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Speaker 1: I used to think if someone was going through something hard,

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Speaker 1: the first time I saw them, I would say I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: and then I would never bring it up again, because

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Speaker 1: you know, they should bring it up if they wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk. Right, you're afraid you're going to hurt them

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Speaker 1: or re traumatized. Right, I'm going to remind them. You

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Speaker 1: can't remind me Dave died. To this day, you can't

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Speaker 1: remind me if you say I'm sorry. If you're a loss,

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Speaker 1: I'm not like, oh, Dave died. Hi, Brian. That was

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg during a conversation at the Street Why And

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Speaker 1: to quote Bill O'Reilly, you were doing it live. I

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Speaker 1: was doing it live with Cheryl and her co author

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Speaker 1: Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist who teaches at the

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Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania at the Wharton School, and together they

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Speaker 1: have written a book called Option B. And I have

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Speaker 1: to say it was a very personal interview in front

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Speaker 1: of a live audience at the Y. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of a meeting of the minds in some ways, in

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Speaker 1: a meeting of the hearts. Tragically, you and Cheryl have

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Speaker 1: a lot in common in that respect. You both lost

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Speaker 1: your husband's young her husband, Dave Goldberg, died a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago due to a cardiac arrhythmia while they

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Speaker 1: were on vacation, and this book really came out in

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Speaker 1: the wake of that tragedy and her family trying to

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Speaker 1: pick up the pieces and figure out how to go on.

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Speaker 1: The book is a deeply personal account of what it's

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Speaker 1: like to lose someone you love at such a young

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Speaker 1: age and so suddenly. And I think what Cheryl is

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Speaker 1: trying to do with this book is to not only

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Speaker 1: tell her personal story, but to help people deal with

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Speaker 1: all kinds of hardships and how you can be resilient,

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Speaker 1: how you can find joy. But there are certain concrete

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Speaker 1: steps you can take that may help speed up the

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Speaker 1: healing process in a way. Well, that's something else you

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Speaker 1: have in common. You both try to take these these

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Speaker 1: horrible circumstances and turn them into something productive for other people.

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Speaker 1: You in terms of your your advocacy for cancer research

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Speaker 1: and and her in terms of helping others build resilience

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Speaker 1: after a tragedy. She is arguably the most well known

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Speaker 1: and successful female executive in this country, and people are

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Speaker 1: extremely interested in her. But the fact that she's opened

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Speaker 1: up and shown this vulnerability I think has made people

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Speaker 1: see a very different side of her, and we certainly

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Speaker 1: did when I interviewed her and Adam at the Street Wide.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. Hi everyone, good evening. Nice to

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Speaker 1: see all of you here tonight. Um really looking forward

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Speaker 1: to this conversation, and I know many of you are

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Speaker 1: as well. So Cheryl, let me start with you because

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Speaker 1: I want to explain sort of your relationship with Adam,

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Speaker 1: and I know you and Dave got to know Adam

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Speaker 1: after Dave had read one of his books. He asked

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Speaker 1: Adam to come speak at his company, survey Monkey, and

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Speaker 1: he was incredibly supportive. Adam was, you're getting very emotional,

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Speaker 1: are you okay? Okay? But I think according to the book,

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Speaker 1: when you all really bonded was when you called Adam

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Speaker 1: after you received a letter that left you utterly devastated.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about that. It was a few weeks after

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Speaker 1: Dave died, and you know a lot of people Adam

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Speaker 1: kept saying even before that, you kept saying it gets better,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't feel like it would ever get better.

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Speaker 1: I felt like there's a void closing in on me.

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Speaker 1: My brother in law Rob described it as a boot

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Speaker 1: pushing on his chest, and you've been through it. Grief

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Speaker 1: is really overwhelming, you feel. I felt like I wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to live through a day, a minute, a week.

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Speaker 1: And then I got this letter from a woman who

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Speaker 1: I know. She meant well, she was older, she lost

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Speaker 1: her husband, and what she wrote was, I wish I

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Speaker 1: had something to say to you, but I don't because

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Speaker 1: it's been years and it really doesn't get much easier.

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Speaker 1: And a friend of mine lost her husband ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't get easier. And I was not strong

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Speaker 1: enough to read that letter. And actually I'm sitting on

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Speaker 1: the stage with the two people I called. I called you, Katie,

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Speaker 1: and you were a dear friend, and you told me

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Speaker 1: she was wrong particularly helpful. Either it was very helpful.

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Speaker 1: I was helpful. She wasn't it right. She was wrong

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Speaker 1: and unhelpful, but she meant well, you know, And I'm

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Speaker 1: still grateful that she took the time to write. She

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Speaker 1: was trying. And I learned something important after that, and

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Speaker 1: I called Adam and Adam said she was wrong. And

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Speaker 1: then the next day, when I was at my son's

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Speaker 1: football game. You know, Adam lives in Philadelphia. I live

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Speaker 1: in California, Adam walked in and I said, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing here? Like, what are you doing here? He's

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Speaker 1: on like the football field in Palo Alto, and he

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Speaker 1: said he needed to tell me in person that this

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Speaker 1: wasn't true and that it was isn't going to be

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Speaker 1: true for me. Adam, tell me what else you told

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Speaker 1: Cheryl when you saw her on that football field. I

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Speaker 1: remember I remember describing the person who wrote the letter,

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Speaker 1: who I don't know, using some words that I can't

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Speaker 1: stay on stage tonight. But she meant, well, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: she did. I thought she was evil, but uh what

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Speaker 1: I think the main thing that I said to Cheryl is,

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Speaker 1: look that that does not have to be your experience

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Speaker 1: right there. There are people who end up, you know,

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Speaker 1: just suffering for years or decades, um. But this is

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Speaker 1: something that you can you can gain control over. And

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Speaker 1: the question is really, what are you going to do

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Speaker 1: to build resilience, not not just for yourself but also

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Speaker 1: for your children? Um. And that started this conversation that's

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Speaker 1: now been going on for two years, which really was

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Speaker 1: the genesis for this book. I think the combination of

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Speaker 1: your Facebook post that got received incredible outpouring and then

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Speaker 1: Adams sound advice and expertise in this area. You decided

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Speaker 1: you wanted to to share your experiences to help other people,

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Speaker 1: but we decided to write the book away later. But

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Speaker 1: I think the genesis was the first. Adam came to

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Speaker 1: the funeral and everyone else kind of left my house,

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Speaker 1: and I asked him to stay because he was my

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Speaker 1: friend who is a psychologist, and I remember looking at

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Speaker 1: him and saying, you know, how do I get my

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Speaker 1: kids through this? What do I do? You know, tell

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Speaker 1: me what to do? And Adam did what was incredibly

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Speaker 1: useful for me as he started summarizing the research and

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Speaker 1: sending me here, there's been a longitudinal study of children

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Speaker 1: who lost parents and head parents who were divorced. Here's

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Speaker 1: what it says you do, and here's what psychologists teach

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Speaker 1: us about grief and resilience and building it. And I

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Speaker 1: mean anyone. I'm sure there's so many people in this

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Speaker 1: audience who have been through real trauma and real tragedy,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot to it, but one of the

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Speaker 1: core things is this unbelievable feeling of loss of control.

