1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: The media. So Trump is kind of moving like a 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: bull in a china shop, or rather a bull and 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: a missile shop. You know, I think that's a more 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: apt analogy. The system of government wasn't exactly benign beforehand, 5 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I think it really needs to click 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: for people that Trump is not truly exceptional mm hmm. 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: Rather he's a product of the normal that people seem 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: to be uni for. 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: And the other issues we're dealing with too. 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think like this is the the crux of 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: what comes next. Right, It's like we have this, like 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to I don't want to disparage people. 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: We have this tendency in American politics, this liberal tendency, 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: progressive liberal tendency. Even to think that, like basically things 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: have been magnificent until the first week of November in 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, right, that America was progressing on this like 18 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: linear pathway towards total quality and justice for all, and 19 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: that what's happening now is an aberration. It's the idea 20 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: that there's a few individuals conspiring, rather that there is 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: a system which inherently creates interest which we're opposed to 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: our own. 23 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, exactly. It's like all of these these 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: these problems, the genocide we're waging long before Trump came 25 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: into power, you know, the economic strains people are feeling 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: today that people have been feeling for decades for their 27 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: entire lives. You know, the climate crisis that is only 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: worse and this time is going on. You know, all 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: of this is a product of that normal, of that 30 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: pre Trump normal. And I still hear people asking, you know, 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: when are things going to go back to normal? When 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: can we settle down? When will we go back onto 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: the track of normalcy? And well, if you're listening to 34 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: this podcast, I think you already know what time it is. 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: This is it could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage and 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm joined. 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: By James again here to talk about the new normal. 38 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: All right, and welcome, thank you. The new normal, the 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: ever shifting normal, the phantom of normal and why it 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 1: is that it's really not coming back, and why normalcy 41 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: as a concept is actually pretty weird. So part of 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: I think what feeds into this notion of normal is 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: this myth of progress that people are obsessed with. You know, 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: recently read this book Progress by Samuon Miller McDonald and 45 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: I would like to do a review of it at 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: some point for the podcast. But the short of it 47 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: is that it gets into just how pervasive this concept 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: of progress is in kind of tripping people up and 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: keeping us serve insistems that don't serve us. You know, 50 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned progressives Eulier, and you know, even that notion 51 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: I think of being a progressive. He kind of calls 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: that into question in the course of the book, going 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: from ancient times to talking about a religious sense of 54 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: a promised land to the sort of modern sense of 55 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: a secular or technological progressive improvement or a social progressive improvement. 56 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: He identifies it as a story and a story that's 57 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: so powerful that it acts like a sedative. You know, 58 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: we don't engage with the degree in reality the world 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: around us, because be wrapped up in this all powerful 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: feet were balance of progress. The progress is linear, that 61 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: we are ever striving forward, you know, and we point 62 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: to examples of things like social progress. But as he 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: quotes in the book, it's like what Malcolm X said. 64 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: You know, if I stick a knife into you and 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: I only pull it out three inches, that's our progress. 66 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: Put it out six inches. That's our progress nine inches. 67 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: That's a progress. Progress will be, you know, removing the 68 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: knife completely and mending the wound. But I would take 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: it a step further and say that is it really 70 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: progress to go back to a state that already was? 71 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: Is it progress to abolish slavery when there was a 72 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: time when slavery did not exist? You know, going back 73 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: to a previous defaulted state is not necessarily contributing to 74 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: Thenat same thing with patriarchy, you know, patriarchy did not 75 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: always exist. Eroding and abolishing the patriarchy reaching a point 76 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: where the limitations placed on women are no longer there? 77 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: Can we call that progress or suggest rectifying a previously 78 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: imposed state? And so these are some of the questions 79 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: he grapples with. And there's also, of course, the techno 80 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: utopian promise of you know, we getting self driving cars 81 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: any minute, you know, fusion energy AI and didn't work forever. 82 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: You know, all these things are blind to the social 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: ecological reality of collapse. But what else would you say, 84 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: might see this myth showing up in politics? I think 85 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: I covered a good few, but I might be missing something. 86 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I mean it's almost in everything, right, Like 87 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: it's a fundamental myth of liberal capitalism. I guess, like 88 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: it also underlies a certain logic of colonialism, right, the 89 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: idea that like progress towards that then a neoliberal state 90 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: is this can be like the logic of explicit or 91 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: less explicit colonialism, I guess. But like you see it 92 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 2: there too, right, Like you see it in the sort 93 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: of do you see a lot in nineteenth century it's 94 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: very explicit the idea to uplift, civilize and christianize our 95 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 2: little brown brothers. 96 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, the civilizing miss yeah, yeah, yeah. 97 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: The white man's burden and these things that became very 98 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: very on vogue in the late nineteenth thirty twentieth century. 99 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: I suppose you see it a lot there too, right. 100 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all notion. I think that Ian's released with 101 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: the concept of civilization when you have that civilized other 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: divide that binary of the civilized and the barber area 103 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: and all the civilized and the savage, and how that 104 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: gets turned into this mission that civilization expands, that you 105 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: bring those savage peoples into the fold and you slowly, 106 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, bring them up, make them upright men, and 107 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: closer to being human than the state that they were in. Previously, 108 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: and the whole narrative around that's what has as it 109 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: has evolved with time, led to the situation a bit 110 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: in now. Yeah, and there's this idea as well that 111 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: even when there are these ruptures in normal, that everything 112 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: will go back to its right place. But as of 113 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: people say, you know, history is a series of unprecedented things, 114 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: you know, And one of the unprecedented things in history 115 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: that I wish people would realize is not ever going 116 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: to come back, is is that sort of post war 117 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: economic boom, you know, that nineteen fifty era growth and 118 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: excess that has become the default day that many people 119 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: are striving to return to, when in reality, something like 120 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: that is a historical normally driven by artificially cheap and 121 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: abundant energy. Yeah, you know, the normal that people are 122 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: talking about sometimes it's just this fifty to seventy year 123 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: fossil fuel binge, a binge that we are reaching the 124 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: end of. And I think a fantasy to believe that 125 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: we can replicate for all the time. 126 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, but it's the time that so much of 127 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: the like the world that we exist in, was created, right, 128 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: and like people almost see themselves as like a different 129 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: species from human beings in the in the nineteenth century, right, Yeah, 130 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: they can't conceive of society that way. 131 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly, And it's something that I've been well on 132 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: because like, what a time to be alive to see, 133 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: you know, personal cars being so ubiquitous. But the ubiquity 134 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: of personal cars is an aberration. It's a historical laboration. 135 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: It's not one that is likely to be sustainable in 136 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: the long term. You know, even if there are electric 137 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: cars taking a place of gas powered vehicles and we 138 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: run out of gas oil, even the materials necessary to 139 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: produce electric cars are not always going to be around. 140 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: They're not always going to exist. We can't supplement each 141 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: and every individual person with a car for all of time. 142 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, so many of the rare earth minerals 143 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: that are again quite rare, we've we've spent them on 144 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: things that may serve a novelty or an interest in 145 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: the short term, but it's something that we can maintain forever. 146 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: You know. I hear people talking about this EI bubble, 147 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: you know, and it is in the sense of the 148 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: financial markets, the financial aspect of AI, and how it's 149 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: affecting our perception of the economy and whether that bubble 150 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: is going to burst economically. But I'm more interested in 151 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: the EI bubble in the sense that how long can 152 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: this EI everywhere thing persist when the material is necessary 153 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: to maintain it because it is material, despite the sort 154 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: of cloud marketing they get associated with it. How long 155 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: until we run out of those materials, until those material 156 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: needs cannot be sustained. 157 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we keep shifting like the goalposts, but like the terrain, right, 158 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: like you know, we okay, well, we've run out of 159 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: fossil fuels, so that's fine. We will do electric, okay, 160 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: we you know with the electric actually relies on our rares, 161 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: so that's fine. We'll find a different thing to make 162 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: batteries out of it for other than acknowledging that like 163 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: we've created a system, or we'll just go. 164 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: To space yeah yeah, yeah, and. 165 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: And trash another planet for another few hundred years. You know, 166 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: when you're driving your track and you have a lot 167 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 2: of stuff in it and it's hitting the end of 168 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: the rev counter, you know, like you're trying to pass someone, 169 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: it's bouncing. It's in the red zone. Like we've been 170 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: running in the red zone certainly from most of this century, 171 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: you know, since the Industrial Revolution, or certainly since the 172 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: end of the Second World War, and like sustainability is 173 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: a phrase that's been co opted, but like it's just 174 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: not possible to keep doing it. 175 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's really an anomaly, a blip in 176 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: our timeline, I would say, and I think ruptures in 177 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: that normal see, like the ruptural experience and now provides 178 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: an opportunity for us to you know, take an egg 179 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: at ramp to kind of control the transition, to control 180 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: our descent. But instead, you know, it seems like we 181 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: were just rapidly moving towards the more forceful transition, the 182 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: transition made so by the laws of physics, and that 183 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: transition I don't think will be nearly as pleasant as 184 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: it could be. You know. That's why a lot of 185 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: people call it collapse. And that transition is being delayed 186 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: currently with the collapse of the material resources and also 187 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: the collapse of the financial economic system. That stuff has 188 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: been delayed by rent seeking, by new frontiers of exploitation, 189 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: and by ramping up theft in parts of the world 190 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: that we're not as pillaged as other parts of the world, 191 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: or ramping up surveillance and violence to make it harder 192 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: to resist, but eventually is going to hit, you know, 193 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: and I hate that it makes me sound like a 194 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: second comment of Jesus conspiracist or something like that, just 195 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: like well, yeah, it's coming, it's coming, you know, like 196 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: like like I'm a prophet screaming into the into the streets. 197 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: But you know, it may not be some kind of 198 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: prophesiede end times, but we are approaching that point, you know, 199 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: where that sort of narrative of economic roles going back 200 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: to normal. You know, there's this big group project of 201 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: making the literature because that rise and tide will lift 202 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: all boats, you know, the this is this story that 203 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: everybody wins, that nobody will have to lose anything because 204 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: the power will just keep getting bigger. It has to 205 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: come to an end. 206 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: It's amazing how long it's lasted, right, Like certain group 207 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: of society has been able to make the rest of 208 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: society believe that the pie will just keep getting bigger 209 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: when the pie has got smaller for most people, you know, 210 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: certainly for the last few decades, but arguably you know, 211 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: like lives have become worse for us since the Industrial 212 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: Revolution in some ways. 213 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: Right exactly, And you know, people will point to improvements 214 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: in health and sanitation. Sure, you can have improvements in 215 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,479 Speaker 1: health and sanitation without all this other baggage though, yeah, 216 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: you know. Or you can have improvements in literacy without 217 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: literally poisoning our fresh water and bleaching our oceans and 218 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: killing off biodiversity by the millions of species. 219 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a like a package deal, right, Like 220 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 2: we can have vaccination against diseases without having super fun sites. 221 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: We didn't need one to make the other. It's it's 222 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: not a like this way or the Dark Ages exactly exactly. 223 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: For example, all London had to do, I mean I'm oversimplifying, 224 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: but all London had to do was stop dumping their 225 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: sewage in the Thames. 226 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a remarkable. It's 227 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: not that hard. But like just look at the disposal 228 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: of hazardous waste and the way that rather than being like, huh, 229 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: maybe we should stop making waste that will be hazardous 230 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: for centuries, for the better part of one hundred years, 231 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: we've just been finding somewhere else to put it. 232 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, just keep just keep dumping it. Yeah. Even as 233 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: a child, I was like, what are we supposed to 234 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: do with all these sense the garbage, Like, like are 235 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: we just going to keep on piling it up until 236 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: we reach the moon. 237 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's like it in San Diego. They 238 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: dump these dump it in the bay. There's a whole 239 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: part of our bay which used to be a landfill site. 240 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: And like I like to to free dive sometimes I 241 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 2: would be practicing or diving in the bay or whatever, 242 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: and like you dive down and be like, the fuck 243 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: is a barbecue grill doing on the bottom of the ocean, 244 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: And people just continue to chuck shit into the bay, right, Like, 245 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: even though we have another landfill, what we put it now? 246 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: No, but you see, games, it's like that barbecue grill 247 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: was seven dollars on TMU. Yeah right, you can't pass 248 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: up that deal, you know. 249 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then when it turns out to be absolutely crap, 250 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: it will be on our planet for longer than any 251 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: of us. But we've created a system where there's no 252 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: disincentive to buy a TMU barbecue grill, use it once, 253 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: and then throw it into the bay. And like we 254 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: can't see that that's a problem. 255 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Because of how this system is set up, 256 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: you don't have to think about, wait a second, why 257 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: is the barbecue grill seven dollars, you know who is 258 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: suffering so that this barbecue real. 259 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: Resemble Yeah, right, because they were so detached from that, right, Like, 260 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: despite being so connected, we're also so far away from 261 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: the people who the misery is a consequence of our 262 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: consumption or of the system which which makes our consumption 263 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: the way it is exactly. 264 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: And you know, instead of thinking about how we can 265 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: make society resilient, how we can reasonably and ethically and 266 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: with consideration for seven generations use the resources that we 267 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: have without endless throughput all the years, continue to chase growth, 268 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: They continue to chase progress perpetually like a cancer. Yeah, 269 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, and everybody is seeing the consequences. At this point, 270 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: the work situation is getting worse because these platforms, these 271 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: these employers are finding ways to game the laws. You know, 272 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: we're seeing shrinking margins and sit in sectors. Because when 273 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: you rely on growth, when that growth comes to an end, 274 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: there's nowhere else to grow. You have to squeeze what 275 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: there is. What's the phrase squeeze blood out of a stone. Yeah, 276 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, you have to force over work. You have 277 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: to and shittify existing services so that you can extract 278 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: more subscriptions. More pay months, more upgrades, whatever the case, 279 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: maybe the liverability of entire cities of it has been 280 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: wiped out because you know, you have ABNB and a 281 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: private companies holing out something as basic as hose in 282 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: for all, and so the pressure is to keep the 283 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: whole machine run and just how grease any long term considerations. 284 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: But like I keep saying, this normal was never sustainable. 285 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: I will say, though, when we criticize the system and 286 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: we call it out and we talk about how these 287 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: leaders are pushing things in a certain direction, they are. 288 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's easy to fall into 289 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: this notion that they are manipulating the whole thing. You know, 290 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: that they manage the system in its entirety. It's tempting 291 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: to see the system as coherent, you know, to act 292 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: like it's all piloted by one vidual or group yea 293 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: as some wise or malevolent parental figure. And you know, 294 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: these institutions, they all rely to varying degrees under the 295 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: appearance of competence. Right. But I think what recent times 296 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: has revealed is that things are a lot messier than that. 297 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: That political leaders know that they don't know, but won't 298 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: admit that they don't know, or they don't know that 299 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: they don't know, and in either case they are pretending 300 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: or believing that they have this grip on things they 301 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: can anticipate and smooth out the shocks to the system. 302 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: You know, there are those who think that if they 303 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: share the honest truth that they could trigger a panic 304 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: into populace. So they think they're doing something you know, 305 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: brave and benevolent by not giving people all the information 306 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: they need and whose yet they're failed by sharing all 307 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: the information that needed to make accurate decisions, that they 308 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: might lose investments, They might lose investors, you know, that 309 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: the economy will take a hit as a result. That's 310 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: why you have situations where like when the Texas gridfield 311 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, that the officials were insistent that 312 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: it was stable. Yeah, and so they wasn't, you know. 313 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: Or for the years the UK's hass water, it's water 314 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: infrastructure is used, continues to claim that things under control 315 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: and sewage was still getting into people's reverse. 316 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. Yeah, Like I think a lot about Flint, Michigan, 317 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 2: where the water that people have to drink to survive 318 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: is killing them. And this has been happening We've known 319 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: about did for a decade, and there have been a 320 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 2: series of politicians for both parties who have just been like, yeah, no, 321 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 2: don't worry, we've got this cupboard, and like that. We 322 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: fundamentally have not got this cupboard right. But the machine 323 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: is moving so far so no one person can can 324 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 2: stop and turn it around because the machine will just 325 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 2: bulldoze them. 326 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: Yep. It's not as steady as unstable as it puts forward. 327 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: You know. In fact that that whole image of the 328 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: system as coherent as stay as stable. I think it 329 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: also serves to keep us from defying it. Yeah, you know, 330 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: because we get this sense that yeah, this is just 331 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: like this, this behema of this all powerful love crafty 332 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: and entity that us mayle individuals can truly challenge when 333 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: there are things that we can do directly to throw 334 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, spooks in the wheel if that's the expression, you. 335 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: Know, it's something in this spooks Yeah, Spanner where sticking 336 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 2: to spokes maybe right? 337 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure? Would you say there was like a bit 338 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: secular moment when you realize that nobody actually knew what 339 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: they were doing though, Yeah, I'm trying. 340 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: To think if it was like a momental recognition for me, 341 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: or like a sort of gradual one, you know, I 342 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: think a few of the times, like you see it 343 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: a lot when you travel more, right, because the perception 344 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 2: that like we are helping here, we've got this under control. 345 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: I think with immigration it's a great example actually, right, 346 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 2: Like so I've obviously spent a lot of time with 347 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: the immigrants, and I think you see this. I remember 348 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen we had the migrant caravan, right like, 349 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: there have been many migrant caravans. This one was just 350 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: coincided with a mid term in a way that allowed 351 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: it to become like a political football, and the American 352 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 2: government is like, we are stopping them at the border 353 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: so we can check if everyone's okay, and government in 354 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: Mexico is like, well, we are taking care of them. 355 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: And get there and you're like fuck, like these people 356 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 2: haven't had water today, and like at that point, you know, 357 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: I was already sort of predisposed to thinking that perhaps 358 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 2: the state didn't have all the answers, and like to 359 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 2: be clear that Mexican states a lot more than the 360 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 2: US state in this instance and provided these people with 361 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: a place to be, which it would have been much 362 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: worse if they hadn't had that, But like it was 363 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: just this realization. I was with a few friends. All 364 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 2: of us happened at the time to be full time 365 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: bicycle people, so we didn't have jobs that needed us 366 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: to be like in a place at nine am. So 367 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 2: that realization that like, if these people are going to 368 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: get water today, it's going to be because we go 369 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: to Costco and buy all the water bottles and then 370 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: we we ride back whilst slowly destroying the suspension of 371 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: this pickup truck because we've got so much weight in 372 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: it and give them out, like because no one else 373 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: is going to right, and like there's this whole world 374 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 2: of NGOs and governments and states, so like didn't matter, right, 375 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: these people stidn't have water. 376 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of rule for direct action still, Yeah, 377 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: and the powers that be're not as competent as they 378 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: may a first glance appear. In other words, if they 379 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: say they have everything under control, don't believe them. 380 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. 381 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: I think also that instability within the system is part 382 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 1: of it, you know, it's part of how it works. 383 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: It's part of what's necessary for it to keep going. 384 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: The competitive tune of the gapitalist market, the shifts of 385 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: industries that you know, upgroove people's lives just part of 386 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: how the system operates, you know, the booms and bus 387 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: in real estate. They all always for the powers that 388 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: be to expand their wealth in some way, to expand 389 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: their regions and territories, and people, for the most part, 390 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: just go along with it. You know. Daily life is 391 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: complex as it is without having to grapple with the 392 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: full scale of all the global issues, you know, the 393 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: following the leader, just going along with what they say. 394 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: It does give you some psychological breathing room. You know, 395 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: it's hard to grapple the existential threats that we face. 396 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: I don't have time too in many cases, right, especially 397 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: when you have an administrative strategy that involves flooding the 398 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: zone with so much mess. It's so much drama, with 399 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: so many different controversies and lies and incidents, that it 400 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: feels like the best thing to do is just throw 401 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: your hands up and you up. And then I'm speaking 402 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: both from the perspective of what I'm observing in the 403 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: Trinitian government and what I'm observing in the American government. 404 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: But I see this at dude of raguns, callousness and corruption, 405 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: it's like they're not even trying to maintain a veneer 406 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: of legitimacy or intelligence or anything like that. Studies go 407 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: through the motions to provide the things that it claims 408 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: it's necessary to provide, you know, but they're feeling not 409 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: even that, and they're so cocky about it. Yeah, they're 410 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: so careless about it too. So they're smiling in your 411 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: face and lieing to you. 412 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 413 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: People do see what's happened, and they're responding in a 414 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: couple of different ways. You know. They panic, of course, 415 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: or they fall into conspiracies, or they deny that there 416 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,959 Speaker 1: is an actual problem. They continue to insist that everything 417 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: is normal, that everything is fine. If they double down, 418 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: they hustle harder, they consume more, they carry on as 419 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: if nothing's wrong. And there are those who see that 420 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: something is wrong, but they see everybody else carrying on 421 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: as if everything is fine, and so they go along 422 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: as well, you know. Or there are people, of course, 423 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: who disengage, who are burnt out to a numb who 424 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: are just drifting or going through themotions. But only a 425 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: portion have turned to challenge the concept of normal itself, 426 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: whether it is that they're experimenting with simpler living, developing 427 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: some program for survival, some strategy either for themselves, for 428 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: their household, of their community, engaging mutual support. And of 429 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: course this is only a portion of the population because 430 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: many of us like fishing water. You know, we can't 431 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: really recognize the socioeconomic structure that we are within. It's 432 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: hard to recognize what you are immersed in as a 433 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: thing itself. And some really, in seeing and reading about alternatives, 434 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: they can get a glimpse of this normalcy and question 435 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: to realize this system isn't natural or inevitable. There's an 436 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: aberration destined to decline, no matter how much we want 437 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: to believe otherwise. That the script of work, in consuming career, 438 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: in accumulating property in all is unnormal. That is actually 439 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: kind of weird, you know, like it's strange that an 440 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: entire society is dependent upon globe spanning supply chains, volatile markets, 441 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: and oriented entirely around the court, evenens of elites. You know, 442 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: it's strange that whiteness, maleness, cis, heteronous evilness are treated 443 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: as the default, the starter kit, even though only a 444 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: fraction of humanity fits in any one of those molds, 445 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: let alone the combination of all of them. You know, 446 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: it's strange that normal is so narrowly conformist with those 447 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: who don't conform, a marginalized It's strange that normal means 448 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: an illusion of independence. The disguises the webs. You will 449 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: always rely on that you can claim to be independent 450 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, well I just bought that seven dollar 451 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: grill off Timu, and not think about the the well 452 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: of relationships that brought that seven dollar grill to your 453 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: doorstep and eventually to the landfill. Yet to feel self 454 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: sufficient while the system hides the label the ecosystems logistics 455 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: and the people who them up. 456 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking now about like people whose whole thing 457 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: is being like homesteaders, but their homesteading is in itself 458 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: a performance for the global supply or like the global 459 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: market for distracting or entertainment or whatever you want to 460 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: call it, right like, And they do not exist outside 461 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: of those supply chains, like they are doing this performance 462 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: of of like independence because they are so codependent, right like, 463 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 2: Like they exist to generate like a revenue or affiliate 464 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: links or however influences make money. Sponsorship. 465 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's like one of the influencers. 466 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, like there's a guy who I remember like 467 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 2: a year ago, am because I'm like, I know broken inside. 468 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: I had gotten to an argument with someone on x 469 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: dot com. Oh yeah, this guy was like posing as 470 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: a homesteader, and like, you know, I grew up on 471 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: a farm, right, Like I've I spent lots of my 472 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 2: life around like domestic animals and around domestic like I 473 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: know how to fix things, I know what tools look 474 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 2: like when you use them, and like this guy was 475 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 2: very clearly just posing and posing a series of photos. 476 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: It just really like I don't know why that particularly 477 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: threw me for a loop, right, but like the idea 478 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: that this guy is performing performing independence for a system 479 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: he himself is reinforcing. It was just such a strange 480 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 2: thing to understand. 481 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, a system means dependent on. 482 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, a system he's entirely dependent on, like more 483 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 2: so than most of us even, right, Like like he 484 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: makes nothing other than photograph so that people look at 485 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: on their phones, Like he makes no tangible product, Like 486 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: at least if you're a you know, you could be 487 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: a cabinet maker, right and yeah, you install kitchens for 488 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: each people, but you know how to make things with 489 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: your hands. This guy just gets, you know, a saw 490 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,239 Speaker 2: that looks like I hadn't been used since the had 491 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: Wardian era and stands around for photos next to a 492 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: log in the same breath. I guess that I condemn that. 493 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 2: I feel like the way that we deal with the 494 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: end of this, it's the same way that we help 495 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: each other get through the middle of this and the 496 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 2: collapse of it. Right, Like, I've seen people do mutual 497 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: aid with such scarce resources and manage to make such 498 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: amazing things, like both in terms of like physical objects 499 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: and in terms of like these beautiful things we do 500 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: for each other were so little, and like the ingenuity 501 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: that's still there. It's not like people have forgotten how 502 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: to exist without team, right, but we just haven't created 503 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: a way a situation where we have to and in 504 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: mutual aid spaces, I sometimes feel like we already have 505 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 2: the solution to this, which is to depend on and 506 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: care for each other. It's just that we need that 507 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: to be the way we do everything, not just some. 508 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: Stuff exactly exactly. You know, the whole homestead and fantasy 509 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: is very comforting illusion and fiction in my view, because 510 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: if we're talking about going back to the land, people 511 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: who live on the land who live off of the land. 512 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: They did so in community. Yeah, you know, very very 513 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: very very rarely did someone live entirely by themselves without 514 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: contact and anyone else. Because you can't be an axe 515 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: maker and a carpenter and a cook and you know, 516 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: a farmer and a hood and all these different things, 517 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: all of these different rules. A madisone maker all these 518 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: different things at the same time. That is why we 519 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: as a species have survived and succeeded, because we are 520 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: able to share our skills with others and you know, 521 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: collectively accomplished more than the summer of our parts. 522 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fantasy. I was recently in a place 523 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 2: called Chako Kanyon. I don't know if you've if you're 524 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: familiar with Chako Kanyon at all, No, but there's this 525 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: idea I think that like pre the arrival of capitalism, 526 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: that's how indigenous people lived. And it's just not like like, yeah, 527 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: this was a large, thriving communitium. I'm interested in Chako 528 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: Kanyon because I'm interested in what you're talking about, like 529 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 2: a society which consumed at an unsustainable level and then 530 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: collapsed and what came out of it. But what came 531 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 2: out of it is what kept the working class people 532 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: in that society of life throughout it, which is helping 533 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: each other, right, Like, yeah, sure people had these little 534 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: plots where they grew grain, but also like by doing 535 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: their ceremonies, by coming together in community, they had something 536 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: which could sustain them even when the economic reality completely 537 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: changed for them. And it's like it's that part that 538 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: people forget right that they think they can. Yeah, they 539 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: think they can grow their own food. Yeah you can. 540 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: But when you need a new plow, what are you 541 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: going to do? You're going to buy a forge on TMU? 542 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: You know, like it's so detached from the way anyone 543 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: has ever lived. 544 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, and it cannot lasts. And me personally, 545 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: I would rather not wait until supply chains break down 546 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: completely and stones wipe the slate and blackouts cut ale communication. 547 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: I would rather wait for those things to create and 548 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: sustain those networks of dependence, networks of interdependence, so it's 549 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: local networks of aid and cultural practice and you know, 550 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: meeting of mutual needs. There's a saying that the sort 551 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: of hustle bros would say that your network is your 552 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: net worth and that I must concur you know, the 553 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: community support and the share resources are going to matter 554 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: a lot more than your personal purchase and power. Being 555 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: part of something is emotionally easier than carrying everything alone. 556 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: The matter now and the matter even more in the future, 557 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: as crisis makes the invisible all too visible. The normal 558 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: that we remember is an illusion, but once you've seen it, 559 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: you can't unsee. I think the departure from normal is 560 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: an opportunity or chance to make something better, to be 561 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: adaptable to the shocks that come with courage and with clarity, 562 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: and I hope that this conversation is able to put 563 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: towards what I'm sure that I'm not alone in feeling. 564 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: That's all for me today. All power to people. Peace. 565 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 566 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 567 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 568 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 569 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 2: now find sources for it Could Happen here listed directly 570 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 2: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.