I mean, for one hundred and fifty bucks, It's like,

658
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 5: let's let's give it a shot. Let's say if it works,

659
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 5: we were going to dig a well around that area anywot.

660
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 5: So for him to come out and go, yeah, you

661
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 5: probably find water here, you kind of go, okay, like

662
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 5: is it worth like, you know, fifteen hundred dollars? Probably

663
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 5: not about one hundred and fifty one hundred fifty bucks.

664
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 5: It's like, let's figure out. Let's see what he does.

665
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: Roger Quinton told us that you shouldn't have to pay

666
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: for a water witcher. But let's not forget that this

667
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: guy which Sarah's mother's ten gallon a minute well too,

668
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: So technically he was one hundred percent on finding water.

669
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: Some say that you can find water anywhere if you're

670
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: willing to dig deep enough, But I like Sarah's attitude

671
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: about the whole deal. It's worth a shot. You might

672
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: be under the impression that water witchers are these mystical

673
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 1: hippie bearded guys wearing poenty hats. But all the water

674
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: witchers that I've ever known have been practical, down to

675
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: earth people. I'd like you to meet a water witcher,

676
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: a legit water witcher from Madison County, Arkansas, who was

677
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: a logger and a carpenter his whole life. I think

678
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: you'll appreciate his simple, no fluff attitude about it. I

679
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: wanted to see how he got started.

680
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 9: My name Carl Holt, and the way I got starready

681
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 9: just being around them old guys, don't it. And that's

682
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 9: been forty something years ago or fifty.

683
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 7: Oh.

684
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 9: I watched them and they let me sometimes use their

685
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 9: stuff and do with the heck call of elves wooden stick.

686
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 9: A way back there there was an old man named

687
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 9: last name of Tuddle lived over where my drive for

688
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 9: and he's probably the first one I ever seen which

689
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 9: well figured out I could do it. I've done a

690
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 9: bunch of them up around Kingston and up on the mountain,

691
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 9: and I ate one to Yellville and doesn't.

692
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: When you go out to a piece of property, what

693
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: would you do would you ask the landowners any questions?

694
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: Would you just start walking? Would you use some clues

695
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: that maybe you know about where water would be and

696
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: go there first? Ay?

697
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 9: Usually just figured out how far they wanted it from

698
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 9: the house and made a circle round, and that didn't work.

699
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 7: You wanted a little lighter.

700
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: You've had quite a bit of success finding water with

701
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: the wells that have been drilled where you said there

702
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: was water.

703
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 9: Yeah, they've always hit water and sometimes it's pretty deep.

704
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. How does it work in a community? How would

705
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: people know that you would witch a well for them?

706
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: Just word of mouth?

707
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, just word of mouth.

708
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: Do you expect anything from people when you witch well

709
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 1: for them?

710
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 7: Nope?

711
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 9: I just tell them the ain't no guarantee. Yeah, so far,

712
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:35,439
Speaker 9: so good.

713
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: What do you think the mechanics of water witching working

714
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: to find underground water is?

715
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 9: I'm not really sure. I figure a person's got something

716
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 9: in their body that does it. I don't know, because

717
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 9: really there's no signs on it, and physically it shouldn't

718
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 9: be possible, but it isn't.

719
00:39:59,280 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 7: It works.

720
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: Do you think about that? What you just said that

721
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 1: there's no science behind it, it shouldn't work. I mean, well,

722
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: are you just okay with that? Yeah, you just that

723
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: doesn't even bother you at all.

724
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 9: Nah, because most people that want me to witch, well

725
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 9: they've talked to somebody else I've wished one for. Yeah,

726
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 9: they just have to trust me.

727
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 1: The old man that I heard about over in hog

728
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: Guy that was a big water witcher, he believed that

729
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: it was a personal gift. So he really believed that

730
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 1: it was like supernatural essentially.

731
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 7: Huh.

732
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 9: I don't really, I don't really agree with that. I

733
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 9: mean because like me and people that are a lot

734
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 9: different people and still witch water.

735
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: Talking with Carl, you quickly see that he doesn't have

736
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: anything to prove or an ego to stroke. Waterwitching is

737
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: just a tool that he can use to help the

738
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: people in his community. You don't get a Charlattan vibe

739
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: from him at all, or any sense that this eye

740
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: doesn't one hundred percent believe everything that he says. I

741
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: want to hear his process. He uses a y shaped

742
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: green limb, but it's got to be alive.

743
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,479
Speaker 9: That's hard to explain. You can how you to hold

744
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 9: a stick like that pointing out right and you can

745
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 9: hold as tight as you want to, and whenever you

746
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 9: go over that water it's going down. If it has twists,

747
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 9: the bark off and the deeper it is less, it's

748
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 9: not as bad. But you can get one. It's pretty

749
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 9: close and it'll burn your hands trying to hold it.

750
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard people say that.

751
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 7: What causes it? I having a clue.

752
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: What would you say to skeptics that would say that

753
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,720
Speaker 1: you're subconsciously moving the stick with your hands.

754
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 9: Ain't happening. You can hold it like get and it'll

755
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 9: still pull. Yeah, some people probably think it.

756
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: I think people that say that a human is unconsciously

757
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: moving it with their hands they've never done it before.

758
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 7: Huh.

759
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 1: I mean, because it's hard to deny that that thing's

760
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: moving on its own. If you've done it right, you

761
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: will you show me how you make a stick, and

762
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: I want you to show me how you do it.

763
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 7: I'll get the perners and you go down there and

764
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 7: find one. Yeah, that's a hard.

765
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: Well, let's let's do that. Let's do that now. After

766
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: cutting a live y shaped maple limb, we walk up

767
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: to his known well where he knows there's water about

768
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: one hundred yards uphill from his house.

769
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 7: Okay, all right.

770
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 3: Go ahead.

771
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: So he's holding that tight like he's squeezing that would

772
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: and it is pulling down, like it's actually twisting in

773
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: his hand. So I mean, it's actually you're like trying

774
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: to hold it tight and I won't do it. You

775
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: can't show me again back up. So it's not he's

776
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: not tricking himself. He's holding it as tight as he can.

777
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: And as he walks over this well, we know there's

778
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: water here. It's pulling out. He's he's not twisting that.

779
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: It's going down on its own, like something's pulling on it.

780
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,720
Speaker 7: That's worked for you for forty years longer.

781
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: I filmed Carl Death gripping his y shaped maple limb

782
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: and saw the sticks with my own eyes twist in

783
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 1: his hands like a fishing pole bending under the tension

784
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: of a big catfish. It went down at least eight inches.

785
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to post this video on my Instagram, and

786
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm certain people will say that me and Carl are delusional,

787
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 1: and maybe we are. But if it's the ideo motor effect,

788
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: I want to know the physics of how micro movements

789
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: and the palms of his stationary death gripped hands can

790
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: twist the wood. A human doesn't have snake scales or

791
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: centipede legs on the palms of their hands that can

792
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: move wood. I just cannot fathom the physics of that,

793
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: and I saw it with my own eyes. You just

794
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: got to see it and feel it to believe it.

795
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: But please hear the nuance in what I'm saying. I

796
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: don't know if it really helps you find water, but

797
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: with all the intellect and skepticism and intelligence that I

798
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: can muster, I'm telling you I believe those sticks are

799
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: moving on their own. And I think that this is

800
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 1: a good time to hear from America's greatest skeptic and

801
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 1: my friend meat Eater's own Stephen Ranella.

802
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 4: When I went water witch and with Clay. Oh, and

803
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 4: first off, I know Clay doesn't like calling it water

804
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 4: witching because he thinks it kind of sounds like sorcery.

805
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 4: But that's how I knew it as a kid, is

806
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 4: water witching. I'm at Waterwitch and with Clay down in

807
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 4: the Florida Everglades. We were down there doing a different

808
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 4: work project, but it came up that he was going

809
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 4: to do some water witching, and we happened to know

810
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 4: an area where there had been some water lines under

811
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 4: the ground.

812
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 3: If I remember correctly of something like that.

813
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 4: So we knew a test site, okay, and Clay rigged

814
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 4: up his witch and rod. I was very skeptical. I

815
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: remained very skeptical. But it's hard to explain something when

816
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 4: you're holding those wires. Something's happening. Something's happening that I

817
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 4: can't explain. Maybe it's like your pulse goes up, some

818
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 4: kind of electromagnetic thing in your body. I don't know,

819
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 4: but I would be walking along regardless of what was

820
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 4: going on, subserve. I would be walking along, and there

821
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 4: would be like unmistakable activity in the rod, in the

822
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 4: witch and rod, and try as I might, I just

823
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 4: couldn't figure out like what I was doing, what I

824
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 4: could be doing personally that would drive the movement of

825
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 4: the rod right, just trying to hold like as stationary

826
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 4: as possible, and that sucker would bend. And yeah, I

827
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 4: can see where people get the idea that something's happening

828
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 4: and it's detecting water, some kind of magnetic whatever. I

829
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 4: can't explain it, but I'll tell you a quick story.

830
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 4: Just the other day, we were having a conversation about ghosts. Okay,

831
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 4: who believes in ghosts and who doesn't believe in ghosts.

832
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 4: A dear friend of mine gives his ghost story, all right.

833
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 4: His ghost story is that one time his dog freaked

834
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 4: out in the middle of the night and kept staring

835
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 4: into a bedroom, an empty bedroom, and then wouldn't stop

836
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 4: staring in air, and then went and looked on the bed. Okay,

837
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 4: So he's like, therefore, or that's a ghost story. Now

838
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 4: when I hear that story, I'm.

839
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: Like, I don't know.

840
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 4: Maybe the mouse ran through there, maybe the dog was

841
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,479
Speaker 4: tripping out, like the fact that that happens. I can't

842
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 4: jump to that. It's like ghost like. There could be

843
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 4: all these other explanations. Same with the witch and rod.

844
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 4: The witch and rod is moving. I just can't tell

845
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 4: that it's not me doing it right, or like some

846
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 4: impulse in my body or some ever so slight moment,

847
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 4: or like your palms get sweaty. I don't know, rather

848
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 4: than it's detecting subsurface water or structures. But again, something's

849
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 4: going on in the rids. I just don't know what

850
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: it is.

851
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: You have no idea. How satisfied it was to see

852
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: Steve holding those witch and sticks and watching them move.

853
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: His head was spinning backwards. But I now want to

854
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: introduce you to a professional who has the most practical

855
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 1: insight that we've heard yet.

856
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 8: My name is Colin Deaton. I live in Marble, Arkansas,

857
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 8: in Madison County. Been in the commercial construction industry for

858
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 8: twenty one years doing excavation and underground utilities site work.

859
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 8: I would say over twenty one years in doing the

860
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 8: what I do for a living, I've probably witched and

861
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 8: confirmed the accuracy of what I've witched out thousands of times.

862
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: Colin, would you describe yourself as like a normal person?

863
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 3: It's probably debatable, but yeah, have you had.

864
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: Any history of deep mental illness or any witchcraft in

865
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 1: your background?

866
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: Not?

867
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: To my knowledge, You're like a very normal, very rational,

868
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: clean cut smart guy.

869
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 8: Thank you. It's nice.

870
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: It's not a weirdo, folks. That's what I'm trying to

871
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 1: tell you, normal people. Water witch.

872
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 8: Well, the first time I heard about the dow was

873
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 8: from Grandpa father. People like that about finding water for wealth.

874
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 8: But I really didn't know anything about it until I

875
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 8: started doing it for commercial construction, locating utilities and such.

876
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 8: First formul I had. Benny Alvard is the first one

877
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 8: to tell me about it, and I kind of thought

878
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 8: it was a joke like one of the go get

879
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 8: the pipe stretcher thing. Here, hold these things, I'll show

880
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 8: you how to how to find the line. But after

881
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 8: doing it several times and seeing something actually get dug

882
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 8: up where we located it, I started to believe. And

883
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 8: then now I just do it every day if I

884
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 8: want to know where something is.

885
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: It feels to me like there's two two categories of

886
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 1: people that talk about this stuff, and most media focuses

887
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: on like the folksy people that are that say they're

888
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: able to find underground natural water. But then there's this

889
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 1: other group of people that actually are carrying thousand rods

890
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: in their truck on a daily basis, not trying to

891
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: be folksy or cute.

892
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 7: Right.

893
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: Construction people that literally are trying to find stuff underground.

894
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 8: Yeah, you see it all the time, or I do

895
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 8: every day. Every contractor I've ever work with does the

896
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 8: same thing. It's not nobody thinks it's too crazy.

897
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: We've talked about this at length, But you can use

898
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: metal rods to find all types of underground utilities. Yep,

899
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of weird but true. There are companies that

900
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: sell commercial witch and sticks that have handles making it

901
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: where you actually aren't even touching the rods. They spend

902
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: completely on their own. Once again, can the ideo motor

903
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 1: effect transfer through a handle into a rod. I don't

904
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: know how confident would you be right now to walk

905
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: out into my yard, which you've never been here before.

906
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: How confident are you that you could find my waterline?

907
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 8: If you've got a water line go into your house

908
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 8: with which I would assume you do. Yeah, I could

909
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 8: show you where it's you I want to know.

910
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: So you're that confident in what you do.

911
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 8: It might take me a little bit, but I could

912
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 8: sort it out. Sometimes you want to take cues from

913
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 8: things you see already, just to verify, because you can

914
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 8: locate anything, not just water lines. Like I could locate

915
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 8: a tree root out there and think it's your water line.

916
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 8: I would have to play with it a little bit,

917
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 8: walk around, but then I could get confident.

918
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: So you are using all kind of clues, like you're

919
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: not just using exactly what's in your hand. You're using exactly.

920
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 8: I mean, the witch and sticks are going to cross

921
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 8: up if there's something underground, whether it's a water sewer,

922
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 8: electric communication, tree root extension, I could walk over that

923
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 8: cord right there, and it would cross up. It could

924
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 8: be an extension cord laying on the ground. Power to it,

925
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 8: no power to it.

926
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: I think that's where we lose people, is you're like, now,

927
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: wait a minute. It'll cross over an electric line, a

928
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: gas line. This is where it gets really freaky. They

929
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: will cross one hundred percent of the time over a

930
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: grave or.

931
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 8: A found an old foundation that's buried.

932
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: Yes, it's it's it's picking up on something because it

933
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: is not. I mean that. What does it feel like

934
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: when they move in your hands?

935
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 8: You don't really feel it? Yeah, I mean because you

936
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 8: have to keep your hands pretty loose on it or

937
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 8: they won't move if there's restriction there, So you don't

938
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 8: really feel it. You just kind of feel them as

939
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 8: they slide.

940
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: It feels like a magnet to me. That's the way

941
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: I would describe it, like magnetism. Like making these rods cross.

942
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: This brings up an odd and confusing point. You hold

943
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: metal witching sticks loosely so they can move on their own,

944
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: But when you hold a green forked limb you can

945
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: hold it as tight as you want. Hey, boys, I

946
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: don't make the rules, I just know them. And this

947
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: is just wild kind of unrelated. But doctor kin Effect

948
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: told me that there is a sophisticated, high dollar instrument

949
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: that they use to measure gravity and it's able to

950
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: detect grave As I understand it, it's because of the

951
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: hollow casket creating an almost imperceivable distance in gravity. Point being,

952
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: there is some unusual stuff going on in the universe,

953
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: like to me. I'm not claiming to be good at it,

954
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: but I can tell you it is like gravity. There's

955
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: no question, like I don't have to summon spirits or

956
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: prey or it's like there's nothing supernatural going on here.

957
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: This is a force that is equivalent to gravity that

958
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: works every time, it doesn't not work sometimes. Now I'm

959
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: not saying it's always accurate.

960
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, Okay, to that point, I can get false positives, right,

961
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,720
Speaker 8: is what I would call it. I've done that before.

962
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 8: Thought I was witching something, Doug, Doug, Doug didn't find it.

963
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 8: Maybe there's something deeper than what I was digging. I

964
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 8: can't explain that sometimes, but I've never a false negative,

965
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 8: you know, like I've never I'm hug and oh my goodness,

966
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 8: I didn't see that. I didn't think that was there. Yeah,

967
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 8: if there's something there I always cross up on it. Yeah,

968
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 8: I if I witch out of square before I dig

969
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 8: and I don't find anything, I'm one hundred percent confident

970
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 8: that there's nothing in that square.

971
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: If the IDEO motor effect is real, then it makes

972
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: me wonder what else in my life is completely fabricated

973
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: that I'm convinced is one hundred percent real. That's a

974
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: scary question. Human perception is frail. We all know people

975
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: that live in a delusional world in some part of

976
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 1: their life. It's easy to see in someone else, but

977
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: hard to see in your own life. But to blindly

978
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: accept the idio motor effect is one hundred percent true

979
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: seems frail logic too. I'm no expert, but here's a

980
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 1: quote from an academic paper on the IDEO motor effect.

981
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: Despite its long history and the theoretical and port it

982
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: existing empirical evidence for the IDEO motor theory is not

983
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: strong enough to rule out an alternative hypothesis. End of quote.

984
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to misrepresent the research. They believe that

985
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: it validated the effect. However, sounds to me like it's

986
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 1: not as straightforward as gravity. There is some presumption, and

987
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: it sounds like believing this takes some faith in something too.

988
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: This stuff is just hard to quantify. It's possible, though,

989
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: that the answer is deeper. I want to ask doctor

990
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: Kinneffect an existential question about knowledge. How much do you

991
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: feel like we actually know about physics because here we

992
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,280
Speaker 1: are in twenty twenty five, where we're at the pinnacle

993
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: of human knowledge and intelligence and awareness of our universe?

994
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: Or we assume that? And do you feel like they're

995
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: more unanswered questions than when you started?

996
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 6: Oh, there absolutely are more unanswered questions all the time.

997
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 6: In many ways, the development of science involves the creation

998
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 6: of questions non answers. I don't mean we're uninterested in answers.

999
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 6: They're great. But usually when you get an answer, you

1000
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 6: get more questions. And that's certainly true in my field.

1001
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 6: We are, at one sense, much higher than where we

1002
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 6: started in terms of reaching a pinnacle.

1003
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 3: That's clear.

1004
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 6: Newton himself said, you know, I stood on the shoulders

1005
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 6: of giants, right. He could see further than the people

1006
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 6: before him. And we can see further than Newton could see.

1007
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 6: But we're conscious of not being near the summit. We're

1008
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 6: not near the pinnacle.

1009
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: Really, just your like personal engagement with physics, and you've

1010
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: dedicated your career and your life to this for a

1011
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 1: long time. Yes, does it feel like you're moving towards

1012
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: something that is infinite in a way, Like even if

1013
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: twenty five years from now, if we had this conversation,

1014
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: would we be any closer to understanding everything?

1015
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 6: That is a good question, and I can't tell you

1016
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,439
Speaker 6: for sure whether we'll be closer. And it's unclear, of course,

1017
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 6: how we would define closer, because we're approximating to something

1018
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 6: we don't know. We don't know what the real true

1019
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 6: laws are. We only know what our discoveries are. How

1020
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,919
Speaker 6: close we are to the real truth is I think

1021
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 6: fundamentally unknowable. I don't mean that we can say our

1022
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 6: ideas now seem to be better than they were before,

1023
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 6: because I think that is fair. I mean, we have

1024
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,919
Speaker 6: learned a lot, But how close we are to being

1025
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 6: as it were done is another question. And we know

1026
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 6: that at times in the past when physicists thought they

1027
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 6: were close to being done, they weren't.

1028
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: Water witching merges the biases and frailty of human psychology

1029
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: with the great mysteries of physics exposing our inherent potential

1030
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: for deception. My final conclusion or at least right now

1031
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: is simply this. There is something to it, something is

1032
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: moving the sticks, and I have not heard an answer

1033
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: that completely satisfies me. So if you've got the gall

1034
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: take some clothes hangers and go out in your yard

1035
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: and try to find your waterline. And I'm not saying

1036
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: you should get a water witcher to come to your

1037
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: house if you drill a well, but it seems like

1038
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: it might put the odds in your favor. So I

1039
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: probably would, and maybe I'd do it for no other

1040
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: reason than to acknowledge my limited understanding of the universe.

1041
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: And after all this, I am just a little less

1042
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: confident in my own perception of reality. And I think

1043
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: that's good. I think it keeps us humble. It's clear

1044
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: of the things modernity has given us, so much of

1045
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: it good, but we have no idea what we've lost.

1046
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Bear Grease. Please share our

1047
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: podcast with a friend this week, leave us a review

1048
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: on iTunes, and be sure to check out the new

1049
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: Bear Griefs merch on the media website. We've got some

1050
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: sweet mossy oak bear grease hats. Keep the wild places wild,

1051
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: because that's where the bears live.