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Speaker 1: You just have no control, You can't fix it, it

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Speaker 1: can't go away. And knowing there was something you could do,

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Speaker 1: even if it won't because it entirely but even take

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Speaker 1: one step to make it a little bit better. It

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Speaker 1: was something I desperately needed and couldn't find anywhere else where.

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Speaker 1: Why we wrote the book. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: some of those things in a moment. But I liked

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Speaker 1: what the rabbi who led Day's Day's funeral told you.

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Speaker 1: He said, lean into the suck, correct, which was a

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Speaker 1: very different kind of leaning in, right, Carol, I looked

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Speaker 1: at him in shock. I said, that wasn't what we meant.

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Speaker 1: What did he mean by that? Well, it was really

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Speaker 1: good advice because as much as I was trying to

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Speaker 1: gain some sense of control and take some steps, I

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Speaker 1: also had to know that I couldn't control this, and

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Speaker 1: the grief would come, and it would come for me

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Speaker 1: and it would come for my children, and I just

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Speaker 1: had to accept those feelings. And when he told me

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Speaker 1: to lean into the suck, it was saying no, the

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Speaker 1: grief will come, and stop fighting it. And when I

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Speaker 1: stopped fighting it, it definitely got easier. Because I think

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Speaker 1: what happens is you're grief stricken, and then you're grieving.

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Speaker 1: You're grieving, you're anxious, and then you're anxious. You're anxious,

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Speaker 1: and so the feelings pylon and pylon, and when I

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Speaker 1: just accepted, Okay, this completely sucks and I am going

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Speaker 1: to have horrible times, horrible moments to to stay accepting

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Speaker 1: those feelings. Lets me process them and they pass more quickly.

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Speaker 1: I know that you write grief is a demanding companion. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and Adam, you described three things in the book that

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Speaker 1: can really keep people from emerging from the abyss, and

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Speaker 1: you call them the three piece. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: briefly what those are? Yeah, this is I think this

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Speaker 1: is the kind of friendship that we all want, right

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Speaker 1: when you're in severe pain and one of your friends

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Speaker 1: says to you, here, I know it will cheer you up.

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Speaker 1: Data it worked for me. Yeah, in Cheryl's case it did.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe the only person where that would be true.

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Speaker 1: But um, this is something that's always been resonant for me.

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Speaker 1: In Psychologist, it's Marty Seligman's work who said, look, there

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Speaker 1: are these three traps that we all run into when

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Speaker 1: something goes bad in our lives. The first one is

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Speaker 1: as personal as I and saying this is all my fault.

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Speaker 1: The second one is pervasiveness. This is going to ruin

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Speaker 1: every part of my life. And then the third one

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Speaker 1: is permanence. I'm going to feel this way forever. And

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Speaker 1: when you get into those traps, it's really hard to recover.

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Speaker 1: And so we started talking about, you know, how do

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Speaker 1: you overcome those traps and move forward. It seems to me, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: that the personalization, the idea that oh, I should have

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Speaker 1: gotten Dave to eat a healthier diet, or I should

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Speaker 1: have been in the gym that day, or I should

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Speaker 1: have should have should have that you were able to

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Speaker 1: kind of understand that it wasn't your fault pretty quickly. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wish that were the case. I really didn't at first.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the initial reports told us that Dave had

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Speaker 1: died falling off an exercise machine. And my brother is

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Speaker 1: a neurosurgeon, and he kept saying to me an increasing volume,

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Speaker 1: that is not true. A man Dave's age did not

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Speaker 1: fall off an exercise machine. He would have broken an arm.

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Speaker 1: Something happened, And then we had got the autopsy back,

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Speaker 1: but that took a while, and we learned he died

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Speaker 1: of a cardiac arrhythmia. So then it was why didn't

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Speaker 1: I know he had coronary artery disease. Forget his doctors.

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Speaker 1: Why didn't I diagnose it diddy of chest pains. It

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Speaker 1: sounds silly, but I spent a lot of time with

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Speaker 1: doctors medical records trying to figure out how I blew

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Speaker 1: the most important thing in my life. And then once,

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Speaker 1: you know, my family not so gently pointed out that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't a doctor and I couldn't have done that.

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Speaker 1: Everyone else in my family is a doctor, by the way.

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Speaker 1: They You know, I blame myself for everything else. My

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Speaker 1: mother gave up her life. She's here with me tonight

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Speaker 1: to stay with me. For a month, people were covering

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Speaker 1: all my client meetings at Facebook. I had lots to

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Speaker 1: blame myself for. And then it was Adam who looked

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Speaker 1: at me and explained personalization and said, here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: If you don't stop blaming yourself, your kids can't recover

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Speaker 1: because if you don't recover, they can't recover it. And

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Speaker 1: he said, you gotta stop saying sorry. Oh, that's right.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you kept saying I'm sorry to everyone all

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Speaker 1: the time. Why was that because you felt like you

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Speaker 1: were a burden, You felt that you had disrupted their lives. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a huge burden. I mean I went back to work

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Speaker 1: and I was only there the hours my kids were

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Speaker 1: at school, so very limited schedule. I did no travel

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Speaker 1: for six months. I did no dinners. I still do

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Speaker 1: basically no dinners because I have to be home with

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Speaker 1: my children. You know, I'm an only parent now, and

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Speaker 1: so you know, I had a lot to apologize for.

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Speaker 1: And at home, people were coming over to help me

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Speaker 1: go to sleep. I couldn't walk into my room that

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Speaker 1: I shared with Dave for a very long time by myself.

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Speaker 1: So my friends and sister had a schedule of coming

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Speaker 1: over so literally like go to sleep with me as

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Speaker 1: if I was a child. And I just felt terrible

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Speaker 1: all the time, and it was my fault. It was

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Speaker 1: my fault. I was such a burden on everyone. Personalization, though,

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Speaker 1: was so common. I think it's the guilt. Why could have,

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Speaker 1: would have? Should have I have that with Jay? Why

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Speaker 1: didn't I notice he was getting thin? Why didn't I

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Speaker 1: have him get a colonoscopy? I mean, all these things

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Speaker 1: that I think you blame yourself for. I think primarily

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Speaker 1: because guilt, anger, and all these other emotions adam are

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Speaker 1: easier to handle than profound sadness. Yeah, I think they

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Speaker 1: often are. And you know, I remember Cheryl calling and

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Speaker 1: saying things like I'm really sorry, and I'm like, who

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Speaker 1: is this? There's no introduction, it's it's just a policy

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Speaker 1: right after that, and it's so common, right, It is

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Speaker 1: really hard to deal with with emotions that you can

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Speaker 1: do nothing about. Right to just say, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 1: David has gone, I can't bring him back might be

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Speaker 1: a much harder thing to accept than to say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, maybe you know there's something that I could

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Speaker 1: have done differently permanence though I know Cheryl from reading

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Speaker 1: the book that that was really the most challenging of

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Speaker 1: the piece for you, the idea that you would never

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Speaker 1: be happy, that the kids would never have a father,

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Speaker 1: all those things that kind of haunted you. How were

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Speaker 1: you able to escape from those feelings? And that's sort

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Speaker 1: of the chains of that particular p What was people

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Speaker 1: telling me it would get better? You, Katie, were a

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Speaker 1: great friend, and I know we were friendly but not

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Speaker 1: as close before, but you jumped in and called me

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Speaker 1: and said I've been through this, and you kept telling

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Speaker 1: me it got better, and you were more credible than

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Speaker 1: other people because you have been through the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk for a minute. I just want to. I

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Speaker 1: actually had this question earlier but got off track of

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Speaker 1: it because I want to. I want to talk that

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Speaker 1: Dave for a minute. Dave, I think was so beloved.

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Speaker 1: It was such a special person, incredibly generous. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know Dave well. My husband, actually, who's here, sat next

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Speaker 1: to him at some Bluebird event and Dave turned to

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Speaker 1: John and said, what are you doing here? And John said,

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Speaker 1: I'm married to Katie Curtic, and he said, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing here? She I'm married to Cheryl Samberg and

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Speaker 1: they both started laugh which was so funny. They're very

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Speaker 1: accomplished in their own right, by the way. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think i've heard anybody Sheryl ever say an

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Speaker 1: unkind word about Dave. What were the qualities that made

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Speaker 1: him so special and so beloved by so many and

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Speaker 1: most of all you, I mean, Dave. Dave was amazing.

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Speaker 1: He was brilliant and funny. But I think the reason

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Speaker 1: he is and was so beloved is he was really generous.

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Speaker 1: At the funeral, I've never seen this done. Our friend

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Speaker 1: Zander stood up in his eulogy and looked at the

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Speaker 1: crowd and said, how many people here had their life

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Speaker 1: changed by Dave coltwork and like all these hands went up.

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Speaker 1: See of hands. And to this day I meet people

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Speaker 1: not every month, every week who will say not I

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Speaker 1: met your husband. He said something interesting, It was Dave

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Speaker 1: changed my life and here's how, And he really did.

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Speaker 1: He went out of his way for so many people.

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Speaker 1: He was so generous with his he gave such good advice.

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg said this of him. Mark said that some

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Speaker 1: people are generous and want to give a lot of advice,

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Speaker 1: and some people give really good advice. But very rarely

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Speaker 1: do those two things come together because the people who

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Speaker 1: can give the really good advice don't of the time

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Speaker 1: to give a lot of it. And he said Dave

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Speaker 1: was unique because Dave gave incredible advice and would put

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Speaker 1: incredible amounts of time in it. And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have asked me, you know, kind of why

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Speaker 1: why are you writing a book on grief and talking

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Speaker 1: about this. I know I'm doing this, and I'm doing

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Speaker 1: this because if Dave Goldberg were alive just in the

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Speaker 1: last two years, he would have helped so many people

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Speaker 1: because he did it all the time. And so if

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Speaker 1: option B can help anyone else, even one person face

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Speaker 1: adversity and find resilience. It extends Dave Goldberg's life because

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Speaker 1: nothing could honor his legacymore. We're going to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break now, but we'll be back with more from

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Speaker 1: Chryl Sandberg and Adam Grant right after this. And now

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Speaker 1: back to our interview with Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant.

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Speaker 1: What motivated you to post that incredible, doubly personal Facebook

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Speaker 1: post and really sharing with people in a way Cheryl

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Speaker 1: that I don't think, you know, many people would feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable sharing. Um, it was extraordinary, But tell me about

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Speaker 1: the thought process that went into that. It was approaching

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Speaker 1: the thirty day mark after the burial, which in the

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Speaker 1: Jewish tradition is shallow shame. It's the Jewish period of

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Speaker 1: morning for a spouse, So it was supposed to be over,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't feel less like it was over. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just the grief, but it was the isolation,

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Speaker 1: you know. I used to drop my kids off at

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Speaker 1: school and everyone would say hi, and I'd walk into

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Speaker 1: work and everyone chit chat, and after Dave died, most

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Speaker 1: of that was fun because I think people were so

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Speaker 1: afraid to say the wrong thing, that they didn't say

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Speaker 1: anything at all, and you know, rooms were quiet when

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Speaker 1: I walked in, and you could see the quiet around

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Speaker 1: me in the school, you know, kid kid drop offline.

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Speaker 1: And so I had been journaling, and so I wrote

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Speaker 1: a post which was what I would say if I

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Speaker 1: would say something. And I went to sleep the night

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Speaker 1: before thinking there's zero chance on posting this. This is

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Speaker 1: a way too way too personal. And I woke up

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Speaker 1: the next morning and it was so bad that I

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Speaker 1: thought this can't get that worse and it might get better.

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Speaker 1: And even then I realized I work at Facebook, and

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Speaker 1: I realized I posted it publicly. I didn't really realize

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Speaker 1: how public it would be. I felt like, I know,

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Speaker 1: I knew I was posting it publicly. I just didn't

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Speaker 1: think so many people would pay attention. I thought the

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Speaker 1: people who would read it were the people who worked

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Speaker 1: at Facebook, the people were walking by me and not

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Speaker 1: saying hi anymore, and the people at the school. They

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Speaker 1: would read it. That's why I was posting it publicly,

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Speaker 1: not just to my friends. I didn't realize like a

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Speaker 1: lot of strangers and news media and stuff would write

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Speaker 1: about it. I know, we're not always that smart, but

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Speaker 1: I was speaking to the people I was going through

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Speaker 1: my life interacting with, and it really helped, despite how

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Speaker 1: broad it was, and that was uncomfortable at the time.

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Speaker 1: Um a friend of mine at work told me that

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Speaker 1: she had been driving by my house and not coming

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Speaker 1: in for a month, almost every day, and she started

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Speaker 1: coming in strangers. A woman posted from the Niku that

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Speaker 1: she had just lost one of two twins and she

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Speaker 1: was finding the strength inside her to give the surviving

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Speaker 1: twin of great life. And another woman said, I lost

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Speaker 1: one of two twins. Do you want to talk? And

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Speaker 1: it definitely did not take away any of the grief,

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Speaker 1: but it changed the isolation, and it really changed it

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Speaker 1: in very deep ways. Everyone started talking to me again.

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Speaker 1: People would say how are you today? Even strangers I

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Speaker 1: passed would say how are you today? And while I

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Speaker 1: didn't mean to do it that broadly, I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: I did because it really changed it for me. I

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Speaker 1: took away the horror of the isolation. Let's talk about that,

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Speaker 1: about the fact that when people are suffering or dealing

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Speaker 1: with tragedy or faith themselves are sick. Because I think

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Speaker 1: Jay had this experience, he said, being sick like this

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Speaker 1: is the loneliest experience in the world. But also if

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Speaker 1: you lose someone, people feel very uncomfortable. So, Cheryl, you

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Speaker 1: learned firsthand about the different approaches that you shouldn't do.

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Speaker 1: So why don't you talk about the things that people

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Speaker 1: said or did that made you feel lonely or and

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Speaker 1: more isolated? Because I think this is such an important

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Speaker 1: conversation because I think so many of us now. I

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Speaker 1: don't feel this way because I've been through it, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of people just don't feel comfortable with death

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Speaker 1: or grieving or loss and it I think it reminds

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Speaker 1: them of their own mortality, honestly, and they just really

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Speaker 1: want to keep it at arms length. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about first what people did that they shouldn't do, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll talk about what people can do. Right. I

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Speaker 1: did an interview for the book that's coming out in

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Speaker 1: print in in a few days, and the first reporter

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Speaker 1: first question she asked me, she said, so everyone dies,

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Speaker 1: and everyone knows someone who dies, yet we never we

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Speaker 1: don't know how to talk about death. Why it's like

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Speaker 1: such a good question, I don't know. But it's not

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Speaker 1: just death. You want to silence a room, get diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with cancer, lose a job, go to prison, have your

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Speaker 1: father go to prison. Any of these things. They ussered

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Speaker 1: this you would elephant kind of walking behind us. And

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Speaker 1: we don't know what to say, so often we say

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Speaker 1: nothing at all. So the most important, one of the

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Speaker 1: most important things, is acknowledge the pain. And I got

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Speaker 1: this wrong before. I used to think if someone was

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Speaker 1: going through something hard, the first time I saw them,

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Speaker 1: I would say I'm sorry, and then I would never

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Speaker 1: bring it up again, because you know they should bring

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Speaker 1: it up if they wanted to talk. Right, you're afraid

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Speaker 1: you're going to hurt them or re traumatize. Right, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to remind them. You can't remind me Dave died

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Speaker 1: to this day, you can't remind me if you say

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, if you're a loss, I'm not like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Dave died, I forgot. I didn't forget. I know that.

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Speaker 1: And so when people didn't acknowledge it, so much better

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Speaker 1: thing to say was I know you're hurting. You may

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Speaker 1: or may not want to talk, but I know you're hurting,

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Speaker 1: even the second time you see me, or the third

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Speaker 1: month or the second year. Your kids were seven and

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Speaker 1: ten when Dave died. I know you flew home from Mexico.

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Speaker 1: You write about it in the book and it's a

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Speaker 1: gut wrenching and heartbreaking seeing. How could it not be

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Speaker 1: when you have to tell your kids that their dad

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Speaker 1: has died. So, I mean you had to do that too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but Ellie was six and Carrie was too, so it's

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Speaker 1: a little different. You know, every situation is different. But

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Speaker 1: yes I did, I did have to do that. But

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Speaker 1: you know, there was something that they said that night

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Speaker 1: when you were tucking them in, that each of them

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Speaker 1: at separate times, I guess during the course of the

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Speaker 1: day that took your breath away and gave you incredible

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Speaker 1: hope for them. Tell us what those were. I mean,

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Speaker 1: telling your children they will not see their father again

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Speaker 1: is horrific. People have asked what was the worst moment

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Speaker 1: of your life? There are many contenders for that prize,

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Speaker 1: but this might be it. Um. Carol Geitner is here tonight,

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Speaker 1: and that's her job, is to counsel grieving children. So

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Speaker 1: I had the great, unbelievable fortune of knowing someone who

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Speaker 1: could help me, and she told me what to say,

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Speaker 1: and I tried to follow her advice. Um, and Thank

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Speaker 1: god I did, because I would just have completely not

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Speaker 1: been prepared. Um. But then my son said, thank you

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Speaker 1: for coming home to tell me yourself. And when I

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Speaker 1: was putting my daughter to bed that night, she said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not just sad for us, I'm sad for Grandma

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Speaker 1: Paula and Uncle Rob because they lost them too. I

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Speaker 1: thought to myself, I have a seven and a ten

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Speaker 1: year old who have just been told they will never

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Speaker 1: see their father again. So it is the worst time

430
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: of their lives, hopefully, and they can think of anyone else.

431
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 1: They are actually capable of thanking me or thinking of

432
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: their grandma and their uncle, and that gave me so

433
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: much hope. And in the really hard moments that followed,

434
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 1: and there were many, I tried to remember that, and

435
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: I didn't always. I can't say I did. You know.

436
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: When they would cry, I would fast forward. You know.

437
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: My son would be crying that his father wasn't going

438
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: to basketball, and I would remember he would never go

439
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: to basketball again. My daughter would cry that all the

440
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: other fathers were at soccer, and I would know he

441
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: would never be there again. But when I could coming

442
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: back to the fact that they could think of other

443
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: people gave me a lot of hope. We always hear

444
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: Adam that children are incredibly resilient when it comes to

445
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: loss or hardship and setbacks. So how can how were

446
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: you able to help Cheryl help her kids? And how

447
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: can we all help kids sort of exercise that resiliency

448
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: muscle if you will. But I don't know that it helped.

449
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: But one of the things that we we talked about

450
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: a lot is this idea of mattering that kids need

451
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: to know first and foremost is that they matter, and

452
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: mattering his three components. It's basically knowing that other people

453
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: notice you, care about you, and rely on you. And

454
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: this is something that I think we all try to

455
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: do with with our children as parents everyday. But it

456
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: becomes even more important in the face of tragedy and

457
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: adversity because you know, they just lost somebody who was

458
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: at the center of their world. You know, we we

459
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: talked about what can you do to make sure that

460
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: your kids still know how much you care about them,

461
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,959
Speaker 1: but also that you're relying on them right that you're

462
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: gonna work through this together. And Cheryl had I thought

463
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: an amazing idea to create family rules to help with this. Yeah,

464
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 1: my kids and I following advice Carol had given me.

465
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 1: We meet family rules there and Marker, they still hang

466
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: up there and in all of the rules. Respecting your feelings.

467
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: It's okay to be angry, It's okay to be happy.

468
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: It's okay to be jealous of other kids who still

469
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: have fathers. Um was you can ask for help. Teaching

470
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: kids that they are not going through it alone, that

471
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: we are going through it together is so important. And

472
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 1: it's not just important in trauma. This is important every

473
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: single day as we teach our kids to try to

474
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: grow up and face whatever adversity they will face. You

475
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: talk about post traumatic growth, which is an expression I've

476
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: never heard, which I really love. And how are they

477
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: doing now? And are the sad moments a lot more

478
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: and frequent than they were? I've definitely compared to the

479
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: beginning crying and the screaming. I mean, we couldn't get

480
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: through an hour. Um. Post traumatic growth is how we

481
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: go through trauma and we grow. There are ways in

482
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: which we grow, and one of them is that we

483
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: gain perspective. The other day, a few weeks ago, my

484
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: son's basketball team lost the playoffs, and you know, a

485
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: lot of the little boys were upset. A couple were

486
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: crying and I looked at my son, I said, are

487
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: you okay? And he goes a mom, this is sixth

488
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: grade basketball. I'm fine. They don't know now. Do I

489
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: want him to have that perspective? Noe? But is it perspective? Yes?

490
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: And being able to celebrate the good and keep the

491
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: bad in perspective is a very, very valuable lesson. And

492
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot, not just about post traumatic growth,

493
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: but about pre traumatic growth. And this is why we

494
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: wrote this book so it can we take the lessons

495
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: that people do learn in trauma and give them to

496
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: people who don't face the trauma. So gratitude. So it

497
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: is the most counterintuitive thing in the world to lose

498
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: your husband and feel more grateful. I thought I should

499
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: look for positive thoughts, and one day Adam looked at

500
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: me and said, you should think about how things could

501
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 1: be worse. Now. Adam is literally one of the most

502
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: brilliant people I've ever met, but I looked at him like,

503
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: you are a total idiot. My husband just died and

504
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: nothing could be worse. And he said, well, Dave could

505
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: have had that cardiac arrhythmia driving your children and in

506
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: that moment, I said up, I'm like, I'm good, kids

507
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: are alive, I'm fine. Like I literally was like, I'm okay.

508
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: And the question is can we appreciate life? What would

509
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: I do to give one day and go back and

510
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: live it with Dave. How would I appreciate that day?

511
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: I can't have that, but I can appreciate this day.

512
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: I can appreciate your friendship and Adam's friendship and that

513
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: we're all here talking about this. My cousin, Laura, lives

514
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: in New York and she turned fifty on Valentine's Day

515
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: and I called her and I said, Laura, I'm calling

516
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: to say happy birthday, but I'm also calling to say

517
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: in case you woke up with that, Oh my god,

518
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: I'm fifty thing right? How many people have done that

519
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: in your life? Oh my god, I'm turning older? I

520
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: said to her and said, this is the year day

521
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: of Goldberg won't turn fifty. Turns out there's two choices,

522
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 1: two options. We grow older or we don't. I will

523
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: never make another joke about growing old again. And if

524
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: anyone makes it in my presence, even if I don't

525
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: know them, I kind of turned around, like, don't say that,

526
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: because it is a gift, and I appreciate life in

527
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: a way I never did before this happened. And the

528
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: question is can people do that who haven't experienced the trauma,

529
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: and we believe they can. Let's talk about confidence, because

530
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: I know, you know, I think probably you're one of

531
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: the most confident people I know, but you're offidence was

532
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: shaken after J after Jay, after Dave died. Um. Why

533
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: why do you think that was the case? Is that

534
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: sort of because you're a classic overachiever and you didn't

535
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: feel like you were doing grief? Well? No, I mean

536
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: it was actually one of the more surprising things that

537
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: happened is that, you know, I had not experienced grief,

538
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: but I had read about it, So when the anger came,

539
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: I wasn't shocked, even though more of it came than

540
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: I would have expected. When the sadness came, at least

541
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: I had heard of that. But what totally surprised me

542
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: is it completely destroyed my confidence in every other aspect.

543
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: And I wrote lean in. I had like studied confidence

544
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: at work. I was supposed to understand it, but you know,

545
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: I went back to work and I could barely get

546
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: through a meeting without crying. So how could I do

547
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: my job? And I had two children parenting as hard

548
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: before this when I had a great supportive partner, and

549
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: I don't have the financial challenges so many single moms have.

550
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: But being a single mother of two grieving children, I

551
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: had no experience with this was was hard. And what

552
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: I really is is that you know, Mark Zuckerberg did this.

553
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: What I needed to build up my confidence wasn't just

554
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: permission to be a mess, but also reassurance that sometimes

555
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't. So when someone at worked before was going

556
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: through something hard, what I would say to them is,

557
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: just take the pressure off. You need time off. Can

558
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: we take that project off you? Oh? Of course, you

559
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: can't think straight with everything you're going through. I did

560
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: that all with good intentions, but on the other side,

561
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: when people said that to me, it was proof that

562
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: I absolutely couldn't do my job. Mark did you don't

563
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: have to come in if you don't want to take

564
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: the time you want. But I think you made a

565
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: good point in that meeting. There's no way I made

566
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: a good point in that meeting. Trust me that it

567
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: was the kindest thing, and you did it over and over.

568
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: In other words, you're needed here and that made you

569
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: feel so much better. So now when people are going

570
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: through things that are hard, and when you look, it's everywhere,

571
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: I both give them time off, but if they're there,

572
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: I go out of my way. If they do anything

573
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: that I can praise, I praise it. You also are

574
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: serious journal or or you're do journaling. I've never done journaling.

575
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: I don't even like that word actually, but but but

576
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: it is talented. It was incredibly helpful to you through

577
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: this this horrible time. But right, I mean it was

578
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: a gift. Tell me why it was so important, Adam,

579
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: and why you recommend what I never do. Well, Look,

580
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: when when most of us sit down to journal, we

581
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, we do it for a few minutes and

582
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: then we kind of get bored and we move on.

583
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: When Show Sandberg sits down to write a journal, it's

584
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand words. But I think that you know,

585
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: the the impulse to journal, which which a lot of

586
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: people have during intense experiences, turns out to be a

587
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: really healthy one. Um. There are hundreds of experiments showing

588
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: that if you even just write a few times for

589
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes each about a traumatic experience, that in the

590
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: short run, in the next few days, you will feel

591
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: worse because it is not fun to relive tragedy. But

592
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: in the weeks and months that follow, not only does

593
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: your happiness improve, but also your physical health tends to increase.

594
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: It also can help with with forming a story right,

595
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: finding some coherence, and saying, look, i may never feel

596
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: this happen for a reason, but I'm going to use

597
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: this experience to find a reason to keep living and

598
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: to find a deeper sense of purpose. And charl I

599
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: thought that was a theme that came through. And a

600
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: lot of your journal interests tell us about writing in

601
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: that journal because I know it. First cheryld you said

602
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: all you did was work, take care of the kids,

603
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: and write journal. Yeah. I always wanted to keep a journal.

604
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: I have boxes of them. I would do five days

605
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: after New Year's and that's it. But after Dave died,

606
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: I I really I wrote, and I needed to write,

607
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: and if I did not write for just a couple

608
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: of days, I felt like I was gonna burst. And

609
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: it was later when Adam and I started doing the

610
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: research for the book that I saw the research that

611
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: said how helpful that can be in processing emotions. And

612
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: then people have asked if the book was hard to write.

613
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: The personal parts of the book were mostly written for

614
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: my journal, so I didn't have to write them for

615
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: the book. So writing the book itself was writing the

616
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: stories of amazing people who have gone through other forms

617
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: of hardship learning the research, and that part was really cathartic.

618
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: You also have a chapter called uh I think it's

619
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: taking that joy? Is that the name of the chapter?

620
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: And and Cheryl, you tell a very poignant story. I

621
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: think we can all kind of put ourselves in your

622
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: shoes in some ways. Where you were at at a

623
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: botto mitzvah, a childhood the daughter of a childhood friend,

624
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: and a certain song came on and there was a

625
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: certain high school crush there and tell us what happened next.

626
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: So it's that four months after Dave died and a

627
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: friend and I went on to the dance floor and

628
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: I danced and like a minute later I just burst

629
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: into tears. You have to say what song it was?

630
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: It was September by Earphone and fire, which I know

631
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: makes me a little I think it creates them, creates them. Yeah,

632
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: but I literally kind of collapsed and he had to

633
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 1: kind of take me outside, and I couldn't figure out

634
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: what was wrong. And what I realized was, oh my god,

635
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: I was happy for one minute, and then I just

636
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: felt so guilty. How can I be happy? Even those

637
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: four months later when Dave was on And what I

638
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: realized was that I needed permission. My brother in law

639
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: called me right around then with tears in his voice.

640
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: He was crying on the phone, and he said, all

641
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: Day've ever wanted was for you and your children to

642
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: be happy. Don't take that away from him and death.

643
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: And I think that when we think about being there

644
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: for people, and a lot of this book is about

645
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: what we do for other people who are going through adversity,

646
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: we think about holding them while they cry, bringing dinner

647
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: to the hospital, but we forget the other side, helping

648
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: them come back to work and build up their confidence,

649
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: giving them permission and experiences that are joyful because we

650
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: all deserve those, and we are hoping that option be

651
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: gives people permission to feel joy, no matter what's happened

652
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: to them, no matter what mistakes they've made, no matter

653
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: what life has handed them. That on the other side,

654
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 1: there's laughter, there's friendship. There are moments when we can

655
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: feel joy and we can notice those and live those

656
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, some of finding joy again

657
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: was actually taking back things that were joyful before um

658
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: And actually, Charlott, I learned so much from this the

659
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: way that you said, look, here are the things that

660
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: you know that that we used to do with Dave

661
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: that made us happy, and we're not going to lose those. Yeah,

662
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: we decided after I realized, you know, I think when

663
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: we think about happiness, we think about the big stuff.

664
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: We're gonna get a promotion, have a baby, take a

665
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: big trip. Happiness. Adam taught me this. It's the little

666
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: things every day and noticing them. And so after this

667
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: experience where I realized this, I started taking things back.

668
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: We started cheering for the Warriors again. Dave and I

669
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: and our family we played Settlers of Katan a lot.

670
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: Everyone in Silicon Valley does. People out here may not,

671
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: but if you don't, you should. But Dave and I

672
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: had been playing the last time I saw him, and

673
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: so that was put away, and I took the board

674
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: out without saying that my kids and said who wants

675
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: to play? And they all said they did, and then

676
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: U we took out the pieces and Dave was always

677
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: gray and my daughter took gray, and my son said,

678
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: you can't be gray. Daddy was great, and I said,

679
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: yes we can. She wants to be gray. We do

680
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: that in Dave's honor, and I realized watching TV playing scrabble,

681
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: these were the things I did with Dave that brought

682
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: me joy. And I wasn't doing any of them because

683
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: they were going to remind me of David. So I

684
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: took them back one by one. You also write, Cheryld

685
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: that that humor is the third rail of grief, and

686
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: that again you've fell a little guilty, but that at times,

687
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: even early on, humor was so helpful to you, even

688
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 1: the day of Jay's God I cot Dave's funeral. Sorry,

689
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: it's okay, Sorry, there's actually something. There's a sort of weird,

690
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: isn't it that I actually think it's meaningful that you're

691
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: saying that, because I think we all live these experiences

692
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: over I find it very touching. Okay, thank you, UM

693
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: that the day of Dave support a good well you are, UM.

694
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: And also he told told a funny story about when UM,

695
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: I think your sister in law, you all were upstairs

696
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: in your room crying, and then you made a joke.

697
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: You guys had very different tastes in movies and television.

698
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: I thank you and Dave, So what did you say

699
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: to your sister? I said, well, at least I don't

700
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: have to watch Dave's bad TV anymore. And then I gasped.

701
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: And actually the first joke I made, Adam reminded me

702
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: I made it because I guess he heard you made it.

703
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: A friend of mine walked in. He was an ex

704
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: boyfriend who now dates men, married a man, and he

705
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: walked in and I said, well, this is your fault.

706
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: You were supposed to be straight, we were supposed to

707
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: get married and none of this would have happened. And

708
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: gasped both of us. It is a really good joke, right,

709
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: But I gasped because joking. But you know what, There's

710
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: a reason people tell jokes at funerals, and now I

711
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: know what it is, which is that that joke gives

712
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: us that one minute of release. And again, we want

713
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: Option B to give people not just permission to grief

714
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: and support in grieving, but permission to laugh. Let's talk

715
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: about let me take some of the questions, because I

716
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: think some of the questions I had are being asked

717
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: by people in the audience. Um, you talk a lot

718
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: about the need for quality partnership as a career woman

719
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: and mom and lean in. How is your thinking and

720
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: reality changed on this since Dave passed, especially as it

721
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: relates to your working life. Yeah, I really did think

722
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: about this. I wrote about different forms of family and

723
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: lean in, but I also wrote a whole chapter called

724
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: make your Partner a Real partner. And once I lost Dave,

725
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: I thought about how that must have been super hard

726
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: to read if you didn't have a partner. In fact,

727
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: you write in the book, I just didn't get it.

728
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: I didn't get it, and I did a post on

729
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: this and that one I knew I was doing publicly,

730
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: and I wanted to do very publicly for Mother's Day

731
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: where I said I didn't get this and we need

732
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: to do better for single mothers, single mothers in this

733
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: country living poverty, if you're Black or Latina, people do

734
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: not get the support they need. And understanding that Father's

735
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: Day is hard for people around you, Understanding that someone

736
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: doesn't have someone to go to the father daughter dances

737
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: with from the very basics of the education and the

738
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: healthcare and the food. Huge numbers of people. You've worked

739
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: on this, and I've worked on this have food and

740
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: security in this in this country, the basics to the

741
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of emotional support. I don't think I understood this

742
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 1: fully and I wanted to publicly apologize. Um, you mentioned

743
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: a single mother, and you know you are a single mother,

744
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: and obviously a lot of your your focus has been

745
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: on being a good mother. But also I think you're

746
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: very much like I am, Cheryl. You your parents are lovely,

747
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: they're here tonight, happily married, had been married a long time,

748
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: and you're you're what we call the marrying kind, just

749
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: like me. And uh, well, I mean I wanted to

750
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: be Mary. It took me a long time. But this

751
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 1: is not about me. So but tell me about how

752
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: you That is very tricky. And I think whether you're

753
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: divorced or uh you're a widow or even a widower,

754
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: and you have children, young children, that is very tough

755
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: to navigate. So and you you write about how women

756
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: are often judged a lot more harshly than men when

757
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: they start to kind of go there. Tell us about

758
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 1: how you made these decisions and how you were able

759
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: to help your kids kind of deal with that, because

760
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 1: that's another adjustment that's really tough. Yeah, you know, when

761
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: people date after losing a spouse, it's worth remembering it's

762
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: not a choice they made. I know who I wanted

763
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: to spend my life with, and I don't have that choice.

764
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: I was lucky. The people that talk to me about

765
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: it were actually my mother in law brother in law,

766
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: both of whom said, we want this for you, but

767
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: can you dis er Jeck cheryld this the passage about

768
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: your mother in law, Paula, when you finally have the

769
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: courage to go through Dave's closet and you found a

770
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: particularly kind of ratty sweater that he used to wear

771
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: a lot, a gray sweater, And I thought this exchange

772
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: was so I just I don't know your mother in law,

773
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: but I love her anyway, tell us about the conversations. Incredible.

774
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: So my mother in law, Paula had lost her husband

775
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: sixteen years before, she lost one of her two sons.

776
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: And if anyone who's ever been through this, and we've

777
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: talked about this, the cleaning out of the closet is

778
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: just one of those things we dread it, we put

779
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: it off. Some of us do it sooner, some of

780
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: us do it later. I did it a couple of

781
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: months in where I just could not walk by that

782
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: stuff anymore. Um, I did it with my mother in

783
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: law and brother in law and I broke down in

784
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: that closet and I looked at her and I said,

785
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: how are you okay? How are you okay? This is

786
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 1: your second closet And she said, I am and I'm

787
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: I did not die, she said, melded and Dave did.

788
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: But I am alive and I will live. And she

789
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: lives a very full life. She runs a nonprofit, She

790
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 1: has friends, she travels. She's with my kids this week

791
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: and they love being with her. And that is the lesson,

792
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: the lesson of she knows that she didn't die. She

793
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: didn't just say though. She said, I'm alive, and you're alive,

794
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: and you will remarry. She said that, She said one

795
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: day you'll remarry, and I will be there. And it

796
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: was permission to date. And I didn't do it for

797
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: months and months and months. I mean it was a

798
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: way early, but the fact that it came from her,

799
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: but she lost someone. And I think again, as we

800
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: think about supporting people, we dry their tears, we help

801
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: them get through the hard stuff, but give them permission

802
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: and support to date, particularly if they're a woman and

803
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: they want to help them find laughter, even if it's

804
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: about death. These are the things that make us human.

805
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: These are the moments where we find our humanity and

806
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 1: we find the joy. I knew early on. People told

807
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: me that, and you told me this, that children feel guilty.

808
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: Children feel guilty was one of the things Carol Geitner

809
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: said when they've lost a parent, they feel guilty being happy.

810
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: So I told my kids right away it was in

811
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,800
Speaker 1: our family rules. Daddy would want you to be happy,

812
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: but it's hard to give that permission to yourself. On

813
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: what would have been Dave's birthday, after he died, I

814
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: went to his grave with um, my siblings and my

815
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: parents and Paula and I just looked at the grave

816
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: and it was such the most obvious, basic lesson. But

817
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: we are all headed there. Absolutely, we all die. And

818
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: as I looked at all the tombstones, Jewish graves tend

819
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: to be pretty crowded, so you can see the dates

820
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: all there. Um, you know, some were young, some of

821
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: the some were older, and those different has almost seemed

822
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: not as significant, But you have that feeling of I

823
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: only have so many days left, and I hope everyone

824
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: here walks out of here and just lives a little

825
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: bit more. I always say everyone's terminal and a lovely

826
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: positive thought. Um, I'm just looking through some other audience questions. Um, oh,

827
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: do you think women are judged more harshly when they

828
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: move on after a loss? I know that online they

829
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: had some few choice words for you when word got

830
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: out that you were seeing someone. And I know that

831
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: you brought a date to a family wedding and somebody

832
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: at the wedding said, I'm so glad you're finally over

833
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: Dave's death. Yeah. I think one of the biggest lessons

834
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: for me is that all of these things exists together.

835
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: You can love someone after they you still love Jay,

836
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: I still love Dave, I always will. You can have

837
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: children who play one minute and cry and next that

838
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: because of the joy, we have the sadness. Because of

839
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: the sadness, we have the joy, and we actually wouldn't

840
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: have one without the other. So, yes, we are all terminal,

841
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: and in knowing that our lives are limited is where

842
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: we can try to live each day to its fullest.

843
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 1: How does this was a question I actually asked you

844
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: both on the phone, and someone healthily from the audience

845
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: asked it, Um, how does the shocking death like Dave's,

846
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: differ from a loss that's anticipated anticipated due to illness.

847
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: For example, Well, we have two living examples of those situations.

848
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: My husband was diagnosed with cancer and died nine months later,

849
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: and you can imagine how excruciating that was, but not shocking.

850
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: Yours was shocking and excruciating. Um. But but how do

851
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: people manage these different situa rations and how how are

852
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: they different? Kitty, I I'd like to hear you come

853
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: in a little bit more on what your experience was

854
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: like I will say, you know, people assume that it's

855
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: going to be easier when you have time to say goodbye,

856
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: and it's very often not the case. You never really

857
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: want to say goodbye to someone you love. And yes,

858
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: it's true that the shock and the immediate despair might

859
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: be less when you had a chance to prepare for it,

860
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: but more often than not, nothing can you really prepare

861
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: you for what it's like to have someone you love

862
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: gone forever. And so I actually think that the two

863
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: end up being much more similar than than people let on.

864
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: But what would your take be? Well, I mean, I

865
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: think they're both horrendous and horrific, and I think that

866
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: I mean for me, I was living with a vice

867
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: around my heart for nine months and taking care of

868
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: my kids. But I think I relate so much to

869
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,479
Speaker 1: so much you know of the things that Cheryl writes

870
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: in this book, but it is excruciating, lee painful to

871
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: see someone you love, uh, you know, waste away and

872
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: get sicker and sicker. And I know Jay said to

873
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: me this is no way to live. And so that

874
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 1: has its own form of heartbreak. I think, Uh, someone

875
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: wrote thank you for being here and for the candid conversation.

876
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: Her question is how has been vulnerable, honest and open

877
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: with friends helped in this process? What end really with everyone, Cheryl,

878
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: not just your friends? What has it changed or taught you?

879
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the most important thing this has done for

880
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: me is one of the ways we have post traumatic

881
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: growth is we find meaning and doing this and forming.

882
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: We formed option be dot org. If people want to

883
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: come check it out. It's a community. There are already

884
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: lots of people in it. We launched last week um

885
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: in groups around grief and loss and hate and violence

886
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: and sexual solve and divorce and trying to find ways

887
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: to do good. And I'm not the only person I did.

888
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: Is you work on cancer for a reason. Right, You've

889
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 1: raised so much money and so much awareness. I remember

890
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: your colonoscopy on TV. No, I'm serious, thank you, but

891
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: that was before whelm you. But no, let's talk about that.

892
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: That was incredibly brave and what you did has got

893
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: a whole lot of people to go. You were trying

894
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: to save lives and you were hurting where you were hurt. Um.

895
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: A friend of my mom's, her son died by suicide

896
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: a few years ago, and she joined one of the

897
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: groups on option b dot org and she found herself

898
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: connected to a man who was thinking of committing suicide,

899
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: and she felt like she really helped him. And she said,

900
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: it's the very first time she feels like anything good

901
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: has come from her son's staff. And so I think

902
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: we try to find meaning. And these option B groups

903
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: that you're establishing really kind of like the lean in

904
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: community in a way. You're you're trying to connect people

905
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: to help each other. Is that the primary goal of

906
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: of what you're going to do beyond the book itself? Yeah,

907
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: The idea is if you got option be dot org,

908
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: there's resources, educational materials. Adam and a whole bunch of

909
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: experts did a great job curating stuff that might help,

910
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: but also helping people join groups where they can connect

911
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: connect with each other around these issues. And it is

912
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: trying to kick lots of elephants out of lots of rooms,

913
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: and we want to help bring people together to support

914
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: each other. I think the overwhelming message of this book

915
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: is we're a lot more resilient than we think we are,

916
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 1: but there are things that we can do for ourselves

917
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: and for other people who are hurting that will really

918
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: allow that resilience to bloom. Is that an accurate sort

919
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: of description of it. I wish we had written it.

920
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: You can you can steal that. I think it's a

921
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: beautiful description. And yeah, I mean I think we we

922
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: walked away just amazed by the capacity of the human

923
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: spirit to persevere, and you know, we wanted to try

924
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: to explain to people how that happens and how we

925
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: can help others do it well. Since earlier I asked

926
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 1: you about Dave. When John and I read the book,

927
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: he mentioned the conclusion to your eulogy to Dave, which

928
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: was just so wonderful, and I think it encapsulates all

929
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: the qualities that you really need to become whole and

930
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: healthy again. Um, and so I asked you if you

931
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 1: would mind reading it sort of as we close, because

932
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: I think it's nice to remember, Dave, and Um, I

933
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: think the message really reflects what you were trying to

934
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: say in this book. So are you okay? I'm gonna try.

935
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: Katie mentioned this right before, so I'm in it. You

936
00:49:53,480 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: got reading glasses, not yet, I will. It's close. You'll notice,

937
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: I'm not going to hold the book here here, um

938
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: says the end of the book. And this is uh

939
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: my eulogy. The end of my eulogy, Dave. I have

940
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: a few promises I make to you today. I promise

941
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 1: I will raise your children as Vikings fans, even though

942
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: I know nothing about football and I'm pretty sure that

943
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: team never wins. I promised to take them to Warriors

944
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: games and pay attention enough to cheer only when the

945
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: Warriors score. I promised to let our son continue to

946
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: play online poker, even though you let him start at

947
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: eight years old, and most fathers would have discussed with

948
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: the mother whether it was appropriate for such a young

949
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: child to play online poker in the first place. And

950
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: to our daughter, when you are eight, but not one

951
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: minute before, you can play online poker too. Dave, I

952
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,839
Speaker 1: promised to raise your children so that they know who

953
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: you were, and everyone here can help me do that

954
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: by sharing your stories with us, and Dave, I will

955
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: raise your children so that they know what you wanted

956
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: for them, and that you love them more than anything

957
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: in the world. Dave, I promised to try to live

958
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: a life that would make you proud, A life of

959
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: doing my best, being the friends you were to our friends,

960
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: following your example, and trying to make the world a

961
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: better place, and always but always cherishing your memory and

962
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 1: loving our family. Today we will put the love of

963
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: my life to rest, but we will bury only his body.

964
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: His spirit, his soul. His amazing ability to give is

965
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: still with all of us. I feel it in the

966
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: stories people are sharing of how he touched their lives.

967
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: I see it in the eyes of our family and friends,

968
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: and above all, it is in the spirit and resilience

969
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: of our children. Things will never be the same, but

970
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: the world is better for the years. Dave Goldberg lift Well,

971
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Cheryl, I don't know how well

972
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: you're doing on the Vikings and warriors part, but I

973
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: think you're doing pretty damn well on all those other things.

974
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: Cheryl and Adam, thank you both so much for coming

975
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 1: to the ninety swo Straight Wine talking to Yah. We'd

976
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: like to say a big thank you to the ninety

977
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: two Street Why for hosting this episode's conversation. Thanks to

978
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer the lovely and talent to Gianna Palmer for

979
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: producing this show and I have to say everybody's lovely,

980
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: did Jared O'Connell, who's hot and studley for mixing and engineering,

981
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: and Nora Richie who's charming and lightsome livesome. Isn't that

982
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: a word for additional production assistance. Thanks also to our

983
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: social media maven Alison Bresnick, and to the Ivory soap

984
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: Girl Emily Beana for her part in producing the show.

985
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: If you all saw Emily, you would say it does

986
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: look like an Ivory girl. And Mark Phillips thank you

987
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: as always for our fantastic and addictive theme music available

988
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: on iTunes. No, actually it's not available on iTunes. I'd

989
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: give it a ninety five for dancing though. Katie Kurrik

990
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: and I are the executive producers of the show. And

991
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: remember you can also email us at comment at Currek

992
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Find us on social media. Katie is

993
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: at Katie Kirk on Twitter and Instagram with like a

994
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: basilion followers. I'm at Goldsmith b with like dozens of

995
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: very excited many relatives who enjoy reading my tweets. Katie's

996
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: also on Snapchat at Katie dot curric. I don't do

997
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: Snapchat because I'm not as young and gruby as Katie is.

998
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: Best of all, you can rate and review us on

999
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, not iTunes anymore, but Apple Podcasts, So don't

1000
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: forget to subscribe and we'll talk to you next time.

1001
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: Lata