WEBVTT - Ep 211 Motion Sickness: It comes in waves 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.400 My name is Christina Kopka Decker, and for as long 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:10.680 as I can remember, I have experienced motion sickness in cars, planes, boats, trains, 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.720 and theme park rides. The first time I experienced severe 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.439 motion sickness, however, was when I was sixteen years old 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.160 on a flight from Los Angeles to New York. As 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.480 soon as the plane took off, I was hit with 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:28.400 intense vertigo and nausea. Within about fifteen minutes, I began vomiting, 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.840 which quickly turned into dry heaving. For the remainder of 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.960 the six hour flight, the plane suddenly felt smaller, breathing 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:40.080 felt heavier, and my head was spinning so intensely that 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.360 it felt like it might explode. I felt overheated, overwhelmed, 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.000 and my mouth was either extremely dry or excessively watery. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:54.000 I am now thirty seven, and unfortunately this has never changed. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.880 The difficult part is that I love to travel, so 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.920 in many ways travel means excepting that I will likely 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:05.400 suffer through the journey. Over the years, I have seen 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:10.480 many specialists, including neurologists and ear nos and throat doctors. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:16.959 I have tried vestibular therapy, had CT scans, MRIs, and 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:22.360 undergone hearing tests, doctors ruled out Meneer's disease, which causes 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:27.399 symptoms similar to what I experience. Despite all of these evaluations, 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.920 no one has been able to explain why my motion 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.640 sickness is so debilitating. Even when I am the one driving, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:41.400 I sometimes experienced nausea and vertigo, especially on winding roads 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.480 or in heavy traffic, which is nearly impossible to avoid. 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.080 While living in Los Angeles. One of the worst happened 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.080 during a flight with very heavy turbulence. I was vomiting 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.280 into a sickness bag, only to realize too late that 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.680 the bag was broken at the bottom. I had to 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.520 sit there with vomit in my lap and around me 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:05.160 for a large portion of the flight because the turbulence 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.600 was so bad the flight attendants could get up to 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.720 help me. When I finally reached my destination, I usually 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.520 can't eat anything. I typically need to sleep off the 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.760 motion sickness before I feel well enough to explore the 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.240 city I traveled so far to see. The only treatment 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.919 that has consistently helped me is a combination of zofran 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.080 meclasine and a risk device that uses electrical shock therapy 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.079 kind of similar to a tens machine. Even with this combination, 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:41.640 I still experienced severe motion sickness, but it significantly reduces 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.399 my vomiting and makes travel somewhat more bearable. 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.520 Christina that thank you for sharing your story. First of all, 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.400 that sounds I mean, that sounds unimaginably. 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:40.760 I can't awful. 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.840 Sounds awful, But I'm glad that there's finally some something 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:45.920 that you're finding. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.640 Some relief, some of relief. Yeah. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.960 Yeah, but thank you again for sharing your story. We 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.000 really appreciate it. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:52.480 We do. 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:53.000 Thank you. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:54.000 Hi. 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.960 I'm Erin Welsh and I'm Erin on an update and 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:03.000 this is this podcast will kill You. Welcome to Motion Sickness. Welcome, Welcome. 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:08.920 This is one of the most universal experiences humans. 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.920 Right, I mean yeah, I guess maybe, or. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:17.400 Like the potential for universality is quite high exist just 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.640 to you know, be precise about it. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:26.600 I am really excited about this episode. And when you 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.160 proposed it, and I think that you have many times. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:31.760 Maybe like three years ago was the first time I 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:31.960 was like. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:37.680 We probably and I was like, absolutely not. And I 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.159 am thrilled that I finally said yes to it, because 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.599 it's really really interesting. 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.320 That I finally bullied you into it. I was like, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:46.560 we're doing It's on the calendar. 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:53.599 You can't it's super super interesting. Yeah, and I'm really 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:54.839 excited about it. 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:59.520 It is I like what drove me always to be 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.360 like we should do this. It's not because I knew 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.719 anything about it. It's not because I personally have experienced 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.000 a lot of motion sickness. I really know, not at all. 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:10.800 Like there was John. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:11.440 And I were. 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.720 Fishing off like it in the ocean, and it was 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:22.040 a small boat and the waves were quite choppy, and 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.799 John quickly because his eyes were focused on the rod 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.239 and not the horizon, fish and the fish and John 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.719 was within I don't know how much time scream barfing, 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:38.280 poor guy, just like just NonStop. And I was and 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:43.800 he was like, you are completely fine. Like I felt nothing. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.720 I mean I felt bad for him, but like physically. 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.760 I felt I felt nothing. Uh so, yeah, I am. 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:51.479 I am. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.320 I am one of the ones who can read in 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.080 a car and a bus, on a train, whatever, same, 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:56.719 no problem. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:01.160 Same. I can remember one time I'm feeling a little 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.640 bit motion sick and it was on day two of 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.800 a twenty two day research cruise in the middle of 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.960 the ocean. And yeah, day two, I was like a 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.799 little like, ooh, I don't think I'm gonna eat today 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.440 as much as usual. Yeah, And that was it. So 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.040 I feel very lucky that I haven't experienced a lot 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:21.960 of it, because otherwise I'm like, I'll eat an entire 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:23.719 funnel cake and then go on the tilta whorl and 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.520 be like this was the best day ever. Yeah, so 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:26.680 roller coasters. 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.400 I remember as a kid, the one time I remember 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.200 really feeling quite nauseous was like on a bus, on 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:36.640 the school bus, reading a book because I had no friends, 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.560 So I'll just read books on the school bus. 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:40.000 My little animals. 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:45.560 Yeah, and so I remember that. But but then ever 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.480 since then, which is interesting because I feel anyway we'll 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.320 get there in terms of the age distribution. 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:55.159 There's so much to cover. There's so much. I'm really 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.680 excited about it. Maybe we should start and I'm just blathering, 0:06:58.800 --> 0:06:59.440 Maybe we should. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:01.640 Maybe we we have. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:03.960 Quarantine any time, it's quarantine, ay times. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:04.440 Anytime. 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.839 What are we drinking this week? Ere we're drinking motion potion. 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:09.960 Motion potion. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:16.600 It's ridiculous and it is ginger based essentially. However, listen 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.760 to our ginger episode. Yeah, this is not curative or 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:21.080 prevented by any means. 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.320 There's also like very little data that ginger is helpful 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.440 for nausea associated with motion sickness, like particular. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.160 Yeah, this is also when I say ginger episode, I 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.360 mean health myths are health myth. Yeah, we did not 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.960 do an episode on ginger. But it's yeah, so it's 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:40.520 it's ginger ale, it's lime juice, it's mint, it's candy ginger, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.080 it's you know, a tasty little bits, really really tasty. 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.000 You can find the recipe on all of our socials 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.800 where we are This podcast will kill You, I think 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:55.559 mostly is our socials, maybe tea titles, maybe TPWKY who knows. Also, 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.760 we'll probably post it on our website, this podcast will 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.840 kill You dot com. Have you checked it out? We 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:01.280 have a whole bunch of stuff there. 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:06.160 Out the end the end website. We don't need to 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.840 go into that. We said, you know the spiel there, 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:10.880 Let's get to the good stuff. 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:40.800 Okay, yeah, right after this break, Jinks. 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.560 I actually want to start this section with a quote, 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.199 Oh my god, I do the same thing I was 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.280 gonna say, like, this is really your vibe, but I'm 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.040 stealing it a little bit. Okay, this is a quote 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.120 from a two thousand and six paper by Shoe, Pock 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.840 and Gordon, and it describes the constellation of symptoms that 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.280 we can see in motion sickness. And I really like 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:55.960 it because I think it just like sets us up 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.000 to really like picture what it is that we're talking 0:08:59.000 --> 0:08:59.559 about today. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.480 You ready, I feel like I'm gonna get sympathy nausea, 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.600 which that is something that I do occasionally get with, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.160 like am I is the dog gonna barf? 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.680 Is John barf in the boat? Yeah? Then you feel nauseous. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.880 If I smell vomit, then it will make me nauseous. 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:20.080 But away, yeah, okay, Okay, anyways, here we go. Ready, yeah, 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.640 quote the development of motion sickness. Sorry, it's kind of 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:25.680 a long quote, just so you know. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.360 Okay, Okay, I'm strapped and I'm ready. 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:33.040 Quote. The development of motion sickness symptoms follows an orderly 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.760 sequence that varies with the intensity of the stimulus and 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.280 the susceptibility of the individual. The initial symptom is usually 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:46.880 discomfort around the upper abdomen stomach awareness this quote, okay, 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:53.000 which is followed by nausea and increasing malaise. Concurrently, pery 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.520 oral that means around your mouth and facial pallor appear 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:03.040 accompanied by cold sweat. With rapid worsening of symptoms, there 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.600 can be salivation changes, feeling of body warmth, dizziness, wretching 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:12.920 and recurrent vomiting. Lethargy, fatigue, and drowsiness can persist for 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.960 hours after the motion stimulus ends. End quote. I feel 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.400 like it really walks us through what it looks and 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.400 feels like to start having motion sickness. 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.680 It does, And I have so many questions. 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.800 No, I will wait them, I will wait. 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:31.160 Yes. 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.160 I also want to mention that there's another kind of 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.880 phenomenon that we see described alongside motion sickness that's called 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.320 soapite syndrome. I think that's how you say it. And 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.479 it's this kind of like drowsiness, lethargy, like decreased cognitive 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.280 motor functions. A lot of times we see it marked 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.600 by yawning, like an increase in yawning, and this can persist. 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.560 It can start with the motion stimulus itself, and then 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.560 it can persist for like a long time after. In 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:05.800 some cases, people can also get things like eyestrain, difficulty focusing, headaches, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:11.720 and things like that. So motion sickness overall is this 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:17.840 feeling of unwellness and a lot of times nausea and 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:23.400 vomiting specifically that we get that is associated with motion 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:28.200 or movement. And like we read in all of that description, 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.960 while it very classically like nausea and vomiting and things 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.079 are like that kind of first part of the symptoms, 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:39.520 there's a really wide array of how people can present 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:44.320 with motion sickness overall. But it's not just any motion 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:51.319 that triggers motion sickness. It's specific types of motion. Because 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.640 we don't tend to get motion sick when we're walking 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.719 or running or riding a bike, but we do if 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.760 we're on a boat or a train or sitting in 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.360 the back seed of a car. And motion sickness can 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.880 also be caused by perceived motion, as in people can 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.760 get motion sickness from things like virtual reality or like 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.000 really immersive three D movie screens without moving at all. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.040 I m AX, So, what in the absolute heck is 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.400 going on causes us to get sick from movement or 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.680 the perception of movement? Perception of movement? I'm really excited 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.240 to try and tell you. That's what I'm going to 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:32.960 try and do right now, just so you know. So 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.200 first of all, we don't really know. That's just like 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.920 I'm going to say that at the front, Okay, like 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:45.120 we we think that we know. And the overall consensus 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:52.520 hypothesis idea is that there is some kind of sensory conflict, right, 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:57.640 That's what it's called between the actual sensations that you 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.600 are receiving into your brain m hm and what your 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:07.679 brain expects to be receiving. Yeah, And these conflicts can 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.760 happen between a number of different sensory systems or a 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.160 number of different of like ways that we perceive things 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.360 around us. So the main sensory systems that are involved 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.480 in motion sickness, let's dig into them a little bit, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:25.000 are the visual system, the vestibular system. Love the stipular system, 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.880 I know, it's quite exciting, and the propriaceptive system. Love 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:29.240 around a. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.719 Tocoo system, I love them all. 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.640 Listen, we're here for our sensory systems, okay. So our 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.760 visual system is obviously our eyes, right, These are perceiving 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.480 the world around us visually. They're sending the inputs that 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.080 they receive into the visual centers of our brain in 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.000 order to map out the world. I'm not going to 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.800 dig much deeper than that. Our eyes also have quite 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:56.000 a lot of reflex movements and things built in that 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.800 we are totally unaware of, such that if we turn 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:04.120 on head or experience any kind of motion, our eyes 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.600 are actually making teeny tiny micro adjustments in the opposite 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.320 direction of whatever our movement is so that our visual 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:13.800 field stays steady. 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:19.000 I learned about this recently when interviewing someone for an 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.400 episode of Advances and Care on concussion detection, because we 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.720 do not have a good system right now for diagnosing concussions, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.720 and so one of the thoughts is that, like we 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.640 can detect it potentially with these small eye movements, because 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.480 when we get a concussion sort of all of these 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.600 little all of these sensory systems are disrupted a bit, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:42.040 and so can we detect severity, intensity, duration, whatever of 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.240 a concussion with these eye movements. 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.080 It is, there's so much there. It's just really cool. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.480 It is really cool. So this like our eyes making 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.480 these little microadjustments, and it's part of what is called 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.480 the vestibulo ocular reflex. So that means that our eyes 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:03.200 are connected to our tibular system. Okay, and this is 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.880 the system that detects the position and movement of mostly 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:10.920 our head in space. It is a complex system and 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.000 we don't need to get like deep into the weeds 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.080 of it. But the peripheral parts are located in our 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:22.359 inner ears, where we have these two teeny tiny organs 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.760 called odoliths that are not just little rocks, but they're 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:31.120 actually teeny tiny little organs that detect movement, specifically in 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:35.840 the forward, backward, and the side to side direction not rotating. 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.840 And then we also have three sets of on each 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.600 ear these things called semi circular canals that are these 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.920 little fluid filled tubes arranged in different planes. They look 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.600 like I don't know, like you know those fancy French 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:58.480 cookies like Palmier's or whatever, like a grape cluster. No, no, no, 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.760 google it pick, thank you have it. Okay, they're like 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.080 little canals. Anyways, they're in our inner ears as well. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.560 They're filled with fluid and they sit at different angles 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:15.360 so they detect rotational movement. Okay, so like looking around 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.720 you rotational movement cool side to side, side, like looking 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.160 to your left, looking to your right, yeah, right, okay, okay, okay, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.479 And all of these together are semi circular canals, are otoliths. 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.480 They are involved in sensing the position and the movement 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.560 of our head, and they are obviously connected directly to 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:39.000 multiple different parts of our brain, and they are involved 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.720 in this vestibulo ocular reflex, so they're connected to our 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.600 eyes to help with these little movements, and something called 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.560 our vestibulo spinal reflex which helps us to maintain head 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:53.040 and postural stability, making these little compensatory body movements that 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.680 again we don't really notice or recognize when we are 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.400 moving our head in space. Okay. Some of the parts 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.600 of the brain that are very involved in this vestibular 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.640 system are our cerebellum, which is the bottom like back 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.879 part of our brain. I have a brain, but I'm 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:11.920 not going to reach for it because I'll knock it over. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:15.919 I have a brain. Oh yeah, there you go. It's 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.880 the bottom of the back. We see that little back, bitch, 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.240 you can't. We also then also have proper reception. Okay. 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.199 Propriate reception is our ability to know where our limbs 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.359 and other body parts are in three dimensional space. 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.600 It's such a mysterious sense. I love it. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.199 It's mostly gathered from like mechanal receptors that again we 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.800 don't recognize or notice. But there are things all around 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.760 our body that integrate into our brain to tell our 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.080 brain whether you can see it or not. You know 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:48.080 where your hands and feet are, nice k. So to 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.800 know and understand where we are in space and how 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.600 we are moving through space, our eyes, our vestibular system, 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.480 and our appropriate reception have to all work in concert, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:04.040 and they work based on kind of like maps that 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.560 we have developed in our brain by existing on the 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:12.359 Earth thus far, like, our brain knows that gravity is 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.880 a force that is always present and whose vector points 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.120 down towards the Earth right. We don't have to think 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.000 about it. We literally don't feel it, but it is 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.760 always something that our brain and our body is responding 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.240 to because it's a force that we're always exposed to. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.440 So when the system is working well, for example, we 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.320 might be walking with our eyes open. As sighted individuals, 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.760 our eyes are going to perceive that we are moving 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.240 through the world where the horizon and the stuff around 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.000 us is remaining relatively fixed right like it is, it 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:51.479 is moving past us. Our vestibular system is perceiving our 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.640 head moving through space, little tiny microadjustments are being made, 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.800 and our appropriate sective system perceives that our limbs are 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:03.240 propelling us forward. It's we're standing upright, gravity is directing downwards, 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.720 the horizon is there. Everything is great, and we experience 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.120 no sensory conflict whatsoever. Uh huh. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:09.480 Cool. 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:15.040 But however, if instead we are on a boat on 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.399 the ocean, and we are sitting inside of our cabin, 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:24.119 for example, then our vestibular system senses quite a lot 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.000 of movement, right, There's changes in velocity, there's changes in 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.600 direction as this boat is moving upon the waves. But 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.880 if we're sitting inside of our enclosed cabin, our eyes 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.280 are perceiving that the world the cabin inside the boat, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.080 or even worse, the book that we're sitting there reading 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.439 inside of the cabin inside of the boat. The boat 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.800 around us is too fixed because it's moving the same 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.119 way that our body is moving, instead of our body 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.880 moving through space like if we were walking. Yeah, does 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.720 that make sense? Yes, So those two senses, our vestibular 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.760 system and our visual in puts are in conflict, and 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.640 they're not what our brain expects to be perceiving. This 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.719 causes a cascade of hormones and neurotransmitters and things to 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.840 be released, telling our brain whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, something 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:19.040 is not right. We should panic, wow, motion sickness ensues. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:28.399 But like, okay, why is this a bad thing? Like 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.120 why is this thing? This is where? 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.480 Like and I know that it is not. Nothing has 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.280 to be good or bad. It just has to be 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.920 like our bodies don't have not evolved in this space 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:44.919 before to anticipate these changes and then get rid of 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:49.400 the conflict, de escalate the conflict. Yeah, but why does 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.360 it result in these nausea? 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.879 But why? But why? But why is a question that 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.280 we absolutely do not have an answer to, Like we 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.440 do not know why. 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:08.560 Okay, I've read some and we can talk about it 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:09.520 if you want later on. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:14.359 Like the hypothesis hypotheses, I have them, Like yeah, so 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:16.679 we yeah, we don't know why. There are a lot 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.719 of hypotheses. There's one that's like maybe we get nauseous 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.400 especially and have vomiting as a byproduct of like our 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.400 toxin defense system. I don't I don't like this one. 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.160 But yeah, no, it doesn't really have any evidence for it. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.000 It's this idea that like our vestibular system gets activated 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.280 by these movements and it triggers the same response that 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.560 we would have from exposure to toxic substances. It doesn't 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:40.640 It doesn't really make any sense. 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:42.680 You all your sensory inputs, if you have some sort 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.040 of like neurotoxin that you have ingested or consumed in 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.159 some way, then it's possible that all these different things 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.000 would be off, Your perception would be off, you would 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:51.600 be like I'd lose exact blence. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.119 It's just like the same accidental right, right, But no, 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.760 it doesn't make sense. We're discounting that one. Most of 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.520 the papers do too. It's not just us. There's also 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.480 this idea that we have just this inappropriate activation of 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:11.119 like our autonomic system, with like our vestibular system interacting 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:15.119 with our autonomic system and causing this dysfunction. There's again 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.680 not like a really clear evidence of this. There's some 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.880 thought that maybe it's just a byproduct of the proximity 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.280 of our vestibular system and these like motion detectors to 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:31.440 where our vomiting circuitry also sits like we have multiple 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.280 Sometimes people say we have a vomiting center, and that's 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.480 not quite true, but there are multiple brain areas that 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:38.280 are involved in nausea and vomiting. 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:41.280 I have never heard anyone say we have a vomiting Oh, 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:42.960 it's in a lot of the papers. 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.520 I believe you. I believe you. But but it's not 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:49.679 just one. It's like multiple parts of our brain that 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:51.480 are involved. So is it just like this kind of 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:56.359 spillover of the inputs happening to be there. I don't know, 0:22:58.320 --> 0:22:58.800 we don't know. 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:04.320 I think that, like what what seems likely is that 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:08.520 it's not an adaptive response, right, It is just something 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.480 that like sing, I mean, and maybe that's really unsatisfying, 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.400 and so we keep looking for hypotheses that make more 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.720 sense or have more give us more of an answer 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.199 or a story. But I think it could just be 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:23.040 that it's a maladaptive response to right, this thing that 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:26.359 we did not evolve experiencing. 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:30.120 Right, And it's just and it's it's this response that 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:35.520 different people get at different levels, depending on the circumstances 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:41.600 in which they're exposed to these potentially nauseogenic movements, which 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:44.320 I think is a great word. Let's talk about these circumstances. 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:46.040 Let's talk about them a little bit, because there's some 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:48.520 other ones too. Okay, So we talked already about if 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:52.359 you're sitting still, you're sitting and the world is moving 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.439 around you, but it looks like the things around you 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:56.360 aren't moving the way that you expect. So that's one 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:00.399 type of mismatch that we might see. Another that we 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:02.919 might see would be if you're again on a boat, 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.600 but you're standing out at the side and you're looking 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:09.560 over the side of the ship. Your body is moving 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:11.920 one way, your eye, your head is moving one way. 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:15.040 Your vestibular system is saying there's this kind of movement happening, 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.160 but your eyes are only seeing the waves going up 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:21.639 and down across the ship. So that's another way that 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:23.000 you might have this mismatch. 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:26.560 Was poor John, I think was yeah, exactly, poor guy. 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:28.760 It was. It was. It was brutal, it was awful, 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:30.480