1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hi, Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: A lot of you agreed with the advice I gave 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: the couple who wrote in last week to recap. 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: A woman wrote in saying she's thirty two and her 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: boyfriend is thirty six. They've been dating for six years, 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: and she wrote in with the concern that despite the 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: fact that they've voted similarly, they're both Republicans who voted 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: for Trump, she's moving rightward and he's moving leftward. I 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: told them that politics wasn't actually their problem. It's that 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: they've been together for six years and are not engaged, 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 2: not moving forward, and a lot of you agreed with that. 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: I had lunch with a new friend this week and 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: we talked relationships and how I think it's the moving 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: forward together that really keeps a relationship going. I'm married 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: for nearly sixteen years, but we're constantly thinking about our future. 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: What are our summer plans, not just this summer, but 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: also summer twenty twenty six. Our youngest child is nine, 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: but what are we thinking for when the kids are 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: out of the house. How long will we stay in 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: our current house? It'll be too big for us, But 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: We also love the idea of them having a comfortable 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: home to come back to whenever they want and bring 23 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: our grandkids back too. I know, life happens, and the 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: future you picture doesn't always work out the way you 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 2: think it will. It's a common story. I'm not saying 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: that moving forward immediately inoculates you from that. Plenty of 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: people have been married twenty years, thirty years, pictured their 28 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 2: future lives together and had it end abruptly. It happens, 29 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: I know. But it helps when you're looking outward in 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: the same direction. It helps sustain your current relationship to 31 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: think about the future together. I would say that while 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: building toward a future together doesn't one hundred percent mean 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: that the future will will work out the way you intend. 34 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: If you're not building together, then that is probably a problem. 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: You should be a team. You're a unit. And so 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: many people, you know, I've heard this over the years 37 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: say things like they love the whole. Oh but Woody 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: Allen and Mia Farrow waved at each other from their 39 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: own individual apartments across Central Park. You don't have to 40 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: live together, you don't have to tie your lives to 41 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: each other, and you could still be together. Sure, but 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: we know how their story ends. And while not every 43 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: relationship like that will end up with the guy marrying 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: his girlfriend's daughter, I've never heard of a relationship that 45 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: isn't moving forward that ends up working out. And yes, 46 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: I do mean moving forward with all the traditional markers 47 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 2: of marriage, living together, tying your lives together. Officially I 48 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: gave them advice last episode, but if the couple who 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: wrote in are listening, I would add that you shouldn't 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: try to rewrite how relationships work. This thing has been 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: working the way it has. This plan has existed for 52 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: hundreds of years. Keep moving forward together. Thanks for listening. 53 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: Coming up my interview with Joseph Browdie. But first, after 54 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: more than a year of war, terror and pain in Israel, 55 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: all of Israel is broken hearted after learning of the 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: tragic deaths of the Beavers children who were held hostage 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: in Gaza, and so many are still herding throughout the 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 2: Holy Land, where the need for aid continues to grow. 59 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has supported and 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: continues to support the families of hostages and other victims 61 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: of the October seventh terror attacks. With your help. IFCJ 62 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: has provided financial and emotional help to hostages and their families, 63 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: and to those healing and rebuilding their broken homes and 64 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: broken bodies. But the real work is just beginning. Your 65 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: gift will help provide critically needed support to families in 66 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: Israel whose lives continue to be destroyed by terror and 67 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: uncertainty as Israel remains surrounded by enemies. Give a gift 68 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: to bless Israel and her people by visiting SUPPORTIFCJ dot org. 69 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: One word support IFCJ dot org or call eight eight 70 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: eight four eight eight IFCJ. That's eight eight eight four 71 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: eight eight IFCJ. 72 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 3: And welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 73 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 3: My guest today is Joseph Browdie. Joseph is president and 74 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: founder of Center for Peace Communications, a nonprofit group who 75 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: partners with Gaza and countries across the Middle East to 76 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: help tell the stories of the people who want to 77 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: be free from brutal conditions of terrorist control. So nice 78 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 3: to have you on, Joseph. 79 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Carol, it's my pleasure. 80 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: I have to tell you that your group has some 81 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: big goals. Those are some wide ranging achievements that you 82 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 3: guys are hoping to get to. What made you start 83 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: this group. 84 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 4: Well, my background is in the study of the Middle East, 85 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 4: and I've been living and working in Arab countries and 86 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 4: Iran for the past thirty years. And one of the 87 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 4: things that one learns very quickly is that despite the 88 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 4: projections and coverage of extremism, violence and terror, there are 89 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 4: so many people who just want a different future and 90 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 4: have the courage to press for it, but they've been 91 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 4: denied the opportunity. They've been denied a platform, organizational tools, 92 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 4: and other things that are essential while they're Islamist and 93 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 4: militant rivals are funded and armed to the chiefs. So 94 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 4: what we try to do is fill that gap a 95 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 4: little bit by providing our moral support, but also are 96 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 4: helping amplifying their voices, helping them organize and grow their 97 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 4: numbers so that they can begin to rectify the imbalance 98 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 4: in these societies. 99 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: Do you feel hopeful about that? It's just it sounds 100 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: so unachievable right now. It seems further away than ever. 101 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people that used to have 102 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 3: peace as a goal in the Middle East are kind 103 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: of like, I don't think this will ever happen, and 104 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: now we should just prepare for not war, necessarily not 105 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 3: hot war, but just to constantly be on guard and 106 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: that the piece goal is completely off the table. 107 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 4: Well, there's reason to be helpful if you take a 108 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 4: longer look at what's happened in the past few decades. 109 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 4: One sterling example is the UAE, and I bring it 110 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 4: up because when I first lived there in nineteen ninety 111 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 4: nine as a graduate student, the Muslim Brotherhood was the 112 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 4: dominant cultural force in the country, and over a twenty 113 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: year period, that government set out to systematically change the 114 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 4: culture of the UAE to empower elements within the society 115 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 4: they didn't want what the brother had had to sell, 116 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 4: changed the schools, the nature of religious indoctrination and media 117 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 4: incitement into something much more constructive, and over time it 118 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 4: really has changed the fabric of the society and paved 119 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: the way to a more peaceful environment for people all 120 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 4: over the world. So these kinds of changes are possible. 121 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 4: They take top down efforts and grassroots support from the 122 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 4: bottom up, and you have to try because what is 123 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 4: after all the alternatives? You know, military solutions alone don't 124 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: fix the problem. 125 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: So the Center for Peace Communications recently we had these 126 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 3: videos showing that Gazens support Trump's relocation plan, and that 127 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: was a surprise to me. Was it a surprise to 128 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: you or did you expect to find that? 129 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 4: So those videos are a little piece of a much 130 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 4: longer series of testimony that we've been releasing going back 131 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 4: to the beginning of twenty twenty three, and we've platformed 132 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: Gosins to share since long before October seventh, to share 133 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 4: what it's like to live under Hamas rule and talk 134 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: about their ideas for a different future. And we've platformed 135 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 4: the very brave people who took to the streets in 136 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen and July of twenty twenty three to protest 137 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 4: Hamas rule at great cost to themselves and their families. 138 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 4: So these recent videos were an effort to understand what 139 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 4: Gosins thought of the statements that President Trump made about 140 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 4: the idea of resettlement, voluntary relocation to other countries, perhaps 141 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 4: in the region. And what we found wasn't that surprising. Actually, 142 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 4: the fact that a lot of people, it would seem 143 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 4: the majority of Gaza's today want to take up President 144 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 4: Trump on the opportunity to live elsewhere is a natural 145 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 4: reaction to the terrible conditions of Gaza today. It's the 146 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 4: same human instinct that has led millions of Syrians and 147 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 4: Ukrainians to flee their countries during war. Now in Syria 148 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 4: we see some number of them beginning to come back 149 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 4: under changed conditions. But even before October seventh, there was 150 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 4: a Palestinian poll that showed about a third of the 151 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 4: population of Gaza wanting to migrate in response to corruption 152 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 4: and brute under Hama's rule. And that was when there 153 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 4: was still a semblance of continuity in daily life. And 154 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 4: obviously as the war took its human toll, and there's 155 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 4: some indication that Hamas remains a force to be reckoned 156 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 4: with in the strip. Those are two pieces of really 157 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 4: bad news that makes the desire to find safe haven 158 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 4: even more strong and more broad. 159 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: Countries that have taken in Ukrainians or Syrians haven't taken 160 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: in Palestinians and anywhere near the same numbers. 161 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 4: I think that the countries that are pondering this and 162 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 4: setting policies about and toward Gaza need to choose between 163 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 4: helping between the cause of helping Palestinians and alleviating the 164 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 4: suffering in Gaza versus feeding a very militant and ultimately 165 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 4: self destructive definition of a cause as defined by Hamas 166 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 4: that puts the cause and Hamas maintaining power ahead of 167 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 4: the interests of the population. So there's talk of forced migration, 168 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 4: but it's actually a red herring. The real force these 169 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 4: people want safe haven. The force that's being applied is 170 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 4: by Hamas. They're threatening to shoot people if they would 171 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 4: if they try to emigrate, and the reason is the 172 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 4: same reason that they actually did shoot people in northern 173 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 4: Gaza fleeing fighting in the south, because they wanted to 174 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 4: keep them there as human shields. So that's not a 175 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: cause anybody should want to serve. But when a majority 176 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 4: of Gazans are saying, President Trump, are you serious? Because 177 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 4: if we had an opportunity to live safely in perhaps 178 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 4: another Arab country or beyond, we would do it. That's 179 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 4: something that the world needs. 180 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: To listen to. Do you think you serious? 181 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, we don't know. There's a lot of 182 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 4: speculation as to whether the purpose of those statements was 183 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 4: to affect negotiations and other discussions about the future of Gaza, 184 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 4: to prompt Arab countries to innovate remedies of their own, 185 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 4: So it's not clear. But what is clear to me 186 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 4: based on hundreds of interviews that we continue to do 187 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 4: every day in Gaza. Is that if these people had 188 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 4: the opportunity, if that border opened, it would look like 189 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 4: the fall of the Berlin Wall. It would be a 190 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 4: human deluge of people seeking a better life. And as 191 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 4: one person put it, if so much as a crack 192 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 4: opened in that wall, Gazans would rush to break it down. 193 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: Did you always want to be in this kind of space, 194 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 3: like when you were a kid, what did you want 195 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: to be? 196 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 4: I've always been interested in two things, which are the 197 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 4: use of media and communications to change things for the 198 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: better as a cultural driver, and a love of the 199 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 4: Middle East, of the peoples and cultures of the Middle East, 200 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 4: and that dates back to family heritage. My mother was 201 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 4: born in Baghdad to the remnants of the Jewish community 202 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 4: in Iraq that goes back to twenty six hundred years 203 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 4: in the country. And I've been studying the music of 204 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 4: the Middle East which I play, and the history the 205 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 4: culture and really kind of living it all this time. 206 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 4: So it's been a natural and continual development of ideas 207 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:52,599 Speaker 4: and efforts. 208 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 3: Do you get support for your work from the Jewish community? 209 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 4: Is it so? We are funded nonprofit organization that is 210 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 4: funded entirely by American private philanthropy. There's no government support 211 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 4: and there's no foreign funding. And the religion of our 212 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 4: donors actually they're all religious backgrounds, certainly including members of 213 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 4: the Jewish community. And also it's a bipartisan bunch that 214 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 4: straddles Democrats and Republicans. 215 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: Really that's interesting, any like, is it fifty to fifty 216 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: or is it more of one or the other. 217 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: I mean, I'd have to think about that breakdown is 218 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 4: I think the reason why we attract, you know, different 219 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: people with different ideas is that the issues that we 220 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 4: bring forward don't divide between right and left. And you know, 221 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 4: these are human causes. I mean, when we're speaking about 222 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 4: the specific issue of the question of resettlement, one of 223 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 4: the other things that these gosins are saying is this 224 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 4: should not be politicized, right, and we were really try 225 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 4: to take that to heart ourselves in the nature of 226 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 4: what we do as well. 227 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 228 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 229 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: It's interesting. And the reason I ask that is I 230 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: think some of my listeners are going to be surprised 231 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: that I'm interviewing somebody like you. I just think that 232 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: a lot of people again today hear peace or you 233 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 3: know committee, you know, a group that is committed to peace, 234 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: and they think, oh, that just means Israel is going 235 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 3: to have to surrender, or oh that just means you know, 236 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 3: a pro Hamas really take And you're not like that. 237 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 3: You're not that at all. So I think it's interesting. 238 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: I was just wondering, like who you appeal to initially 239 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 3: or in general. That's that's why I was asking that, 240 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: like if it's left or right. 241 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 4: So it's a good question. Let me give you an 242 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 4: example of how we see this. There are a lot 243 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: of people in the US who have been concerned about 244 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 4: a rising protest movement on college campuses that, while ostensibly 245 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 4: concerned about the Palestinians, has been in effect pro Hamas. 246 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 4: So the voices that we bring out from the region 247 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: are presenting a challenge to those people and urging them 248 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 4: to choose between supporting Hamas and supporting the people who 249 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 4: are suffering under the rule of Hamas in Gaza. And 250 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 4: that is you know, it's a nuance. It's not really 251 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 4: a nuance. It's a crucial distinction that makes all of 252 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 4: the difference. You know, where are your humanitarian instincts being directed? 253 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 4: And Hamas works to manipulate people into serving them when 254 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 4: they're really the most inhumane actor in the area. 255 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: What do you worry about, Well. 256 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 4: I worry that the opportunity to empower people who want 257 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 4: a different future will be missed. And the reason is that, 258 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: you know, democratic countries in the West tend to pursue 259 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 4: a very militarized foreign policy. That is, they do hard 260 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 4: power very well. They know how to develop armies, and 261 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 4: these are essential tools for tools of state craft. But 262 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 4: when it comes to the strategic use of soft power, right, 263 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 4: there's an issue. There's a little bit of a problem 264 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 4: because a lot of the aid organizations and endowments for 265 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 4: democratic development have supported undemocratic forces in many countries, and 266 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 4: there hasn't really been a strategic use of American soft 267 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 4: power to actually strengthen the forces that want to confront 268 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 4: these horrible militias on the ground themselves. And yet these 269 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 4: people are there. They're an essential part of the larger 270 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 4: puzzle of how to defeat these destructive ideologies. And the 271 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: opportunity I worry about people missing is engaging these people 272 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 4: figuring out how to strengthen their hand, level the playing field, 273 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 4: and actually win this competition against an ideology that has 274 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 4: brought only death and destruction. 275 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: Do you think there's an example of a country that 276 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 3: does use soft power? Well, is there anybody we should 277 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 3: be emulating? 278 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 4: I think the example, the example that I'd be most 279 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 4: proud of, is the United States at crucial moments in 280 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 4: the Cold War, when we were supporting opponents of Soviet 281 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 4: communism and Stalinism behind the Iron Curtain. We were helping 282 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 4: them by broadcasting the truth into their countries via radio liberty. 283 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 4: We were empowering labor unions to challenge Soviet domination from within. 284 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 4: We were helping public intellectuals, getting them platforms to express 285 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 4: themselves and challenge these ideologies on the basis of rational argumentation, 286 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 4: while we were also employing economic and military tools at 287 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 4: the same time, and that combination, I think is a 288 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 4: big part of what won. 289 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: The Cold War. 290 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 4: And you know, in advocating for competitive of soft power, 291 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting something new. I'm suggesting a revival of 292 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 4: a tradition that America once embraced and did very well. 293 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: What advice would you give your sixteen year old self, 294 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: What have you learned along the way that he needs 295 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 3: to know. 296 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 4: I guess when I was sixteen and I wanted. 297 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 3: To where were you age? 298 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 4: Well, I was in a high school in Providence, Rhode 299 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 4: Island Public High School. I was playing jazz piano. I 300 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 4: was publishing a newspaper, little neighborhood newspaper, and I was 301 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 4: thinking about how to develop a relationship with the peoples 302 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 4: and cultures of the Middle East that would be about 303 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: bringing change. And I guess the thing that I worried 304 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 4: about the most was how do you connect with these 305 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 4: distant places and developed sustained relationships while living a balanced 306 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 4: life at the same time, I mean the jet setting 307 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 4: that would be necessary, extensive of travel and so on. 308 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 4: How do you build and maintain bonds of trust with 309 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 4: people all over the Middle East? And to some degree 310 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 4: those problems I don't want to say they solved themselves, 311 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 4: but the availability of WhatsApp and Zoom and so many 312 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 4: tools that we have today enable one to build organizational 313 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: relationships and virtual workplaces and things that were inconceivable when 314 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 4: I was sixteen. So I guess I would have told 315 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 4: myself to relax, because sometimes solutions present themselves over time 316 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 4: to things that seem insurmountable in the moment. 317 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: Did you feel a connection to Iraq because of your heritage? 318 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 4: Like absolutely feel you, Yeah, deeply connected. And one of 319 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 4: the things that I'm most proud of that we did 320 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 4: as an organization back in September of twenty twenty one 321 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 4: was to go to a to organize a fleet of 322 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: sixty cars to bring three hundred and twelve Iraqis from 323 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: across the country from Baghdad, Abil Salahadin Dyala from six 324 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 4: governorates to an event hall in northern Iraq where they 325 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 4: collectively and publicly called for peace with Israel and an 326 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 4: end to Iranian domination. And they did this in open 327 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 4: defiance of Iranian militias. And I was one of the 328 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: people who gave a speech in Arabic at the event, 329 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 4: but joined by some of the bravest people I've ever met, 330 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 4: including a single mother of five who risked everything to 331 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 4: give what turned out to be the most stirring speech 332 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 4: of the evening. Hesbila declared war on the conference. Hassan 333 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 4: Nasralla himself made a speech calling for an all out 334 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 4: assault on the people who had stood up to do this. 335 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 4: We had a plan in place to protect them. It succeeded, 336 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 4: and it just was a public display of this trend. 337 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 4: I'm talking about the fact that three hundred people stood 338 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 4: up and called for normalization with Israel in a place 339 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 4: like Iraq surrounded by militias. Speaks to the vast number 340 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 4: of people who share their aspirations if they don't have 341 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 4: quite as much courage. 342 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: It's actually amazing to me that you feel that connection 343 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 3: to Iraq. I was born in the former Soviet Union. 344 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 3: I was born in Russia, but my father's from Ukraine. 345 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 3: I mean, just the way that they treated Jews, it 346 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: makes me not feel that warm towards either country. And 347 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: you know, I wonder about the fact that you still 348 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: want to help a country that wasn't great to your family. 349 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: I'm sure it's kind of amazing to me. And what 350 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 3: do you think, where do you think it comes from? 351 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 4: Well, it's a mixed historical legacy. Well, it's a very 352 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 4: long history. It dates back twenty six hundred years to 353 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 4: the destruction of the Temple of Solomon and the Babylonian exile. 354 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 4: And so although it ended very badly, the Farahud of 355 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 4: nineteen forty one was a terrible massacre of Jews, and 356 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 4: that accelerated the end of twenty six hundred years of 357 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 4: Iraqi Jewish history. You know, there were many long periods 358 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 4: of coexistence. Iraqi Jews helped build the Iraqi state. The 359 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 4: first Treasury Minister of Iraq, who persuaded the British to 360 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 4: compensate Iraq for its oil in gold, was an Iraqi Jew. 361 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 4: Most of the players of the Iraqi National Orchestra were Jews. 362 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 4: They migrated with one hundred and fifty thousand others to 363 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 4: Israel and became the voice of Israel Arabic Orchestra, which 364 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 4: enjoyed it very large audience in the Middle East into 365 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 4: the sixties and seventies. So there are these lingering friendships 366 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 4: and positive memories in addition to the virulent strand of 367 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 4: Jew hatred that was always there and that spiked considerably 368 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 4: in the twentieth century when powerful forces began to bankroll them, 369 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 4: beginning with the Nazis, who were in some ways orchestrating 370 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 4: through proxies, that terrible massacre. So, you know, the kind 371 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 4: of support that we want to provide to Iraqis is 372 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 4: a support that is based on peace and partnership between 373 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 4: the Israeli and the Iraqi people. We believe that that 374 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 4: is in the interest of both countries. We believe that 375 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 4: those who oppose co development, regional integration and so on 376 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 4: are the ones who harmed Iraq, and the ones who 377 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 4: stand for peace and development, those are the ones who 378 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 4: need to be helped. So it's a kind of a 379 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 4: specific kind of aspiration and it's something I believe in 380 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 4: very deeply. 381 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 3: Well, this has been super interesting. I had no idea 382 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: where this was going to go, so I really enjoyed 383 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 3: our conversation. And here with your best tip for my 384 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 3: listeners on how they can improve their lives. 385 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 4: Well, I mean my experience has been to focus. I mean, 386 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 4: I have a sense of who I am, and I've 387 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 4: given a lot of thought to my place in the world, 388 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 4: but overwhelmingly I focus outward on listening to people, on 389 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 4: understanding others on their own terms, rather than projecting my 390 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 4: own identity and sensibilities onto them. So I would stress 391 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 4: the importance of looking outward at least as much as 392 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 4: we as we think inward. 393 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 3: I love that he is Joseph Browdie. His group is 394 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 3: Center for Peace Communications. Check out their work. It's super interesting. 395 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming on Joseph. 396 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: Thank you, Carol, Thanks so much for joining us on 397 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: The Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.