Speaker 1: Pushkin. In September nineteen seventy six, a month before her
Speaker 1: thirty fourth birthday, Jean found the thing she was sure
Speaker 1: would save her. It was called life Spring, and Jean's
Speaker 1: parents Colorado Baptists did not approve. Life Spring was part
Speaker 1: of the Human Potential Movement, a for profit self improvement
Speaker 1: group like Landmark or ast, the promise to help its
Speaker 1: followers attain the heights of happiness and success. Jean signed
Speaker 1: up for a five day basic training course. There would
Speaker 1: be lectures and guided meditations, and she hoped to come
Speaker 1: away with clarity. Fred was in a long haul in Hawaii,
Speaker 1: overseeing a bunch of knuckleheads trying to dig a trench
Speaker 1: on the ocean floor. His marriage to Jeanne was at
Speaker 1: an all time. She told her friend Barbara Warner that
Speaker 1: she'd already broken things off with Dick. It was just
Speaker 1: too destabilizing given how volatile things were with Fred. What
Speaker 1: possibly was the camp more than affair? And not possibly
Speaker 1: could camp or all hostituation better pull out of that
Speaker 1: because becoming a little fright and they decided to which
Speaker 1: they did do. Jean filled out her Lifespring forms in
Speaker 1: big loopy handwriting. Her main goal was to decide quote
Speaker 1: whether or not to dissolve my marriage of seven years unquote.
Speaker 1: She was also hoping to disentangle herself emotionally from Dick.
Speaker 1: She noted that the affair had been going on for
Speaker 1: three years, but that she'd stopped the physical part of
Speaker 1: the relationship three months earlier, and one more thing, the
Speaker 1: affair was not the reason she was doubting her marriage.
Speaker 1: Life's encouraged people to tune into exactly what they wanted
Speaker 1: to rest back control of their lives and experiences. Through
Speaker 1: meditation and insight training, they would realize they weren't lost.
Speaker 1: They already had the answers. The answers were inside them.
Speaker 1: The first step is to create a vision. A vision
Speaker 1: brings the future to life and provides a structure for
Speaker 1: laying new track. Declaring your vision is an act of
Speaker 1: freedom which releases you from the past. Jean was hoping
Speaker 1: that Lifespring would be transformational, and it was so much
Speaker 1: so that soon after completing the basic course, she signed
Speaker 1: up to do the advanced The clarity she'd been after
Speaker 1: she'd found it, she was dialed in on the life
Speaker 1: she wanted. How would your relationships be different if you
Speaker 1: lived your life based on your own heartfelt vision. What
Speaker 1: concern Forget what she'd said about moving on from Dick.
Speaker 1: She'd meditated on it, and she knew she wanted him back.
Speaker 1: The number one thing she wanted to work on it.
Speaker 1: The advanced training was quote setting myself up for my
Speaker 1: future with Dick fell Tholen. Unte Number two was quote
Speaker 1: getting out of my marriage as pleasantly as possible. Unquote.
Speaker 1: She continued, in full blown fantasy and self actualization mode.
Speaker 1: Quote I will eventually be married to Dick, have his
Speaker 1: present three children, and will totally be happy. Of course,
Speaker 1: I plan on him attending Life Spring unquote. She flew
Speaker 1: her daughters to the Midwest and dropped them off with
Speaker 1: Fred's parents. She had the answer. It had been inside
Speaker 1: her all along. Now she just needed to execute the plan.
Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills, Episode four,
Speaker 1: The Shallow End, Part two. Life Spring was founded in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four by a man named John Hanley. Life
Speaker 1: Spring was slick and corporate self actualization for yuppies. Participants
Speaker 1: would pay several hundred dollars for a training, which was
Speaker 1: five days of lectures, group work, and meditation. There's a
Speaker 1: whole network of these training programs that were all kind
Speaker 1: of the same approach, which was, take people who are
Speaker 1: really vulnerable, who are looking for some meaning in their
Speaker 1: life or trying to put themselves together, bring them together
Speaker 1: in a big room, tear them apart, bring them down
Speaker 1: to just zero, and then rebuild them. This is Mark Fisher,
Speaker 1: an editor at The Washington Post who wrote about Life
Speaker 1: Spring in the eighties. He actually went through the basic
Speaker 1: training as a reporter. The cell is you've got all
Speaker 1: kinds of problems in your life, you're really not happy.
Speaker 1: We're going to guide you to understanding who you really are,
Speaker 1: what you're about, and how you can succeed in every
Speaker 1: way that you want to live. Spring would consider it
Speaker 1: an honor to assist you in creating and implementing your vision.
Speaker 1: Our commitment is that you experience a profound shift and
Speaker 1: your ability to relate to yourself into others. It says,
Speaker 1: we're going to get rid of all the stuff that
Speaker 1: weighs you down, that makes you unable to be happy,
Speaker 1: unable to succeed, and once we trash that, we're going
Speaker 1: to get to the core of who you really are,
Speaker 1: which is something good, and we're going to build on that.
Speaker 1: Lifespring was different from some of its competitors and fellow
Speaker 1: children of that world of training, in that Lifespring was
Speaker 1: much rougher, especially in its early years. It was an
Speaker 1: often brutal kind of approach. There were confrontational encounters involving
Speaker 1: personal insults and humiliation, but then on the other side
Speaker 1: of that, there were guided meditations that could be extremely powerful.
Speaker 1: You're in a room with a couple hundred people and
Speaker 1: everyone closes their eyes and there's some soft music and
Speaker 1: you're taught to relax, and it almost kind of a
Speaker 1: kind of a hypnosis procedure, and then the leader, the trainer,
Speaker 1: tells you a story, a very emotionally evocative story, usually
Speaker 1: about something in someone's childhood that gets people really heary,
Speaker 1: and you get this sort of group cry going on
Speaker 1: in the room, and you build as the music builds
Speaker 1: to a moment of extraordinary catharsis, and it's kind of
Speaker 1: a weep arama, and it's a hugely powerful moment in
Speaker 1: the room. For some people, it was great. For others,
Speaker 1: it was devastating. One of the trainees told me when
Speaker 1: I was in the program that Lifespring was an enema
Speaker 1: of your emotions, and for some people that's enormously dangerous,
Speaker 1: and that's where some of the casualties come from. That
Speaker 1: was Lifespring's term for people who had tremendous emotional and
Speaker 1: physical damage from the program. They called them casualties. They
Speaker 1: also called them wackos and basket cases, and those were
Speaker 1: their terms for people who suffered really ill effects from
Speaker 1: the Lifespring training. By the early eighties, dozens of trainees
Speaker 1: had sued Lifespring. Six trainees had died. At the end
Speaker 1: of each training, the trainer would have to file what
Speaker 1: Lifespring called incident reports, and those would describe trainees who
Speaker 1: became panicky, who had visions or regress to the womb,
Speaker 1: and so some of those people ended up in psychiatric hospitals,
Speaker 1: and some of them became suicidal. After trainings, people sometimes
Speaker 1: experienced a Lifespring high, a kind of manic state that
Speaker 1: could spiral precipitously into depression. Many trainees lost extreme amounts
Speaker 1: of weight. Weight loss was actually kind of a promise
Speaker 1: of the program, an outward sign of self mastering. Jean
Speaker 1: was always slim five eight one hundred and twenty pounds,
Speaker 1: but in the weeks between her basic training and the
Speaker 1: advanced she was down to one O nine. Then Fred
Speaker 1: says she dropped it under a one hundred hounds and
Speaker 1: she started saying strange things about out of body experiences
Speaker 1: and seeing the future. She would say things to me like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't have to look in the rearview
Speaker 1: mirror of the car anymore, because I know when there's
Speaker 1: a car behind me, And I would say that's fine,
Speaker 1: but for me, Heidi and Kirsten and you, would you
Speaker 1: please look in the room mirror before you James, Wayne's
Speaker 1: just to confirmed, would you already believe? Gene was nagging
Speaker 1: him to try Lifespring to make the divorce go more smoothly,
Speaker 1: and he had noticed some benefits. She'd become more loving
Speaker 1: toward the kids, he wrote, and also quote less materialistic.
Speaker 1: She tried to sell the Jaguar after she wrecked it
Speaker 1: and had it fixed, and then I finally gave up
Speaker 1: and said, Okay, sign me up. I'll go too. And
Speaker 1: so I was scheduled to do that, and I think
Speaker 1: November or December of that year. In early October, right
Speaker 1: after Jean completed her second life Spring course, Fred returned
Speaker 1: from Hawaii to celebrate Jean's birthday. A few days later,
Speaker 1: Jean wrote to her sister Carol. Her tone was giddy.
Speaker 1: Carrol was into Life Spring too and knew the lingo.
Speaker 1: Jean confided that she'd done some extracurricular meditating and quote
Speaker 1: asked if I would see Dick this year. Got a
Speaker 1: yes answer, so I proceed to ask when the answer,
Speaker 1: Jean wrote, came in a vision involving white specks and
Speaker 1: the number twenty two. Then she wrote, out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: she'd started singing sleigh bells ring? Are you listening? Did
Speaker 1: that mean she'd be with Dick by Christmas? As for Fred,
Speaker 1: it seemed like problem solved. It's all out with Fred
Speaker 1: and I, she wrote. He came out and asked where
Speaker 1: we stood, so I laid it all on him. He
Speaker 1: had tears in his eyes, but the whole situation is
Speaker 1: progressing fantastically. He's terrifically understanding. Just knew it anyway, but
Speaker 1: wouldn't admit it to himself. She told her sister they'd
Speaker 1: planned to do the divorce cheaply through UCLA aid. They'd
Speaker 1: still spend holidays together and share childcare. She told another
Speaker 1: friend that Fred had unexpectedly conceded to her on every point.
Speaker 1: They'd sell the house, split the money, and she would
Speaker 1: be free. He even told her she could have custody
Speaker 1: of the kids. Of course, it would mean a shift
Speaker 1: in lifestyle. She told her friend Patty Letell that supporting
Speaker 1: two households in Malibu on their salaries would be out
Speaker 1: of the question. Here's Patty speaking to an investigator. And
Speaker 1: another thing that she told me is that they split
Speaker 1: up the moment they could apt to beach at Halls.
Speaker 1: I think that he, you know, he liked living near
Speaker 1: anything like the house separately. That's what she told me.
Speaker 1: She's to be back getting her roommate. You know, I'd
Speaker 1: have to get to tell to live in an engine
Speaker 1: or truly lived yeah or whatever. In the letter to
Speaker 1: her sister, Jean explained that Fred would be moving out
Speaker 1: soon to a rental property they owned an Oxnard. Coincidentally,
Speaker 1: it was four blocks away from Dick and Linda ville
Speaker 1: Thowen's house. I guess that's the way it's supposed to be,
Speaker 1: she wrote. Around this time, Jean's friend Candy Henman says
Speaker 1: she ran into Jean at the bank. She said she
Speaker 1: finally made her decision and I was so proud of
Speaker 1: her and happy for her that she was going to leave.
Speaker 1: She says that Jean told her her marriage was over
Speaker 1: and that she would soon be free. This whole time,
Speaker 1: Fred says he and Jean were not on the brink
Speaker 1: of divorce. He was not about to move out. They
Speaker 1: were working things out for him to stay. So add
Speaker 1: that to the list of things he says Jean's friends
Speaker 1: got wrong. No choking, no violence, no imminent divorce. Oh,
Speaker 1: and the gun, which Jean reportedly moved over to Verna's house.
Speaker 1: Fred later wrote, quote, my only pistol was still in
Speaker 1: my house on Calpine when Jean died on October fifth,
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Jean turned thirty four ten days later,
Speaker 1: on October fifteenth. She left the house early to fly
Speaker 1: a turnaround to Chicago. All the way from la to
Speaker 1: Chicago and back in one long, twelve hour stretch. So
Speaker 1: she flew to Chicago and then flew back in the
Speaker 1: same day. And so she got back that night. After
Speaker 1: Hyden had his surgery, their older daughter, Heidi was in
Speaker 1: the hospital getting her tonsils removed. Fred had spent the
Speaker 1: day with her there. Heidi had to stay at the
Speaker 1: hospital that night, after Jeane got home from Chicago and
Speaker 1: they put their toddler, Kirsten, to bed, she and Fred
Speaker 1: had the evening to themselves, and Jean asked me to
Speaker 1: go ahead and turn on the hot tub, and she
Speaker 1: had already poured a glass of wine, and I carried
Speaker 1: the other wine out to the to the tub. Fred
Speaker 1: liked the hot tub hot. He cranked it up to
Speaker 1: one oh four, one oh five, he says, and got in.
Speaker 1: He filled his glass and started to drink. Jean was
Speaker 1: still inside talking on the phone with a friend, a
Speaker 1: pretty normal conversation for Jean in those heavy days when
Speaker 1: she believed she had psychic powers. She told her friend
Speaker 1: she'd tried to see what her friend's X was up
Speaker 1: to the next time she meditated. Then, according to her friend,
Speaker 1: Jeane said she had to go. Fred was waiting in
Speaker 1: the hot tub, and she said, you know how he
Speaker 1: gets when he has to wait. Fred says he and
Speaker 1: Jean finished the bottle of wine together in the tub,
Speaker 1: and I was out there when she came out, and
Speaker 1: we sort of killed off that bottle. Jean wanted more wine,
Speaker 1: he says, and asked him to go inside for another
Speaker 1: bottle and change the baby while he was at it.
Speaker 1: He left her in the hot tub and went to
Speaker 1: Kirsten's room. So it was a fairly warm night, and
Speaker 1: you know, like the windows in Kirston's bedroom were open.
Speaker 1: Everything was quiet. We had a German shepherd that was ours,
Speaker 1: called utah Uta, and then we had we had basically
Speaker 1: inherited a docun from the people across the street, the Morgansterns.
Speaker 1: Their little docun mail was named Geronimo, and he was
Speaker 1: infatuated with Uta, who was a female. So they hung
Speaker 1: out together and sometimes he stayed over there and with us.
Speaker 1: So I went in and changed Kirsten, and then I
Speaker 1: got another bottle of wine. And when I walked out,
Speaker 1: there was Uta and Geronimo both with their paws on
Speaker 1: the edge of the pool, and Jeane was floating face
Speaker 1: down in the pool. And I was stunned. I just
Speaker 1: you know, it was just the wrong picture. I couldn't
Speaker 1: imagine that Jeane. He said, I had left the hot
Speaker 1: tub and walked ten or twelve feet over to the
Speaker 1: swimming pool, and now she was faced down in the
Speaker 1: shallow end. He said he found her with her arms
Speaker 1: spread wide and floating on the surface. So I pulled
Speaker 1: her out and yelled for our neighbor. Their bedroom was
Speaker 1: closest to our property line, so he heard me and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, Paul Leon Quick Leon Morgenstern, a
Speaker 1: spleen surgeon at Cedar SINAI was awakened by a knock
Speaker 1: at the door around ten forty five. He put a
Speaker 1: bathrobe on over his pajamas and hurried to the railers,
Speaker 1: where he found Fred giving Jean's CPR by the side
Speaker 1: of the pool. They were both naked. He came over
Speaker 1: and helped me with the CPR, and then the fire
Speaker 1: department game and loaded us up and took us to
Speaker 1: the hospital. When they left for the hospital, Jean's heart
Speaker 1: was beating, but she wasn't breathing. She was comatose. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was. She was breathing with the machine to start with,
Speaker 1: or later. I think she was on the eventI latter,
Speaker 1: but she you know, she didn't come out of the coma.
Speaker 1: She was. She looked like she was sleeping. And you know,
Speaker 1: when I would sit with her an older hand, her
Speaker 1: hands were warm, it would be just like she was sleeping.
Speaker 1: And what was going through your mind during that time
Speaker 1: sitting with her? Oh? Everything in the world, all the
Speaker 1: way from you know what happened? How could this have happened?
Speaker 1: Why didn't the dogs bark? I could only assume that
Speaker 1: she had told them to be quiet, or else they
Speaker 1: would have been barking if she should have been if
Speaker 1: I think, if they would have sensed that she was
Speaker 1: in distress, they would have been barking. I never really
Speaker 1: understood that, and then I didn't get much sleep that
Speaker 1: first night. I vaguely just sat in the waiting room
Speaker 1: and cried, when did you know in your heart she
Speaker 1: was going to die? Well? When the neurologist was a
Speaker 1: young man, very nice. He basically said, took us to
Speaker 1: one side and said, look, you know, this is considered
Speaker 1: brain death. Jean was taken off the ventilator on October
Speaker 1: twenty first. The official cause of death was pneumonia as
Speaker 1: a result of drowning in the family pool. She had
Speaker 1: no other injuries, and, just like with Erna, Fred was
Speaker 1: the only witness unless you count the family dog. The
Speaker 1: LA coroner said Jean's death was an accident, no foul play,
Speaker 1: but there were plenty of people who had their doubts.
Speaker 1: One of the doctors who treated Jean at the hospital
Speaker 1: later said he felt suspicious of Fred. He didn't understand
Speaker 1: why this woman had drowned. Her family and friends felt
Speaker 1: the same way. Jeanne was an excellent swimmer, a good
Speaker 1: athlete in general. It was the small details that didn't
Speaker 1: sit right. For instance, there was talk that the shock
Speaker 1: of going from a very hot tub into a cold
Speaker 1: pool could have somehow contributed to her death, but plunging
Speaker 1: in the pool did not seem like something Jeanne would do.
Speaker 1: The begging convenience. I have never owned Jane in my
Speaker 1: life to jump in a pool. We lived right across
Speaker 1: the pool and we were an apartment. I am from
Speaker 1: a life of me. I'll never figure that one out.
Speaker 1: How she got in the pool. That's Barbara Warner, her
Speaker 1: old roommate, and the dogs. Their presence in the story
Speaker 1: seemed odd, unbelievable to people who knew the family. I
Speaker 1: thought it was an unusual because here had always put
Speaker 1: the dogs tight up. Patty Littell didn't understand what the
Speaker 1: dogs were doing at the pool in the first place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because they were tied up by the back door. And
Speaker 1: I could be wrong when I always got the impression
Speaker 1: that the cred wasn't too crazy about the dogs. And
Speaker 1: after his wife dies, I think one of them got
Speaker 1: killed and the other was given away. Fred had Jean
Speaker 1: cremated and he scattered her ashes at sea, though her
Speaker 1: family was afraid to go on the water. Jean's parents
Speaker 1: held a memorial service on land. Barbara Warner remembered Fred's
Speaker 1: behavior at the service as noticeably strange. After the memorial service,
Speaker 1: I went through the reception and he he had me
Speaker 1: very tightly, and that I have to talk to you.
Speaker 1: I have to talk to you. And I said fine,
Speaker 1: told me as fine, and virtually told me who ate him?
Speaker 1: What halfen? That? At least that was hand rendered what happened? Um,
Speaker 1: As I think back on at the time I was,
Speaker 1: I was, of course, I was so emotionally upset. At
Speaker 1: the time, I thought, oh, okay, wonderful. You know that
Speaker 1: doesn't tell much. Um. I really think he had that
Speaker 1: story so down pat He rattled it off so bad
Speaker 1: with so little emotion that I thought there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with him. But see, in my mind I always thought
Speaker 1: something was wrong with him anyway, So I was preconditioned,
Speaker 1: and I think he had to make sure I was
Speaker 1: buying his story. And I believe that to this day
Speaker 1: that he had to be sure. I wasn't going to
Speaker 1: question thank you, It's going on to Candy Henman, there
Speaker 1: was no question as to his guilt. When I knew
Speaker 1: for sure that he did do it was when I
Speaker 1: went to Jean's funeral and he walked up in his hole.
Speaker 1: Everything around him seemed black, dark, and his face, his look,
Speaker 1: his everything was just darkness, and I knew without a
Speaker 1: doubt that he had done it. He just looked wicked,
Speaker 1: an evil funeralists, dark face in my face and coming
Speaker 1: over and being friendly and chatty, and I was thinking,
Speaker 1: you're a murderer. Why are you even talking to me.
Speaker 1: Jean's sisters, Carol and Linda, were the most unnerved. Carol
Speaker 1: later said she'd reached out to the District Attorney's office
Speaker 1: to ask them to investigate, but the office scared her
Speaker 1: by saying that Fred could sue for defamation of character.
Speaker 1: She gave it up. There was one more person who
Speaker 1: was deeply disturbed by all of this, Verna Johnson, the
Speaker 1: woman who would become Fred's second wife. Michelle Williams went
Speaker 1: to see Verna when they found out Jean was in
Speaker 1: a coma in the hospital, Verna, Jane's very closest friend
Speaker 1: at that time in Vernon eye rolls. Verna's husband, Bill
Speaker 1: had been an electrical contractor. He'd died less than a
Speaker 1: year earlier after falling from the roof of an eighth
Speaker 1: story building in Westwood where he was working. He had
Speaker 1: been depressed and it looked like a suicide, but no
Speaker 1: one really knew for sure. I went down and sat
Speaker 1: with Verna because I knew how close she was to Jane,
Speaker 1: and Vernon had losses. Verna was really spooked. The whole
Speaker 1: thing with Jean reminded her of some of the exercises
Speaker 1: from the Life Spring training. Jean couldn't stop talking about
Speaker 1: guided meditations involving water and death. When I went down
Speaker 1: to talk to Vernon that night that Jeane, you know,
Speaker 1: or the night after whatever Jane had become unconsciously, you know,
Speaker 1: I had drowned, Verna told me that Jeane had gone
Speaker 1: to this Life Spring weakened and that Jane had told
Speaker 1: Verna that she had imagined her own death over a water,
Speaker 1: and that troubled Vernon. Now that Jean had drowned. It
Speaker 1: was an eerie resonance, and one Fred would circle back
Speaker 1: to repeatedly. He noted that Jean had spoken about a
Speaker 1: guided meditation she'd done in her Life Spring workshop that
Speaker 1: was focused on death and dying. She told him she'd
Speaker 1: envisioned a quiet pool of water and a tombstone with
Speaker 1: no date on it. Jean believed she could see the future,
Speaker 1: and it turned out she could with one small caveat.
Speaker 1: She thought the vision meant she would never die. Candy
Speaker 1: Henman didn't stay mad at Fred for long. She noticed
Speaker 1: he did have some good attributes. Tall, good build, dark hair,
Speaker 1: just a handsome man. She thought an adventuresome friend of hers,
Speaker 1: Gail Carmichael, might like him, despite the drama over Jean's death.
Speaker 1: He was. He was very attractive, and he had such charisma,
Speaker 1: and she also was that way. Nothing scared her. I
Speaker 1: had told her what I thought had happened prior, but
Speaker 1: that everybody else thought he was innocent. Everybody in town
Speaker 1: was just so upset over what happened to Jean, and
Speaker 1: nobody had any idea that it was related to Fred,
Speaker 1: and everybody at that time was touting how wonderful he was.
Speaker 1: Fred told an investigator how Candy had played matchmaker with Gail.
Speaker 1: And let's be clear This is Fred's version of their
Speaker 1: wild first date shortly after Jean died. She said, you know,
Speaker 1: when you're ready to ask them to get back in
Speaker 1: the circulation so forth. But me now, she said, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you consider coming over dinner? And I said, okay,
Speaker 1: I said, this is a kids think, But the kids
Speaker 1: she said, oh yeah. So I went over with the kids.
