1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:26,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In September nineteen seventy six, a month before her 2 00:00:26,396 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 1: thirty fourth birthday, Jean found the thing she was sure 3 00:00:29,996 --> 00:00:33,996 Speaker 1: would save her. It was called life Spring, and Jean's 4 00:00:34,036 --> 00:00:39,276 Speaker 1: parents Colorado Baptists did not approve. Life Spring was part 5 00:00:39,276 --> 00:00:42,716 Speaker 1: of the Human Potential Movement, a for profit self improvement 6 00:00:42,716 --> 00:00:46,196 Speaker 1: group like Landmark or ast, the promise to help its 7 00:00:46,236 --> 00:00:51,236 Speaker 1: followers attain the heights of happiness and success. Jean signed 8 00:00:51,276 --> 00:00:54,116 Speaker 1: up for a five day basic training course. There would 9 00:00:54,156 --> 00:00:57,356 Speaker 1: be lectures and guided meditations, and she hoped to come 10 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: away with clarity. Fred was in a long haul in Hawaii, 11 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:04,956 Speaker 1: overseeing a bunch of knuckleheads trying to dig a trench 12 00:01:04,996 --> 00:01:08,436 Speaker 1: on the ocean floor. His marriage to Jeanne was at 13 00:01:08,436 --> 00:01:11,956 Speaker 1: an all time. She told her friend Barbara Warner that 14 00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:14,836 Speaker 1: she'd already broken things off with Dick. It was just 15 00:01:14,956 --> 00:01:21,996 Speaker 1: too destabilizing given how volatile things were with Fred. What 16 00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:28,596 Speaker 1: possibly was the camp more than affair? And not possibly 17 00:01:29,636 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 1: could camp or all hostituation better pull out of that 18 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:38,876 Speaker 1: because becoming a little fright and they decided to which 19 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:42,836 Speaker 1: they did do. Jean filled out her Lifespring forms in 20 00:01:42,916 --> 00:01:47,236 Speaker 1: big loopy handwriting. Her main goal was to decide quote 21 00:01:47,276 --> 00:01:50,596 Speaker 1: whether or not to dissolve my marriage of seven years unquote. 22 00:01:51,276 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 1: She was also hoping to disentangle herself emotionally from Dick. 23 00:01:55,836 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 1: She noted that the affair had been going on for 24 00:01:57,796 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 1: three years, but that she'd stopped the physical part of 25 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:04,876 Speaker 1: the relationship three months earlier, and one more thing, the 26 00:02:04,956 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: affair was not the reason she was doubting her marriage. 27 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:12,036 Speaker 1: Life's encouraged people to tune into exactly what they wanted 28 00:02:12,276 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 1: to rest back control of their lives and experiences. Through 29 00:02:16,276 --> 00:02:20,916 Speaker 1: meditation and insight training, they would realize they weren't lost. 30 00:02:21,956 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 1: They already had the answers. The answers were inside them. 31 00:02:27,956 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 1: The first step is to create a vision. A vision 32 00:02:31,236 --> 00:02:34,636 Speaker 1: brings the future to life and provides a structure for 33 00:02:34,756 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: laying new track. Declaring your vision is an act of 34 00:02:38,516 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 1: freedom which releases you from the past. Jean was hoping 35 00:02:42,796 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 1: that Lifespring would be transformational, and it was so much 36 00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:50,636 Speaker 1: so that soon after completing the basic course, she signed 37 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 1: up to do the advanced The clarity she'd been after 38 00:02:54,396 --> 00:02:57,476 Speaker 1: she'd found it, she was dialed in on the life 39 00:02:57,476 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 1: she wanted. How would your relationships be different if you 40 00:03:01,556 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 1: lived your life based on your own heartfelt vision. What 41 00:03:05,916 --> 00:03:08,796 Speaker 1: concern Forget what she'd said about moving on from Dick. 42 00:03:09,356 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 1: She'd meditated on it, and she knew she wanted him back. 43 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:16,436 Speaker 1: The number one thing she wanted to work on it. 44 00:03:16,476 --> 00:03:20,236 Speaker 1: The advanced training was quote setting myself up for my 45 00:03:20,316 --> 00:03:25,596 Speaker 1: future with Dick fell Tholen. Unte Number two was quote 46 00:03:26,036 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 1: getting out of my marriage as pleasantly as possible. Unquote. 47 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 1: She continued, in full blown fantasy and self actualization mode. 48 00:03:35,236 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: Quote I will eventually be married to Dick, have his 49 00:03:38,436 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 1: present three children, and will totally be happy. Of course, 50 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:46,636 Speaker 1: I plan on him attending Life Spring unquote. She flew 51 00:03:46,676 --> 00:03:48,956 Speaker 1: her daughters to the Midwest and dropped them off with 52 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:53,596 Speaker 1: Fred's parents. She had the answer. It had been inside 53 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:57,516 Speaker 1: her all along. Now she just needed to execute the plan. 54 00:03:59,396 --> 00:04:30,716 Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear and this is Lost Hills, Episode four, 55 00:04:31,556 --> 00:04:39,716 Speaker 1: The Shallow End, Part two. Life Spring was founded in 56 00:04:39,796 --> 00:04:43,916 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four by a man named John Hanley. Life 57 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:49,316 Speaker 1: Spring was slick and corporate self actualization for yuppies. Participants 58 00:04:49,316 --> 00:04:52,196 Speaker 1: would pay several hundred dollars for a training, which was 59 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:56,316 Speaker 1: five days of lectures, group work, and meditation. There's a 60 00:04:56,356 --> 00:05:03,236 Speaker 1: whole network of these training programs that were all kind 61 00:05:03,276 --> 00:05:07,596 Speaker 1: of the same approach, which was, take people who are 62 00:05:07,676 --> 00:05:10,556 Speaker 1: really vulnerable, who are looking for some meaning in their 63 00:05:10,596 --> 00:05:14,756 Speaker 1: life or trying to put themselves together, bring them together 64 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:18,996 Speaker 1: in a big room, tear them apart, bring them down 65 00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:23,956 Speaker 1: to just zero, and then rebuild them. This is Mark Fisher, 66 00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 1: an editor at The Washington Post who wrote about Life 67 00:05:26,796 --> 00:05:29,916 Speaker 1: Spring in the eighties. He actually went through the basic 68 00:05:29,956 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 1: training as a reporter. The cell is you've got all 69 00:05:34,956 --> 00:05:37,276 Speaker 1: kinds of problems in your life, you're really not happy. 70 00:05:37,636 --> 00:05:41,956 Speaker 1: We're going to guide you to understanding who you really are, 71 00:05:42,436 --> 00:05:45,316 Speaker 1: what you're about, and how you can succeed in every 72 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:48,076 Speaker 1: way that you want to live. Spring would consider it 73 00:05:48,116 --> 00:05:52,116 Speaker 1: an honor to assist you in creating and implementing your vision. 74 00:05:52,756 --> 00:05:56,116 Speaker 1: Our commitment is that you experience a profound shift and 75 00:05:56,196 --> 00:05:59,476 Speaker 1: your ability to relate to yourself into others. It says, 76 00:05:59,716 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 1: we're going to get rid of all the stuff that 77 00:06:02,156 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 1: weighs you down, that makes you unable to be happy, 78 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:09,476 Speaker 1: unable to succeed, and once we trash that, we're going 79 00:06:09,476 --> 00:06:11,436 Speaker 1: to get to the core of who you really are, 80 00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:14,036 Speaker 1: which is something good, and we're going to build on that. 81 00:06:15,076 --> 00:06:19,316 Speaker 1: Lifespring was different from some of its competitors and fellow 82 00:06:19,476 --> 00:06:24,436 Speaker 1: children of that world of training, in that Lifespring was 83 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 1: much rougher, especially in its early years. It was an 84 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:35,316 Speaker 1: often brutal kind of approach. There were confrontational encounters involving 85 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 1: personal insults and humiliation, but then on the other side 86 00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 1: of that, there were guided meditations that could be extremely powerful. 87 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: You're in a room with a couple hundred people and 88 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:50,516 Speaker 1: everyone closes their eyes and there's some soft music and 89 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:54,076 Speaker 1: you're taught to relax, and it almost kind of a 90 00:06:54,196 --> 00:06:59,516 Speaker 1: kind of a hypnosis procedure, and then the leader, the trainer, 91 00:06:59,756 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: tells you a story, a very emotionally evocative story, usually 92 00:07:04,436 --> 00:07:09,516 Speaker 1: about something in someone's childhood that gets people really heary, 93 00:07:09,636 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 1: and you get this sort of group cry going on 94 00:07:11,996 --> 00:07:15,516 Speaker 1: in the room, and you build as the music builds 95 00:07:15,556 --> 00:07:20,796 Speaker 1: to a moment of extraordinary catharsis, and it's kind of 96 00:07:20,796 --> 00:07:24,796 Speaker 1: a weep arama, and it's a hugely powerful moment in 97 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:29,956 Speaker 1: the room. For some people, it was great. For others, 98 00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:34,636 Speaker 1: it was devastating. One of the trainees told me when 99 00:07:34,676 --> 00:07:39,796 Speaker 1: I was in the program that Lifespring was an enema 100 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: of your emotions, and for some people that's enormously dangerous, 101 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:46,916 Speaker 1: and that's where some of the casualties come from. That 102 00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 1: was Lifespring's term for people who had tremendous emotional and 103 00:07:50,516 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 1: physical damage from the program. They called them casualties. They 104 00:07:54,916 --> 00:07:59,116 Speaker 1: also called them wackos and basket cases, and those were 105 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 1: their terms for people who suffered really ill effects from 106 00:08:03,516 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: the Lifespring training. By the early eighties, dozens of trainees 107 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 1: had sued Lifespring. Six trainees had died. At the end 108 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:16,076 Speaker 1: of each training, the trainer would have to file what 109 00:08:16,276 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 1: Lifespring called incident reports, and those would describe trainees who 110 00:08:21,716 --> 00:08:27,756 Speaker 1: became panicky, who had visions or regress to the womb, 111 00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:32,316 Speaker 1: and so some of those people ended up in psychiatric hospitals, 112 00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:39,796 Speaker 1: and some of them became suicidal. After trainings, people sometimes 113 00:08:39,796 --> 00:08:43,636 Speaker 1: experienced a Lifespring high, a kind of manic state that 114 00:08:43,676 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 1: could spiral precipitously into depression. Many trainees lost extreme amounts 115 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: of weight. Weight loss was actually kind of a promise 116 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:57,036 Speaker 1: of the program, an outward sign of self mastering. Jean 117 00:08:57,156 --> 00:09:00,236 Speaker 1: was always slim five eight one hundred and twenty pounds, 118 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:03,036 Speaker 1: but in the weeks between her basic training and the 119 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 1: advanced she was down to one O nine. Then Fred 120 00:09:07,196 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: says she dropped it under a one hundred hounds and 121 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:14,876 Speaker 1: she started saying strange things about out of body experiences 122 00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:18,916 Speaker 1: and seeing the future. She would say things to me like, 123 00:09:19,276 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 1: you know, I don't have to look in the rearview 124 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:23,316 Speaker 1: mirror of the car anymore, because I know when there's 125 00:09:23,356 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 1: a car behind me, And I would say that's fine, 126 00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 1: but for me, Heidi and Kirsten and you, would you 127 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:36,076 Speaker 1: please look in the room mirror before you James, Wayne's 128 00:09:36,116 --> 00:09:40,676 Speaker 1: just to confirmed, would you already believe? Gene was nagging 129 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:43,996 Speaker 1: him to try Lifespring to make the divorce go more smoothly, 130 00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:48,476 Speaker 1: and he had noticed some benefits. She'd become more loving 131 00:09:48,476 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 1: toward the kids, he wrote, and also quote less materialistic. 132 00:09:53,036 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 1: She tried to sell the Jaguar after she wrecked it 133 00:09:55,356 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 1: and had it fixed, and then I finally gave up 134 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:04,196 Speaker 1: and said, Okay, sign me up. I'll go too. And 135 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 1: so I was scheduled to do that, and I think 136 00:10:07,316 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 1: November or December of that year. In early October, right 137 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:15,516 Speaker 1: after Jean completed her second life Spring course, Fred returned 138 00:10:15,556 --> 00:10:20,076 Speaker 1: from Hawaii to celebrate Jean's birthday. A few days later, 139 00:10:20,276 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 1: Jean wrote to her sister Carol. Her tone was giddy. 140 00:10:24,396 --> 00:10:26,836 Speaker 1: Carrol was into Life Spring too and knew the lingo. 141 00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:32,356 Speaker 1: Jean confided that she'd done some extracurricular meditating and quote 142 00:10:32,796 --> 00:10:35,596 Speaker 1: asked if I would see Dick this year. Got a 143 00:10:35,756 --> 00:10:41,356 Speaker 1: yes answer, so I proceed to ask when the answer, 144 00:10:41,476 --> 00:10:45,196 Speaker 1: Jean wrote, came in a vision involving white specks and 145 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:49,156 Speaker 1: the number twenty two. Then she wrote, out of nowhere, 146 00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: she'd started singing sleigh bells ring? Are you listening? Did 147 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 1: that mean she'd be with Dick by Christmas? As for Fred, 148 00:10:57,796 --> 00:11:02,076 Speaker 1: it seemed like problem solved. It's all out with Fred 149 00:11:02,076 --> 00:11:04,636 Speaker 1: and I, she wrote. He came out and asked where 150 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:07,716 Speaker 1: we stood, so I laid it all on him. He 151 00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:10,236 Speaker 1: had tears in his eyes, but the whole situation is 152 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:14,956 Speaker 1: progressing fantastically. He's terrifically understanding. Just knew it anyway, but 153 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:18,716 Speaker 1: wouldn't admit it to himself. She told her sister they'd 154 00:11:18,716 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: planned to do the divorce cheaply through UCLA aid. They'd 155 00:11:22,316 --> 00:11:26,436 Speaker 1: still spend holidays together and share childcare. She told another 156 00:11:26,476 --> 00:11:30,156 Speaker 1: friend that Fred had unexpectedly conceded to her on every point. 157 00:11:30,676 --> 00:11:33,596 Speaker 1: They'd sell the house, split the money, and she would 158 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:37,196 Speaker 1: be free. He even told her she could have custody 159 00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:41,356 Speaker 1: of the kids. Of course, it would mean a shift 160 00:11:41,396 --> 00:11:45,436 Speaker 1: in lifestyle. She told her friend Patty Letell that supporting 161 00:11:45,476 --> 00:11:48,836 Speaker 1: two households in Malibu on their salaries would be out 162 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:52,916 Speaker 1: of the question. Here's Patty speaking to an investigator. And 163 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: another thing that she told me is that they split 164 00:11:57,356 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: up the moment they could apt to beach at Halls. 165 00:12:00,956 --> 00:12:03,356 Speaker 1: I think that he, you know, he liked living near 166 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: anything like the house separately. That's what she told me. 167 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:10,756 Speaker 1: She's to be back getting her roommate. You know, I'd 168 00:12:10,796 --> 00:12:12,116 Speaker 1: have to get to tell to live in an engine 169 00:12:12,276 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 1: or truly lived yeah or whatever. In the letter to 170 00:12:16,636 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 1: her sister, Jean explained that Fred would be moving out 171 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 1: soon to a rental property they owned an Oxnard. Coincidentally, 172 00:12:24,676 --> 00:12:26,916 Speaker 1: it was four blocks away from Dick and Linda ville 173 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:29,796 Speaker 1: Thowen's house. I guess that's the way it's supposed to be, 174 00:12:29,996 --> 00:12:35,316 Speaker 1: she wrote. Around this time, Jean's friend Candy Henman says 175 00:12:35,316 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 1: she ran into Jean at the bank. She said she 176 00:12:39,196 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 1: finally made her decision and I was so proud of 177 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: her and happy for her that she was going to leave. 178 00:12:45,596 --> 00:12:48,836 Speaker 1: She says that Jean told her her marriage was over 179 00:12:49,596 --> 00:13:09,116 Speaker 1: and that she would soon be free. This whole time, 180 00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 1: Fred says he and Jean were not on the brink 181 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 1: of divorce. He was not about to move out. They 182 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:18,836 Speaker 1: were working things out for him to stay. So add 183 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:21,676 Speaker 1: that to the list of things he says Jean's friends 184 00:13:21,796 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 1: got wrong. No choking, no violence, no imminent divorce. Oh, 185 00:13:28,196 --> 00:13:31,596 Speaker 1: and the gun, which Jean reportedly moved over to Verna's house. 186 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:35,476 Speaker 1: Fred later wrote, quote, my only pistol was still in 187 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:42,636 Speaker 1: my house on Calpine when Jean died on October fifth, 188 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:47,276 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Jean turned thirty four ten days later, 189 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:50,356 Speaker 1: on October fifteenth. She left the house early to fly 190 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 1: a turnaround to Chicago. All the way from la to 191 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 1: Chicago and back in one long, twelve hour stretch. So 192 00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 1: she flew to Chicago and then flew back in the 193 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:07,956 Speaker 1: same day. And so she got back that night. After 194 00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:11,716 Speaker 1: Hyden had his surgery, their older daughter, Heidi was in 195 00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 1: the hospital getting her tonsils removed. Fred had spent the 196 00:14:14,796 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: day with her there. Heidi had to stay at the 197 00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:21,076 Speaker 1: hospital that night, after Jeane got home from Chicago and 198 00:14:21,116 --> 00:14:24,236 Speaker 1: they put their toddler, Kirsten, to bed, she and Fred 199 00:14:24,316 --> 00:14:29,316 Speaker 1: had the evening to themselves, and Jean asked me to 200 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:33,716 Speaker 1: go ahead and turn on the hot tub, and she 201 00:14:33,756 --> 00:14:36,596 Speaker 1: had already poured a glass of wine, and I carried 202 00:14:36,676 --> 00:14:40,956 Speaker 1: the other wine out to the to the tub. Fred 203 00:14:41,036 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 1: liked the hot tub hot. He cranked it up to 204 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 1: one oh four, one oh five, he says, and got in. 205 00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:50,636 Speaker 1: He filled his glass and started to drink. Jean was 206 00:14:50,676 --> 00:14:53,316 Speaker 1: still inside talking on the phone with a friend, a 207 00:14:53,396 --> 00:14:56,956 Speaker 1: pretty normal conversation for Jean in those heavy days when 208 00:14:56,956 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 1: she believed she had psychic powers. She told her friend 209 00:15:00,236 --> 00:15:02,836 Speaker 1: she'd tried to see what her friend's X was up 210 00:15:02,876 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 1: to the next time she meditated. Then, according to her friend, 211 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 1: Jeane said she had to go. Fred was waiting in 212 00:15:10,196 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 1: the hot tub, and she said, you know how he 213 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 1: gets when he has to wait. Fred says he and 214 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 1: Jean finished the bottle of wine together in the tub, 215 00:15:19,516 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: and I was out there when she came out, and 216 00:15:25,036 --> 00:15:29,636 Speaker 1: we sort of killed off that bottle. Jean wanted more wine, 217 00:15:29,676 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 1: he says, and asked him to go inside for another 218 00:15:31,916 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 1: bottle and change the baby while he was at it. 219 00:15:34,956 --> 00:15:36,676 Speaker 1: He left her in the hot tub and went to 220 00:15:36,756 --> 00:15:41,356 Speaker 1: Kirsten's room. So it was a fairly warm night, and 221 00:15:41,716 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: you know, like the windows in Kirston's bedroom were open. 222 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:53,596 Speaker 1: Everything was quiet. We had a German shepherd that was ours, 223 00:15:53,636 --> 00:15:58,476 Speaker 1: called utah Uta, and then we had we had basically 224 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:03,596 Speaker 1: inherited a docun from the people across the street, the Morgansterns. 225 00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:08,356 Speaker 1: Their little docun mail was named Geronimo, and he was 226 00:16:08,436 --> 00:16:14,596 Speaker 1: infatuated with Uta, who was a female. So they hung 227 00:16:14,596 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 1: out together and sometimes he stayed over there and with us. 228 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 1: So I went in and changed Kirsten, and then I 229 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:26,716 Speaker 1: got another bottle of wine. And when I walked out, 230 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:31,396 Speaker 1: there was Uta and Geronimo both with their paws on 231 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:35,036 Speaker 1: the edge of the pool, and Jeane was floating face 232 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:38,316 Speaker 1: down in the pool. And I was stunned. I just 233 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:41,036 Speaker 1: you know, it was just the wrong picture. I couldn't 234 00:16:41,036 --> 00:16:45,956 Speaker 1: imagine that Jeane. He said, I had left the hot 235 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:48,356 Speaker 1: tub and walked ten or twelve feet over to the 236 00:16:48,356 --> 00:16:51,316 Speaker 1: swimming pool, and now she was faced down in the 237 00:16:51,316 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 1: shallow end. He said he found her with her arms 238 00:16:54,596 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 1: spread wide and floating on the surface. So I pulled 239 00:16:58,956 --> 00:17:03,236 Speaker 1: her out and yelled for our neighbor. Their bedroom was 240 00:17:03,436 --> 00:17:06,676 Speaker 1: closest to our property line, so he heard me and 241 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:13,676 Speaker 1: I said, you know, Paul Leon Quick Leon Morgenstern, a 242 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:16,836 Speaker 1: spleen surgeon at Cedar SINAI was awakened by a knock 243 00:17:16,876 --> 00:17:20,356 Speaker 1: at the door around ten forty five. He put a 244 00:17:20,396 --> 00:17:23,316 Speaker 1: bathrobe on over his pajamas and hurried to the railers, 245 00:17:23,516 --> 00:17:26,276 Speaker 1: where he found Fred giving Jean's CPR by the side 246 00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:31,636 Speaker 1: of the pool. They were both naked. He came over 247 00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: and helped me with the CPR, and then the fire 248 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:40,876 Speaker 1: department game and loaded us up and took us to 249 00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:44,516 Speaker 1: the hospital. When they left for the hospital, Jean's heart 250 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:50,276 Speaker 1: was beating, but she wasn't breathing. She was comatose. Yeah, 251 00:17:50,476 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: she was. She was breathing with the machine to start with, 252 00:17:57,396 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 1: or later. I think she was on the eventI latter, 253 00:18:03,276 --> 00:18:07,036 Speaker 1: but she you know, she didn't come out of the coma. 254 00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:11,956 Speaker 1: She was. She looked like she was sleeping. And you know, 255 00:18:11,956 --> 00:18:15,196 Speaker 1: when I would sit with her an older hand, her 256 00:18:15,236 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 1: hands were warm, it would be just like she was sleeping. 257 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: And what was going through your mind during that time 258 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 1: sitting with her? Oh? Everything in the world, all the 259 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: way from you know what happened? How could this have happened? 260 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:38,676 Speaker 1: Why didn't the dogs bark? I could only assume that 261 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 1: she had told them to be quiet, or else they 262 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:44,076 Speaker 1: would have been barking if she should have been if 263 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 1: I think, if they would have sensed that she was 264 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:49,356 Speaker 1: in distress, they would have been barking. I never really 265 00:18:49,436 --> 00:18:55,956 Speaker 1: understood that, and then I didn't get much sleep that 266 00:18:56,076 --> 00:18:58,436 Speaker 1: first night. I vaguely just sat in the waiting room 267 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:02,676 Speaker 1: and cried, when did you know in your heart she 268 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 1: was going to die? Well? When the neurologist was a 269 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 1: young man, very nice. He basically said, took us to 270 00:19:11,876 --> 00:19:15,316 Speaker 1: one side and said, look, you know, this is considered 271 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:22,916 Speaker 1: brain death. Jean was taken off the ventilator on October 272 00:19:22,956 --> 00:19:26,756 Speaker 1: twenty first. The official cause of death was pneumonia as 273 00:19:26,796 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 1: a result of drowning in the family pool. She had 274 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 1: no other injuries, and, just like with Erna, Fred was 275 00:19:35,876 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 1: the only witness unless you count the family dog. The 276 00:20:01,556 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 1: LA coroner said Jean's death was an accident, no foul play, 277 00:20:06,396 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 1: but there were plenty of people who had their doubts. 278 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 1: One of the doctors who treated Jean at the hospital 279 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:15,956 Speaker 1: later said he felt suspicious of Fred. He didn't understand 280 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:19,476 Speaker 1: why this woman had drowned. Her family and friends felt 281 00:20:19,476 --> 00:20:22,916 Speaker 1: the same way. Jeanne was an excellent swimmer, a good 282 00:20:22,956 --> 00:20:26,676 Speaker 1: athlete in general. It was the small details that didn't 283 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 1: sit right. For instance, there was talk that the shock 284 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 1: of going from a very hot tub into a cold 285 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:36,516 Speaker 1: pool could have somehow contributed to her death, but plunging 286 00:20:36,516 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 1: in the pool did not seem like something Jeanne would do. 287 00:20:39,716 --> 00:20:42,756 Speaker 1: The begging convenience. I have never owned Jane in my 288 00:20:42,836 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: life to jump in a pool. We lived right across 289 00:20:46,836 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 1: the pool and we were an apartment. I am from 290 00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:52,396 Speaker 1: a life of me. I'll never figure that one out. 291 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 1: How she got in the pool. That's Barbara Warner, her 292 00:20:56,996 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 1: old roommate, and the dogs. Their presence in the story 293 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:08,036 Speaker 1: seemed odd, unbelievable to people who knew the family. I 294 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:10,916 Speaker 1: thought it was an unusual because here had always put 295 00:21:10,996 --> 00:21:14,556 Speaker 1: the dogs tight up. Patty Littell didn't understand what the 296 00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:17,436 Speaker 1: dogs were doing at the pool in the first place. Yeah, 297 00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:19,356 Speaker 1: because they were tied up by the back door. And 298 00:21:20,236 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 1: I could be wrong when I always got the impression 299 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:23,836 Speaker 1: that the cred wasn't too crazy about the dogs. And 300 00:21:23,876 --> 00:21:26,356 Speaker 1: after his wife dies, I think one of them got 301 00:21:26,396 --> 00:21:30,036 Speaker 1: killed and the other was given away. Fred had Jean 302 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 1: cremated and he scattered her ashes at sea, though her 303 00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:36,796 Speaker 1: family was afraid to go on the water. Jean's parents 304 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: held a memorial service on land. Barbara Warner remembered Fred's 305 00:21:41,156 --> 00:21:46,956 Speaker 1: behavior at the service as noticeably strange. After the memorial service, 306 00:21:47,116 --> 00:21:51,436 Speaker 1: I went through the reception and he he had me 307 00:21:51,516 --> 00:21:52,956 Speaker 1: very tightly, and that I have to talk to you. 308 00:21:52,996 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 1: I have to talk to you. And I said fine, 309 00:21:56,396 --> 00:22:00,076 Speaker 1: told me as fine, and virtually told me who ate him? 310 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:07,916 Speaker 1: What halfen? That? At least that was hand rendered what happened? Um, 311 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: As I think back on at the time I was, 312 00:22:10,316 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 1: I was, of course, I was so emotionally upset. At 313 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:16,156 Speaker 1: the time, I thought, oh, okay, wonderful. You know that 314 00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:21,196 Speaker 1: doesn't tell much. Um. I really think he had that 315 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:23,796 Speaker 1: story so down pat He rattled it off so bad 316 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 1: with so little emotion that I thought there's something wrong 317 00:22:29,756 --> 00:22:32,396 Speaker 1: with him. But see, in my mind I always thought 318 00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:34,716 Speaker 1: something was wrong with him anyway, So I was preconditioned, 319 00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:38,316 Speaker 1: and I think he had to make sure I was 320 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:40,956 Speaker 1: buying his story. And I believe that to this day 321 00:22:42,236 --> 00:22:45,276 Speaker 1: that he had to be sure. I wasn't going to 322 00:22:45,356 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 1: question thank you, It's going on to Candy Henman, there 323 00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:53,716 Speaker 1: was no question as to his guilt. When I knew 324 00:22:53,756 --> 00:22:55,996 Speaker 1: for sure that he did do it was when I 325 00:22:55,996 --> 00:23:00,596 Speaker 1: went to Jean's funeral and he walked up in his hole. 326 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: Everything around him seemed black, dark, and his face, his look, 327 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 1: his everything was just darkness, and I knew without a 328 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:16,716 Speaker 1: doubt that he had done it. He just looked wicked, 329 00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:22,356 Speaker 1: an evil funeralists, dark face in my face and coming 330 00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:24,636 Speaker 1: over and being friendly and chatty, and I was thinking, 331 00:23:25,036 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 1: you're a murderer. Why are you even talking to me. 332 00:23:28,636 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 1: Jean's sisters, Carol and Linda, were the most unnerved. Carol 333 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:35,796 Speaker 1: later said she'd reached out to the District Attorney's office 334 00:23:35,796 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: to ask them to investigate, but the office scared her 335 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: by saying that Fred could sue for defamation of character. 336 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 1: She gave it up. There was one more person who 337 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:53,116 Speaker 1: was deeply disturbed by all of this, Verna Johnson, the 338 00:23:53,196 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 1: woman who would become Fred's second wife. Michelle Williams went 339 00:23:57,436 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 1: to see Verna when they found out Jean was in 340 00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:04,916 Speaker 1: a coma in the hospital, Verna, Jane's very closest friend 341 00:24:04,956 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 1: at that time in Vernon eye rolls. Verna's husband, Bill 342 00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:13,196 Speaker 1: had been an electrical contractor. He'd died less than a 343 00:24:13,276 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 1: year earlier after falling from the roof of an eighth 344 00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:19,196 Speaker 1: story building in Westwood where he was working. He had 345 00:24:19,236 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 1: been depressed and it looked like a suicide, but no 346 00:24:22,436 --> 00:24:25,316 Speaker 1: one really knew for sure. I went down and sat 347 00:24:25,356 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: with Verna because I knew how close she was to Jane, 348 00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:34,396 Speaker 1: and Vernon had losses. Verna was really spooked. The whole 349 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:37,156 Speaker 1: thing with Jean reminded her of some of the exercises 350 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:39,996 Speaker 1: from the Life Spring training. Jean couldn't stop talking about 351 00:24:40,716 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: guided meditations involving water and death. When I went down 352 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:48,716 Speaker 1: to talk to Vernon that night that Jeane, you know, 353 00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:52,716 Speaker 1: or the night after whatever Jane had become unconsciously, you know, 354 00:24:52,756 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: I had drowned, Verna told me that Jeane had gone 355 00:24:56,396 --> 00:25:02,796 Speaker 1: to this Life Spring weakened and that Jane had told 356 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:07,116 Speaker 1: Verna that she had imagined her own death over a water, 357 00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: and that troubled Vernon. Now that Jean had drowned. It 358 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 1: was an eerie resonance, and one Fred would circle back 359 00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:20,916 Speaker 1: to repeatedly. He noted that Jean had spoken about a 360 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 1: guided meditation she'd done in her Life Spring workshop that 361 00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:27,556 Speaker 1: was focused on death and dying. She told him she'd 362 00:25:27,636 --> 00:25:30,956 Speaker 1: envisioned a quiet pool of water and a tombstone with 363 00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 1: no date on it. Jean believed she could see the future, 364 00:25:35,196 --> 00:25:38,796 Speaker 1: and it turned out she could with one small caveat. 365 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:58,116 Speaker 1: She thought the vision meant she would never die. Candy 366 00:25:58,196 --> 00:26:01,516 Speaker 1: Henman didn't stay mad at Fred for long. She noticed 367 00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 1: he did have some good attributes. Tall, good build, dark hair, 368 00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:14,836 Speaker 1: just a handsome man. She thought an adventuresome friend of hers, 369 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:19,196 Speaker 1: Gail Carmichael, might like him, despite the drama over Jean's death. 370 00:26:20,316 --> 00:26:24,316 Speaker 1: He was. He was very attractive, and he had such charisma, 371 00:26:26,156 --> 00:26:31,276 Speaker 1: and she also was that way. Nothing scared her. I 372 00:26:31,316 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 1: had told her what I thought had happened prior, but 373 00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:37,956 Speaker 1: that everybody else thought he was innocent. Everybody in town 374 00:26:38,076 --> 00:26:40,596 Speaker 1: was just so upset over what happened to Jean, and 375 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 1: nobody had any idea that it was related to Fred, 376 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:47,916 Speaker 1: and everybody at that time was touting how wonderful he was. 377 00:26:50,516 --> 00:26:53,876 Speaker 1: Fred told an investigator how Candy had played matchmaker with Gail. 378 00:26:54,676 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 1: And let's be clear This is Fred's version of their 379 00:26:57,996 --> 00:27:02,316 Speaker 1: wild first date shortly after Jean died. She said, you know, 380 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:04,196 Speaker 1: when you're ready to ask them to get back in 381 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: the circulation so forth. But me now, she said, well, 382 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 1: why don't you consider coming over dinner? And I said, okay, 383 00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 1: I said, this is a kids think, But the kids 384 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 1: she said, oh yeah. So I went over with the kids. 385 00:27:17,196 --> 00:27:21,276 Speaker 1: And so I went over and this blond parking hour 386 00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 1: of the forward lady pulls up her pink Cadillac said, 387 00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 1: bll whatever, the hear was brand new win. She got 388 00:27:28,756 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 1: out of kind of lights. Your still warm, So I said, 389 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:32,596 Speaker 1: you know the light you still watch? She said, you 390 00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:36,116 Speaker 1: had a Carlton A long time. A minute. Things like 391 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:40,076 Speaker 1: that went on. So we went in and had a 392 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 1: fairly still initial type of things. She's smoked and I 393 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 1: don't smoke, and it's one of those things. And she 394 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 1: seemed to be a little bit of loop and I 395 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: was a little bit apathetic, and well, eating went on, 396 00:27:56,076 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 1: and as the liquor we got quicker and more or less. 397 00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:01,356 Speaker 1: Uh you know, we had wine to start with, and 398 00:28:01,516 --> 00:28:06,156 Speaker 1: we had warm fuzzies, which is like a cappuccino type 399 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:10,956 Speaker 1: of the thing went cool in it and cream and everything. Yeah, 400 00:28:11,116 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 1: they were wonderful and and we had a little bit 401 00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:21,956 Speaker 1: of marijuana, a couple of joints, and then the rest 402 00:28:21,996 --> 00:28:24,996 Speaker 1: of it got really great until we were taking each 403 00:28:24,996 --> 00:28:27,516 Speaker 1: other's clothes off and we can thrashing about under the 404 00:28:27,516 --> 00:28:29,716 Speaker 1: coffee table. I'm going on, I don't really believe this 405 00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 1: is going on, and the other people have already left, 406 00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: and the kids are obviously already in Bedess just you know, 407 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:38,276 Speaker 1: in the three hours of the morning. And we tried 408 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 1: to get in in the hot time, in the hot time, 409 00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:42,516 Speaker 1: it was too hot. What could you get in? I'm 410 00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:47,796 Speaker 1: like a screwed up the promise. So we drove up 411 00:28:47,836 --> 00:28:51,716 Speaker 1: to my place and spent the rest of the morning 412 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:54,716 Speaker 1: and so forth. I guess it was probably around new 413 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:57,556 Speaker 1: when she finally went. And I can still remember saying, 414 00:28:58,196 --> 00:28:59,836 Speaker 1: do you think we know each other well enough that 415 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 1: I could get your phones pretty call you? And we 416 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:11,476 Speaker 1: talked a lot that morning about our lives and where 417 00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 1: we were coming from and all these stypes things, And 418 00:29:16,796 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 1: it was very unusual, I mean, needless to say, to 419 00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:25,196 Speaker 1: have it happened like that. And then Gail fred said 420 00:29:25,636 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 1: introduced him to her psychiatrist, doctor Paul remis, and she 421 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: was telling me that she was in therapy with an 422 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:36,756 Speaker 1: analyst who was really good. Thought that I should do 423 00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 1: that because the guy was a really an interesting person, 424 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:45,236 Speaker 1: and I he started taking Wednesdays off, he told the investigator. 425 00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 1: So I was taking off Wednesdays every wee and I 426 00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:54,596 Speaker 1: would go down and see Gail and have an omelet 427 00:29:54,636 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: with her when he would normally have sex, and then 428 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:04,396 Speaker 1: in the afternoon I would go over and have my 429 00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:06,396 Speaker 1: head worked on by a remiss and I would go 430 00:30:06,436 --> 00:30:10,556 Speaker 1: home in the afternoon. Tough schedule, quite nicely. I actually 431 00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:13,636 Speaker 1: know what the cost schedule. It would be a brush 432 00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:24,716 Speaker 1: and she had a hot tub. According to Candy, the 433 00:30:24,796 --> 00:30:28,996 Speaker 1: relationship ended abruptly, and she said that at one point 434 00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:33,276 Speaker 1: they weren't having conversation. And I think this is after 435 00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 1: she had seen him one or two times and they 436 00:30:36,076 --> 00:30:38,556 Speaker 1: were intimate one morning, and he said, have you ever 437 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 1: done anything that you couldn't change and you felt bad 438 00:30:41,516 --> 00:30:44,516 Speaker 1: about but you could never change it. She thought he 439 00:30:44,596 --> 00:30:48,716 Speaker 1: was confessing to killing his wife, and she just said 440 00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:51,316 Speaker 1: she just froze with that and did not go on 441 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:55,636 Speaker 1: anymore with that conversation, and was pretty sure that what 442 00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 1: I thought was right and she didn't see him anymore. 443 00:31:04,316 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 1: But Fred says that's not true. There was a different 444 00:31:07,156 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: reason things didn't work out with Gail. It was just 445 00:31:10,316 --> 00:31:14,476 Speaker 1: too much to juggle. The hard part was trying to 446 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:21,396 Speaker 1: keep Gail and Verna separate in a physical sense and 447 00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:24,276 Speaker 1: in a mental thing, trying to really decide which of 448 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:26,716 Speaker 1: these two people I really wanted to pursue my life with. 449 00:31:28,916 --> 00:31:32,836 Speaker 1: Very heavy. Fred was in a dilemma because just months 450 00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:38,516 Speaker 1: after Jean's death, he wasn't only seeing Gail, he was 451 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 1: dating Verna too. Coming up on the next episode of 452 00:31:54,916 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 1: Lost tells Verna's sister has concerns. I said, are you 453 00:32:00,956 --> 00:32:04,236 Speaker 1: sure things you know are okay? And she said yes, 454 00:32:04,356 --> 00:32:06,556 Speaker 1: she said, friend and I have talked at length about it. 455 00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:10,916 Speaker 1: He's gone over the bass me. But I'm just concerned 456 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:13,916 Speaker 1: to my sister because I thought, you know, I don't 457 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:17,036 Speaker 1: want her to get involved with something good, you know, 458 00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:21,156 Speaker 1: would be terrible from apart later on, that's next in 459 00:32:21,236 --> 00:32:27,396 Speaker 1: episode five, Who Would You Take? Lost Tails is written 460 00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:30,516 Speaker 1: and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. It's created by me 461 00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 1: and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. 462 00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:40,636 Speaker 1: Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can hear the whole 463 00:32:40,676 --> 00:32:43,236 Speaker 1: season add free and get early access to the final 464 00:32:43,276 --> 00:32:46,356 Speaker 1: two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills Show 465 00:32:46,396 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 1: page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm.