WEBVTT - Sheryl Sandberg: Living Option B 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.160 I used to think if someone was going through something hard, 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.080 the first time I saw them, I would say I'm sorry, 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:11.399 and then I would never bring it up again, because 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:12.840 you know, they should bring it up if they wanted 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:14.720 to talk. Right, you're afraid you're going to hurt them 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.119 or re traumatized. Right, I'm going to remind them. You 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.400 can't remind me Dave died. To this day, you can't 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:22.440 remind me if you say I'm sorry. If you're a loss, 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:27.520 I'm not like, oh, Dave died. Hi, Brian. That was 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.840 Cheryl Sandberg during a conversation at the Street Why And 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.800 to quote Bill O'Reilly, you were doing it live. I 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.200 was doing it live with Cheryl and her co author 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.360 Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist who teaches at the 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.120 University of Pennsylvania at the Wharton School, and together they 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.680 have written a book called Option B. And I have 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.360 to say it was a very personal interview in front 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.600 of a live audience at the Y. It was kind 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:57.360 of a meeting of the minds in some ways, in 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.240 a meeting of the hearts. Tragically, you and Cheryl have 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.600 a lot in common in that respect. You both lost 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:08.080 your husband's young her husband, Dave Goldberg, died a couple 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.200 of years ago due to a cardiac arrhythmia while they 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.760 were on vacation, and this book really came out in 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.280 the wake of that tragedy and her family trying to 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.679 pick up the pieces and figure out how to go on. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.119 The book is a deeply personal account of what it's 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.440 like to lose someone you love at such a young 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.560 age and so suddenly. And I think what Cheryl is 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:32.960 trying to do with this book is to not only 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.880 tell her personal story, but to help people deal with 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.280 all kinds of hardships and how you can be resilient, 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.840 how you can find joy. But there are certain concrete 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.800 steps you can take that may help speed up the 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.120 healing process in a way. Well, that's something else you 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.680 have in common. You both try to take these these 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:56.520 horrible circumstances and turn them into something productive for other people. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.680 You in terms of your your advocacy for cancer research 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:03.520 and and her in terms of helping others build resilience 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.360 after a tragedy. She is arguably the most well known 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.840 and successful female executive in this country, and people are 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.640 extremely interested in her. But the fact that she's opened 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.880 up and shown this vulnerability I think has made people 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.919 see a very different side of her, and we certainly 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:26.560 did when I interviewed her and Adam at the Street Wide. 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:32.800 Let's take a listen. Hi everyone, good evening. Nice to 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.919 see all of you here tonight. Um really looking forward 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.600 to this conversation, and I know many of you are 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.640 as well. So Cheryl, let me start with you because 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.960 I want to explain sort of your relationship with Adam, 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.520 and I know you and Dave got to know Adam 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.120 after Dave had read one of his books. He asked 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.760 Adam to come speak at his company, survey Monkey, and 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:59.959 he was incredibly supportive. Adam was, you're getting very emotional, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:07.760 are you okay? Okay? But I think according to the book, 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:12.160 when you all really bonded was when you called Adam 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:15.960 after you received a letter that left you utterly devastated. 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.480 Tell us about that. It was a few weeks after 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.400 Dave died, and you know a lot of people Adam 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.280 kept saying even before that, you kept saying it gets better, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:30.959 but it didn't feel like it would ever get better. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.520 I felt like there's a void closing in on me. 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:36.880 My brother in law Rob described it as a boot 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.360 pushing on his chest, and you've been through it. Grief 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.600 is really overwhelming, you feel. I felt like I wasn't 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.200 going to live through a day, a minute, a week. 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:49.840 And then I got this letter from a woman who 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.240 I know. She meant well, she was older, she lost 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.760 her husband, and what she wrote was, I wish I 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.760 had something to say to you, but I don't because 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.600 it's been years and it really doesn't get much easier. 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.480 And a friend of mine lost her husband ten years ago, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.680 and it doesn't get easier. And I was not strong 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.200 enough to read that letter. And actually I'm sitting on 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.839 the stage with the two people I called. I called you, Katie, 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.000 and you were a dear friend, and you told me 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:24.599 she was wrong particularly helpful. Either it was very helpful. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.240 I was helpful. She wasn't it right. She was wrong 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.400 and unhelpful, but she meant well, you know, And I'm 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.400 still grateful that she took the time to write. She 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.920 was trying. And I learned something important after that, and 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.560 I called Adam and Adam said she was wrong. And 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:43.919 then the next day, when I was at my son's 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.360 football game. You know, Adam lives in Philadelphia. I live 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.599 in California, Adam walked in and I said, what are 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.600 you doing here? Like, what are you doing here? He's 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.839 on like the football field in Palo Alto, and he 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.240 said he needed to tell me in person that this 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.479 wasn't true and that it was isn't going to be 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.160 true for me. Adam, tell me what else you told 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.280 Cheryl when you saw her on that football field. I 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.680 remember I remember describing the person who wrote the letter, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.599 who I don't know, using some words that I can't 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:17.560 stay on stage tonight. But she meant, well, I'm sure 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:22.400 she did. I thought she was evil, but uh what 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:24.840 I think the main thing that I said to Cheryl is, 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.240 look that that does not have to be your experience 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.000 right there. There are people who end up, you know, 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.000 just suffering for years or decades, um. But this is 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.880 something that you can you can gain control over. And 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.400 the question is really, what are you going to do 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.840 to build resilience, not not just for yourself but also 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.640 for your children? Um. And that started this conversation that's 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.839 now been going on for two years, which really was 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.560 the genesis for this book. I think the combination of 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:56.120 your Facebook post that got received incredible outpouring and then 0:05:56.320 --> 0:06:00.560 Adams sound advice and expertise in this area. You decided 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.400 you wanted to to share your experiences to help other people, 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.440 but we decided to write the book away later. But 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.039 I think the genesis was the first. Adam came to 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.640 the funeral and everyone else kind of left my house, 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:15.880 and I asked him to stay because he was my 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.159 friend who is a psychologist, and I remember looking at 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:20.599 him and saying, you know, how do I get my 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.480 kids through this? What do I do? You know, tell 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:27.120 me what to do? And Adam did what was incredibly 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.599 useful for me as he started summarizing the research and 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.440 sending me here, there's been a longitudinal study of children 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.120 who lost parents and head parents who were divorced. Here's 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.720 what it says you do, and here's what psychologists teach 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.240 us about grief and resilience and building it. And I 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.200 mean anyone. I'm sure there's so many people in this 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.680 audience who have been through real trauma and real tragedy, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.080 and there's a lot to it, but one of the 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.320 core things is this unbelievable feeling of loss of control. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.680 You just have no control, You can't fix it, it 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.240 can't go away. And knowing there was something you could do, 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.320 even if it won't because it entirely but even take 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.840 one step to make it a little bit better. It 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.680 was something I desperately needed and couldn't find anywhere else where. 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:09.720 Why we wrote the book. We're going to talk about 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:11.600 some of those things in a moment. But I liked 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.880 what the rabbi who led Day's Day's funeral told you. 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.640 He said, lean into the suck, correct, which was a 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.640 very different kind of leaning in, right, Carol, I looked 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:24.880 at him in shock. I said, that wasn't what we meant. 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.400 What did he mean by that? Well, it was really 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.520 good advice because as much as I was trying to 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.960 gain some sense of control and take some steps, I 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:39.120 also had to know that I couldn't control this, and 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:40.960 the grief would come, and it would come for me 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:42.520 and it would come for my children, and I just 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.000 had to accept those feelings. And when he told me 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.280 to lean into the suck, it was saying no, the 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.520 grief will come, and stop fighting it. And when I 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.440 stopped fighting it, it definitely got easier. Because I think 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.240 what happens is you're grief stricken, and then you're grieving. 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.640 You're grieving, you're anxious, and then you're anxious. You're anxious, 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.800 and so the feelings pylon and pylon, and when I 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.240 just accepted, Okay, this completely sucks and I am going 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:11.440 to have horrible times, horrible moments to to stay accepting 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.280 those feelings. Lets me process them and they pass more quickly. 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.880 I know that you write grief is a demanding companion. Uh, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.360 and Adam, you described three things in the book that 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.960 can really keep people from emerging from the abyss, and 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.720 you call them the three piece. Can you tell us 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.120 briefly what those are? Yeah, this is I think this 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:32.920 is the kind of friendship that we all want, right 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.439 when you're in severe pain and one of your friends 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.240 says to you, here, I know it will cheer you up. 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:44.240 Data it worked for me. Yeah, in Cheryl's case it did. 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.679 Maybe maybe the only person where that would be true. 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.640 But um, this is something that's always been resonant for me. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.320 In Psychologist, it's Marty Seligman's work who said, look, there 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.600 are these three traps that we all run into when 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.240 something goes bad in our lives. The first one is 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.520 as personal as I and saying this is all my fault. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.360 The second one is pervasiveness. This is going to ruin 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.520 every part of my life. And then the third one 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.560 is permanence. I'm going to feel this way forever. And 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.280 when you get into those traps, it's really hard to recover. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.760 And so we started talking about, you know, how do 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.240 you overcome those traps and move forward. It seems to me, Cheryl, 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.520 that the personalization, the idea that oh, I should have 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.000 gotten Dave to eat a healthier diet, or I should 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.400 have been in the gym that day, or I should 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.680 have should have should have that you were able to 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:34.079 kind of understand that it wasn't your fault pretty quickly. Well, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.360 I wish that were the case. I really didn't at first. 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.640 I mean, the initial reports told us that Dave had 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.360 died falling off an exercise machine. And my brother is 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.360 a neurosurgeon, and he kept saying to me an increasing volume, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.520 that is not true. A man Dave's age did not 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.559 fall off an exercise machine. He would have broken an arm. 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.920 Something happened, And then we had got the autopsy back, 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.520 but that took a while, and we learned he died 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.560 of a cardiac arrhythmia. So then it was why didn't 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.040 I know he had coronary artery disease. Forget his doctors. 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.160 Why didn't I diagnose it diddy of chest pains. It 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.560 sounds silly, but I spent a lot of time with 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.560 doctors medical records trying to figure out how I blew 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.520 the most important thing in my life. And then once, 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.000 you know, my family not so gently pointed out that 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.559 I wasn't a doctor and I couldn't have done that. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.160 Everyone else in my family is a doctor, by the way. 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.760 They You know, I blame myself for everything else. My 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.680 mother gave up her life. She's here with me tonight 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.560 to stay with me. For a month, people were covering 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.640 all my client meetings at Facebook. I had lots to 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.720 blame myself for. And then it was Adam who looked 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.319 at me and explained personalization and said, here's the thing. 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.800 If you don't stop blaming yourself, your kids can't recover 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.920 because if you don't recover, they can't recover it. And 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.319 he said, you gotta stop saying sorry. Oh, that's right. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.200 In fact, you kept saying I'm sorry to everyone all 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:54.440 the time. Why was that because you felt like you 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.960 were a burden, You felt that you had disrupted their lives. Yeah, 0:10:57.960 --> 0:10:59.800 a huge burden. I mean I went back to work 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.440 and I was only there the hours my kids were 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.920 at school, so very limited schedule. I did no travel 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.720 for six months. I did no dinners. I still do 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.280 basically no dinners because I have to be home with 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.040 my children. You know, I'm an only parent now, and 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.000 so you know, I had a lot to apologize for. 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.480 And at home, people were coming over to help me 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.360 go to sleep. I couldn't walk into my room that 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.760 I shared with Dave for a very long time by myself. 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.640 So my friends and sister had a schedule of coming 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.480 over so literally like go to sleep with me as 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.840 if I was a child. And I just felt terrible 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.000 all the time, and it was my fault. It was 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.719 my fault. I was such a burden on everyone. Personalization, though, 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.160 was so common. I think it's the guilt. Why could have, 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.600 would have? Should have I have that with Jay? Why 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.640 didn't I notice he was getting thin? Why didn't I 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.480 have him get a colonoscopy? I mean, all these things 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.160 that I think you blame yourself for. I think primarily 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:54.000 because guilt, anger, and all these other emotions adam are 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:58.160 easier to handle than profound sadness. Yeah, I think they 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.320 often are. And you know, I remember Cheryl calling and 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.160 saying things like I'm really sorry, and I'm like, who 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.120 is this? There's no introduction, it's it's just a policy 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:13.719 right after that, and it's so common, right, It is 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.480 really hard to deal with with emotions that you can 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:18.679 do nothing about. Right to just say, yeah, you know what, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.280 David has gone, I can't bring him back might be 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.199 a much harder thing to accept than to say, you 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.320 know what, maybe you know there's something that I could 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.920 have done differently permanence though I know Cheryl from reading 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.120 the book that that was really the most challenging of 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.320 the piece for you, the idea that you would never 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.160 be happy, that the kids would never have a father, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.080 all those things that kind of haunted you. How were 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.800 you able to escape from those feelings? And that's sort 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.120 of the chains of that particular p What was people 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.000 telling me it would get better? You, Katie, were a 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.079 great friend, and I know we were friendly but not 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.880 as close before, but you jumped in and called me 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.600 and said I've been through this, and you kept telling 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.280 me it got better, and you were more credible than 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.280 other people because you have been through the same thing. 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.319 Let's talk for a minute. I just want to. I 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.160 actually had this question earlier but got off track of 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.280 it because I want to. I want to talk that 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.440 Dave for a minute. Dave, I think was so beloved. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:24.559 It was such a special person, incredibly generous. I didn't 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.120 know Dave well. My husband, actually, who's here, sat next 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.040 to him at some Bluebird event and Dave turned to 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.560 John and said, what are you doing here? And John said, 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:34.520 I'm married to Katie Curtic, and he said, what are 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:39.000 you doing here? She I'm married to Cheryl Samberg and 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.520 they both started laugh which was so funny. They're very 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.400 accomplished in their own right, by the way. But you know, 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.400 I don't think i've heard anybody Sheryl ever say an 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:54.040 unkind word about Dave. What were the qualities that made 0:13:54.160 --> 0:14:00.040 him so special and so beloved by so many and 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.280 most of all you, I mean, Dave. Dave was amazing. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.120 He was brilliant and funny. But I think the reason 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.400 he is and was so beloved is he was really generous. 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:13.760 At the funeral, I've never seen this done. Our friend 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.679 Zander stood up in his eulogy and looked at the 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.080 crowd and said, how many people here had their life 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.120 changed by Dave coltwork and like all these hands went up. 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.040 See of hands. And to this day I meet people 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.320 not every month, every week who will say not I 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.600 met your husband. He said something interesting, It was Dave 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.200 changed my life and here's how, And he really did. 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.400 He went out of his way for so many people. 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.080 He was so generous with his he gave such good advice. 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.480 Mark Zuckerberg said this of him. Mark said that some 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.320 people are generous and want to give a lot of advice, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.080 and some people give really good advice. But very rarely 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.040 do those two things come together because the people who 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:53.880 can give the really good advice don't of the time 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.480 to give a lot of it. And he said Dave 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.880 was unique because Dave gave incredible advice and would put 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.200 incredible amounts of time in it. And so a lot 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.440 of people have asked me, you know, kind of why 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.240 why are you writing a book on grief and talking 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.920 about this. I know I'm doing this, and I'm doing 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.280 this because if Dave Goldberg were alive just in the 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.320 last two years, he would have helped so many people 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.080 because he did it all the time. And so if 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.800 option B can help anyone else, even one person face 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:26.680 adversity and find resilience. It extends Dave Goldberg's life because 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:38.280 nothing could honor his legacymore. We're going to take a 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.680 quick break now, but we'll be back with more from 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:52.160 Chryl Sandberg and Adam Grant right after this. And now 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.280 back to our interview with Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant. 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:02.680 What motivated you to post that incredible, doubly personal Facebook 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.400 post and really sharing with people in a way Cheryl 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.800 that I don't think, you know, many people would feel 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:13.400 comfortable sharing. Um, it was extraordinary, But tell me about 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.200 the thought process that went into that. It was approaching 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.160 the thirty day mark after the burial, which in the 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.760 Jewish tradition is shallow shame. It's the Jewish period of 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.400 morning for a spouse, So it was supposed to be over, 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.120 and I couldn't feel less like it was over. And 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.680 it wasn't just the grief, but it was the isolation, 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:30.600 you know. I used to drop my kids off at 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.840 school and everyone would say hi, and I'd walk into 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.000 work and everyone chit chat, and after Dave died, most 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.520 of that was fun because I think people were so 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.920 afraid to say the wrong thing, that they didn't say 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.320 anything at all, and you know, rooms were quiet when 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.200 I walked in, and you could see the quiet around 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.720 me in the school, you know, kid kid drop offline. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.280 And so I had been journaling, and so I wrote 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:52.960 a post which was what I would say if I 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:54.720 would say something. And I went to sleep the night 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:56.840 before thinking there's zero chance on posting this. This is 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.560 a way too way too personal. And I woke up 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.760 the next morning and it was so bad that I 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.120 thought this can't get that worse and it might get better. 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.159 And even then I realized I work at Facebook, and 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.439 I realized I posted it publicly. I didn't really realize 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.760 how public it would be. I felt like, I know, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.320 I knew I was posting it publicly. I just didn't 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:17.920 think so many people would pay attention. I thought the 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.520 people who would read it were the people who worked 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.879 at Facebook, the people were walking by me and not 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.119 saying hi anymore, and the people at the school. They 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:26.880 would read it. That's why I was posting it publicly, 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:28.320 not just to my friends. I didn't realize like a 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.400 lot of strangers and news media and stuff would write 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.320 about it. I know, we're not always that smart, but 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:36.800 I was speaking to the people I was going through 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:41.000 my life interacting with, and it really helped, despite how 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.360 broad it was, and that was uncomfortable at the time. 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:45.720 Um a friend of mine at work told me that 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.680 she had been driving by my house and not coming 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:53.879 in for a month, almost every day, and she started 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.119 coming in strangers. A woman posted from the Niku that 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.639 she had just lost one of two twins and she 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.080 was finding the strength inside her to give the surviving 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.080 twin of great life. And another woman said, I lost 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.280 one of two twins. Do you want to talk? And 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.080 it definitely did not take away any of the grief, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.560 but it changed the isolation, and it really changed it 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.520 in very deep ways. Everyone started talking to me again. 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.760 People would say how are you today? Even strangers I 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.680 passed would say how are you today? And while I 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.120 didn't mean to do it that broadly, I'm so glad 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.760 I did because it really changed it for me. I 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:33.800 took away the horror of the isolation. Let's talk about that, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.480 about the fact that when people are suffering or dealing 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.440 with tragedy or faith themselves are sick. Because I think 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.000 Jay had this experience, he said, being sick like this 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.280 is the loneliest experience in the world. But also if 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.960 you lose someone, people feel very uncomfortable. So, Cheryl, you 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:58.320 learned firsthand about the different approaches that you shouldn't do. 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:01.280 So why don't you talk about the things that people 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.119 said or did that made you feel lonely or and 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.840 more isolated? Because I think this is such an important 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.480 conversation because I think so many of us now. I 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.399 don't feel this way because I've been through it, but 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.880 a lot of people just don't feel comfortable with death 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.840 or grieving or loss and it I think it reminds 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.000 them of their own mortality, honestly, and they just really 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.760 want to keep it at arms length. So let's talk 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.159 about first what people did that they shouldn't do, and 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.480 then we'll talk about what people can do. Right. I 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.240 did an interview for the book that's coming out in 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.439 print in in a few days, and the first reporter 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.520 first question she asked me, she said, so everyone dies, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.480 and everyone knows someone who dies, yet we never we 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.119 don't know how to talk about death. Why it's like 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.159 such a good question, I don't know. But it's not 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:51.920 just death. You want to silence a room, get diagnosed 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.399 with cancer, lose a job, go to prison, have your 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.240 father go to prison. Any of these things. They ussered 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.760 this you would elephant kind of walking behind us. And 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.320 we don't know what to say, so often we say 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.359 nothing at all. So the most important, one of the 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.320 most important things, is acknowledge the pain. And I got 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.960 this wrong before. I used to think if someone was 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:15.800 going through something hard, the first time I saw them, 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.040 I would say I'm sorry, and then I would never 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:19.840 bring it up again, because you know they should bring 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.600 it up if they wanted to talk. Right, you're afraid 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.840 you're going to hurt them or re traumatize. Right, I'm 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.120 going to remind them. You can't remind me Dave died 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.080 to this day, you can't remind me if you say 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:30.800 I'm sorry, if you're a loss, I'm not like, oh, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:37.480 Dave died, I forgot. I didn't forget. I know that. 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.880 And so when people didn't acknowledge it, so much better 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.159 thing to say was I know you're hurting. You may 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.920 or may not want to talk, but I know you're hurting, 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.120 even the second time you see me, or the third 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.920 month or the second year. Your kids were seven and 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.520 ten when Dave died. I know you flew home from Mexico. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.680