Speaker 1: And so I went over and this blond parking hour
Speaker 1: of the forward lady pulls up her pink Cadillac said,
Speaker 1: bll whatever, the hear was brand new win. She got
Speaker 1: out of kind of lights. Your still warm, So I said,
Speaker 1: you know the light you still watch? She said, you
Speaker 1: had a Carlton A long time. A minute. Things like
Speaker 1: that went on. So we went in and had a
Speaker 1: fairly still initial type of things. She's smoked and I
Speaker 1: don't smoke, and it's one of those things. And she
Speaker 1: seemed to be a little bit of loop and I
Speaker 1: was a little bit apathetic, and well, eating went on,
Speaker 1: and as the liquor we got quicker and more or less.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, we had wine to start with, and
Speaker 1: we had warm fuzzies, which is like a cappuccino type
Speaker 1: of the thing went cool in it and cream and everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were wonderful and and we had a little bit
Speaker 1: of marijuana, a couple of joints, and then the rest
Speaker 1: of it got really great until we were taking each
Speaker 1: other's clothes off and we can thrashing about under the
Speaker 1: coffee table. I'm going on, I don't really believe this
Speaker 1: is going on, and the other people have already left,
Speaker 1: and the kids are obviously already in Bedess just you know,
Speaker 1: in the three hours of the morning. And we tried
Speaker 1: to get in in the hot time, in the hot time,
Speaker 1: it was too hot. What could you get in? I'm
Speaker 1: like a screwed up the promise. So we drove up
Speaker 1: to my place and spent the rest of the morning
Speaker 1: and so forth. I guess it was probably around new
Speaker 1: when she finally went. And I can still remember saying,
Speaker 1: do you think we know each other well enough that
Speaker 1: I could get your phones pretty call you? And we
Speaker 1: talked a lot that morning about our lives and where
Speaker 1: we were coming from and all these stypes things, And
Speaker 1: it was very unusual, I mean, needless to say, to
Speaker 1: have it happened like that. And then Gail fred said
Speaker 1: introduced him to her psychiatrist, doctor Paul remis, and she
Speaker 1: was telling me that she was in therapy with an
Speaker 1: analyst who was really good. Thought that I should do
Speaker 1: that because the guy was a really an interesting person,
Speaker 1: and I he started taking Wednesdays off, he told the investigator.
Speaker 1: So I was taking off Wednesdays every wee and I
Speaker 1: would go down and see Gail and have an omelet
Speaker 1: with her when he would normally have sex, and then
Speaker 1: in the afternoon I would go over and have my
Speaker 1: head worked on by a remiss and I would go
Speaker 1: home in the afternoon. Tough schedule, quite nicely. I actually
Speaker 1: know what the cost schedule. It would be a brush
Speaker 1: and she had a hot tub. According to Candy, the
Speaker 1: relationship ended abruptly, and she said that at one point
Speaker 1: they weren't having conversation. And I think this is after
Speaker 1: she had seen him one or two times and they
Speaker 1: were intimate one morning, and he said, have you ever
Speaker 1: done anything that you couldn't change and you felt bad
Speaker 1: about but you could never change it. She thought he
Speaker 1: was confessing to killing his wife, and she just said
Speaker 1: she just froze with that and did not go on
Speaker 1: anymore with that conversation, and was pretty sure that what
Speaker 1: I thought was right and she didn't see him anymore.
Speaker 1: But Fred says that's not true. There was a different
Speaker 1: reason things didn't work out with Gail. It was just
Speaker 1: too much to juggle. The hard part was trying to
Speaker 1: keep Gail and Verna separate in a physical sense and
Speaker 1: in a mental thing, trying to really decide which of
Speaker 1: these two people I really wanted to pursue my life with.
Speaker 1: Very heavy. Fred was in a dilemma because just months
Speaker 1: after Jean's death, he wasn't only seeing Gail, he was
Speaker 1: dating Verna too. Coming up on the next episode of
Speaker 1: Lost tells Verna's sister has concerns. I said, are you
Speaker 1: sure things you know are okay? And she said yes,
Speaker 1: she said, friend and I have talked at length about it.
Speaker 1: He's gone over the bass me. But I'm just concerned
Speaker 1: to my sister because I thought, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want her to get involved with something good, you know,
Speaker 1: would be terrible from apart later on, that's next in
Speaker 1: episode five, Who Would You Take? Lost Tails is written
Speaker 1: and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's created by me
Speaker 1: and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1: Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear the whole
Speaker 1: season add free and get early access to the final
Speaker 1: two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills Show
Speaker 1: page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm.