1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:15,506 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:23,576 --> 00:00:28,336 Speaker 2: In September 1976, a month before her 34th birthday, Jean 3 00:00:28,436 --> 00:00:31,656 Speaker 2: found the thing she was sure would save her. It 4 00:00:31,696 --> 00:00:37,196 Speaker 2: was called Lifespring, and Jean's parents, Colorado Baptists, did not approve. 5 00:00:38,496 --> 00:00:41,936 Speaker 2: Lifespring was part of the Human Potential Movement, a for-profit 6 00:00:41,996 --> 00:00:46,006 Speaker 2: self-improvement group like Landmark or Est that promised to help 7 00:00:46,066 --> 00:00:50,886 Speaker 2: its followers attain the heights of happiness and success. Jean 8 00:00:50,946 --> 00:00:54,106 Speaker 2: signed up for a five-day basic training course. There would 9 00:00:54,126 --> 00:00:57,346 Speaker 2: be lectures and guided meditations, and she hoped to come 10 00:00:57,406 --> 00:01:01,526 Speaker 2: away with clarity. Fred was on a long haul in Hawaii, 11 00:01:02,046 --> 00:01:04,986 Speaker 2: overseeing a bunch of knuckleheads trying to dig a trench 12 00:01:05,046 --> 00:01:08,466 Speaker 2: on the ocean floor. His marriage to Jean was at 13 00:01:08,516 --> 00:01:11,996 Speaker 2: an all-time low. She told her friend Barbara Warner that 14 00:01:12,016 --> 00:01:14,866 Speaker 2: she'd already broken things off with Dick. It was just 15 00:01:14,986 --> 00:01:18,946 Speaker 2: too destabilizing, given how volatile things were with Fred. 16 00:01:18,976 --> 00:01:24,296 Speaker 1: Jean filled out her LifeSpring forms in big, loopy handwriting. 17 00:01:44,986 --> 00:01:47,866 Speaker 2: Her main goal was to decide, quote, whether or not 18 00:01:47,986 --> 00:01:51,586 Speaker 2: to dissolve my marriage of seven years, unquote. She was 19 00:01:51,646 --> 00:01:56,306 Speaker 2: also hoping to disentangle herself emotionally from Dick. She noted 20 00:01:56,336 --> 00:01:58,376 Speaker 2: that the affair had been going on for three years, 21 00:01:59,016 --> 00:02:01,756 Speaker 2: but that she'd stopped the physical part of the relationship 22 00:02:01,896 --> 00:02:05,496 Speaker 2: three months earlier. And one more thing, the affair was 23 00:02:05,696 --> 00:02:09,716 Speaker 2: not the reason she was doubting her marriage. Lifespring encouraged 24 00:02:09,756 --> 00:02:12,766 Speaker 2: people to tune into exactly what they wanted. to wrest 25 00:02:12,846 --> 00:02:17,296 Speaker 2: back control of their lives and experiences. Through meditation and 26 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 2: insight training, they would realize they weren't lost. They already 27 00:02:22,576 --> 00:02:26,796 Speaker 2: had the answers. The answers were inside them. 28 00:02:28,016 --> 00:02:30,176 Speaker 3: The first step is to create a vision. 29 00:02:30,676 --> 00:02:33,906 Speaker 4: A vision brings the future to life and provides a 30 00:02:33,986 --> 00:02:35,826 Speaker 4: structure for laying new track. 31 00:02:36,366 --> 00:02:40,386 Speaker 2: Declaring your vision is an act of freedom which releases. 32 00:02:39,926 --> 00:02:40,826 Speaker 5: You from the past. 33 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 2: Jean was hoping that LifeSpring would be transformational. And it was. 34 00:02:46,696 --> 00:02:49,776 Speaker 2: So much so that, soon after completing the basic course, 35 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:53,246 Speaker 2: she signed up to do the advanced. The clarity she'd 36 00:02:53,266 --> 00:02:57,126 Speaker 2: been after? She'd found it. She was dialed in on 37 00:02:57,166 --> 00:02:57,926 Speaker 2: the life she wanted. 38 00:02:58,806 --> 00:03:02,166 Speaker 3: How would your relationships be different if you lived your 39 00:03:02,246 --> 00:03:05,046 Speaker 3: life based on your own heartfelt vision? 40 00:03:05,846 --> 00:03:09,626 Speaker 2: Forget what she'd said about moving on from Dick. She'd 41 00:03:09,666 --> 00:03:13,026 Speaker 2: meditated on it. and she knew she wanted him back. 42 00:03:14,186 --> 00:03:16,446 Speaker 2: The number one thing she wanted to work on at 43 00:03:16,486 --> 00:03:20,286 Speaker 2: the advanced training was, quote, setting myself up for my 44 00:03:20,326 --> 00:03:26,336 Speaker 2: future with Dick Valthoen, unquote. Number two was, quote, getting 45 00:03:26,376 --> 00:03:30,756 Speaker 2: out of my marriage as pleasantly as possible, unquote. She 46 00:03:30,796 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 2: continued in full-blown fantasy and self-actualization mode, quote, I will 47 00:03:36,456 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 2: eventually be married to Dick, have his present three children, 48 00:03:39,856 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 2: and will totally be happy. Of course, I plan on 49 00:03:43,016 --> 00:03:47,406 Speaker 2: him attending Lifespring, unquote. She flew her daughters to the 50 00:03:47,446 --> 00:03:51,286 Speaker 2: Midwest and dropped them off with Fred's parents. She had 51 00:03:51,326 --> 00:03:55,666 Speaker 2: the answer. It had been inside her all along. Now 52 00:03:55,746 --> 00:04:00,576 Speaker 2: she just needed to execute the plan. I'm Dana Goodyear, 53 00:04:01,256 --> 00:04:03,256 Speaker 2: and this is Lost Hills. 54 00:04:05,306 --> 00:04:13,236 Speaker 5: Episode 4, The Shallow End, Part 2. 55 00:04:38,486 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 2: LifeSpring was founded in 1974 by a man named John Hanley. 56 00:04:43,736 --> 00:04:49,496 Speaker 2: LifeSpring was slick and corporate, self-actualization for yuppies. Participants would 57 00:04:49,536 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 2: pay several hundred dollars for a training, which was five 58 00:04:52,636 --> 00:04:55,146 Speaker 2: days of lectures, group work, and meditation. 59 00:04:56,006 --> 00:05:02,466 Speaker 6: There's a whole network of these training programs that were 60 00:05:02,586 --> 00:05:07,126 Speaker 6: all kind of the same approach, which was... Take people 61 00:05:07,226 --> 00:05:10,246 Speaker 6: who are really vulnerable, who are looking for some meaning 62 00:05:10,286 --> 00:05:12,706 Speaker 6: in their life, who are trying to put themselves together, 63 00:05:13,986 --> 00:05:17,416 Speaker 6: bring them together in a big room, tear them apart, 64 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:21,976 Speaker 6: bring them down to just zero, and then rebuild them. 65 00:05:22,956 --> 00:05:25,756 Speaker 2: This is Mark Fisher, an editor at The Washington Post, 66 00:05:25,976 --> 00:05:29,206 Speaker 2: who wrote about Lifespring in the 80s. He actually went 67 00:05:29,266 --> 00:05:31,406 Speaker 2: through the basic training as a reporter. 68 00:05:32,226 --> 00:05:35,736 Speaker 6: The cell is... You've got all kinds of problems in 69 00:05:35,776 --> 00:05:38,796 Speaker 6: your life. You're really not happy. We're going to guide 70 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:43,296 Speaker 6: you to understanding who you really are, what you're about, 71 00:05:43,416 --> 00:05:45,816 Speaker 6: and how you can succeed in every way that you 72 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:46,296 Speaker 6: want to. 73 00:05:46,856 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 7: Lifespring would consider it an honor to assist you in 74 00:05:49,986 --> 00:05:54,126 Speaker 7: creating and implementing your vision. Our commitment is that you 75 00:05:54,186 --> 00:05:57,446 Speaker 7: experience a profound shift in your ability to relate to 76 00:05:57,486 --> 00:05:58,346 Speaker 7: yourself and to others. 77 00:05:59,106 --> 00:06:01,106 Speaker 6: It says we're going to get rid of all the 78 00:06:01,286 --> 00:06:05,006 Speaker 6: stuff that weighs you down and that makes you unable 79 00:06:05,036 --> 00:06:09,096 Speaker 6: to be happy, unable to succeed. And once we trash that, 80 00:06:09,176 --> 00:06:10,856 Speaker 6: we're going to get to the core of who you 81 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:13,296 Speaker 6: really are, which is something good, and we're going to 82 00:06:13,376 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 6: build on that. Lifespring was different from some of its 83 00:06:18,096 --> 00:06:23,046 Speaker 6: competitors and fellow children of that world of training in 84 00:06:23,086 --> 00:06:27,986 Speaker 6: that Lifespring was much rougher, especially in its early years. 85 00:06:28,386 --> 00:06:32,286 Speaker 6: It was an often brutal kind of approach. 86 00:06:31,906 --> 00:06:37,526 Speaker 2: Where There were confrontational encounters involving personal insults and humiliation. 87 00:06:38,346 --> 00:06:40,466 Speaker 2: But then, on the other side of that, there were 88 00:06:40,506 --> 00:06:43,386 Speaker 2: guided meditations that could be extremely powerful. 89 00:06:44,346 --> 00:06:45,206 Speaker 5: You're in a room. 90 00:06:45,026 --> 00:06:48,286 Speaker 6: With a couple hundred people, and everyone closes their eyes, 91 00:06:48,646 --> 00:06:52,296 Speaker 6: and there's some soft music, and you're taught to relax, 92 00:06:52,386 --> 00:06:58,096 Speaker 6: and it's almost kind of a hypnosis procedure. And Then 93 00:06:58,296 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 6: the leader, the trainer, tells you a story, a very 94 00:07:01,936 --> 00:07:07,116 Speaker 6: emotionally evocative story, usually about something in someone's childhood that 95 00:07:07,736 --> 00:07:10,516 Speaker 6: gets people really teary, and you get this sort of 96 00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:14,166 Speaker 6: group cry going on in the room. And you build, 97 00:07:14,496 --> 00:07:19,206 Speaker 6: as the music builds, to a moment of extraordinary catharsis. 98 00:07:19,806 --> 00:07:23,346 Speaker 6: And it's kind of a weep-a-rama, and it's a hugely 99 00:07:23,426 --> 00:07:25,306 Speaker 6: powerful moment in the room. 100 00:07:26,306 --> 00:07:31,866 Speaker 2: For some people... It was great. For others, it was devastating. 101 00:07:32,846 --> 00:07:35,506 Speaker 6: One of the trainees told me when I was in 102 00:07:35,546 --> 00:07:40,866 Speaker 6: the program that Lifespring was an enema of your emotions. 103 00:07:41,526 --> 00:07:44,746 Speaker 6: And for some people, that's enormously dangerous, and that's where 104 00:07:44,786 --> 00:07:48,096 Speaker 6: some of the casualties come from. That was Lifespring's term 105 00:07:48,136 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 6: for people who had tremendous emotional and physical damage from 106 00:07:52,036 --> 00:07:55,636 Speaker 6: the program. They called them casualties. They also called them 107 00:07:56,016 --> 00:07:59,696 Speaker 6: wackos and basket cases. And those were their terms for 108 00:07:59,716 --> 00:08:04,666 Speaker 6: people who suffered really ill effects from the Lifespring training. 109 00:08:05,586 --> 00:08:08,966 Speaker 2: By the early 80s, dozens of trainees had sued Lifespring. 110 00:08:09,786 --> 00:08:11,206 Speaker 2: Six trainees had died. 111 00:08:12,286 --> 00:08:14,566 Speaker 6: At the end of each training, the trainer would have 112 00:08:14,616 --> 00:08:20,026 Speaker 6: to file... what Lifespring called incident reports. And those would 113 00:08:20,046 --> 00:08:27,066 Speaker 6: describe trainees who became panicky, who had visions or regressed 114 00:08:27,106 --> 00:08:30,276 Speaker 6: to the womb. And so some of those people ended 115 00:08:30,356 --> 00:08:36,676 Speaker 6: up in psychiatric hospitals and some of them became suicidal. 116 00:08:36,696 --> 00:08:42,566 Speaker 2: After trainings, people sometimes experienced a Lifespring high. a kind 117 00:08:42,606 --> 00:08:48,246 Speaker 2: of manic state that could spiral precipitously into depression. Many 118 00:08:48,326 --> 00:08:51,986 Speaker 2: trainees lost extreme amounts of weight. Weight loss was actually 119 00:08:52,026 --> 00:08:54,806 Speaker 2: kind of a promise of the program, an outward sign 120 00:08:54,826 --> 00:09:01,116 Speaker 2: of self-mastery. Jean was always slim, 5'8, 120 pounds. But 121 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:03,636 Speaker 2: in the weeks between her basic training and the advanced, 122 00:09:04,096 --> 00:09:08,256 Speaker 2: she was down to 109. Then, Fred says, she dropped 123 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 2: to under 100 pounds. And she started saying strange things. 124 00:09:12,596 --> 00:09:16,016 Speaker 2: about out-of-body experiences and seeing the future. 125 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:19,736 Speaker 5: She would say things to me like, you know, I 126 00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:21,536 Speaker 5: don't have to look in the rearview mirror of the 127 00:09:21,576 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 5: car anymore because I know when there's a car behind me. 128 00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:30,546 Speaker 5: And I would say, that's fine, but for me, Heidi, 129 00:09:30,826 --> 00:09:34,026 Speaker 5: and Kirsten, and you, would you please look in the 130 00:09:34,066 --> 00:09:37,606 Speaker 5: rearview mirror before you change lanes just to confirm what 131 00:09:37,646 --> 00:09:38,606 Speaker 5: you already believe? 132 00:09:39,846 --> 00:09:42,706 Speaker 2: Jean was nagging him to try Lifespring. to make the 133 00:09:42,746 --> 00:09:46,726 Speaker 2: divorce go more smoothly. And he had noticed some benefits. 134 00:09:47,426 --> 00:09:51,076 Speaker 2: She'd become more loving toward the kids, he wrote, and also, quote, 135 00:09:51,506 --> 00:09:54,856 Speaker 2: less materialistic. She tried to sell the Jaguar after she 136 00:09:54,896 --> 00:09:57,196 Speaker 2: wrecked it and had it fixed, unquote. 137 00:09:58,256 --> 00:10:01,866 Speaker 5: And then I finally gave up and said, okay, sign 138 00:10:01,896 --> 00:10:05,346 Speaker 5: me up, I'll go too. And so I was scheduled 139 00:10:05,386 --> 00:10:08,566 Speaker 5: to do that in, I think, November or December of 140 00:10:08,646 --> 00:10:09,066 Speaker 5: that year. 141 00:10:10,776 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 2: In early October, right after Jean completed her second Lifespring course, 142 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:19,476 Speaker 2: Fred returned from Hawaii to celebrate Jean's birthday. A few 143 00:10:19,516 --> 00:10:22,916 Speaker 2: days later, Jean wrote to her sister Carol. Her tone 144 00:10:22,976 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 2: was giddy. Carol was into Lifespring too and knew the lingo. 145 00:10:27,576 --> 00:10:32,296 Speaker 2: Jean confided that she'd done some extracurricular meditating and, quote, 146 00:10:32,956 --> 00:10:35,616 Speaker 2: asked if I would see Dick this year. Got a 147 00:10:35,716 --> 00:10:41,366 Speaker 2: yes answer, so I proceed to ask, when? The answer, 148 00:10:41,506 --> 00:10:45,346 Speaker 2: Jean wrote, came in a vision involving white specs and 149 00:10:45,366 --> 00:10:49,726 Speaker 2: the number 22. Then, she wrote, out of nowhere, she'd 150 00:10:49,766 --> 00:10:53,936 Speaker 2: started singing, sleigh bells ring, are you listening? Did that 151 00:10:53,996 --> 00:10:57,786 Speaker 2: mean she'd be with Dick by Christmas? As for Fred, 152 00:10:57,826 --> 00:11:02,066 Speaker 2: it seemed like problem solved. It's all out with Fred 153 00:11:02,106 --> 00:11:04,586 Speaker 2: and I, she wrote. He came out and asked where 154 00:11:04,626 --> 00:11:07,816 Speaker 2: we stood, so I laid it all on him. He 155 00:11:07,856 --> 00:11:10,216 Speaker 2: had tears in his eyes, but the whole situation is 156 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:15,096 Speaker 2: progressing fantastically. He's terrifically understanding, just knew it anyway, but 157 00:11:15,156 --> 00:11:18,696 Speaker 2: wouldn't admit it to himself. She told her sister they'd 158 00:11:18,736 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 2: planned to do the divorce cheaply through UCLA aid. They'd 159 00:11:22,376 --> 00:11:26,446 Speaker 2: still spend holidays together and share childcare. She told another 160 00:11:26,506 --> 00:11:30,156 Speaker 2: friend that Fred had unexpectedly conceded to her on every point. 161 00:11:30,756 --> 00:11:33,596 Speaker 2: They'd sell the house, split the money, and she would 162 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 2: be free. He even told her she could have custody 163 00:11:37,176 --> 00:11:41,366 Speaker 2: of the kids. Of course, it would mean a shift 164 00:11:41,446 --> 00:11:45,446 Speaker 2: in lifestyle. She told her friend Patty Lytel that supporting 165 00:11:45,506 --> 00:11:48,806 Speaker 2: two households in Malibu on their salaries would be out 166 00:11:48,846 --> 00:11:52,086 Speaker 2: of the question. Here's Patty speaking to an investigator. 167 00:11:52,936 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 4: And another thing that she told me is that if 168 00:11:55,476 --> 00:11:59,016 Speaker 4: they split up, there's no way they could afford to 169 00:11:59,036 --> 00:12:03,236 Speaker 4: get the house. And I think that he liked living 170 00:12:03,256 --> 00:12:06,596 Speaker 4: there and he liked the house. Separately, neither one of 171 00:12:06,616 --> 00:12:07,736 Speaker 4: them could afford it. 172 00:12:07,756 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 8: That's what she told me. 173 00:12:08,816 --> 00:12:10,376 Speaker 4: She said something about getting a roommate. 174 00:12:10,416 --> 00:12:11,976 Speaker 2: You know, I'd have to get somebody to live in 175 00:12:11,996 --> 00:12:12,396 Speaker 2: there with me. 176 00:12:13,096 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 4: Share the room. 177 00:12:14,116 --> 00:12:18,336 Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever. In the letter to her sister, Jean explained 178 00:12:18,396 --> 00:12:21,176 Speaker 2: that Fred would be moving out soon. to a rental 179 00:12:21,216 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 2: property they owned in Oxnard. Coincidentally, it was four blocks 180 00:12:25,656 --> 00:12:28,936 Speaker 2: away from Dick and Linda Velthoen's house. Guess that's the 181 00:12:28,976 --> 00:12:32,796 Speaker 2: way it's supposed to be, she wrote. Around this time, 182 00:12:33,066 --> 00:12:36,386 Speaker 2: Jean's friend Candy Hinman says she ran into Jean at 183 00:12:36,406 --> 00:12:36,806 Speaker 2: the bank. 184 00:12:38,566 --> 00:12:40,746 Speaker 3: She said that she'd finally made her decision, and I 185 00:12:40,786 --> 00:12:43,306 Speaker 3: was so proud of her and happy for her that 186 00:12:43,346 --> 00:12:44,346 Speaker 3: she was going to leave. 187 00:12:45,646 --> 00:12:48,856 Speaker 2: She says that Jean told her her marriage was over. 188 00:12:49,706 --> 00:13:09,076 Speaker 2: and that she would soon be free. This whole time, 189 00:13:09,176 --> 00:13:11,816 Speaker 2: Fred says, he and Jean were not on the brink 190 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:15,056 Speaker 2: of divorce. He was not about to move out. They 191 00:13:15,076 --> 00:13:18,796 Speaker 2: were working things out for him to stay. So add 192 00:13:18,866 --> 00:13:21,666 Speaker 2: that to the list of things he says Gene's friends 193 00:13:21,826 --> 00:13:28,206 Speaker 2: got wrong. No choking, no violence, no imminent divorce. Oh, 194 00:13:28,286 --> 00:13:31,546 Speaker 2: and the gun, which Gene reportedly moved over to Verna's house? 195 00:13:32,426 --> 00:13:35,486 Speaker 2: Fred later wrote, quote, my only pistol was still in 196 00:13:35,546 --> 00:13:42,826 Speaker 2: my house on Calpine when Gene died, unquote. On October 5th, 1976, 197 00:13:42,826 --> 00:13:48,946 Speaker 2: Gene turned 34. Ten days later, on October 15th, she 198 00:13:48,986 --> 00:13:51,726 Speaker 2: left the house early to fly a turnaround to Chicago, 199 00:13:52,426 --> 00:13:54,966 Speaker 2: all the way from L.A. to Chicago and back in 200 00:13:55,106 --> 00:13:56,586 Speaker 2: one long 12-hour stretch. 201 00:13:57,586 --> 00:14:00,826 Speaker 5: So she flew to Chicago and then flew back in 202 00:14:00,846 --> 00:14:05,806 Speaker 5: the same day. And so she got back that night 203 00:14:07,806 --> 00:14:09,186 Speaker 5: after Heidi had her surgery. 204 00:14:10,306 --> 00:14:12,666 Speaker 2: Their older daughter Heidi was in the hospital getting her 205 00:14:12,686 --> 00:14:15,406 Speaker 2: tonsils removed. Fred had spent the day with her there. 206 00:14:16,616 --> 00:14:19,556 Speaker 2: Heidi had to stay at the hospital that night. After 207 00:14:19,596 --> 00:14:22,636 Speaker 2: Jean got home from Chicago and they put their toddler, Kirsten, 208 00:14:22,706 --> 00:14:25,766 Speaker 2: to bed, she and Fred had the evening to themselves. 209 00:14:27,246 --> 00:14:30,746 Speaker 5: And Jean asked me to go ahead and turn on 210 00:14:30,766 --> 00:14:35,066 Speaker 5: the hot tub, and she had already poured a glass 211 00:14:35,146 --> 00:14:38,206 Speaker 5: of wine, and I carried the other wine out to 212 00:14:39,226 --> 00:14:39,786 Speaker 5: the tub. 213 00:14:40,726 --> 00:14:43,676 Speaker 2: Fred liked the hot tub hot. He cranked it up 214 00:14:43,736 --> 00:14:48,056 Speaker 2: to 104, 105, he says, and got in. He filled 215 00:14:48,096 --> 00:14:51,356 Speaker 2: his glass and started to drink. Jean was still inside, 216 00:14:51,456 --> 00:14:54,056 Speaker 2: talking on the phone with a friend, a pretty normal 217 00:14:54,096 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 2: conversation for Jean in those heady days when she believed 218 00:14:57,536 --> 00:15:00,676 Speaker 2: she had psychic powers. She told her friend she'd try 219 00:15:00,696 --> 00:15:03,476 Speaker 2: to see what her friend's ex was up to the 220 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:07,996 Speaker 2: next time she meditated. Then, according to her friend, Jean 221 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:10,276 Speaker 2: said she had to go. Fred was waiting in the 222 00:15:10,296 --> 00:15:13,186 Speaker 2: hot tub, and she said... You know how he gets 223 00:15:13,226 --> 00:15:16,506 Speaker 2: when he has to wait. Fred says he and Gene 224 00:15:16,606 --> 00:15:18,806 Speaker 2: finished the bottle of wine together in the tub. 225 00:15:19,646 --> 00:15:23,976 Speaker 5: And I was out there when she came out. And 226 00:15:25,056 --> 00:15:27,596 Speaker 5: we sort of killed off that bottle. 227 00:15:28,496 --> 00:15:30,896 Speaker 2: Gene wanted more wine, he says, and asked him to 228 00:15:30,936 --> 00:15:33,456 Speaker 2: go inside for another bottle and change the baby while 229 00:15:33,496 --> 00:15:35,826 Speaker 2: he was at it. He left her in the hot 230 00:15:35,846 --> 00:15:37,406 Speaker 2: tub and went to Kirsten's room. 231 00:15:37,426 --> 00:15:40,526 Speaker 4: So.... 232 00:15:39,696 --> 00:15:45,296 Speaker 5: It was a fairly warm night, and the windows in 233 00:15:45,336 --> 00:15:47,056 Speaker 5: Kirsten's bedroom were open. 234 00:15:48,016 --> 00:15:49,586 Speaker 2: Everything was quiet. 235 00:15:50,346 --> 00:15:55,386 Speaker 5: We had a German shepherd that was ours called Uta, U-T-A. 236 00:15:56,186 --> 00:16:00,666 Speaker 5: And then we had basically inherited a dachshund from the 237 00:16:00,806 --> 00:16:06,056 Speaker 5: people across the street, the Morgensterns. Their little dachshund male 238 00:16:06,156 --> 00:16:11,796 Speaker 5: was named Geronimo, and he was infatuated with Uta, who 239 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:15,856 Speaker 5: was a female. So they hung out together, and sometimes 240 00:16:15,916 --> 00:16:20,796 Speaker 5: he stayed over there with us. So I went in 241 00:16:20,896 --> 00:16:24,346 Speaker 5: and changed Kirsten, and then I got another bottle of wine, 242 00:16:24,726 --> 00:16:30,226 Speaker 5: and when I walked out, there was Uta and Geronimo 243 00:16:30,286 --> 00:16:32,306 Speaker 5: both with their paws on the edge of the pool, 244 00:16:33,406 --> 00:16:37,116 Speaker 5: and Gene was floating face down in the pool. And 245 00:16:37,166 --> 00:16:39,706 Speaker 5: I was stunned. I just... You know, it was just 246 00:16:39,766 --> 00:16:41,626 Speaker 5: the wrong picture. I couldn't imagine that. 247 00:16:44,366 --> 00:16:46,826 Speaker 2: Gene, he said, had left the hot tub and walked 248 00:16:46,826 --> 00:16:49,866 Speaker 2: 10 or 12 feet over to the swimming pool. And 249 00:16:49,926 --> 00:16:52,966 Speaker 2: now she was face down in the shallow end. He 250 00:16:52,986 --> 00:16:55,486 Speaker 2: said he found her with her arms spread wide and 251 00:16:55,546 --> 00:16:56,526 Speaker 2: floating on the surface. 252 00:16:58,046 --> 00:17:02,146 Speaker 5: So I pulled her out and yelled for our neighbor. 253 00:17:02,406 --> 00:17:06,106 Speaker 5: Their bedroom was closest to our property line, so... He 254 00:17:06,146 --> 00:17:09,906 Speaker 5: heard me, and I said, you know, call Leon, quick. 255 00:17:12,266 --> 00:17:16,506 Speaker 2: Leon Morgenstern, a spleen surgeon at Cedars-Sinai, was awakened by 256 00:17:16,546 --> 00:17:20,326 Speaker 2: a knock at the door around 10.45. He put a 257 00:17:20,366 --> 00:17:23,286 Speaker 2: bathrobe on over his pajamas and hurried to the railers, 258 00:17:23,596 --> 00:17:26,256 Speaker 2: where he found Fred giving Gene CPR by the side 259 00:17:26,296 --> 00:17:29,396 Speaker 2: of the pool. They were both naked. 260 00:17:29,416 --> 00:17:34,906 Speaker 5: He came over. and help me with CPR. And then 261 00:17:34,946 --> 00:17:40,566 Speaker 5: the fire department came and loaded us up and took 262 00:17:40,646 --> 00:17:41,586 Speaker 5: us to the hospital. 263 00:17:42,406 --> 00:17:45,106 Speaker 2: When they left for the hospital, Jean's heart was beating, 264 00:17:45,566 --> 00:17:48,346 Speaker 2: but she wasn't breathing. She was comatose. 265 00:17:50,046 --> 00:17:56,296 Speaker 5: Yeah, she was breathing with a machine to start with. 266 00:17:57,056 --> 00:18:03,526 Speaker 5: Or later, I think she was on a ventilator. but 267 00:18:03,926 --> 00:18:10,266 Speaker 5: she didn't come out of the coma. She looked like 268 00:18:10,306 --> 00:18:13,006 Speaker 5: she was sleeping, and when I would sit with her 269 00:18:13,046 --> 00:18:17,686 Speaker 5: and hold her hand, her hands were warm. It would 270 00:18:17,726 --> 00:18:18,986 Speaker 5: be just like she was sleeping. 271 00:18:20,506 --> 00:18:23,046 Speaker 2: And what was going through your mind during that time, 272 00:18:23,526 --> 00:18:24,176 Speaker 2: sitting with her? 273 00:18:24,196 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 5: Oh, everything in the world, all the way from You know, 274 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:34,666 Speaker 5: what happened? How could this have happened? Why didn't the 275 00:18:34,706 --> 00:18:39,306 Speaker 5: dogs bark? I could only assume that she had told 276 00:18:39,346 --> 00:18:42,386 Speaker 5: them to be quiet or else they would have been 277 00:18:42,446 --> 00:18:44,946 Speaker 5: barking if she had been... I think if they would 278 00:18:44,986 --> 00:18:47,466 Speaker 5: have sensed that she was in distress, they would have 279 00:18:47,506 --> 00:18:54,696 Speaker 5: been barking. I never really understood that. And then I 280 00:18:54,736 --> 00:18:57,356 Speaker 5: didn't get much sleep that first night. I basically just 281 00:18:57,396 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 5: sat in the waiting room and cried. 282 00:19:01,096 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 2: When did you know in your heart she was going 283 00:19:03,016 --> 00:19:03,416 Speaker 2: to die? 284 00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 5: Well, when the neurologist was a young man, very nice, 285 00:19:09,996 --> 00:19:12,986 Speaker 5: he basically said, took us to one side and said, look, 286 00:19:13,146 --> 00:19:15,986 Speaker 5: you know, this is considered brain death. 287 00:19:20,786 --> 00:19:24,406 Speaker 2: Jean was taken off the ventilator on October 21st. The 288 00:19:24,466 --> 00:19:27,526 Speaker 2: official cause of death was pneumonia as a result of 289 00:19:27,566 --> 00:19:31,146 Speaker 2: drowning in the family pool. She had no other injuries. 290 00:19:33,296 --> 00:19:36,756 Speaker 2: And just like with Verna, Fred was the only witness. 291 00:19:38,016 --> 00:19:39,236 Speaker 2: Unless you count the family dog. 292 00:20:01,306 --> 00:20:01,746 Speaker 6: The L.A. 293 00:20:01,806 --> 00:20:05,646 Speaker 2: Coroner said Jean's death was an accident, no foul play. 294 00:20:06,486 --> 00:20:08,406 Speaker 2: But there were plenty of people who had their doubts. 295 00:20:09,366 --> 00:20:11,606 Speaker 2: One of the doctors who treated Jean at the hospital 296 00:20:11,666 --> 00:20:15,966 Speaker 2: later said he felt suspicious of Fred. He didn't understand 297 00:20:16,026 --> 00:20:19,386 Speaker 2: why this woman had drowned. Her family and friends felt 298 00:20:19,426 --> 00:20:22,926 Speaker 2: the same way. Jean was an excellent swimmer, a good 299 00:20:22,986 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 2: athlete in general. It was the small details that didn't 300 00:20:26,696 --> 00:20:30,116 Speaker 2: sit right. For instance, there was talk that the shock 301 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:32,516 Speaker 2: of going from a very hot tub into a cold 302 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:36,506 Speaker 2: pool could have somehow contributed to her death. But plunging 303 00:20:36,526 --> 00:20:38,966 Speaker 2: in the pool did not seem like something Jean would do. 304 00:20:38,986 --> 00:20:42,566 Speaker 1: That's Barbara Warner, her old roommate. 305 00:21:00,956 --> 00:21:04,296 Speaker 2: And the dogs, their presence in the story seemed odd, 306 00:21:04,996 --> 00:21:07,136 Speaker 2: unbelievable to people who knew the family. 307 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:10,976 Speaker 8: I thought it was unusual because Fred always kept the 308 00:21:11,016 --> 00:21:11,736 Speaker 8: dogs tied up. 309 00:21:12,816 --> 00:21:15,466 Speaker 2: Patty Lytel didn't understand what the dogs were doing at 310 00:21:15,486 --> 00:21:16,646 Speaker 2: the pool in the first place. 311 00:21:17,286 --> 00:21:19,246 Speaker 7: Yeah, because they were tied up by the back door. 312 00:21:19,286 --> 00:21:21,566 Speaker 2: And I could be wrong, but I always got the 313 00:21:21,586 --> 00:21:23,686 Speaker 2: impression that Fred wasn't too crazy about the dogs. 314 00:21:23,766 --> 00:21:26,106 Speaker 8: And after his wife died, I think one of them 315 00:21:26,176 --> 00:21:27,836 Speaker 8: got killed and the other was given away. 316 00:21:27,856 --> 00:21:32,816 Speaker 2: Fred had Jean cremated. and he scattered her ashes at sea, 317 00:21:33,296 --> 00:21:35,176 Speaker 2: though her family was afraid to go on the water. 318 00:21:36,056 --> 00:21:40,326 Speaker 2: Jean's parents held a memorial service on land. Barbara Warner 319 00:21:40,366 --> 00:21:43,986 Speaker 2: remembered Fred's behavior at the service as noticeably strange. 320 00:21:45,726 --> 00:21:48,446 Speaker 1: After the memorial service, I went to the reception line, 321 00:21:49,426 --> 00:21:52,506 Speaker 1: and he held me very tightly and said, I have 322 00:21:52,526 --> 00:21:54,666 Speaker 1: to talk to you, I have to talk to you. 323 00:21:54,686 --> 00:21:55,346 Speaker 5: And I said, fine. 324 00:21:55,766 --> 00:22:00,526 Speaker 1: He pulled me aside, and virtually told me verbatim what 325 00:22:00,586 --> 00:22:05,166 Speaker 1: happened that evening. At least that was his rendition of 326 00:22:05,206 --> 00:22:09,726 Speaker 1: what happened. As I think back on it, at the time, 327 00:22:09,746 --> 00:22:12,546 Speaker 1: I was, of course, I was so emotionally upset at 328 00:22:12,566 --> 00:22:16,276 Speaker 1: the time. I thought, oh, okay, wonderful. You know, that 329 00:22:16,296 --> 00:22:21,596 Speaker 1: doesn't help much. I really think he had that story 330 00:22:21,616 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: so down pat. He rattled it off so fast with 331 00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:30,026 Speaker 1: so little emotion that I thought, something's wrong with him. 332 00:22:30,506 --> 00:22:32,776 Speaker 1: But see, in my mind, I always thought something was 333 00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 1: wrong with him anyway. So I was preconditioned. And I 334 00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:39,136 Speaker 1: think he had to make sure I was buying his story. 335 00:22:39,536 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 1: And I believe that to this day. But he had 336 00:22:42,776 --> 00:22:46,806 Speaker 1: to be sure I wasn't going to question anything that. 337 00:22:46,706 --> 00:22:47,166 Speaker 5: Was going on. 338 00:22:48,646 --> 00:22:52,466 Speaker 2: To Candy Hinman, there was no question as to his guilt. 339 00:22:53,286 --> 00:22:55,586 Speaker 3: When I knew for sure that he did do it 340 00:22:55,626 --> 00:22:59,316 Speaker 3: was when I went to Gene's funeral. And he walked up, 341 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:04,796 Speaker 3: and his whole, everything around him seemed black, dark. And 342 00:23:04,836 --> 00:23:09,906 Speaker 3: his face, his look, his everything was just darkness. And 343 00:23:09,986 --> 00:23:11,816 Speaker 3: I knew without a doubt that he had done it. 344 00:23:13,926 --> 00:23:14,526 Speaker 2: He just. 345 00:23:15,966 --> 00:23:20,386 Speaker 3: Looked wicked and evil. You know, this dark face in 346 00:23:20,426 --> 00:23:23,846 Speaker 3: my face. And coming over and being friendly and chatty, 347 00:23:23,896 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 3: and I was thinking, you're a murderer. Why are you 348 00:23:26,536 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 3: even talking to me? 349 00:23:28,646 --> 00:23:33,096 Speaker 2: Jean's sisters, Carol and Linda, were the most unnerved. Carol 350 00:23:33,136 --> 00:23:35,756 Speaker 2: later said she'd reached out to the district attorney's office 351 00:23:35,796 --> 00:23:38,856 Speaker 2: to ask them to investigate, but the office scared her 352 00:23:39,036 --> 00:23:42,316 Speaker 2: by saying that Fred could sue for defamation of character. 353 00:23:43,256 --> 00:23:48,726 Speaker 2: She gave it up. There was one more person who 354 00:23:48,786 --> 00:23:53,226 Speaker 2: was deeply disturbed by all of this. Verna Johnson, the 355 00:23:53,266 --> 00:23:57,426 Speaker 2: woman who would become Fred's second wife. Michelle Williams went 356 00:23:57,466 --> 00:23:59,346 Speaker 2: to see Verna when they found out Jean was in 357 00:23:59,386 --> 00:24:00,426 Speaker 2: a coma in the hospital. 358 00:24:01,866 --> 00:24:06,176 Speaker 8: Verna was Jean's very closest friend at that time, and 359 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:07,376 Speaker 8: Verna and I were also close. 360 00:24:08,776 --> 00:24:12,756 Speaker 2: Verna's husband Bill had been an electrical contractor. He'd died 361 00:24:12,856 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 2: less than a year earlier, after falling from the roof 362 00:24:15,396 --> 00:24:18,116 Speaker 2: of an eight-story building in Westwood, where he was working. 363 00:24:19,036 --> 00:24:21,606 Speaker 2: He had been depressed, and it looked like a suicide, 364 00:24:22,066 --> 00:24:23,586 Speaker 2: but no one really knew for sure. 365 00:24:24,536 --> 00:24:26,576 Speaker 8: I went down and sat with Verna because I knew 366 00:24:26,616 --> 00:24:29,396 Speaker 8: how close she was to Gene. And Verna had losses. 367 00:24:31,726 --> 00:24:35,666 Speaker 2: Verna was really spooked. The whole thing with Gene reminded 368 00:24:35,706 --> 00:24:38,386 Speaker 2: her of some of the exercises from the Lifespring training 369 00:24:38,466 --> 00:24:43,966 Speaker 2: Gene couldn't stop talking about. Guided meditations involving water and death. 370 00:24:45,126 --> 00:24:47,366 Speaker 8: When I went down to talk to Verna that night 371 00:24:47,406 --> 00:24:51,346 Speaker 8: that Gene, you know, or the night after, whatever, Gene 372 00:24:51,466 --> 00:24:55,296 Speaker 8: had become unconscious, you know, he had drowned. Verna told 373 00:24:55,356 --> 00:24:58,536 Speaker 8: me that Jean had gone to this live spring weekend, 374 00:24:59,686 --> 00:25:05,366 Speaker 8: and that Jean had told Verna that she had imagined 375 00:25:05,406 --> 00:25:09,626 Speaker 8: her own death over a waterfall, and that it troubled 376 00:25:09,666 --> 00:25:11,606 Speaker 8: Verna now that Jean had drowned. 377 00:25:13,106 --> 00:25:16,526 Speaker 2: It was an eerie resonance, and one Fred would circle 378 00:25:16,566 --> 00:25:20,836 Speaker 2: back to repeatedly. He noted that Jean had spoken about 379 00:25:20,876 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 2: a guided meditation she'd done in her Lifespring workshop that 380 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 2: was focused on death and dying. She told him she'd 381 00:25:27,576 --> 00:25:30,936 Speaker 2: envisioned a quiet pool of water and a tombstone with 382 00:25:31,016 --> 00:25:34,776 Speaker 2: no date on it. Jean believed she could see the future, 383 00:25:35,296 --> 00:25:38,756 Speaker 2: and it turned out she could, with one small caveat. 384 00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:58,166 Speaker 2: She thought the vision meant she would never die. Candy 385 00:25:58,206 --> 00:26:01,506 Speaker 2: Hinman didn't stay mad at Fred for long. She noticed 386 00:26:01,546 --> 00:26:03,406 Speaker 2: he did have some good attributes. 387 00:26:04,606 --> 00:26:11,486 Speaker 3: Tall, good build, dark hair, I think. Just a handsome man. 388 00:26:12,666 --> 00:26:16,126 Speaker 2: She thought an adventuresome friend of hers, Gail Carmichael, might 389 00:26:16,146 --> 00:26:19,196 Speaker 2: like him, despite the drama over Gene's death. 390 00:26:20,416 --> 00:26:24,176 Speaker 3: He was. He was very attractive, and he had such charisma. 391 00:26:26,256 --> 00:26:30,426 Speaker 3: And she also was that way nothing scared her. I 392 00:26:31,366 --> 00:26:33,986 Speaker 3: had told her what I thought had happened prior, but 393 00:26:34,046 --> 00:26:37,966 Speaker 3: that everybody else thought he was innocent. Everybody in town 394 00:26:38,006 --> 00:26:40,666 Speaker 3: was just so upset over what happened to Gene, and 395 00:26:40,726 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 3: nobody had any idea that it was related to Fred. 396 00:26:44,176 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 3: And everybody at that time was touting how wonderful he was. 397 00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:53,956 Speaker 2: Fred told an investigator how Candy had played matchmaker with Gail. 398 00:26:54,836 --> 00:26:57,946 Speaker 2: And let's be clear, This is Fred's version of their 399 00:26:58,026 --> 00:26:59,046 Speaker 2: wild first date. 400 00:27:00,506 --> 00:27:02,666 Speaker 4: Shortly after Jean died, she said, you know, when you're 401 00:27:02,706 --> 00:27:05,586 Speaker 4: ready to get back into circulation and so forth, let 402 00:27:05,626 --> 00:27:08,686 Speaker 4: me know. She said, well, why don't you consider coming 403 00:27:08,746 --> 00:27:13,056 Speaker 4: over and having dinner? And I said, okay. And I said, 404 00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 4: is this a kid's thing? She said, oh, yeah. So 405 00:27:15,176 --> 00:27:18,186 Speaker 4: I went over with the kids. And so I went over, 406 00:27:18,206 --> 00:27:22,346 Speaker 4: and this is while I'm parking our old Ford. This 407 00:27:22,646 --> 00:27:26,306 Speaker 4: lady pulls up in her pink Cadillac, Seville, whatever the 408 00:27:26,386 --> 00:27:29,096 Speaker 4: year was, brand new one. She got out of the car, 409 00:27:29,116 --> 00:27:31,456 Speaker 4: and the lights are still on. So I said, you know, 410 00:27:31,516 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 4: your lights are still on. She said, yeah, the car 411 00:27:33,016 --> 00:27:36,416 Speaker 4: will turn on in about a minute. Things like that 412 00:27:36,456 --> 00:27:40,116 Speaker 4: went on. So we went in, and it had a 413 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:45,006 Speaker 4: fairly stilted view. I would think she smoked and I 414 00:27:45,046 --> 00:27:47,966 Speaker 4: don't smoke and it's one of those things. And she 415 00:27:47,986 --> 00:27:50,626 Speaker 4: seemed to be a little bit aloof and I was 416 00:27:50,866 --> 00:27:56,076 Speaker 4: a little bit apathetic. Well, as the evening went on 417 00:27:56,136 --> 00:27:59,736 Speaker 4: and as the liquor got quicker, more or less, I 418 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:01,856 Speaker 4: know we had wine to start with and we had 419 00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:06,386 Speaker 4: warm fuzzies, which is like a cappuccino type of a 420 00:28:06,406 --> 00:28:11,136 Speaker 4: thing with coolant and cream and everything. Maybe it was not. Yeah, 421 00:28:11,176 --> 00:28:14,576 Speaker 4: they were wonderful. And then we had a little bit 422 00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:21,736 Speaker 4: of marijuana in a couple of joints. And then the 423 00:28:21,776 --> 00:28:24,796 Speaker 4: rest of it got really gray until we were taking 424 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:28,056 Speaker 4: each other's clothes off and thrashing about under the coffee table. 425 00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:30,406 Speaker 4: And I'm going, I don't really believe this is going on. 426 00:28:30,906 --> 00:28:32,686 Speaker 4: And the other people had already left, and the kids 427 00:28:32,706 --> 00:28:34,746 Speaker 4: were obviously already in bed. This was, you know, in 428 00:28:34,766 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 4: the early hours of the morning. And we tried to 429 00:28:38,376 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 4: get in there in the hot tub, and the hot 430 00:28:40,056 --> 00:28:43,096 Speaker 4: tub was too hot. We really couldn't get in there. 431 00:28:43,176 --> 00:28:45,836 Speaker 4: It was like 118 or something. It screwed up the thermostat. 432 00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:49,966 Speaker 4: So we drove up to my place and spent the 433 00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:53,686 Speaker 4: rest of the morning and so forth. I guess it 434 00:28:53,706 --> 00:28:56,466 Speaker 4: was probably around noon when she finally left. I can 435 00:28:56,506 --> 00:28:59,526 Speaker 4: still remember saying, you think we know each other well 436 00:28:59,566 --> 00:29:01,926 Speaker 4: enough that I could get your phone number and call you? 437 00:29:04,426 --> 00:29:04,486 Speaker 3: Uh. 438 00:29:06,306 --> 00:29:10,216 Speaker 4: And we had talked a lot that morning about our 439 00:29:10,256 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 4: lives and where we were coming from and all these 440 00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:18,556 Speaker 4: types of things. And it was very unusual, I mean, 441 00:29:18,796 --> 00:29:23,486 Speaker 4: needless to say, to have it happen like that. 442 00:29:24,166 --> 00:29:29,266 Speaker 2: Gail, Fred said, introduced him to her psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Remus. 443 00:29:30,486 --> 00:29:32,746 Speaker 4: And she was telling me that she was in therapy with... 444 00:29:33,746 --> 00:29:40,466 Speaker 4: He started taking Wednesdays off, he told the investigator. was 445 00:29:40,506 --> 00:29:42,066 Speaker 4: really an interesting person. 446 00:29:42,486 --> 00:29:45,506 Speaker 2: He started taking Wednesdays off, he told the investigator. 447 00:29:45,976 --> 00:29:50,136 Speaker 4: So I was taking off Wednesdays, every Wednesday. And I 448 00:29:50,176 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 4: would go down and see Gail and have an omelet 449 00:29:54,576 --> 00:30:02,856 Speaker 4: with her and we would normally have sex. And then 450 00:30:02,886 --> 00:30:04,426 Speaker 4: in the afternoon I would go over and have my 451 00:30:04,466 --> 00:30:06,586 Speaker 4: head worked on by Remus and I would go home 452 00:30:06,666 --> 00:30:10,586 Speaker 4: in the afternoon and Tough schedule. Quite nicely, actually. It 453 00:30:10,626 --> 00:30:14,386 Speaker 4: was a tough schedule. It would be a brunch and 454 00:30:14,406 --> 00:30:15,566 Speaker 4: she had a hot tub. 455 00:30:23,416 --> 00:30:26,336 Speaker 2: According to Candy, the relationship ended abruptly. 456 00:30:27,296 --> 00:30:29,636 Speaker 3: And she said that at one point they were having 457 00:30:29,656 --> 00:30:34,716 Speaker 3: a conversation and I think this was after she'd seen 458 00:30:34,736 --> 00:30:36,876 Speaker 3: him one or two times and they were intimate one 459 00:30:36,936 --> 00:30:39,436 Speaker 3: morning and He said, have you ever done anything that 460 00:30:39,456 --> 00:30:42,076 Speaker 3: you couldn't change and you felt bad about but you 461 00:30:42,096 --> 00:30:42,946 Speaker 3: could never change it? 462 00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:46,976 Speaker 2: She thought he was confessing to killing his wife. 463 00:30:48,036 --> 00:30:50,506 Speaker 3: And she just said she just froze with that and 464 00:30:50,646 --> 00:30:54,166 Speaker 3: did not go on anymore with that conversation and was 465 00:30:54,546 --> 00:30:58,486 Speaker 3: pretty sure that what I thought was right. And she 466 00:30:58,526 --> 00:30:59,346 Speaker 3: didn't see him anymore. 467 00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 2: But Fred says that's not true. There was a different 468 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:10,236 Speaker 2: reason things didn't work out with Gail. It was just 469 00:31:10,376 --> 00:31:11,416 Speaker 2: too much to juggle. 470 00:31:11,436 --> 00:31:16,876 Speaker 4: The hard part was trying to keep Gail and Myrna 471 00:31:16,896 --> 00:31:22,416 Speaker 4: separate in a physical sense and in a mental thing, 472 00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:25,216 Speaker 4: trying to really decide which of these two people I 473 00:31:25,236 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 4: really wanted to pursue my life with. It was very heavy. 474 00:31:29,736 --> 00:31:33,716 Speaker 2: Fred was in a dilemma because just months after Jean's death, 475 00:31:34,396 --> 00:31:39,896 Speaker 2: He wasn't only seeing Gail. He was dating Verna, too. 476 00:31:53,426 --> 00:31:56,686 Speaker 2: Coming up on the next episode of Lost Hills, Verna's 477 00:31:56,706 --> 00:31:58,326 Speaker 2: sister has concerns. 478 00:31:58,346 --> 00:32:00,026 Speaker 5: I said. 479 00:32:00,576 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 8: are you sure things, you know, are okay? 480 00:32:03,496 --> 00:32:04,276 Speaker 4: And she said, yes. 481 00:32:04,376 --> 00:32:06,506 Speaker 1: She said, Fred and I have talked at length about it. 482 00:32:07,236 --> 00:32:09,456 Speaker 4: He's gone over the accident with me. 483 00:32:09,976 --> 00:32:12,576 Speaker 1: But I was concerned for my sister because I thought, 484 00:32:13,416 --> 00:32:14,876 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want her to get involved with 485 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:17,656 Speaker 1: something that, you know, would. 486 00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:19,406 Speaker 4: Tear both of them apart later on. 487 00:32:20,386 --> 00:32:26,636 Speaker 2: That's next in Episode 5, Who Would You Take? Lost 488 00:32:26,656 --> 00:32:29,716 Speaker 2: Hills is written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's 489 00:32:29,776 --> 00:32:33,476 Speaker 2: created by me and Ben Adair and produced by Western 490 00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:40,036 Speaker 2: Sound and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you 491 00:32:40,056 --> 00:32:42,696 Speaker 2: can hear the whole season ad-free and get early access 492 00:32:42,736 --> 00:32:45,646 Speaker 2: to the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on the 493 00:32:45,686 --> 00:32:48,586 Speaker 2: Lost Hills show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.